IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-06
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00:02:08 <Zuu> You could also try to load the game in 1.1 in non-dedicated mode and use the feature to fetch missing NewGRFs from bananas.
00:03:54 <alba-andy> aye something not right here
00:04:03 <alba-andy> thanks for the suggestions
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00:52:39 <alba-andy> im just trying to get a specific map loading in a 1.1 server
00:53:03 <alba-andy> i doubt that there are any AI's installed, would that cause the crash?
00:53:08 <alba-andy> ... or the not loading
01:31:49 <alba-andy> is there a way to download content via the commandline?
01:34:26 <alba-andy> i have found it impossible to move a .scn that works on a windows 1.1 to a linux 1.1 server, always same error
01:35:59 <Yexo> alba-andy: did you compile the version on your linux server yourself?
01:36:42 <alba-andy> the server works with a random map
01:37:13 <Yexo> you can try starting the server with -d sl=9 and see if you get more usable output
01:38:02 <alba-andy> dbg: [sl] Nulling pointers
01:38:12 <alba-andy> for 10 or so things
01:38:40 <alba-andy> dbg: [sl] All pointers nulled
01:38:41 <alba-andy> dbg: [sl] Game Load Failed
01:39:47 <Yexo> you have to give the complete filename as argument ,including .sav
01:39:59 <Yexo> so "openttd -g file.sav" or similar
01:41:10 <alba-andy> does it have to be a .sav or is .scn the same?
01:41:18 <alba-andy> tried both anyway, just wondering
01:41:37 <Yexo> not sure if you can directly load a scenario in a multiplayer server
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07:33:46 <Eddi|zuHause> why can't i run X programs from within a screen session?
07:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i log in with ssh -X, and can run them from there. but when i start screen, then i can't anymore
07:34:48 <__ln__> because your $DISPLAY is wrong
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07:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: but why would screen mess with my $DISPLAY?
07:38:38 <peter1138> existing or new screen session?
07:38:55 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i tested both
07:41:56 <peter1138> existing won't work, but new should
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12:57:32 <ashledombos> I just wonder, would it be possible to upgrade mediawiki to a newer version?
12:58:47 <ashledombos> not necessarily the last one, but there is some intersting stuff such as better organization of special pages
13:01:10 <planetmaker> An upgrade is always a hassle. But maybe that can be done soon-ish when we get a better server
13:02:52 <planetmaker> anything you miss in particular, ashledombos ?
13:09:24 <ashledombos> planetmaker: not really a single thing, but many little things :p but no problem, this version is good enough anyway
13:10:05 <planetmaker> the better server might be nearer to us than one might assume ;-)
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14:16:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "44 of 58 french nuclear power stations may need to shut down due to dry, hot weather"
14:17:50 <planetmaker> "grundlast-tauglich" :-P
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14:51:41 <Belugas> Dave W ? a God? God...
14:55:29 <planetmaker> Belugas, do you know Terry Pratchet's disc world?
