IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-29
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06:45:14 <Terkhen> good morning
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07:35:45 <andythenorth> morninl
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07:43:28 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
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08:14:01 <planetmaker> moin
08:14:03 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I rather expected that reaction... as much as I don't understand it.
08:17:07 <planetmaker> sad to hear
08:17:32 <planetmaker> but it follows the "line" of not caring about inter-operability
08:19:51 <planetmaker> are we member of the AEIF? ;-)
08:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the what?
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08:32:21 <andythenorth> wtf google?
08:40:13 <Terkhen> European Association for Railway Interoperability?
08:40:58 <andythenorth> yes, but what's happened to google more importantly?
08:43:38 <Terkhen> works fine for me
08:43:53 <andythenorth> appearance has changed
08:43:59 <andythenorth> looks like something I'd design :P
08:44:05 <Terkhen> oh, that
08:44:14 * Terkhen does not like that
08:44:24 <andythenorth> I don't mind it :)
08:44:32 <andythenorth> but it's not the classic google
08:44:39 <Terkhen> I'm too used to the plain old google page, yes
08:44:49 <Terkhen> that instant search thing is already annoying enough
08:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see anything different about google
08:48:57 <andythenorth> maybe it's region specific
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09:43:43 <andythenorth> hmm
09:43:52 <andythenorth> original TTD depots don't have snow support
09:43:54 <andythenorth> lame
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09:48:28 <andythenorth> hmm
09:48:34 <andythenorth> so I shouldn't draw snow on hot things?
09:49:02 <andythenorth> so no snow on roof of aluminium plant, steel mill, forge, lime kiln, biorefinery, cement plant
09:50:31 <Ammler> andythenorth: realism sucks
09:50:43 <andythenorth> not according to the users
09:50:49 <Ammler> users sucks
09:52:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: depends on how good the heat isolation of the roof is
09:52:18 <andythenorth> sounds like realism :P
09:52:26 <andythenorth> how good is the heat isolation of 1 pixel?
09:52:33 <andythenorth> does it depend on the manufacturer of your screen?
09:52:34 <Eddi|zuHause> high :p
09:52:40 <andythenorth> and if you have crt of lcd / tft?
09:52:46 <andythenorth> of / or
09:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the best one has a CRT TV. it has lots of snow
09:53:44 <andythenorth> so we need to extend nfo
09:53:53 <andythenorth> cb 17D: check type of users display
09:54:10 <andythenorth> I will need to draw 8 levels of snow, from none-lots
09:54:14 <andythenorth> and display accordingly
09:54:18 <andythenorth> all possible I'm sure
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09:55:35 <andythenorth> Ammler: could you post your helpful 'realism sucks' principle in the FIRS thread? :P
09:56:09 <Ammler> :-)
09:58:03 <Ammler> andythenorth: people just lack of creativity, like with direction of light or wind
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10:43:14 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: any suggestion then about the track types or do we then just go for your suggested set of tracks - after all DB* sets take longer than DNF to releases ;-)
10:45:32 <Ammler> can't you use nutracks?
10:46:21 <Ammler> ah no, nml
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10:49:15 <michi_cc> planetmaker: Deciding on track types makes only sense after the whole core engine list is finished (including SBB/ÖBB and whatever else initially should be there) so we know which axle weights make sense.
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10:51:09 <planetmaker> michi_cc: somewhat. Though I even think it need not be necessarily one track set
10:51:33 <planetmaker> After all we're going to test for availability of track types anyway ... so it'll be quite compatible
10:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the intention of my schema was that one can more easily pick out which of the railtypes to take and which to leave out
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10:54:02 <planetmaker> yes, exactly
10:54:03 <Eddi|zuHause> we don't need MB's approval at all
10:54:56 <michi_cc> Looking at the current DB timeline, a usable scheme would be A, B, Be, D, De, De-highspeed. Track type C instead of D would mean introducing highspeed already in 1957, because that's the first engine with >20t axle weight.
