IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-12
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05:11:32 <Terkhen> good morning
05:31:14 <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
05:31:30 <supermop> hello
05:37:03 <planetmaker> moin
05:37:44 <supermop> hm have to drive to dc tomorrow, so, goodnight
05:38:02 <planetmaker> good night :-)
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06:51:01 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22554 /extra/website/ (4 files in 3 dirs): [Website] -Update: logo, bananas 'constants', types of packages
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08:13:21 <bodis> morning
08:13:32 <planetmaker> moin
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08:15:25 <peter1138> heh minecraft's moding api: the full source code
08:16:00 <andythenorth> shouldn't 'minecraft' result in automatic kban?
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08:16:15 <andythenorth> 'minecrack' is acceptable :P
08:17:42 * andythenorth prefers this sort of mining:
08:22:00 <peter1138> well you're silly
08:22:32 <andythenorth> I don't mind shaft when I'm mineshafting
08:23:11 <V453000> lol
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08:26:16 <andythenorth> "What I'm not is a friendly approachable person, so stay out me way and let me dig"
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08:54:15 <__ln__> there's quite a flaw in the big plot of The Event, imho...
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09:04:56 <Alberth> it does not happen?
09:05:46 <heffer> hey guys. most important patch for grfcodec EVER:
09:05:59 <heffer> (fixes the FSFs address in all license texts) :D
09:06:10 <heffer> + fixes the GPL 2.0
09:07:37 <heffer> aaaand it has some sed fail in it :D
09:07:40 <heffer> lemme fix that :D
09:09:08 <Alberth> heffer:
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09:14:37 <heffer> Alberth:
09:15:17 <Alberth> ok :) I am not in that project, but I am sure the owners will appreciate your efforts
09:15:38 <heffer> i know they will ;)
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09:27:21 <Alberth> heffer: do you have a source for this change? It might be useful to link to that as reference
09:28:21 <heffer> added it to the ticket :)
09:28:51 <heffer> our rpm checking tool somehow now also checks for the FSFs address :D
09:29:01 <Alberth> thank you
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09:31:06 <Wolf01> hello
09:31:21 <Alberth> hello Wolf01
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10:02:22 <Rubidium> didn't those address like change last millenium?
10:04:26 <andythenorth> snow is interestink
10:04:35 <andythenorth> some default buildings have it on the roof only
10:04:41 <andythenorth> others on roof + ground
10:04:56 <andythenorth> somebody has cleaned snow from their office lawn :P
10:05:07 <planetmaker> yup :-P
10:05:14 <planetmaker> they do that. Install a lawn heating
10:05:23 <planetmaker> for outdoor golf on the green in winter.
10:05:32 <planetmaker> Too much money all those tycoons :-P
10:05:37 <Terkhen> yes, completely realistic :)
10:05:42 <planetmaker> :-D
10:06:16 <V453000> :d
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10:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure football stadiums do have lawn heatings
11:11:22 * andythenorth has a valid case for extended tile layout :)
11:11:28 <andythenorth> but is wondering about documentation :P
11:12:48 <Alberth> do I want to know what extended tile layout is about?
11:13:11 <andythenorth> of course you do ;)
11:13:42 <Alberth> interesting, this extended tile layout, can you tell more about it?
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11:13:47 <andythenorth> @22518
11:13:55 <andythenorth> @DorpsGek 22518
11:13:57 <andythenorth> meh
11:14:00 <Terkhen> @commit 22518
11:14:00 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Commit by frosch :: r22518 /trunk/src (13 files in 2 dirs) (2011-05-29 16:56:22 UTC)
11:14:01 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: -Feature: [NewGRF] Advanced sprite layouts with register modifiers.
11:15:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: it is called "Advanced Sprite Layout" now, "Extended Sprite Layout" was already used
11:15:59 <frosch123> and it also fits nicely with AdvVarAct2 which also deals with registers :)
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11:19:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: ttdp wiki needs specs updating?
11:20:04 <frosch123> yes, still :)
11:20:24 <andythenorth> can we copy-paste anything?
11:20:24 <frosch123> but as I already told you: the existing pages need restructuring first
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11:20:32 <frosch123> they are too much of a mess to add something new
11:20:36 <andythenorth> oh yes
11:21:15 <frosch123> i'll do that when i am in the mood to do it
11:21:37 <andythenorth> ok
11:21:50 <andythenorth> in the meantime, I use the src as documentation?
11:22:51 <frosch123> no,
11:23:22 <andythenorth> okey cokey
11:23:24 <andythenorth> thanks
11:23:28 <frosch123> i also started on nforenum
11:23:51 <frosch123> first did action0 as i thought that would be the annoying part, finished that, and then discovered that the action2 part is more annoying :s
11:24:11 <andythenorth> will nforenum sulk if I try and use this?
11:27:19 <frosch123> it will not understand it :)
11:31:28 <andythenorth> that is an argument against writing that code today :P
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11:38:48 <Alberth> why, I can write code for days without testing whether a tool understands it :p
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11:42:30 * andythenorth ....can't
11:42:38 <andythenorth> :P
11:43:23 <Terkhen> I need constant testing, otherwise I end up doing something stupid :P
11:48:07 <andythenorth> one day I will understand bounding boxes
11:48:14 <andythenorth> meanwhile I just cross my fingers + hope
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11:57:16 <andythenorth> industry var 66
11:57:38 <andythenorth> I assumed that checking it was <100d would give me industries located within 10 tiles of town sign
11:57:48 <andythenorth> instead I get more like ~20 tiles
11:57:51 <andythenorth> which maths do I fail?
11:58:31 <Terkhen> maybe it uses manhattan distance instead of euclidean distance
11:58:37 <andythenorth>
11:58:47 <Terkhen> oh, it doesn't :P
11:59:01 <andythenorth> unless I need to nibble some of the result
11:59:39 <andythenorth> I'm checking it as a word
11:59:45 <andythenorth> no shift
11:59:58 <andythenorth>
12:00:04 <Terkhen> from checking the code it seems that you only need the last nibble, the first nibble is the town radius group
12:00:34 <andythenorth> ignore the comments on my paste, some are wrong
12:01:19 * andythenorth spots a mistake though
12:01:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: you should only check the lower 16 bits
12:01:30 <andythenorth> and my param will be all wrong :P
12:01:35 <andythenorth> copy and paste fail :P
12:02:25 <andythenorth> I was offsetting from N tile by whatever industry ID was
12:02:29 <andythenorth> interestink
12:03:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: lower 16 bits?
12:03:29 <andythenorth> 2 bytes?
12:03:31 <frosch123> yes, andmask of 0xFFFF
12:03:56 <andythenorth> this is my (fixed) code
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12:04:03 <andythenorth> not sure it's entirely doing what it should yet
12:06:28 <frosch123> not sure what you define with THIS_DISTANCE_LIMIT_SQUARED
12:06:39 <frosch123> but you should put the \w not in the define
12:07:13 <andythenorth> that won't work, the CPP will stumble on it
12:07:17 <andythenorth> sadly :(
12:07:20 <andythenorth> it's a PITA
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12:12:31 <Alberth> the joys of using software in ways it is not meant to be used :)
12:12:47 <andythenorth> hmm
12:13:02 <andythenorth> it would be useful to be able to print some top level debug information from the game
12:13:18 <andythenorth> e.g. for each industry type, the enabled cbs etc
12:13:37 <andythenorth> I can manually inspect, but that's somewhat painful with ~ 40 types
12:13:57 <andythenorth> I guess I could write something locally to parse the pnfo
12:14:04 <andythenorth> but that only benefits FIRS
12:14:29 <andythenorth> FIRS development gets ever slower as there's so much to check isn't broken
12:14:35 <andythenorth> and no way of automatically testing :P
12:24:05 <andythenorth> hmm
12:24:29 <andythenorth> 'newgame FIRS build_only brewery'
12:24:35 <andythenorth> might be useful
12:24:39 <andythenorth> maybe not
12:24:44 <andythenorth> the probabilities would go nuts
12:30:20 <andythenorth> is there a method to allow industry to overbuild houses?
