IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-25
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00:51:05 <Wolf01> 'night
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05:57:32 <Terkhen> good morning
05:57:36 <Rubidium> moi
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06:28:21 <andythenorth> morningz
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07:26:10 <planetmaker> moin
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07:26:56 <planetmaker> <-- better? worse? both on some parts?
07:27:46 <planetmaker> my artist disappearch, such I have to try myself :-S
07:28:27 <andythenorth> better
07:28:42 <andythenorth> in shape
07:28:54 <planetmaker> that's why I want to re-do them
07:28:56 <andythenorth> texture could use...more love
07:28:59 <planetmaker> the current shap is ugly
07:29:21 <planetmaker> he, I feared that answer ;-)
07:29:36 <planetmaker> Even though every pixel is hand-crafted
07:30:22 <planetmaker> any idea how to improve it?
07:30:49 <Zuu> In the "new" picture, there is a tree in the way to see how the far end looks like in the transition to flat land (with tunnel below)
07:30:59 <Rubidium> maybe you should try to draw the rail and tunnel roof sloping down towards the middle of the tunnel. That way you could keep a bit of green at the top of the tunnel, I think... and then the very short tunnels might not look that badly aligned anymore
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07:37:41 <planetmaker> updated, Zuu
07:38:43 <Zuu> planetmaker: The tunnel?
07:38:51 <planetmaker> the image
07:38:55 <Zuu> I've lost track of where I found that topic
07:38:59 <planetmaker> I'm not a quick drawer
07:39:19 <planetmaker> hm... painter. whatever :-P
07:39:44 <Zuu> Oh, it wasn't a topic - it was from here in IRC :-)
07:40:04 <planetmaker> :-P
07:40:13 <planetmaker> have another coffee ;-)
07:47:57 <Zuu> haven't had a single one yet
07:48:11 <planetmaker> he
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08:20:47 <Zuu> Hmm, so coffe in the sun on the balcony :-)
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08:21:19 <kamnet> Good morning all
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08:22:12 <Alberth> hi kamnet
08:23:41 <kamnet> How is everybody?
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08:24:20 <planetmaker> moin all together :-)
08:24:45 <planetmaker> sun and balcony and coffee.... good choice. I'll be there, too, in a minute ;-)
08:25:09 <kamnet> Lucky you. It's been nothing but severe thunderstorms and tornadoes here all weekend.
08:25:16 <Zuu> planetmaker: Just figured out you also have one in south :-)
08:25:57 <planetmaker> yup. And you could even know it ;-)
08:26:55 <planetmaker> but it wasn't big enough for us all to have breakfast there back then
08:29:39 <kamnet> The rain from Spain falls mainly in Kentucky using 600 gallon buckets.
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08:52:22 <Mazur> Good
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09:21:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: morning
09:21:32 <ZirconiumX> hello all
09:21:38 <ZirconiumX> hello andythenorth
09:21:49 <ZirconiumX> sorry about yesterday
09:22:19 <Alberth> moin andythenorth
09:22:26 <Alberth> hello ZirconiumX
09:22:52 <ZirconiumX> hello Alberth - er I mean sir
09:23:00 <Alberth> ZirconiumX: it's ok, we all make mistakes
09:23:23 <andythenorth> ZirconiumX: you know that site's satire?
09:24:03 <ZirconiumX> nope
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09:24:27 <ZirconiumX> anyway - can we just leave that topic - I've said sorry
09:24:41 * ZirconiumX dicides to change the topic
09:24:54 <ZirconiumX> s/dicides/decides
09:25:20 <ZirconiumX> D* does appear to be faster than A*
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09:25:46 * ZirconiumX knows this - he made a 'course' for 4 algorithms
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09:27:13 <ZirconiumX> A* got a path in 21 iterations, Djikstra's got a unique path in 21 iterations, Felicitus' unusual pathfinder got a path in 24 iterations, and D* lite) got a path in 14
09:27:48 <k-man> how big does a town have to be to accept goods?
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09:28:23 <ZirconiumX> k-man - I'd say around the 1,000 mark
09:28:35 <k-man> thanks ZirconiumX
09:28:37 <ZirconiumX> but - I'm a noob
09:28:50 * ZirconiumX checks the wiki
09:28:55 <k-man> and I put a station on the edge of a large town, but it does not seem to accept goods
09:28:58 <k-man> is that normal
09:28:59 <k-man> ?
09:29:16 <andythenorth> k-man: there's no fixed size
09:29:17 <ZirconiumX> it has to be near the center of the town
09:29:21 <andythenorth> depends on the buildings in the town
09:29:40 <ZirconiumX> ty andythenorth
09:32:10 <k-man> thanks
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09:33:14 <planetmaker> k-man: you can check what each house accepts. It goes in steps of 1/8. A station accepts a cargo if there's at least 8/8 acceptance in its covered area
09:33:46 <k-man> how do I check? click on the house?
09:34:01 <planetmaker> query tool. the ? in the main toolbar
09:34:13 <ZirconiumX> and then click on the house
09:35:02 <planetmaker> (right most icon)
09:36:26 <k-man> so do I need a total of 8/8 goods (sum of multiple houses?) or one house that has 8/8?
09:37:34 <planetmaker> total of many houses is sufficient
09:37:56 <k-man> thanks planetmaker
09:38:01 <planetmaker> mind that houses change, though
09:38:19 <planetmaker> so you want actually a bit more in order to be sure the station keeps accepting goods
09:38:55 <andythenorth> or use FIRS :P
09:39:17 <Alberth> I normally hover with a station over the town, and watch what is accepted
09:40:19 <k-man> Alberth, ah, interesting, thanks
09:40:56 <planetmaker> so do I :-)
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09:42:41 <k-man> FIRS?
09:42:44 <k-man> what is firs?
09:43:43 <planetmaker> a newgrf. But IMHO it doesn't solve your problem ;-)
09:43:47 <andythenorth> nope
09:44:41 <planetmaker> it's part of my favourite newgrfs, but it's not a newgrf a beginner should start with
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09:45:07 <andythenorth> "FIRS - Beginner's Edition" ?
09:45:14 <andythenorth> :P
09:45:17 <andythenorth> nah
09:45:24 <V453000> :D
09:45:31 <planetmaker> still missing, aka know 'economies' :-P
09:45:31 <andythenorth> FIRS is what you do *after* you've played all default climates && PBI
09:45:53 <andythenorth> FIRS is to stop the game getting boring when you've exhausted other options
09:46:07 <ZirconiumX> FIRS is a bunch of trees
09:46:16 <ZirconiumX> :p
09:46:17 * V453000 doesnt feel like the game is getting boring ;)
09:47:46 * andythenorth ponders redrawing textile mill a bit more
09:50:45 <Mazur> Windmills would be nice as secondary industries.
09:50:52 <Mazur> Pretty.
09:52:56 <andythenorth> Mazur: there's one in FIRS
09:53:03 <Mazur> Cutting wood, grinding wheat, pumping water... Used to be 21 functions for them.
09:53:13 <andythenorth> the FIRS one mills grain
09:53:14 <Mazur> Yes, a modern one.
09:53:43 <Mazur> Oh, have not seen that one yet.
09:53:50 <Mazur> :-)))
09:54:32 <Mazur> I guess V would be happy with a malt-mill.
09:54:36 <andythenorth>
09:55:59 <Alberth> andythenorth: hmm, I seem to have skipped the PBI step
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09:57:21 <Mazur> A square windmill.
09:57:26 <Mazur> How quaint.
