IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-13
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00:00:17 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the path signal has a quite big penalty, so the distance is very small
00:00:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the limit does not apply to manual depot orders
00:01:11 <Elvang> Shouldn't they still path to one of the depots if their overdue for servicing, even if all the depots have path signals infront of them?
00:01:16 <glx> IIRC it doesn't apply to service orders either
00:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Elvang: no, the limit prevents them from choosing any of the depots
00:02:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Elvang: just increase the limit.
00:02:57 <Elvang> That'd send the entire fleet to depots regardless whether they need servicing or not, wouldn't it?
00:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought you could change pathfinder limits even as client
00:03:27 <glx> no service orders are for service :)
00:03:58 <Elvang> Oh, you meant in the orders list
00:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Elvang: "Go To" and ctrl+click on the depot
00:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, in the orders list
00:05:09 <Elvang> Gah, so I'll have to select all my depots on this path?
00:06:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you're better off just using no path signals
00:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> they're silly there anyway
00:06:37 <Elvang> It opens my route up to crashes :(
00:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant: no signal at all
00:07:25 <glx> depots have internal signal
00:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you know this problem when a cat leaves, and you have enough hair leftovers to build another cat?
00:11:53 <joho> oh, so THAT's how kittens are made?
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01:20:53 * Democracy ***GENERAL STRIKE 6/15/11***SOLIDARITY***
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01:22:55 * Democracy ***GENERAL STRIKE 6/15/11***SOLIDARITY***\
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06:14:04 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22573 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Fix (r22567): Fix operator precedence.
06:28:45 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22574 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix (r22566): GetGRFID was using a wrong return type.
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07:01:37 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22575 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.h: -Fix (r22574): Compilation error.
07:35:04 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22576 /trunk/Makefile.msvc: -Add: bundle_pdb command to put the pdb into the bundles directory as well
07:43:50 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22577 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: MSVC64 compile warning
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08:27:14 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22578 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix: another MSVC compile warning
08:28:31 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22579 /trunk/Makefile.msvc: -Fix (r22576): copy-paste error :(
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09:27:03 <orudge> michi_cc: mmh, I'll have to see if there's something I can do to rectify that
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09:46:40 <frosch123> Terkhen: planetmaker: hgnmu128 is right, there should be a page about the structure of the pages
09:47:15 <Terkhen> yes, but we are mostly converting old to new now
09:47:16 <frosch123> VarAction2Vehicles, Action0General and Action0(Vehicles) are already different :)
09:47:43 <frosch123> Terkhen: one uses (Introduction, Properties, Comments) on toplevel
09:47:50 <frosch123> the other uses Introduction Properties, Description
09:47:56 <frosch123> and the third does not use any at all
09:48:39 <frosch123> oh, Action0RoadVehicles is also different
09:48:47 <frosch123> it has no Introduction, but something else
09:48:56 <Terkhen> right now I was not thinking much on style, just on legibility
09:49:09 <Terkhen> just blind conversion of lost format
09:49:18 <planetmaker> that's what I mostly did, too
09:49:26 <planetmaker> But... Let's come up with a style
09:49:35 <Terkhen> but doing right it from the starts sounds like less headaches later :P
09:49:37 <frosch123> yes, but it is not obvious what to turn in to headings, as that works different in tiki
09:50:41 <Terkhen> the original pages did not follow the same style either, so we will need to change things as we convert
09:52:26 <planetmaker> quite. For the (already) "fixed" action0 pages I used a semi-automatic fix script
09:53:36 <planetmaker> with sed -f wikised.txt filename > output
09:54:44 <frosch123> "= Properties =" would be replaced by "= Syntax =" for other actions
09:55:01 <frosch123> which only states the formal syntax without description
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09:56:09 <Terkhen> interesting script :)
09:57:03 <Terkhen> frosch123: looks nice :)
09:57:28 <frosch123> planetmaker: what does 'd' do? i only know 'D'
09:57:52 <planetmaker> D is a multi-line thing IIRC
09:58:12 <planetmaker> which deletes also...
09:58:32 <frosch123> ah, i see, same difference as p and P
09:58:41 <frosch123> D only deletes up to \n, d deletes everything
09:59:15 <planetmaker> frosch123: you seem to be somewhat proficient with multi-line, I haven't yet figured it: I need to replace \n|- by |-
09:59:24 <planetmaker> but I didn't yet manage
09:59:39 <planetmaker> and would help also quite a bit ;-)
09:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause> vi can do that ;)
10:00:06 <planetmaker> with \n = newline character
10:00:25 <planetmaker> and I do not want to type that everywhere, but it needs to be a script
10:00:51 <Eddi|zuHause> how to use vi non-interactively is left as an exercise to the reader :p
10:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i always wanted to find that out, but never was in the mood to
10:01:36 <Terkhen> I guess that stuff like variational action 2 variables and action 0 properties would need their own format too
10:02:02 <frosch123> planetmaker: i guess just insert a N at the top
10:02:04 <planetmaker> Terkhen: for varaction2 the only difference to action0 is IMHO s/properties/variables/
10:02:08 <frosch123> and replace all D with N
10:02:36 <planetmaker> frosch123: I don't use a D anywhere :-P
10:02:39 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: batch-vim == sed :)
10:02:41 <Terkhen> varaction2 also has a "format" field and a table explaining it
10:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but sed is line-based, it would naturally have trouble with multiline-stuff
10:03:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: vi is the only program i have ever found that can do 's/\n\n/\n/'
10:03:56 <Alberth> it gets somewhat tricky yes :) it does have an internal buffer though
10:04:10 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: '/^$/ D' trivial
10:05:01 <frosch123> you want to exactly half the empty lines? :p
10:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i meant this as the smallest example i could think of. there are more complicated ones i tried to do in the past
10:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and i couldn't get them to work with sed
10:09:00 <planetmaker> great frosch123 :-)
10:10:01 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22580 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/run.sh: -Change: make 'make regression' return an error when it fails
10:12:04 <planetmaker> actually, Terkhen, if properly defined, we don't need to define a table class
10:12:17 <planetmaker> thus you can leave out that piece
10:12:23 <Terkhen> oh, that would be nice :)
10:12:55 <planetmaker> works already ;-)
10:13:42 <planetmaker> while I was sleeping I must have magically learnt how to use firebug - and then it was dead easy to get it right
10:14:41 <planetmaker> Terkhen: table headings are best used ! and !! instead of | and ||
10:14:58 <planetmaker> you can write one line of a table in one text line if you separate entries with || or !!
