IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-26
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05:57:06 * andythenorth has a suggestion for invisibility panel
05:57:19 <andythenorth> lets make it really big, so it's really clear and easy to understand
05:57:35 <andythenorth> no matter that it obscures 66.67% of available screen
05:57:45 <SmatZ> and occupies half of the screen!
05:57:49 <andythenorth> we could add another button to it
05:57:55 <andythenorth> 'make the invisibility panel invisible'
05:58:51 <andythenorth> of course the solution for all GUI problems is to simply add a button to the visible GUI to suit each kind of person
05:59:03 * andythenorth has not yet had caffeine
05:59:06 <SmatZ> the 'X' button makes the window invisible
05:59:21 <andythenorth> cmd-q, enter makes it invisible on OS X
05:59:32 <andythenorth> along with the rest of the game :P
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06:35:54 <Zuu> hello planetmaker and see you later
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08:07:07 <Felicitus> any news regarding FS#1622 ? the feature request is very old (2008), has a patch (updated in 2010) but no acticity since then
08:34:29 <LordAro> Felicitus: i think you need to look at Belugas' comments on the patch
08:36:20 <LordAro> anyone here able to help with bash scripting? 'if [[!$2] -o [$2 != "default"]]; then' results in: './autohgpull.sh: line 15: [[!]: command not found'
08:37:20 <TWerkhoven> never really done bash before, but it sounds like variable $2 is empty
08:37:42 <TWerkhoven> because it tries to do the not (!) without anything else
08:37:50 <Felicitus> LordAro: yes, but since chu updated his patch, maybe a re-review would be nice. that's a feature very useful on goal servers
08:38:57 <LordAro> Felicitus: yes, i agree :)
08:39:14 <Felicitus> LordAro: try adding a space between ! and $2
08:39:23 <Felicitus> and between [ and !
08:39:31 <Felicitus> i think bash is bretty picky about that ;)
08:39:45 <Felicitus> (but I'm no bash expert either, just a guess)
08:39:58 <LordAro> i'm trying to do: "if $2 exists or $2 equals "default""
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08:40:05 <LordAro> i'll try your suggestion
08:40:27 <TWerkhoven> if $2 <> $null (is that valid bash?)
08:40:35 * andythenorth got stitched up by automatic orders
08:41:11 <andythenorth> they affect the vehicles list for stations
08:41:38 <andythenorth> so I've needlessly scrapped some vehicles
08:41:50 <andythenorth> thinking there were far too many serving a station
08:43:12 <Ammler> [[ -z "$2" -o "$2" != "default" ]]
08:44:08 <LordAro> thank you o-great-bash-master Ammler :)
08:45:23 <LordAro> oh - "syntax error near '-o'"
08:46:09 <Ammler> [[ -z $2 ]] || [[ $2 != "default" ]]
08:50:57 <Ammler> acutally [[ isn't test anymore
08:51:42 <LordAro> actually, is there an opposite to '-z'?
08:52:18 <LordAro> is that just [[ $2 ]] ?
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08:54:07 <LordAro> are you sure? it doesn't seem to work...
09:01:20 <planetmaker> Felicitus, indeed it seems that it had coding style issues... and meanwhile the patch is outdated by 6 months again ;-)
09:04:14 <Ammler> LordAro: I have no clue what that should do
09:04:54 <Felicitus> planetmaker: I will see what I can do
09:05:15 <Felicitus> planetmaker: is it OK to take the patch and work upon that?
09:08:19 <Ammler> also [[ "$1" ]] || [[ "$1" != "default" ]] is always true
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09:20:10 <planetmaker> Felicitus, It's not my patch, but I recon it is. Assuming he agreed to GPL v2 as license when posting the original patch, you might want to mention the original patch writer though.
09:23:17 <Felicitus> yes, of course planetmaker. btw does ottd use an automatic code formatter or are coding style issues resolved manually?
09:24:31 <planetmaker> OpenTTD has its coding style which patches must follow. What you use locally to achieve that: your choice. I do it manually
09:24:46 <planetmaker> with an occasional script to check for white spaces
09:25:21 <planetmaker> ^ there's an extensive wiki page on it ;-)
09:26:38 <dihedral> i've seen longer coding style docs - no need to eek at that one ;-)
09:27:32 <planetmaker> not that I've done much research on it, but I've seen the OpenTTD style guide referenced elsewhere. Forgot where, though
09:28:02 <planetmaker> and lengthy != comprehensive ;-)
09:28:19 <planetmaker> the longer, the less likely to be read :-P
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10:40:23 * andythenorth wants new object tiles that accept / produce
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10:48:06 <planetmaker> those'd be industries, andythenorth
10:48:21 <planetmaker> or what would be the difference?
10:48:31 <andythenorth> I ask myself this question too
10:48:53 <andythenorth> I have no good argument
10:48:59 <andythenorth> other than 'indsutry seems wrong for this'
10:49:00 <planetmaker> the 'feature' industry not necessarily needs to provide only industries in the commonly understood sense
10:49:23 <planetmaker> But yes... both makes sense. Somewhat :-)
10:49:34 <andythenorth> I think I am distracted by understanding the code so much
10:49:39 <andythenorth> I can't be objective
10:49:48 <planetmaker> especially with objects? ;-)
10:49:50 <andythenorth> for something like a lighthouse, what makes most sense to player?
10:50:08 <planetmaker> 'light house' indeed feels like object
10:50:46 <planetmaker> But... what would then be the difference to industry (except the technical aspect of views / layouts)?
10:50:55 <planetmaker> Wouldn't players wonder about that?
10:51:09 <planetmaker> Why are industries auto-generated, objects not? Shall that be the difference? The only one?
10:51:23 <planetmaker> Would make *somewhat* sense.
10:51:30 <andythenorth> industry is the correct way to do a lighthouse
10:51:34 <andythenorth> does it seem right though?
10:51:41 <andythenorth> maybe the idea is bad, not the implementation
10:51:45 <andythenorth> is a lighthouse a good idea?
10:51:53 <planetmaker> yes, but not as industry ;-)
10:52:04 <planetmaker> as house or object
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10:55:05 <andythenorth> but if house, it won't build away from town...
10:55:05 <andythenorth> and if object, no pax acceptance / production
10:55:05 <andythenorth> delivering small amounts to lighthouses smells a bit wrong
10:55:05 <andythenorth> not good gameplay
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11:04:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth, what I'd do with a light house is both: house and object. As a house it could be built in a town. On the shore only with sufficient water around. Never to be destroyed again. And as NewObject such that the player can (also) place it where desired. If you want modify (also) the default lighthouse sprite to make it universally used.
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11:04:41 <planetmaker> and of course as house: min distance between eachother
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11:17:16 * andythenorth ponders delivering engineering supplies in phantom f4 fighter jet
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11:27:50 <Terkhen> sounds cool but not very efficient :)
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11:29:09 <SpComb> delivering engineerin supplies in a phantom f4 to a nuclear power plant industry?
11:47:08 <Pikka> they can't carry enough to make money, though :)
11:48:04 <Pikka> norseman should be good for such deliveries, also pc12s, etc.
11:48:09 <Pikka> but for now it is bedtime!
11:48:19 * andythenorth makes a homelette
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12:06:40 * andythenorth ventures into YACD
12:17:11 <andythenorth> this will turn the game upside down
12:21:39 * andythenorth could do with a manual :P
12:23:27 <andythenorth> the concept is quite like 'supply contracts' that have been discussed n times
12:23:32 <andythenorth> but without the faff
12:24:22 * andythenorth is losing money fast
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12:54:51 <planetmaker> can't you air-connect two major towns and be set?
12:55:03 <andythenorth> not sure how YACD handles transfers yet
12:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, automatically, i suppose
12:56:53 <andythenorth> YACD + FIRS is....interesting
12:57:20 <andythenorth> there are conflicts with a few of the FIRS concepts
12:58:13 * andythenorth wonders if cargo from water industries is being handled differently to that from land
12:58:21 <andythenorth> land industry appears to favour nearby destination
12:58:28 <andythenorth> water appears to favour distant destination
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13:00:37 * andythenorth thinks YACD *will* work very well with FIRS clustering of farms and mines etc
13:01:02 <andythenorth> the idea of moving cargo to a hub station via transfers is very YACD-friendly
13:01:16 <andythenorth> switchyards might become a lot more common....