14:55:54 <planetmaker> Then you also know what god can be ;-)
14:58:45 <TWerkhoven> we got em all here
14:59:05 <TWerkhoven> though we can't seem to find thief of time atm
14:59:10 <planetmaker> I got bored after half a dozen novels, it got repetitive. But it's good
15:01:53 <Rubidium> Belugas: he's probably dyslexic
15:15:08 <Belugas> planetmaker : no, does not ring a bell. Rubidium: I'd say delirious ;)
15:16:32 <Rubidium> Belugas: dog: a) a worthless or contemptible person, b) fellow, chap <a lazy dog> <you lucky dog>
15:23:10 <peter1138> discworld's less fantasy these days
15:44:22 <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> "44 of 58 french nuclear power stations may need to shut down due to dry, hot weather" <-- yes, water level in rivers is too low
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17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22545 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt dutch.txt):
17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: dutch - 37 changes by Parody
17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 11 changes by Tucalipe
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18:24:07 <Terkhen> programando cosas muy confusas :P
18:24:51 <andythenorth> spanish is quite efficient
18:24:59 <andythenorth> it uses fewer words like 'is'
18:25:22 <andythenorth> english-as-commonly-used is less efficient
18:25:34 <Terkhen> but words are usually a lot longer, in english you can say more writing less
18:26:32 * Terkhen is close to a working implementation of town persistent storage
18:26:43 <Terkhen> where working != nice :P
18:26:51 <andythenorth> that would be shiny
18:27:00 <andythenorth> although with that + YACD my head might explode
18:27:18 <Terkhen> after this is tested, made nice and done, I plan to review the proposed variables and callbacks for town control
18:27:43 <planetmaker> holla andythenorth
18:28:21 <andythenorth> Terkhen: if you're pursuing town growth, it might be worth some discussion about how a (theoretical) goals framework might work
18:28:24 <Terkhen> after the proposed specs are refined, I guess that posting them at the forums for wider reviews should be the next step
18:28:26 <andythenorth> I'm not suggesting to implement it
18:28:51 <Terkhen> yes, that's a good point
18:29:00 <Terkhen> I'm not going to implement it either, but it should be taken into account
18:29:20 <andythenorth> I wonder if there's a left-turn approach to a goals framework
18:29:29 <Hirundo> Is there any spec/code somewhere on the internets yet?
18:29:32 <Terkhen> probably the owners of all those CITY CHALLENGE servers have something to say regarding to the specs
18:29:32 <andythenorth> like making it external to the game or such
18:30:31 <Terkhen> I'm implementing option 1 for persistent storage, but for now an item has write access only to the town storage associated to its grfid
18:30:38 <Terkhen> and has read access to all
18:31:22 <Terkhen> we are not sure that giving write access to anything is a great idea, and that could be easily added later if deemed necessary
18:31:40 <Terkhen> s/anything/everything/
18:32:48 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I couldn't do a full electricity implementation without write access for all
18:32:55 <andythenorth> but I could do a near-enough version
18:33:37 <Terkhen> do you need multiple newgrfs for it?
18:33:41 <andythenorth> probably worth explaining how electricity would work in my idea
18:34:17 <andythenorth> any power-plant of any kind in industry newgrf(s) would write to a town storage register (probably once a month, or when production cb runs)
18:34:59 <andythenorth> in my simple model it only has to write 01h if there was electricity, as I don't care about the amounts (and that will lead to tiresome arguments with electromagnetic equations being produced left, right and centre)
18:35:26 <andythenorth> the register is zeroed once a month
18:35:27 <andythenorth> then any industry or house that wants electricity looks in the town register to see if there is electricity
18:35:54 <andythenorth> (1) how to zero the register
18:36:18 <andythenorth> (2) interaction between say industry grf and town grf
18:36:30 <Rubidium> store the date instead of 1?
18:36:39 <andythenorth> and then measure offsets? would work
18:36:51 <andythenorth> 'electricity last produce' xx-yy-zz
18:37:19 <andythenorth> Terkhen: their would be a specific grf for town growth?
18:37:38 <Rubidium> int diff = cur_date - prod_date;
18:37:42 <Terkhen> hmm... I don't see the need to support power plants from different newgrfs at once (although many industry newgrfs allowing to enable that common behaviour would be nice), but the industry-house communication for this is a valid case
18:37:45 <Rubidium> if (diff < 0) cheater!
18:37:52 <Rubidium> if (diff < 30) good boy!
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18:38:06 <Rubidium> else want power, damnit!
18:38:31 <andythenorth> Terkhen: if there is a town grf && that has it's own registers && a monthly cb, there is no problem
18:38:39 <Terkhen> andythenorth: another option that we discussed was to set some GrfIDs as common storage, for example 0xFFXXXXXX
18:39:06 <andythenorth> yes that would work too
18:39:19 <andythenorth> I think there are probably multiple valid routes
18:39:28 <andythenorth> I dislike multiple things writing to same registers
18:39:32 <andythenorth> it's recipe for disaster
18:39:48 <andythenorth> I have caused bugs in my own grf with persistent storage collisions
18:39:57 <Rubidium> imo this would be a prime example of some shared usage of a register. However, I would say that these shared bits *MUST* be documented in the nfo specs
18:39:59 <andythenorth> having to account for other authors is Bad Idea
18:40:17 <andythenorth> are labels out of the question?
