IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-14
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00:19:20 <hgnmu128> OPs, can't the TTDPatch LocalStyleGuide be merged with the tt-wiki Manual of Style?
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03:51:47 <rash> hello pals
03:52:50 <rash> generate button is non clickable, ubuntu...anyone?
03:57:39 <rash> silly bug
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04:07:45 <planetmaker> moin
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04:55:41 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22586 /trunk/ (changelog.txt known-bugs.txt os/debian/changelog readme.txt): -Merge: documentation updates from 1.1
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04:56:52 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22587 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Fix: inconsistency in known-bugs.txt
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06:00:25 <Terkhen> good morning
06:05:04 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
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07:43:30 <Terkhen> planetmaker: will the script convert &lt; to < and &gt; to >?
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08:24:52 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I think it doesn't do that atm. Probably issues with the &
08:25:01 <planetmaker> or the > and <.
08:25:13 <Terkhen> hmm... ok
08:26:03 <planetmaker> would be helpful, eh? :-)
08:26:11 <Terkhen> yes :)
08:26:48 <Terkhen> <--- some pages are full of those :P
08:28:28 <planetmaker> hm, Terkhen should work. Maybe it's not included in the uploaded version
08:28:50 <planetmaker> try to add two lines which read like s/&gt;/>/g
08:28:59 <planetmaker> and accordingly for &lt;
08:29:04 <planetmaker> or is that part of it?
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08:29:36 <planetmaker> yes... the uploaded version doesn't have it
08:29:41 <planetmaker> but easy to add
08:30:07 <planetmaker> in wikised
08:30:16 <Terkhen> I don't know; I have only been working in that page so I did not try to apply it yet, but I will for the following ones
08:30:25 <planetmaker> :-)
08:30:30 <Terkhen> do I need something else besides
08:30:32 <Terkhen> ?
08:31:03 <planetmaker> yes, the script which calls it:
08:31:17 <planetmaker> mind that it uses hard-coded filenames. You'll want to adopt that
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08:32:28 <Terkhen> ok, thank you :)
08:32:54 <planetmaker> no worries
08:33:46 <planetmaker> what you'll have to fix manually: for each wiki-link `a la [[wikipage|description] it'll add a |-\n| at the beginning of the paragraph
08:34:20 <planetmaker> And you'll probably need to adjust the headers / introduction section.
08:34:46 <planetmaker> And examples. They *should* work without the <pre> tag and the +- and -+
08:34:56 <planetmaker> (you could add the removal of +- and -+ to the sed script, too)
08:35:15 <planetmaker> s/+-//g
08:35:18 <planetmaker> s/-+//g
08:36:03 <planetmaker> I noticed that the newgrf wiki has 94 pages. And about 66 were not touched this morning. So we did about 25% yesterday
08:36:39 <Terkhen> that's nice :)
08:36:48 <Terkhen> I touched varaction2vehicles but it is far from finished :P
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08:37:10 <planetmaker> yes, there are others which need another re-touch, too
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08:37:29 <planetmaker> but well. Most important is that the tables become readible and that no content is missing
08:37:45 <planetmaker> fixing the other style is secondary to that
08:38:16 <Terkhen> agreed :)
08:38:17 <planetmaker> which again has precedence over nice classes and beautyfication changes ;-)
08:38:53 <Terkhen> once that everything is done, it would be nice to add missing variables to the specs
08:39:22 <Terkhen> <--- there are far more than 3 town variables for example
08:39:40 <Terkhen> they were documented in other place IIRC but IMO this should contain the entire list
08:40:07 <planetmaker> yes, I very much support that.
08:40:25 <planetmaker> I was slightly annoyed about them missing previously. But... well...
08:40:43 <planetmaker> one cannot complain if one could fix it oneself somewhat easily ;-)
08:41:19 <Terkhen> yes but now it is easier :P
08:42:13 <Terkhen> hmm... I should probably hurry to do the part where town storage must be documented... if I had any clue about the right place
08:43:03 <planetmaker> Terkhen, exactly ;-)
08:43:15 <planetmaker> And... somehow I'd be more motivated if it's found in a place with future ;-)
08:43:20 <Terkhen> <--- given that this is the only mention of "storage", maybe it needs a new page now that it is more complex
08:43:26 <Terkhen> that too :P
08:44:04 <Terkhen> <--- oh, this one mentions it as "persistent data"
08:44:26 <Terkhen> one is read, the other is store, so maybe I should add a new page for storage
08:44:30 <planetmaker> hm... Terkhen you don't need to fix it. But make a list of such "same thing, different name"
08:44:30 <Terkhen> hmm... not sure
08:44:34 <planetmaker> I can then bot-edit all pages later
08:44:54 <planetmaker> that's something I can do as it's a simple word / phrase replace
08:45:38 <planetmaker> now that you mentioned that: doing such thing would very generally be a very good thing, I guess
08:45:45 <Terkhen> not worth the effort in this case IMO; there are only three appearances
08:45:49 <planetmaker> there are many places where the same thing is called differently
08:45:55 <Terkhen> but definitely needed for other places and terms
08:46:08 <Terkhen> I'll add it to the todo list
08:55:04 <Terkhen> <--- I'm not sure if this is the best way to list the problems :P
08:56:51 <Yexo> Terkhen: have fun with: sprite / action / real sprite / action sprite / pseudo sprite
08:57:12 <Yexo> although the wiki might even be consistent, the rest of the information is definitely not
08:57:51 <Terkhen> I'm not 100% sure of the relation between all those terms myself :P
08:58:04 <Terkhen> what do you mean with the "rest of the information"?
08:58:20 <Yexo> nml documentation, tutorials on various sites, tt-forums
08:58:47 <Terkhen> hmm... I see :/
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09:03:12 <JVassie_> hi Yexo o/
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09:23:44 <Yexo> hey JVassie_
09:24:04 <JVassie_> did you get a chance to have a read through the PM at all?
09:24:06 <Yexo> got your msg all right, looks good :)
09:24:09 <JVassie_> ah good :)
09:24:26 <JVassie_> I hope it all made sense, was getting tired towards the end of it! :p
09:26:14 <Yexo> it did
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09:30:57 <JVassie_> gonna be quite complex to code all the features i think :s as well as direction and adjacent tiles, some tiles have passenger graphics drawn (dependent on waitign cargo), some tiles have track, some dont, some have a roof/canopy/etc
09:31:02 <JVassie_> quite a lot of combinations
09:31:40 <JVassie_> mind you, dont really know how complex till i get into it i guess :p
09:33:45 <Ammler> the spec is also a bit inconsistent about calling ActionX, sometimes "Action X", sometimes ActionX
09:34:11 <Ammler> spelling*
09:36:00 <Terkhen> and which one would be more correct?
09:37:34 <Ammler> the main article title is without
09:40:13 <Ammler> it is specially silly, as sometimes you see wiki entries, where it uses [[Action7|Action 7]], so it looks like intendend
09:41:53 <Terkhen> IMO it is more clear with an space
09:41:58 <Terkhen> s/an/a/
09:42:06 <Terkhen> but I don't mind either way
09:44:07 <Ammler> hmm, maybe tikiwiki didn't allow title with space?
09:44:29 <Terkhen> I don't know, but the title should not have spaces
09:44:56 <Terkhen> bbl
09:46:06 <Ammler> indeed, it would end in Action_X, which might be uglier... :-)
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10:09:02 <planetmaker> Dunno. We just need to decide one way or another. The api also allows renaming of pages ;-)
10:11:07 <Ammler> wouldn't it be easier to use categories to create index pages?
10:11:30 <planetmaker> maybe. But they need adding, too :-)
10:11:42 <planetmaker> And that's something for later when pages are restored
10:12:08 <Ammler> it could also make history navigation
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10:22:48 <planetmaker> what is 'history navigation'?
