IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-04
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04:46:19 <Terkhen> good morning
04:49:16 <Rubidium> moin Terkhen
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05:41:26 <planetmaker> moin
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06:20:37 <pikka> ew
06:20:56 <Terkhen> hi pikka
06:21:08 <pikka> hello
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06:21:29 <pikka> hello andy
06:22:18 <andythenorth> hello mr bird
06:22:24 <andythenorth> long time no sea
06:22:24 <pikka> McDonald's is always a bad idea :l
06:22:35 <andythenorth> pikka: mcdonald's always is
06:22:41 <andythenorth> miss millie's less so
06:22:47 <pikka> fishhhh
06:22:53 <andythenorth> and chips
06:23:05 <pikka> I don't even know what miss millies is
06:23:41 <andythenorth> this is what the internet was made for
06:23:42 <andythenorth>'s_Fried_Chicken
06:24:00 <pikka> all I know is I'm in the depths of the qsbs eating McDonald's
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06:24:23 <pikka> and it is revolting
06:24:52 <andythenorth> you're inside a qualified small business stock? :o
06:25:00 <Terkhen> that looks like a KFC, except that it's not from Kentucky :P
06:25:32 <pikka> no, I'm inside the 3rd ghit
06:25:50 <andythenorth> pikka: may we discuss newgrfs?
06:26:04 <pikka> certainment
06:26:40 <andythenorth> how goes ukrs 2 addons?
06:27:02 <pikka> I was looking at them just the other day
06:27:20 <pikka> I think that my next.priority
06:27:34 <pikka> with additional punctuation
06:27:51 <andythenorth> that would be nice.nice
06:28:15 <pikka> yas
06:28:27 <andythenorth> I _might_ start a truck set soon
06:28:34 <andythenorth> may I borrow HOVS graphics to get it started?
06:28:36 <pikka> uhoh
06:28:43 <pikka> sure
06:28:56 <pikka> although give is largely original ttd
06:29:02 <pikka> hovs
06:29:02 <andythenorth> ok
06:29:48 <andythenorth> I think RVs should be a bit smaller than default
06:30:06 <pikka> yes
06:30:19 <pikka> especially compared to ukrs2
06:31:32 <andythenorth> should RV capacity be bigger or smaller than RL, for gameplay purposes?
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06:32:46 <planetmaker> hey ho. pikka something I thought the other day, as an idea:
06:32:58 <pikka> for gameplay porpoises I'd stick with typical = 30, as with trains
06:33:08 <planetmaker> your trainsets - for me - start to reach the borderline of 'too many vehicles'
06:33:49 <planetmaker> what about a parameter "all" and "minimal subset" where the latter would enable one vehicle per time for each "task" (like heavy fright or express, possibly later also MU)
06:34:15 <pikka> possibly, planetmaker
06:34:38 <pikka> although I think ukrs2 is already reasonably streamlined
06:34:57 <planetmaker> but maybe that's just me as I always play with 'never expire'. I didn't quite test it without that setting. I play so slowly that it's boring without and I'd not get to see 90% of vehicles when I have vehicles expire
06:35:21 <pikka> nars is pretty overloaded with samey diesel but don't blame me for that :p
06:35:28 <planetmaker> :-P
06:36:56 <planetmaker> note that I don't say "there are too many". But I have the feeling there'll be, if more is added :-)
06:36:58 <pikka> I have had plans for very small (ie 6-10 locos) sets, for multiplayer featuring multiple balanced sets
06:37:19 <pikka> but that's not come to anything yet
06:37:27 <planetmaker> sounds like a idea worth persuing or at least testing how it fares
06:38:21 <pikka> what would be nice for that, hint hint, is a callback for populating the purchase list
06:38:45 <pikka> so that certain players could be limited to certain sets
06:38:45 <andythenorth> action 7, climate setting :P
06:39:01 <pikka> callback Andy :p
06:39:24 <pikka> I should make a wishlist thread like yours :p
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06:39:46 <andythenorth> just add to it :P
06:39:48 <planetmaker> :-)
06:39:59 <andythenorth> it is (slowly) effective
06:40:12 <andythenorth> or I realise an idea is stupid :P
06:40:21 <andythenorth> like 'fords'
06:41:16 <pikka> :)
06:41:22 <planetmaker> anyway, I'm off for today, Enjoy it :-)
06:41:26 <pikka> roadtypes!
06:41:33 <pikka> Gnight planet
06:42:20 * pikka waiting for a bus
06:43:15 <andythenorth> pikka: did you try a game with YACD?
06:43:41 <pikka> not yet, it sounds very promising though
06:43:57 <andythenorth> needs more small things
06:44:20 <andythenorth> i.e small engines
06:44:50 <pikka> did you see the norseman? :p
06:44:58 <pikka> needs newairports though
06:45:47 <andythenorth> everything seems to need newairports
06:45:48 <andythenorth> :P
06:45:58 <andythenorth> newairports needs newairports
06:46:10 <pikka> yep
06:46:42 <pikka> newairports will really make things happen with av8 :)
06:50:35 <peter1138> peeeka :D
06:51:26 <andythenorth> pita
06:51:41 <pikka> harro
06:57:40 <pikka> nearly time for me to drive out of the city and back four and a half times
06:57:57 <pikka> oh
06:58:10 <pikka> only 3 and a half :D
06:59:18 <pikka> talk to you gentlemen later :)
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07:03:01 * andythenorth wonders what pikka is up to
07:03:07 <andythenorth> back and forth, back and forth on a bus?
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07:22:24 <andythenorth> Rubidium: any improve bananas should still use mySQL?
07:22:36 <andythenorth> you don't want Yet Another Database Technology to support on the server?