10:00:10 <Alberth> wind in OpenTTD comes from just one direction
10:00:39 <Mazur> That would be helpful.
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10:04:40 <andythenorth> we ignore the question of how it turns :P
10:06:07 <andythenorth> presumably the top bit rotates
10:06:20 <Terkhen> magic
10:06:49 <andythenorth> maybe a little redrawing is needed :)
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10:09:43 <planetmaker> Alberth: did you ever look at the wind direction(s)?
10:09:52 <planetmaker> it comes from about 3 or 4 different directions actually
10:10:00 <planetmaker> depending on which graphics you look at
10:10:13 <planetmaker> smoke. wind sock, water are just three different ones ;-)
10:10:33 <planetmaker> iirc there are one or two more, but I don't recall
10:10:40 <andythenorth> flag somewhere?
10:10:41 <andythenorth> hq?
10:10:45 <planetmaker> possibly
10:10:58 <Alberth> around trains there is no wind at all :)
10:11:05 <Alberth> +steam
10:11:09 <planetmaker> smoke ^
10:11:29 <andythenorth> now I have to draw a round windmill :(
10:11:41 <Mazur> /usr/local/games/autostart/ In member function ‘virtual EventState MainWindow::OnKeyPress(uint16, uint16)’:
10:11:41 <Mazur> /usr/local/games/autostart/ error: ‘PlaceLandBlockInfo’ was not declared in this scope
10:12:03 <Mazur> Rather unexpected.
10:12:10 <Alberth> smoke does not stay over the train if the wind comes from one side
10:12:56 <planetmaker> Mazur: tried make clean && make ?
10:13:33 <Mazur> It was a clean co, no patches, with (auto-)start
10:13:42 <Alberth> andythenorth:
10:13:47 <Mazur> Had completely removed the old directory to ensure that.
10:13:52 <planetmaker> autostart only updates, doesn't necessarily clean
10:14:00 <planetmaker> ok
10:14:11 <Mazur> It will be clean if the target directory is missing.
10:14:40 <Alberth> rerun ./configure ?
10:15:14 <andythenorth> yeah, I can convert it to post mill maybe
10:15:16 <Mazur> No change.
10:15:32 <planetmaker> does a post mill grind mail into pulp?
10:16:01 <Alberth> mail is one form of paper :)
10:16:21 <Mazur> frequently polluted with plastic.
10:16:48 <Alberth> Mazur: so where did PlaceLandBlockInfo go?
10:16:55 <Mazur> I do not know.
10:17:25 <Mazur> I only know the checkout will not compile as is.
10:17:40 <Mazur> On linux.
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10:17:54 <Mazur> Linux quad #1 SMP Thu Feb 17 15:00:46 UTC 2011 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
10:19:25 <Mazur> toolbar_gui.cpp:static CallBackFunction PlaceLandBlockInfo()
10:19:46 <Mazur> I suppose that is the function itself.
10:20:33 <SmatZ> Mazur: boooh
10:20:44 <SmatZ> Mazur: how did you configure?
10:20:47 <Alberth> static :)
10:20:54 <SmatZ> aha
10:21:12 <SmatZ> interesting
10:21:12 <Mazur> I did not configure anything spoecial: ./configure
10:21:20 <Mazur> -o
10:21:55 <SmatZ> can you paste config.cache somewhere?
10:21:57 <SmatZ> brb
10:22:02 <Alberth> static functions are not visible outside their own .cpp file, that's why it cannot be found from main_gui.cpp
10:22:14 <Terkhen> is it vanilla or patched?
10:22:26 * Alberth bets patched
10:23:09 <Mazur> vanilla
10:23:21 * Mazur collects,
10:23:29 <Mazur> :-D
10:24:19 <Mazur> If it was patched I would not be talking here.
10:24:49 <Mazur> I would firest give myself a "pets" and unpatch it.
10:25:03 <Mazur> -e
10:26:07 <Mazur> Just check your own toolbar_gui.cpp (for patches, too.
10:26:09 <Mazur> )
10:27:16 <Mazur> Or better yet, check the one in trunk.
10:27:27 <k-man> is it best to have a train waiting for production? or let a station fill up before a train arrives?
10:28:05 <Mazur> Depends on what you define as "best"./
10:28:33 <Alberth> Mazur: in r22375, there is no PlaceLandBlockInfo() outside toolbar_gui.cpp
10:28:51 * SmatZ grepped with the same result
10:29:08 <Terkhen> and I can compile r22375 without problems
10:29:14 <Mazur> case 'G':
10:29:14 <Mazur> PlaceLandBlockInfo();
10:29:14 <Mazur> break;
10:29:16 <SmatZ> case GHK_CHAT: // smart chat; send to team if any, otherwise to all
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10:29:34 <SmatZ> Mazur: you have very outdated checkout, it seems
10:29:37 <Alberth> ^ that line is #378 in main_gui.cpp, trunk
10:29:45 <SmatZ> like, one without hotkeys
10:30:01 <SmatZ> Mazur: are you sure it's r22375?
10:30:13 <SmatZ> eg. svn info src/main_gui.cpp
10:30:17 <Mazur> svn co -r r22375 svn://
10:30:34 * andythenorth is sad about windmills :|
10:30:56 <andythenorth> needs to be round or octagonal, with a tapering (conical) profile
10:31:01 <Terkhen> Mazur: what is the output of svn status?
10:31:47 <Mazur> Path: src/main_gui.cpp
10:31:47 <Mazur> Name: main_gui.cpp
10:31:47 <Mazur> URL: svn://
10:31:47 <Mazur> Repository Root: svn://
10:31:47 <Mazur> Repository UUID: 6aa0318a-3be1-0310-93fa-89fd2396df07
10:31:48 <Mazur> Revision: 22375
10:31:50 <Mazur> Node Kind: file
10:31:52 <Mazur> Schedule: normal
10:31:54 <Mazur> Last Changed Author: rubidium
10:31:56 <Mazur> Last Changed Rev: 22362
10:31:56 <k-man> Mazur, is there a down side to not having a train waiting at all times at a station?
10:31:58 <Mazur> Last Changed Date: 2011-04-22 17:54:16 +0200 (Fri, 22 Apr 2011)
10:32:01 *** Mazur was kicked by SmatZ (User terminated!)
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10:32:06 <Mazur> Text Last Updated: 2011-04-25 12:30:50 +0200 (Mon, 25 Apr 2011)
10:32:08 <Mazur> Checksum: 3e755bda0948e30429e2e9892d69dd35
10:32:10 <SmatZ> Mazur: use paste service
10:32:14 <Mazur> Sorry.
10:33:24 <SmatZ> [12:30:17] <Mazur> svn co -r r22375 svn://
10:33:32 <SmatZ> I executed that, and got correct checkout
10:33:47 <k-man> how can I convince a town to let me build a station?
10:33:49 <SmatZ> maybe you are compiling in a different directory
10:34:00 <Mazur> Looking into that, SmatZ.
10:34:09 <SmatZ> k-man: bribe it, or better try building trees to increase town rating
10:34:24 <SmatZ> k-man:
10:35:15 <Mazur> Clean compile outside of autostart.
10:35:26 <Mazur> Thank you all for your help.
10:35:38 <Mazur> I'll go figure what went wrtong there and fix it.
10:35:41 <SmatZ> :-)
10:35:55 <k-man> SmatZ, thanks, can I see my rating somehow?