13:01:59 * Eddi|zuHause still finds /yak-d/ hard to pronounce
13:03:02 <andythenorth> is it 'yakked' ?
13:03:12 <andythenorth> as in 'they were yakking, they yakked a lot'
13:03:44 <andythenorth> it's yak-d to me
13:03:48 * Eddi|zuHause doesn't understand the relevance of /iks-ka-tse-de/, which clearly is individual letters...
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13:31:56 * andythenorth isn't yet sure, but YACD might create a case for %loaded orders
13:32:21 <andythenorth> otherwise I have to timetable a lot
13:32:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a patch somewhere that made conditional orders useful for the case that new order = old order
13:33:21 <Eddi|zuHause> 2: if load% < 80%: goto 1
13:33:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the trick here is making the train not leave 1
13:34:17 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, this would make the train start and stop constantly
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13:37:03 * andythenorth will test some more
13:37:50 <andythenorth> the traditional gameplay favours point-point unit trains,
13:38:05 <andythenorth> with YACD, manifest trains might be much more viable
13:38:19 <andythenorth> similarly 'liner service' for ships
13:38:57 <andythenorth> large mixed freights on mainlines might be quite efficient
13:39:08 <andythenorth> but managing the load orders will be complicated
13:39:18 <andythenorth> maybe timetables are the right answer
13:40:19 * andythenorth now wants mixed-cargo ships again :P
13:45:53 <Eddi|zuHause> these are exactly the same thoughts i went through with my last cargodist game :p
13:46:09 <Eddi|zuHause> next thought on that trace is: shunting :p
13:46:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and: trains on ships :p
13:48:17 <lugo> goods (subcargo: trains) ;)
13:51:09 <andythenorth> the incentive seems to be to connect network nodes as densely and quickly as possible
13:51:24 <andythenorth> traditional gameplay, there's no incentive
13:55:02 * andythenorth wonders if there's any point waiting at stations at all
13:55:59 <andythenorth> alluke: I'm discussing YACD - before I mislead you :P
13:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i usually wait at end stations, to have some determined time windows for freight trains
13:56:41 <alluke> freight trains? what are those? :P
13:57:02 <alluke> i see those extremely rare in here :(
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13:58:49 * andythenorth is going to lose this new YACD test game pretty soon too
13:59:19 <andythenorth> everything loses money
13:59:35 <andythenorth> I have a town with 1,700 people, but only 25 want to go somewhere today :|
14:00:31 <planetmaker> it's holiday season
14:00:41 <planetmaker> but 25 people can fill a bus
14:01:59 <alluke> planetmaker you have tiny buses
14:02:58 <andythenorth> local transport is important inside large cities
14:03:31 <andythenorth> totally changes local networks
14:03:35 <planetmaker> maybe that works with yacd, andythenorth ?
14:04:00 <alluke> is yacd some new project?
14:04:40 <alluke> yet another role play?
14:05:47 <andythenorth> alluke: YACD is in the OpenTTD dev forum at tt-forums
14:05:55 <andythenorth> it's another cargo destination patch
14:07:25 * andythenorth wants boats with PAX + mail :(
14:08:26 <planetmaker> is that already on your pony list?
14:08:38 <andythenorth> it's not going to happen
14:08:41 <andythenorth> it has...problems
14:15:05 <planetmaker> doesn't make much sense either, though...
14:15:55 <planetmaker> but maybe... ships could get a 'compartment' property, which gives the number of 'wagons'
14:18:59 <asilv> refitting multicargo ships migh be problematic
14:19:42 <planetmaker> same as refitting trains
14:19:57 <planetmaker> code could be shared there
14:21:15 <asilv> not really, with trains you can refit some vagons and then add vagons refitted to other cargo, that won't work with ships
14:22:51 <planetmaker> hm, maybe the selective consist refit patch never made it into trunk...
14:23:00 <andythenorth> the issue is a GUI for ships
14:23:04 <andythenorth> how many 'holds'
14:23:12 <andythenorth> planes have the same issue, but we all ignore it :P
14:23:22 <andythenorth> it's the usual :\
14:23:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the number of holds could be a newgrf property. And then simply be displayed in the GUI as cargo holds. Easy IMHO
14:23:52 <planetmaker> default ships: 1 cargo hold, nothing changes
14:23:57 <Terkhen> the refit GUI is prepared to deal with multiple parts now, the problem is what "parts" to display for ships
14:23:59 <planetmaker> So nicely backward compatible
14:24:12 <Terkhen> for trains is simple: wagons
14:24:13 <planetmaker> Terkhen, just some generic cargo hold icon
14:24:28 <planetmaker> action5, openttd.grf
14:25:23 <Terkhen> I would recommend fixing all issues with aircrafts first, as they already have "partial" support for this
14:25:46 <planetmaker> but could work the same way
14:27:03 <Terkhen> or at least the parts relating to how the special aircraft refit is hacked into the code
14:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> well cargo holds for ships and for aircraft should not be any different...
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14:29:59 <Terkhen> that's why IMO this should start with making aircraft refits more consistent
14:30:07 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, not that, but Terkhen means the mess of the specs and the convoluted behaviour ;-)
14:30:28 <Terkhen> currently it is a bit hacky
14:30:35 <Terkhen> as you only have one option
14:32:51 <planetmaker> hm, ships have no capacity multiplier?
14:34:59 <andythenorth> YACD might be really quite addictive :o
14:35:33 <andythenorth> it seems to have broken bridge building
14:35:41 <andythenorth> but no, I'm making money
14:36:03 <andythenorth> I've focussed on PAX, and tried to build a dense network very fast
14:36:41 <andythenorth> I've piled *all* my cash into one area
14:36:57 <andythenorth> otherwise I'll never get any vehicles into profit
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14:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> with cargodist i usually pick two cities close to each other, in each one a tram network, and then a train between them
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14:46:16 <alluke> are you seriously going to balance heqs 2 to nars and ukrs?
14:47:08 <andythenorth> alluke: in terms of capacities?
14:47:25 <alluke> they both are seriously undersized
14:47:58 <planetmaker> that's what she says
14:47:58 <alluke> why dont you just get real data from the vehicles theyll be based on
14:48:14 <planetmaker> real is boring and has nothing to do with game balance
14:50:10 <andythenorth> how do you know they're undersized?
14:50:19 <alluke> compare to other sets?
14:50:27 <alluke> OpenTTD is an open source simulation game based upon Transport Tycoon Deluxe
14:50:58 <planetmaker> it simulates particularly well real-world distances and time passage
14:51:27 <Belugas> and "irl"... I hope it's not what I think it means...
14:51:40 <planetmaker> alluke, those who argue "it's good because it's realistic" have lost the argument, as it is no argument for a game ;-)
14:51:44 <Terkhen> it means inverted rail lines :P
14:51:57 <andythenorth> alluke: a real life bethgon coal car has maybe 120t capacity
14:52:01 <alluke> but in my games i find the realistic stuff most fun
14:52:09 <Belugas> then, it's cool, Terkhen :)
14:52:10 <alluke> others can go to toyland :P
14:52:24 <Belugas> alluke, realism stinks in ottd
14:52:28 <andythenorth> how many 120t wagons do I need in my train?
14:52:39 <andythenorth> for a coal mine with 120t production?
14:52:40 <Amis> I was wondering if disabled smooth economy has anything with the following or it's just a grf that's messing with me: even if a power plant has decent supply of coal, it closes after a certain time no matter what (1.1.0-RC3)
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14:53:01 <alluke> real coal trains carry thousands tons of coal
14:53:01 <planetmaker> power plants w/o newgrfs never close
14:53:20 <Amis> I see, so then it's a newgrf fiddling around
14:53:21 <Terkhen> a single diamond or gold mine production equals the real production of the whole world, so you can throw subarctic and subtropical to the same trash bin than toyland :)
14:53:25 <alluke> and 64 tile trains in ottd are superb fun
14:54:04 <Terkhen> 128 wagons is realistic? :P
14:54:25 <andythenorth> alluke: capacity will probably be a parameter option in HEQS 2. Worry not :P
14:54:54 <alluke> i found a vehicle for that set
14:55:44 <andythenorth> you missed that part of the chat I guess ;)
14:55:48 <alluke> a bit different than the current ones in heqs
14:55:55 <Amis> Btw, thinking about this: "[16:53] <planetmaker> power plants w/o newgrfs never close", that means after a while I'll be flooded with power plants because they won't close?