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10:55:22 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: no, of course not. But it would have been nice to at least agree on a tracks
10:55:57 <planetmaker> because having zillions of nearly identical track type labels is eventually going to defy the purpose of the whole idea
10:55:58 <michi_cc> If it's only about the labels, Eddi's scheme is totally okay. We can always have a fallback to mb's labels.
10:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yep
10:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause> then the only problem is a future dbset wouldn't work with our track set
10:56:49 <planetmaker> yes, we can. As said, I'm in this context mostly concerned about needless introduction of nearly identical labels. Which makes in needlessly complicated in the future
10:57:01 <planetmaker> Like stupid trpical wood vs. wood cargo labels
10:57:06 <Ammler> does DB/Germany have narrow gauge?
10:57:06 <michi_cc> The current labels of DBrails only say low axle weight, high axle weight, which is not very specific.
10:57:14 <planetmaker> yes
10:57:29 <planetmaker> OHE for example and the Harzer Schmalspurbahn
10:57:35 <planetmaker> though they might not exactly be DB
10:57:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: in east germany a bit more than in west germany
10:57:52 <Eddi|zuHause> saxony has an extensive 750mm network
10:57:57 <michi_cc> We could have our track set detect DBSet and then provide the matching labels for compatibility.
10:57:59 <Ammler> we have lots of them and some are connected to city tram lines
10:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the Harzquerbahn/Selketalbahn is 1000mm
10:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and on Rügen there's also a network, but i'm not sure if it's 1000mm
11:00:03 <Ammler> do you plan to support narrow gauge?
11:00:39 <Eddi|zuHause> no plan yet, but an option
11:02:07 <planetmaker> IMHO if that's supported, only as an option, not as default.
11:02:14 <planetmaker> Similar to the epochs / regions
11:03:08 <michi_cc> Narrow gauge could even be a separate NewGRF, there's no need to put all into a single file.
11:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> narrow gauge has a problem of justifying its existence in the game. what is the advantage over standard gauge?
11:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> could do it as tram
11:04:23 <planetmaker> quite right. It could be completely separate
11:04:51 <planetmaker> probably even should. Those engines cannot mix anyway
11:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> CENS - Central European Narrowgauge Set
11:05:26 <michi_cc> Right now: nothing. But I'm thinking about a) extending the NewGRF curve speed limit control so that narrow gauge can have a higher curve speed limit than default and standard gauge a lower curve speed limit (and highspeed maybe an even lower limit), and b) infrastructure maintenance
11:05:38 <planetmaker> CNES :-P
11:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: that only works if curve limits are really low. as narrow gauge doesn't usually have high speed anyway
11:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause> 2x45° with 1 diagonal rail: 15km/h, 2x45° with 3 diagonal: 30km/h, and so on
11:10:53 <Ammler> I would wait for roadtypes ;-)
11:13:32 <michi_cc> Curve limits could be lower IMHO, even a curve with just 1 diagonal rail is already 88 km/h (or even higher per NewGRF control), which e.g. for CETS means that the only prussian engines where curve speeds matter at all are the S engines, everything else is below 88 km/h anyway.
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11:15:19 <michi_cc> Does anyone know if any of the existing railtype GRFs is using prop 11 (curve speed advantage)?
11:16:12 <Eddi|zuHause> narrow gauge could benefit from being a road/rail hybrid, i.e. being tram in cities (able to run along roads) and being rails outside cities (diagonal rails, etc.)
11:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> one thing that's especially silly with curve speeds is that they depend on train length
11:17:39 <michi_cc> Bah, Nutracks does, which doesn't make it easier.
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11:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that's always a problem with changing a "grown" spec :)
11:19:44 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but you can change that by at least the vehicle properties ("Tilt")
11:20:00 <planetmaker> and possibly by means of the railtype, too. I haven't looked at that for a bit
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11:21:35 <michi_cc> Prop 11 right now is quite useless because it is very coarse and doesn't allow decreasing at all. Decreasing is easy, just interpret it as a signed byte, but can still only change it in increments of 50% of the base curve speed.