12:30:34 <andythenorth> besides special flags 8h, 10h, and 20h
12:30:48 <andythenorth> which do more than just allow overbuilding houses
12:30:53 <Alberth> banks and water towers do it, so I guess there is :)
12:31:08 <andythenorth> they use custom code in industry_cmd.cpp iirc
12:31:39 <Alberth> that could be the case
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12:34:56 <Bilge> andythenorth I am playing using FIRS
12:35:40 <Bilge> I don't really understand these things like building supplies
12:36:02 <Bilge> They just disappear into thin air unless you have something to receive them constantly the second a delivery arrives
12:37:51 <Bilge> Also all quarries seem to be linked
12:38:03 <Bilge> They all produce 90/90 sand/stone maximum and the only time I saw it drop they all dropped in unison
12:38:05 <Bilge> Why?
12:38:20 <andythenorth> short month
12:38:41 <Bilge> I think it was because of recession
12:38:51 <Bilge> But the point is there seems to be very little variance between the industries
12:39:01 <andythenorth> FIRS ignores recessions
12:39:17 <Bilge> Unlike base TTD where there are good and bad performing industries in each sector
12:39:58 <andythenorth> Bilge:
12:40:35 <Bilge> Added by andythenorth about 1 year ago
12:40:38 <Bilge> real
12:41:14 <andythenorth> yarp
12:41:59 <andythenorth> there's been about 1100 FIRS commits since then
12:42:10 <andythenorth> but none of them fixed the production randomisation
12:42:52 <Bilge> And neither will the next 1100
12:43:32 <Bilge> They'll just be memos in the comments to order more beer
12:44:27 <Terkhen> sure
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12:49:12 <Alberth> Bilge: comments like that are completely useless; accept how it behaves, stop using it, or help fixing it
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13:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> # Wieso, wieso bin immer ich der Idiot
13:47:08 <Eddi|zuHause> # Und warum, warum haben andere, nich ich, die Millionen
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15:20:37 <haukinger> hi all
15:21:12 <Terkhen> hi haukinger
15:21:55 <haukinger> question about the code: what are the preconditions for DoCommandP ?
15:23:06 <Eddi|zuHause> use DoCommandP from gui code/user interaction, and use DoCommand from within DoCommandP
15:23:35 <haukinger> I tried to invoke a command on a vehicle in LoadUnloadStation, and it doesn't work because of _current_company being set wrong
15:24:03 <frosch123> LoadUnloadStation is part of the gameloop, use DoCommand there
15:24:19 <frosch123> DoCommandP sends stuff to the server, i.e. there is no immediate execution
15:24:20 <haukinger> ok, I'm trying this
15:24:33 <haukinger> I copy-pasted the command code, but that gives desyncs
15:24:55 <Terkhen> every client and the server have the same code?
15:25:41 <haukinger> yes
15:26:10 <haukinger> and it works if I run two instances on one machine
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15:31:42 <Terkhen> haukinger: that code is being executed for stations of all companies, and you should not send commands as another company
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16:45:16 <planetmaker> [13:20] frosch123 but as I already told you: the existing pages need restructuring first <-- is it a good idea to create a new server where we can transition the newgrf wiki to? It will be quite easy to setup one with whatever we like
16:45:41 <planetmaker> Then we can do the transition and switch it officially when the boring transition work is done
16:45:46 <planetmaker> good evening also :-)
16:45:53 <Alberth> evenink planetmaker
16:46:02 <planetmaker> I just thought this noon about creating a VM for that purpose
16:46:20 <planetmaker> question only is: what wiki do we want?
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16:47:33 <Alberth> something with a proper vcs behind it, imho
16:48:12 <Alberth> i am not even sure you should want a wiki
16:48:20 <planetmaker> Ignorant of the different pros and cons of the different wikis as I am, I'd pick media wiki on grounds that both OpenTTD and #openttdcoop wiki use it
16:48:40 <planetmaker> wiki worked quite well for NewGRF specs
16:48:54 <planetmaker> as long as it's a separate wiki
16:49:36 <planetmaker> what would you suggest instead of a wiki, Alberth ?
16:49:44 <bodis> If I am transfering a save file from one pc to another, do I need to activate same NewGRF's or do they only need to be present in data directory?
16:50:08 <planetmaker> just copy the savegame. It knows which NewGRFs it wants
16:50:15 <bodis> k
16:50:16 <planetmaker> main menu newgrf selection has no impact on that
16:50:43 <bodis> ok ty
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16:52:16 <Alberth> a vcs project with some plain text format, eg restructured text
16:52:18 <frosch123> planetmaker: i took a look at some wiki softwares some weeks ago
16:52:46 <frosch123> considering the requirements a unified wiki for ottd + specs would need, mediawiki is the only option
16:52:48 <Alberth> how many people edit the specs currently?
16:52:56 <Terkhen> Alberth: who would have access to that vcs?
16:53:04 <frosch123> there are a lot of wikis out there with some interesting features, but most are unmaintained
16:53:41 <frosch123> actually only mediawiki and tikiwiki looked maintained at all (considering those with a minimum feature set)
16:53:55 <Alberth> Terkhen: anybody that wants to change newgrf specs and knows what he is doing?
16:54:12 * andythenorth would prefer a better system, but thinks we'll end up with a wiki :P
16:54:21 <andythenorth> because it's most likely to be maintained
16:54:27 <Terkhen> and who determines "who knows what he is doing"? :P
16:54:49 <Alberth> devs of ttdpatch and openttd?
16:54:59 <Alberth> most things need program changes anyway
16:55:39 <Alberth> or are there other people that make useful contributions to a formal spec outside that group?
16:55:45 <frosch123> anyway, we cannot just transition to a new wiki... the worst would be two places with the specs. so if there is something new, the old one must be shut down
16:55:48 <orudge> The plan for TT-Wiki is to use MediaWiki
16:55:50 <Terkhen> but other people have also been correcting and extending stuff... IMO a wiki that enforces being registered would be enough
16:55:51 <frosch123> which i do not see quite happening
16:55:58 <orudge> and the original TTDPatch wiki was to be merged into that
16:56:16 <orudge> What is it you lot are plotting?