10:37:06 <SmatZ> k-man: click on the town label, click "Local authority"
10:37:20 <SmatZ> the rating of your company will be shown in the newly opened window
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10:37:46 <k-man> oh - appaling! hehe
10:37:52 <k-man> no wonder they won't let me build
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10:49:05 <Zuu> k-man: If you don't have a train waiting at the station, the cargo wait time at the station will not be counted towards transport time.
10:49:24 <Zuu> Also you will probably need less vehicles/trains etc. => more profit.
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10:49:46 <Zuu> However, your station rating can drop.
10:49:55 <planetmaker> which could mean less profit ;-)
10:50:06 <Zuu> As you get less cargo.
10:50:15 <Wolf01> hello
10:50:43 <Zuu> But it also quite depend (I think) on if you have monopoly or if you compete with another player on the same cargo.
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11:03:00 <k-man> what are the keys for lowering or raising the ground?
11:03:13 <Alberth> q and w
11:03:14 <planetmaker> on the keyboard
11:03:16 <Markk> e and w
11:03:17 <Markk> Oh
11:03:18 <Markk> q
11:03:35 <planetmaker> hm... what != where. Damn. Fail
11:03:50 <planetmaker> I need coffee
11:03:54 <Zuu> hehe
11:04:42 * planetmaker goes makes tea ;-)
11:05:03 <Alberth> green tea is just as good :)
11:05:14 <k-man> thanks
11:05:19 <Zuu> I really never learnt the up/down keys, so I just press some keys at the bottom row untill I find it :-)
11:05:19 <planetmaker> I guess I'll have a Darjeeling
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11:06:19 * Zuu got some real chinese green tea - didn't like it very much
11:06:49 <Zuu> Some of the western green teas are okay though.
11:07:10 <k-man> its been so long since I played openttd - but its all coming back to me now
11:07:22 * planetmaker just got the idea to add the actual shortcut key to the tooltips
11:07:43 * planetmaker also got Japanese green tea
11:07:57 * Zuu remembers an idea he though of last night
11:08:28 <Zuu> Put the transparency options in advanced settings, and add hotkeys to bring up the advanced settings with a specific category unfolded.
11:09:03 <planetmaker> that window IMHO is too big
11:09:16 <Zuu> It might need some work though to get the transparency settings in advanced settings as the structure is quite different.
11:09:41 <Zuu> But it might end up being just too much work.
11:10:16 <planetmaker> logically they c/should go there IMHO
11:10:24 <Zuu> Though the idea to add the ability to define hotkeys for opening specific sections in the advanced settings might be interesting still.
11:10:45 <planetmaker> yep, true
11:11:51 <Alberth> the 'full details' and 'full animation' can safely go to adv settings, you never need them during the game
11:12:01 <Alberth> the other ones change too often imho
11:13:23 <Zuu> Sounds okay to me.
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11:21:52 <andythenorth> I would leave most of transparency gui untouched apart from extra options
11:22:00 <andythenorth> e.g. station signs etc
11:26:21 <Ammler> [13:12] <Alberth> the other ones change too often imho <-- you do, if your cpu usage rises, those are the first you disable, aren't?
11:27:14 <Ammler> ah well, quoted the wrong line :-)
11:28:52 <Alberth> I switch of full animation immediately because it annoys me, and full details never
11:29:25 <Alberth> and I never have trouble with my CPU other than during a compile :)
11:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: but changing once during the game is "not often"
11:30:06 <k-man> how do you turn off new vehicle notifications?
11:30:41 <Alberth> news paper or offers?
11:30:53 <andythenorth> can someone actually test whether full animation affects CPU?
11:30:55 <Eddi|zuHause> k-man: the blue window can't be disabled, and the newspaper can be disabled in the news settings (click and hold the newspaper icon)
11:33:21 <andythenorth> ok
11:33:33 <andythenorth> in my unscientific test, full animation makes more difference than I expected
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11:34:24 <andythenorth> it's about 5% if there is a large body of water on the screen
11:34:37 <andythenorth> and about 2% if there is nothing with a colour cycle
11:34:49 <andythenorth> the actual % varies by window size I think
11:35:16 <andythenorth> my openttd is currently using 19% cpu if full animation is turned off
11:35:29 <k-man> Eddi|zuHause, thanks
11:35:37 <k-man> how do you make a co-op game?
11:36:01 <Eddi|zuHause> k-man: one starts a multiplayer game, and the other joins the same company
11:36:50 <andythenorth> full detail appears to make no difference to cpu usage
11:37:23 <andythenorth> none of them cause the game to run appreciably slower or faster
11:37:35 <andythenorth> and the measure for turning them off should be performance, not cpu usage
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11:37:45 <k-man> thanks Eddi|zuHause
11:37:47 <k-man> seems good
11:37:51 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: but it is something you need direct access
11:38:02 <andythenorth> Ammler: nah not really
11:38:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: why?
11:38:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: when they are client settings, you can set them from the main menu, and won't be changed when loading a game
11:39:13 <Ammler> if cpu usage is at 100%, it would be not that easy to navigate through 100 windows to disable those
11:39:54 <andythenorth> Ammler: on my OS, you get a bigger change from resizing the window
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11:40:33 <andythenorth> if 'full animation' is some kind of important panic button setting, I think there are problems
11:40:51 <Ammler> why else do you disable it?
11:41:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: sometimes it's just annoying
11:41:12 <andythenorth> because you have visual field disturbance from changing pixels?
11:41:16 <andythenorth> matter of taste?
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11:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. when some NuTracks coder failed to replace the proper pixels, and the houses just start flickering...
11:42:23 <andythenorth> make it an advanced setting :P
11:42:24 <Ammler> hehe, maybe it needs a settings, where the settings should be displayed :-)
11:42:28 <andythenorth> yes
11:42:33 <andythenorth> 'configure everything'
11:42:38 <andythenorth> ideally with xml :P
11:42:38 <Ammler> hmm, not a worst idea, a kind of "favorite settings"
11:42:42 <andythenorth> everyone can make their own menus
11:42:45 <andythenorth> forget design
11:42:50 <andythenorth> let the users do it
11:43:14 <andythenorth> add an 'interfaces' category to bananas
11:43:37 <Ammler> you don't need to share it
11:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: like i said, when making full animation a proper setting, you can change it from the main menu before loading the game. you can't do that in the current form
11:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that's (imho) a better solution than "panic button" style...
11:44:20 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: that is for people who disable it because they don't like it
11:44:35 <Ammler> I speak for the people who disable it because of cpu usage :-)
11:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: you either know that you are loading a potentially dangerous game before hand, or you get thrown out of multiplayer, or you can hit the pause button
11:45:10 <Ammler> and those disable it after they joined a MP game for example
11:45:15 <andythenorth> what the game really needs is a lolcat generator
11:45:20 <andythenorth> it won't succeed without lulz
11:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: in any case, you have plenty of time to change the settings then
11:45:38 <andythenorth> if we just added all this stuff, openttd might actually succeed
11:45:46 * andythenorth goes back to drawing windmills
11:45:54 * andythenorth might tilt at them even
11:45:54 <Ammler> If you get kicked, disabling it wouldn't allow to join again, I would guess
11:46:04 <Ammler> not that much influence
11:46:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: why not? you're not banned or anything
11:46:52 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: if you get a kick because you cpu doesn't catch up
11:46:52 <andythenorth> hmm
11:46:58 <andythenorth> you can't pause on MP either
11:47:00 <andythenorth> I see the point
11:47:06 <andythenorth> leave it where it is?