18:40:32 <andythenorth> the other way to think about this: is electricity even a good idea?
18:42:47 <frosch123> it does not matter whether it is a good idea or not. if it is possible someone will do it :p
18:43:25 <andythenorth> not if it's not possible :P
18:43:38 <Hirundo> frosch123: that's rule 34....
18:43:46 <andythenorth> we could add un-features :P
18:43:53 <frosch123> but yes, if there are common variable writeable by many, it should not end up like cargo classes :p
18:44:43 <frosch123> thus it is a good idea to first let some grfs try some stuff in their private area
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18:46:45 * andythenorth tries to create a case for vehicles to write to town storage
18:47:16 <andythenorth> real transport companies name ships and trains after cities sometimes
18:47:38 * andythenorth wonders how town storage supports that
18:48:10 <frosch123> i guess it is a good idea to not make towns accessible to vehicles :p
18:49:05 <andythenorth> if the town has no electricity, all the trams could stop :P
18:49:16 <andythenorth> maybe railtypes need access to town storage too
18:49:24 <andythenorth> with a cb to set powered / unpowered
18:50:18 <andythenorth> if towns could store some value for 'maintenance'
18:50:20 <frosch123> here railroad are supplied completely independent from houses/industries
18:50:30 <andythenorth> we could use cb36 to make vehicles slower and less reliable :P
18:50:46 <andythenorth> a maintenance truck could 'store' to a town
18:50:57 <frosch123> the same in sweden and switzerland
18:51:13 <andythenorth> street sweepers!
18:51:16 <frosch123> do not know about the supply of other railroads
18:51:32 <andythenorth> never give someone like me a new feature to fool with :P
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18:52:30 <Terkhen> IIRC vehicles already have a PARENT
18:52:36 * andythenorth thinks vehicles should be able to write to their town :D
18:52:45 <Terkhen> sorry, no parent.parent() :)
18:52:46 <andythenorth> which is probably very horrible
18:52:56 <andythenorth> they'd have to go via their current tile?
18:53:04 <andythenorth> probably on every tick?
18:53:23 <Terkhen> huh, that would slow the game to a crawl
18:54:34 <andythenorth> what could objects do with towns?
18:57:52 <andythenorth> do objects have classes or such?
18:58:35 <Rubidium> like station classes
18:59:53 <Rubidium> heh... that's what I wanted to say :(
18:59:57 <andythenorth> so classes are organising features, they say nothing about the object
19:00:02 <Lakie> Bt the basics of required bits are accurate enough
19:00:22 <Lakie> The method of grouping.
19:00:39 <Lakie> And views would be the equivlent of sub grouping to some
19:00:41 <andythenorth> so a town couldn't use those to express a preference between say....cellphone towers and ski-slopes
19:01:53 <andythenorth> if a town had lighthouses, ships could sink less
19:02:02 <andythenorth> this presupposes several unlikely things
19:02:02 <Lakie> You could specify a specific class tag, but it would get messy.
19:04:32 <andythenorth> a town could have prevailing weather :P
19:04:51 * andythenorth may not be very helpful
19:12:31 <Terkhen> andythenorth: you are helpful, I'm getting a good idea of how town storage could be abused :P
19:12:56 <andythenorth> I haven't considered what stations can do yet
19:13:27 <andythenorth> here's an easy one. cb39
19:13:43 <andythenorth> construct a partial supply-and-demand economy
19:13:57 <andythenorth> the demand side would be modelled by spot-rate calculations for cargo payment
19:14:00 <andythenorth> on a per-town basis
19:14:08 <andythenorth> the supply side wouldn't be modelled
19:14:15 <andythenorth> this would play very badly with yacd :P
19:14:51 <andythenorth> I suspect if I explore the 60+ vars, the demand side is close to possible already
19:16:34 <andythenorth> I have run out of other interesting things to do
19:16:50 <andythenorth> varying graphics by town might interest some, but is partly possible already
19:16:57 <andythenorth> town control would allow it to be more controllable
19:22:09 <Terkhen> first house could check a certain variable and if not set, set it to something random that would determine buildings for that town?