16:56:41 <Alberth> take over the world, of course
16:56:44 <orudge> quite
16:57:01 <andythenorth> I see well made things made with
16:58:19 <Terkhen> orudge: that it would be nice to have a new place for hosting the specs
16:58:51 <andythenorth> sphinx appears well used by some major python projects
16:58:54 <andythenorth> it's probably maintained
16:59:03 <orudge> Terkhen: well, as I say, it seems to me that the best plan for that is for it to become part of this new integrated wiki. Plans for that have kind of stalled, though, but if what you're plotting is to involve the OpenTTD wiki too, then it sounds like you might be doing my work for you ;)
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16:59:22 <orudge> in which case I'm happy to provide hosting and integration with the forum database, which of course was the other major thing that was desired for the wiki
16:59:40 <Terkhen> hmm... not really, IMO the openttd wiki should stay separated
17:00:04 <planetmaker> orudge: Only a subset of the current TTDP wiki would belong to the NewGRF wiki
17:00:05 <andythenorth> I'm not sure how much is gained from wide-open editing of newgrf specs
17:00:15 <orudge> planetmaker: well, true
17:00:18 <andythenorth> i.e. the number of people who can usefully contribute is limited
17:00:54 <planetmaker> and, indeed, orudge, separate sign-on for the NewGRF wiki is IMHO desirable. I.e. forum account should not automatically give edit rights there
17:01:54 <orudge> planetmaker: hmm, well, it would seem that having a unified user database would still be desirable, but possibly with a restricted group for editing certain pages (or even the whole thing)
17:01:57 <planetmaker> the reasons there actually is the inconvenience it means :-)
17:02:12 <orudge> is there actually much/any abuse of the existing TTDPatch wiki though?
17:02:13 <planetmaker> the newgrf wiki is the specs. Which not everyone should edit
17:02:14 <orudge> I hadn't really noticed any
17:02:33 <planetmaker> neither me. But I *think* the reason is that it is indeed a separate wiki
17:02:38 <orudge> hmm
17:02:39 <orudge> well
17:02:41 <planetmaker> Anyone can sign up. But it's a separate step :-)
17:02:54 <planetmaker> Maybe I'm mistaken or too cautious
17:03:03 <Terkhen> as long as edit is protected it does not matter who registers
17:03:15 <planetmaker> But I gathered that I'm not alone with the reservation to grant everyone (easy) edit rights there
17:03:23 <Terkhen> and right now the specs are not protected at all and I don't remember any issue with abuse
17:03:44 <orudge> it may be desirable to solicit feedback on this on the forums, at any rate, for the three people who exclusively work with TTDPatch or whatever :P
17:03:48 <Terkhen> I agree on that point, but IMO it should not be restricted to TTDPatch / OpenTTD devs
17:04:06 <Terkhen> yes, that's a good idea :)
17:04:13 <orudge> I would suggest that anonymous editing would definitely be disabled
17:04:14 <planetmaker> no, definitely not. Pikka, mb, andy, george, etc are valuable editors there
17:04:20 <planetmaker> yes
17:04:24 <Terkhen> indeed
17:04:31 <orudge> to me, it seems sensible to leave things unprotected, but if there's a problem, then things can be restricted further
17:04:35 <orudge> but maybe that's just me :)
17:05:01 <planetmaker> I don't mind unprotected :-)
17:05:05 <planetmaker> I'm for that
17:05:26 <planetmaker> (but logged in, of course)
17:05:30 <orudge> yes
17:06:11 <planetmaker> politically feasible is probably only that you host the NewGRF wiki
17:06:26 <orudge> well, I could definitely set up a or somesuch
17:06:31 <planetmaker> if it'd run on Ammler's and my server, I guess a certain share of people would not accept that
17:06:41 <planetmaker> though I'd be happy to host it
17:06:43 <orudge> and import the existing newgrf pages from the ttdpatch wiki (which can then be edited or reorganised)
17:06:55 <planetmaker> we have capacity and means to easily do that
17:06:57 <orudge> or you can import them manually if desired
17:07:09 <andythenorth> I'm not worried about abuse :) That hasn't happened so far.
17:07:09 <orudge> mmh, I don't think there's a problem with hosting really :)
17:07:25 <andythenorth> I'm mostly concerned about having to use crappy software for documenation :P
17:07:36 <planetmaker> :-)
17:07:59 <Yexo> the scope of such a wiki would have to be clearly defined however
17:08:03 <planetmaker> Actually I'm worried about that the old wiki will not go offline
17:08:05 <Terkhen> IMO the newgrf specs should be a completely separate wiki... right now it is not clear what belongs to the specs and what not
17:08:14 <planetmaker> That's my biggest worry
17:08:36 <orudge> planetmaker: well, what I could do in conjuction is move the other TTDPatch wiki pages to the new forums wiki
17:08:44 <orudge> (and OpenTTD can keep its own wiki, which probably is best anyway)
17:08:48 <orudge> and then just officially close the old tikiwiki
17:08:54 <planetmaker> Terkhen: so two wikis: specs and newgrf programming wiki?
17:08:56 <Yexo> planetmaker: all spec pages on the old wiki could be cleaned and a redirect added, that shouldn't be a problem
17:09:02 <Terkhen> I think that tutorials and stuff like that do not belong with the specs, although it would also be nice to have them
17:09:06 <Terkhen> planetmaker: IMO yes
17:09:17 <planetmaker> probably a good idea
17:09:25 <Yexo> hard to draw the line between them sometimes
17:09:30 <Yexo> take the "CargoTypes" page
17:09:34 <planetmaker> yeah
17:09:36 <Terkhen> true
17:09:36 <Yexo> is that spec or just general consensus?
17:09:42 <Yexo> same for RailTypes page
17:10:07 <planetmaker> it _seems_ that cargotypes is specs and railtypes concensus at best. But... yes
17:10:12 <Terkhen> I'd say that the default cargos part is spec, the rest is consensus
17:10:20 <Rubidium> I'd make a spec wiki for nfo, a spec page (directly from hg) for nml and a general wiki with the stuff that transcends everything
17:10:40 <planetmaker> Terkhen: but then looking in two wikis for that basic thing you need for programming a vehicle is... inconvenient
17:10:45 <Rubidium> i.e. tutorials, general best use, used grfids, used cargo types, ...
17:10:52 <andythenorth> API spec is API spec
17:10:55 <andythenorth> tutorials are tutorials
17:11:05 <andythenorth> one can link the other, but they are not same
17:11:05 <Ammler> the newgrf spec could be added to grfcrawler
17:11:08 <Rubidium> where the spec and nml refer to the general wiki
17:11:10 <Ammler> grfcodec I meant
17:11:23 <Ammler> (no wiki)
17:11:28 * Terkhen agrees with Rubidium
17:11:40 <andythenorth> what currently irritates me is that code examples are generally banned from spec. This is not how other languages do it
17:12:14 <Ammler> ah, like Rubi suggested :-)
17:12:21 <Rubidium> examples are vital, but IMO the spec should have example snippets; not all encompassing examples
17:12:29 <andythenorth> yes
17:12:32 <andythenorth> exactly that
17:12:40 <andythenorth> it's what the 'pre' tag was invented for :P
17:12:42 <Rubidium> those belong more to the general wiki, although! the spec should refer to the general wiki
17:13:06 <planetmaker> sounds viable
17:13:15 <Rubidium> e.g. if there are 2 'big' examples using industry animation speed, it would be useful to refer to there
17:13:17 <planetmaker> even though drawing the line will not always be easy
17:15:36 <Rubidium> if it has multiple pseudo sprites and adding an action 8 + graphics would make it a somewhat working NewGRF you're too far (I'd say)
17:16:28 <planetmaker> for the specs wiki, yes
17:17:16 <Rubidium> yep, the general wiki should (mostly) contain (almost) working examples
17:18:04 <Rubidium> alternatively the NewGRF spec becomes a hg repository with htmls like the NML spec
17:18:26 <andythenorth> I would vastly prefer a documentation system to a wiki
17:18:46 <Rubidium> and we generously give those that we know have actual knowledge accounts
17:19:00 <Rubidium> andythenorth: docbook or so?
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17:19:25 <andythenorth> I'm a satisfied reader of
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17:19:33 <andythenorth> although I haven't used it to add any content
17:20:17 <orudge> I would possibly argue that something more universally "standard", such as docbook, may be better
17:20:23 <orudge> that looks rather like it is geared towards Python
17:20:38 <andythenorth> possibly too much so
17:20:57 <frosch123> why do you consider access protection so important?