10:15:13 <planetmaker> that makes sources IMHO easier to read
10:15:33 <Terkhen> hmm... if I remove class="wikitable" from VarAction2Advanced tables, they revert to the old, no borders format
10:16:00 <planetmaker> ^ I guess... just define style there
10:17:37 <planetmaker> and if we have something which repeatedly needs a formating different from default, give it a separate class name
10:17:55 <planetmaker> that class can then be given the required attirbutes in the common.css
10:20:41 <planetmaker> Terkhen: frosch123, orudge one needs to look out very careful for pages which contain formula like Action0Trains. There the conversion obviously "ate" a number of subsequent properties. I fixed that there, of course, but watch out :-)
10:21:49 <planetmaker> Terkhen: refresh?
10:22:00 <planetmaker> My tables w/o style all have a border...
10:25:49 <frosch123> planetmaker: what are Action2 properties? :p
10:26:48 <frosch123> planetmaker: updated that page, did you mean that?
10:27:00 <frosch123> Action2 -> VarAction2
10:27:07 <frosch123> Properties -> Variables
10:28:08 <planetmaker> thanks for the fix
10:32:07 <Terkhen> tables are corrected, now I'll correct the style :P
10:33:48 <planetmaker> I added a table style to the style page... I guess it could be default. Might not make sense everywhere, though I used it everywhere so far, but there are two tables where it doesn't look too nice.
10:35:10 <Terkhen> IMO callbacks should be organized as varaction2 and action0 are organized
10:35:21 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22581 /trunk/Makefile.msvc: -Add: 'make regression' support to Makefile.msvc
10:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> imho "callbacks" should be split between the features they apply to
10:37:05 <frosch123> animation callbacks are the same for all features, just different numberas
10:37:23 <Terkhen> those could go to a common page, as done for common vehicle properties now
10:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and one thing that was missing from the old wiki (or that was impossible to find) was a page "default vehicle properties"
10:38:21 <frosch123> Yes, there should be general pages about Animation, Spritelayouts with bounding boxes and such. but that is something for later :)
10:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and same with industries
10:39:14 <planetmaker> hm... Terkhen frosch123 about version limitations: with table classes it's possible to hide by default that row, but unhide it upon reader request
10:39:30 <frosch123> planetmaker: imo something for later
10:39:31 <planetmaker> but doint that with the default table style might not be a good choice
10:39:49 <planetmaker> frosch123: yes. But we then should use now NOT use the default but *some* style
10:40:04 <Terkhen> yes, I agree that changing callback organization is secondary right now :)
10:40:16 <frosch123> imo explicit revisions are something for the detailed description, the summaries should have some icon-tags ("ottd 0.6", "ottd 1.1", "ttdp 2.0", "ttdp 2.5", "ttdp 2.6")
10:40:36 <Terkhen> how old is last ttdp stable?
10:40:47 <planetmaker> older than I am around here
10:40:56 <orudge> Terkhen: 2003-ish, I think
10:41:05 <frosch123> 2.0 is October 24, 2003:
10:41:21 <Terkhen> then saying "ttdp 2.6" does not says much
10:41:22 <frosch123> 2.5 beta 9 is October 29, 2006.
10:41:23 <orudge> in comparison, tt-forums was launched in October 2002
10:41:33 <frosch123> Terkhen: "ttdp 2.6" means nightly
10:41:43 <Terkhen> that should work I guess
10:41:47 <frosch123> just like "ottd 1.2" would mean nightly
10:42:19 <planetmaker> well, my question was rather: should we use a separate table class for properties and variables?
10:42:27 <planetmaker> even if means nothing now?
10:42:45 <frosch123> planetmaker: i guess that is also changeable later
10:43:04 <frosch123> but i do not know about table classes :) so, if it is easy, just add it :)
10:43:35 <planetmaker> it just means to add a class="classname" to a table
10:44:01 <planetmaker> then the classname's style can be changed w/o source edits anywhere except the css
10:44:17 <planetmaker> including collapsing / showing columns etc - IIRC.
10:44:24 <planetmaker> I'm just learning this stuff atm, too
10:46:01 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22582 /trunk/src/cargopacket.cpp: -Fix: Don't increment STL iterators after they've been invalidated.