14:56:12 <Terkhen> you will get tons of banks too
14:56:18 <andythenorth> up to 350t, maybe 5 or 6 trailers. Highway truck speeds
14:56:42 <alluke> the sisu carries 120 tons at 40 kmh
14:57:01 <Terkhen> opengfx+ industries allows these industries to close normally... but I wonder if we tested if a power plant can now close when it is serviced
14:57:04 <alluke> 19 liter 612hp cummins industrial diesel
14:57:32 <Amis> Oh, I have opengfx+ and that is probably the one that closes my power plants
14:57:56 <alluke> they were built in early 90s for lkab in sweden
14:58:02 <Terkhen> hmm... IMO closing industries that are being serviced is a bug :/
14:58:32 <planetmaker> Terkhen, it is. But it's a newgrf which does that, so not our bug
14:58:43 <Terkhen> it's a bug of opengfx+ industries :)
14:58:51 <planetmaker> oh, he. ok. our ;-)
14:59:32 <Terkhen> I suppose "normal" secondary industries don't close as long as they are producing
15:00:02 <Terkhen> and I begin to remember all the problems that andy had while trying to force power plants to behave in FIRS :P
15:00:59 <planetmaker> Terkhen, we probably need to use some kind of persistent storage and a closure callback
15:01:07 <planetmaker> at least that'd be a way ;-)
15:01:21 <planetmaker> like, no vehicle arrived the last 5 years: yes, you may close
15:01:24 <Terkhen> as long as it is not stockpiling... :/
15:01:44 <Terkhen> sounds complicated to code
15:01:47 <Amis> Btw, how does the game pick location for a new industry?
15:03:33 <planetmaker> IND_CBF_PROD_CB_CARGO_ARRIVE and IND_CBF_MONTLY_PROD_CHANGE and IND_CBF_RANDOM_PROD_CHANGE probably
15:03:58 <planetmaker> yes, probably not 100% straight forward
15:06:05 <andythenorth> just make the power plant a black hole industry
15:06:08 <andythenorth> it shouldn't close then
15:06:30 <Amis> That solves one problem and brings in another
15:07:26 <andythenorth> you want closure?
15:07:27 <planetmaker> Terkhen, we should look at manind newgrf ;-)
15:07:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth, for un-serviced power plants, sure
15:07:50 <andythenorth> on what condition? No cargo delivered for 5 years?
15:07:52 <Terkhen> s/look/shamelessly copy/ :)
15:08:01 <planetmaker> psst, but yes ;-)
15:08:28 <andythenorth> reset a value to 0 every time that cargo is delivered
15:08:30 <Terkhen> andythenorth: the goal is just that long games don't get completely flooded with power plants
15:08:32 <andythenorth> using the production cb
15:08:39 <andythenorth> increment the value every month
15:08:57 <andythenorth> when the value == 60, permit closing when monthly or random cb runs
15:09:04 <andythenorth> if value < 60, don't allow closing
15:09:35 <andythenorth> the PITA was trying to prevent a wave of closures
15:09:45 <andythenorth> which is not conceptually possible in current spec
15:09:47 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I guess we need just that as a template for many industries
15:10:14 <Terkhen> which ones besides the power plant would need this?
15:10:37 <andythenorth> it's useful for other secondaries imho
15:11:35 <Amis> You could also pitch in a code that prevents it from flooding one area with oil rig when there is a minimal open water :>
15:11:44 <planetmaker> hm, the power plant already is LIFE_TYPE_BLACK_HOLE?
15:11:50 <andythenorth> Amis that's just anti-clustering - easy :)
15:13:05 <andythenorth> cb28 + var 67 or 68
15:13:23 <andythenorth> make the distance a parameter
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15:15:58 <Terkhen> oil platforms already have similar code for being placed close to water
15:16:11 <Terkhen> but wouldn't setting oil rig as conflicting industry for oil rigs be enough?
15:23:39 <TheVal> Andy.. you referred to highway truck speeds for those powertrans lorries... How?
15:23:41 <planetmaker> hm... the fruit plantation should change to a bananas plantation. Would fit better than a kind of palm tree ;-)
15:24:36 <TheVal> I mean you'd need to give the truck 2000 hp or more to reach speeds of >70 km/h with a 350 ton load
15:25:45 <TheVal> Speaking of reality... 20.000 ton coal trains without cargo weight multiplier anyone?
15:25:46 <alluke> planetmaker id like to see your sp game
15:26:09 <planetmaker> I play multiplayer nearly exclusively, alluke ;-)
15:26:31 <alluke> well join mine and vals mp game for once
15:26:46 <planetmaker> with 64-tile trains?
15:26:47 <TheVal> looks like I have to confirm your MP activity alluke
15:27:01 <TheVal> Well, maybe not with a 64 tile train
15:27:08 <TheVal> would not hurt to have a decent capacity on them though
15:27:24 <planetmaker> I think I prefer another style ;-)
15:27:30 <TheVal> ~100 tons of coal/ore for 1 realistic modern big-size hopper
15:27:43 <alluke> im running 12 64 tilers at my coal mines iirc
15:27:44 <TheVal> ...that would not make the majority of trains look stupid either
15:28:08 <alluke> the biggest non-2cc you can find
15:28:18 <alluke> because 2cc is rubbish mostly
15:28:23 <TheVal> like, for instance, a 4TE10C hauling a 64 ton ore train to top speed easily on flat ground
15:29:00 <TheVal> but the capacity is a problem in the most cases
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15:29:27 <TheVal> it's quite annoying to have to use up to 20 cars to even get 800 tons of payload
15:30:13 <planetmaker> that's what the weight multiplier is for. Set it to 10 and you need 3 wagons of 35t load to haul 1050t ;-)
15:30:26 <TheVal> but all you get is unnecessary ballast
15:30:33 <TheVal> instead of that very amount of cargo
15:30:59 <planetmaker> alluke, but you find all my games in the PublicServerArchive ;-)
15:30:59 <Amis> OpenTTD is easy enough without the oversized wagons
15:31:07 <TheVal> it's not the payload that's increased. it's just the weight
15:31:15 <TheVal> what would "oversized" wagons make easier?
15:31:16 <andythenorth> how many 800t / month coal mines do you have?
15:31:20 <TheVal> they'd actually be realistic
15:31:29 <TheVal> depends on what you're trying to imitate
15:31:47 <TheVal> if it's the LKAB Kiruna mine I use two dozen regular ore mines
15:32:06 <Amis> Well then first do something with the interest rate because it's not realistic to have 4% as the maximum, what if I want to simulate the falling economy with 10-15% interest rates
15:32:27 <TheVal> should be added - i agree
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15:32:41 <TheVal> but I don't see a reason for why 100 ton hoppers as they really exist would make the game easier
15:32:52 <planetmaker> interest is not interesting. I have paid off the loan after 5 years usually ;-) Of course it depends on settings / newgrfs
15:32:53 <TheVal> you still have to gather that amount of cargo
15:32:57 <Amis> Shorter trains, stations
15:33:01 <alluke> also if they cost as much as irl
15:33:19 <TheVal> short trains do nothing but look stupid
15:33:29 <Amis> Well... you can't fit a 64 tile train into a valley but you can do the same with a 12 tile train
15:33:34 <TheVal> if they are too light.
15:33:41 <Felicitus> I usually play on luuk, where players usually pay back their loan after 1-2 years
15:33:43 <TheVal> if they have that length for a reason it's fine
15:33:50 <Felicitus> even less in some games (hard settings)
15:34:16 <alluke> they dont use any grfs
15:34:33 <planetmaker> Felicitus, for fun I once joined such goal server some time ago. We owned all players in that game in no time ;-)
15:34:45 <planetmaker> even though we started like 10 years after them
15:34:46 <TheVal> if you don't have the necessary output you don't have a reaosn to use a big freight locomotive
15:34:59 <TheVal> which would actually boost the use of shunters for smaller mines....