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10:31:19 <Ammler> oh, meant hirarchical
10:31:48 <Fzero^> hi :)
10:31:49 <planetmaker> yes, possibly. I guess it's worth looking into that when things consolidate a bit
10:31:55 <planetmaker> We have no category so far at all
10:31:57 <planetmaker> hi Fzero^
10:32:22 <planetmaker> Ammler, and indeed, I plan(ned) to introduce categories. But... when we know how things look like ;-)
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10:42:45 <planetmaker> Terkhen, you can download a new version of wikised
10:43:16 <Chris_Booth> good morning all
10:44:43 <planetmaker> moin Chris_Booth
10:45:14 <Chris_Booth> how is everyone on this fine sunny day
10:45:53 <planetmaker> sunny? It's been raining cats and dogs a bit earlier
10:46:40 <Chris_Booth> not here in england
10:46:50 <Chris_Booth> we haven't had rain for ever
10:51:54 <peter1138> it pissed it down this weekend...
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10:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it rains here right now
10:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's awfully dark
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10:59:32 <Terkhen> planetmaker: ok, thanks :)
10:59:36 <Terkhen> I'll do some pages now
11:02:45 <planetmaker> it works much better now :-)
11:02:56 <planetmaker> I just did two pages w/o manual edits afterwards
11:03:13 <Terkhen> great :)
11:04:35 <Fzero^> can some support me in german :D? my englich istn well ^^ :/
11:06:46 <Ammler> Fzero^: :-)
11:06:55 <Fzero^> :) thx
11:09:56 <Terkhen> planetmaker: the ones at the end (except maybe the last one) don't look very universal :)
11:10:11 <Terkhen> they probably don't hurt either
11:11:14 <planetmaker> yes, they're not, but that's also not their intention ;-)
11:12:40 <planetmaker> btw... fixed the error with &lt;
11:12:45 <planetmaker> it was spellt wrongly
11:12:54 <planetmaker> thus... download again :-P
11:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a great piece of art to misspell a two letter word ;)
11:13:31 <planetmaker> yup
11:13:38 <planetmaker> but it's not a word ;-)
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11:13:54 <planetmaker> also... you as saxonian shouldn't mind the difference between d and t :-P
11:14:21 <Eddi|zuHause> related:
11:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: half-saxonian ;)
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11:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: funnily enough, i had that problem just yesterday when trying to type ""
11:18:02 <Terkhen> planetmaker: s/Format: /'''Format:''' /gi <--- this fixes lower case formats and also sets them in bold (for varaction2vars)
11:19:52 <Terkhen> hmm... the script also breaks links in the format [[WikiPage|name]
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11:20:43 <Terkhen> but I don't know enough regex magic to define "matches | and is not surrounded by [string | string]" :P
11:21:35 <Yexo> can't you make it simpler? ie match | surrounded by spaces?
11:22:03 <Terkhen> sorry, it has no spaces
11:23:49 <Eddi|zuHause> typical case of "there are no girls on the internet": "Syrian blogger Amina 'A Gay Girl in Damascus' Arraf turns out to actually be Tom McAlister from Georgia, currently residing in Edinburgh. Also the editor of 'Lez Get Real', Paula Brooks is actually Bill Graber from Ohio, who took on the identity of his wife. The two actually flirted with each other, neither realizing the other was a man."
11:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> <Terkhen> but I don't know enough regex magic to define "matches | and is not surrounded by [string | string]" :P <-- something like replacing \[([^|]*)|([^|])\] with a temporary symbol, e.g. %, then replacing remaining |, and replacing the temporary symbol back
11:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... missing something
11:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> \[([^|\]]*)|([^|\]])*\]
11:28:30 <Terkhen> :O
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11:28:42 <Terkhen> nice, let's test it
11:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> can be replaced by something like \[\1%\2\]
11:28:56 <planetmaker> Terkhen, does the current version really break links for you?
11:29:08 <Terkhen> planetmaker: if they are inside tables, yes
11:29:22 <planetmaker> hm...
11:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the temporary symbol better be something that doesn't occur naturally ;)
11:30:38 <planetmaker> XXXXXXX - so far -did not :-P
11:30:44 <Terkhen> can it be multiple symbols? something like %#%
11:30:51 <planetmaker> yes
11:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
11:30:55 <Terkhen> ok :)
11:31:07 <Terkhen> I'll test once I finish with the current page
11:32:37 <planetmaker> well, I only adopt it to the pages I visited. And maybe sometimes I also break what I already added ;-)
11:32:45 <planetmaker> it's mostly one-time use ;-)
11:36:30 <Eddi|zuHause> of course i forgot escaping \| above
11:36:43 * JVassie_ escapes
11:37:26 <Terkhen> I'm going to modify the style for varaction2 pages a bit
11:37:44 <Terkhen> otherwise I'll need to invent introduction for all pages :P
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11:39:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so this should work: s/\[([^\|\]]*)\|([^\|\]])*\]/\[\1%#%\2\]/g s/\|/whatever/g s/%#%/\|/g
11:39:31 <planetmaker> Terkhen, just leave the introduction. If it's one sentence, that's ok IMHO
11:39:45 <planetmaker> and one sentence usually remains ;-)
11:40:07 <planetmaker> or it's an empty section... to be filled in later
11:40:22 <Terkhen> currently there is no introduction so it will just be an introduction explaining the title: "this page contains varaction2 for vehicles"
11:40:52 <Terkhen> but yes, makes sense
11:41:01 <Terkhen> things that are currently under the variable table should be in the introduction
11:41:03 <Ammler> hehe, planetmaker, did you buy "Das (in)offizielle Handbuch zu OpenTTD"?
11:41:08 <Terkhen> I'll leave it empty though
11:41:34 <planetmaker> Ammler, no. I proof-read it
11:42:09 <planetmaker> thus I have it without buying it ;-)
11:42:30 <Ammler> ah ok, is it better as the wiki?
11:43:13 <Terkhen> <--- something like this I guess
11:43:18 <planetmaker> As the German part? Well. It has some parts which are not well translated yet. But where there's a translation (like tutorial), it doesn't really matter
11:43:45 <planetmaker> and, more important, Ammler, it is very limited in depth. Thus the wiki will get you eventually much further
11:44:17 <planetmaker> yes, why not, Terkhen :-)
11:44:23 <planetmaker> I'd just hit 'save' and move on ;-)
11:44:33 <Ammler> well, anyway, he doesn't become rich with it, he should rahter make it os
11:44:34 <Terkhen> ok, I'll update the style guide then :)
11:45:17 <planetmaker> hm, what is different? :-D
11:45:44 <planetmaker> s/Variables/List of Variables/g ?
11:46:33 <Terkhen> it is now more similar to the format used in action0
11:46:50 <planetmaker> right :-)
11:47:00 <planetmaker> I guess that's where my main focus was so far
11:47:08 <Terkhen> :P
11:47:33 <Terkhen> and yes, list of variables should be "variables"
11:48:34 <Terkhen> oh, I forgot the "version" in the table
11:48:44 <Terkhen> I'll leave it empty too, though
11:48:51 <Terkhen> it can be fixed later
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11:49:40 <planetmaker> yup
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12:00:31 <Terkhen> <--- should all pages with "Size" on the table header have a link to GRFActionsDetailed as this one?
12:02:10 <planetmaker> I didn't yet think about that, but why not?
12:02:32 <Terkhen> I'll add it to the style then :)
12:02:50 <planetmaker> :-)
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12:05:04 <planetmaker> 38 pages visited, 56 to go
12:05:27 <JVassie_> hmm?
12:05:40 <planetmaker> of the newgrf wiki
12:05:42 <Terkhen> time for testing that crazy sed code :)
12:05:55 <planetmaker> 38 pages were touched by *someone*
12:05:59 <planetmaker> 56 are still virgin
12:07:33 <JVassie_> *39
12:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> rule #1 when testing crazy sed code: have an easily restorable backup ;)
12:08:03 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the wiki pages don't edit and save themselves ;-)
12:08:12 <planetmaker> thus rule #1 is ensured ;-)
12:08:16 <Terkhen> yes, I'm testing on a local text file :P
12:08:21 <planetmaker> unless I mess up big time with the wiki bot :-P
12:08:49 <planetmaker> but then... there's history
12:09:20 <JVassie_> :p
12:09:25 <JVassie_> dont muck up then :D
12:10:26 <planetmaker> <-- still limited edits :-P
12:11:17 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: sed: file wikised.txt line 2: invalid reference \2 on `s' command's RHS
12:11:27 <Terkhen> it only contains: s/\[([^\|\]]*)\|([^\|\]])*\]/\[\1%#%\2\]/g
12:11:52 <Eddi|zuHause> err...