10:46:34 <planetmaker> I just wonder whether it can be avoided for (some) tables to be followed by a 2nd table stating the version for half the lines in the preceeding table
10:48:39 <Terkhen> planetmaker: adding a class makes sense :)
10:48:49 <Terkhen> and I would worry about stuff like versions later, once that everything is converted properly
10:50:26 <planetmaker> ok. Classes: a0prop and a2var?
10:50:45 <planetmaker> (rest default as now)
10:51:17 <peter1138> duplicating the newgrf specs?
10:51:50 <Terkhen> moving them to a new home :P
10:52:04 <peter1138> those tables need some padding :S
10:52:48 <planetmaker> peter1138: yes, style will be adjusted when the big conversion issues are gone
10:52:54 <planetmaker> Feel free to play with it, though
10:53:28 <peter1138> i don't think i have access to the stylesheets
10:53:29 <planetmaker> I suggest to install firebug - then you can test all locally on one of those pages, live editing the used CSS
11:04:36 <planetmaker> you can still find out a good CSS style, though. I'll then be happy to implement it, if you tell me
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11:13:06 <planetmaker> orudge: are the images also imported. And if so: what's their path / name wrt the originals?
11:13:16 <orudge> planetmaker: no, you'll have to pull those over manually
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11:13:37 <peter1138> heh, well, change the padding: 0; to padding: 0 5px; is enough to the tables look better
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11:31:11 <planetmaker> frosch123: Terkhen seems, we should grante sections generally one = more... or the primary ones have the same size as page title...
11:32:03 <frosch123> isn't that configurable somewhere?
11:33:50 <planetmaker> I just found that in the mediawiki descriptions on "how to use"...
11:36:18 <frosch123> oh, ok, when that is the official way...
11:36:23 <frosch123> then it is ok for us
11:39:22 <frosch123> added padding as suggested by peter
11:40:20 <orudge> michi_cc: you should now be able to log into tt-wiki and the grf wiki
11:42:53 <planetmaker> hm... what about style for code / examples...
11:53:07 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: frosch * r22583 /trunk/src/newgrf_storage.cpp: -Fix [FS#4640] (r22551): Allocate _changed_storage_arrays on the heap, so the point of destruction is well defined ('never' for now).
11:56:39 <JVassie_> didnt realise you were discussing wiki in here :)
11:57:31 <frosch123> planetmaker: do you have an updated sed script for conversion?
11:57:57 <frosch123> and orudge: is there some way to automatically run that over all pages?
11:58:02 <planetmaker> yes / no. it's two-stage, now, frosch123
11:58:04 <JVassie_> orudge, is there the possibility of addign a 'todo' list? Seen them on wiki sites before, though not sure if they were mediawiki
11:58:16 <frosch123> JVassie_: what kind of list?
11:58:17 <planetmaker> Just adding your change to my script failed. Thus called twice within a bash file:
11:58:27 <JVassie_> a todo list, ie a list of thigns to be done
11:59:07 <orudge> frosch123: I believe one can get and install mediawiki bots, but I'd rather not do that at this precise moment. I'd probably manage to obliterate everything. :p
11:59:31 <frosch123> i just kind of doubt anyone would do the work for ttdpatch manual :p
11:59:42 <orudge> it's my intention to do that, at least to start
11:59:56 <orudge> do you have a link to your script?
12:00:17 <planetmaker> it's crude but does its job mostly.
12:01:00 <planetmaker> copy source into file. Run script. Edit output, mainly replace the \n|- which remain from links by nothingness and fix code / example style
12:01:09 <planetmaker> and then paste back output into wiki
12:01:36 <frosch123> planetmaker: what is "/''''/d" for?
12:01:48 <frosch123> isn't it kind of risky to delete a whole line with that?
12:02:04 <planetmaker> Removing the first line which is a repetition of the title
12:02:18 <planetmaker> maybe risky, but I don't think that text format exist elsewhere
12:02:49 <planetmaker> without that line you have nearly two identical first lines
12:03:04 <planetmaker> one formated that way, the other as =...=
12:06:53 <planetmaker> this script is written on a "worked so far without big mistakes basis. No guarantee for other pages" ;-)
12:08:21 <planetmaker> JVassie_: I recon the TODO is currently longer than the DONE list ;-)
12:09:35 <George> orudge> small team in #openttd working on tidying up the specifications
12:09:48 <George> Let me know who tis team is?
12:09:56 <orudge> George: they're right here
12:10:13 <planetmaker> hm... the script currently doesn't get right the section level
12:10:21 <George> I just want to know, how many are they
12:10:27 <Yexo> orudge: if you enable the API one can run bots from anywhere, at least for accounts with the bot flag set
12:10:34 <frosch123> George: everyone here is only working on the specs
12:10:47 <George> and do they have any plan about what whoould they do and wnen?
12:10:49 * orudge is looking at the TTDPatch manual just now
12:10:52 <Yexo> currently I run such a bot occasionally for the openttd wiki to manage the links between translated versions of the same page
12:11:17 <planetmaker> Yexo: that might be useful... running a bot on all (not touched) pages with a script similar to what I just posted
12:12:13 <George> frosch123: me doubts that you would fix the ECS section :))
12:12:41 <planetmaker> that's right. The ECS section goes though not to the newgrf spec wiki but the general tt-wiki
12:13:20 <George> For me NEWGRF wiki is a part of tt-wiki
12:13:20 <planetmaker> there's both, newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net and tt-wiki.net. Yes, they're separate
12:13:43 <planetmaker> they're separate wikis, though
12:13:59 <George> they can have different URLs, but they are a part of one project
12:14:00 <planetmaker> though, of course, they may and should be linked where appropriate
12:14:23 <JVassie_> depends on the definition of project, really
12:14:31 <George> But I started with the other questin
12:15:05 <George> WHO is the team working on tiding the new wiki? How many are them?
