IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-05
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02:56:43 <pikka> Bing tiddle tiddle bong
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06:12:53 <a1270> just roll back to the 'stable' build of oldness.
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07:04:18 <planetmaker> hoy Terkhen & pikka
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07:33:47 <andythenorth> planetmaker: could we have make build multiple grfs from same repo and distribute them in one tar?
07:35:18 <planetmaker> also "hello andythenorth " :-)
07:35:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'd not quite see the advantage in most cases to distribute grfs bundled
07:36:02 <planetmaker> what is your use-case you envision?
07:36:46 <planetmaker> I think you have in mind a re-write of bananas, I assume?
07:38:20 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I also think that currently OpenTTD expects to find a single piece of "content" in each tar, so you would need to change OpenTTD code too
07:39:02 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the use case is HEQS
07:39:06 <planetmaker> Terkhen: afaik it handles tars just as "directories", sort of
07:39:13 <andythenorth> few of you like my approach there
07:39:15 <planetmaker> like base sets are in one tar, too
07:39:32 <Terkhen> what's the problem with a parameter based approach? :P
07:40:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth: indeed, for now I think the most viable approach is a few parameters which enable / disable vehicle classes
07:40:15 <planetmaker> Probably three: trams / trucks / rail
07:40:35 <andythenorth> I have that done already ;)
07:40:45 <planetmaker> but... I think we talked about that before and recommended exactly that solution with certain default parameters
07:40:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, that's ok
07:40:50 <Terkhen> that's how it's done already, IIRC the only thing missing is a switch for disabling the "core" trucks, just in case someone wants just bulldozers
07:41:03 <andythenorth> even that's done I think
07:41:11 <andythenorth> the chain of reasoning was this:
07:41:22 <andythenorth> there is a forum suggestion about improving newgrf compatibility
07:41:30 <andythenorth> which is mostly down to authors doing the right thing
07:41:40 <andythenorth> but I don't think anywhere there is written down 'the right thing'
07:41:48 <andythenorth> just outdated stuff from TTDP wiki
07:42:05 <planetmaker> maybe we should add that. But ... the admin of the wiki will strongly disagre
07:42:18 <andythenorth> maybe time to do the move from TTDP wiki....
07:42:26 <planetmaker> yes, it is, if you ask me
07:42:27 <andythenorth> anyway, if I write a thing saying "don't mix types in a grf" I am a hypocrite
07:43:07 <planetmaker> there's no black and white only.
07:43:22 <planetmaker> if it was totally bad, it would need forbidding by the specs. Which isn't
07:43:56 <planetmaker> but it's more of a convenient for the user thing. Monolithic set authors disagree there
07:44:05 <planetmaker> which there are two :-P
07:45:14 <andythenorth> I am going out soon, but it might be a good time to write a 'guidelines'
07:45:38 <Terkhen> HEQS mixes trams and road vehicles, but that separation is unfair for it IMO; if there were roadtypes HEQS separation of vehicles would be different :)
07:46:03 <Terkhen> what kind of guidelines?
07:46:59 <andythenorth> "don't mix types"
07:47:06 <andythenorth> "vehicle sets shouldn't screw with cargos"
07:47:14 <andythenorth> "town sets shouldn't screw with cargos"
07:47:21 <andythenorth> "industry sets shouldn't screw with towns"
07:47:30 <andythenorth> "landscape grfs shouldn't screw with anything else"
07:47:40 <andythenorth> "cost parameters are a good idea"
07:47:50 <andythenorth> "use action 14 as it's supposed to be used"
07:48:14 <andythenorth> "if you have a big set, consider a parameter for 'core/extended'"
07:48:29 <andythenorth> "use compatibility checks when there are known problems"
07:48:34 <andythenorth> "never disable another grf"
07:48:48 <Terkhen> anyone else is picturing andythenorth descending from a mountain with two stone tables? :P
07:49:01 <andythenorth> I just list what I've been told to do :P
07:49:16 <Terkhen> those rules are good IMO
07:49:19 <andythenorth> plus we can add nfo + nml code examples for common cases
07:49:43 <andythenorth> "light in game comes from bottom right"
07:49:51 <Terkhen> all of the problems I had with other NewGRFS we caused by not following those rules
07:50:36 <planetmaker> [09:48] Terkhen anyone else is picturing andythenorth descending from a mountain with two stone tables? :P <-looooool!
07:50:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth: indeed it would be good to write down what you just outlined
07:50:57 <planetmaker> Indeed that's missing
07:51:11 <andythenorth> get frosch to write the final versions - no-one ever argues with him for some reason :P
07:51:56 <planetmaker> those are "good practise" rules which cannot be enforced a hard way, but they indeed should be around
07:52:07 <planetmaker> it's similar to coding style rules. It works without. But much better with
07:53:02 * planetmaker doesn't see where pikka's newgrfs would have problems with these rules. Maybe, just maybe TAI. But... there the name already suggests it does ;-)
07:53:10 <andythenorth> they're not new ideas :) I just write what I'm told :)
07:53:26 <andythenorth> it's more useful though if they're backed by reusable code for the common cases
07:53:35 <planetmaker> not new. But "new" can also mean "summarized and made accessible"
07:54:23 <planetmaker> agreed, that code snippets might help. They can be added, though I'm not sure to what extend they make sense. But yes...
07:55:06 <pikka> its multiple grfs, the town buildings and industries are separate
07:55:24 <pikka> nars on the other hand... :p
07:55:45 <andythenorth> nars 2 screws with my industry set :P
07:55:55 <andythenorth> I have to put my cargos where you decided they should go :P
07:56:02 <andythenorth> or I miss something in the spec :D
07:56:35 <andythenorth> or I should read the manual on NARS parameters, but I Don't Read Manuals
07:56:41 <planetmaker> historical ballast. The past can't be un-done
07:57:00 <andythenorth> and tis a fine set
07:57:18 <planetmaker> but does nars2 still have a regearing cargo?
07:57:38 <planetmaker> anyway... done is done :-)
07:57:43 <andythenorth> in my game, each regearable locomotive is very environmentally conscious
07:57:52 <andythenorth> it carries 1t of recyclables :P
07:58:14 <planetmaker> probably the litter of the (very untidy) engine driver
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07:58:49 <andythenorth> he knows when he's needed
07:59:15 * andythenorth is going to Wooton now and will wave at Chipping Sodbury on the way
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09:05:02 <pikka> good evening frosch et al
09:05:37 <frosch123> you're a rare guest in my time zone :)
09:07:47 <pikka> 2 more hours to go tonight
09:09:07 <pikka> then I only get exactly 10 hours before I start work tomorrow. the legal minimum!
09:10:06 <planetmaker> the "legal minimum"?
09:11:11 <planetmaker> how can there be a "legal minimum" for working hours?
09:11:45 <pikka> there's a legal minimum for the break between
09:11:54 <Rubidium> planetmaker: Germany has a legal limit for the amount of time between shifts as well
09:12:22 <planetmaker> ah, yes, that there is. I misunderstood the context
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09:14:00 <pikka> anyway... frosch is going to code all our wishlists, right? :D
09:14:51 <Alberth> eventually, very likely :)
09:15:16 <Terkhen> should I stop coding then? :)
09:15:50 <planetmaker> you're responsible for those wishes we don't even yet know ourselves :-P
09:15:58 <Terkhen> I was hoping that he would code my todo list too :/
09:16:38 <planetmaker> there's so much which could be done...
09:16:49 <planetmaker> and only so little time :-(
09:17:03 <Terkhen> right now I'm trying to do town persistent storage, I wonder what could it be used for
09:17:53 <planetmaker> minimum deliveries for town growth
09:18:05 <planetmaker> depending on town size
09:18:09 <pikka> although in my case, when I have the time I strangely lack the inclination
09:18:52 <pikka> stockpiling for towns :p
09:19:06 <frosch123> pikka: nope, i don't code. i'm just a douche bag commenting on everything
09:19:33 <planetmaker> for certain definitions of "douche bag" and "commenting"?
09:20:22 * pikka must to aspley now, goodbye
09:20:42 <DorpsGek> douche bag: bag of ideas with realisation instructions
09:20:46 <frosch123> [11:17] <Terkhen> right now I'm trying to do town persistent storage, I wonder what could it be used for <- towns are accessible from most other features: stations, industries, objects
09:20:58 <frosch123> so it add local communication between these things
09:21:52 <Terkhen> frosch123: yes, that's my issue... I can see the most "obvious" features it could allow, but that communication will probably allow to do a lot of strange stuff I can't predict :)
09:22:16 <planetmaker> Terkhen: we'll find out with opengfx+ ;-)
09:22:25 <frosch123> yeah, it allows multiple newgrfs to team up against the player :p
09:22:46 <planetmaker> new competition style "newgrf vs player"?