07:28:43 <peter1138> mysql smells :(
07:29:10 * andythenorth is happier with an object database
07:29:16 <peter1138> a what?
07:29:22 <andythenorth> that's what most people say :P
07:29:55 <andythenorth>
07:30:03 <andythenorth> for some things it's just easier
07:30:25 <andythenorth> instead of SELECT foo FROM bar etc etc
07:30:44 <andythenorth> you just do print
07:31:23 <andythenorth> for i in bar: print i
07:31:24 <andythenorth> etc
07:31:28 <andythenorth> for some cases it's very good
07:31:33 <andythenorth> for others not
07:31:35 <peter1138> oh
07:31:51 <peter1138> well you can do that with an abstraction layer anyway
07:32:02 <andythenorth> yes
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07:32:22 <andythenorth> and you can also serialise objects and put them in a relational db if you need performance
07:32:40 <peter1138> serialise objects is not good for querying
07:32:44 <peter1138> +d
07:32:46 <andythenorth> nope
07:33:08 <andythenorth> but it can be good where you need to cluster to gain performance
07:33:21 <Rubidium> andythenorth: how would you query for a particular subset of data then?
07:33:31 <andythenorth> in an object database?
07:33:35 <Rubidium> yes
07:33:47 <andythenorth> for all objects of type bar, look at value for foo
07:33:49 <andythenorth> it can suck
07:33:57 <andythenorth> depends on scale + implementation
07:34:17 <Rubidium> so it sucks for the content server, master server and updater
07:34:23 <andythenorth> probably
07:34:46 <Rubidium> oh, and it's python only?
07:35:27 <Rubidium> so you'd have to write a number of daemons in python as well
07:35:32 <andythenorth> that particular db is yes
07:35:50 <andythenorth> ruled out?
07:35:59 <Rubidium> and we'd still be running mysql for the bug tracker and wiki
07:36:25 <andythenorth> yeah I figured this wouldn't be the route to go
07:36:35 <andythenorth> not a problem, just means I have to lean more stuff
07:37:07 <andythenorth> Rubidium: what version of mysql is being used currently?
07:38:58 <Rubidium> 5.0-ish
07:40:24 <Rubidium> will become 5.1.49 in the future though
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07:59:12 <fjb> Moin
08:01:15 <Terkhen> hi fjb
08:01:32 <fjb> Moin Terkhen
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09:00:46 <andythenorth> how do I tell hg to remove untracked files from a repo?
09:00:53 <andythenorth> I am googling, but new google is broken :
09:00:54 <andythenorth> :P
09:01:24 <Terkhen> andythenorth: enable the purge extension, then "hg purge"
09:01:33 <Terkhen> hg purge --all removes even ignored files
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09:03:25 <andythenorth> hmm
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09:03:34 <andythenorth> excitingly, that has purged everything :P
09:03:39 <andythenorth> including tracked files
09:03:52 <andythenorth> maybe I forgot to commit
09:03:58 <andythenorth> nvm
09:04:04 * andythenorth starts again from scratch
09:05:04 <Terkhen> that's quite strange, I use purge all the time with added but not commited files and they never were deleted
09:05:16 <Terkhen> I have lost files that I forgot to add twice, though
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09:16:25 <andythenorth> I didn't commit - that was the issue :P
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09:23:18 <Wolf01> hello
09:23:37 <Alberth> hi
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09:58:49 <Zuu> Anyone on Linux or Windows that would like to help me testing a new release of Junctioneer? Mostly I would be happy to know that the download packages work on computers without all development environments.
10:02:00 <Zuu> (Junctioneer is a completely separete project to OpenTTD. It's a traffic intersection simulator)
10:08:02 * andythenorth wonders at best way to share a hg repo that is local to my machine currently
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10:13:21 <Alberth> as in shared concurrent access, or just give a copy?
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10:24:21 <Alberth> in the latter case, just archive the directory
10:25:14 <Alberth> you can also use hg serve
10:26:07 <andythenorth> as in just give a copy to one of you guys to test
10:27:53 <Alberth> you can even remove the checked-out copy of the files, not sure how though, perhaps a clone would work
10:31:36 <andythenorth> would anyone mind testing a buildout of pyramid for me?
10:31:43 <andythenorth> my plan is to try migrating bananas to it
10:31:50 <andythenorth> but I need to know the buildout is viable first
10:33:56 <andythenorth>
10:34:06 <andythenorth> there's a readme in the archive
10:34:16 <andythenorth> if it's not self-explanatory, that is problem #1 :P
10:34:26 <andythenorth> only dependency is python 2.6 or more
10:35:07 <Terkhen> andythenorth: what do I need to do?
10:35:16 <Terkhen> follow the readme or not? :P
10:36:45 <andythenorth> follow the readme
10:48:58 <andythenorth> Terkhen: did you have chance to try that? ^
10:49:03 <Terkhen> andythenorth:
10:49:10 <Terkhen> sorry, I got distracted :)
10:49:29 <andythenorth> interesting
10:49:32 <andythenorth> what OS?
10:50:21 <Terkhen> linux 64 bits
10:50:32 <Terkhen> python 2.7.1
10:50:49 <andythenorth> do you have any other python versions?
10:50:57 <andythenorth> e.g. 2.6
10:51:06 <Rubidium> Zuu: new release = 0.2.0? Then the linked libsdl doesn't work for me
10:51:44 <Terkhen> andythenorth: no
10:52:58 <Alberth> bootstrap has no --prefix to specify installdir or so?
10:53:07 <Zuu> Rubidium: Yes the 0.2.0
10:53:09 <andythenorth> Terkhen: it looks like a permissions problem
10:53:19 <andythenorth> let me read about virtualenv
10:54:47 <Terkhen> I did not run it with sudo, but something like prefix would be great
10:55:19 <Rubidium> Zuu: oh... 32 bits binary... that won't work for me
10:55:37 <andythenorth> Terkhen: it would probably work with sudo
10:55:46 <andythenorth> but I don't want to screw with your system
10:55:48 <Zuu> Unfortunately I don't have a 64 bit environment at the moment.