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11:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause> proposal: set an explicit speed for one of the short curves, and then a linear factor how the longer curves behave in relation to that
11:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (linear factor may be fixed-point, e.g. 0x08 => *1.5, 0x10 => *2, 0x18 => *2.5, 0x20 => *3)
11:56:39 <Eddi|zuHause> something's not quite right there yet
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12:01:02 <Moustachio> Huh.
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12:01:07 <MNIM> better.
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12:10:14 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: That could work. I have to check out the curve speed calculation in OTTD first though, not sure how the speed is done currently.
12:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i've looked at that code once. was pure magic
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13:30:45 <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: pure magic as "WOAH WTF AWESOME" or "WTF is happening here?"
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13:32:20 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: <- meaning 2.
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13:44:15 <andythenorth> meh
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13:49:38 <planetmaker> muh!
13:49:42 <andythenorth> mah
13:49:48 <Eddi|zuHause> wau
13:49:52 <planetmaker> miau
13:50:33 <andythenorth> about settings
13:50:40 <andythenorth> I don't like them
13:50:44 <andythenorth> perhaps they could be better
13:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> combo breaker!
13:51:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth: just as you wrote: I think we agree on the 'could be better' part ;-)
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13:53:02 <andythenorth> we should do something about it
13:53:08 <andythenorth> I would suggest a 'big change'
13:53:16 <andythenorth> then everyone will all be pissed off at once
13:53:26 <andythenorth> incremental stuff will lead to months of whining
13:53:32 <andythenorth> and the possibility of reverting
13:53:39 <andythenorth> whereas a big change is so big that revert is out of the question
13:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think everybody agrees that "something" needs to be done
13:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> this is totally not the point. the question is *WHAT* should be done?
14:00:41 <__ln__> what's with the settings?
14:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> they are unweildy, too many, not very well explained, ...
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14:05:49 <__ln__> oh, that
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14:10:32 <andythenorth> we need to stop talking about settings and stop patching :P
14:11:09 <andythenorth> unrelated - I am working on other apps at the moment. I'd say spec is worth 20% at best, prototyping is worth 80% :P
14:11:44 <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you want to pick up the gui project again?
14:11:56 <andythenorth> most of my newgrfs are stalled due to boredom, or waiting on other stuff....
14:12:22 <andythenorth> FISH is stuck because I'm sick of drawing boats, and DanMacK has lost his love of spriting
14:12:29 <andythenorth> FIRS awaits nml conversion
14:12:33 <andythenorth> HEQS is done
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14:22:07 <MNIM> a bit of both, then, I suppose
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14:31:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth: in principle yes. But I fear I won't have the time in the next weeks to really get such thing off the ground
14:31:37 <planetmaker> so not before end of the year from my part, I fear
14:31:38 <andythenorth> :(
14:31:43 <andythenorth> :)
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14:34:02 <lugo> that would have been a nice tread for the bipolar smilie :):
14:34:17 <planetmaker> before that I guess I should (yet again) rework my gridlines-as-gui-option patch queue ;-)
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14:47:06 <Scuddles> When did DanMacK
14:47:25 * andythenorth assumes there is more question coming
14:47:37 <Scuddles> Sorry, there wasn't D:
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17:43:42 <Wolf01> hello
17:48:42 <andythenorth> hello
17:49:01 <Wolf01> uh, do I ping 5 minutes now?
17:49:23 * andythenorth went to the shop
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17:55:18 <planetmaker> pong @ Wolf01 ;-)
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17:58:51 <Rubidium> pang! ;)
18:01:02 <supermop__> num pang
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18:54:58 * andythenorth considers replacing FIRS glass works with TTD original printing works
18:56:11 <andythenorth> hmm
18:56:20 <andythenorth> I could repaint the opengfx version
18:56:25 <andythenorth> two birds, one stone
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19:11:16 <supermop> wait, why?