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09:29:31 <Alberth> I don't like such additions, you'll get dual systems where both the program and the newgrf try to do global control
09:29:45 <Alberth> too complicated to make any sense
09:30:45 <Terkhen> but openttd right now does not do much control regarding town growth
09:31:02 <frosch123> you can say that about almost every newgrf thingie, can't you?
09:32:09 <Alberth> frosch123: to some extent, yes, but now if a newgrf messes up, it is still understandable.
09:32:41 <Alberth> if they share information, it becomes impossible to decide what it happening
09:32:55 <Alberth> let alone how to handle such cases
09:33:38 <planetmaker> the 94, 95 and 96 respectively
09:33:52 <Rubidium> it's the same number |= 80h
09:33:57 <frosch123> planetmaker: read the lines above the table :p
09:33:59 <Terkhen> Alberth: to access the town persistent storage you need to input a GrfID... most NewGRFs will access only "their" town persistent storage
09:34:06 <Alberth> also for eg debugging, you first need to reproduce the shared state before you can look at the problem
09:34:19 <Terkhen> if someone wants to do a mess and access other storages... he's asking for those complications :)
09:34:36 <Alberth> but the bug reports end up at our door step
09:34:50 <frosch123> Alberth: persistent storage is stored in the save
09:35:06 <frosch123> of course it needs to be exposed in the newgrf debug windos
09:35:13 <Rubidium> I'd say that NewGRFs may only write their own storage, but read the storage of others
09:35:27 <Rubidium> like they may read the parameters and version of others
09:35:38 <Alberth> and not read their own storage :p
09:36:28 <Terkhen> hmm... that makes sense, yes
09:37:05 <frosch123> but it would also disallow to define common interfaces, which might be served by different grfs
09:37:24 <frosch123> so, every grfs needs to know about everyone else, you cannot plug in something
09:37:44 <Alberth> you can write a newgrf that distributes data
09:38:49 <Alberth> frosch123: but even for reading, you need to know what data means
09:39:49 <frosch123> somewhen the idea was that you can write to storage with an arbitrary grfid, i.e. even with an id which does not belong to any loaded grf
09:40:11 <frosch123> so you could say there is generic town information stored with the grfid "TOWN"
09:40:31 <Rubidium> I'd say: use GRFID FFxxyyzz for that
09:40:35 <frosch123> and then you could define register 0 to contain growth information in a specific format
09:41:09 <frosch123> otoh you can say that most approaches to make stuff freely defineable by grfs has failed so far :p
09:41:16 <frosch123> like cargo classes, ...
09:41:55 <Terkhen> yes, I'd prefer to make those things available via variables
09:42:04 <frosch123> but yes, restricting write access to the own grf and to grfids of a specific shape like FFxxyyzz would make sense :)
09:43:20 <Alberth> if I write a newgrf for controlling industries at the world, it needs to interface to the program, making a complicated mess. Imho it is better to cleanly either let the program control, or the newgrf control, not both
09:43:51 <Terkhen> so... 0 -> current newgrf, with write access, FFxxyyzz -> "fake" newgrfs, with write access, anything else (except the current newgrf) -> read access
09:44:53 <frosch123> maybe it is also a good idea, to postpone the common access, and first see what mess newgrfs come up with :p
09:45:00 <Rubidium> might even go so far to say FFFFFFFF is the current newgrf (is that used more often?)
09:45:45 <Terkhen> 0xFFFFFFFF is used as current newgrf for industry vars 0x67 and 0x68, yes
09:46:03 <Alberth> seems like a good value to re-use :)
09:46:20 <Terkhen> frosch123: I agree, common access can be implemented later if needed :)
09:46:40 <frosch123> would also ensure that newgrfs actually assign a value, and do not rely on zero-initialisation
09:46:45 <Terkhen> s/needed/we see that it won't cause a huge mess/
09:47:16 <Alberth> frosch123: use a random generator for init ;)
09:49:24 <frosch123> [11:43] <Alberth> if I write a newgrf for controlling industries at the world, it needs to interface to the program, making a complicated mess. Imho it is better to cleanly either let the program control, or the newgrf control, not both <- the program should provide sane defaults, but the program cannot generically handle every requirement, they are too different for that
09:54:00 <Terkhen> templated classes are fun too
09:55:43 <peter1138> hmm, is there a yacd_2.3 build around?
09:59:27 <Rubidium> peter1138: isn't there one on bundles.openttdcoop.org?
10:00:55 <Terkhen> yes, there is one in bundles
10:07:59 <peter1138> then i found that the openttdcoop server is on toyland
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10:36:59 <mib_myd0kk> hi on MagLev food wagon is missing is this normal or some bug ? ver 1.1.1
10:37:15 <Yexo> which climate? do you use any newgrfs?
10:38:21 <mib_myd0kk> on Monorail i can build this wagon only on
10:38:43 <Yexo> without any newgrfs there is a maglev food van in the arctic climate
10:39:37 <Yexo> can you upload your savegame somewhere?
10:40:17 <mib_myd0kk> i can't dont have any ftp
10:41:00 <Yexo> you can always make a topic at the forum
10:41:13 <Yexo> or use some web fileshare site
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10:41:25 <Ammler> mib_myd0kk: you mean ogfx+<something>?
10:42:51 <mib_myd0kk> ok i try to attach to some new topic
10:44:08 <Ammler> or create a valid thread :-)
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10:53:34 <Chris_Booth> mib_myd0kk: I have problem with build food wagon on maglev railroad. Pls can someone check my save and give me aby clue how to repair this ?
10:53:45 <Chris_Booth> maybe spell check that
10:54:00 <planetmaker> mib_myd0kk: it's most probable a result of the newgrf you use
10:54:06 <Chris_Booth> and give a screen shot of the error
10:54:40 <Chris_Booth> also the openttd version you are using would be helpful
10:54:44 <Chris_Booth> and a list of grfs
10:54:47 <planetmaker> I don't know the openttdplus one, but...
10:55:02 <planetmaker> Chris_Booth: he did. And the savegame has that
10:55:16 <planetmaker> just a few lines back ;-)
10:55:18 <Yexo> mib_myd0kk: the description of the openttdplus grf says "it REQUIRES 'old wagons, new cargos' to work"
10:56:43 <mib_myd0kk> ok i try to disable newgrf
10:57:23 <Rubidium> disabling NewGRFs mid-game will most likely cause many other issues
10:57:47 <Rubidium> likewise for adding other NewGRFs
10:57:47 <mib_myd0kk> i can't give you screen shot because it's not error
10:59:37 <Chris_Booth> that .sav will fix your issue
11:02:17 <mib_myd0kk> chris if that sav will be working i buy you beer if you will be in Poland someday :D
11:02:35 <Chris_Booth> lol it works trust me
11:02:52 <Chris_Booth> I need to book a holiday to poland now
11:04:23 <planetmaker> good that it's just holiday season ;-)
11:04:34 <mib_myd0kk> yeah, it's not works for me ;/
11:05:22 * planetmaker wonders though whether - if it were just for the beer - it would qualify as one of the top-10 of "most expensive beer in the world"
11:05:51 <Chris_Booth> lol very True planetmaker
11:06:10 <Chris_Booth> mib_myd0kk you need the grf I added
11:06:23 <Chris_Booth> then to type reset_engines into the game consol
11:06:53 <Yexo> mib_myd0kk: in any case that "openttd plus" grf is very much broken
11:07:06 <Yexo> don't use it in any new games you start
11:07:29 <mib_myd0kk> i keept it on my mind / never use openttd plus :)
11:07:53 <Yexo> actually you can't anymore in 1.1, which might be the reason of your problems now
11:11:01 <mib_myd0kk> thanks for help Chris and Yexo
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12:19:07 <Bilge> When placing a station to receive goods, does it matter if just one tile overlaps or the whole catchment overlaps the industry? I mean, does having more tiles overlap increase goods received at the station or not?
12:20:04 <planetmaker> it matters for towns, of course. As every house produces mail and passengers separately
12:20:42 <Bilge> But on the contrary, for goods, the most efficient configuration is the least tiles?
12:20:42 <planetmaker> it might make a difference for *accepting* some cargo for some industries. Not all tiles accept all cargo for all industries
12:20:55 <planetmaker> but you can see that in the station build preview of what is accepted
12:21:50 <planetmaker> there's nothing to optimze for industries shipping stuff to a station. Either they do. or they don't.
12:25:09 <Bilge> Do you know how much real time passes for a year of in-game time?