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12:12:05 <Eddi|zuHause> switch )* to *)
12:12:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (but that shouldn't cause this error)
12:13:02 <Terkhen> yes, the error still happens with that correction
12:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it needs escaping \( and \)
12:15:58 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... still doesn't work properly
12:16:51 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: with those escapes the error is gone for me
12:17:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but it doesn't do what i expect it to do ;)
12:17:29 <Terkhen> [[GRFActionsDetailed|'''Size''']] ----> [|][|]GRFActionsDetailed!!'''Size''[|']] <--- no, it does not :P
12:19:01 <JVassie_> the link should be [[GRFActionsDetailed|'''Size''']]
12:19:22 <JVassie_> its a pipe in the middle not !
12:20:20 <Terkhen> JVassie_: yes, it is an error of the script
12:20:26 <JVassie_> ah :p
12:20:32 <planetmaker> Ah... Terkhen I think that can be fixed:
12:21:16 <planetmaker> /\[\[[A-Za-z0-9#_-].*|[A-Za-z0-9#_-\. ].*\]\]/s/|/XXXXXX/g ---> /\[\[[A-Za-z0-9#_-].*|[A-Za-z0-9#_-\. '].*\]\]/s/|/XXXXXX/g or /\[\[[A-Za-z0-9#_-].*|[A-Za-z0-9#_-\. \'].*\]\]/s/|/XXXXXX/g
12:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: somehow the \] in the [] is not recognized properly
12:21:25 <planetmaker> dunno whether ' needs escaping
12:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and the \| should be unescaped to |
12:21:53 <Eddi|zuHause> echo '[te|st]' | sed 's/\[\([^|]*\)|\([^|]*\)\]/\[\1%#%\2\]/g'
12:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> [te%#%st]
12:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: isn't there like [:alphanum:]?
12:22:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, regex are greedy, that will fail for two consecutive links, I think
12:22:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, which is why i originally put the \] in
12:24:21 <Terkhen> huh... all three look the same to me
12:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but you have some ill-placed . in there
12:24:38 <planetmaker> Terkhen, the difference is a ' or \' in the latter two
12:24:56 <planetmaker> I did not consider that character to occur there in the link description
12:25:00 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: don't put . before *
12:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the * must be behind the ]
12:25:23 <planetmaker> hm, yes. that's wrong
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12:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and the \( \) are relevant
12:25:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to include those again
12:25:45 <planetmaker> actually .* --> +
12:26:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that shouldn't really matter
12:26:42 <planetmaker> * also matches no character. We want by definition at least one ;-)
12:26:51 <planetmaker> but that's beside our actual issue
12:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the actual issue was why [^\]] does not get interpreted properly
12:30:15 <Terkhen> hmm... how can I upload an image to the wiki?
12:31:42 <planetmaker> Terkhen, click on the image button. Choose a name. Save the page. Click on the resulting link
12:32:00 <Terkhen> oh :P
12:32:14 <Terkhen> thanks
12:32:17 <planetmaker> np
12:35:49 <planetmaker> JVassie_, the <pre> tags can go in most cases. Replace them simply by a leading space for that or those lines.
12:36:01 <planetmaker> Then you can additionally use things like italics or bold
12:36:03 <Terkhen> regarding the link problem, it would also work to have a single command for turning [[string1!!string2]] into [[string1|string2]] at the end
12:36:07 <JVassie_> hmm
12:36:10 <JVassie_> fair enough
12:36:14 <planetmaker> The latter might be interesting to highlight certain bytes. Like the action byte
12:36:18 <JVassie_> thought it was used to make them stand out
12:36:39 <planetmaker> Yes. Nearly same effect visually ;-)
12:36:43 <JVassie_> :p
12:36:52 <planetmaker> except additional formating ;-)
12:36:56 <Terkhen> oh, and [[string1||string2]] into [[string1|string2]]
12:37:32 <planetmaker> Terkhen, no. The links first have to be deprived of the |
12:37:41 <planetmaker> Otherwise the table fixes affect them with side-effects
12:37:46 <Terkhen> oh, ok
12:37:54 <planetmaker> in the end the links must then be restored
12:38:18 <planetmaker> thus the s/[...|...]/[...XXXXXX...]/ and the revert later
12:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <-- this somehow fails to mention how to check for ] whithin a list
12:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, i'm just blind
12:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it says it right there
12:43:34 <JVassie_> planetmaker, whats {toc} for?
12:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> > echo '[te|st]' | sed 's/\[\([^]|]*\)|\([^]|]*\)\]/\[\1%#%\2\]/g'
12:43:55 <Eddi|zuHause> [te%#%st]
12:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> this works now
12:45:27 <JVassie_> oh
12:45:31 <JVassie_> table of contents
12:45:32 <JVassie_> derr
12:45:47 <Bilge> durr
12:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen, planetmaker: checked this above?
12:46:59 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: I'm finishing a page, I'll test after that :)
12:47:11 <Terkhen> <--- what should be do regarding this?
12:47:38 <Terkhen> right now it is linked in many placed
12:47:49 <Terkhen> the document has copyright so we can't just pick the stuff and port it to the specs
12:48:25 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I suggest we integrate that in the appropriate places once the current stuff is readable.
12:48:40 <planetmaker> hm... is it?
12:48:46 <Terkhen> yes, check the bottom
12:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> keep the links there, and in long-term either try to ask Martin Grzegorczyk for permission, or re-create the information from TTDPatch sources
12:49:15 <planetmaker> openttd sources ;-)
12:49:33 <Terkhen> I was thinking on that, except recreate from openttd sources and let the ttdpatch update to someone else
12:49:36 <Eddi|zuHause> not all of this seems to apply to openttd
12:50:32 <Terkhen> indeed
12:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the landscape part is totally different from docs/landscape.html
12:51:34 <Terkhen> but that part should not be part of the specs
12:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> most important for newgrfs are the 80+ variables
12:55:27 <Terkhen> yes, in the case of those IMO we should keep the link and document the ones we can from openttd code
12:58:10 <planetmaker> if I don't forget I'll write an e-mail tonight
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13:04:28 <Terkhen> ok :)
13:04:39 <JVassie_> wiki updates are coming along nicely :)
13:05:54 <Terkhen> :)
13:05:58 <planetmaker> I guess we'll have done most basic stuff by the end of the week, if we all keep our pace :-)
13:06:00 <planetmaker> That's nice
13:06:27 <Terkhen> let's test the new sed magic with the next one :P
13:06:44 <Terkhen> VarAction2Cities <--- meh, IMO this should be Towns
13:08:25 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: works fine, thank you :)
13:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: i stumbled across that as well
13:08:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i support this change ;)
13:09:06 <Terkhen> I'll add it to the todo list :)
13:09:29 <planetmaker> ok :-)
13:09:43 <planetmaker> _now_ we can do that :-P
13:10:02 <planetmaker> before we couldn't even edit the TOC
13:10:43 <Terkhen> TOC?
13:10:49 <planetmaker> Table Of Contents
13:10:53 <Terkhen> oh :P
13:12:03 <JVassie_> Terkhen, ive made some additions to the list too :p
13:12:09 <Terkhen> :)
13:12:28 <planetmaker> yes, please keep it coming :-)
13:12:28 <JVassie_> more examples we have in the specs the better i think
13:12:41 <planetmaker> Yoda your father is? :-P
13:12:55 <JVassie_> believe so I
13:13:01 <Terkhen> I think that splitting Item into Page and Description would be good :)
13:13:06 <Terkhen> (in the todo list)
13:13:07 <JVassie_> *believe so I do
13:14:58 <Ammler> if you keep the copyright, you can copy it, can't you?
13:15:13 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it doesn't work like that
13:16:04 <planetmaker> not at all
13:16:10 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you have a piece of paper that says "you can copy it", you can't.
13:16:12 <planetmaker> otherwise I could also copy $movie or $cd
13:18:03 <Terkhen> I think that giving tables a background colour slightly darker than the page background colour would improve readability (as done in the ttdpatch wiki)
13:18:18 <Belugas> hello
13:19:00 <JVassie_> i agree Terkhen
13:19:08 <JVassie_> only slightly though
13:19:38 <planetmaker> Terkhen, yes, I agree.