17:21:12 <frosch123> i don't see random people messing with the specs
17:21:22 <andythenorth> orudge: the chances of finding anything with code highlighting support for nfo is...well make your own bet :P
17:21:28 <Alberth> restructured text? more lightweight
17:21:53 <frosch123> otoh i see very restrictive rules on the current ttdp wiki, e.g. how hard it is to get something into the table of contents
17:22:12 <Yexo> the current ttpd wiki is imo too strict
17:22:26 <orudge> andythenorth: well, quite. :P But docbook, texinfo, etc, are generally easier for the majority of people to get and use, I imagine, rather than something they've never heard of before that requires them to faff with Python. But that's perhaps my own general dislike of things that require me to faff with Python coming through. I never get on well with them. :P
17:22:38 <Alberth> what about bundling current contents in a tarball?
17:22:50 <andythenorth> orudge: it parses reST as far as I can see
17:22:56 <andythenorth> it = sphinx
17:23:00 <frosch123> Alberth: noone wants an offline spec
17:23:10 <frosch123> 90% of the time it is linked from irc or the forums
17:23:14 <Yexo> I sometimes would like that :)
17:23:16 <Rubidium> sphinx seems to be focussd on files (modules) and method, and especially the latter doesn't exist in nfo
17:23:16 <Alberth> ok :)
17:23:29 <andythenorth> any others using reST?
17:23:31 <Yexo> it's quite useful to be able to do something while in a train without internet
17:23:34 <Rubidium> so I don't think sphinx is really useful, and neither are similar tools such as javadoc
17:23:41 <orudge> the TTDPatch manual at least used to be available in an assortment of offline formats, updated in a tarball nightly from the wiki (including, I presume, the newgrf specs)
17:23:44 <orudge> but I think that got broken some time ago
17:23:52 <frosch123> orudge: it still works
17:23:56 <orudge> oh, does it?
17:24:10 <Alberth> but html diffs are impossible :p
17:24:11 * andythenorth -> baby bath
17:24:12 <frosch123> but adding files to it, is as restriction heavy as adding to the toc :)
17:24:13 <andythenorth> bbl
17:24:37 <frosch123> so, i do not see any point in using something other than mediawiki :)
17:25:03 <Alberth> I can live with that option too
17:25:08 <Yexo> me too
17:25:26 <frosch123> just give access to everyone
17:26:30 <frosch123> random people only edit pages with titles like "suggestion", "roadmap" etc. but nothing with "property 13" :p
17:26:53 <Yexo> as long as there is a clear description of what the wiki is for, like "specs only, no big examples, no grf-specific documentation"
17:27:43 <planetmaker> [19:23] frosch123 Alberth: noone wants an offline spec <-- the ttdp wiki is available for offline use as tar download
17:27:56 <planetmaker> I have it, if I need it when I have no wifi
17:28:15 <frosch123> planetmaker: and? does it contain all files?
17:28:25 <planetmaker> yes, everything I needed was there
17:28:31 <planetmaker> up to the date I downloaded
17:28:40 <frosch123> afaik it contains only stuff linked from the table of contents
17:28:48 <planetmaker> it's quite some month ago I updated that, but yes
17:28:49 <frosch123> e.g. not the page about refitting
17:29:03 <planetmaker> I don't know, it's not like I extensively used it
17:29:38 <Terkhen> having an offline version is nice, but I couldn't live without an online version :P
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17:45:30 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r22555 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt korean.txt norwegian_nynorsk.txt):
17:45:30 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:30 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: dutch - 32 changes by Parody
17:45:30 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by junho2813
17:45:30 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 27 changes by 2rB
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18:00:26 <orudge> There's currently nothing on it, but:
18:00:28 <orudge> Linked to the forum DB, only forum members can log in and edit. Nothing else done to it so far, but I could import the TTDPatch pages and we can see what might want doing. Plus any extensions that need installing can be installed.
18:04:19 <planetmaker> orudge: if you could do a (crude, if you want) import thereof, it'd be great
18:04:32 <planetmaker> I assume it could then become the specs wiki only?
18:04:36 <orudge> planetmaker: yep
18:04:43 <orudge> that's the intention
18:04:50 <Bilge> norwegs
18:04:57 <planetmaker> good. Thus all unneeded stuff can go to the trash bin.
18:05:26 <orudge> brb
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18:45:47 <orudge> Ugh, George's Russian pages are breaking this conversion script. (It seems that the easiest thing to do is to convert the whole wiki, and then just copy over the appropriate pages to the specs wiki)
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18:57:30 <planetmaker> yes. The Russian pages are anyway not part of the NewGRF specs, but of the ECS readme
18:57:55 <orudge> Indeed.
18:58:48 <orudge> 559 pages comprising 2979 revisions
18:58:56 <planetmaker> many :-)
18:59:07 <planetmaker> So, you don't mind if I starte with a rigerous delete orgy?
18:59:11 <orudge> well
18:59:18 <orudge> what I've done while you weren't looking
18:59:23 <orudge> is different to now
18:59:30 <orudge> so, these are all going to be imported into
18:59:38 <orudge> I'll then export the newgrf spec pages from that into
18:59:40 <planetmaker> please elaborate
18:59:45 <planetmaker> ah
18:59:50 <planetmaker> so twice basically
18:59:54 <orudge> because it's easier than trying to do it using my converter
18:59:56 <orudge> from tikiwiki
19:00:02 <planetmaker> and the stuff which doesn't belong gets deleted respectively?
19:00:05 <orudge> yep
19:00:10 <orudge> will then be the new home of the TTDPatch wiki, and the tt-forums wiki
19:00:13 <planetmaker> yep, that's what I expected actually :-)
19:00:23 <orudge> and (or, whatever you want to call it :P) can be the new specs wiki
19:01:01 <planetmaker> ?
19:01:14 <orudge> seems a bit of a mouthful
19:01:18 <orudge> but maybe that's just me
19:01:26 <planetmaker> hm, you're right with that
19:01:32 <orudge> I've internally called it "GRFSpecs", because that's the only thing I could come up with that looked nice
19:01:36 <orudge> NewGRFSpecs seems a bit long
19:01:40 <planetmaker> I just tried to find a descriptive but not mis-leading name
19:01:42 <orudge> mmh
19:01:50 <planetmaker> grfspec, why not?
19:02:12 <planetmaker> hm... though...
19:02:20 <Alberth> it's not like it is new any more :p
19:02:54 <Alberth> just keep the long name imho
19:02:59 <planetmaker> what was Rubidium's suggestion earlier? A specs wiki and then another one where examples and non-spec descriptions go. But those could be sub-pages of the tt-wiki itself
19:03:01 <orudge> NewGRFs have been around for more than half of the time TTD has been around for, now, I think :p
19:03:11 <orudge> planetmaker: yes, I think they could be part of the TT Wiki
19:03:20 <Terkhen> grfspecs is fine imo :)
19:03:21 <orudge> too many wikis might just get confusing
19:03:26 <planetmaker> yep
19:03:31 <Alberth> but leaving out 'new' would confuse everybody
19:03:32 <planetmaker> and they share much stuff anyway
19:03:45 <orudge> Alberth: it'd still be referred to as the "NewGRF Specs" on the site
19:03:47 <orudge> it's just the URL
19:04:11 <planetmaker>
19:04:13 <planetmaker> hm...