12:25:20 <Bilge> I'm wondering how long I have to do these subsidies :)
12:26:08 * Alberth never bothers with subsidies
12:26:57 <planetmaker> 1 game year ~13 minutes
12:29:40 <Bilge> For a list of road vehicles, there is a blue diagonal line beneath their number for most of them but now there's like a gold coin for a couple of them... what does that mean?
12:31:03 <TWerkhoven> gold coin means its making profit
12:31:04 <planetmaker> indicator of how well they make money
12:31:17 <TWerkhoven> blue diagonal means its a baby (<1 year old)
12:32:44 <planetmaker> @calc 0.03 * 74 * 365
12:35:04 <planetmaker> @calc 0.027 * 74 * 365
12:35:10 <planetmaker> @calc 0.027 * 74 * 365 / 60
12:35:10 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 12.1545
12:35:19 <planetmaker> much shorter in TTDPatch ;-)
12:36:00 <Alberth> shorter games are less fun :p
12:36:33 <Alberth> the daylength patches prove that ;)
12:37:02 <Bilge> Why might you increase or decrease the service interval?
12:37:39 <Alberth> more service == increased reliability == less breakdown
12:37:44 <Ammler> keep breakdowns lower?
12:38:20 <Alberth> but more service == less transport == less money :)
12:39:37 <Bilge> Breakdowns seem to be really short anyway
12:39:49 <Bilge> Whereas services are somewhat disruptive
12:40:03 <Bilge> Especially when a vehicle gets to its destination and then changes its mind, pathing all the way back to a depot somewhere
12:40:22 <Alberth> you can also add depot servicing in the orders
12:40:39 <Alberth> then it will not go looking for a depot on its own
12:40:51 <Alberth> otherwise, add more depots, they are not so costly :)
12:41:04 <planetmaker> orudge: we need a spambuster...
12:41:37 <Alberth> Bilge: breakdowns may be short but on a busy line/junction, they can cause much havoc in the flow
12:41:44 <orudge> planetmaker: pfft, why are my moderators never moderating. Seems I'm removing all the spam these days.
12:42:02 <planetmaker> orudge: well... I do. But I can't ban the person
12:42:16 <Ammler> orudge: if you don't trust someone, you don't get more help, obviously :-)
12:42:19 <planetmaker> And I just called you as it just started
12:42:20 <orudge> well, I'm not sure which spam you're referring to specifically anyway, I see spam in Off-Topic
12:42:43 <planetmaker> ^ just started posting
12:42:54 <planetmaker> one posting per minute or so... ;-)
12:43:22 <planetmaker> I thought better ask now than remove about one posting per thread... which is tedious at least
12:43:42 <planetmaker> from those "flood bots"
12:43:58 <planetmaker> the single posting spammers are not that bad
12:44:29 <orudge> well, it doesn't really matter how much spam is posted, I can remove it all in one swoop
12:44:34 <orudge> but obviously, the less the better in general
12:45:27 <Ammler> you should allow mods to do that too
12:45:28 <planetmaker> well, I usually visit forums by "view new postings". And then such mass-postings are VERY visible
12:45:57 <planetmaker> I nearly never browse the forums by other methods ;-)
12:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "view new posts" only works for small forums
12:46:23 <planetmaker> works fine here, too
12:46:34 <Eddi|zuHause> especially since it's not possible to filter certain subforums
12:46:55 <orudge> without making them admins
12:47:02 <Ammler> planetmaker: how do you filter out the non-openttd forums?
12:47:07 <orudge> it's a phpBB admin feature, not a moderator feature :(
12:47:46 <Ammler> orudge: then make more admins :-)
12:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i only visit the openttd and graphics forum, and check all new posts in the subforums from there
12:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> with smaller forums like the german one, i use "view new posts"
12:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> one problem is always the AI subforum
12:50:17 <planetmaker> that's more clicks. Now I go to 'new postings' and then open the interesting ones in a separate tab and can read
12:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be moved out of general forum, next to the other subforums
12:50:27 <planetmaker> whereever the interesting ones are
12:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that means i must judge "interesting" posts from the title
12:51:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and i can't declare individual threads as "i don't care"
12:51:27 <planetmaker> I'd support that move of the NoAI sub-forum
12:51:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's _by far_ not optimal
12:51:49 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: how do you mean? in the sub-forum view you only see the topic titles, too
12:52:17 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: the no-ai subforum was just for Truebrain, so he didn't need to browse the whole openttd forum
12:52:28 <Ammler> it is a bit silly to keep that
12:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but the number of potential "not-interesting" ones is way lower
12:52:41 <TrueBrain> Ammler: you make interesting assumptions :D
12:53:27 <Ammler> ah, it is nice to speak about you and assume you aren't around anyway :-P
12:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: having an AI subforum is fine, it just shouldn't be a sub-subforum of the general forum
12:53:38 <TrueBrain> highlighting does crazy stuff :)
12:53:45 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that I always said :D
12:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i know. i always said that, as well. only orudge is too lazy :p
12:54:20 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: well, part is user help, part is development
12:54:28 <TrueBrain> nah; he set it up as sub-sub to see if there was any interest as a seperate forum; there clearly is ;)
12:54:28 <Ammler> this special subforum just confuses
12:54:50 <Bilge> I don't get why vehicles will overtake a "crashed" vehicle but not a broken down one
12:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Bilge: they do, but only on straight road
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12:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> not near curves, stations or crossings
12:56:32 <Ammler> but if you move no-ai to same level as General and Development, confusion would be indeed gone :-)
12:57:33 <orudge> what confusion is there, exactly?
12:57:38 <orudge> nobody's reported anything, as far as I know
12:57:53 <Ammler> orudge: where would you post question about no-ai development?
12:58:03 <orudge> that'd be the NoAI forum
12:58:22 <orudge> perhaps NoAI should be a subforum of OpenTTD Development instead of General OpenTTD
12:58:24 <Alberth> suggestions and feedback, if you want to discuss the forum itself
12:58:56 <Ammler> orudge: then where do you post questions about certain ai?
12:59:06 <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: the problem i have is that i don't care about new posts in the noai subforum, but whenever the noai subforum has a new post, the general forum gets marked as "has new posts" as well, so i have to go there, and mark the subforum as read
12:59:09 <orudge> again, anything AI-related should be in the AI forum
12:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: if it was an equal subforum, i could just ignore it
12:59:35 <Ammler> orudge: which is not obvious since it is a subforum
12:59:40 <planetmaker> orudge: consistency with graphics requires NoAI to be a direct sub-forum of OpenTTD
12:59:51 <planetmaker> not of an OpenTTD sub-forum
12:59:57 <orudge> maybe, but I'd prefer not to clutter up the main forum index too much
13:00:17 <planetmaker> we saw for two, three years now ;-)
13:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i don't think so, the AIs are not TTDP-compatible, so they can be an openttd subforum. just openttd-general sub-subforum is silly
13:00:35 <orudge> and nobody has complained until now, so it seems to be fine ;)
13:00:44 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's what I say
13:00:45 <Bilge> I thought selling road recovered income in the original game? Now it seems everything is just more cost
13:00:45 <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: i complained many times
13:00:57 <planetmaker> but it doesn't make sense to have them a sub-forum of any other openttd-subforum
13:00:57 <orudge> Eddi|zuHause: on the forums itself? I don't recall reading any such tihng
13:01:17 <planetmaker> I think we agree on where it should be. a sub-forum of f=55 ;-)
13:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure, but there was definitely talk in here
13:02:01 <orudge> Eddi|zuHause: then I likely didn't see it, so it can't be considered an official suggestion or complaint :)
13:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm convinced there was a highlight involved as well :p
13:03:25 <Ammler> well, alternative would be remove no-ai completely
13:05:08 <Ammler> hmm, you might need to announce ai releases
13:05:10 <planetmaker> the latter is the initial creation topic
13:05:33 <Ammler> also isn't there time to think about a better name than no-ai?
13:06:22 <Ammler> no-ai is kind of "insiderish"
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13:55:16 <andythenorth> Ammler: you can give me a VM with ssh access?