10:56:19 <Zuu> It wouldn't be hard to create, but I fear it is not just to type "make" and it will just work.
10:57:09 <Terkhen> andythenorth: <-- it seems that it works with sudo
10:57:17 <Terkhen> I don't get why it needs sudo, though
10:57:29 <andythenorth> well it's screwing with your system :P
10:57:39 <andythenorth> so I guess it wants permission
10:57:52 <andythenorth> I don't like this route, if I can figure out virtualenv, that's better
10:57:57 <Terkhen> ok
10:58:07 <andythenorth> I don't seem to have or be able to install easily virtualenv though
10:58:10 <Terkhen> don't worry, this system needs a big cleanup anyways :)
10:58:15 <andythenorth> Terkhen: can you try the rest of the steps?
10:58:18 <Terkhen> sure
10:58:46 <andythenorth> the stuff installs shouldn't do much harm to the system, it's basically distribute / setup tools
10:58:54 <andythenorth> the stuff the buildout installs is localised anyway
10:59:32 <Rubidium> no ipv6? :(
11:01:21 <Rubidium> ah well, I guess it has to run via a proxy anyways
11:02:23 <Terkhen> andythenorth:
11:02:34 <Terkhen> should I try to run it?
11:02:34 <andythenorth> worked
11:02:37 <andythenorth> yes please
11:05:56 <Zuu> Rubidium: Sorry for not being clear about the bit-ness, but thank you for highlighting that it is probably time that I look into adding 64bit support as I guess dual 32+64 bit libraries are not as common anymore as 5 years ago.
11:06:53 <Terkhen> andythenorth: Welcome to bananas, an application generated by the Pyramid web application development framework. <--- works
11:06:58 <andythenorth> :)
11:07:08 <andythenorth> so 64bit linux is ok
11:07:12 * andythenorth wonders about windows
11:07:21 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I don't like the sudo requirement
11:07:29 <Alberth> andythenorth: it's python
11:07:42 <andythenorth> yes
11:07:44 * Rubidium didn't need to sudo
11:07:50 <Terkhen> remind me later when I'm on windows, but I guess it will work
11:07:54 <andythenorth> it should do
11:07:55 <Terkhen> I don't like using sudo either
11:08:10 <Alberth> Rubidium: perhaps you had already installed that egg?
11:08:37 <andythenorth> for my next trick, I need to figure out how to build mysql if needed :P
11:08:42 <andythenorth> this might be a headache
11:09:00 <Rubidium> build mysql?
11:09:07 <andythenorth> if you don't have it
11:09:16 <Rubidium> oh... don't
11:09:20 <Rubidium> just have it as requirement
11:09:29 <andythenorth> that's lame :)
11:09:33 <Rubidium> like you're not building python either...
11:09:35 <andythenorth> there's a buildout recipe for mysql
11:10:43 <Alberth> linuces no doubt have a rpm or other package for it
11:11:37 <Rubidium> oh, don't forget a buildout of gcc
11:11:43 <Rubidium> as people might not have it
11:11:48 <Rubidium> but it's required for mysql
11:12:37 <andythenorth> :P
11:14:21 * Rubidium wonders whether there's a C compiler advanced enough to bootstrap binutils and gcc, but written in python
11:15:29 <Alberth> you'd need JPython :D
11:15:50 <Rubidium> sounds like it requires java
11:15:55 <Rubidium> which you'd need to build as well
11:15:56 <Alberth> yep
11:16:23 <andythenorth> is this a subtle way of saying "it's ok to have mysql as requirement" ? :P
11:17:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the wooden-hammer kind of subtle :p
11:17:26 <Terkhen> :D
11:17:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... how long does this usually take?
11:17:39 <Rubidium> no, I'm just wondering how much of a development system you'd need to fetch to go from "a python only environment" to a compiled mysql
11:18:12 <andythenorth> a lot :P
11:18:16 <Alberth> you could write the binutils in python first
11:18:26 <andythenorth> unless the recipe just called your OS package manager :P
11:18:49 <Alberth> not portable to windows :p
11:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: am i understanding this correctly that this "only" needs a c-compiler written in python?
11:19:19 <andythenorth> silly old windows
11:20:19 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: no idea exactly
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11:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not sure what i am to make of this output:
11:21:15 <Rubidium> it needs at least a c compiler written in python, or at least "installable" by python without having to use a c compiler
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11:22:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it shouldn't be too difficult to make one, if you don't care about optimising
11:23:20 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that probably worked
11:23:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you need python, ply, a grammar, and a description of the binary format/machine code
11:23:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: does step 2 work?
11:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: downloading always takes a while
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11:25:17 <andythenorth> yup
11:25:27 <andythenorth> downloaded parts are usefully cached locally though
11:28:08 <andythenorth> brrr
11:28:20 <andythenorth> all pyramid tutorials refer to sqlite3
11:28:28 <andythenorth> I have to figure out how to bind to mysql
11:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and bananas is so big that it blows sqlite?
11:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause> or is sqlite too vulnerable/slow/other?