13:19:54 <JVassie_> make it happen buddy :p
13:19:58 <planetmaker> it's one of those things I postponed atm
13:20:40 <Terkhen> ok :)
13:21:46 <JVassie_> I think the combination of merging the wikis, giving them a facelift, and hopefully including more examples will see more budding NFO devs start appearing
13:22:28 <Terkhen> that would be great :)
13:23:06 <JVassie_> hmm
13:23:14 <Terkhen> maybe "make an example" entries should have their own table in the todo list, otherwise other items will get drown in them :P
13:23:16 <JVassie_> one thing the sidebar is missing is a link to the main tt-wiki, no?
13:23:21 <Terkhen> s/make/write
13:23:25 <JVassie_> good idea
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13:23:29 <JVassie_> ill split them out
13:23:59 <planetmaker> good point. I actually edited a lot of pages... but indeed did not add it to the todo as I didn't think of it.
13:24:10 <planetmaker> they lack an example, too
13:24:32 <Terkhen> neither did I... all varaction2var pages will be missing an introduction and an example, so I'll add them all in a single modification later
13:26:14 <JVassie_> ToDo list edited
13:26:19 <JVassie_> split the two types out
13:26:25 <Terkhen> ok :)
13:26:44 <JVassie_> <JVassie_> one thing the sidebar is missing is a link to the main tt-wiki, no?
13:26:50 <JVassie_> reckon it should be added?
13:26:54 <orudge> JVassie_: I would say yes
13:27:00 <orudge> and I would also say they should be coordinated in some way
13:27:02 <orudge> but we can work on that later
13:27:09 <JVassie_> coordinated in what sense?
13:27:26 <JVassie_> Hmm just remember I can edit sidebar, /me pokes planetmaker
13:27:30 <JVassie_> *cant
13:27:34 <orudge> maintaining a roughly similar order and entries to certain common sites
13:27:38 <orudge> but as I say, we can sort that out later
13:27:40 <JVassie_> ah yes I see
13:28:21 <JVassie_> TT Wiki is lacking a lot of the links that are in the grf specs currently
13:28:29 <JVassie_> aye
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13:32:19 <Terkhen> <--- does openttd compile with this? :P
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13:36:43 <hgnmu128> Starting at $1795? Yes it should. Pfft.
13:37:07 <Yexo> the nightly build is a free download
13:37:48 <hgnmu128> How much is it? Bandwidth costs me. :|
13:39:50 <Terkhen> hgnmu128: the announcement is about it going open source :P
13:40:24 <Terkhen> it seems that I have something difficult and probably not worth the effort to test :)
13:42:38 <Terkhen> really not worth the effort, as it is for multicore apps :P
13:44:11 <George> Why do bold style does not work in codes?
13:44:46 <Terkhen> JVassie_: class="wikitable" is not required anymore
13:45:33 <Terkhen> George: IIRC you have to substitute <pre> with a single space at the start of the line
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13:46:12 <JVassie_> oh now you tell me :D
13:46:47 <Terkhen> sorry, I only noticed when I reached one of the varactions you edited :P
13:47:10 <George> Terkhen: does not help :(
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13:47:37 <George> can you fix one case to illustrate?
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13:47:47 <Terkhen> sure
13:49:02 <hgnmu128> 13:39:10 <@Terkhen> hgnmu128: the announcement is about it going open source
13:49:02 <Terkhen> George: <--- note the space at the start of the line
13:49:38 <hgnmu128> I saw that, on the next page was 'Starting at $1795'. I didn't notice the nightly link, my bad.
13:50:16 <Terkhen> it's understandable that the cost caught your eye :P
13:51:16 <George> Terkhen: ''' disappeared, but no bold style is provided
13:51:42 <Terkhen> hmm... it appears as bold to me
13:51:47 <Terkhen> it is barely noticeable, though
13:51:58 <hgnmu128> Hmm. I heard someone (who has gone wacko) complain about me making the wiki intros bold. I didn't make them. I left the line unedited. I removed the normal text intro. My bad (again?).
13:53:18 <orudge> hgnmu128: generally, the pages imported from TikiWiki have redundant lines at the top. For instance,
13:53:23 <JVassie_> <Terkhen> sorry, I only noticed when I reached one of the varactions you edited :P
13:53:25 <JVassie_> no worries :D
13:53:30 <orudge> they should generally be removed, as the page title should already be descriptive enough
13:53:34 <George> Terkhen: Hm, at 200% zoom it is bold. but with no zoom it is not seen. How to fix it?
13:53:50 <orudge> In some cases one line of description may be appropriate:
13:53:51 <JVassie_> New signature on tt-forums \o/
13:53:52 <planetmaker> hgnmu128, you could just follow Style guidelines which you asked to be put into place ;-)
13:54:21 <hgnmu128> orudge: I know. The style guide does *not* say intro should not be in bold, explicitly, anyway. ;)
13:54:25 <Terkhen> George: I guess that the style for that type of text needs to be changed
13:54:29 <orudge> Oh, well, no, it shouldn't.
13:54:47 <Terkhen> probably as a global change
13:54:52 <Terkhen> but I don't know how to do that :P
13:55:23 <planetmaker> generally the pages (at least on the newgrf wiki) should start with an introduction 2nd order topic. And then it needs removal of the first two lines which are somewhat redundant.
13:55:35 <hgnmu128> I think Owen can do that by editing the appropriate sections in the CSS.
13:56:04 <planetmaker> hgnmu128, the wikis have a Media:Common.css (or similar) which you probably could also edit
13:56:24 <planetmaker> But it's a good idea to install Firebug (or similar) and thus test a style change locally first before doing so
13:56:40 <hgnmu128> planetmaker: didn't know I could do that.
13:56:42 <planetmaker> there are MANY inter-dependencies, so any change is not exactly straight forward
13:56:51 <hgnmu128> I do have Firebug, anyway.
13:56:52 <planetmaker> hgnmu128, I don't know, but at least worth a try ;-)
13:56:57 <orudge> What exactly is the problem in this case, hgnmu128 / George?
13:57:16 <orudge> if we're looking at, I see bold bits in the <pre> - is that the issue?
13:57:23 <orudge> since it seems fine here for me (Firefox 4 on Windows 7)
13:57:48 <hgnmu128> Nobody's getting *my* point yet. GoneWacko complained earlier on this channel (or tycoon) that I made the introduction in bold text. He said it was ugly and it should be edited by CSS. All that happens when I was offline and...
13:58:20 <planetmaker> he's totally right with that. Large-scale text style should be CSS
13:58:22 <hgnmu128> *introductions to the TikiWiki ported redundant title-intro pages
13:58:39 <orudge> Indeed. However, since they shouldn't be there anyway, let's not argue about it :)
13:58:51 <planetmaker> And I'm personally not convinced that the introduction(s) should be bold face
13:58:53 * orudge shall get some work done on the wiki shortly, anyway
13:58:58 <orudge> I would say they shouldn't
14:00:49 <hgnmu128> ... I know I couldn't agree more, but I didn't get a chance to talk with him after that. On the original (unformatted) pages, there was two lines of intro (yeah, the redundant ones), one in bold italics and the other in normal typeface. I just removed the normal line and left the bold one untouched. Sorry about that,
14:01:06 <orudge> well, I wouldn't worry about it
14:01:07 <planetmaker> I usually delete the bold one
14:01:23 * hgnmu128 's network is having some real trouble
14:01:24 <planetmaker> but indeed sounds like no biggy whichever way
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14:01:34 <George> orudge: this bold text is seen only at high zoom (FF4, WinXP)
14:01:53 <George> do you need screenshots?
14:02:00 <orudge> George: might be handy. It works fine for me, as I say.
14:02:03 <orudge> I'll test in some other browsers, too
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14:02:29 <orudge> hmm, it looks fine in both IE and Google Chrome
14:02:35 <orudge> as well as Firefox, as I mentioned before
14:02:37 <Yexo> looks fine for me in FF4 too
14:02:45 <hgnmu128> What does?
14:02:57 <orudge> the bold text
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14:04:22 <hgnmu128> I missed that part. Will slightly colorizing the to-be-bold text solve the problem? I don't know if that's apt, but, whatever.