19:04:16 <planetmaker> but would fit better
19:04:27 <Alberth> does anybody know the default template of hg log?
19:04:30 <planetmaker> and doesn't exactly hurt either
19:05:15 <orudge> that could work, I guess
19:13:07 <orudge> planetmaker: <-- are you wanting everything on that page, or just GRFActionsDetailed and AdditionalReference?
19:13:14 <orudge> (ie, ignore the GRFTutorial)
19:15:01 <planetmaker> the tutorial goes to the tt-wiki directly
19:15:04 <planetmaker> specs is specs
19:15:06 <orudge> right
19:15:06 <orudge> it's already there
19:15:09 <orudge> that's fine
19:15:51 <planetmaker> what could stay are the fundamental graphics things like palettes + coordinates
19:15:57 <planetmaker> they're part of the specs IMHO
19:16:06 <orudge> well
19:16:10 <planetmaker> but it'll need weeding through
19:16:12 <orudge> we can pull those over later if appropriate
19:16:13 <planetmaker> in detail
19:16:18 <planetmaker> yep. Or just copy
19:16:22 <planetmaker> manually
19:16:27 <planetmaker> it's not that much
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19:18:26 <frosch123> the tuturial contains a lot of explaination, parts of it could as well go to additonal reference
19:18:37 <frosch123> so, maybe copy them too, so they can be manually get split?
19:18:57 <orudge> well, everything's in tt-wiki now
19:19:01 <orudge> so they can be exported easily if need be
19:19:21 <planetmaker> ok. And the spec subset in
19:19:26 <planetmaker> Because that did time out yet
19:19:28 <orudge> it will be in a minute
19:19:31 <planetmaker> ok :-)
19:19:34 <orudge> well, at the moment
19:19:38 <orudge> but it can be changed at a later date
19:19:40 <planetmaker> ok
19:19:55 <planetmaker> newgrf sounds too generic for my taste
19:20:04 <orudge> mmh, well, I can update that :)
19:20:12 <planetmaker> the user-side pages could get that as an alias
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19:20:38 <planetmaker> i.e. a kind of newgrf - developer's landing page within
19:20:43 <orudge> yep
19:22:40 <Ammler> Alberth: ui.logtemplate
19:25:30 <orudge> OK, all done:
19:25:45 <orudge> note that most pages will require a good bit of reformatting, unfortunately, but that's pretty much unavoidable
19:25:52 <planetmaker> hm, my DNS doesn't know it yet
19:26:11 <andythenorth> he
19:26:22 <andythenorth> all the table formatting might be lost :D
19:26:23 <orudge> / 2a02:1680:0:1:2:1:1:7001
19:26:25 <andythenorth> fun awaits
19:26:30 <orudge> andythenorth: not might, is :)
19:26:42 <orudge> well, it's recognisable I suppose in the edit mode
19:26:50 <orudge> but it renders horribly
19:27:02 <orudge> the existing ttdpatch wiki is still up, in read-only mode at the moment
19:27:09 <Alberth> Ammler: I don't have that file, and that name is also not in the python source. I want to add a '{svnrev}' to it.
19:27:10 <Terkhen> VarAction2Cities --> VarAction2Towns? :)
19:27:26 <andythenorth> :o
19:27:31 <Terkhen> nice :)
19:27:34 <andythenorth> media wiki supports real html
19:27:37 <andythenorth> I didn't know that :o
19:28:02 <orudge> It's quite likely that you may end up wanting some MediaWiki extensions
19:28:05 <Ammler> [21:27] <Alberth> Ammler: I don't have that file, and that name is also not in the python source. I want to add a '{svnrev}' to it. <-- needs hgsubversion
19:28:12 <orudge> I'll also look into sorting out sysops the like on the wiki
19:28:26 <Alberth> I have that, and a svn repo too :)
19:28:33 <Ammler> then what is the issue?
19:28:47 <Alberth> hg log does not show the svn revision
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19:29:41 <Alberth> hg log --template "{rev}:{svnrev}\\n" <- is what I do currently, but that does not show the full log message
19:30:31 <planetmaker> with that URL I get the tt-forums
19:30:37 <planetmaker> s/URL/IP/
19:30:41 <orudge> planetmaker: I meant for you to add to your /etc/hosts :)
19:30:46 <orudge> or %windir%\system32\drivers\etc\hosts
19:30:48 <frosch123> orudge: there are lots of pages missing
19:30:59 <orudge> frosch123: if you make a list, I can copy those over
19:30:59 <orudge> they'll be at
19:31:01 <Alberth> Ammler: so I can make my own version of the default template, or use what already exists. I'd prefer the latter :)
19:31:08 <planetmaker> oh
19:31:12 <orudge> frosch123: I got everything from the TOC for the newgrf specs page, at least
19:31:13 <frosch123> e.g. the pages about action 0 default properties, or vehicle refitting
19:31:19 <frosch123> is there some special page about broken links?
19:31:24 <orudge> if they weren't on the TOC, they weren't copied
19:32:12 <frosch123> orudge:
19:32:14 <frosch123> your list :)
19:32:19 <orudge> :)
19:32:28 <orudge> although, some of those are tutorials, etc
19:32:30 <orudge> which weren't to be copied
19:32:40 <orudge> indeed, it looks like most of them are
19:32:51 <Alberth> and some may be wanted originally :)
19:33:12 <frosch123> some places just reference those pages for a detailed explaination
19:33:28 <frosch123> of course they can be manually copied
19:33:28 <orudge> then they should link externally to the tt-wiki, probably
19:33:52 <Ammler> Alberth: well, the templates are editable, but it seems like it doesn't accept svnrev
19:34:14 <Alberth> which file is that?
19:34:28 <Ammler> e.g. mercurial/templates/map-cmdline.default
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19:35:54 <Alberth> Ammler: thanks, this will do nicely, I just make a 'svnlog' alias with an adapted template.
19:37:41 <Ammler> Alberth: or as I said, add logtemplate="svnrevision: {svnrev}\nchangeset: {rev}:{node|short}\n{branches}{bookmarks}{tags}{parents}user: {author}\ndate: {date|date}\nsummary: {desc|firstline}\n\n" to .hgrc
19:38:02 <Ammler> or whatever :-)
19:38:45 <Alberth> oh, that's even better :)
19:39:13 <Ammler> I didn't have hgsubversion activated as I tested the first time
19:42:29 <Ammler> Alberth: it is a bit strange that hg convert does add svnrev, but you need hgsubversion to read it
19:45:13 <Alberth> Ammler: I only use hgsubversion
19:45:56 <Ammler> yep, but doesn't
19:46:55 <Alberth> I have a local mirror of opendune :p
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19:49:21 <Alberth> and has nicely added the svn revisions in the log text :)
19:49:53 <Ammler> hmm, can you push to with those repo?
19:51:12 <Alberth> I haven't tried that, and doing such a test on a public repo doesn't seem a very smart move :)
19:51:40 <planetmaker> orudge: is the TOC available as wikipage itself?
19:51:56 <orudge> planetmaker: not as such, it's autogenerated by a TikiWiki plug-in
19:52:09 <planetmaker> ok. I guess I'll start with that then
19:52:14 <orudge> sounds like a plan :)
19:52:34 <Alberth> Ammler: besides, I don't mind manually copying patches to a 'outgoing' repo, I often make small tweaks at that time.
19:53:34 <Ammler> so you commit with svn, still?