11:29:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's more that (afaik) mysql is current db
11:30:13 <andythenorth> and asking Rubidium to support more dbs on production server is unfair
11:30:59 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: multiple concurrent modifiers of the same database
11:35:32 <andythenorth> bbl
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12:08:41 * andythenorth takes adventure into world of mysql
12:11:46 <andythenorth> hmm
12:11:59 <andythenorth> django apps can incrementally migrate to pyramid
12:12:06 <andythenorth> if I can understand this, it might be win
12:12:06 <andythenorth>
12:16:27 <andythenorth> the downside is I can't test because there's no easy way to build the django environment :P
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12:20:41 <andythenorth> hmm
12:20:50 <andythenorth> I don't know the password for my local mysql :P
12:20:57 <bodis> hello
12:34:24 <Alberth> hello
12:39:52 <bodis> quick question
12:40:02 <bodis> lets say you build a rail station in a town
12:40:17 <bodis> it only picks up passengers and mail from a part it covers
12:40:35 <bodis> is tehr ea way to get passengers and mail from the rest of the town to this rail station?
12:40:48 <Alberth> start a bus service
12:41:02 <Alberth> and transfer them to the station
12:41:20 <Alberth> read about feeder systems at the wiki
12:41:27 <bodis> so then it will move mail to the rail station and you can then get the same mail through the trains?
12:41:31 <bodis> k
12:41:50 <Alberth> for mail you need trucks, but the principle is the same
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12:42:26 <bodis> thanks reading about the feeder now
12:42:27 <Alberth> your busstops will be overcrowded in no time however
12:42:45 <bodis> how do you deal with that then?
12:43:18 <Alberth> another train station has a better chance, but even that may not be enough
12:43:49 <Alberth> I am not exactly sure whether it can be dealt with and/or how. I normally don't care to transport everybody
12:44:04 <bodis> yep
12:44:07 <bodis> thanks
12:44:11 <Alberth> I like cargoes much more :)
12:44:22 <bodis> yeah same here :)
12:44:33 <bodis> but that can be done the same way as well right?
12:44:45 <Alberth> but there are passengers reduction newgrfs that you can load
12:45:05 <bodis> does it matter that not all passengers are transfered?
12:45:34 <Alberth> industry cargoes are even better in the sense that you less likely want traffic in both directions, which is a problem with standard openttd
12:46:06 <Alberth> not at all, just the station rating of your station counts, which is determined by regular servicing of the station, etc
12:46:26 <Alberth> for all the details, see the game mechanics wiki page on station ratings :)
12:46:30 <bodis> k so it will have no bad effect if the station is full?
12:46:35 <bodis> ok
12:46:57 <bodis> thanks afk
12:46:57 <Alberth> no, on the contrary, your buses/trains will fill very quickly :)
12:47:29 <Alberth> it just looks awkward to have so many passengers in your station
12:47:43 <Alberth> people tend to want to have an empty station :)
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12:49:02 <__ln__>
12:49:34 * andythenorth has found his mysql install :P
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12:54:05 <andythenorth> seems sqlalchemy is recommended a lot with pyramid
12:54:06 <andythenorth>
12:56:06 <andythenorth> although I think I could also ZMySQLDA which is simple-ish and old (stable)
12:59:31 <Alberth> mysql is not generally recommend as being very good afaik :p
13:01:26 <andythenorth> there's no way around that :P
13:02:05 <Alberth> you cannot use postgressql or so ?
13:02:24 <andythenorth> only if we migrate openttd db to that first
13:02:28 <Alberth> (not that it matters much at this stage, probably :) )
13:03:30 <andythenorth> using mysql is a whole world of stuff I have to figure out now :)
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13:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> easy migration between different databases would be a good test for a framework
13:07:48 <andythenorth> sqlalchemy should support that
13:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> btw: this was the output of step 2:
13:08:24 <Alberth> #python recommends oursql, one of the regulars there has written it
13:08:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: did you try step 3?
13:08:47 <Eddi|zuHause> not yet
13:09:35 <Rubidium> Alberth: guess it depends on the usage
13:09:48 <andythenorth>
13:09:51 <Rubidium> and it has certainly gotten more important-ish features over time
13:10:03 * andythenorth can't decide if it's better or worse to use an orms
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13:10:18 <andythenorth>
13:10:39 <Alberth> I would expect that usage patterns make a huge difference indeed
13:10:40 <andythenorth> it makes for cleaner easier code, but is an extra concept to work with
13:10:53 <andythenorth> my last comment wrt to orm
13:11:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: just pick something and use it, no use trying to figure out the best without having knowledge to decide on imho
13:11:51 <andythenorth> indeed
13:12:06 <andythenorth> I'm going to do a pyramid tutorial with sqlite3 first
13:12:12 <andythenorth> otherwise I am *way* out of my depth
13:12:18 <andythenorth> bear in mind I normally just write the gui
13:12:22 <Alberth> at worst you have to implement it again, which is good for the program :p
13:12:53 <andythenorth> I could rewrite bananas in zope in about a day with better error handling, but you'd all hate it
13:13:03 <andythenorth> and pointy sticks would be waved at me
13:13:14 <andythenorth> and it would suck
13:13:53 <Alberth> not a good direction to take :p
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13:15:35 <andythenorth> but it would work :D
13:17:16 <Alberth> can it work and suck at the same time? :o
13:17:58 <Rubidium> am I understanding zope correctly that it can automagically export some data to a relational database?
13:18:49 <andythenorth> it has adapters to various relational databases
13:18:56 <andythenorth> but it's really *not* the way to go
13:19:11 <andythenorth> been there, done that, paid down the technical debt :P
13:19:30 * andythenorth has built more than one hybrid mysql+zodb app
13:19:38 <andythenorth> headache
13:19:59 <Ammler> for a start, I would extend current bananas, you can still work on a rewrite
13:20:27 <andythenorth> I think we've established that's near impossible
13:20:35 <andythenorth> as there is no dev environment
13:21:04 <andythenorth> I could create a repeatable buildout for whatever django version + deps are needed
13:21:10 <andythenorth> but that's a headache too
13:21:20 <andythenorth> especially if django is in any way patched or such
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13:22:56 <Rubidium> Ammler: please try to set up a bananas first
13:23:23 <Ammler> I can't believe a pro like TrueBrain made such a bad job there ;-)
13:23:59 <Ammler> did he never thought about that it might need updates?