12:15:29 <planetmaker> those who volunteer to spend time on it
12:15:36 <JVassie_> there is no fixed team George
12:15:58 <planetmaker> and there was no dicision made anytime that you you and you do the work
12:16:16 <JVassie_> orudge, is it worth linking to the todo list from the 'links' section on the left hand side?
12:16:27 <orudge> JVassie_: could be for now, or at least on the main page
12:16:39 <planetmaker> and actually also the style guide
12:16:42 <JVassie_> i presume only an admin can edit the links section
12:17:15 <JVassie_> the main page has a logn list of grfspecs information, probably best to keep it seperate i guess
12:17:31 <frosch123> JVassie_: there is a wiki section
12:18:17 <planetmaker> np. If you can do it, I don't have to :-P
12:18:18 <frosch123> planetmaker: not everyone can edit that :)
12:18:26 <planetmaker> ok... if you can't, I will :-)
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12:19:03 <frosch123> JVassie_: i do not understand the TODO list :s
12:19:29 <JVassie_> there is definitely room for discussion on its layout and use
12:19:50 <frosch123> do you want to put wiki pages on it, which somone is working on ?
12:19:59 <planetmaker> that should be part of the style page then or its talk one
12:20:17 <planetmaker> Yexo: how is that script called? Just python scriptname?
12:20:28 <frosch123> currently you work 5 - 15 minutes on a page, what's the point on noting you are working on it
12:20:29 <Yexo> yes, but you need the pywikipedia framework
12:20:34 <JVassie_> How do you think it would be best to use the todo list then? Just a large unordered list?
12:20:47 <planetmaker> hm... right. How do I install that python framework?
12:20:48 <frosch123> i guess it is too early for that
12:21:15 <planetmaker> oh it has an svn... hm, page bottom tells me :-P
12:21:21 <JVassie_> i wasnt intending to use it as svn
12:21:40 <JVassie_> more a means for people to chuck their thoughts/ideas/etc down for others to see#
12:21:55 <JVassie_> also giving those who wish to contribute an idea of what needs doing
12:22:36 <planetmaker> JVassie_: currently it mostly need fixing all pages for syntax and checking for correctness that no content got lost
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12:22:59 <JVassie_> i would guess so yeah
12:23:30 <frosch123> JVassie_: anyway, added
12:23:51 <frosch123> it might come at hand somewhen, even if not now :)
12:24:14 <JVassie_> as planetmaker said, the majority of the work now is syntax edits and checking content
12:24:29 <Yexo> that includes the python file I linked earlier
12:26:39 <planetmaker> the "bot" itself?
12:31:44 <JVassie_> Ill get to work on the cargotypes page :D
12:32:38 <frosch123> JVassie_: as a hint, you should always compare the page to the original at ttdpatch.net
12:32:50 <JVassie_> Thanks, got it open in adjacent tab :)
12:32:52 <frosch123> sometimes whole paragraphs are missing in the conversion
12:33:17 <frosch123> currently i am working on industry default props
12:33:25 <frosch123> there are two screens of tables missing
12:46:43 <frosch123> refresh your caches
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12:49:47 <George> Is it possible to put the image from the other site in text on new wiki?
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12:51:12 <orudge> George: they'll need to be reuploaded
12:52:03 <George> that means in case the image change in the source it has to be reuploaded?
12:56:55 <George> orudge> For more complex pages, you may wish to use this script with this data file to try to tidy up the page first.
12:57:08 <George> Can there be a script to fix tables?
12:57:23 <orudge> George: well, I believe that script does that, to some degree. planetmaker is the one who worked on it, he can maybe help you with it
12:58:11 <orudge> brb anyway, going to get some lunch
12:59:02 <planetmaker> well, the script needs bash currently
12:59:45 <Terkhen> would it be possible to do a small helper page that applies the script to a text?
13:00:39 <planetmaker> Terkhen: rather I'd suggest to take yexo's translation's script and run it as python script
13:00:52 <planetmaker> mostly it needs replacing the translation routine by the regex found in my script
13:01:11 <Terkhen> hmm... will it break corrected pages?
13:01:18 <planetmaker> I'm not very skilled at python, thus it might take long(er)
13:01:33 <planetmaker> you'd point it to the pages you want fixed.
13:01:41 <planetmaker> that's how I understand it.
13:02:12 <planetmaker> If *someone* would modify that python script to run regex defined somewhere in there, I'll happily also continue with making the regex better.
13:02:21 <planetmaker> Maybe Alberth is out of work :-P
13:02:45 <Terkhen> so... you add a mark to a page and it gets automatically converted? sweet :)
13:03:01 <planetmaker> or yexo still has the time. Not all regex, but just that it can be adopted?
13:03:11 <planetmaker> Terkhen: like that, yes
13:04:53 <George> > so... you add a mark to a page and it gets automatically converted? sweet :) <- and why it is not done for all the pages?
13:06:29 <George> planetmaker: Can you apply the script to all the ECS pages?
13:06:34 <planetmaker> George: because that script simply doesn't yet exist
13:06:59 <George> orudge: <George> that means in case the image change in the source it has to be reuploaded? <- so what? It should?
13:07:34 <George> planetmaker: script simply doesn't yet exist <- let me know when it would run :)
13:09:05 <JVassie_> 2nd and 3rd liens of what sorry?