13:59:07 <Ammler> andythenorth: if you don't have any spedific desire, I setup a suse 11.4 then I can help you, but I could also setup another distro, if you want
13:59:25 <andythenorth> I am only familiar with OS X and FreeBSD
13:59:36 <andythenorth> but the needs are basic
13:59:53 <andythenorth> if it has python 2.6 and ssh I'm happy
14:00:06 <Ammler> you get already 2.7 :-)
14:00:23 <andythenorth> might have to add 2.6
14:00:36 <andythenorth> can't be bothered to figure out differences between the two ;)
14:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> going from 2.6 to 2.7 should be easy. the other way not so much
14:02:28 <andythenorth> I need to be able to scp to it as well
14:02:40 * andythenorth hates scp for various reasons
14:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that's trivial when ssh works
14:03:05 <Ammler> andythenorth: I would hightly recommend to use hg
14:03:13 <andythenorth> Ammler: might do later
14:03:18 <andythenorth> this is just fooling around initially
14:03:53 <andythenorth> it's not worth to setup a remote repo for the learning-pyramid exercises I'm doing
14:04:31 <Ammler> hmm, might be worth to training handling stage and production environment :-)
14:05:27 <andythenorth> I'm picking off one step at a time - the first is running a pyramid on a box
14:05:45 <andythenorth> I'll add hg after that
14:08:28 <Ammler> we use uwsgi for hgweb too
14:08:57 <planetmaker> any URL would do, I guess
14:10:47 <Ammler> andythenorth: I can help you with deploying your wsgi script then
14:11:05 <andythenorth> I don't have one yet :)
14:11:26 <andythenorth> will take a few weeks to do this, one step at a time
14:12:50 <Ammler> yeah, I just meant you don't necessary care about that too :-P
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15:36:59 <planetmaker> he... last ttdp nightly from mid January
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15:51:30 <Terkhen> those commits are from newgrf objects right?
15:51:31 <Bilge> What are you supposed to do about vehicles getting old?
15:52:03 <Thorn_> what any self respecting company doesn't do - replace them
15:52:03 <Yexo> if you play with breakdowns on you could replace them with new vehicles
15:52:44 <Bilge> lol yes but how do I go about it
15:52:53 <Bilge> Manually ordering them into a depot... OK
15:55:54 <Bilge> Auto replace isn't intended to replace "old" vehicles though is it
15:56:10 <Bilge> It's for upgrading to different models, not replacing just the old ones with new ones of the same type
16:03:03 <Bilge> Why does a wood say that I only transport 37% of its monthly production and my station has a poor (32%) rating even though my train never leaves the station with anywhere near a full load and there are no competitiors?
16:03:22 <Bilge> If it actually PUT 100% of the load at the station I could carry it no problem so I don't understand why the production is so low
16:11:30 <Bilge> That doesn't explain why the wood (industry) isn't "putting out"
16:11:46 <Yexo> industry production is linked to station rating
16:12:17 <Bilge> It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that I only have one square of catchment overlapping then?
16:22:59 <planetmaker> hm... one gotta love Deutsche Bahn. As soon as it gets warm and air conditions are needed, the airconditions fail on their high tech trains :-P
16:23:11 <planetmaker> same story as last year ;-)
16:26:30 <Terkhen> because they did not try them at all until now?
16:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> same procedure as every year.
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16:39:10 <Alberth> Terkhen: just a splash of water in a hole, or a smallvector-like thing iirc :)
16:40:31 <Terkhen> what confuses me the most is the strange inheritance and template magic :P
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16:41:30 <Alberth> oh yeah. there are a few members that you want to be able to access from the 'wrong' object without having to prefix it
16:44:11 <Alberth> pool item has a GetNumItems() eg
16:44:33 <Terkhen> I'm also wondering how to deal with the ordering of the persistent storage arrays regarding grfid... I don't think that it is worth the effort of sorting them by grfid for finding them more easily
16:44:48 <Terkhen> so I'm thinking on first stored, first appended to the list
16:45:02 <Alberth> that's what a pool does
16:45:14 <Terkhen> no, I was talking about the list for each town
16:46:13 <Terkhen> oooh, I need multiple inheritance :)
16:46:24 <Alberth> src/misc/hashtable.hpp or src/core/smallmap_type.hpp may be alternatives
16:46:26 <Terkhen> so I must be doing something wrong :P
16:46:45 <Terkhen> but I don't think that those types are prepared to be used in saveload code
16:46:53 <Alberth> C++ has multi-inheritance, except the .NET MS version
16:48:52 <Alberth> you could also sort/hash on a combination of town-id and grf-id
16:48:54 <Rubidium> Terkhen: take a look at how stations store their specs. You could do something similar for towns with their smallmap of persistent storage
16:49:12 <andythenorth> how many TTDP users are there thought to be ?
16:49:31 <Terkhen> I'll check that, thanks
16:49:58 * andythenorth was reading the grf-crawler thread
16:50:23 <andythenorth> extending action 14 to identify content, compatibility seems non-controversial?
16:50:49 <Terkhen> does TTDP supports action14 or just ignores it without crashing?
16:51:19 <Rubidium> Terkhen: if new enough the latter, I hope
16:51:41 <Rubidium> andythenorth: by the looks of it 126 downloads in the last week
16:52:07 <Terkhen> extending action 14 for that would be nice, although you will have a hard time defining types of "content"
16:52:20 <andythenorth> not if it follows the nfo spec
16:52:47 <Rubidium> against 24k for OpenTTD
16:52:52 <andythenorth> stations, trains, ships, aircraft
16:52:52 <Terkhen> each type of Action0 is a type of content?
16:53:10 <Terkhen> then you need to add extras like basecosts, snowline and so on
16:53:44 <Terkhen> I don't know how they are handled but I guess they don't have their own type of action0
16:54:03 <Rubidium> action0general or something?
16:54:07 <andythenorth> some are general yes
16:54:13 <Rubidium> okay, general variable
16:54:16 <andythenorth> I have no problems with doing it that way, limited as it may be
16:54:23 <Terkhen> "action0general = other" then?
16:54:28 <andythenorth> it has some problems, but perfect is enemy of good
16:55:00 <Rubidium> Terkhen: but... it's also used for e.g. engine overrides and translation tables (cargo, railtype)
16:55:30 <Terkhen> that classification also fails to distinguish between buses/trucks and trams, or between trains using different rail types
16:55:39 <Terkhen> but those are not big issues IMO
16:55:48 <andythenorth> trams are a definite entity currently
16:55:55 <andythenorth> their movement code is different
16:56:03 <Terkhen> but they use the same action0 than normal road vehicles
16:56:04 <planetmaker> openttd already has an internal table which keeps track of used features, that is action0.
16:56:18 <planetmaker> Not sure whether all action0 types are considered, though
16:56:20 <Rubidium> pff... maybe define some default tags for NewGRFs which the author can set, or bananas can provide a suggest for when the newgrf is uploaded
16:56:23 <andythenorth> I wouldn't do this programmatically, it would be action 14 or other using keywords from a fixed dictionary
16:56:34 <andythenorth> we control the dictionary, no-one else
16:56:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you can parse the action0s ;-)
16:56:44 <Eddi|zuHause> <Terkhen> does TTDP supports action14 or just ignores it without crashing? <- newer versions ignore it, older versions reject the grf due to invalid sprite
16:57:06 <planetmaker> but... that's probably too much
16:57:18 <planetmaker> some pre-made categories are fine
16:57:33 <andythenorth> and if some author disagrees, there's a process to lobby to change them
16:57:34 <planetmaker> you could take grf crawler's categories
16:57:39 <planetmaker> and add the new ones openttd supports
16:57:51 <planetmaker> or maybe a bit more fine-grained
16:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> pre-made categories and an auto-suggest by grf content (used actions)
16:58:24 <andythenorth> I liked the action 14 suggestion by alberth best
16:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. alpine.grf would get "houses, industries", NARS gets "trains, cargos"
16:58:49 <planetmaker> like bridges, rail tracks (=infrastruc), trams, road vehicles, aircraft, trains, maglev, monorail, metro, narrow gauge as sub-categories
16:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause> trees.grf gets "landscape, static"
16:58:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause both of those should be verboten :P :D
16:59:07 <planetmaker> static. VERY good and important point
16:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i agree. but they do exist :p
16:59:23 <planetmaker> no GUI ingame yet, but ...
16:59:25 <andythenorth> this needs turning into a spec :)
16:59:33 * andythenorth will have to bath the baby in two minutes
16:59:37 <andythenorth> but maybe time later
16:59:48 <planetmaker> sounds like dejà vu
16:59:50 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd already checks whether a grf can be static. you can just copy that check
16:59:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that's babies
16:59:58 <andythenorth> same shit, different day
17:00:13 <andythenorth> incidentally, if I do manage to recode bananas...
17:00:27 <andythenorth> ...and add some web pages per grf
17:00:39 <andythenorth> it would have to only be grfs allowed to be distributed with openttd imo
17:00:51 <andythenorth> I don't fancy supporting some extra system for mad people
17:01:12 <andythenorth> people who don't allow their grf on the content service are wrong and not playing properly
17:01:15 <Terkhen> it shouldn't support anything that cannot be downloaded ingame
17:01:18 <planetmaker> it'd mean unnecessary extra work.