13:24:24 <Alberth> more likely, django was not up to the job
13:24:32 <andythenorth> maybe
13:24:49 <andythenorth> the view on the interwebs seems to be that django is very capable, possibly a bit much so
13:25:03 <Alberth> you always find out such things afterwards :p
13:25:13 <TrueBrain> Ammler: no, I like writing software for open source projects that can't get any updates :D Lol :p
13:25:18 <andythenorth> bananas in principle looks like a very simple app, with a lot of condition-catching
13:25:26 * andythenorth may regret that statement
13:25:27 <Ammler> TrueBrain: exactly what I meant :-P
13:25:29 <Rubidium> Ammler: as far as I can see the debugging kinda went away when LDAP was added
13:25:37 <TrueBrain> for a long time it was no problem running a dev version. Somewhere along the line we did too much patching, and I dunno .. I am afraid touching it :D
13:25:54 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it is exactly that :D Only the list of conditions is HUGE :p
13:26:06 <andythenorth> seems to be 80% of the actual code
13:26:13 <TrueBrain> and django is a perfect framework, for small projects, or normal projects
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13:26:21 <andythenorth> in some files, there are more imports than code :P
13:26:50 <TrueBrain> we started with django in the time translations came up
13:27:00 <TrueBrain> they admitted the initial implementation was bad :D
13:27:04 <Ammler> and how can you be sure, if you start a rewrite, the same issue doesn't happen again?
13:27:17 <TrueBrain> Ammler: how can you ever be sure of anything?
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13:27:53 <Ammler> maybe you could also revive the Giraffe :-)
13:28:04 <TrueBrain> lets put it differently, what are the choices: no real development setup, so patches will be guessing that need to be applied mostly in production
13:28:05 <Ammler> or how that project was called
13:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> only normal people can do normal projects... :p
13:28:43 <Rubidium> Ammler: attempt 1: implementing without much knowledge, attempt 2: implementing with *much* more knowledge
13:28:47 <Eddi|zuHause> there can't possibly be a normal project around the internet :p
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13:29:05 <andythenorth> Rubidium: if I do attempt 2, I think that's mapping us back to attempt 1 :P
13:29:22 <TrueBrain> so first a design document of any kind would be needed
13:29:24 <Rubidium> Ammler: e.g. path signals
13:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: attempt 3 should go into production.
13:29:31 <TrueBrain> so you understand and know what should be done
13:29:43 <Ammler> Rubidium: :-D we don't talk about that now
13:29:51 <andythenorth> I think first I learn how to use pyramid with relational db
13:29:54 <andythenorth> and routing
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13:30:00 <andythenorth> then we can talk design :P
13:30:06 <Rubidium> but ask any of the developers who have implemented something for the second or third time before it's right
13:30:36 <Ammler> TrueBrain: bitbucket used an additonal lib on top of django, maybe something like that could be useful?
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13:30:43 <andythenorth> compare HEQS code to FISH
13:30:54 <TrueBrain> Ammler: moar patchus!!
13:31:10 <Ammler>
13:31:13 <TrueBrain> moar deps == moar fail :)
13:31:25 <TrueBrain> django is not right for OpenTTD
13:34:23 <TrueBrain> so yeah, andythenorth, take your time, read into what it is about, make a post where you ask for suggestion, collect it, make a nice suggestion as initial version, and go for it :)
13:34:46 <andythenorth> ;)
13:34:56 <andythenorth> I might need a collaborator wrt database design
13:34:58 <andythenorth> etc
13:35:05 <andythenorth> as I am proven to suck at that
13:35:06 <Ammler> and when you need server to play around, ping me :-)
13:35:12 <andythenorth> might / will /s
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13:39:01 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22536 /trunk/src/network/core/tcp_admin.h: -Fix [FS#4632]: documentation omission regarding admin protocol
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14:15:15 <andythenorth> woah
14:15:18 <andythenorth> that's spooky
14:15:42 <andythenorth> my pyramid tutorial is saving data to a sqlite3 db and I haven't configured any db connection :P
14:16:48 <Rubidium> sqlite db == file on disk
14:17:15 <andythenorth> hoo
14:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it uses a memory database by default?
14:17:24 <andythenorth> wonder where that is on my filesystem
14:17:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if it was a memory database, it wouldn't survive me killing the process?
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14:17:43 <Ammler> either where your app is or in /tmp
14:18:04 <Ammler> might be a config setting :-)
14:18:20 <andythenorth> I'll just treat it as magic for now :P
14:18:21 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it being a single file that can only be accessed by one application is somewhat difficult when multiple applications need to read and write to it
14:18:31 <andythenorth> yup
14:18:35 <andythenorth> this is just a tutorial :)
14:19:10 <andythenorth> possibly a good way for me to figure out how to swap to mysql
14:19:16 <andythenorth> as the rest of the app is then written
14:19:55 <Rubidium> the question's also how well it works with changing data in the database that's not coming form itself
14:21:09 <Ammler> shouldn't happen
14:21:22 <Ammler> isn't api for such things?
14:22:14 <andythenorth> hmm
14:22:25 <andythenorth> the sqlite3 shell interface sucks :P
14:22:32 <andythenorth> can't figure that out
14:22:40 <Ammler> firefox has extension to browse sqlite
14:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with the sqlite shell?
14:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it accepts sql. and gives you a table.
14:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause> what else do you want?