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13:14:37 <Alberth> planetmaker: what do you need?
13:15:30 <planetmaker> Alberth: I need basically an adoption of yexo's wiki bot to just throw some regex on the page source - and post the modified source again
13:15:44 <planetmaker> his bot fixes the translation cross-link in our openttd wiki currently
13:15:56 <planetmaker> I've an idea how to adopt it...
13:16:00 <George> 2nd and 3rd liens of what sorry?- of the page
13:16:24 <JVassie_> Still dont understand you George
13:17:08 <planetmaker> the python script he runs is then openttd_translations.py
13:17:37 <planetmaker> which I'd base this new wiki bot on...
13:18:55 <Alberth> planetmaker: sounds complicated, I have never done anything web :p
13:19:14 <George> as you can see on the page copy, line (they got numbers 3 and 4) are the same. why?
13:19:21 <planetmaker> :-) Nor did I. But as it looks that framework does nearly everything for you
13:19:29 <orudge> George: do you mean images that are currently uploaded to the TTDPatch wiki? You'll need to copy them over. If you want to change them, then you can upload a new version to replace the existing one.
13:19:31 <planetmaker> and all which basically needs doing is probably in the diff
13:19:47 <planetmaker> just in the proper way to not translate stuff but just do *something* with the text
13:19:58 <JVassie_> Looks just fine to me, no duplicate lines
13:20:08 <George> orudge: no, uploaded to the differnt places
13:20:35 <orudge> I don't think that's currently allowed in the new wiki, it may be possible to enable it, but it would depend what it is, I suppose. It's generally better to have everything uploaded locally if possible.
13:22:17 <George> orudge: better to have everything uploaded locally if possible <- that means one more task to control for updates and fixing wiki. Can't say that is the easiest solution
13:22:35 <orudge> well, I can look into what can be done later on
13:22:39 <George> We already have the same problem with GRFs
13:22:58 <orudge> I'm sure it should be possible to enable external images
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13:23:12 <George> uploading them both to bananas and the site is not the handy task
13:25:16 <George> Looks just fine to me, no duplicate lines - can someone else check that?
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13:39:58 <Qantourisc> Does anyone know a nice multiplayer server ?
13:41:06 <planetmaker> for certain definitions of 'nice': yes
13:41:24 <Ammler> Qantourisc: prefixes "!" are quality signs, the more a server name has, the better
13:41:42 <Qantourisc> For some reason ... i doubt that
13:42:09 * Terkhen only knows spanish ones and openttdcoop :P
13:42:26 <Qantourisc> I don't think i'll be allowed on a openttdcoop server :)
13:42:33 <planetmaker> why do you think so?
13:42:39 <Qantourisc> Crashes 2 trains today :)
13:42:53 <TWerkhoven> welcome server allows everyone their own company
13:42:53 <Qantourisc> also, tomutch of an investment on my side
13:42:54 <planetmaker> our servers are open to everyone who plays by our rules
13:42:59 <TWerkhoven> you can crash trains all day if you want
13:43:07 <planetmaker> and the welcome server is a sort-of sandbox one.
13:43:55 <Ammler> the passworded servers have just "dummy" protections, but theoretically everyone can join (passwords are somewhere public()
13:45:14 <planetmaker> the PWs just make sure to avoid complete anonymity
13:45:44 <Ammler> which is needed for cooperation
13:47:11 <Chris_Booth> some passworded servers are invite only
13:47:21 <Chris_Booth> but I am not sure how you would ever get and invite
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13:49:09 <Qantourisc> i have a hard time enjoying anything lately
13:50:17 <Chris_Booth> Qantourisc: are you a cynical person?
13:59:16 <Ammler> Chris_Booth: I was speaking about the coop passworded servers
13:59:52 <Chris_Booth> coop only has 1 public passworded server IIRC
14:02:14 <planetmaker> I hope you didn't do all that in the browser?
14:02:42 * planetmaker found it always easier to copy stuff to a good text editor, do changes there and paste back
14:02:54 <planetmaker> better search & replace tools there :-) yep
14:03:24 * orudge is working his way through the TTDPatch manual
14:03:31 <orudge> for the 2 people who may want to use it ;)
14:03:45 <Ammler> planetmaker: ff has extensions to transfer textareas to editor
14:05:20 <Ammler> planetmaker: It's all Text!
14:06:09 <Ammler> (yes, that's the name)
14:12:29 <planetmaker> looks useful. Thank you :-9
14:17:16 <JVassie_> do some of the rows in the table look like theyre missing lines?
14:17:27 <JVassie_> eg bwteen URAn and VEHI
14:18:42 <planetmaker> but... I'd suggest to change the FIRS background colour to a light blue. Currently the text is unreadable
14:19:26 <planetmaker> like medium blue on dark blue is approx. as bad as dark green on dark red
14:19:27 <JVassie_> doesnt change the link colour
14:19:44 <JVassie_> its supposed to be white text
14:20:19 <JVassie_> there are plenty of #FFFFFF 's in there :D
14:21:53 <JVassie_> mind you, the ECS text is supposed to be black too
14:21:57 <JVassie_> rather than 'link blue'
14:22:24 <planetmaker> hm, yes. links have a separate style
14:22:51 <JVassie_> for example being one of the lines that has an ECS box
14:23:09 <JVassie_> theyre color: black not link: black
14:24:53 <peter1138> yikes, you're setting a style on each one?