17:01:28 <planetmaker> either allow that or don't use it
17:01:29 <andythenorth> don't support the anti-social
17:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> there aren't really that many grfs that disallow distribution
17:01:41 <andythenorth> there's one famous one I believe
17:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> some canset version was "withdrawn"
17:02:16 <andythenorth> incidentally, someone explained to me once why a GPL grf doesn't need to display a gpl notification in game
17:02:18 * planetmaker doesn't want to remember those times
17:02:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth: because it simply doesn't require that
17:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you don't need to know the license for using the program
17:02:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only for modifying/distributing
17:02:55 <andythenorth> there was a specific license FAQ about it somewhere
17:03:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so displaying it ingame is pointless
17:03:08 <planetmaker> BUT: if you modify a gpl'ed programme which has that display: then you must not remove it
17:03:16 <andythenorth> I thought it fell on the wrong side of an interactive program should display the license as part of its startup
17:03:20 <andythenorth> but apparently not
17:03:44 <Terkhen> this is a non-issue anyways: supporting stuff that can't be downloaded ingame does not serve any purpose
17:03:51 <andythenorth> anyways, I was also wondering about extending action 14 with a license field
17:03:56 <planetmaker> thus: if original author doesn't do it: you can but need not. If s/he does: then you need to
17:03:56 <Terkhen> it is detrimental to openttd and to its players
17:04:08 <andythenorth> but does a license field serve any purpose?
17:04:41 <andythenorth> bananas already has that on the web interface
17:04:58 <Terkhen> I don't think that it is worth to add a action14 field with a license, the tars already include the license inside them
17:05:14 <andythenorth> the general direction I would like to go is to have action 14 encapsulate as much metadata as possible along with the grf
17:05:25 <andythenorth> then the information travels with the file
17:05:27 <Terkhen> and including the license in the tar is compatible for other types of content
17:05:44 <Terkhen> so IMO action 14 should only store newgrf specific info
17:06:12 <Terkhen> anything else such as license or other metadata common to all data types should be stored in the tar, openttd can access that too and it would be common
17:06:25 <Terkhen> s/data types/content types/
17:06:32 <andythenorth> like a manifest?
17:06:46 <Terkhen> IIRC there is a file with metadata already
17:06:55 <Terkhen> but I'm not sure about that :P
17:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but including all sorts of metadata in action 14 (like translated readmes etc.) means you have to duplicate a lot of data, or have grfcodec fill them in automatically (which it won't, so you need other programs like cpp)
17:07:57 <andythenorth> it might be a bad idea
17:08:07 <Terkhen> readmes should definitely be distributed in the tar
17:08:38 <planetmaker> also... a re-write of bananas IMHO should not touch a14. Or possibly I just don't see why and where
17:08:58 <planetmaker> maybe tags... but...
17:08:59 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's maybe a different purpose I have in mind
17:09:05 <andythenorth> basically around tags yes
17:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the rewrite of bananas would be totally independent from extending action 14
17:09:24 <planetmaker> yep. It'd make things needlessly complicated
17:09:27 <Eddi|zuHause> after all, each grf author could still leave out entries from action 14
17:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> then bananas must still work
17:09:49 <andythenorth> I think that action 14 should become required....but that is a way off probably
17:10:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't make things required, grf specs are defined to be upwards compatible
17:10:28 <andythenorth> I was thinking instead about filtering the grfs you already have
17:10:38 <andythenorth> you can find new grfs with the slightly-not-optimum tags
17:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause> any grf from before action 14 was introduced must still work in the future
17:10:47 <andythenorth> but you can't find train grfs in your existing grfs
17:11:12 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you can require it of uploaded content, or of new newgrfs, by e.g. having grfcodec and nml fail without
17:11:31 <andythenorth> why can't we patch old grfs? Apart from it's boring....
17:11:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth: because then they're new grfs
17:12:00 <andythenorth> and we don't have the rights
17:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: differing md5 sum
17:12:10 <Alberth> you need to have permission by the license
17:12:16 <andythenorth> so another idea I have: only distribute new newgrfs that have a license allowing modification
17:12:27 <andythenorth> it would cause a few months of argument
17:12:33 <andythenorth> then everyone would get on with it
17:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: technically, you don't. you can modify programs without permission "to provide interoperability"
17:12:52 <andythenorth> I think it's dumb that some authors want to take their work to the grave with them
17:13:02 <andythenorth> or to the point where they get bored, leaving stuff unfinished / broken
17:13:09 <Terkhen> I'm guessing that allowing only certain licenses was already discussed and rejected before bananas was actually implemented :)
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17:13:27 <Terkhen> I don't think that we should force people to use licenses allowing modification
17:13:27 <andythenorth> there are some big noises who don't agree with copyleft style licensing
17:13:31 <Alberth> andythenorth: so the problem resolves itself in time
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17:13:48 <andythenorth> the landscape has changed imo - far more people contributing work now under gpl
17:13:51 <Terkhen> if those people don't want to use such licenses, they might have their reasons
17:14:04 <Terkhen> we can only rally new people to a certain way of doing things
17:14:13 <Terkhen> and I think that has been working lately :)
17:14:36 * planetmaker would actually only hope that george and pikka would use more permissable licenses
17:14:44 <planetmaker> more community-friendly ones
17:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imposing license restrictions is _not_ the point of bananas
17:14:49 <andythenorth> pikka is up a creek without a paddle
17:15:09 <andythenorth> pikka can't use a copyleft license because he doesn't have copyright in a lot of his sprites :)
17:15:30 <andythenorth> so my idea would deprive me of some of my favourite grfs :(
17:15:36 <George> planetmaker: What problem do you have with the license?
17:15:51 <planetmaker> George: same what we discussed already: the -ND part
17:16:04 <planetmaker> Should you fall of Earth no one can continue to carry on your work
17:16:07 <George> What is wrong with it?
17:16:25 <planetmaker> Like I for example did with TTRS
17:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, after 70 years
17:16:40 <planetmaker> or 95. Or whenever
17:16:58 <George> FIRS team has personal GPL for any art/code I created
17:17:11 <andythenorth> I think quite a lot of pikka's stuff is now 100% original
17:17:18 <andythenorth> he just finds licensing silly :)
17:18:01 <George> FIRS team can use it even not waiting till my death
17:18:08 <andythenorth> or should it be self.bath("baby") ?
17:18:30 <George> If anyone plans to do it too - request me and get your personal license
17:18:33 <planetmaker> George: I don't want to argue really. This is also not that I need a special sprite now or any code. I know that you always are very willing to share and I had always only got a positive answer from you whenever I asked you about something related to it
17:18:34 <Alberth> George: the point is anybody should be able to do that
17:18:40 <andythenorth> or house.bath("baby", "_self")
17:19:03 <andythenorth> or portalFactory.invokeBath("Baby", __this__) ?
17:19:15 <andythenorth> my wife thinks none of above
17:19:16 <George> Alberth: This anybody can request me
17:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <George> If anyone plans to do it too - request me and get your personal license <-- in debian speak, this fails the desert island test.
17:19:21 <planetmaker> The point, as Alberth says: if you suddenly vanish. Only andythenorth and myself could use that for FIRS
17:19:29 <andythenorth> my wife's method is BATH.NOW
17:19:35 <Alberth> George: which is kind of hard after you got hit by a bus
17:19:43 * planetmaker assignes andythenorth to BATH
17:20:09 <George> > use that for FIRS <- not only for FIRS. For anything under GPL
17:20:26 <planetmaker> hm... why then not GPL the thing?
17:20:42 <Alberth> what are you afraid of?
17:20:52 <George> because ECS includes graphics, that were crated by others
17:21:20 <planetmaker> that's definitely a valid point. They would need to agree
17:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there are two ways to solve that. either ask them for permission to change license, or replace those graphics
17:22:36 <George> I have the permission to use it for ECS, but I never asked the permission to use it for something else. So GPL seems does not fit
17:23:42 <George> > or replace those graphics <- I suppose I'll die first than it would happen :D
17:24:07 <George> But as you could see, it is done slowly
17:24:20 <planetmaker> George: could you - or does it exist - make a list of graphics which you drew yourself and could grant license to use in GPL projects?
17:24:41 <planetmaker> or where modification is allowed under the condition of attribution?
17:24:48 <planetmaker> rather readme ;-)
17:25:02 <planetmaker> or is that there?