19:55:58 <Alberth> yes
19:56:51 <Alberth> and I like it better than hg, as you don't have that small moment between commit and push
19:59:07 <Ammler> well, the disadvantage is that you can't collect changesets :-)
19:59:38 <Alberth> indeed
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20:00:14 <Alberth> and a commit takes around a minute
20:00:35 <Alberth> mainly due to figuring out a log message :)
20:02:37 <Wolf01> 'night
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20:31:51 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22556 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Remove constness from the town pointer at industries.
20:32:30 *** goblin has joined #openttd
20:32:55 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22557 /trunk/src/ (10 files): -Codechange: Remove constness from AnimationBase callbacks.
20:34:05 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22558 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_spritegroup.h newgrf_station.cpp newgrf_station.h): -Codechange: Remove constness from BaseStation in ResolverObject.
20:34:39 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22559 /trunk/src/ (3 files): -Codechange: Remove constness from Station in ResolverObject.
20:35:39 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22560 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_house.cpp newgrf_house.h newgrf_spritegroup.h): -Codechange: Remove constness from House in ResolverObject.
20:36:34 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22561 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_object.cpp newgrf_object.h newgrf_spritegroup.h): -Codechange: Remove constness from Object in ResolverObject.
20:37:27 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22562 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Remove constness from TownGetVariable.
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20:37:59 <__ln__> what's wrong with constness?
20:38:08 <__ln__> tonight
20:38:27 <Terkhen> it gets in the way :)
20:38:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22563 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: Use a function for storing values inside the persistent storage.
20:40:28 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22564 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: Rename Get and Store persistent storage functions to GetValue and StoreValue.
20:41:19 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22565 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_debug_gui.cpp table/newgrf_debug_data.h): -Codechange: Use helper functions for getting the persistent storage in the NewGRF debug GUI.
20:42:25 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22566 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_commons.cpp newgrf_commons.h newgrf_house.cpp): -Codechange: Define and use OverrideManagerBase::GetGRFID function.
20:43:47 <andythenorth> hmm
20:43:58 * andythenorth seeks for better way to word this: "Light in TTD graphics comes from the bottom right of the screen."
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20:45:32 <Djohaal> moo
20:46:30 <Alberth> hi
20:47:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: that would be nice
20:47:47 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22567 /trunk/ (23 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: Store persistent storages inside a pool.
20:49:09 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22568 /trunk/src/ (saveload/town_sl.cpp town.h): -Change: Add a list of persistent storages to the Town class.
20:49:28 <andythenorth> not all light does come from bottom right
20:49:33 <andythenorth> which makes it more complicated :P
20:50:05 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22569 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Persistent storage for towns.
20:50:37 <andythenorth> Andersl has pointed out direction of plane shadow (1 o'clock)
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20:50:55 <andythenorth> it's primarily buildings which are lit from 4-5 o'clock
20:51:39 <Alberth> I just read that. It looks like we have several suns in the world :)
20:51:39 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22570 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Store the GrfID of the caller when opening a parent window in the NewGRF debug GUI.
20:52:54 <Djohaal> lol
20:53:01 <Djohaal> hmm, may I throw a thought out of the blue?
20:53:16 <Alberth> @get -3
20:53:16 <DorpsGek> Alberth: Don't ask to ask, just ask
20:53:18 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22571 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [NewGRF] Show town persistent storage in the NewGRF debug GUI.
20:53:40 <Terkhen> now... how should I document this? :P
20:53:40 <Alberth> although that one is primarily for questions :)
20:54:24 <Djohaal> well last IRC I popped in to mention it someone got a bit sour :\
20:54:27 <Alberth> Terkhen: I heard we have a brand new wiki :)
20:55:06 <Terkhen> :)
20:55:18 <Terkhen> what can I do to help to set up the new wiki?
20:55:18 <planetmaker> :-)
20:55:21 <planetmaker> Main menu is done
20:55:26 <Terkhen> awesome :)
20:55:41 <planetmaker>
20:55:52 <planetmaker> sub pages all need re-formatting still, I guess
20:55:58 <planetmaker> but they're all there
20:56:04 <planetmaker> s/all/most/ ;-)
20:56:17 <planetmaker> But please go and add it there indeed...
20:56:21 <planetmaker> might make sense
20:56:24 <Terkhen> ok, I'll start with the formatting :)
20:56:27 <Alberth> Djohaal: it depends on how you bring it. demanding things usually don't go down very well
20:56:40 <Djohaal> well I'm not demanding, I'm looking for someone :p
20:56:47 <Alberth> @seen someone
20:56:47 <DorpsGek> Alberth: someone was last seen in #openttd 34 weeks, 1 day, 3 hours, 16 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed
20:56:53 <Terkhen> Djohaal: ask :P
20:56:57 <Ammler> why subdir wiki?
20:57:03 <Djohaal> a coder who can do either C++ or C# and would be interested at working on an open source simcity 4 clone :p
20:57:15 <planetmaker> hahaha :-)
20:57:37 * Terkhen already has enough with openttd :P
20:57:43 <planetmaker> same here
20:57:58 <Terkhen> planetmaker: do we have a template on how formatting should be done or something?
20:58:09 <planetmaker> nothing defined as of now, I think
20:58:26 <planetmaker> I found the existing style not that bad actually
20:58:34 <planetmaker> except that it misses features
20:58:56 <Alberth> Djohaal: you may want to post a request in the off-topic section of the forum
20:58:59 <Terkhen> if you have set formatting already in some page it would be helpful so I can use it as an example :)
20:59:06 <orudge> Ammler: because it's bad practice not to use some sort of subdir, in theory it can break certain things in MediaWiki :)
20:59:12 <Djohaal> Alberth: well I guess it can't hurt
20:59:27 <frosch123> orudge: shall i still create a list for you?
20:59:32 <planetmaker> well, what page should I give a shot, Terkhen ?
20:59:41 <orudge> frosch123: if there are pages missing that definitely need to be ported over, yes
20:59:42 <Terkhen> oh right, the index :P
20:59:54 <Terkhen> ok, I'll begin :)
21:00:15 <Alberth> Djohaal: I wouldn't really know how to find one. The best way may be to simply start yourself, and wait until one passes by.
21:00:59 <Djohaal> Alberth: well that's an issue, at the moment we have no coders at the simcity community, and I'm not exactly on the position to learn coding (4th year of medschool :\ )
21:01:12 <frosch123> orudge:
21:01:25 <orudge> frosch123: OK, I'll look those out shortly
21:01:31 <Ammler> orudge: well, but it looks stupid
21:01:44 <frosch123> orudge: is there also some way to port the images?
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21:01:59 <orudge> frosch123: yes, but they'll have to be done individually. You can upload them yourself as required.
21:02:11 <orudge> If you require any mediawiki extensions for more flexibility with images, let me know
21:02:15 <Ammler> and afaik, you don't need hacks, it is supported per default
21:02:33 <orudge> Ammler: it looks just the same as Wikipedia and every wiki I've seen except the OpenTTD wiki ;)
21:02:47 <orudge> the /wiki/ bit is only for the nice URLs, physically everything is in /, by the way
21:02:53 <frosch123> planetmaker: did you left out some of the additional references intentional?
21:03:01 <planetmaker> nope
21:03:14 <planetmaker> which do you mean?
21:03:31 <DAnius95> hey what are you talking about
21:03:32 <frosch123> textids for example
21:04:09 <orudge> also, planetmaker, you're now a wiki admin
21:04:10 <planetmaker> that was something I needed to think about. I guess it goes to the TTD defaults section
21:04:11 <orudge> on the newgrf wiki
21:04:14 <frosch123> though only a subset of them is important
21:04:15 <planetmaker> orudge: thanks
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21:08:07 <Alberth> andythenorth: dairy in the snow is looking great!