14:05:18 * planetmaker fancies simple designs ;-)
14:05:25 <George>
14:06:08 <orudge> George: the top one is bold, I can see that here
14:06:15 <orudge> it's perhaps just not that obvious
14:06:18 <planetmaker> I see it in both cases
14:06:19 <George> I can't
14:06:30 <planetmaker> same bytes are bold
14:06:40 <orudge> as I say, it's perhaps a little less obvious, but it's definitely bold
14:07:00 <George> 1920x1080 on 23" Samsung
14:07:04 <planetmaker> George, how does the source of that look like?
14:07:07 <hgnmu128> Can you turn down the font smoothing a bit, then look again?
14:07:25 <planetmaker> is the bold intended? Or not?
14:07:32 <Terkhen> I can barely distinguish that the text is bold with at 1280x1024
14:07:37 <George> 21 * 34 04 0A '''FF''' 01 '''00 D0''' 94 80 &quot; should be built in towns&quot; 00
14:07:57 <planetmaker> George, ''' indicates that bold text shall follow up to the next '''
14:08:04 <planetmaker> and it works obviously
14:08:29 <George> it works on 200% zoom, yes
14:08:33 <planetmaker> If you don't want that (but I think you do), remove the '''
14:08:43 <George> And I suppose on 100% too, but I can't see it
14:08:45 <Terkhen> it is a problem of visibility IMO
14:08:49 <planetmaker> George, then it's your local font / font smoothing
14:09:28 <George> Well, in case other people see that fine it would not be much problem for me
14:09:30 <planetmaker> it's less obvious than one will wish for, definitely
14:09:33 <hgnmu128> That's what I said! :|
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14:10:06 <Chris_Booth> Afternoon all
14:11:05 <Terkhen> hi Chris_Booth
14:11:11 <hgnmu128> By the way, I've been offline since early morning, what happened to M.Blunck's copyright and shit?
14:11:13 <George> where is this page in the new wiki?
14:11:27 <hgnmu128> I noticed that too.
14:11:45 <Chris_Booth> M.Blunck grrr
14:11:47 <hgnmu128> There is a link at the bottom of the ECS pages, leading to a page creation.
14:11:54 <Terkhen> <--- here, but it does not seem to be linked anywhere
14:12:08 <Terkhen> wait, I'll fix the format
14:12:12 <planetmaker> :-)
14:12:42 <George> How to make the right link to it from &
14:12:45 <George> ?
14:13:06 <hgnmu128> Done!
14:13:07 <George> (different domains)
14:13:56 <planetmaker> <-- it must be linked *somewhere*, Terkhen ;-)
14:14:15 <Yexo> George: [ String codes]
14:14:18 <hgnmu128> Yep, different dimains.
14:14:24 <Yexo> everything after the first space will be used as link text
14:14:31 <hgnmu128> *domains
14:14:45 <hgnmu128> I edited it already. Sorry. :|
14:15:39 <hgnmu128> planetmaker: WhatLinksHere shows only the links from the current domain, does it not?
14:15:47 <Terkhen> <--- the format is fixed now
14:15:48 <planetmaker> yes
14:16:11 <George> You fix pages so fast - do you have a script?
14:16:17 <planetmaker> yes ;-)
14:16:21 <George> If yes, can you fix ECS pages too?
14:16:28 <planetmaker> it still takes time...
14:16:35 <George> Please ^)
14:16:51 <Terkhen> IIRC a bot was going to be able to do that
14:17:04 <planetmaker> hopefully ;-)
14:17:08 <George> when?
14:17:23 <planetmaker> when it's done. Sorry, dunno, it's a bit uncharted territory for me
14:17:52 <planetmaker> maybe it's quicker to do it by hand than me figuring out how to write that in python
14:18:13 <Terkhen> planetmaker: what about creating a small website that applies the script to the given text?
14:18:16 <planetmaker> I can edit. But I have not yet managed to put the whole regex stuff into the python script
14:18:35 <hgnmu128> planetmaker: But it is better in the long run, I guess.
14:18:55 <planetmaker> hgnmu128, it's only crude a conversion script. Thus for the one-time use now mostly
14:19:14 <planetmaker> simple edits are feasible already, out of box for the pywikibot
14:19:35 <hgnmu128> In case someone creates new TikiWikis on TTD and Owen decides to merge them into tt-wiki.
14:19:43 <planetmaker> lol
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14:20:52 <planetmaker> anyway, I'll give the bot a bit more thought later today, though I won't have much time tonight and tomorrow neither
14:21:16 <planetmaker> there's a path. But it's paved with python syntax boulders to stumble over ;-)
14:21:28 <hgnmu128> I don't see the bot on the prowl on the wiki, anyway... Does anyone else?
14:21:42 <planetmaker> ?
14:22:40 <planetmaker> <-- it was only present two times so far (and I rolled back the 1st)
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14:23:42 <planetmaker> George, I'll try to get it work. if not... doing it the manual way... at this pace it'll take approx a week I guess
14:24:11 <orudge> For what it's worth, I'll have a long time in airport lounges next week, so if nothing else, I can spend the time working my way through wiki pages :P
14:24:14 <planetmaker> how many pages are the ECS pages, George ?
14:25:13 <George> 214 if I'm not mistaken
14:25:20 <planetmaker> woot?!
14:25:21 <Terkhen> wow :P
14:25:33 <planetmaker> that's 225% of the whole NewGRF wiki
14:25:53 <hgnmu128> lol
14:25:58 <George> I count the number of pages exported from the old wiki
14:26:12 <Yexo> of most of those are translations they'll be easy to fix automatically though
14:26:36 <George> less than 33% were exported
14:27:00 <orudge> all pages were exported from the old wiki, except the two problematic pages, and the German and Russian translations
14:27:17 <orudge> (which were problematic for the same reason, due to the non-ASCII characters, unfortunately)
14:27:18 <planetmaker> George, you use perl, do you?
14:27:19 <George> =214/3-2
14:27:26 <planetmaker> or do you have access to sed?
14:27:26 <George> Yes, I do
14:27:28 <orudge> if somebody is knowledgeable enough in Python, they can perhaps try to fix the script I used to fix those
14:28:00 <planetmaker> <-- those are replacement rules for sed to throw on the page(s) in that very succession
14:28:07 <Terkhen> sed can be installed on windows easily:
14:28:30 <Yexo> orudge: is that script available somewhere?
14:28:46 <planetmaker> sed 'N; s/\n|-/|-/g; P; D' <-- that is then needed in a last run
14:29:07 <planetmaker> that's what I basically use currently
14:29:09 <orudge> Yexo:
14:29:46 <Ammler> maybe the translations are outdated anyway
14:30:16 <Yexo> thanks, might have a look later to see if I can fix that
14:30:27 <George> Well, if your jog with script would fail, I'll have a look at writing my perl scripts. But I hope this would not happen :)
14:30:31 <planetmaker> Yexo, but would that help at this point?
14:30:41 <hgnmu128> Orudge: Do you have an overview of what needs fixing?
14:30:43 <Yexo> dunno, would it?
14:30:46 <Yexo> if not, I won't bother ;)
14:30:50 <Ammler> translations are very bad implemented in openttd. please don't do it similar on newgrf wiki
14:30:53 <orudge> hgnmu128: for what?
14:31:12 <hgnmu128> What could be? For the script.
14:31:15 <planetmaker> Yexo, I'm not too familiar, but the pages are already imported... though orudge certainly has the tikiwiki dump around somewhere
14:31:21 <orudge> hgnmu128: for what script? I'm confused
14:31:22 <Ammler> they screw up search completely
14:31:34 <hgnmu128> You python script.
14:31:35 <orudge> hgnmu128: if you mean the script I just linked Yexo to, that's just for the initial conversion of tiki to mediawiki
14:31:45 <orudge> it chokes when it encounters a non-ASCII character, it seems.
14:31:52 <hgnmu128> *Your
14:32:08 <George> Yexo: of most of those are translations they'll be easy to fix automatically though <- how? They are even not exported to the new wiki
14:32:19 <hgnmu128> But can't that be solved using Unicode?
14:32:37 <orudge> as for multilingual mediawiki, it seems that's something they're planning, but isn't properly implemented. We could have multiple wikis - ie,,, in the same manner as Wikipedia, perhaps.