17:25:13 <George> > make a list of graphics which you drew yourself and could grant license to use in GPL projects? < - this is possible
17:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> wiki is the ecs readme :p
17:25:39 <planetmaker> George: and I assume the code is exclusively by you?
17:25:54 <Alberth> in the extreme case you could split the grf in a gpl part and non-free part, but that may be too extreme
17:26:30 <George> > George: and I assume the code is exclusively by you? <- Yes
17:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> well, putting them in different places in the source code would be enough
17:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> like sprites/gpl and sprites/nonfree directories
17:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> then someone who downloads the code can easily distinguish them
17:28:43 <planetmaker> that'd be pretty cool
17:29:59 <Alberth> the 'others' have left already?
17:30:52 <Alberth> tt-forums may still have an email address
17:33:17 <George> Eddi|zuHause: If someone would help me to do it ... currently we did not finish with TTRS ... And devzone is not the thing that is "userfriendly" for me. As I wrote several times, I need someone to help me with it. After I get familar with devzone with TTRS, the next step would be to move ECS to devzone. But I would need help to do it too.
17:33:25 <planetmaker> for some NewGRFs that's quite a fruitless endeavour as I know from my own experience - and that was 2 or 3 years ago
17:33:52 <planetmaker> George: I can only offer help :-)
17:34:01 <planetmaker> And there are several levels of how it can be used
17:34:15 <planetmaker> but all indeed require the use of a revision control system
17:34:17 <George> Alberth: No. But as I wrote, I NEVER requested them to provide a wider license
17:34:24 <planetmaker> which... is a certain entry barrier
17:35:29 <planetmaker> but one cannot use it without as that's the core of the thing
17:36:08 <Alberth> and it is a useful step, much like from writing at paper to writing using a computer
17:36:31 <Bilge> Why is permitting a train to reverse at a station a "difficulty setting"?
17:36:53 <Alberth> all settings influence difficulty
17:37:08 <Alberth> but mainly hysteric raisins
17:38:36 <Alberth> quite lilely that setting was added before advanced settings existed
17:39:05 <Alberth> or before 'config patches' existed, the previous name of advanced settings :p
17:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an original game setting
17:45:17 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22544 /trunk/src/lang/ (romanian.txt vietnamese.txt):
17:45:17 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:17 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: romanian - 5 changes by tonny
17:45:17 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 3 changes by myquartz
17:49:35 <Bilge> Can you change the "[far end]" instruction?
17:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, click on it
17:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you can set a default value in the advanced settings
17:58:35 <andythenorth> one of the good things about the baby.bath() method is that you can pass in a helper function which will be called when the method returns
17:59:04 <andythenorth> or, if you have a sensible framework, you can pass in an object name and rely on the object's default methods to sort it out
17:59:12 <andythenorth> so in this case I can pass "Wife"
17:59:23 <andythenorth> if the object has no methods it might raise an objection
17:59:33 <andythenorth> which is what happens if I pass "self.Brother"
17:59:50 <andythenorth> if I just pass "teddyBear" the error passes silently
18:00:07 <andythenorth> until the baby process timesout and raises to the main thread
18:00:07 <Rubidium> ghehe... do I hear a 'main' and 'non-free' repository for bananas? Where 'main' is always compiled from source, i.e. the source is uploaded?
18:00:24 <andythenorth> oh - you concluded that too?
18:00:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, you're mixing two different argumentations :p
18:00:40 <andythenorth> along with automatically adding new action 14 to old grfs by recompiling them?
18:01:58 <Terkhen> I don't think you can do that to newgrfs with certain licenses, even if it is done automatically
18:02:24 <andythenorth> and no-one laughed at my baby jokes :P
18:02:31 * andythenorth will have a beer
18:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: too few people with a baby (in the same development stage) around
18:03:42 <andythenorth> belugas would have laughed :|
18:04:03 * andythenorth is about to make severely hypocritical argument and expects to be shot down twice
18:04:15 * andythenorth uses original TTD graphics
18:04:23 <andythenorth> and one of my favourite sets is canset
18:04:38 <andythenorth> but still I think openttd should insist on gpl or similar for content
18:05:00 <andythenorth> (if distributing, not checking when loaded or anything silly like that)
18:05:05 <Rubidium> andythenorth: ofcourse you're using the DOS graphics like I am, right?
18:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: nope, you'll drown in arguments whether X license is "free enough"
18:05:33 <andythenorth> openttd doesn't drown in those
18:05:58 <andythenorth> I miss what's even controversial about this
18:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> is CC-BY-NC "free enough"?
18:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> is CC-BY-ND "free enough"?
18:06:17 * Prof_Frink is currently playing a TempSet game for maximum oldschoolness
18:06:18 <andythenorth> the game is GPL. Those making content from the game benefit from the work of hundreds of others
18:06:24 <andythenorth> why do they get a free pass?
18:06:35 <Terkhen> andythenorth: you might want to check discussions about this same issue in the package systems of many linux distributions
18:06:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so any program that runs on windows must be under the windows license?
18:07:06 * andythenorth expects to get shot down :P
18:07:14 <andythenorth> I just can't get it
18:07:24 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: NC would be debatable in my eyes, ND I wouldn't consider free at all (both in the context of OpenTTD)
18:07:31 <andythenorth> I don't understand the attitude of not using GPL, no matter how much I try
18:07:54 <Rubidium> it does not imply that ND/NC content should be banned at all cost though
18:08:05 <andythenorth> to me it's quite binary, either you're making software to sell (for a living or beer money), or you make software for free
18:08:10 *** ashledombos has joined #openttd
18:08:18 <andythenorth> if you make software for free, it should be free, not some half-assed crap
18:08:30 <Terkhen> for a content system IMO it is better to have some stuff with a restricted license than to not have it at all
18:08:39 <andythenorth> it's parasitic imo
18:08:43 <andythenorth> those people are parasites
18:08:43 <Terkhen> because having stuff is better than not having stuff :P
18:08:58 <andythenorth> some parasites are beneficial :P
18:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you are drawing things too black and white
18:09:09 <Rubidium> andythenorth: NC is there to prevent others from making money of your work, which is usually more interesting for arty stuff (graphics, music, etc)
18:09:12 <Prof_Frink> Those are called symbiotes.
18:09:16 <Eddi|zuHause> GPL isn't the "ultimate freedom" either
18:09:17 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I often do :P
18:09:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it has also quite heavy restrictions
18:09:25 * andythenorth requests a 2 colour palette
18:09:31 <Rubidium> as those are easier to use by commercial entities
18:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> CC-BY is "much free-er" in most aspects than GPL
18:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> or even CC-BY-SA
18:10:40 <andythenorth> so is this a general "yes", general "no" or general "we don't want to face the arguments" ?
18:11:17 <Terkhen> new sets with licenses that don't allow modification are becoming more and more rare, we should focus on that instead of worrying about old sets
18:11:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm a "general no" to bananas license restrictions
18:11:28 <Terkhen> meanwhile, it is nice to have the old sets around too
18:11:39 <Rubidium> andythenorth: d) we'd be hypocritical to not allow anything that is non-free-ish
18:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause> because there is no sane argument for "yes" that couldn't be torn apart
18:11:59 <andythenorth> Rubidium: because...?
18:12:26 <Rubidium> it's license can't be considered particularly "free"
18:13:21 <Bilge> I like that people are prepared to pay full bus fare as long as they are delivered to their destination within a month
18:13:26 <Rubidium> it falls in the CC-BY-NC category
18:14:31 <Rubidium> i.e. no commercial distribution
18:14:43 * andythenorth ponders adding a social factor
18:15:16 <andythenorth> OT: google does / did improve rank for pages made with semantically valid html
18:15:23 <andythenorth> that's a technical and political decision by goole
18:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> if i would order licenses by "free-ness" i'd say "public domain" [not really a license], CC-BY, CC-BY-SA, GPL, CC-BY-ND, CC-BY-NC.
18:15:50 <andythenorth> means there's lots of spam blogs with standards-compliant markup :P
18:16:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: don't discuss PD with MB
18:16:42 <andythenorth> in his view, it's not free at all
18:16:51 <andythenorth> depending on legal jurisdiction
18:17:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (that last one is probably more a view whether "free-beer-ness" is more important than "free-speech-ness", though)
18:17:52 <andythenorth> my criteria are simple: (1) can it be distributed via bananas (2) can it be be modified and redistributed (in our case for maintenance purposes, but there's obviously no limit on why)
18:18:35 <andythenorth> my stuff is GPL for a third reason, can other people learn / copy from it easily for their sets, but that's non-essential
18:19:16 <andythenorth> (1) should be covered by bananas current ToS anyway
18:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause> bananas has absolutely no business enforcing (2)
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18:22:39 *** ar3k is now known as ar3kaw
18:26:13 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: WTFPL is probably the closest legally agreed form of PD
18:26:40 <andythenorth> which wiki is best place to start an article on desirable newgrf standards?