21:08:15 <andythenorth> thanks :)
21:08:21 <andythenorth> some snow takes a long time
21:08:25 <andythenorth> others are quick
21:08:33 <andythenorth> the dairy was not quick :P
21:08:47 <Ammler> orudge: then it is even more silly, imo
21:10:11 <orudge> Ammler: perhaps, but there are, for instance, PHP scripts that may need to be accessed directly (not, admittedly, by most users) that would be inaccessible were the rewrite to take place on / instead of /wiki/, which is why MediaWiki recommends it be set up this way
21:11:11 <Ammler> that is if you mix different apps on same app, isn't?
21:11:23 <Ammler> same vhost*
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21:15:40 <Terkhen> planetmaker: what style for tables? default ones have no borders :/
21:16:03 <planetmaker> Just found out on that, too :S
21:16:09 <planetmaker> I'd prefer simple lines
21:16:22 <planetmaker> Without outside border
21:16:37 <andythenorth> 1px single line
21:16:41 <andythenorth> throughout
21:16:54 <andythenorth> if colour is an option, try #ddd
21:17:16 <planetmaker> colour is an option
21:17:22 <andythenorth> can you set th?
21:17:36 <planetmaker> in principle. But I need to familiarize with wiki code
21:17:37 <Terkhen> <--- I like the "Simple one-pixel table border" in this tuto
21:18:06 <Terkhen> having to write that code everywhere will be extremely tedious though
21:18:18 <Terkhen> probably there is an option to make a given table style "global"
21:18:39 <frosch123> there are table templates or something like that
21:18:43 <orudge> frosch123: those pages are now importede
21:18:52 <frosch123> thanks
21:19:10 <bodis> hmm why flying from one side of 2048 map to the other would earn only 9k
21:19:15 <Terkhen> hmm... ok, I'll use default ones for now and look into templates later
21:19:18 <frosch123> btw. i would like to MediaWiki:Sidebar, but I am not allowed to :)
21:19:25 <frosch123> *edit
21:19:31 <Terkhen> I'm doing VarAction2Advanced btw, just in case we are doing the same thing :P
21:19:34 <andythenorth> there's no way to apply a class to the table?
21:20:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: afaik you can reference a template at the start of the table
21:20:29 * andythenorth is too old to learn media wiki :P
21:20:37 <andythenorth> maybe I will be younger tomorrow
21:20:43 <Alberth> bodis: you need a faster plane :p
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21:21:01 <Elvang> Greetings
21:21:03 <bodis> yeah not many available in 1956
21:21:04 <bodis> :)
21:21:06 <Alberth> hi
21:21:06 <bodis> hi
21:21:17 <planetmaker> Terkhen: just set cellspacing=0, border="1" in the table header
21:21:18 <bodis> but 591 is a decent speed
21:21:24 <Elvang> Anything special I have to do in order to join stations in multiplayer?
21:21:26 <bodis> is there a cap on how much you can earn?
21:21:35 <planetmaker> Terkhen: I started with Action0General
21:21:44 <planetmaker> So... we're not doing the same. Puh! :-)
21:22:10 <Alberth> bodis: yeah, something with 18 or more zeroes
21:22:18 <Terkhen> :)
21:22:18 <bodis> lol
21:22:28 <bodis> this doesnt make sense
21:22:30 <Terkhen> it looks nice with cellspacing=0, border="1", but we should use something global
21:22:32 <bodis> nm
21:22:37 <Terkhen> as soon as we finish we look into it :P
21:22:55 <andythenorth> could probably adjust Common.css
21:23:02 <Alberth> Elvang: not that I am aware of, you cannot join with another company though
21:23:42 <Elvang> I'm holding control, but the station selection window never pops up. Other players appear to be able to join stations though...
21:23:43 <Alberth> bodis: try half that distance first
21:23:58 <bodis> why would that matter?
21:24:03 * andythenorth -> bed
21:24:05 <Alberth> even when you place it at 1 tile distance?
21:24:07 <bodis> nn
21:24:14 <Alberth> good night andythenorth
21:24:18 <andythenorth> night
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21:24:24 <Elvang> Yea
21:24:56 <Alberth> bodis: probably not, but it may give insight in what is happening
21:25:05 <bodis> ok
21:25:08 <bodis> :)
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21:25:47 <planetmaker> I guess I'll indeed define it in common.css
21:25:52 <Terkhen> I chose the biggest, ugliest table :P
21:26:04 <planetmaker> yep :-p
21:26:14 <planetmaker> that's why I did NOT start there ;-)
21:26:25 <Alberth> Elvang: the only thing I can think of is that you have the join stations settings switched off. I don't know whether it is a client or a server settings
21:26:57 <frosch123> planetmaker: what's "refit paths"?
21:27:02 <Elvang> "Allow building adjacent stations" right?
21:27:05 <planetmaker> your refit image
21:27:19 <Elvang> Its listed green, while the "not directly adjacent" option is red.
21:27:20 <planetmaker> please choose a better name :-)
21:27:23 <frosch123> ok, then i'll change that to the currently imported page, ok?
21:27:30 <planetmaker> yep, please.
21:27:47 <Terkhen> Elvang: no, allow to join directly adyacent
21:27:50 <Terkhen> adjacent*
21:27:56 <Elvang> Yea, its enabled
21:28:33 <Terkhen> but you said that "join not directly adjacent" was red
21:28:39 <Alberth> 'adjacent stations' sounds like they are placed right next to each other
21:28:45 <Elvang> Right
21:29:19 <Alberth> iirc, that is for building your stations directly next to the competitor
21:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> [12.06.2011 21:00] <orudge> and (or, whatever you want to call it :P) can be the new specs wiki <-- may i suggest
21:30:03 <planetmaker> Terkhen: what name should the table style have?
21:30:07 <Elvang> I don't see any other options in Advanced Settings that are related to station joining
21:30:34 <Terkhen> Elvang: that setting should be green
21:30:41 <Terkhen> planetmaker: I don't know :)
21:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> might neatly integrate with "nmlspecs" next to it as well
21:30:49 <Elvang> The directly adjacent one is, the non adjacent one is red
21:31:47 <Terkhen> non adjacent -> green
21:33:02 <Elvang> Can't change it, I'm assuming clients are stuck with whatever settings the server has set
21:33:30 <Alberth> that is very well possible
21:33:41 <Elvang> Other players on the server are able to join their stations though...
21:33:52 <Terkhen> Elvang: are you sure? or are they using station walk?
21:34:02 <Elvang> Station walk?
21:34:47 <Terkhen> build and demolish station tiles until you get a station as separated as you want
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21:35:41 <Elvang> I don't think so, one player has several 2x14 rail stations set up in this game
21:36:03 <Elvang> Last map a player had bus stations joined to all his rail stations as well (same server)
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21:36:35 <Terkhen> strange
21:36:59 <Elvang> Eh
21:37:13 <Elvang> Just found some bus stations joined to an airport, about 8 tiles apart
21:37:30 <Terkhen> <--- something like this?
21:38:51 <Elvang> That link directed at me?