11:47:18 <Ammler> you have _real_ cpu issues, which disabling those wouldn't help, imo
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11:47:48 * andythenorth thinks leave it
11:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: if 102% or 98% doesn't make a difference, then i don't see the point
11:48:20 <Ammler> andythenorth: better move them and allow "favorite settings" :-P
11:48:25 <andythenorth> that menu needs some stuff in it, or newbies won't think it's a proper game
11:49:18 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: I would rather think around 80-90%
11:49:29 <Ammler> where you get some laggs sometimes
11:49:36 <andythenorth> a bigger CPU change would come from 'select all ships, send to depot, scrap'
11:50:17 <Ammler> andythenorth: those are next steps or rising pbs time
11:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: but at that point you can do 4 clicks instead of 2...
11:50:35 <andythenorth> make it a hotkey
11:50:43 <andythenorth> if you care enough
11:51:20 <Ammler> a hotkey gui would be nice
11:51:56 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: true
11:52:26 <Ammler> the issue is just, if you hide it in the adv. settings menu, you don't change those anymore
11:54:34 <k-man> so with the new path signals, when do you use those?
11:54:35 <Ammler> speaking about cpu usage, you can also remove the "performance hint" on station spread, which is quite useless anymore
11:56:27 <michi_cc> fonsinchen: Got a reply to your post. And regarding the date of some commits, yes, I did a first try back in 2009, but I maneuvered myself into a dead end back then and abandoned the idea for quite some time. On the next try, I salvaged what seemed useful from that attempt, which is why some commits have such an old time stamp.
11:56:58 <fonsinchen> I see.
11:57:05 <michi_cc> fonsinchen: That second attempt wasn't really what I wanted either :) so YACD is actually try number 3.
11:57:51 <fonsinchen> It might have been interesting to talk about it anyway. You could have saved me a lot of work.
11:58:16 <fonsinchen> Your routing algorithm is in fact better than mine.
11:58:39 <fonsinchen> No measuring of capacities, near instant reaction to changes. Nice, really...
11:59:05 <michi_cc> Your automatic order stuff came in just at the right time as I was pondering how to identify route links for non non-stop orders, so thanks for that :)
12:00:18 <fonsinchen> I guess there are some corner cases where one could trick it into failing. After all there is a reason why people have spent so much time trying to solve the multi-commodity flow problem.
12:00:35 <fonsinchen> However, I can't find any right now.
12:01:24 <michi_cc> What I was really struggling with was the destination generation algorithm, where I had the right idea not that far back, where you'd already done most of the work on cargodist. Before that, there wasn't much more than "somehow have fixed destinations and do something with YAPF for routing" to talk about :)
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12:08:05 <k-man> is there some way in a co-op game to cheat and get more money?
12:09:56 <Ammler> setup aircraft route with 1/1 spead
12:10:03 <Ammler> speed*
12:11:23 <planetmaker> k-man: in multiplayer you cannot cheat. Not at all
12:11:35 <k-man> ok, thanks
12:13:13 <Ammler> (I consider the aircraft route as cheat ;-)
12:13:48 <Ammler> 2 airports gives you more money already as you are able to build
12:14:55 <Ammler> (
12:15:01 <SpComb> how much do cd and yacd differ in terms of a) generating cargo packets with some destination b) getting those cargo packets to the destinations?
12:16:50 <Alberth> k-man: path signals are useful if you want to allow several trains in a block, eg at station entrances
12:18:00 <k-man> Alberth, but you don't use them everywhere right? just at that entrance?
12:18:16 <k-man> for long runs along the track, you still use normal signals?
12:19:55 * andythenorth uses path signals everywhere
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12:21:03 <Terkhen> I use path signals on crossings and junctions, normal signals everywhere else
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12:24:10 <michi_cc> SpComb: Much. Cargodist doesn't generate destinations, it "just" distributes the cargo over all traveled routes. YACD on the other does generate fixed destinations, but doesn't really distribute the cargo between all routes but will only use those that actually lead to the destination.
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12:25:15 <SpComb> yeah, I recalled cd was fairly dynamic about where cargo wanted to go
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12:30:47 <planetmaker> Hehe. Pathzilla complains that there are no vehicles which transport old or diamonds. It is correct ;-)
12:31:30 <planetmaker> but it probably would have sufficed to not notice that for every mine, but for each cargo only once.
12:31:40 <planetmaker> or rather s/mine/route/
12:31:57 <planetmaker> ^ Zuu
12:34:06 <Zuu> I didn't write Pathzilla, that was zutty
12:34:20 <planetmaker> oh, sorry :-)
12:35:04 <andythenorth> drawing octagonal sloping things is...challenge
12:35:18 <Zuu> Though it would have been nice if I would have made Pathzilla as it is nice to see when people apply optimization/planning ideas in an AI. :-)
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12:37:49 <planetmaker> :-)
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12:41:29 <planetmaker> well, CluelessPlus is doing bus services well :-)
12:42:35 <planetmaker> but it really could do with the other modes of transport :-)
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12:43:46 <andythenorth> new windmill - upper part is unshaded
12:44:27 <andythenorth> old for comparison...
12:44:27 <planetmaker> those who are (currently, after 6 years) more profitable also use planes. I guess the one train of AdmiralAI does not make most of its profit
12:45:35 <planetmaker> is there an option to add ever so slightly more noise to its 'tower', andythenorth ?
12:45:41 <planetmaker> The design of the new is much nicer
12:46:05 <Alberth> a 'zzoeff' sound :)
12:47:54 <Belugas> hello
12:48:27 <andythenorth> planetmaker: 'unshaded' ;)
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12:58:45 <Terkhen> andythenorth: what model are you using?
13:01:01 <planetmaker> :-) NoCAB just build a ship route for wood over 1/4 of the map :-) And it works nicely
13:01:53 <planetmaker> though TransAI's hover crafts with passengers are 2.5 x as profitable...
13:02:18 <k-man> what is near end/far end/middle in the orders?
13:04:15 <planetmaker> try it. It's obvious :-)
13:04:24 <planetmaker> but not really important
13:04:36 <planetmaker> the place within a (larger) station where the train stops
13:05:07 <k-man> oh, I see, thanks
13:08:21 <planetmaker> hehe. AdmiralAI built a road route over my coast tile test area...
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13:16:00 <LordAro> planetmaker: are you testing aroai also? ;)
13:18:38 <planetmaker> It's currently not active. But I guess I could add that to the list as well. I recently removed a few which crashed too often or which spammed my console with pointless un-caught exceptions
13:20:07 <planetmaker> But I don't quite remember which those were.
13:20:14 <LordAro> crashed too often? not aroai i hope... :)
13:23:00 <planetmaker> I added it to my default list now, so it will be used the next game(s) I start
13:23:11 <planetmaker> which I do a lot for testing newgrfs
13:23:27 <planetmaker> and AIs just have a chance to use them concurrently
13:23:42 <planetmaker> and to do the work for me to build things ;-)
13:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> something i noticed, but didn't test in trunk yet: when using railtypes grf, and turning bridges invisible, the railtype overlay over the bridge gets transparent, not invisible
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13:42:50 <LordAro> planetmaker: :)
13:42:54 <LordAro> ty
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13:45:36 <planetmaker> yes, that's the case, Eddi|zuHause
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13:46:32 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, it's kinda inconsistent
13:46:49 <k-man> is there some way to see which stations have the most product waiting at them? ie, underserviced stations
13:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: also while at it: tram catenary stays visible
13:47:26 <Alberth> k-man in the main gui toolbar, you can get a list of stations
13:47:34 <Alberth> you can sort on rating or so
13:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (rail catenary as well)
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13:51:17 <k-man> thanks Alberth
13:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause> cargo value
13:51:36 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but they have their own setting, the catenary
13:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how that is calculated...
13:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but bridge invisibility should override catenary visibility on bridge
13:53:19 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone got a station rating grf yet?
13:53:52 <Terkhen> I don't know any
14:02:49 <planetmaker> nor do I know
14:03:40 <Terkhen> what changes to station rating could be interesting?
14:04:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: most annoying is the "must have always a train waiting". imho "a train every 30 days" should yield no lower than 50% rating
14:04:40 <Terkhen> sounds logical
14:04:56 <Eddi|zuHause> other people want the speed influence disabled
14:05:00 <Terkhen> I usually don't pay much attention to ratings :)
14:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: they kinda get important when cargo disappears at a transfer station :)
14:06:28 <Terkhen> hmm... if callbacks weren't so complicated I would take a look at it for ogfx+ industries
14:06:45 <Terkhen> but I'm already quite confused with custom chains :P
14:06:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i might get annoyed enough to try myself
14:06:53 <LordAro> question: with mercurial queues, whats the easiest/best way to update trunk?
14:07:14 <Terkhen> hg qpop -a && hg fetch
14:07:27 <Terkhen> then you push each patch and check if there are rejects
14:08:25 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: that would be a welcome patch for opengfx+ industries :)
14:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: i think it warrants a separate grf
14:11:42 <LordAro> Terkhen: before or after doing hg pull/update?
14:11:52 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: ok
14:11:57 <Terkhen> LordAro: depends
14:12:28 <Terkhen> I always keep an untouched clone of trunk and clone it for my queue repos
14:12:40 <LordAro> what does hg fetch do, exactly?
14:12:48 <Terkhen> more or less "hg pull -u"
14:13:25 <Terkhen> you need to activate it as an extension, though
14:13:28 <Terkhen> so just use hg pull -u
14:13:48 <LordAro> i see, thanks
14:14:12 <LordAro> and yes, i need to get into the habit of cloning more - i started with svn, you see :)
14:15:17 <LordAro> s/started/started coding/
14:15:44 <Terkhen> I did the same with svn; I copied my clean checkout whenever I wanted to code something different
14:16:51 <Alberth> I started doing bzr to make such copies :)
14:17:57 * LordAro reorganises his checkouts/clones
14:18:45 <Alberth> have one clone that pulls from, and use that to make local clones
14:18:52 <k-man> how do you close all windows?
14:18:58 <Alberth> delete button
14:19:05 <Alberth> euhm, backspace
14:19:12 <k-man> on osx
14:19:20 <k-man> fn-delete
14:19:22 <k-man> thanks
14:19:25 <Alberth> install linux :p
14:20:23 <Alberth> k-man: it is not entirely 'all windows', if you pinned them, they will stay
14:21:03 <Alberth> and there are a few ones that always stay, like the main gui toolbar, and the main gui :)
14:23:10 <LordAro> :)
14:26:06 <k-man> thanks, Alberth
14:26:17 <k-man> anyway, time for bed, thanks all for your help
14:26:21 <Alberth> bye
14:26:30 <Alberth> LordAro: how is the readme going?
14:27:14 <LordAro> sort of stalled, i got into 32bp again :)
14:27:31 <LordAro> ...and my exams start in about 3 weeks,. :(
14:28:54 <Alberth> so 2 months at least
14:30:32 <LordAro> afraid so :(
14:30:47 <LordAro> won't stop you from working on it though :P
14:31:30 <Alberth> If I start, it'd be finished in a week :)
14:32:06 <Alberth> as long as you finish before 1.2 :)
14:32:38 <Alberth> if you decide to quit, please let me know
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14:35:07 <LordAro> :)
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14:45:39 <Ammler> Alberth: what you expect from a readme, not in describtion or parameter gui?
14:48:03 <Ammler> I mean, if you think it further, there is no need for ingame readme viewer anymore...
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14:49:03 <Ammler> rather show the readme on webstite bananas
14:49:04 <Alberth> section 3, 4, 6, 7 ?
14:49:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: a readme can have vital information like the DBSetXL readme on how to assemble certain trains, or information about "realism"
14:50:00 <Alberth> Ammler: not everybody has a live internet connection all the time
14:50:19 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: yes, next step is making a html viewer, and then pdf viewer?
14:50:24 <planetmaker> like "get 2nd gen only when wagon speed limits is enabled" :-P
14:50:35 <planetmaker> I wonder whether I EVER saw the 2nd gen dbset wagons
14:50:43 <planetmaker> must be years ago
14:51:30 <Ammler> Alberth: the readme can be viewed with your favorite viewer, where you also can click a link etc.
14:51:32 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: technically it's the 3rd gen. and it was fine until openttd implemented wagon lifetime :p
14:51:50 <Ammler> a openttd readme viewer is only useable if you get there :-)
14:51:59 <Eddi|zuHause> then the nasty bug turned up where the old wagons disappear, but the new ones don't appear
14:52:17 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: well... but you can still have 'vehicles never expire', or how does that work there?
14:52:21 <Ammler> and c&p or links is a nono in openttd, afaik
14:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, that should work
14:52:49 <Alberth> Ammler: you overestimate that people know where the data is stored, know they need a tar file, know how to open a tar file, know how to start a reader
14:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but the dbset readme also recommends to turn that off :p
14:53:02 <planetmaker> as long as we don't have a proper-length day length, there's no fun in having vehicles expire ;-)
14:53:09 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: of course
14:53:20 <Ammler> Alberth: for the others, just expand the description field
14:53:41 <planetmaker> I should not comment on things like having the newgrf behave differently with vehicle availability as a function on settings like wagon lifetime or wagon speed limits ;-)
14:53:49 <Alberth> but the window is already too big
14:53:52 <Ammler> maybe also a seperate license and credits field
14:53:58 <planetmaker> but it's just broken by design to handle these
14:54:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well the idea is that the other wagons are just redundant without speed limit, as it's the only difference
14:54:43 <Alberth> Ammler: is that info even in the newgrf?
14:54:53 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: even then :-) They look different which might be reason enough
14:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: only a few look different
14:55:12 <planetmaker> and possibly different capacity
14:55:15 <planetmaker> or not?
14:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause> no, capacity is the same
14:55:29 <Ammler> well, but it should in that case not be a readme viewer, just an additional info file viewer, maybe configureable with action14
14:55:32 <planetmaker> he, then 15t is not much
14:55:45 <Ammler> else you have some infos double, specially the part about parameters
14:55:54 <Ammler> or links
14:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: 15t is only the _very_ first vehicles, the next ones do show up even without speedlimits
14:56:26 <planetmaker> ah, ok :-)
14:56:36 <planetmaker> I guess I didn't play with that set for a looong time
14:56:38 <Ammler> lazy authors can still define the readme as info file
14:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause> they have 25t (wood, steel), 30t (oil, goods) and 40t (coal, ore) capacity
14:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: an action14-readme-extension and grfcodec spits out a .html file?
14:58:27 <Ammler> [16:54] <Alberth> Ammler: is that info even in the newgrf? <-- could be added as a14?
14:58:42 <Eddi|zuHause> grfdoc
14:58:53 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: imo, everything openttd shows should/could be part of the newgrf
14:58:58 <Ammler> no file viewer at all
14:59:21 <Ammler> if not with a8, then with 114
14:59:24 <Ammler> a14*
14:59:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: but as a grf author having info on a webpage independent from the grf would be useful
14:59:49 <Ammler> yep, so you want a html viewer?
15:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. if i offer my grf on a website for download, having an additional readme website
15:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and there still are ttdpatch users
15:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> who wouldn't get to the builtin readme
15:00:29 <planetmaker> those can also read a readme.txt
15:00:42 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but then i have two files
15:00:46 <Ammler> yes, but the readme does repeat infos also already in the grf, like title and parameters
15:00:55 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: which have to be kept up to date separately
15:01:15 <Ammler> so this should not be part of the file showed in the readme, so you still neeed to maintain 2 different files
15:01:35 <Ammler> then you cuold as good add those to the newgrf itself
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15:02:52 <Ammler> I would not like FIRS removing parameter description from readme just to avoid that
15:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that's why i suggested autogenerating a .html file from the grf-doc
15:03:49 <Ammler> sounds nice
15:03:58 <Alberth> we can do a search for info.txt first or whatever
15:04:10 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: or simple using rst
15:04:24 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: just copy the file out of the .tar
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15:04:45 <Alberth> Ammler: windows has no rst software
15:05:01 <Ammler> Alberth: the effort to make a file viewer in openttd is not worth
15:05:10 <Ammler> easier to add more info to a8/14
15:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: this is about having readme in the action14. then openttd could display the action14 data, while external viewers could display the (autogenerated) html from the tar
15:06:07 <Ammler> and the author can still generate with that info a readme for his webpage and readme etc.
15:06:38 <Ammler> else you need to maintain a lot infos doulbe
15:06:55 <Alberth> feel free to create a post at a forum and ask the poeple that actually want this functionality
15:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and there's still the issue that bananas download shows a "proper" description, which later isn't available anymore in the newgrf settings. so valuable information is just thrown away
15:08:25 <Alberth> personally, I don't really care how the info is delivered, I just think there should be more info available for a user
15:08:50 <Ammler> yes, that is another issue, bananas should also use the info from the grf too
15:09:11 <Ammler> specially title
15:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: you have my argument backwards
15:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the bananas info is already there, in a machine readable and openttd displayable format. it is just thrown away
15:10:13 <Ammler> the bananas desc is of no need for openttd
15:10:22 <Ammler> that is just to make "advertising"
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15:10:36 <Ammler> if you once downloaded the grf, that info is useless
15:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it is not
15:10:46 <Ammler> so it is fine as it is imo
15:10:57 <Ammler> but bananas should have the infos from the grf
15:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference is that old grfs won't contain new descriptions. but perfectly fine descriptions are already there.
15:13:03 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: the only description a old grf should have is "please use the new version"
15:13:47 <Ammler> (or the grf description)
15:14:58 <Ammler> I mean, why should I take the effort to make a nice description for a old version, if I simply could release a new version with a14 etc.?
15:15:18 <planetmaker> :-)
15:15:28 <planetmaker> Adding that is indeed not difficult
15:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: but why should i make a widespread grf incompatible without any functional changes?
15:16:34 <Ammler> what does make it incompatible?
15:16:39 <Ammler> a14 doesn't
15:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: different md5sum == incompatible
15:16:56 <Ammler> who told you that?
15:17:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the game, every time i make a few modifications.
15:17:30 <Ammler> ah, you mean that new "security feature" of 1.1.0?
15:17:53 <Ammler> you really don't use scenario_developer or how that is called?
15:18:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it's not about what _I_ use
15:19:15 <Ammler> well, I can just tell what I do or would like, I know, you and some others here are capable to know what is best for others ;-)
15:20:06 <Ammler> the most sucking features are result of such silly thoughts...
15:21:01 <Ammler> after all, this is a opensource game, you don't need to sell it
15:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: my point was: there is already plenty of information in a displayable format, but it isn't displayed at the right place
15:23:28 <Ammler> there was a reason to keep different infos for bananas and grf gui, wasn't?
15:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i never heard one
15:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> just that the grf gui is older than bananas
15:24:01 <Ammler> bananas is able to read the grfid from it, so it wouldn't have beend hard to also get the desc from there
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15:24:44 <Ammler> bananas desc is for advertising, grf desc for using :-)
15:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the grf desc (from action 8) has some kind of length limitation
15:25:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never seen useful information in there, just author crediting and stuff
15:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> while in the bananas description is often longer and with valuable information
15:26:27 <Ammler> you think, the bananas descriptions have?
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16:07:37 <Alberth> (17:24:04) Ammler: bananas is able to read the grfid from it, so it wouldn't have beend hard to also get the desc from there <-- openttd has no storage for that info
16:08:52 <Alberth> if anywhere, it should be part of the file that gets copied/downloaded/shared, etc
16:09:20 <Ammler> Alberth: bananas
16:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, in the .tar, which brings us back to reading an external text file
16:09:59 <Alberth> bananas is not storage for openttd
16:10:26 <Ammler> why is there need for a text file which everyone formats differentely instead using a proper specified a14 properity?
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16:10:46 <Ammler> afaik, the grf is also part of the tar :-)
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16:11:20 <Alberth> Ammler: isn't that the question started with?
16:12:04 <Ammler> I just think, the need for readme viewer is depreciated with a14
16:12:11 <Alberth> existing newgrf have no a14
16:12:39 <Ammler> why do you care about existing grfs, you don't when you make gameplay changes
16:13:12 <Ammler> and existing grfs would also need that readme
16:13:19 <Alberth> did I make a gameplay change?
16:13:26 <Alberth> one that broke newgrfs?
16:13:27 <Ammler> you = devs :-)
16:14:10 <Ammler> but anyway, authors need to make a info file, so they could as easy add a14
16:14:13 <Alberth> Ammler: it is more a bunch of individuals that happen to have commit access to svn
16:15:14 <Ammler> so the argument about existing grfs is invalid, unless you want to support viewing of exisint files
16:15:42 <Ammler> then you need to support 10(?) different formats
16:16:38 <Ammler> and html, and pdf and...
16:16:42 <Alberth> where does one store recommended vehicle sets for eg FIRS in a14?
16:17:19 <Ammler> in a new custom a14 properity "supported vehicle sets"
16:17:20 <Alberth> or explanation of what ecomomies will exist, and when to play which one
16:17:51 <Ammler> maybe with direct download possibility :-)
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16:18:12 <Ammler> Alberth: that is something you can read from the homepage or the readme
16:18:17 <Alberth> from where? the file I already have?
16:18:36 <Alberth> how do you read the readme at a plain windows system
16:18:37 <Alberth> ?
16:18:40 <Ammler> or from another a14 properity
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16:19:55 <Alberth> so every newgrf has its own set of custom properties?
16:20:03 <Alberth> how is that better?
16:20:29 <Ammler> hmm, why is there need for own?
16:20:52 <Alberth> (18:18:43) Ammler: or from another a14 properity <-- how many other newgrf have economies like FIRS?
16:21:52 <Ammler> Alberth: the difference is, you don't need to implement and support a file viewer
16:22:14 <Ammler> IMO, quite major :-)
16:22:28 <Zuu> If you go for a readme file reader solution I think it will be easier to adopt to other type of bananas content than NewGRFs.
16:22:39 <planetmaker> Ammler: a plain text file is far more versatile than any bananas or newgrf property ever can be.
16:23:02 <Alberth> and quite trivial, as we can already load arbitrary files from tars
16:23:15 <Ammler> planetmaker: that makes it worse, not better
16:23:30 <Ammler> as you have no spec
16:23:40 <planetmaker> I can only say: how can it make it worse?