15:35:00 <Felicitus> planetmaker: do you want to have a match ? ;)
15:35:12 <Felicitus> planetmaker: but I play city builder only
15:35:18 <TheVal> smaller standard road vehicles would not hurt either (non-HEQS that is)
15:35:44 <planetmaker> I've not played there or that, Felicitus
15:35:52 <TheVal> the eGRVTS trucks carry over 55 tons of payload. it's just silly if you consider that for most trucks the total limit is between 40 and 50 tons
15:35:58 <planetmaker> and given the history they won't fancy me joining ;-)
15:36:00 <TheVal> some of the eGRVTS trucks
15:36:27 <planetmaker> (nor do I fancy that actually)
15:36:52 <TheVal> for 1 trailer on a highway you cannot expect to load 55 tons of cargo
15:36:57 <TheVal> just think of the brakes
15:37:10 <TheVal> it'd be outright suicidal
15:37:12 <planetmaker> TheVal, there are trucks with 60t weight
15:37:20 <alluke> in here maximum total mass for truck is 60t
15:37:22 <planetmaker> experimental, but running the roads in the EU
15:37:28 <TheVal> Yeah, but they have 2 trailers
15:37:49 <TheVal> well, finland is another story.
15:37:50 <Felicitus> planetmaker: city builder is a variant of a goal game where you need to grow your town to the highest population. depending on the size of your town, you need to deliver a certain amount of goods, coal, pax, food, water, valuables, gold (exact types required differ with climate, of course)
15:38:04 <alluke> and the rest of europe
15:38:08 <Terkhen> trucks are almost as long as a passenger ferry :)
15:38:10 <planetmaker> Felicitus, my highest population town I grew is 1 million ;-)
15:38:15 <TheVal> usually the limit is 40-50 tons of total weight
15:38:22 <TheVal> that's dry weight + cargo
15:38:35 <TheVal> look at france, the UK, etc
15:38:39 <TheVal> not much different there
15:38:54 <planetmaker> TheVal, they have the 60t test trucks afaik, too
15:39:01 <TheVal> but not 60 tons of payload!
15:39:04 <Felicitus> planetmaker: yes, but you can't compare that to cb. it's limited to 12 years
15:39:11 <alluke> whats the point of limting the mass
15:39:19 <TheVal> and the 60 ton trucks - like I said - are usually using 2 trailers
15:39:34 <planetmaker> accident severity
15:39:45 <TheVal> like the bigger of the two Renault Magnums in the hungarian truck set
15:40:17 <TheVal> also, with more realistic power & weight you're getting nearer to where the truck is supposed to be with its performance...
15:40:37 <TheVal> but that's another story
15:40:58 <TheVal> I do not understand why Road Vehicles are allowed a bigger specific capacity than trains
15:41:05 <TheVal> it should be viceversa
15:41:16 <TheVal> as railways are more expensive to set up
15:41:48 <Terkhen> viceversa it also works
15:42:18 <TheVal> why would you even run a train if less tiles of RV can carry more cargo?
15:42:43 <TheVal> not to mention the radically much cheaper setup costs
15:42:53 <planetmaker> not capacity but through-put is important. Which is v * m
15:43:09 <Amis> You know what makes trains useless? The airplane newgrfs where they let the plane carry stuff like... coal... and... oil...
15:43:10 <Terkhen> if you don't like sets with high capacity road vehicles, don't use them
15:43:27 <TheVal> On my server such applications of airplanes are not allowed...
15:43:36 <alluke> coal and oil planes are banned in our games
15:43:37 <Terkhen> the game gives possibilities to all NewGRF coders, it is up to the user to choose which ones fit his gamestyle
15:43:38 <TheVal> no that's not the point
15:43:45 <TheVal> high-capacity RVs have a reason to be there
15:44:06 <TheVal> but I don't get how everyone has a problem with hopper cars carrying more than 50 tons of payload
15:44:13 <TheVal> look at all the bloody train sets
15:44:30 <Terkhen> choose a different train set then
15:44:32 <TheVal> practically nowhere you can find a hopper capable of transporting >60 tons of minerals
15:44:36 <Doorslammer> I like this guy, he swears like me
15:44:41 <TheVal> I tried pretty much all of them
15:44:52 <alluke> 2cc is maximun with 60 tons
15:45:10 <alluke> then are the others with 30-40
15:45:20 <alluke> and at the bottom the louse 20 ton ukrs
15:45:35 <Amis> In reality they use trains only for high distances... trucks are good for shorter distances and it's fine if it can carry almost 60 tonnes
15:45:48 <TheVal> well that's why trains need a huge capacity
15:46:16 <Terkhen> I don't really get your point
15:46:44 <TheVal> it's getting increasingly idiotic when you take the hassle to set up a rail network to then realize you need oversized trains to transport the amount of cargo a small amount of normal trucks could handle with a highway network
15:47:00 <TheVal> I'm not referring to HEQS trucks, but to the normal semis
15:47:08 <Doorslammer> Well... that's how it is in life
15:47:25 <Doorslammer> Seen the amount of railways put out of business thanks to trucks?
15:47:42 <TheVal> in real life, hopper cars have a higher capacity than trailers of trucks covering large distances
15:48:06 <TheVal> as much as 100 tons per hopper car
15:48:27 <Chris_Booth> TheVal this is not real life
15:48:31 <TheVal> while the average truck carries 25-40 tons
15:48:41 <Doorslammer> So why have a go at the trucks when the trains need more capacity?
15:49:22 <Chris_Booth> also no openttd loco could pull a 100 ton wagon
15:49:24 <TheVal> why does this game have trains at all if they're made obsolete by unrealistic RVs and artificial limitations anyway?
15:49:41 <TheVal> ever tried the norwegian train set?
15:49:43 <Terkhen> I still don't see the point
15:49:48 <TheVal> or the russian and american set
15:49:53 <Chris_Booth> TheVal what RVs make trains useless?
15:49:55 <alluke> ever heard of coupling or newgrfs?
15:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "realistic" trucks have a huge advantage at small-quantity point-to-point transport
15:49:58 <TheVal> all I am asking for is more capacity for train cars
15:50:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but most TTD industries produce large quantities
15:50:13 <Terkhen> in my experience, road vehicles never can achieve the capacity of trains
15:50:28 <Terkhen> TheVal: there are tools to do that
15:50:29 <Chris_Booth> to many noobs here saying stupid things
15:50:38 <TheVal> well, I have eGRVTS, HTS and some other RV sets in
15:50:55 <TheVal> to increase the capacity of all freight cars of NewGRF sets to realistic levels?
15:50:59 <Chris_Booth> TheVal: want big wagons look for 2cc train set on bananas
15:51:04 <Chris_Booth> they have stupid huge wagons
15:51:10 <TheVal> they're still too small
15:51:21 <Chris_Booth> they are the largest I know of
15:51:28 <Chris_Booth> 100tonnes a wagon
15:51:32 <TheVal> the train that derailed at San bernadino in 1989 had hoppers loaded with 100 tons each
15:51:34 <andythenorth> egrvts is too big
15:51:38 <Terkhen> write a feature request for 2cc or whatever set you are interested in
15:51:38 <TheVal> the larges 2cc hoppers carry 60 tons
15:51:42 <Terkhen> it is not really an OpenTTD issue
15:52:06 <TheVal> True under that aspect...
15:52:15 <Amis> Multiply every number with 2 in your mind and your are set
15:52:30 <TheVal> that ain't what I am looking for
15:52:37 <alluke> its not the mass of train
15:52:41 <Amis> Heck it's still a solution
15:52:45 <alluke> its how much stuff the train contains
15:52:50 <TheVal> realistic capacity causing realistic weight
15:52:58 <Chris_Booth> or TheVal you could go buy your self a real train
15:53:05 <Chris_Booth> and not play openttd XD
15:53:13 <alluke> guess which is cheaper
15:53:34 <Terkhen> both openttd and complaining are free :)
15:53:46 <andythenorth> what was the question?