21:38:56 <frosch123> <- that page is completely broken
21:38:58 <Terkhen> Elvang: no
21:38:59 <frosch123> half is missing
21:39:03 <Elvang> Ah, k
21:39:21 <Terkhen> Elvang: the only thing I can think that might have happened is that the setting was enabled before and later it was desabled
21:39:24 <planetmaker> Terkhen: yes. But use the default wikitable class without other frills
21:39:30 <planetmaker> I'll try to change the default
21:39:33 <Terkhen> ok :)
21:39:39 <planetmaker> to something like that
21:40:04 <orudge> frosch123: <-- looks the same as the old page to me
21:40:14 <planetmaker> thus just class="wikitable" in the table header
21:40:16 <orudge> frosch123: obviously, formatting is messed up, but content seems to be the same
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21:41:02 <Elvang> Possible, wouldn't "Allow building adjacent stations" allow me to join touching stations though?
21:41:25 <frosch123> orudge: no, half of 10,11,12, complete 13 and 14 are missing
21:41:32 <Terkhen> Elvang: no, that settings allows you to build stations adjacent to other player's companies
21:41:50 <Elvang> I just tried that, got a red message box saying I'm building to close
21:42:02 <Terkhen> I won't be doing more formatting today, it is too late :)
21:42:25 <orudge> frosch123: strange. Well, you can copy them out of the original wiki; I guess the markup converter somehow ended up deleting them. :/
21:42:58 <frosch123> planetmaker: Terkhen: then please be aware that the pages might miss content :)
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21:43:15 <orudge> I won't be deleting the original wiki any time soon, although it is now read-only
21:43:16 <planetmaker> hm, they do?
21:43:17 <Terkhen> ok, I have been checking each line against the original wiki
21:43:41 <frosch123> orudge: planetmaker: i would like to edit the sidebar, but only mods are allowed to :)
21:43:49 <planetmaker> what is missing?
21:44:08 <orudge> frosch123: I'll give you admin for now too, ideally will have to sort out admin/mods properly at some point in the future
21:44:11 <frosch123> planetmaker: action0 cargos misses sections on 10,11,12 (half), 13 and 14
21:44:30 <orudge> all of the revision history is there, so I really don't know why it's gone missing
21:44:34 <frosch123> planetmaker: i just wanted to link the cargo classes from the main page :s
21:44:40 <orudge> I guess when updating a page, just compare it against the original one and ensure it's all fine
21:45:06 <frosch123> planetmaker: btw. i added a section "NewGRF commons" to the main page, for stuff which is not exaclty spec, but agreed on
21:45:15 <planetmaker> ok
21:45:31 <Terkhen> planetmaker: once that the class for tables is set, we should paste a few example links at the transport tycoon wiki thread so anyone interested on formatting can get to it :)
21:45:32 <planetmaker> I guess I can't grant you elevated edit rights, frosch123
21:45:35 <orudge> frosch123: you're an admin now
21:45:44 <Terkhen> brb
21:46:00 <planetmaker> Terkhen: it then should suffice to just use class=wikitable and that's it
21:46:40 <planetmaker> shouldn't there be at least on other burocrat, too, orudge ?
21:47:11 <Terkhen> from the "other side" maybe :P
21:47:14 <orudge> planetmaker: eventually, yes. Ideally need to figure this out properly though rather than just appointing random people at the moment ;)
21:47:32 <planetmaker> yep :-)
21:47:53 <Elvang> Thought it might just be that server, but I looked for another that had joined stations going on; couldn't do it on that one either <_<
21:48:13 <Yexo> Elvang: do you know you need to press ctrl to build adjacent stations?
21:48:18 <Elvang> Yes
21:48:26 <Elvang> I do it regularly in sp
21:48:38 <Elvang> Just for the life of my can't get it to work in mp :(
21:48:42 <Elvang> me*
21:48:47 <Yexo> if it works for you in sp and not in mp the most likely reason is that the server has turned the setting of
21:49:04 <Yexo> got an example of a server where it doesn't work?
21:49:08 <Elvang> Others are doing it though in the same server I am in
21:49:13 <Elvang> Yea
21:49:16 <Yexo> hmm, that is strange
21:51:26 <Elvang> Heres the settings the server is using, along with an attempt to build a station next to a competitors:
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21:52:34 <Elvang> He built those (bus station joined to airport, couple rail stations) after I joined while I was trying to join some, so I don't think someone was flipping the settings on/off
21:52:49 <Yexo> which server is that?
21:53:03 <Yexo> I can't reproduce it, so I'd like to try and join that server to see if it works there for me
21:53:13 <Elvang> There a way to copy server info?
21:53:23 <Yexo> name of the server is enough
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21:53:51 * Terkhen does another page :P
21:54:04 <Elvang> # #2 [Metropolis Goal, 1975-2040]#
21:54:04 <frosch123> planetmaker: updated the sidebar, comments?
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21:54:28 <planetmaker> myself? Not yet
21:54:52 <frosch123> no, i just did :) do you want to comment on the sections i choosed :)
21:55:45 <planetmaker> main page, community portal, current events, recent changes, random page?
21:55:53 <frosch123> not sure whether there should be as prominent links to nml or the devzone
21:55:55 <planetmaker> I didn't quite look at it initially :-P
21:56:11 <planetmaker> Hm... might make sense actually
21:56:15 <frosch123> planetmaker: reload some page, so you get a new one :)
21:56:15 <Terkhen> the changes appear in any page except the first one for me
21:58:16 <planetmaker> Reload first didn't work. But yes. Now that you asked: I think DevZone and NML docs make sense to me
21:58:33 <planetmaker> bananas maybe?
21:59:03 <frosch123> quite some stuff is already explained under "Tools"
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22:00:40 <planetmaker> hm. yes
22:01:37 <planetmaker> Dunno... Maybe add a link to the DevZone. They get many free and extensive examples there :-)
22:02:01 <planetmaker> but then... that's also under 'tools'...
22:04:24 <frosch123> #openttdcoop is too long, i just put Development Zone :)
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22:17:39 <frosch123> night
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22:25:33 <Hirundo> Terkhen: If I get r22569 correctly, you always need to explicitly set register 100 before reading/writing to town storage, right? (assuming no grf with id 0)
22:26:11 <Terkhen> Hirundo: yes, if the register is not set you can't access town storage at all
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22:27:37 <Terkhen> a newgrf only has write access to the storage of its own grfid, but can read any storage
22:27:59 <Terkhen> and items that are still not built cannot access town storage at all
22:28:05 <Terkhen> that's the idea :)
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22:40:46 <Terkhen> planetmaker: is the table template supposed to work now?
22:42:58 <planetmaker> not yet, I'm afraid
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22:50:07 <Ammler> maybe we can also move some generic guide things from the devzone to the new wiki
22:50:46 <Terkhen> good luck with the template, I'm going to bed :)
22:50:48 <Terkhen> good night
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23:22:29 <Elvang> How big a penalty is there for pathing through the back of a Path Signal?
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23:42:49 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22572 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix: MSVC performance warning (assigning int to bool).
23:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Elvang: go to the ingame console and type "list_settings pf.yapf.rail"
23:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 tile = 100
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23:55:11 <Elvang> Ah, thanks Eddi|zuHause
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23:55:52 <michi_cc> orudge: The new wiki says my username ("Michi_cc") is invalid, likely because MediaWiki silently converts _ to spaces. I know TB had the same troubles when unifying the OpenTTD accounts, but I don't know what exactly he did to fix it.
23:57:06 <Elvang> Hmm. My trains refuse to use any depot with a path signal infront of it, even though they can path through it albeit with a penalty...
23:58:12 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a limit on the maximum penalty for automatically choosing a depot
23:59:23 <Elvang> It listed 1500(15 tiles), and theres a depot every ~20 or so but they ignore all of them until I remove the path signal
23:59:47 <Elvang> They'll path to them only if I tell them to head for depot :(