14:25:26 <peter1138> you've heard of... classes... right?
14:26:06 <confound> they're things to take to learn stuff!
14:27:27 <planetmaker> indeed... it might be an idea, JVassie_ to give those a class on their own... make that table a separate class and define the style
14:29:26 <Mazur> Oooer, how lovely, that's three games with a loop mounted iso image playing without complaining about missing cdroms, now. No more unnecessary CD switiching every time I want to play another one for 10 minutes, anymore!
14:54:28 <JVassie_> peter1138, good plan :D
14:54:36 <JVassie_> im not used to wiki editing
14:54:51 <JVassie_> i dont assume HTML can be used automatically :p#
14:55:19 <JVassie_> find and replace helps in that matter
15:23:22 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: yexo * r22584 /trunk/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Add: [NoAI] several functions to AICompany to find out performance information (Morloth)
15:23:34 <JVassie_> perhaps with the new wiki
15:23:55 <JVassie_> it will give the more advanced NFO devs an excuse to write soem more in depth tutorials for the wiki :D
15:26:02 <Terkhen> IMO the grfspecs should have links to tutorials and code examples in the normal wiki
15:30:05 <Terkhen> what was the license used for the ttdpatch wiki?
15:30:45 <orudge> As far as I can tell, there is no specific licence. However, much of the content came from the TTDPatch documentation, which as part of TTDPatch would be GPL, I guess.
15:30:55 <JVassie_> shouldnt NFO related tutorials be a part of the grf specs?
15:31:09 <JVassie_> rather than linked seperately?
15:31:18 <orudge> JVassie_: I believe the intention of the separate wiki was that the specs should stand alone
15:31:19 <Terkhen> JVassie_: because I'm concerned by the last post on the announcement thread of the tt-wiki
15:31:24 <orudge> with examples, etc, in tt-wiki.net
15:31:29 <Terkhen> and yes, IMO the specs should stand alone
15:31:46 <JVassie_> havent read the thread for a few hours
15:31:50 * JVassie_ wonders off to check
15:32:48 <orudge> at any rate, the TTDPatch manual and the GRF specs are being migrated to the new wiki
15:33:01 <orudge> if he wants to throw his toys out of the pram, that's up to him
15:33:16 <orudge> ECS would seem to be his work
15:33:21 <orudge> he can set up his own wiki with tikiwiki for that if he wants
15:33:37 <JVassie_> didnt he write it under the T&Cs of the old wiki
15:33:41 <JVassie_> which would have been GPL?
15:33:47 <orudge> JVassie_: well, it's not explicitly stated.
15:33:51 <orudge> but the TTDPatch manual was GPL
15:33:53 <Terkhen> yes, that's why I'm asking about those terms but I don't find anything
15:34:52 <Rubidium> orudge: but then you can't say it's GFDL on tt-wiki
15:35:38 <Yexo> Terkhen: the spec part is factual information, there is very little (if any) "creative content" there, so that should be safe
15:36:05 <Yexo> if mb desperately wants his own pages somewhere else, let him do it
15:36:16 <Yexo> he's just making it harder and harder for people to find dbset
15:37:13 <Yexo> and there is no reason to allow editing the old wiki at all, even if that's what mb wants
15:37:32 <Yexo> orudge: perhaps now would be a good time to add a very specific notice about the license to the new wiki?
15:37:38 <Yexo> to prevent this kind of trouble in the future
15:37:56 <orudge> I'm just working on a reply to MB
15:37:57 <Terkhen> I have seen a link about the license while editing
15:42:49 <JVassie_> <Yexo> he's just making it harder and harder for people to find dbset
15:42:52 <JVassie_> which is a damn shame IMO
15:43:08 <JVassie_> as dbset is definitely among the top of the 'train' newgrfs
15:45:12 <orudge> "This program and the accompanying documentation"
15:45:21 <frosch123> "*) Note that other people have contributed code and graphics, and they generally own their contributions themselves."
15:45:37 <Terkhen> depends on what is "accompanying documentation"
15:46:01 <Rubidium> frosch123: you own parts of OpenTTD source code (copyright)
15:46:40 <Terkhen> the grfspecs are definitely a part of the accompanying documentation, the rest of the stuff... I'm not sure
15:47:34 <Rubidium> but you've licensed that with GPL, what gives the "user" some rights. IMO the same applies to that wiki, or at least the documentation of TTDPatch which includes the specification of its interfaces
15:48:17 <frosch123> so, currently the specs wiki says fdl, shouldn't it be gpl2 then?
15:50:31 <orudge> that can be changed, then
15:50:43 <orudge> Terkhen: as far as I can tell, the only things MB has "started" himself on the wiki is the ECS stuff, and the railway dictionary
15:50:54 <orudge> everything else is a derivative of the TTDPatch documentation
15:51:05 <orudge> and as such would be under the GPL
15:51:25 <planetmaker> and the ECS wiki is not part of the newgrf wiki. But would of course be of the tt-wiki
15:51:50 <planetmaker> but there George hopefully will see to it :-)
15:52:49 <planetmaker> I'm not entirely surprised by this reaction actually
15:53:12 <planetmaker> it confirms (pre)judice ;-)
15:55:48 <planetmaker> meh... now my fix-wiki-style python script bot hangs :S
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16:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... too overloaded? www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/zi1-5.png
16:33:03 <orudge> JVassie_ and others: when updating pages on the newgrf wiki, might I suggest removing the redundant description and title from the top of each pages? That's what I've been doing with the TTDPatch wiki.