14:33:01 <Yexo> or you could copy the way the openttd wiki does it, although that's also far from ideal
14:33:04 <hgnmu128> Dream big.
14:33:13 <Ammler> Yexo: that is worst :-)
14:33:22 <orudge> hgnmu128: I don't know Python, so I can't fix it. Somebody who does, hopefully can. :p
14:33:28 <Yexo> George: by fixing the conversion script so they can be exported
14:33:51 <George> Yexo: I hope to see that happen :)
14:33:52 <hgnmu128> But I thought that was *your* script. Is it planetmakers?
14:33:56 <hgnmu128> *'s
14:33:59 <orudge> hgnmu128: no.
14:34:03 <orudge> hgnmu128: you're confusing two scripts here, I think.
14:34:07 <Yexo> hgnmu128: orudge used it, but didn't write it himself
14:34:10 <orudge> planetmaker has a script to tidy up the mediawiki pages.
14:34:10 <Ammler> specially if the only translation is copy the English text
14:34:27 <orudge> my script was one I found online
14:34:32 <orudge> for the initial conversion
14:34:37 <planetmaker> Yexo, it might be easier to put move the sed script into the of the bot you gave me
14:34:40 <hgnmu128> planetmaker has a shell script, I know. Then who made the python script?
14:34:40 <Yexo> Ammler: that can happen with any system
14:34:44 <hgnmu128> I see it. Got it.
14:34:56 <hgnmu128> *online*, huh?
14:35:17 <Ammler> Yexo: how does that happen in wikimedia?
14:35:35 <Terkhen> oh, VarAction2Objects has examples :)
14:35:46 <planetmaker> it "just" needs kinda not using the current replace method (which is not bad, but... limited) and replace it by the custom one working on the whole page source. I guess I'll canibalize some of the translations bot of yours... and so far....
14:35:47 <Yexo> someone copies the english page over and only than starts translating
14:35:54 <planetmaker> it's just a steep learning curve for me :-)
14:35:57 <Yexo> if you leave out the "start translating" part you'll end up with a copy of the english page
14:36:48 <hgnmu128> planetmaker: steep learning curve, huh? I read the exact phrase somewhere else...
14:38:27 * Terkhen is also surprised of reading that sentence in a different context than "OpenTTD"
14:38:29 <Ammler> if you you really like again to translate, it might be worth to check how does it
14:38:32 <planetmaker> I just can't promise how fast I'll learn ;-)
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14:44:45 <Terkhen> I'm done with conversions until this evening or tomorrow, time to work :P
14:44:52 <planetmaker> :-)
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14:47:56 <planetmaker> George, how many of the ECS pages have tables, though?
14:48:22 <George> most
14:48:59 <planetmaker> well... most I randomly looked at had no tables ;-)
14:49:03 <planetmaker> That's why I'm asking
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14:50:52 <planetmaker>
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14:51:08 <planetmaker>
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14:51:16 <George> 103 of 214 pages have tables
14:51:31 <planetmaker> :-)
14:51:58 <Terkhen> George: do you have the pages in text format?
14:52:13 <George> Export from old wiki
14:52:43 <George> text + wiki header
14:52:50 <planetmaker> ok, I'll see that I'll get this replace script done asap
14:54:27 <Ammler> maybe you can call a competition on tt-forums for a logo :-)
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14:55:29 <George> Ammler: :))))
14:55:40 <Ammler> (or remove the dummy)
14:55:52 <planetmaker> The competition idea is not that bad, I think
14:56:38 <George> I'd prefer to see it done by a script :)
14:56:43 <planetmaker> the logo?
14:57:19 <George> the pages
14:57:37 <planetmaker> yes. Ammer suggested competition for the logo, though. Not for the wiki edits ;-)
14:58:01 <George> :))))
14:58:03 <Yexo> just create a competition who can cleanup the most wiki pages :)
14:58:06 <Ammler> <-- wanted to add a text that grf spec is moving to tt-wiki but editing is disabled :-P
14:58:32 <orudge> Ammler: eventually, the pages will be redirected
14:59:12 <Terkhen> George: if you have all of them in text files, I could run the script on all of them at once
14:59:23 <Terkhen> mind that they still need some formatting after the conversion
14:59:35 <Ammler> will the whole domain go down?
14:59:40 <orudge> Ammler: no.
14:59:48 <orudge> I don't host, or have anything to do with it.
14:59:52 <orudge> it's just the wiki (and svn) that I host
14:59:57 <planetmaker> Ammler, no. But... there's only one angry person "maintaining" it
15:00:16 <Ammler> I should not but :-D
15:01:26 <Ammler> svn could be converted to hg or git and moved to bitbucket or github
15:01:42 <orudge> could be, but I see no need for that
15:01:46 <orudge> I'm quite happy to host everything
15:02:10 <orudge> I might move it to a different server with a more modern version of svn and trac, though
15:02:23 <George> Terkhen: I have old wiki export. I can send it to you if you wish
15:02:52 <Ammler> orudge: it would make forking easier...
15:03:03 <planetmaker> how so?
15:03:05 <orudge> Ammler: it would, but who's going to want to fork TTDPatch in this day and age? ;)
15:03:26 <orudge> anyway, we'll see, I guess
15:03:39 <Terkhen> George: I think that the script is made to work with the code at tt-wiki, it won't work with the old code
15:03:42 <planetmaker> I bet everyone who really wants to work on it and comes with patches w/could get svn
15:04:19 <George> Terkhen: then I do not have them in the text form. There is only the wiki itself
15:05:01 <Terkhen> hmm... ok, let's wait for the bot then :P
15:05:27 <planetmaker> hm... ok. I'll have another go during (extended) dinner ;-)
15:06:18 <Terkhen> :)
15:06:35 <Ammler> planetmaker: you can kinda "close" it
15:06:44 <planetmaker> hm?
15:06:52 <Ammler> running svn for a "dead" project isn't really worth
15:07:13 <Ammler> and it could happen, that svn just will switch off
15:07:21 <Ammler> and forgotten
15:07:55 <planetmaker> there are still the src bundles
15:09:26 <JVassie_> Terkhen, in the ToDo, there seems to be a missing table row for Var2AirportTiles, the text for it is floating underneath the main table
15:09:34 <Terkhen> woops :(
15:10:09 <Terkhen> cleaned :P
15:10:55 <JVassie_> ta
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15:57:20 <planetmaker> hm, I'm getting a feel for python regex
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15:58:38 <Terkhen> good or bad? :P
15:58:51 <planetmaker> different. But not bad
15:59:12 <planetmaker> mainly the (?... ) syntax confused the hell out of me
16:01:52 <Terkhen> huh... why a different syntax? most programs use the common one
16:02:07 <Terkhen> maybe it is not as complicated to use :P
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16:03:59 <planetmaker> it's a sort of extension / short-cut
16:04:27 <planetmaker> what exactly depends on the character(s) to follow after the ? ;-)
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16:30:32 <welshdragon> where can I get a listing of all the older versions?
16:30:47 <welshdragon> (in particular 1.0.5)
16:31:03 <welshdragon> I want to download it
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16:32:01 <Terkhen>
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17:17:42 <planetmaker> <-- I try to find lines which start with ABC, replace some stuff within them and then put them back into the original text
17:18:35 <planetmaker> obviously that doesn't work this way... what's the proper way to do that in python?