16:24:03 <planetmaker> No readme available vs. support for plain text readmes
16:24:05 <Alberth> Ammler: you have custom information for every newgrf, you need to keep that somewhere, as part of the distributed newgrf file
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16:24:12 <planetmaker> where is there anything detrimental?
16:25:46 <Alberth> readme files are by definition intended for human readers, they have superior parsing capabilities to machines
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16:26:44 <planetmaker> btw, also by offering ingame support for plain text readmes, none of the existing readmes or inforation channels about newgrfs becomes invalid, Ammler
16:26:49 <Ammler> planetmaker: you think, it is useful to read the FIRS readme with openttd?
16:26:57 <planetmaker> Ammler: yes
16:27:16 <Ammler> so why a14?
16:27:43 <planetmaker> e.g. for parameter description. But a readme can also give hints on 'how to play' - where would that go?
16:27:59 <planetmaker> a14 is directly newgrf-related. The readme is player information
16:28:12 <planetmaker> thus a14 -> openttd. readme -> player
16:28:27 <Ammler> hmm, I would say, that would be a guide or homepage for
16:28:36 <Zuu> parameter description is also things are useful for "everyday use" while the readme is mostly useful as extended help for new users.
16:28:37 <planetmaker> you can still have that.
16:28:50 <Ammler> same reason the wiki readme for ogx is that ugly
16:28:53 <Ammler> ogfx*
16:29:18 <planetmaker> Ammler: and when the readme only tells the reader: Please go to ... for more information including graphical introduction
16:29:34 <planetmaker> well, yes
16:30:01 <planetmaker> ingame it would be read far more
16:30:21 <planetmaker> as most get things via online content. Then ingame is the only means of communication author <-> player
16:30:35 <Alberth> Ammler: you have to type the URL manually to get to a home page
16:31:01 <Ammler> Alberth: yep, so you need a readme without links
16:31:36 <Alberth> which beats no simple way to access that information
16:32:31 <Ammler> it means you need to compile a special info file, you can't use the readme
16:32:44 <Ammler> so you can as good add it as a14 :-)
16:33:35 <Alberth> how can you not use the readme?
16:33:36 <planetmaker> Ammler: the normal readme which every project on the DevZone has will suffice for this
16:33:48 <Ammler> simple properities with a title and desc
16:33:50 <planetmaker> And it will suddenly become interesting to actually make that readme valuable
16:34:09 <Ammler> planetmaker: no, that readme has links
16:34:10 <Alberth> it may contain some stuff that is not really needed, but who cares?
16:34:26 <planetmaker> Ammler: yes, so?
16:34:27 <Alberth> the newgrf description now also has links
16:34:32 <Ammler> and it has info about parameter, which are already in a14
16:34:36 <planetmaker> Even action8 has links
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16:35:37 <Alberth> perhaps the user never knew about certain options? or they were not clear from the a14 text?
16:35:50 <planetmaker> a14 can make it clear
16:35:59 <Zuu> In a readme you could explain the settings in more detail that is not possible in the settings window?
16:36:02 <Ammler> then someone sould make that clear instead add double infos
16:36:28 <planetmaker> But a readme has more than just description of what a single setting does
16:36:40 <Ammler> it could also happen that someone updates/changes and doesn't update the readme
16:36:49 <planetmaker> You don't want to write a book on, say, a FIRS economy
16:37:07 <Alberth> planetmaker: someone will one day :)
16:37:09 <planetmaker> Yes, it can also happen that people release broken newgrfs. So what?
16:37:26 <Zuu> Well, its up to each author how much docs you want to maintain.
16:37:45 <Zuu> At the moment you are restricted to a text of maximum 500 chars.
16:38:12 <Ammler> Zuu: you can add a readme or a guid or a whole homepage about
16:38:12 <Alberth> such authors probably cannot be bothered to write a readme in the first place, which is also allowed
16:39:09 <Ammler> the main issue is that a openttd viewer never will support images and links
16:39:17 <Alberth> Ammler: there is no way you are going to get that document out of the tar file without installing extra software that you need to know where to find
16:39:18 <Zuu> At the moment I dont have any readmes to any of my AIs as nooen would ever care to read it.
16:39:21 <planetmaker> Ammler: please tell me, what is then the better concept over a readme viewer? Something which is not a browser included within OpenTTD
16:39:43 <Zuu> I can print as much info as I want in the AI log, but I'm sure most people wouldn't even notice it.
16:40:04 <Ammler> planetmaker: extend a14
16:40:29 <Ammler> might not be better but much easier for you and the author
16:40:52 <Ammler> and of course not worse :-)
16:42:07 <Zuu> I don't see why an in-game readme reader wouldn't be able to support images. It would be more work, but I wouldn't categorize it as imposible.
16:42:12 <Ammler> and you have the info once only
16:42:24 * Alberth repeats question how to store custom information that every newgrf has in a14 without making it useless
16:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> removing railtype grf does awful things to the graphics... why? can't you use simple rails as fallback graphics?
16:44:09 <Ammler> also wouldn't it be nice to have further infos about a parameter with the parameter instead the need to crawl the readme
16:46:06 <Zuu> As for parameters, you have a point, but I'm certain there are still things that would not fit in the parameter descs but would fit in a readme.
16:46:48 <Zuu> Btw, if you add a long desc to a14, a long desc to NoAI is also welcome :-)
16:47:05 <planetmaker> Ammler: the readme itself has nothing to do what you add as desc to a parameter
16:47:27 <Ammler> well, but you could add that info to a14
16:47:29 <planetmaker> But I see no advantage to add a _whole_ readme inside a NewGRF. That's way more complicated to maintain as author IMHO
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16:48:01 <Ammler> you don't, that is the _whole_ point
16:48:07 <planetmaker> And the NoAI argument is actually a _very_ good one against action14
16:48:10 <planetmaker> or scenarios
16:48:32 <planetmaker> Ammler: but action14 = inside grf. Readme=outside grf. The latter is easier
16:49:00 <planetmaker> I think we're walking circles, though
16:49:34 <Ammler> well, it doesn't hurt, you will see how useful it is
16:49:35 <Zuu> planetmaker: Yes, so code it up and commit before Ammler comes with futher arguments :-)
16:49:54 <Ammler> Zuu: "they" never care about my thoughts :-P
16:50:05 <planetmaker> totally not true :-)
16:50:12 <Ammler> :-)
16:50:26 <planetmaker> but we do not always agree either ;-)
16:50:36 <Ammler> rarly
16:51:23 <planetmaker> that's also totally not true ;-)
16:51:42 <Ammler> ah well :-D
16:53:08 <planetmaker> but you recently found two or three points which you chose to strongly disagree to the way it was implemented. Of course that is obvious, but not the many things which 'just work' as you expect them to ;-)
16:56:29 <planetmaker> back to slicing the factory :-)
16:56:38 <planetmaker> I successfully killed the discussion :-P
16:58:38 <V453000> beer!
16:58:49 * V453000 is waiting to see if that brought the discussion back ;)
16:58:49 <V453000> :D
17:01:39 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently not
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17:03:45 <LordAro> an interesting conversation has been happening while i've been gone...
17:03:59 <LordAro> should i make a forum thread?
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17:18:04 <Ammler> planetmaker: well, just because you implemented it that way, because you are unable to ignore some stupid support/bug reports :-)
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17:35:56 <Eddi|zuHause> err... in strings.cpp:641: return _units[_settings_game.locale.units].c_velocity.ToDisplay(speed, false); <-- why not "true" here? ("apply rounding")
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17:41:57 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: would the transparency window like work for you?
17:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: not really...
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22376 /trunk/src/lang/ (portuguese.txt simplified_chinese.txt slovenian.txt):
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 6 changes by Gavin
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 2 changes by Necrolyte
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17:47:18 <Alberth> hmm, I really don't understand it, thus :/
17:49:12 <planetmaker> Alberth: I think the point is: currently you have two ways to use it: toggle current settings as set in the window with x
17:49:47 <planetmaker> the other which a 3-state button won't allow anymore is: window open and toggling a button to switch visibility -> transparency or invisibility for a single item
17:49:54 <planetmaker> can be useful indeed
17:50:16 <planetmaker> at least such use would be more difficult with a 3-state button
17:50:47 <planetmaker> and using radio buttons would even require mouse movement
17:53:58 <Alberth> Ah, that is what I have been missing. I never realized you could use the window by itself too.
17:54:02 <Alberth> thanks!
17:55:06 <planetmaker> you're welcome
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18:06:56 <LordAro> Alberth: do you think i should move the GRFHasReadme() function to be a part of GRFConfig?
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18:07:37 <LordAro> (i haven't looked into the feasibility of it yet)
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18:09:55 <Alberth> I don't have an opinion about it yet, GRFConfig does not hit me as the obvious right choice, but I don't know of any useful alternative either, so you may be right. In any case, moving code is imho not the main problem at this time, I'd suggest to get it running first
18:10:50 <Alberth> moving a function to some other struct is quite simple to do afterwards as well
18:14:08 <LordAro> maybe :) i just thought it would be easier to do something like 'this->has_readme' than using the functions separately
18:17:08 <Alberth> it is mostly f(this); versus this->f(); not much of a difference
18:17:50 <Alberth> but if you believe in GRFConfig is better, it's your party
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18:19:32 <LordAro> i guess
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18:20:45 * LordAro ponders on an auto updating hg clone pull-er/updater script
18:21:16 <Alberth> ie hg fetch?
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18:22:03 <Alberth> or do you use a patch queue?
18:22:10 <LordAro> one that does it every hour or something
18:22:24 <LordAro> just to make life easier for my clean trunk clone
18:22:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean a cronjob
18:22:59 <Alberth> I do it just when I get online, mostly once a day
18:23:13 <Alberth> unless an important change comes by
18:23:45 <LordAro> i'd end up forgetting though, then have huge merges to do...
18:25:21 <Alberth> you don't touch that many files do you?
18:26:33 <LordAro> shh :)
18:26:58 <LordAro> i'd like one anyway, at least for the show-off factor :P
18:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i'll be impressed if you teach it to automatically resolve conflicts :p
18:30:27 <LordAro> :) i meant for clean trunk only
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18:40:42 <Alberth> LordAro: something like this?
18:42:57 <LordAro> not sure, i don't think so... :)
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19:10:50 <andythenorth> ho ho ho
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19:12:40 <frosch123> hihihi
19:12:48 <andythenorth> quak quak quak
19:13:02 * andythenorth still thinks of ducks, not frosches
19:13:10 <andythenorth> or froschen
19:13:33 <frosch123> no need for plural, there is only me :p
19:14:16 <alluke> andy
19:14:23 <alluke> i found something for heqs 2
19:14:39 <andythenorth> indeed
19:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the plural is Frösche
19:15:22 <andythenorth> we could do with more of them
19:15:32 * andythenorth could do with more andythenorths
19:15:40 <andythenorth> might not be so fun for the rest of you :P
19:16:07 <alluke> andy
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19:16:26 <alluke>
19:16:32 <alluke> take a look
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19:19:31 <andythenorth> alluke:
19:19:49 <andythenorth> leaves the Sisu looking embarassed
19:21:18 <andythenorth> 1500hp
19:21:20 <andythenorth> up to 300t
19:21:24 <andythenorth> at highway truck speeds
19:21:58 <andythenorth> :D
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19:36:10 <Eddi|zuHause> err... which action 3 do i hook my station rating callback to?
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19:44:36 <frosch123> it's a generic callback
19:44:42 <frosch123> i.e no id at all
19:45:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand that
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19:45:10 <frosch123> "n-id" = 0
19:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand that either
19:45:49 <frosch123> <- using the notation from that page
19:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so <action3> <feature stations(?)> 00 <action2-id>?
19:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> no, there's someg missing
19:47:03 <frosch123> i guess one 00 more
19:47:07 <frosch123> n-id and num-cid
19:47:25 <Rubidium> just take a look at DBSetXL 0.9's source ;)
19:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but that's in some m4-script thingy...
19:48:01 <frosch123> isn't eddi the main coder of that one? :p
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19:50:59 * andythenorth just loves reading other people's unformatted nfo :|
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20:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> has _anybody_ actually seen some dbsetxl 0.9 code?
20:05:20 <Terkhen> unless the code created itself, at least one person has seen it
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20:09:47 <Wolf01> 'night
20:09:48 <__ln__> Terkhen: not necessarily if it was created by a blind person
20:09:51 <__ln__> 'night Wolf01
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20:14:36 <andythenorth> tip of day from /me
20:14:41 <andythenorth> don't draw windmills
20:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with the one you have?
20:15:32 <andythenorth> not good enough
20:16:17 <andythenorth> isometric bitmaps and conical buildings do not fit together well
20:16:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you're nitpicking. do some of the "uses default graphics" industries instead...
20:17:34 <andythenorth> just responding to the crowd :P
20:19:04 <andythenorth> hey
20:19:08 <andythenorth> FIRS r1988
20:19:14 <andythenorth> r2k here I come :P
20:19:25 <andythenorth> one commit per character changed - too fine grained?
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20:32:41 * andythenorth takes advice from Eddi|zuHause
20:32:42 <andythenorth>
20:32:48 <andythenorth> and does something else instead
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20:47:46 <frosch123> [22:04] <Eddi|zuHause> has _anybody_ actually seen some dbsetxl 0.9 code? <- i have the action 8
20:52:52 <asilv> I have a grf that claims to be dbsetxl 0.9, I could decode it :p
20:53:05 <frosch123> svt137w ?
20:53:11 <asilv> yes
20:53:20 <frosch123> :)
20:53:29 <asilv> not sure why I have it
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20:54:04 <frosch123> iirc it was some nfo example for some newbie on some forum
20:54:12 <asilv> must have been the "oh a grf! must download" reflex
20:59:33 <frosch123> night
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21:25:44 <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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22:00:47 <Zuu> planetmaker: my personal opinion is that > 2 state buttons are evil.
22:01:18 <Zuu> You need to know their current state in order to know how many pushs you need to do inorder to reach the state you want.
22:01:41 <Zuu> A lot more mental effort than klicking on the option you want.
22:03:04 <Zuu> Yet all hearing aids has pretty much switched from a linear 3-state switch to a single button, often with 3-5 states that cycle.
22:10:32 <peter1138> :S
22:12:30 <Zuu> Where the old mechanical 3-state switch was instant as you knew which movement to make, the new cyclic buttons are much slower to operate. Usually when you get them they have filled it up with music programs, silent programs and whatever which takes forever to cycle through. :-)
22:13:22 <Zuu> Good night
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22:27:21 <Terkhen> good night
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23:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> dear cat. the screen is way bigger than you. yet you manage to fully cover the entire view.
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23:52:24 <glx> they're good to do that
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