14:24:36 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22537 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Change [FS#3494]: replace the half small airport structure on the intercontinental airport with some grass
14:27:56 * andythenorth finds the tutorial.db
14:28:02 <andythenorth> less magic :P
14:28:41 <andythenorth> this tutorial is a lot more fun than drawing pixels
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14:34:39 <andythenorth> the next section is 'adding tests'
14:34:44 <andythenorth> which obviously I'll skip :P
14:36:04 <Rubidium> but you'll need loads of tests for the uploaded bananas files
14:37:18 <andythenorth> I know :(
14:37:22 <andythenorth> tests are...dull :P
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14:48:26 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22538 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4619]: possible crash when opening the airport build window for the first time
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14:54:43 <Rubidium> what does ~0.7777 furlong per fortnight on average?
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14:57:05 <andythenorth> the mid-atlantic fault?
14:57:09 <andythenorth> magnetic pole?
14:57:20 <andythenorth> glass?
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14:57:32 <andythenorth> none of the above?
14:57:40 <andythenorth> at least on of those four answers is correct :P
14:57:45 <andythenorth> on / one s
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14:59:12 <andythenorth> what's all this guest nick swapping?
14:59:18 <andythenorth> is oftc doing this?
14:59:55 <Rubidium> andythenorth: usually it's someone using (IIRC) the ghost command
15:00:59 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the latter of the four is definitely correct, but now I wonder whether I should give you the opportunity to try again
15:01:38 <Rubidium> although it'll take a while till the opportunity reaches you
15:02:11 * andythenorth is baffled
15:02:21 <andythenorth> and will learn about security and authentication instead
15:03:53 <Rubidium> am I speaking too much in riddles?
15:04:21 <andythenorth> perhaps
15:06:27 <Rubidium> Opportunity, the little Mars rover, has been going at ~0.7777 furlog per fortnight over the last ~7.5 years
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15:07:20 <andythenorth> ah
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15:07:29 <andythenorth> maybe pikka will include that in his secret
15:20:05 <frosch123> @calc 0.7777 * 1.0058/5/(24*14)
15:20:05 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 0.000465601583333
15:20:36 <frosch123> about 46 cm/hour ?
15:21:01 <Rubidium> yep
15:22:02 <frosch123> that might be the speed of the shadow on a number of sundials
15:25:13 <Alberth> it did not move during the winter, too little power then
15:32:56 * andythenorth wonders what to do next
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15:36:29 <V453000> does anyone have a clue where to get Railway Arch 0.2.0 444EFF04 E9527F3E14BD6C64E3C6C88A98930BE7 ? cant seem to find it anywhere
15:39:27 <Terkhen> andythenorth: do you fancy writing a test newgrf for station var 0x69? :P
15:40:26 <Terkhen> hmm... or maybe some existing TTDPatch newgrf uses it already
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15:44:16 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I'll look what it does
15:44:26 <Terkhen> ok :)
15:44:54 <andythenorth> Terkhen: what's it needed for ?
15:45:02 <andythenorth> I find that var odd :P
15:45:44 <Terkhen> having cargo acceptance stats for the few last months is useful for some variables at
15:46:07 <Terkhen> the variable itself is not very interesting :)
15:46:48 <andythenorth> I wonder if it can be patched into CHIPS for a test
15:47:06 <andythenorth> what would you need to see from it?
15:48:09 <Terkhen> anything happening for each of the four possible return values
15:48:20 <Terkhen> I don't mind what :P
15:48:32 <andythenorth> let me see if I can patch against CHIPS then
15:48:34 <andythenorth> not sure
15:48:34 <Terkhen> whatever is easier for you
15:48:36 <Terkhen> ok :)
15:48:41 <andythenorth> I've not written station nfo
15:48:45 <andythenorth> yexo does it all :)
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15:52:42 <frosch123> Terkhen: use the newgrf debug gui
15:53:22 <Terkhen> oh, it shows variables? :O
15:53:24 <Terkhen> ok, thanks :)
15:53:34 <frosch123> well, and, i am very sure there is no public released grf which uses it
15:53:46 <frosch123> else it would already be implemented
15:54:11 <frosch123> Terkhen: you can click on the variables to enter 60+x parameters
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15:54:31 <frosch123> though you won't be able to enter var100 values :)
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15:54:32 <Terkhen> that's awesome :)
15:54:56 <frosch123> blame rb :p
15:55:09 <Terkhen> andythenorth: thanks, it seems that I can check it without a test :P
16:02:45 <andythenorth> great
16:02:50 <andythenorth> I was feeding the baby anyway
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16:03:32 <Terkhen> :)
16:04:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> that might be the speed of the shadow on a number of sundials <-- that would be a fairly big one...
16:04:45 <Eddi|zuHause> also, the speed depends on the date
16:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's faster in winter
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16:11:11 <Rubidium> V453000: "Railway arch 0.2 is to be found in the VAST devellopment thread"
16:11:27 <V453000> yeah, I somehow found it when searching for VAST things :D thank you though
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16:44:15 * andythenorth is lost
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17:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hey, that series ended ages ago :p
17:05:49 * andythenorth is lost in pyramid :P
17:05:55 <andythenorth> not on a silly island
17:07:34 <andythenorth> there is a downside to a well documented framework
17:07:57 <Terkhen> too much to read?
17:08:19 <andythenorth> it's quite absorbing
17:08:36 <andythenorth> normally I just write code that doesn't work, until it does work
17:08:40 <andythenorth> or I get bored
17:08:56 <andythenorth> or copy and paste something else and hack at it
17:09:07 <andythenorth> documentation is like cheating
17:15:10 <Alberth> now you must concentrate on the real problem that you want to solve :p
17:19:10 <andythenorth> the real problem is understanding the framework :D
17:19:24 <andythenorth> it's not hard, but I am not a good programmer :P
17:20:05 <andythenorth> Alberth: you like python?