15:53:59 <Doorslammer> I still don't know
15:54:03 <TheVal> Too low capacities of the cars of trains
15:54:12 <Chris_Booth> they are not TheVal
15:54:14 <TheVal> NewGRF sets in particular
15:54:31 <TheVal> Compared to the real levels they are wrong!
15:54:40 <Terkhen> TheVal: if none of the hundreds of NewGRF sets suits your gamestyle, write your own; if you already tried most of them there is nothing we can do to help you, really
15:54:46 <alluke> i think the finnish set will be first trainset with real-life data
15:54:53 <Doorslammer> Think you'll find when a 100 ton hopper is full, it's not necessarily taken on 100 ton
15:54:54 <Chris_Booth> you are telling me a wagon that is 300miles long is correct?
15:54:56 <Belugas> [11:54] <TheVal> Compared to the real levels they are wrong! <--- BOOO!!!!!
15:55:01 <TheVal> and to make things even worse, most NewGRFs for RVs have too high capacities
15:55:05 <Amis> TheVal, a top notch coal mine in OpenTTD can mine about 15000 tonnes a year, now in real life they can mine half a million. As you can see all you have to do is use the weight multiplier since no value has connection with reality
15:55:18 <Terkhen> you might also want to ask yourself why none of the set does this
15:55:36 <TheVal> that's why you need to place several mines next to each other if you want to imitate a gigantic mine like that of LKAB in Kiruna
15:55:58 <Belugas> And ask yourself why a bridge takes less than a day to be built in the game, while it can take years in real life!!!
15:56:01 <andythenorth> 15,000t from an openttd mine?
15:56:07 <Chris_Booth> TheVal this a a game not a simulator
15:56:18 <Amis> You would have to place 200 mines next to each other to be able to campare to real life
15:56:31 <alluke> OpenTTD is an open source simulation game based upon Transport Tycoon Deluxe
15:56:32 <TheVal> but that still doesn't explain why the capacities of the cars of trains are artificially lowered
15:56:41 <alluke> reads in the main page
15:56:41 <Chris_Booth> actualt 2225 is max for mine IIRC
15:56:49 <Terkhen> where does it say that it tries to simulate reality?
15:56:55 <alluke> or will planetmaker change that now? :P
15:56:59 <Doorslammer> I got a Chaney Jubilee with a 2,600t coal train in Poland right now <--- Never actually happened...
15:57:04 <Terkhen> as I already said, a truck is almost as long as a passenger ferry
15:57:06 <TheVal> let me load up my NewGRF list of my current game
15:57:09 <andythenorth> approx 2048 is my guess for a ttd mine
15:57:14 <andythenorth> FIRS will be about the sam
15:57:26 <Terkhen> a single gold mine produces as much gold as the whole real world, monthly
15:57:31 <Terkhen> the game does not try to be realistic
15:57:43 <Chris_Booth> ECS is a swear work
15:57:54 <TheVal> depends on your viewpoint
15:57:58 <Chris_Booth> we like FIRS here
15:58:00 <TheVal> for me it's the rescue
15:58:07 <alluke> how much did andy pay you? :P
15:58:22 <TheVal> no need to adapt to other people's opinions - but the decision should be left to the player
15:58:29 <andythenorth> Chris_Booth: it's not a competition :P
15:58:39 <TheVal> especially when it comes to capacities
15:58:42 <Chris_Booth> if it was FIRS would win :D
15:58:43 <alluke> then why do you leave out ecs support from heqs?
15:58:47 <andythenorth> TheVal: there's no entry fee to coding newgrfs
15:58:50 <andythenorth> Chris_Booth: unhelpful
15:59:04 <andythenorth> alluke: raise a ticket for the lack of ECS support
15:59:10 <andythenorth> with details of what's missing
15:59:11 <TheVal> but creating duplicates is not exactly the most senseful idea in history either, is it?
15:59:12 <Chris_Booth> alluke probably to much work to maintain
15:59:25 <alluke> still firs will have full support
15:59:29 <alluke> and it isnt even finished
15:59:30 <TheVal> slight adjustments through parameters would already address this issue perfectly
15:59:31 <Amis> There is one change in the later OpenTTDs, you can no longer disable newgrfs while in game, why is that?
15:59:40 <Chris_Booth> ECS is less playable
15:59:44 <Chris_Booth> with mines closing
15:59:46 <TheVal> you can if you hack the openttd.cfg file
15:59:53 <alluke> that can be turned off by parameter
15:59:56 <TheVal> dev tools or something to 1
16:00:45 <alluke> andy how do i put new issue there
16:00:54 <Chris_Booth> so TheVal you want massive wagons that will only move once every 3 or 4 years?
16:01:05 <alluke> cant find the button :/
16:01:19 <TheVal> ahem... if you don't use too many that will not be the case
16:01:25 <TheVal> you only need trains for large amounts of cargo
16:01:32 <andythenorth> alluke: what makes you think FIRS will have full support?
16:01:53 <Chris_Booth> I am leaving the argument
16:01:59 <Chris_Booth> its just going arround in circles
16:03:02 <andythenorth> TheVal: alluke there's no entry fee for coding grfs
16:03:09 <andythenorth> if you don't like current capacity, fix it
16:03:13 <andythenorth> by writing your own grf
16:03:20 <Terkhen> you are actually accusing him of only supporting his own stuff and actively denying support to other sets?
16:03:39 <Chris_Booth> most current GRF have the source released so you can compile your own
16:04:18 <Chris_Booth> if you know what you are doing
16:04:22 <Terkhen> some of the most active NewGRF developers use mac
16:05:13 <andythenorth> omg no wtf there is no way you can use a mac
16:05:20 <Chris_Booth> and atleast one openttd coop dev uses a mac
16:05:44 <Chris_Booth> like red hat andythenorth ?
16:05:49 * andythenorth removes mac support from FIRS, HEQS, CHIPS and FISH
16:06:05 <Chris_Booth> mac == bank robery
16:06:12 <Chris_Booth> windows == depression
16:06:42 <Doorslammer> We've lost the point a bit
16:06:47 <TheVal> mac = if you remember to sell it before it outdates completely (eg after 3 years) you still get a reasonable amount of money for it
16:07:11 * andythenorth suspects a forthcoming godwin situation
16:07:19 <andythenorth> it's usually a flowchart
16:07:31 <Chris_Booth> I love flow chart
16:07:38 <Doorslammer> Now if Hitler owned a Mac...
16:07:40 <andythenorth> mac vs. others || vi vs. emacs ==> godwin
16:07:40 <TheVal> which is what will happen to my aluminium unibody MacBook this winter possibly... I can still expect around 2/3 of the original value
16:07:45 <Chris_Booth> I use them to bore people at work all the time
16:07:59 * andythenorth will do something more useful than this
16:08:05 <Chris_Booth> TheVal: are you mad
16:08:08 <Terkhen> good idea andythenorth :)
16:08:25 <Terkhen> I should too, but I can't continue working until a long compilation finishes
16:08:25 <TheVal> it will be totally refurbished by then
16:08:26 <Chris_Booth> no one want second hand laptop
16:08:32 <Doorslammer> So what was the problem again?
16:08:33 <andythenorth> what an increasingly epic waste of time
16:08:45 <andythenorth> can someone kick some other people please
16:08:46 <Chris_Booth> just someone that wanted a chat
16:08:51 <andythenorth> the candidates should be obvious
16:09:12 <TheVal> ah whatever. going to put up my server. talk to you later ;-)
16:09:58 <andythenorth> TheVal: capacity is solvable - if you wanted to...
16:10:53 <TheVal> ....code and create substitute / alternative / space wasting sets?
16:11:11 <TheVal> I don't get what the big deal with adding a parameter is.