16:33:42 <orudge> JVassie_: also, -+ +- should be converted to <tt></tt>; but in cases where it's already in a <pre>, then they can just be removed.
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16:36:14 <Terkhen> I'll fix that in the pages I started later
16:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "i'll fix that later" - category: famous last words
16:39:10 <Terkhen> I still hope to have a few years with time to procrastinate ahead :P
16:40:51 <JVassie_> did you get anywhere with MB orudge ?
16:41:00 <orudge> JVassie_: see for yourself
16:41:14 <JVassie_> dont you just love the drama? :D
16:41:21 <orudge> I could do without it, really.
16:43:31 <JVassie_> He thinks the enitre grf specs is his?
16:43:56 <orudge> no, he just wants his contributions removed, which is a ridiculous thing to ask really
16:44:13 <orudge> particularly considering that once something is GPLed, it remains so, and cannot be revoked
16:44:35 <orudge> feel free to post in agreement ;)
16:44:48 <JVassie_> as you said a real case of aToy -> throw_from_pram()
16:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> <orudge> particularly considering that once something is GPLed, it remains so, and cannot be revoked <-- that's actually a very questionable part. some copyright laws explicitly allows the author to revoke copyright.
16:48:16 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but the license itself states unrevoke-able
16:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but if the law states it overrides the license, then the license can state lots of things
16:49:09 <JVassie_> anyoen got a link to the license for the old wiki?
16:49:20 <Terkhen> JVassie_: I couldn't find such link
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16:51:51 <planetmaker> well... mb is basically asking to remove all TTDPatch version references from the nfo specs. After all they can also be directly derived from openttd's source
16:51:56 <Terkhen> hmm... but isn't that related to TTDPatch itself?
16:52:59 <JVassie_> but the question is whether it was supplied as part of ttdpatch's documentation
16:53:16 <JVassie_> which is included in ttdpatch's GPL license
16:53:18 <orudge> if you want to download an old enough version of TTDPatch, there was an nfo.txt or somesuch
16:54:29 <JVassie_> Ill see if i have a copy buried in my pc somewhere
16:55:22 <orudge> old source only seems to be there in diff form, though
16:57:11 <orudge> you have the doc/newgrf.txt file
16:58:13 <JVassie_> that doesnt look like licensing information :s
16:58:21 <orudge> it's the newgrf.txt file
16:58:25 <orudge> containing the original newgrf spec
16:58:32 <orudge> which was later uploaded to the wiki
16:58:34 <orudge> and has evolved since then
16:58:37 <orudge> TTDPatch was under the GPL
16:58:41 <orudge> as such, newgrf.txt was under the GPL
16:58:46 <orudge> and as such, the newgrf spec on the wiki is under the GPL
16:59:12 <JVassie_> probably best to prove it to MB :p
16:59:15 <orudge> now, there is nothing on the wiki saying "all contributions are now GPL", so Michael's own pages are probably not, and he can choose to revoke those
16:59:24 <orudge> JVassie_: well, I already mentioned all this in the thread
16:59:29 <planetmaker> but no one cares about those really
16:59:32 <orudge> but Michael can't revoke the pages that were already GPLed
16:59:42 <JVassie_> orudge, Im sure he will try to though
17:00:10 <planetmaker> yes, he'll go through great pains to prove his point
17:00:40 <orudge> I'm sure in the past though he said things like "you can't use my sets with OpenTTD" :p
17:00:53 <Terkhen> wow, he actually said that?
17:01:46 <Terkhen> sorry, I meant to link that one
17:01:54 <Terkhen> the longest contributions seem to be cleanups
17:01:57 <orudge> I think he's mostly just annoyed that nobody asked his opinion, and that it's buggered up all his formatting of his ECS pages
17:02:01 <orudge> the latter of which I can understand is annoying
17:02:34 <Terkhen> but you made a topic about this plan months ago, and I'm sure he posted in it
17:02:49 <orudge> it's probably just the fact that I did it, relatively speaking, out of the blue
17:02:51 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: interesting is section3: "Der Urheber hat den Inhaber des Nutzungsrechts angemessen zu entschädigen"
17:02:53 <orudge> without posting a further consultation, or whatnot
17:03:00 <planetmaker> So he has to pay us, if he likes to revoke his edits
17:03:21 <orudge> planetmaker: Would German law apply to content that is hosted outside Germany, though? (The TTDPatch wiki has never been hosted in Germany, for what it's worth)
17:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but since nobody is currently making profit anyway...
17:04:02 <planetmaker> orudge: I doubt it for this case
17:05:18 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: not making a profit from selling doesn't mean no compensation is due. Compensation would encompass the time needed to write it anew from OpenTTD's source
17:05:53 <planetmaker> After all I can also ask for compensation / cease and desist if people use my photos without permission
17:06:09 <planetmaker> There are standard rates for such issues.
17:06:33 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie_: you missed the phrase "angemessen" (appropriate) in there
17:06:54 <Prof_Frink> planetmaker: Yes, but was the working of openttd derived from the specs on the ttdpatch wiki?
17:07:13 <planetmaker> it was derived from the gpl'ed part
17:08:19 <planetmaker> interesting is also §42.4: "Will der Urheber nach Rückruf das Werk wieder verwerten, so ist er verpflichtet, dem früheren Inhaber des Nutzungsrechts ein entsprechendes Nutzungsrecht zu angemessenen Bedingungen anzubieten."