17:20:14 <Alberth> yes
17:20:20 <andythenorth> join me :P
17:20:24 <andythenorth> it's fun
17:20:36 <Alberth> I would like to, but I already have 2.5 projects
17:20:54 <andythenorth> that's 1 less than me :)
17:21:25 <Rubidium> that's not much
17:21:28 <Alberth> so technically I can, but spreading my time over many projects is not very productive
17:21:52 <Alberth> Rubidium: it is if you actually want to make some progress
17:21:57 <andythenorth> he
17:22:02 <Rubidium> oh...
17:22:04 <Alberth> I'd be happy to review code if you like
17:22:14 <Rubidium> but the progress in osie and catcodec is great
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17:22:55 <Alberth> you are speaking in riddles; could you elaborate please?
17:23:11 <andythenorth> Rubidium is the cheshire cat toda
17:23:12 <andythenorth> y
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17:23:39 <Rubidium> you don't know osie? She's lovely... feed her a recent OpenTTD screenshot and she'll tell you the used NewGRFs
17:23:55 <Rubidium> catcodec is the tool to build opensfx
17:24:22 <Alberth> ah, that's you those magic statistics of yesterday were produced :p
17:24:38 <Rubidium> nope
17:24:52 * Alberth was thinking about catcodes of TeX instead
17:25:26 <Alberth> hmm, does osie eat heightmaps?
17:26:07 <andythenorth> is osie on the interwebs?
17:26:09 <Rubidium> if it's png it does
17:26:17 <Rubidium> andythenorth: ofcourse
17:26:20 <Rubidium> download-osie
17:26:24 <Alberth> nice :)
17:26:40 <Rubidium> but if OpenTTD didn't embed the information into the png it won't find any
17:28:49 <Alberth> I did not explicitly enable nor disable it, it uses the standard png writer code in src/heightmap.cpp
17:30:11 <Rubidium> it's not in trunk yet?
17:30:36 <Rubidium> anyhow, MakePNGImage in screenshot.cpp adds the metadata
17:30:38 <Alberth> it is
17:31:39 <Rubidium> ah, the writing code isn't in heightmap.cpp
17:32:02 <Rubidium> so yes, it'll probably already be in the heightmaps
17:34:12 <Alberth> ? oh, it's screenshot.cpp of course, stupid me
17:35:22 <Rubidium> and osie's also in svn: ^/extra/osie
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17:43:01 <Rubidium> but I agree with Alberth that most of my projects are "dead"
17:45:19 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22539 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
17:45:19 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: portuguese - 2 changes by JayCity
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18:49:57 <Terkhen> hmm... 1.1.1 is not in the "Minimum OpenTTD Version" menu on bananas
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18:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause> someone forgot a step in the release process?
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18:56:24 <Terkhen> I don't know how is this usually updated
18:56:36 <Terkhen> TrueBrain, Rubidium ^
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19:09:17 <Rubidium> Terkhen: by hand :( and with a restart of the webserver :(
19:09:28 <Terkhen> oh :(
19:09:55 <V453000> how is it possible that I have Total bridges 1.11 in my data folder, I can easily create games with it, but when I am trying to join a server, it says that TBRS1.11 matching file not found
19:10:54 <Rubidium> different grfid / md5 checksum
19:11:51 <Rubidium> there are at least 3 different grfs with version 1.11
19:11:57 <V453000> oh :D
19:12:33 <Rubidium> likewise that there are 6 newstations 0.42
19:12:52 <V453000> hmf
19:13:00 <V453000> both md5 and grfid are the same
19:13:03 <Rubidium> and 6 ttrs 3.02
19:13:05 <V453000> letter by letter
19:14:01 <V453000> oh wait
19:14:22 <V453000> of course I am talking nonsense ...
19:14:26 <V453000> they are different :)
19:14:29 <Rubidium> Terkhen: better now?
19:15:44 <Terkhen> Rubidium: no, it is still not there
19:15:46 <V453000> hm, ok, so I certainly have the wrong one ... how do I obtain the correct one though please?
19:16:20 <Rubidium> V453000: if it ain't on bananas... try grfcrawler, forum, google, ...
19:16:48 <V453000> google is silent and I already downloaded it from forums :p
19:17:27 <V453000> and crawler just links to forum :|
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19:48:34 <andythenorth> Ammler: you mentioned a VM environment for testing (maybe new) bananas?
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20:09:08 <Terkhen> now 1.1.1 is there, thank you Rubidium :)
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20:11:39 <__ln__> is it possible to think of a commercial software product being sold in germany/france/spain without having the piece of software localized into german/french/spanish? typical end-users being non-technical persons
20:11:43 <ChoHag> What the likely reason vehicles aren't being serviced when their %-age drops below the set level?
20:13:02 <ChoHag> I have trains travelling most of the way across an enormous map and they arrive at their destination with 0% reliability.
20:13:17 <ChoHag> Even though their service interval is set at 65%.
20:14:27 <Rubidium> isn't it that vehicles are serviced when their reliability is the set amount less than the maximum reliability?
20:14:57 <ChoHag> I don't know.
20:15:26 <ChoHag> Seems logical to me it would be 'service ASAP after reliability drops below $value percent'.
20:15:50 <Terkhen> __ln__: there is no market for that in spain, I guess... although you might be able to change the language to english if it is included
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20:16:02 <ChoHag> Whether that's %-age of max, or of 100 (ie. per-'cent'), I don't know.
20:16:28 <Rubidium> even so, there are many other reasons why vehicles don't service
20:17:10 <Rubidium> e.g. breakdowns disabled and setting "disable servicing when breakdowns are disabled"
20:17:19 <ChoHag> Well it isn't that.
20:17:25 <ChoHag> Damn things are breaking down near constantly.