19:24:45 <andythenorth> there needs to be some form of master control for a town though
19:24:50 <andythenorth> not sure how that runs
19:25:13 <andythenorth> runs every so many ticks
19:25:19 <andythenorth> similar to industry production cb
19:26:26 <Terkhen> master control of what type? town growth?
19:27:17 <andythenorth> the town itself is likely to need storage, which other grfs will not be writing to
19:29:09 <Terkhen> town callbacks should probably be able to access the persistent storage of the grfid that defines them
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19:30:40 * andythenorth has an idea for permitting read-write between grfs
19:31:10 <andythenorth> assume a public storage location, maybe the town
19:31:15 <andythenorth> which all grfs can read-write to
19:31:27 <andythenorth> with n locations
19:31:46 <andythenorth> the convention for what to put in those locations is governed by a schema
19:31:51 <andythenorth> (agreed between grf authors)
19:32:13 <andythenorth> grfs can implement multiple schemas
19:32:18 <andythenorth> but only one can be active at once
19:32:39 <andythenorth> the determination of which schema is used is basically a vote system between the active newgrfs
19:32:45 <andythenorth> most common schema wins
19:33:15 <andythenorth> so schema A might say delivered food is in 01h, electricity supply is in 0Ah etc
19:33:48 <andythenorth> schema B might say electricity is in 01h and number of ham sandwiches delivered is in 1Ah
19:34:06 <andythenorth> schemas have unique ID (dword)
19:34:18 <andythenorth> better or worse than a label system
19:35:36 <andythenorth> incidentally cargo labels are fine and good and work well. It's only cargo classes that are flawed
19:35:57 <andythenorth> and those only by some poor implementation choices, the design principle is ok
19:41:22 <Terkhen> andythenorth: that would be the next step once that the feature is tested: allowing common write access between newgrfs
19:41:56 <Terkhen> common scheme decided between different authors might cause problems of compatibility with sets outside the group
19:42:25 <andythenorth> but no scheme at all causes madness....
19:42:44 <andythenorth> sets that can't subscribe to the prevailing schema in this game can't write
19:42:49 <andythenorth> and possibly get disabled :P
19:43:26 <Terkhen> but for example, should FIRS stop working with house sets that don't follow its common scheme?
19:43:45 <andythenorth> depends who's winning the scheme war in this game
19:44:01 <andythenorth> if there is a town control grf, FIRS, and a house set
19:44:05 <Terkhen> IMO it should be optional
19:44:11 <andythenorth> if town control grf + FIRS agree on schema, the house set loses
19:44:14 <Terkhen> if the newgrfs are not present, the feature is disabled
19:45:01 <Terkhen> I think that the industry sets should not control town control
19:45:09 <Terkhen> a town control NewGRF should implement a given scheme
19:45:26 <Terkhen> the town control author makes the set compatible with certain industry sets
19:45:36 <Terkhen> for example, if I create a "all towns require food for growth" scheme
19:45:53 <Terkhen> I could detect FIRS, or if OpenGFX+ Industries has its food chain enabled
19:46:59 <andythenorth> how does the industry newgrf know where to write to?
19:47:12 <Terkhen> good question, I was forgetting that :P
19:47:21 <andythenorth> storage location could be abstracted and treated as the internal business of the town newgrf
19:47:33 <andythenorth> there could be a get/set cb
19:47:42 <andythenorth> using labels or such
19:50:56 <Terkhen> why? town grf would access with its own grfid
19:51:11 <Terkhen> also, what to do if multiple newgrfs try to use the same town callbacks is not defined
19:51:26 <Terkhen> there are some pointers in the specs but I have to read them in more depth
19:55:57 <frosch123> if possible their effects shall add up
19:56:18 <frosch123> e.g. if there would be some general monthly callback, everyone shall be called
19:56:33 <Terkhen> for stuff like town growth that makes sense
19:56:59 <Terkhen> but what about town radius? I still don't know how exactly it works, but it does not sound like something that can add up
19:57:28 <frosch123> yeah, for that one it makes not much sense
19:57:45 <frosch123> though a grf could say, i do not want to change the defaults for this town, ask some other
19:58:03 <Terkhen> and then the next newgrf kicks in?