16:11:17 <TheVal> that's all that's needed
16:11:18 <Terkhen> code the parameter then
16:11:27 <Terkhen> many sets are open source, you can contribute patches to them
16:12:02 <TheVal> will try when I have the free time to learn how to code
16:12:08 <andythenorth> TheVal: the big deal is that the people who maintain NARS 2 and UKRS aren't interested in your request :)
16:12:14 <andythenorth> there's not much you can do about that
16:12:21 <andythenorth> and none of them are here right now
16:12:25 <Doorslammer> Longer trains maybe
16:12:55 <TheVal> good attempt Doorslammer. that is the problem
16:13:47 <TheVal> current real limit: 20000 tons for a coal train (China; Daqin line)
16:13:54 <Doorslammer> Surely you don't need it that long?
16:14:12 <TheVal> you reach the tile limit before the weight limit if you use a decent payload to weight ratio
16:14:36 * andythenorth suspects this might be a losing battle
16:14:43 <andythenorth> what's the most popular newgrf on bananas?
16:14:59 <andythenorth> it changed actually
16:15:01 <alluke> is there a way to sort em like that
16:15:03 <andythenorth> but it used to be 'very large ships'
16:15:25 <andythenorth> very large ships has *fricking stupid* capacities
16:15:32 <andythenorth> yet it's one of the most downloaded grfs
16:16:36 <TheVal> well... it did make sense in terms of realism. did, however mean that you need several major trains to fill a ship
16:17:05 <TheVal> I would possibly use it if they weren't optically outdated that badly
16:17:37 <TheVal> would also clean up the shipping routes ;-)
16:17:42 <alluke> add-on grf for fish? :P
16:18:16 <alluke> how can vehicle ferries carry coal?
16:18:44 <TheVal> of course it is. but so is having 20 coasters travelling between 2 ports at the same time
16:18:51 <Doorslammer> Weeeell... it could be converted? Pointles I know, but silly things occur on this planet
16:18:57 <alluke> dont take it personally
16:19:23 <TheVal> in reality you have major piles (optical illusion possible through ISR) next to the docks
16:19:35 <Amis> "planet".... the earth is flat according to OpenTTD and world does end at the edges
16:19:53 <TheVal> ships do not really run for 200 tons of coal unless they're tiny
16:20:20 <andythenorth> - the world is not 256 colours
16:20:27 <andythenorth> - there isn't a giant arrow floating over the world
16:20:33 <andythenorth> - the world does not have gridlines
16:20:34 <TheVal> OTTD is an Industrial Simulation
16:20:37 <andythenorth> - the world has perspective
16:20:50 <andythenorth> - 64 tile trains cannot disappear into a 1 tile depot
16:20:59 <Felicitus> andythenorth: I disagree. I have seen the giant arrow multiple times, especially when drunk
16:21:01 <andythenorth> it is not permanent daylight
16:21:10 <TheVal> well what do we have the MLSS depots for...
16:21:11 <andythenorth> - road vehicles do not drive through each other
16:21:17 <andythenorth> - ships do not drive through each other
16:21:23 <alluke> the gridlines can be hidden :P
16:21:23 <Doorslammer> The towns have their names hovering in the centre, though
16:22:04 <Doorslammer> And road vehicles do drive through each other, though I suspect that's an Australian custom of sorts
16:22:10 <Terkhen> andythenorth: better go back to that productive work you mentioned earlier :P
16:22:12 <Amis> Question related: why do some trucks randomly go over each other when waiting behind eachother?
16:22:26 <andythenorth> I wondered that for many years
16:22:34 <Amis> It really messes up stuff
16:22:36 <andythenorth> they can tunnel out of a roadblock :P
16:22:54 <Terkhen> Amis: without that you would get impossible to solve roadblocks
16:23:14 <Amis> They can park at the first spot of a long station and block everybody behind em till they are loaded
16:23:17 <TheVal> especially when no railroad crossings have been built yet
16:23:26 <Terkhen> and either nobody worked in a better solution or there is not a better solution
16:24:12 <Doorslammer> Especially in TTO, when U turn buttons didn't exist
16:24:32 <Doorslammer> Used to have to wait for months to pass before something happened
16:25:40 <alluke> does anyone know a reason for shrinking cities?
16:26:35 <TheVal> +1 to that question...
16:26:46 <Doorslammer> Might need to change your prescription
16:28:25 <andythenorth> alluke: what date?
16:28:52 <TheVal> it's a problem with a city in our current savegame
16:28:59 <TheVal> the city went from 60k inhabitants to 6k
16:29:00 <andythenorth> I think there's a bug prior to about 1930
16:29:10 <TheVal> within around 140 years
16:29:11 <andythenorth> did you start providing good service to the city?
16:29:25 <TheVal> 3 companies are providing service
16:29:26 <V453000> how many stations do you have in the city
16:29:32 <V453000> how large is the city
16:29:36 <TheVal> 1 moment - screenshot incoming
16:29:38 <alluke> we have airports and train and bs station in there
16:29:38 <V453000> does it have enough space to grow? :)
16:29:40 <TheVal> 6000 inhabitants remaining
16:29:56 <TheVal> depending on the direction
16:29:58 <andythenorth> I think there's a bug with cities
16:30:06 <V453000> btw towns do not shrink after reaching whatever date
16:30:12 <Amis> I also noticed this strange behaviour, the game starts replacing the building with small village houses
16:30:21 <andythenorth> they rebuild because they're getting good service, but they rebuild with smaller houses
16:30:33 <andythenorth> definitely happens when playing 18xx games
16:30:41 <V453000> because the area is too far from city center
16:31:25 <TheVal> regarding the screenie that's about to follow - several villages were funded around the shrinking city in a hope to improve service
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16:33:29 <andythenorth> I'm pretty certain there is / was a bug there
16:34:03 <andythenorth> I discussed it with frosch at some length
16:34:21 <andythenorth> the buildings went away?
16:34:30 <andythenorth> or large ones replaced by small ones?
16:34:46 <TheVal> gaps opened in the city
16:34:52 <TheVal> first to smaller houses
16:34:55 <TheVal> eventually disappearing
16:35:06 <V453000> only 2 stations in centrer of the town, building spread out
16:35:29 <V453000> cant say I would expect it to be this empty, but this isnt proper service :)
16:35:46 <TheVal> It used to be bigger...
16:35:55 <TheVal> and hence better connected
16:36:21 <TheVal> speaking of griefers... you mean trolls?
16:37:01 <TheVal> My NewGRF list is so insanely complicated that only people I helped with were able to join. none of the players of this game are childish enough to destroy houses intentionally at such a scale
16:39:21 <V453000> hm, couldnt ECS do something?
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16:40:34 <planetmaker> TheVal, use NewGRFs available from online content and you have no issues with newgrf lists.
16:41:16 <V453000> and less awesome newgrfs ;(
16:42:16 <alluke> ill think i power up some cities with tind turbines and sac's power poles
16:42:48 <Amis> Eh... if this power-plant disappearing is really OpenGFX+ realted it must be fixed immediately D: All I'm doing is refunding the power plants, hehh
16:42:50 <V453000> btw what house is it next to Marteria Ost? the tall skyscraper in front of the green TTRS one (from which newGRF is it?)
16:43:33 * andythenorth didn't know towns destroyed buildings and didn't replace them
16:43:48 <alluke> found somewhere in forums
16:44:11 <V453000> andythenorth: I didnt know either
16:44:29 <TheVal> ah sorry I was afk for a moment
16:44:36 <V453000> but well, doesnt look HQ-like :)
16:44:55 <andythenorth> alluke: I'll check the HEQS - ECS issue
16:45:11 <andythenorth> I'm surprised by limestone
16:45:22 <V453000> doesnt ECS somehow influence growth of towns?
16:45:52 <andythenorth> alluke: you need to specify which liquid cargos don't refit
16:46:12 <andythenorth> and also specify the farm cargos
16:47:36 <andythenorth> HEQS farm tractors + trams have the problem? Other vehicles don't?
16:48:26 * andythenorth really hates the way of setting classes
16:48:27 <TheVal> I would likely use online content-only grfs, but the content downloader is not complete... and additionally, there's a detail about the canadian train set I dislike nowadays, a reason for which I am sticking with v0.3c
16:48:41 <andythenorth> the mask in / mask out thing is basically bollocks isn't it
16:49:20 <alluke> is there a way to edit the old text?