20:17:47 <Rubidium> or depots being too far from the main line
20:17:48 <Rubidium> or ...
20:17:58 <Rubidium> so... provide a savegame
20:18:23 <__ln__> Terkhen: yes, my implicit assumption in the question was that the language is english rather than the local language.
20:19:26 <ChoHag> They happily go straight past depots and ignore them.
20:20:53 <andythenorth> put a pbs signal in the tile before the depot
20:21:09 <andythenorth> they're probably not finding a path
20:21:42 <ChoHag> There is, and the depots are _right_ _on_ the line.
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20:24:10 <ChoHag> Savegame will be complicated.
20:24:39 <ChoHag> I've ported my shipboost patch over to yacd 2.3 and haven't released it anywhere, so I'm running my own binary.
20:31:01 <andythenorth> is bananas translated in any form?
20:34:02 <Terkhen> I don't think so
20:34:58 <Terkhen> I guess that you could move the strings to files with format similar to OpenTTD in case that in the future WT allows to translate other applications
20:35:30 <Terkhen> but that seems like looking too far ahead to me
20:35:50 <andythenorth> probably
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21:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the whole website was once prepared to be translated, but that was never implemented
21:15:19 <glx> well translations are implemented, just not yet included in WT :)
21:17:14 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22540 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Rename AcceptancePickup to GoodsEntryStatus.
21:19:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22541 /trunk/src/station_base.h: -Document: GoodsEntry struct.
21:21:02 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22542 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp station_base.h station_cmd.cpp): -Add: Store cargo acceptance stats for stations.
21:24:24 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22543 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] Support for station variable 0x69.
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21:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> alledgedly, some unreleased version of newhouses did check "acceptance of nearby station"
21:55:34 * Zuu wonders what station variable 0x69 does.
21:56:12 <Terkhen> it is an exercise for learning how to code variables :P
21:57:47 <ccfreak2k> Zuu, it's the hottest variable.
21:57:55 <Zuu> "Information about cargo accepted in the past" ?
21:58:25 <Zuu> At least there is a variable 69 in the spec with that description.
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21:59:46 <Terkhen> Zuu: yes, is that one
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22:06:41 <Zuu> Hmm, I'm thinking about the usefulness of exposing the GoodsEntryStatus to AIs.
22:07:20 <Zuu> (and players to be fair in the AI <-> player battle)
22:07:47 <Zuu> Though, players already got some features that AIs don't have.
22:09:26 <Terkhen> this info is not visible for players either
22:10:45 <Zuu> I realized that, so if AIs get it, it would have to be exposed to players too in order to be fair.
22:11:05 <Terkhen> it could be an effort in two parts: enhanced station GUI and more station stats available to AIs
22:14:01 <Zuu> Yes, though with some more though, with stats like this players will have hard to find time to mak use of it while AIs might even save some processing as they can reduce the statistics collection part.
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22:14:12 <Zuu> make*
22:15:51 <Terkhen> the stats currently stored are not very informative, so you would need to extend that too
22:21:00 <bodis> how do you make out of town airport accept passengers?
22:21:33 <Zuu> bodis: Do you want to figure out if the airport accept passengers?
22:22:00 <bodis> well I have built an airport outside city, so outside any coverage area
22:22:19 <bodis> is it possible for it to accept passengers without using transfer?
22:22:29 <Zuu> Select to build a new airport of the same type. Hover with the mouse over the existing airport to see what it covers. Also in the build airport window you'll see which cargos that the airport (will) accept.
22:22:45 <Zuu> Oh,
22:23:07 <bodis> yeah I am trying to make sort of a central airport
22:23:08 <Zuu> You can transfer in one direction.
22:23:15 <Zuu> Not dual
22:23:22 <bodis> but then it will not work both directions
22:23:40 <Zuu> Unless you use an OpenTTD build with cargo destinations.
22:23:51 <bodis> damn this is not gonna quite work
22:24:15 <Zuu> For dual transfers you need two airports, one in each direction.
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22:24:32 <Terkhen> you need an arrivals terminal and a departures terminal :)
22:24:44 <bodis> hmm thats interesting :)
22:24:51 <bodis> when you put it like that
22:24:52 <Terkhen> it is quite complicated to set up
22:24:56 <Zuu> If you also have multiple relations (pairs of towns) you really need two airports per relation - one for each direction - to not mix up passengers.
22:25:06 <Terkhen> ^
22:25:09 <Zuu> Which is why you want a destination model.
22:25:19 <bodis> yep
22:25:23 <Terkhen> with yacd you can just set up a single airport and forget about it
22:25:33 <bodis> whats yacd?
22:25:37 <Zuu> Yea, go and download YACD and have fun :-)
22:25:40 <Terkhen> a patch for cargo destinations
22:25:52 <Terkhen> I wouldn't recommend it until you know how to play default, though
22:26:00 <Terkhen> it is quite difficult to make money at first :)
22:26:00 <bodis> ok :)
22:26:04 <Zuu> <-- YACD
22:26:20 <bodis> ty I will try it conventional first :)
22:26:34 <Terkhen> ok :)
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22:29:36 <Zuu> Though Terkhen is right, with yacd it is far more difficult to make money. It is also an ongoing development and is thus a more of a moving target.
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22:32:40 <bodis> If I set up departures and arrivals airport then after dropping off passengers plane would have to fly from arrivals to departures right?
22:32:51 <bodis> empty that is
22:32:53 <Zuu> Yes
22:33:00 <bodis> k
22:33:24 <Zuu> There is a wiki article on how to set up two-directional transfer systems.
22:33:53 <Zuu>
22:35:40 <Terkhen> good night
22:35:52 <Zuu> night Terkhen
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23:31:41 <Wolf01> 'night
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