17:08:34 <planetmaker> it basically means he'll have to cease using his contributions as well - or allow us, too
17:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: imho the whole paragraph will already fail to apply on the "zumutbar" part in section 1
17:11:13 <Belugas> why would mb want such a move? he just wants a little fun in his existence?
17:14:01 <JVassie_> lets hope he replies to my post
17:14:06 <JVassie_> maybe well find out >.<
17:17:43 <planetmaker> "I've already outlined it all above and don't want to repeat myself"
17:20:42 <planetmaker> api source available via SVN, link at bottom
17:27:49 <orudge> planetmaker: I think bots need to be added to the bots group
17:27:51 <orudge> which you should be able to do
17:28:13 <planetmaker> hm, looks like. Not the path which I exepected it to be
17:28:21 <planetmaker> I'll try that, thanks
17:28:23 <orudge> that's what it says on the mediawiki FAQ :)
17:28:32 <orudge> quick start guide, rather
17:28:38 <planetmaker> I read that, too, I think :-)
17:28:46 <planetmaker> obviously it was changed somewhen
17:29:01 <orudge> does each bot need a user account? You may have to sign it up for a forum account if so
17:30:49 <planetmaker> I currently use my account. But yes
17:31:02 <planetmaker> If it works, I'll register a separate one for it
17:31:22 <planetmaker> and indeed, now I get more useful errors, thanks for the api link :-)
17:37:40 <planetmaker> Ha! Success. I get a connection to the wiki :-)
17:38:46 <planetmaker> Now I "just" need to teach it the proper replacements
17:45:17 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r22585 /trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt:
17:45:17 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:17 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: swedish - 2 changes by Ingerfara
17:49:49 <SpComb> YACD as a maximized window somehow repaints much slower than what I'm used to with OpenTTD
17:50:36 <Terkhen> I guess it is using a lot more processing time
17:51:42 <SpComb> htop shows OpenTTD at max 10%, but X goes to perhaps 80%
17:51:54 <SpComb> maybe my X sucks somehow
17:52:25 <SpComb> mostly an issue while scrolling
17:53:18 <SpComb> need to compare with non-yacd
17:56:25 <SmatZ> do you have the smallmap open?
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18:11:48 <planetmaker> 'n Abend, andythenorth ;-)
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20:29:10 <lukasp> only quick question - does anybody tried to compile openttd on psion netbook (i.e. on epoc)
20:37:49 <Rubidium> lukasp: I doubt the compiler for that platform is new enough to support OpenTTD's source code
20:38:19 <Rubidium> then there's also the question whether SDL or Allegro supports it. If it doesn't, then compiling it makes not much sense
20:41:12 <Rubidium> though processor wise it should be possible to compile OpenTTD for it
20:43:50 <lukasp> that's not very encouraging ... I'm considering purchase of a netbook and its ability to run openttd will help me with decision
20:44:21 <Rubidium> well, you're talking about a 10+ year computer and operating system
20:44:51 <Chris_Booth> lukasp you will be able to run most openttd server on a 1.6 ghz dual core netbook
20:47:07 <lukasp> I know that the computer is obsolete, but I like psion (I'm a little bit old-fashioned:-)
20:49:08 <lukasp> anyway - I found C++ SDK for the computer, so I will try to play little bit with that ... thanks for response
20:54:58 <Rubidium> lukasp: I can find traces of sdl having (had) some support for epoc, and there having been some gcc version; you'll need at most OpenTTD 0.6.3 as the later ones probably won't compile
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22:55:46 <welshdragon> who is website developer?
22:55:56 <welshdragon> the sponsor logos break tables
22:57:08 <Yexo> make sure to include a screenshot, and mention your os, browser and browser version
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23:23:25 <JVassie_> Yexo, any chance I might persuade you to code soem stations? :D
23:23:47 <Yexo> possible, are they already drawn?
23:23:59 <JVassie_> the majority of the sprites are
23:24:26 <Yexo> send me the spritesheets, some description of how they should be combined and I'll see when I have time
23:24:32 <Yexo> probably somewhere this weekend
23:24:53 <JVassie_> Ill pop something over shortly, thanks a lot :)
23:25:02 <JVassie_> hopefully will provide some more material for me to learn from
23:25:14 <JVassie_> will hopefully be able to get back into it again
23:28:43 <JVassie_> one of the features im planning to try and include in the set
23:28:52 <JVassie_> how easy is it to include premade stations
23:29:00 <JVassie_> a la ISR stations set?
23:29:13 <Yexo> not sure, shouldn't be too hard
23:29:17 <Yexo> haven't done that before though
23:29:27 <Yexo> ISR station tiles stay the same after you build them
23:29:46 <Yexo> CHIPS tiles on the other hand change depending on neighboring tiles, so they adept even after they have been build
23:29:57 <JVassie_> i guess i might want that too
23:30:07 <JVassie_> im thinking of the buffers
23:30:10 <Yexo> not sure, but not as much as chips tiles
23:30:22 <Yexo> anyway, it's certainly possible
23:30:29 <Yexo> combination of both is possible too
23:30:39 <JVassie_> amazing the possibilities these days :D
23:30:41 <Yexo> just write down how you want it and I'll see how much is possible to code
23:30:49 <JVassie_> i remmeber the days of 4x5 tiles max :/
23:30:52 <Yexo> for now it's time to sleep :)
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23:43:47 <hgnmu128> UserPages on the tt-wiki have all lost their directory style entry. Surely someone has noticed?
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