16:50:39 <andythenorth> if you can't use update, add a comment
16:52:30 <alluke> the update button opens new box
16:53:18 <TheVal> @alluke your iChat ain't quite open right now is it?
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17:02:11 <andythenorth> alluke: just to be clear - the issue is which cargo graphics are used?
17:03:21 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
17:05:10 <alluke> but i dont want to lay too much work on you
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17:06:09 <alluke> if i was real ass you would have to draw new graphics for many cargos
17:07:10 <alluke> like wool baled on flatbed, same for lumber, cars/tractors on flatbed, fruits in open wagon, etc
17:07:33 <andythenorth> lumber sprites exist
17:07:39 <andythenorth> the rest go covered
17:07:53 <alluke> ye i remember seeing it on the forum
17:08:02 <alluke> why didnt you include it
17:08:06 <andythenorth> cargo graphics are over-rated
17:08:14 <andythenorth> those who rate them most highly never release very much :P
17:08:36 <alluke> hm maybe just delete it?
17:08:55 <andythenorth> the issues are valid
17:09:01 <andythenorth> they'll probably get fixed sometime
17:09:09 <andythenorth> I'm happy to support ECS and other sets
17:09:12 <alluke> but id clean it up a bit
17:09:13 <andythenorth> I'm just not going to do the testing
17:09:38 <alluke> should dyes be carried in tanker or as paint cans in a box?
17:09:48 <andythenorth> I don't care either way
17:10:07 <alluke> im nice and let it be the box
17:11:27 <Amis> Excuse my confusing, but... what the heck are lickable pixels?
17:12:15 <ZirconiumX> it's a short way of saying 'that's good' or 'I like it'
17:13:14 <alluke> the list got shortened radically
17:13:14 <Doorslammer> Lick it and find out
17:13:29 <alluke> its now just change to 4 already existing sprite
17:13:30 <Doorslammer> The schnozzberries taste like schnozzberries!
17:13:46 <ZirconiumX> Doorslammer: it taste just like chicken
17:14:09 <andythenorth> Amis: I just copied it from steve jobs
17:14:09 <Doorslammer> Well that's not very special now, is it?
17:14:12 <andythenorth> it's not original
17:14:18 <Doorslammer> Give me a call when it tastes like a peanut M&M
17:14:56 <ZirconiumX> Doorslammer: nope - it's venison now
17:15:06 <alluke> andy are you able to delete or clear my current list?
17:15:41 <alluke> because itll look really stupid if i now put the changes under it
17:16:49 <Amis> developer = 1, this option in the CFG should let me change newgrfs during game?
17:17:04 <andythenorth> alluke: do you want me to bounce the ticket? You can write a new one
17:17:29 <Amis> Are there any CFGs beside the one in the user's folder?
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17:20:59 <Terkhen> I don't remember the name of the setting, but it is not "developer"
17:22:57 <andythenorth> but don't report bugs that are caused by adding / removing grfs
17:23:03 <alluke> newgrf_developer_tools = true
17:23:15 <andythenorth> misreported bugs may result in flames
17:23:38 <ZirconiumX> and/or flaming computers
17:33:21 <andythenorth> multi-tile houses (such as stadiums) can rebuild, leaving empty tiles in town...
17:33:35 <andythenorth> that might explain that issue from earlier
17:39:53 * andythenorth resumes YACD game
17:40:17 * andythenorth might need some extra ships in FISH :P
17:40:32 * andythenorth would like a pony: easier setting of timetables
17:40:33 <Zuu> andythenorth: playing a YACD game sounds fun.
17:40:39 <andythenorth> it seems to be so far
17:40:42 <andythenorth> maybe it's just new :)
17:42:00 <ZirconiumX> AHMRAATNU How many recursive acronyms andy the north uses
17:42:12 <andythenorth> only when they're easy to say :P
17:43:23 <ZirconiumX> A-HM-RAT-NU - see easy to say
17:43:51 <Zuu> It's also useful if the acronym gives an idea of what kind of set it is.
17:44:48 <ZirconiumX> besides - FISH should be FIS - FIS Is Ships - rather than FISH Is SHips
17:56:28 <Amis> Oh woah... I'm playing OpenTTD for a while and now is the first time I ever see an industry placed at sea level at generating
18:01:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there is the 24h-clock patch which has some timetabling stuff
18:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not perfect
18:01:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but it helps quite a bit
18:06:17 <alluke> we need ponies in ottd
18:06:47 <ZirconiumX> I once had a thought
18:06:51 <alluke> in all colors of rainbow
18:06:53 <SmatZ> with rainbow behind them
18:07:23 <ZirconiumX> santa was not getting enough income - so he hired himself out - sleigh and reindeer and all
18:08:04 <ZirconiumX> the only difference from christmas was the fairy light lamp saying 'Santa for hire'
18:21:05 * Zuu would like to see auto-binaries of YACD on a finger-enabled server
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18:28:57 * Zuu is trying to use hg to fetch OpenTTD for the first time
18:28:58 <ZirconiumX> yes - I know - I'm not with the times
18:29:20 <Zuu> hmm, just realized I forgot to specify which version to get.
18:31:07 <Zuu> but a "revert" should probably get me set
18:32:32 <andythenorth> or one single super hub connecting all other nodes?
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18:44:47 <Zuu> In OpenTTD I don't think the superhub will be that much benefital.
18:46:07 <Zuu> For IRL public transport system you usually calcualte experienced wait cost/time as 2 * actual wait time. In OpenTTD this cost is zero.
18:47:16 <Zuu> (this excludes the possible extra travel distance for going via a hub)
18:47:30 <andythenorth> I think a superhub will also be congested :D
18:47:39 <andythenorth> and vulnerable to breakdowns
18:49:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you can reasonably pull of a super-hub in a large map (>=512^2)
18:50:31 * andythenorth wants a link graph
18:50:39 <andythenorth> dunno what it would look like
18:51:07 <andythenorth> maybe a highlight overlay for routes with an excessive number of hops
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18:53:15 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Werrakirchen%20Transport,%2018.%20Jan%201934.png <-- this is my last CargoDist network
18:53:51 <andythenorth> what does the link graph represent in that case?
18:54:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the lines are the passanger connections, the blue squares are the passenger production
18:54:44 <andythenorth> another interesting aspect
18:54:59 <andythenorth> small towns - or just stations in the middle of nowhere - can become significant transfer hubs :)
18:55:11 * andythenorth is probably a bit too excited about YACD :P
18:55:16 <Eddi|zuHause> there are (or were, in that version) also graphs about capacity and usage
18:55:25 * andythenorth never played cargodist for a variety of reasons
18:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but they were very difficult to read and cluttered the view
18:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference between YACDest and CargoDist will only be relevant in the early game. as soon as you have a significant network, they will probably turn out with similar effects
18:57:32 <Rubidium> if you'd be covering the towns well enough that is
18:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause> this map-graph was originally from PaxDest (3?), then adapted by CargoDest and later CargoDist
19:00:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess it would be fairly easy to also integrate it into YACDest
19:00:36 <Rubidium> I'm still not sure what concept to use: destinations or distribution
19:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> let's see how it turns out during testing, the YACDest patch is fairly young ;)
19:01:18 <andythenorth> I am ill-equipped to comment - I haven't played cargodist
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19:01:41 <andythenorth> YACD appeals to me more instinctively
19:01:50 <andythenorth> I want reasons to build networks to places
19:01:59 <andythenorth> cargodist won't provide that AFAIK :)
19:02:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few reasons, but they don't punch you in the face :p
19:05:36 <Ruudjah> Towns don't build buildings on all types of tiles, do they? Specifically, tiles diagonally both vertically and horzintally?
19:05:45 *** Twerkhoven[L] has joined #openttd
19:07:13 <michi_cc> I fear a lack of updates to andy NewGRFs for the next days :)
19:08:16 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd
19:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> do any of the coop-savegames stand a chance with YACDest?
19:09:55 <SmatZ> coop games usually have one destination industry for all cargo of one type
19:10:16 <SmatZ> if the cargo was forcefully distributed to other industries, the cargo wouldn't be accepted
19:10:28 <SmatZ> coop is probably not compatible with yacd
19:13:21 <michi_cc> Depends on whether there really is only one suitable acceptor or just one served.