17:18:54 <planetmaker> actual goal: replace <something> in all lines which start with <something else>
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17:37:28 <Rubidium> Terkhen: just teach them<version> ;)
17:38:02 <Terkhen> oh, ok :)
17:45:21 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r22588 /trunk/src/lang/ (danish.txt korean.txt):
17:45:21 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:21 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: danish - 11 changes by majbom
17:45:21 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: korean - 3 changes by junho2813
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18:16:10 <Wolf01> hello
18:16:48 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
18:16:56 <welshdragon> I've just done something I've not done in a while
18:17:12 <Terkhen> planetmaker: <--- this is the wikised I'm using now :)
18:17:28 <welshdragon> CIA-10 will announce it soon :O
18:19:55 <Terkhen> huh... I don't understand this one at all:
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18:27:17 <frosch123> Terkhen: yes, new signals is a lost case
18:27:33 <Terkhen> I have just applied formatting and added an entry to the todo list
18:27:41 <Terkhen> I don't understand why that page talks about callbacks :S
18:27:44 <frosch123> it's a try to put everything in a single action5 instead of adding action1s
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18:28:45 <frosch123> Terkhen: new signals have no normal action2 to reference action1s, there are only callback results, which return indices into an action5
18:29:10 <frosch123> well, and there is also only one callback
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18:29:31 <frosch123> so the usual pages for action2, varaction2 and callbacks are merged into one page for signals :)
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18:29:40 <frosch123> because all is one
18:29:42 <Terkhen> quite confusing
18:29:57 <frosch123> not supported by ottd anyway :p
18:30:05 <frosch123> and not going to be ever supported either
18:30:09 <Terkhen> well, it's formatted now; it's up to someone else to clarify it if he wants to
18:30:14 <Terkhen> yes, I can understand why :P
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18:37:05 <Terkhen> when are temporary registers cleared? after finishing a varaction2?
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18:41:16 <Terkhen> hmm... source says "never"
18:43:38 <Terkhen> ah, found it in the specs; "values undefined"
18:49:46 <frosch123> yes, if you run expert's hard industries next to a grf which changes registers, it causes an infite loop :p
18:49:57 <frosch123> (which ottd detects since then :s)
18:50:07 <Terkhen> :O
18:50:27 <Terkhen> that newgrf seems to be a nice source of bugs
18:50:32 <frosch123> it does not initialise the 'call again' register of the industry production callback
18:51:49 <Terkhen> I'll emphasize even more that the temporary register is not to be trusted between different varaction2 :P
18:52:41 <Terkhen> I'm doing a new page describing storages, I couldn't think of a good place to describe how town persistent storage works (right now everything is scattered between different pages anyways)
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19:01:02 <frosch123> Terkhen: planetmaker. just skimmed the logs. it is very much intentional that the specs do not mention all 80+ variables
19:01:15 <Terkhen> hmm... why?
19:01:19 <frosch123> some variables were changed by ttdp and do not match the originals
19:01:31 <frosch123> and quite a lot are also very troublesome wrt. ottd features
19:01:48 <frosch123> so, the general consensus was to only document what is actually needed
19:02:11 <frosch123> ttdp reserved to itself to change any non documented variables to something else
19:02:28 <frosch123> while that does not matter for ottd, quite of them are a nuisance nevertheless
19:03:02 <Terkhen> hmm...
19:03:11 <Terkhen> it is a complicated issue, yes
19:03:33 <Terkhen> what should we do regarding openttd variables that are not documented in the specs?
19:03:44 <frosch123> are there any?
19:03:48 <frosch123> :o
19:04:41 <Terkhen> compare this with src/newgrf_town.cpp:
19:05:26 <Terkhen> I know that those are in the 80+ range that you mentioned, but there should be a way to know about them besides the source
19:06:40 <frosch123> well, as i said, 80+ variables are not documented intentional
19:06:46 <frosch123> towns are no exception to that
19:07:01 <Terkhen> hmm... not an ideal solution at all :/
19:07:22 <frosch123> e.g. what's the point of accessing the ratings of the first 8 companies?
19:07:35 <Terkhen> none, most of them make no sense
19:07:40 <frosch123> a grf does not know about companies, and there are also more than 8
19:07:45 <Terkhen> but it's the only way to access stuff like "number of houses"
19:08:00 <frosch123> thus "number of houses" is documented :)
19:08:30 <frosch123> if you put it like "everything which makes sense, should be documented", then that should be mostly the case
19:08:57 <Terkhen> oh, right
19:08:59 <Terkhen> it is in the table :P
19:09:19 <Terkhen> I was looking at the description only
19:09:29 <Terkhen> well, I guess we should make a note of this
19:09:57 <Terkhen> s/this/the decision regarding 80+ variables/
19:14:08 <frosch123> there could be some page about the meaning of the 00-3f, 40-5f, 60-7f, 80-ff variable ranges
19:15:17 <Terkhen> yes, the 80+ issue could be mentioned in that page :)
19:15:22 <Terkhen> I'll add another todo entry
19:19:14 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: frosch * r22589 /trunk/src/ (order_cmd.cpp order_func.h train_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#4641]: PBS order forecasting modified the current order index in case of a goto-nearest-depot order and no depot could be found.
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20:38:02 <planetmaker> frosch123: why no 80+x? So that they're not used by authors as they're expensive?
20:39:45 <frosch123> most of them are useless
20:39:53 <frosch123> some of them were changed by ttdp (and also ottd)
20:39:55 <planetmaker> right. Just reading backlog :-)
20:40:05 <frosch123> a lot do not work in ottd because of ottd features
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20:40:26 <frosch123> they cause trouble all the time, it is hard to support them
20:40:38 <Rubidium> planetmaker: e.g. some allow you to read pointers
20:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> if you put it like "everything which makes sense, should be documented", then that should be mostly the case <-- so if i have a valid case for accessing a certain variable, i need to document it, to make it fixed?
20:41:44 <planetmaker> frosch123: I still think it's worth documenting that actually. Even useless, obsolete or whatever
20:42:03 <planetmaker> but it should come with a strong note. Or on some extra page of obsolete variables
20:42:38 <planetmaker> hm, where's alberth when one needs him...
20:42:53 <Terkhen> strong notes are not known for deterring people from doing what they want to do :P
20:42:58 <frosch123> planetmaker: there is a item on the todo list
20:43:11 <Rubidium> industry variable 0x83: byte 2 of town pointer ;)
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20:43:27 <planetmaker> I need the python equivalent of sed "/ABC/s/nix als Verdruß/pure Freude/g"
20:43:33 <Terkhen> also, if they can change between openttd and ttdpatch, I'm not sure they should be in the specs
20:43:35 <frosch123> anyway, callbacks page done \o/
20:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: line.startswith("ABC")?
20:44:20 <planetmaker> yes
20:44:23 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: basically yes, but we will ban you if you add something stupid
20:44:23 <Terkhen> frosch123: nice :)
20:44:39 <Terkhen> broken table on cb29
20:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i meant that literally ;)
20:45:55 <Rubidium> oh... yes...
20:46:35 <Rubidium> we need company variable 0x2B6 + 0x80 ;)
20:46:39 <planetmaker> hm... let's see
20:46:54 <Rubidium> i.e. the current action the AI is executing
20:47:08 <Ammler> is it somehow obvious, what is spec, what is recommends only?
20:47:10 <frosch123> NewCompanies?
20:47:21 <Ammler> like cargo table
20:47:37 <frosch123> Ammler: the table of contents has a special sections for recommends
20:47:48 <Rubidium> frosch123: yeah, NewGRF controlled companies
20:47:54 <frosch123> but the stuff is likely not properly split yet
20:48:50 <Terkhen> :D
20:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: callback 18 ;)
20:49:04 <Terkhen> <--- how does this look?
20:49:24 <Terkhen> (it will need a cleanup of some pages that is not done yet)
20:50:47 <Terkhen> hmm... I think we need a style regarding hex numbers
20:51:04 <Terkhen> I used two in that page :P
20:51:34 <Eddi|zuHause> "what is a hex number is recognizable from context. or something"
20:51:56 <frosch123> Terkhen: "Size:FF" and "Size: 0F"
20:51:58 <Rubidium> Terkhen: I think the sizes are off-by-one
20:52:06 <frosch123> there are 256 registers in range 00 to FF
20:52:41 <frosch123> "Size" sounds if there are 255 registers
20:52:47 <Terkhen> true, access only to FF != size FF :)
20:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> why are callback numbers 40 to 13F "reserved"?
20:53:46 <frosch123> How about putting the escape sequences in the operator links?
20:54:06 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: because stupid grf authors used to only test the first byte of callbacks
20:54:23 <frosch123> so everything would break when 00-FF were used, as everyone would consider 100 as 00
20:54:49 <frosch123> thus, the byte-sized indices were skipped to kind of force them to use proper word tests
20:54:55 <Terkhen> :O
20:55:17 <frosch123> actually, afaik callback id was only a byte in the early days
20:55:51 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so also 200..23F will be skipped?
20:55:56 <frosch123> yes
20:56:12 <Terkhen> frosch123: Data storage: Operator 0E (sto) allows to store values inside the registers of this storage. <--- something like this?