19:14:57 <andythenorth> why?
19:15:02 <andythenorth> why not?
19:16:04 <andythenorth> FIRS glass works does suck a lot
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19:58:14 <andythenorth> planetmaker: interested in a printing works replacement? :)
19:58:15 <andythenorth>
20:02:17 <Prof_Frink> Smashing.
20:02:24 <andythenorth> ain't done yet ;)
20:02:40 <andythenorth> that one would compress into about 16 colours currently :P
20:04:09 <Ammler> you don't like the ogfx version?
20:04:43 <andythenorth> you want me to answer that honestly, or diplomatically?
20:05:03 <Ammler> not at all, I guess :-P
20:05:50 <andythenorth> it's not nice to criticise other people's art :)
20:06:13 <andythenorth> when my work is criticised, it makes me more sad than it should, if I was being rational
20:06:16 <Ammler> I don't think, you would hurt zyph
20:06:40 <andythenorth> although criticism does make me work harder sometimes
20:06:57 <Ammler> you critism yourself the most :-P
20:07:28 <andythenorth> arp
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20:44:28 <frosch123> night
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20:59:13 <V453000> andythenorth: just dont make FIRS look like opengfx please :)
20:59:25 <andythenorth> ok
20:59:36 <andythenorth> a user request I can happily meet
20:59:38 <andythenorth> ;)
20:59:44 <V453000> :P
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21:04:46 <andythenorth> compare & contrast:
21:05:52 <Ammler> andythenorth: V453000 has no clu
21:05:59 <Ammler> don't listen to beer
21:06:32 <XeryusTC2> instead listen to the voice of reason: Ammler!
21:06:56 <V453000> andythenorth: I guess we can agree which one is better :P
21:07:04 <andythenorth> which one? :P
21:07:08 <Ammler> ah, say hi to most used highlight :-P
21:07:33 <V453000> the not-opengfx one of course :P
21:07:46 <andythenorth> are you sure that's not beer talking?
21:07:54 <V453000> quite
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21:08:14 <Ammler> he can't talk without
21:10:45 * andythenorth is not going to repaint whole of opengfx :P
21:12:02 <Ammler> your sprites are too good for ogfx
21:13:19 <Ammler> then we couldn't have those nice talks anymore, which base graphics are nicer :-)
21:15:38 <andythenorth> hmm
21:15:46 <andythenorth> I could probably redraw some part of opengfx
21:20:28 <andythenorth> how do I get latest opengfx?
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21:27:13 <andythenorth> opengfx isn't on bananas?
21:27:20 <Ammler> andythenorth: as the master of the devzone, you do not really ask that?
21:27:37 <andythenorth> I can compile the checkout I have
21:27:43 <andythenorth> I just wondered how other people would get it
21:27:46 <Ammler> it is also on bananas
21:28:02 <Ammler> or as distro package on linux or via windows installer
21:28:10 <Ammler> just osx user have troubles
21:28:31 <andythenorth> ok I find it
21:28:39 <andythenorth> I was looking in wrong bananas
21:28:52 <Ammler> yeah, it isn't a newgrf :-P
21:37:21 <andythenorth> oops :m
21:39:30 <andythenorth> night
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21:58:54 <Terkhen> good night
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22:10:09 <lord-carlos> Hi
22:10:47 <lord-carlos> how can i connect two towns by bus?
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22:11:38 <lord-carlos> It wont let me do it the way it works with two busstations in the same town
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22:17:28 <lord-carlos> mhh, i think it's just too much apart?
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22:19:10 <Ammler> lord-carlos: you play yacd?
22:19:58 <lord-carlos> what is yacd?
22:20:51 <lord-carlos> just installed openTTD today
22:22:24 <lord-carlos> man i suck at this game
22:25:29 <lord-carlos> i build another station, busfrom town to town works now
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