18:26:52 <andythenorth> *desirable* being the significant word
18:27:06 <andythenorth> openttd wiki? devzone? ttdp wiki?
18:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the grf-wiki's tutorial section?
18:27:48 <andythenorth> I wonder if that wiki needs to be deprecated...
18:28:05 <Alberth> ttdp due to its home of newgrfs, or devzone for its neutrality
18:28:09 <andythenorth> increasingly I think devzone might be the key place for ottd newgrf development
18:28:32 <Rubidium> though it has openttd in its url
18:28:33 <andythenorth> I don't spend much time in the ottd wiki, and devzone is where to go for newgrf projects
18:28:52 * andythenorth is not bothered about neutrality
18:28:54 <Yexo> but almost every project on the devzone already has an open license
18:29:05 <Yexo> so the people who read it there already got the message
18:29:22 <andythenorth> a forum sticky might be useful
18:29:49 <andythenorth> this would be more than just 60pixel red type saying 'use a good license' :)
18:30:12 * andythenorth votes ttdp or devzone
18:30:22 <andythenorth> ttdp is more likely to provoke...argument
18:30:48 <Terkhen> if you are going to get arguments you will get them no matter where you post it
18:30:55 * andythenorth doesn't mind arguments
18:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> devzone might be more likely to be completely unknown to newcomers
18:31:06 <andythenorth> except from a few people
18:31:27 <andythenorth> another way of answering the question: where will newgrf spec be maintained?
18:31:29 <Terkhen> besides, ttdp is still the official place, until those talks about moving the specs to a unified wiki become something real
18:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause> devzone isn't very google-friendly either
18:32:24 <andythenorth> where is nml spec maintained?
18:33:38 <andythenorth> which will be the recommended authoring language? nfo or nml?
18:33:47 <andythenorth> or do we sit on the fence :P
18:33:56 <Rubidium> maybe start a newgrf.org
18:34:10 <Rubidium> with nfo.newgrf.org for nfo specs
18:34:15 <Rubidium> nml.newgrf.org for nml specs
18:34:23 <Rubidium> dev.newgrf.org for development stuff
18:34:23 <andythenorth> the domain appears to be available
18:34:38 <Rubidium> crawler.newgrf.org for a crawler/bananas kind of thing
18:34:51 * andythenorth can't tell when Rubidium is serious / satirical :P
18:35:17 <planetmaker> it might be politically the right thing - as stupid as it is
18:35:25 <Terkhen> nml is still not feature complete
18:35:38 <andythenorth> someone got an account with a domain provider?
18:35:53 <andythenorth> mine are all work related and the paperwork is a hassle :P
18:35:54 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I think Olivia's father does
18:36:05 <andythenorth> I'll happily pay hosting
18:36:21 <Terkhen> you should give the matter more thought before jumping on it :P
18:36:32 <andythenorth> that's not how I got to be as rich and famous as I am :P
18:36:47 * andythenorth has acres of pointless domains
18:36:58 <andythenorth> and is neither rich nor famous
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18:37:30 <andythenorth> if someone buys that, I'll paypal the cost
18:37:51 <andythenorth> meanwhile, I wanted to start a page on what we think makes a nice newgrf
18:37:51 <planetmaker> just do it, if you like ;-)
18:38:52 <andythenorth> I could put a page on my site, but it's not very editable by others (unless you are aware of the security holes in the framework)
18:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> was that a challenge? :p
18:41:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth: do you need another VM? :-P
18:44:39 <Rubidium> oh... I forgot tools.newgrf.org
18:45:06 <Rubidium> with grfcodec/nforenum, grfmaker, m4nfo (if it ever were released), ...
18:46:50 <Rubidium> but I really think it'd be a good way to unite the different newgrf related things
18:47:10 <Terkhen> although I like Rubidium's idea :)
18:47:26 <planetmaker> yes. It's politically sane
18:47:41 <planetmaker> and would give also control to more than one person over the newgrf wiki
18:49:23 <Rubidium> and I guess Owen is willing to pay the domain costs from OpenTTD's donations
18:50:05 <planetmaker> should be feasible
18:50:25 <andythenorth> or I'll kick some money in for it
18:50:31 <andythenorth> I never donated to openttdcoop
18:50:36 <andythenorth> despite trying many times :P
18:50:51 <Rubidium> though it would be purely for NewGRF things I'd say
18:51:37 <Rubidium> and the specs would be separate wiki instances; not sure whether there should be general wiki for non-spec stuff though (e.g. the many pages about ECS in the ttdp wiki)
18:52:15 <planetmaker> that doesn't make sense in the newgrf wiki
18:52:26 <planetmaker> that IMHO should move to the general openttd wiki
18:53:47 <Rubidium> though, maybe dev.newgrf.org/ecs/wiki, or newgrf.org/ecs/wiki, or something along that line would be fine as well
18:55:27 <peter1138> rather than blah.newgrf.org
18:57:47 <andythenorth> subdomains seem to be out of fashion
18:57:50 <andythenorth> can't remember why
18:57:58 <andythenorth> probably a google related reason :P
18:58:23 <andythenorth> meanwhile, does anyone want to kick at these while I eat / rescue my wife from a non-sleeping baby?
18:58:44 <Alberth> difference between . and / is too complicated for the general public :p
19:02:45 <andythenorth> what is the thinking currently on disabling default vehicles?
19:02:59 <andythenorth> (if you are authoring a vehicle newgrf)
19:06:44 <andythenorth> should a train set disable default trains?
19:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on whether you provide a complete all-purpose set
19:08:44 <andythenorth> there's a grf that re-enables them?
19:09:40 *** Chris_Booth_ has joined #openttd
19:09:40 <andythenorth> I've added all I can think of to that wiki page ^^
19:09:47 <andythenorth> it's not exactly tablets of stone :P
19:10:17 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth
19:12:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: your forum suggestion wrt grf-crawler and bananas makes sense
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19:59:58 <Bilge> How are you supposed to know what the best AI is to download
20:01:20 <Rubidium> How are we supposed to know what you think is "best" for an AI?
20:07:49 <Bilge> I forgot you're too robotic to be subjective :3
20:08:11 <Bilge> On that note, is it possible for ordinary humans to understand the signalling system?
20:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> we're totally subjective, alright. but why would you assume that would be in your interest?
20:09:20 <Bilge> I thought someone might be followed the AI development and have an opinion on which one is the best to use
20:10:03 <Yexo> Bilge: I'm sure several people have on opinion on that
20:10:11 <Yexo> I'm also sure that if you ask 5 different people you'll get 5 different answers
20:10:20 <Yexo> in other words: each answer is useless for you
20:10:42 <planetmaker> Bilge: then read the NoAI subforum
20:10:46 <planetmaker> there are AI tests there
20:10:53 <Rubidium> There was a competition that showed that Rondje is the best
20:11:03 <planetmaker> one that NoCAB is best
20:11:07 <planetmaker> one that AIAI is best
20:11:12 <planetmaker> one that... AdmiralAI is best
20:11:21 <Rubidium> but undoubtedly if you're playing with it you'll get extremely annoyed by it
20:11:23 <planetmaker> ... half of them one one competition at least :-)
20:11:36 <planetmaker> s/one one/won one/
20:12:00 * Eddi|zuHause recommends playing without any AI
20:12:32 <Rubidium> as Rondje is a parasite AI; it lets other AIs build routes and then starts competing with you for cargo on that exact route
20:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> someone should do a "Rondje om de kerk" fork and call it "Mit der Kirche ums Dorf"
20:14:57 <planetmaker> are you sure you translate it correctly, Eddi|zuHause ?
20:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> not word-by-word, but from how i understood it it's a similar meaning
20:17:02 <Rubidium> "rondje om de kerk" is famous because of train drivers who didn't want to drive the same route every day, so losely it translates to driving "circles around the church"
20:18:28 <Rubidium> not that many routes in the NL are circular
20:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the german "mit der Kirche ums Dorf" means making something unnecessarily complicated (and arriving back where you started)
20:19:46 <Rubidium> that's something different
20:20:01 * planetmaker never heard that alleged proverb
20:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the opposite of that is "die Kirche im Dorf lassen" [slowing down the pace (of a discussion)]
20:22:57 <Rubidium> actually, I don't think there's a circular route in the NL at all
20:25:40 <Terkhen> good night planetmaker
20:32:06 <Sacro> can i change "build on slopes" in a running game?