19:58:10 <Terkhen> that behaviour makes sense
19:58:26 <Terkhen> I don't think that mixing town controls newgrfs should be recommended anyways :P
19:59:31 <frosch123> addition text could be useful for completely town-unrelated stuff
20:00:12 <frosch123> anyway, iirc other "generic callbacks" are also supposed to be called across multiple grfs
20:01:14 <frosch123> Terkhen: a industry grf displaying: this town is too small for a bank, or this town is likely to spawn coal mines, or whatever
20:01:52 * Terkhen checks those generic callbacks
20:02:33 <frosch123> not sure whether that mechanism is implemented in ottd though
20:02:37 <andythenorth> there should be no equivalent of pool for town newgrfs
20:02:39 <andythenorth> one and only one
20:02:54 <andythenorth> anything else is asking for troubles
20:03:19 <andythenorth> users *will* add multiple if they're not prevented from doing so
20:04:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: you could archieve that by addinng callback flags for critical callbacks, and only allow one grf to enable them
20:04:26 <frosch123> but you cannot say that in general
20:04:35 <andythenorth> would you scan and disable town grfs if multiple were enabled?
20:04:55 <Terkhen> I guess that "Ambient sound effects" is a good example of generic callback, and it makes sense to chain it through different newgrfs
20:04:59 <frosch123> e.g. take the "display cargo delivery in town gui"-callback. that is useful for town growth, but might as well be interesting for industry production changes
20:05:13 <frosch123> Terkhen: yeah, but not implemented in ottd :p
20:05:31 <Terkhen> then I'll delete my note to check how it is implemented :P
20:05:34 <frosch123> afaik we only have the AI newstation selection
20:06:33 <Terkhen> additional text should definitely be chained
20:06:47 <frosch123> GetGenericCallbackResult seems to have some iterator
20:06:47 <Terkhen> decide town growth... probably, specially if it is a signed value
20:07:26 <Terkhen> cargo requirements could make things really complicated if chained
20:33:24 <Zuu> A thunderstorm just arrived and I was shooting as crazy with my camera to maybe get a lightning on picture. However, the best lightning came just seconds after I ended a long series of shots :-(
20:35:35 <Zuu> But I guess it is really hard to get a shot at the right moment and I don't know exactly which lightning conditions to set up the camera for.
20:37:53 <Zuu> Hmm, but maybe one should go for a really small shutter and low ISO so that the shutting time can be long to increase the chances of getting something.
20:38:59 <planetmaker> several seconds exposure can help
20:39:13 <Ammler> or use a camera which is faster as light
20:39:16 <planetmaker> but still, it's a lot of luck
20:39:30 <Zuu> yea as you can't react and push the button when you see it.
20:39:48 <Rubidium> superhivision camera ;)
20:40:03 <planetmaker> Zuu: well. You just need to take images constantly ;-)
20:40:31 <planetmaker> 20s exposure, 3s dead time, 20s exposure,... ;-)
20:40:34 <Rubidium> = 33 megapixel camera @ 120 Hz
20:40:46 <planetmaker> and the best lightening of course is in the dead time or wrong direction
20:42:39 <planetmaker> anyway... I'll hope for a thunderstorm. It just pretended to come...
20:42:49 <planetmaker> but good night for now :-)
20:43:53 <Terkhen> good night planetmaker
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21:07:12 <bodis> which train is better for 7 13 cargo carts, 2400 HP or 4000 HP?
21:07:36 <bodis> well 7 lengh station :)
21:12:40 <bodis> so how about these trains?
21:12:49 <bodis> is speed or horse power better?