19:14:43 <michi_cc> But even if there are two possible accepting industries, you'll get more than half of the cargo as industries with higher production output get a higher destination weight.
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19:20:03 <andythenorth> michi_cc: it is pretty addictive so far ;)
19:20:58 <Zuu> Is there any "make bundle" for systems without gcc?
19:21:16 <Zuu> ./configure complains that I don't have gcc.
19:21:34 <SmatZ> Zuu: how do you compile without gcc?
19:22:05 <SmatZ> I don't think you are supposed to run ./configure when you are using MSVC
19:23:32 <michi_cc> Zuu: Makefile.msvc, instructions are at the start of the file
19:42:44 <andythenorth> starting a new mini-network isolated from the main network results in very low PAX numbers
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19:53:07 <michi_cc> andythenorth: What did you connect? Local network or several towns? Did you check the town/industry window if you actually get most of the possible cargo?
19:53:24 <andythenorth> I have a main network
19:53:41 <andythenorth> to which I've been adding nodes
19:53:50 <andythenorth> then I connected a few nodes locally, but not to the main network
19:54:09 <nicfer> what's the most minimalist trainset existing for openttd?
19:54:37 <andythenorth> michi_cc: it's a learning thing, not a problem
19:55:07 <michi_cc> Can you post a save? It's interesting to see how other people build.
19:57:00 <andythenorth> I have unfortunate nightly newgrf builds :P
19:57:05 <andythenorth> I can include those
19:57:29 * Rubidium silently starts coughing: paxreduction
19:58:24 <michi_cc> Are these available on the coop bundle server? Then I can download them myself.
20:01:41 <Terkhen> nicfer: the default one / opengfx+ trains
20:02:14 <nicfer> hmmm, opengfx+ doesn't add any new train
20:05:35 <frosch123> it has refittable stuff instead of single cargo wagons
20:05:44 <frosch123> maybe also some more graphics
20:10:00 <nicfer> I hate trainsets with hundreds of almost-similar trains
20:10:31 <Ammler> [22:02] <nicfer> or am I wrong? <-- yes
20:17:22 <michi_cc> andythenorth: You could get quite a bit more passengers by improving the coverage of the serviced towns (especially at Bubblebridge missing quite a lot of the demand)
20:17:38 <andythenorth> it only just allowed me to build more stations ;)
20:17:50 <andythenorth> the town was quite cross with me for a few years
20:18:15 <andythenorth> I haven't figured out RV routing yet
20:18:27 <andythenorth> full load orders seem to be ruled out in YACD
20:18:33 <andythenorth> and waiting 10 days is too much
20:18:41 <andythenorth> waiting 0 days seems to not work
20:19:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i set the wait times for trams to something low, like 1 tick, and at the end station something longer like 500 ticks, then the trams on the route stay nicely separated
20:20:23 <andythenorth> I'm trying 1 day
20:21:01 <michi_cc> Full load orders do work, but I'd only use them for cargo and not pax.
20:21:49 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. full load orders will fail with bidirectional travel
20:22:15 <Eddi|zuHause> all vehicles will wait at one side, while the other side overfills
20:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> because it's never fully symmetrical
20:22:45 * andythenorth wants a default timetable wait amount - similar to servicing default :P
20:23:12 <Terkhen> nicfer: IIRC it adds only one or two engines, but you asked for the most minimalistic set
20:23:26 <nicfer> also, I find like the original trainset lacks some things, specially MUs
20:23:49 <nicfer> and the two DMUs are useless
20:24:20 <andythenorth> michi_cc: binkyton hotel is quite a popular destination ;)
20:24:30 <nicfer> 120 km/h at 1980? is that a joke?
20:25:38 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: that's why we have newgrfs
20:25:48 <Terkhen> you seem to have contradicting goals :)
20:26:06 <nicfer> read what I've said above
20:26:22 <nicfer> neither too much trains, nor too few
20:27:22 <Terkhen> not minimalistic then... usually I only use opengfx+ trains and 2cc so I can't help you much on this
20:28:33 <nicfer> ehmm... mediumalistic?
20:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: i'm afraid with trainsets you won't find any common criteria about what is "good"
20:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why there are so many
20:29:51 <michi_cc> andythenorth: The first value of economy.cargodest.weight_scale_ind should probably be higher, or maybe I'll have to add a third value for town cargoes.
20:30:08 <andythenorth> PAX industry is an odd case
20:30:21 <andythenorth> newgrf wiki suggests it's not really something that should be done
20:30:40 <andythenorth> but I did it anyway :P
20:31:08 <Eddi|zuHause> if one had more cargo slots, all industries could accept passengers (workers)
20:31:11 <Ammler> nicfer: there are filters, so no set is too big
20:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> then also these could get bias for passengers from town
20:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (commuters make a vast majority of local traffic)
20:31:43 <Ammler> best is use every set at once
20:32:12 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: they can
20:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that's quite a hack
20:32:48 <andythenorth> but then industries also need fuel?
20:32:49 <michi_cc> It's not that much off though, production is 99 pax per month, outgoing cargo is about double. As pax is handled symmetrically (i.e for an amount A -> B, the same amount B -> A is generated) double is quite expected.
20:33:05 <andythenorth> michi_cc: I don't think it's a problem
20:33:18 <andythenorth> everyone likes a meal and a drink :
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20:34:48 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: does your patch solve the "two industries in catchment area" delivery problem?
20:35:31 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Cargo is delivered to the intended destination industry, regardless of how many other industries are in the catchment. So, yes.
20:36:07 <Eddi|zuHause> great. i think that's definitely an argument in favour of YACDest over CargoDist
20:39:24 <michi_cc> andythenorth: I would have placed Slumberbridge Docks on the coast section a bit lower as that has better coverage of the town from there.
20:46:46 <andythenorth> michi_cc: I need to start building my freight network
20:46:59 <andythenorth> I want to see if manifest trains can replace point-to-point unit trains
20:47:14 <andythenorth> but I didn't want to start too early, I think freight will lose money easily
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20:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is you can't vary cargos back-and-forth...
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20:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> and you have to define the capacities for each cargo beforehand, they can't dynamically change
21:00:22 <andythenorth> and I have 29 cargos in FIRS + mail + pax
21:00:29 <Eddi|zuHause> have i mentioned shunting yet? :p
21:01:02 <andythenorth> we also had the idea of wrapping cargo in 'containers'
21:01:10 <andythenorth> possibly limited by class
21:01:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that is probably mostly the same thing, code wise
21:02:02 <andythenorth> but visually different
21:02:06 <andythenorth> and in terms of routing
21:02:29 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: There's a different thing in the pipe before that ;)
21:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: are you actually peter1139 [wait, he incremented?] in disguise? :p
21:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking about that recently... there should be enough map bits
21:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the more railtypes you have, the more important it gets
21:07:17 <andythenorth> surely you meant 'roadtypes' :P
21:07:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for that he must reveal his disguise :p
21:09:58 * andythenorth needs a consist manager
21:10:20 <andythenorth> here's one option: MP game with paid helper (amazon turk)
21:16:54 <andythenorth> michi_cc: FIRS farms are an interesting challenge now
21:17:03 <andythenorth> they have very low production initially
21:17:25 <andythenorth> so I have amounts like 4t per month to xyz place
21:18:33 <andythenorth> routing freight is going to break my brain :D
21:32:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's why i start with fewer industries :)
21:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it'd be nice if secondary industries clustered around cities
21:32:43 <frosch123> maybe the number of destinations should be limited per industry
21:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like simutrans
21:38:38 * andythenorth is finally going to have to fix the FIRS low-cargo processing bug
21:42:22 <supermop> what are you guys talking about
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22:11:45 * Zuu wonders if he should be lucky or not for the fact that the Ginzu 'A4' steam engine got 99% reliability in his game
22:12:12 <Zuu> Nice that it have good reliability, but it will take a while before there comes an engine that is worth to upgrade to.
22:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i play without breakdowns
22:13:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and the default engines are boring. especially without wagonspeedlimits
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