20:32:21 <Sacro> it seems to be disabled :\
20:34:10 <frosch123> you can only in single player
20:34:34 <frosch123> multiplayer is not allowed, because that setting is exposed to newgrfs
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20:35:25 <Eddi|zuHause> someone should do a "screws up your game (do not use!)" grf :p
20:35:37 <George> Does anybody know how to read several layers from PSD into PNG by a script?
20:35:57 <andythenorth> George: planetmaker figured that out recently using gimp
20:36:03 <Yexo> George: planetmaker implemented that recently with gimp
20:36:12 <andythenorth> you could use a photoshop action to do it
20:36:31 <George> We had a large discussion with him today
20:36:49 <George> He found how to get it by layer number
20:37:12 <George> but he does not know how to read them by layer name
20:37:29 <andythenorth> if it were possible, I could rethink my workflow for vehicle grfs
20:37:46 <Yexo> George: do you have an example psd file I could do a few tests with?
20:38:00 <George> andythenorth: photoshop action to do it <- how to run it from bat file?
20:38:04 <Eddi|zuHause> gnah... this download never ends... :(
20:38:08 <andythenorth> George: not sure
20:38:17 <andythenorth> on a mac photoshop can be scripted
20:38:35 <andythenorth> probably on other OS too
20:39:30 <George> andythenorth: there are actions in photoshop, but where are scripts?
20:39:48 <George> I have Photoshop 7 - may be it is too old?
20:40:05 <welshdragon> in Linux, where do I put my openttd.cfg?
20:40:15 <welshdragon> I've forgotten ;/
20:40:23 <George> andythenorth: if it were possible, I could rethink my workflow for vehicle grfs<- I suppose we were speaking about similar topic :)
20:40:33 <andythenorth> I haven't researched this idea at all yet
20:40:38 <welshdragon> (it's been 8 months since i last used Linux)
20:40:46 <andythenorth> but it would make cargo sprites etc much easier to output
20:41:45 <Rubidium> welshdragon: in the same place as on windows, i.e. where the readme says it should be
20:42:01 <George> andythenorth: I'll have a look
20:42:29 <welshdragon> yeah, I need to not be in root
20:45:31 <Terkhen> George: we have a working example on opengfx+ road vehicles, it uses GIMP and as you mentioned it only works with layer numbers
20:46:17 <Terkhen> layer names would be more interesting :)
20:46:33 <George> Terkhen: I had a large discussion with planetmaker today (last 3 hours).
20:46:34 <Rubidium> maybe there's some caveat, like layer names not being enforced to be unique or something similar?
20:46:54 <George> Rubidium: Yes, they are not unique
20:46:59 <Terkhen> ok, then you already know what I could tell you about the script :)
20:47:06 <George> but it is not a problem
20:47:32 <George> even photoshop actions pick up the first one with a name specified
20:47:43 <George> the same would be fine for a script too
20:51:01 <welshdragon> ~/.openttd doesn't exist :/
20:53:34 <Bilge> I'm trying to create a server but it doesn't seem to be binding to my Internet IP - I've opened the port 3979 but nobody can connect because it seem to only be bound to my local IP :(
20:56:05 *** josepr83 has joined #openttd
20:56:51 <George> andythenorth: If you would find a way to move data from layers by names from PSD to PNG with scripting - please let me know!
20:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Bilge: by default it binds to all incoming interfaces
20:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Bilge: unless you override that
20:57:31 <andythenorth> George: did you find the documentation with that scripting plugin?
20:57:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Bilge: also you must add port forwarding in your router/modem
20:58:40 <andythenorth> George: there's a pdf manual with the mac version of the plugin
20:59:46 <andythenorth> it's not an ideal solution as it's mac / windows only
20:59:52 <andythenorth> a cross-platform solution would be better
21:01:05 <andythenorth> George: can you do it with a photoshop action?
21:01:06 <Eddi|zuHause> "homage (french for 'theft')"
21:01:09 <andythenorth> I might try that one time
21:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "revival (english for 'theft')"
21:01:28 <andythenorth> I already had an action for exporting pcx when they were needed
21:01:39 <Bilge> Eddi: I have port forwarded on my router
21:02:28 <andythenorth> something like that yes
21:03:06 <George> andythenorth: George: can you do it with a photoshop action? <- I can do an action that would assemble sprite from PSD and save it as PNG, but I would need an action for every sprite. Not a thing I want to do :(
21:03:20 <andythenorth> George: this is for industries?
21:03:28 <josepr83> I thought Fireworks could make a PNG homologous to the PSD in Photoshop.
21:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Bilge: both TCP and UDP?
21:05:48 * andythenorth thinks that players should be able to pay to allow adding newgrf to a running game :P
21:06:04 <andythenorth> George: I considered automating psd->png for FIRS, I think it's way too hard
21:06:31 <andythenorth> I draw each building as one piece, then they have to be cut - well - as you know ;)
21:06:40 <andythenorth> so an action might never work
21:07:06 <andythenorth> on the other hand, vehicles are all to a template, so cargos are a good case for an action
21:07:16 <George> josepr83: Would it be possible to run script outside Photoshop? (it may be running in background)
21:07:46 <George> or call Photoshop to run a script
21:07:50 <josepr83> I don't think so. The scripts were made to work via PS.
21:08:37 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
21:09:13 <George> I have to go to bad, Bye!
21:09:26 <josepr83> Happy going to 'bad'.
21:19:56 *** hgnmu128 has joined #openttd
21:20:50 *** hgnmu128 has joined #openttd
21:21:01 <Bilge> Why are my glasses normal now instead of shades? Can't you choose your glasses type? D:
21:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> use ones with polarization filters
21:54:13 *** hgnmu128 has joined #openttd
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22:14:12 <Bilge> How do you password your company?
22:15:22 <Zuu> Click the button with a man in a hat in the menu bar
22:15:33 <Zuu> So that you show the company window
22:15:40 <Zuu> There you have a button to set password.
22:16:34 <Zuu> You may also set a default password in your openttd.cfg and you will no longer have to worry about remembering to set a password.
22:35:13 *** hgnmu128 has joined #openttd
22:39:29 <Bilge> Oh yeah, but only when the game is started in multi
22:41:09 <Zuu> How would password protection make sense in single player?
22:43:22 <Cursarion^> no one messing with his game
22:44:30 <Yexo> yes, only it's singleplayer, that means the savegame is on his computer, so nobody could mess with it anyway
23:05:41 <Zuu> If he is on a shared computer, he should seek general solutions in his operating system.
23:06:00 <Sacro> Anyone built chillcore patchpack against 1.1?
23:10:15 <Bilge> I was just remarking that I hadn't noticed the button before because I mostly spent time in single player so didn't expect to find it there in multi
23:15:42 *** anythingffs has joined #openttd
23:16:44 <anythingffs> guys, i have a version conflict between my server and a map\scenario i want to run, is there a way to update the maps to the latest version?
23:19:16 <anythingffs> or do i have to find the 0.7 version that the map works with?
23:43:56 <anythingffs> why would a not be able to support multiplayer?
23:44:10 *** anythingffs is now known as alba0andy
23:44:20 *** alba0andy is now known as alba-andy
23:44:44 <alba-andy> dbg: [net] The loading savegame was paused due to an error state.
23:44:44 <alba-andy> dbg: [net] The savegame cannot be used for multiplayer!
23:44:44 <alba-andy> dbg: [net] Loading game failed, so a new (random) game will be started!
23:48:39 <alba-andy> ah, ive edited the scenario to remove the extra grfs
23:50:05 *** hgnmu128 has joined #openttd
23:52:44 * hgnmu128 wants to ask alba-andy what error it is, but waiting.
23:54:21 <Zuu> alba-andy: do you use the same OpenTTD for playing as well as for your server?
23:54:48 <Zuu> If not, the NewGRF problem could be likely to be the cause.
23:55:32 <Zuu> Another problem is if you have built the scenario in a patched version of OpenTTD.
23:56:04 <Zuu> Btw, why version 0.7 and not the last stable (1.1)?
23:56:51 <alba-andy> im using 1.1 on the server but the map doesnt seem to support more than 0.7
23:57:40 <alba-andy> i tried opening it and resaving it in scenario editor (hoping that it would update the version) but the server still isnt having it
23:57:51 <alba-andy> same error that appears above
23:58:54 <Zuu> If a savegame from unpatched 0.7 where you have not modified the NewGRFs in-game does not work in 1.1, I would say that's a bug.
23:59:09 <Zuu> But you said something above about changing NewGRFs in the game?
continue to next day ⏵