20:56:32 <frosch123> include the \
20:56:43 <frosch123> so it is clear what it means
20:56:54 <frosch123> maybe also reverse Operator \sto (0E)
20:57:17 <Terkhen> ok :)
20:57:57 <frosch123> Features that support it: Industries (0A) <- and airports
20:57:59 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't it \2sto?
20:58:12 <frosch123> :o indeed
20:58:38 <Terkhen> I was wondering why all the escapes have that 2
20:58:58 <frosch123> well, those of action 7 have a 7 :)
20:59:00 <Yexo> to make sure they don't clash with the actionD and action7 escapes
20:59:09 <Eddi|zuHause> there are also \7 escapes, like \7GG
20:59:13 <frosch123> and there are \2< and \7<
20:59:16 <Terkhen> oh, ok :)
21:00:45 <Eddi|zuHause> basically someone was too lazy to drag the context with them when evaluating escapes :p
21:01:18 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: they are freely defineable nowdays
21:01:18 <Yexo> not too lazy, grfcodec supports them and knows _nothing_ about context
21:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, but it would have been possible (not necessarily easy or even sensible) to have grfcodec evaluate the context (whether it is currently in an action 2,6(?),7,9 or D
21:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> )
21:04:43 <Yexo> sure that is possible, however that introduces knowledge about the contents of nfo in grfcodec, as opposed to only knowledge about the format
21:04:48 <Terkhen> does it know what is an action?
21:05:03 <frosch123> it knows action FF
21:05:13 <frosch123> i.e. binary include sprites
21:05:28 <frosch123> but maybe that is no real action :)
21:05:31 <Terkhen> :P
21:05:34 <Yexo> and binary include files, is that action FE?
21:06:08 <frosch123> hmm? no FF
21:06:33 <Yexo> no, sprites are differently encoded from sound files
21:06:53 <frosch123> they are an FF action byte, then the filename, and the the data
21:07:16 <Yexo> oh, right :)
21:08:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so... i can manually put in action FF and after that a hexdumped real sprite?
21:08:44 <Yexo> IIRC you can do that file sound files, not so sure about real sprites
21:10:17 <frosch123> grfcodec does not care about the file content
21:10:18 <Yexo> no, real sprites don't start with FF, they start with the type
21:10:24 <frosch123> you can include anything :)
21:10:32 <frosch123> which does not exceed 64kB of course
21:11:24 <frosch123> oh, that way, sure it won't be considered a real sprite
21:12:35 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: my lines seem to be of length one character each. Unfortunately
21:12:56 <planetmaker> why ever ...
21:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> crazy idea #496: we need conditional action 4's so we can change spelling rules of german in 1901 and 1996 :p
21:13:24 <Yexo> you can have that, as long as you save/load your game in 1996 :)
21:14:15 <__ln__> if i asked why aren't there any trams with ottd by default, would i regret it?
21:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> we actually discussed changing vehicle names based on date, but i don't remember why we didn't do it
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21:14:54 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: to confusing for users?
21:15:46 <planetmaker> ah... one step further now :-)
21:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: the case would be DBSet engines which occasionally have two or three different names, one in the Länderbahn-era (before 1922), e.g prussian "P8", one in the DRG/early DB era, e.g. "BR 38", "BR E10", and one in the later DB era (UIC-conform), e.g. "BR 110"
21:18:59 <Terkhen> ok, town persistent storage is now documented :)
21:19:30 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: my point still stands: I think that would be _very_ confusing
21:21:19 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: thanks with the line.startswith. That got me on the right track
21:24:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: that's something a newgrf author can solve though.
21:25:36 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the BR 38 could be called "pr. P8" before 1922, and "BR 38 (ex. pr P8)" after 1922
21:25:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and the "BR E10" could be called "BR 110 (ex. E10)" after 1970
21:26:53 <Eddi|zuHause> or the east german "BR 132" could be called "BR 232 (ex DR 132)" after 1990
21:27:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the DBSet is actually full of these :p
21:27:45 <Eddi|zuHause> makes for looooooong discussions with MB over which is the right name :p
21:28:41 <frosch123> night
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21:34:23 <andythenorth> evenings
21:34:57 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
21:35:13 <andythenorth> "is it done yet?" :P
21:35:29 <Terkhen> yes, for certain definition of "it"
21:36:10 <Terkhen> <-- this is done for example
21:37:18 <Wolf01> 'night
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21:40:40 <planetmaker> ha... tables slowly seem to be fixed... getting somewhere :-)
21:40:49 <Terkhen> :)
21:42:12 <andythenorth> there's no regex that could do it en-masse?
21:43:05 <planetmaker> well... there is not a single one. But a chain of regex to treat stuff
21:45:47 <Terkhen> <--- only a handful of pages remain untouched :)
21:49:05 * Terkhen is going to finish the remaining action0
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22:01:09 <simbabque> hi there
22:01:40 <simbabque> i've got a couple of trains that accidently loaded oil at the station they were supposed to drop oil from another station of...
22:02:00 <simbabque> how can i tell them to loose their cargo permanently so they can start picking up oil at the proper station again?
22:02:42 <planetmaker> :-D and I wonder why my script suddently behaves differently
22:02:53 <planetmaker> Terkhen fixed my "test" page: Action0Industries ;-)
22:02:59 <Terkhen> oh :(
22:03:01 <Terkhen> sorry
22:03:06 <planetmaker> that's no har
22:03:08 <planetmaker> m
22:03:14 <planetmaker> any does
22:03:17 <planetmaker> and should do
22:03:35 <Terkhen> simbabque: I think that the fastest way is to send them to depot, sell them and buy new ones
22:03:43 <Yexo> simbabque: use "unload and no load" orders at that station
22:03:50 <Terkhen> make sure that the order in the second station is "no load"
22:03:57 <simbabque> i've got the no load now
22:04:01 <Yexo> the oil will be dropped and will remain at the station
22:04:21 <Terkhen> planetmaker: ok, which one should I left untouched? action0s are done now :P
22:04:48 <simbabque> ok, thanks
22:04:55 <planetmaker> action7
22:04:59 <simbabque> i'll try having them unload until there's nothing left
22:05:02 <planetmaker> it's lengthy anyway
22:05:14 <Terkhen> ok :)
22:05:49 * andythenorth -> bed
22:05:51 <Terkhen> I think that we can finish them today
22:05:52 <andythenorth> good night
22:05:54 <Terkhen> good night andythenorth
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22:06:38 <Terkhen> planetmaker: did you check the wikised I uploaded? it contains a few extra checks
22:07:06 <planetmaker> I looked at it. But I have not yet implemented it in the bot. Let's check action7 results. The first real test :-)
22:07:26 <planetmaker> hm... kinda failed :S
22:07:42 <Terkhen> hmm... failed how? wrong conversion?
22:08:33 <planetmaker> missing line break in tables
22:10:14 <simbabque> changing the directions temporarily worked... thanks a lot :)
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22:11:39 <planetmaker> oh... no. table start missing.
22:11:43 <planetmaker> not line breaks
22:12:14 <Terkhen> :/
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22:31:22 <Terkhen> good night
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22:36:28 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen
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22:41:07 <welshdragon> hmm
22:44:07 <Sacro> click
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23:08:49 <lordmwa> good evening everyone
23:09:23 <lordmwa> anyone got any ideas on this:
23:10:58 <Sacro> Good Evening lordmwa
23:11:22 <Sacro> sounds like an issue with TCP getting through
23:12:29 <Sacro> Using any firewall?
23:12:38 <lordmwa> sorted
23:12:44 <Sacro> I know :)
23:12:50 * Sacro chortles
23:13:01 <lordmwa> it was router port forwarding error
23:13:10 <lordmwa> it was inbound fine but not outbound
23:13:30 <Sacro> Hmm, strange, NAT should handle that
23:14:21 <lordmwa> i had set it to block UDP port 3797
23:15:12 <Sacro> Outbound?
23:15:16 <lordmwa> yes
23:15:27 <lordmwa> when i didnt need an outbound rule because it auto allows
23:15:33 <Sacro> Hmm, strange
23:16:40 <Sacro> Oh well, back to OpenTTD!
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