21:13:57 <Terkhen> if the train does not get enough speed, add another engine or change to a model with better power
21:14:41 <bodis> ohh you can have 2 engines?
21:15:35 <Terkhen> yes, buy another one and drag it to your existing train
21:15:45 <Terkhen> otherwise it is impossible to make those insanely long trains
21:16:35 <bodis> what do you mean insanely long?
21:17:45 <Ammler> maybe 14 is without mammot setting?
21:18:06 <glx> HP is more important than max speed (especially with wagon speed limit)
21:18:11 <Terkhen> bodis: max lenght with mammoth trains is 64 tiles
21:18:32 <Ammler> Terkhen: are you sure? :-)
21:19:45 <Terkhen> not 100% because I have not tested right now, but I'm quite sure
21:24:08 <Bilge> Is there any reason to choose monorail over electric rail? They seem to support the same trains
21:25:00 <Terkhen> Bilge: that depends on your NewGRF selection
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21:25:37 <Terkhen> for example, with default trains they are quite different
21:30:26 <Ammler> I am quite sure, we made trains longer 100 tiles
21:31:10 <Ammler> you don't have a station for this length, but well, that should be changed anyway :-)
21:31:39 <Ammler> is station spread really a technical limit?
21:32:28 <Terkhen> Ammler: try with 1.1.1, trains are limited to 64 tiles via setting, I don't know what was the situation before and how are those extra long trains handled now
21:32:56 <Ammler> Terkhen: any reason for that low limit?
21:33:09 <Terkhen> there was a bug report associated to it IIRC
21:33:15 <Terkhen> sorry, my memory sucks :)
21:35:28 <Ammler> well, it makes sense to limit it to station spread
21:35:44 <Ammler> that limit sucks, though
21:37:30 <Bilge> I still don't get what's different about monorail
21:37:40 <Bilge> Are trains faster on monorail than electric or something?
21:38:00 <Terkhen> Bilge: as I said, it depends on your NewGRF selection
21:38:58 <Terkhen> for me, without any NewGRFs, monorail trains use different engines than electric and they are faster
21:39:16 <Terkhen> but without knowing what are you using we can only guess
21:43:23 <Ammler> oh, >5 was already mammoth
21:50:56 <Bilge> Can you see chat history in multiplayer?
21:51:03 <Bilge> Or if you miss a message is it gone forever?
21:51:32 <Terkhen> open the console to check it, in my keyboard it is open by pressing º, I don't know which key is used in other layouts
21:58:31 <Bilge> I'm sure I saw a setting somewhere to adjust new industry development... is it somewhere? I can't find it :(
21:58:44 <Bilge> This scenario hasn't got any industries
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22:06:37 <Bilge> Is there a setting to control the frequency of automatic new industry development?
22:07:40 <Terkhen> Bilge: number of industries, but I don't know if you can change it in a running game or not
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22:23:52 <Bilge> Doesn't matter anyway this mod is bugged to hell, none of the new industries actually ever finish building
22:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the easiest way to test connection speed (LAN)?
22:26:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, without any other influence factors like hd speed
22:28:09 <joho> write a program that generates a lot of data in memory and sends it
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22:28:42 <Vikthor> you could try fetching around files from/to ramdisk
22:28:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure that "write a program" is not "easy"
22:34:15 <joho> depends on your programming knowledge!
22:36:41 <Core_UK> depends on the program :P
22:45:09 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting, i switched cables, but didn't lose the connection
22:46:52 <joho> irc connections doesnt reset until it detects a ping loss
22:46:57 <joho> so if you're quick it just lets it pass
22:47:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant _any_ connection, ssh and the like, or the ppp connection
22:48:00 <joho> quicker than your own shadow
22:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and i had to go through the wohle house, must have taken several tens of seconds
22:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause> according to the log, 40 seconds
22:51:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but there must be something wrong with one of the cables, with one i got 500kB/s, with the other i get 11MB/s
22:51:58 <joho> definitly sounds like its broken
22:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a brand new stretch of cables, we installed them two days ago
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continue to next day ⏵
