IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-24
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00:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> if i start a new game in the next half year, please remind me to try TaI then :)
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01:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: "Let the game run for one or two months, this is needed to properly collect some internal statistics." <-- can't this be done already before the game starts? the (random) game creation lets a few ticks run already
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07:01:57 <Alberth> moin yorick, and welcome Mazur :)
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07:10:09 <Mazur> I think I never saw it spoke before.
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08:05:51 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Not really, as the date isn't increased during that, which means that NewGRF stuff (houses/industries) that make use of the date don't give proper production during the tile loop.
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10:18:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, improved. But I somehow liked the more 'boring' way of the much less pronounced stories in the initial old version.
10:19:11 <planetmaker> Those textile factories I know don't have their stories as pronounced on the outside
10:19:32 <planetmaker> all other stuff like shadings and colours iMHO are better in the newest, though
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10:19:51 <andythenorth> I was trying to address George's feedback :P
10:20:15 <andythenorth> it's easy to change either way
10:21:49 <Alberth> the chimney looks out of place imho, it is too bulky compared to the building
10:22:01 <planetmaker> I'd not say that :-)
10:22:07 <planetmaker> chimneys tend to be bulky
10:22:16 <Alberth> especially, as you can enter it through a door :)
10:23:09 <andythenorth> I like the chunky chimney ;)
10:23:13 <andythenorth> the door could stay or go
10:23:22 <planetmaker> might not fit for a chimney
10:23:34 <planetmaker> "enter here to incinerate yourself"
10:24:32 <Alberth> can you let the chimney start at the ground? Now it looks a bit like it is on top of that small building
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10:26:52 <Alberth> oh, you have an angled roof just at the left. not sure how appropriate that is, as you don't need much light around a big fire :)
10:29:27 <planetmaker> much improved chimney placement, indeed
10:31:23 <planetmaker> I compared to rework 2
10:34:12 <andythenorth> not convinced that last one improves anything much
10:35:58 <planetmaker> well, it still looks like something is extruding from the wall at each story roof. That's a bit weired IMHO for a textile mill
10:36:50 <planetmaker> I really like the story separation of the old version, better :-)
10:37:13 <planetmaker> which is mostly a wall, that's it. That's what I expect of an industrial building
10:39:35 <andythenorth> looked kind of...flat
10:39:45 <andythenorth> I can reduce the shadows a bit below it
10:41:17 <andythenorth> maybe I just do a smaller line
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10:41:56 <planetmaker> there are no lines in that building.
10:42:31 <planetmaker> hm... a VERY small one under the windows
10:42:40 <fonsinchen> michi_cc: You've been working on YACD since june 2009 (judging from your git log). You could have told me about it and it would be ready by now ...
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10:43:23 <fonsinchen> I don't insist on cargodist being the only true way to do it, you know ...
10:45:31 <Ammler> are destination and distribution completely different? Maybe you could combine some stuff?
10:45:33 <planetmaker> fonsinchen: that's just the way he works: hide for long and then *pop*, "I've a somewhat working implementation here". It certainly has nothing to do with you or hiding it from anyone.
10:46:07 <fonsinchen> We can combine some stuff. He can take my smallmap and viewport overlays for example.
10:46:33 <fonsinchen> Or I can take his integration with the pathfinder if I understand how it works.
10:47:06 <Ammler> both are almost useless without is ;-)
10:47:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth , the line width in the old style is IMHO appropriate
10:47:43 <fonsinchen> He's right though. The approaches are quite different. He has fixed destinations while cargodist only takes destinations reachable in the given network.
10:48:19 <planetmaker> yes. The difference is distribution vs. destinations
10:48:31 <fonsinchen> I chose this approach as it's easier in the early game and gives the player more freedom to shape the network.
10:48:37 <planetmaker> spellt that way it gets clear(er)
10:49:16 <Ammler> fonsinchen: your destination is mainly for lazy guys, so they don't need to care about transfer :-)
10:49:29 <fonsinchen> Both approaches have their merits I think. One could even imagine an implementation offering both as options.
10:50:01 <fonsinchen> Being lazy is what drives humanity forward ;)
10:51:58 <fonsinchen> Also this was the very problem that drove me to start with cargodist: You can't create a passenger network where people will transfer at a hub (for example a central station) to and from a local transport service correctly without cargodist.
10:52:44 <Ammler> true, that is the main usage of it
10:53:34 <fonsinchen> Also you cannot do partial transfers without cargodist (or another form of destinations or distribution)
10:53:55 <Ammler> how hard would it be to make such things manually?
10:54:33 <Ammler> I mean, would that be a complete new patch or could cargodist already allow something like that?
10:54:47 <fonsinchen> Easier than cargodist probably. But when thinking about it I though: Well, now that I'm at it I could also make it determine the transfer amounts automatically.
10:55:04 <fonsinchen> And then one thing lead to the next and in the end I had cargodist.
10:56:21 <fonsinchen> If I'd do the partial and to/from transfers separately now, I'd make those a bunch of special orders. That would be a completely different approach than cargodist.
10:59:32 <fonsinchen> Well, it seems michi_cc isn't answering today. I'm offline for now. Happy Easter.
11:08:16 <andythenorth_> it needs to keep some shading + relief, or it looks like a slab
11:08:49 <planetmaker> yes, that's the right direction from my subjective point of view
11:08:56 <andythenorth_> I'm fine with it
11:09:05 <andythenorth_> I think that's enough shadow removed
11:09:09 <andythenorth_> or it looks 'realistic'
11:10:51 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: wrt OpenGFX factory sprites...
11:11:03 <andythenorth_> I am going to redraw FIRS glass works
11:11:11 <andythenorth_> it will use 2x2 repeated modules
11:11:17 <andythenorth_> and it will be quite factory-like
11:11:28 <planetmaker> I'll look forward to seeing that
11:11:37 <andythenorth_> building shape will be quite similar to ttd factory
11:11:44 <andythenorth_> shading might be different
11:11:57 <andythenorth_> might not be brick, but more similar to station shading
11:12:03 <andythenorth_> unless that sucks
11:12:50 <andythenorth_> should I reply to Leanden about FIRS IDs?
11:12:58 <andythenorth_> might be flame-alike :P
11:14:02 <andythenorth_> FIRS dev thread ;)
11:16:48 <planetmaker> do the Pikka thing ;-)
11:17:11 <planetmaker> silently ignore nasty stuff ;-)
11:17:41 <planetmaker> stuff as in stupid comments and alike
11:18:13 <planetmaker> :-) It's meant as a compliment, you know
11:18:43 <andythenorth_> he's just lazy :P
11:18:55 <andythenorth_> real men get involved in pissy flamer wars ;)
11:22:45 <planetmaker> Pikka: maybe more accurately the "thing" should translate to "silently ignore feedback for a newgrf you disagree with" ;-)
11:23:07 <andythenorth_> Pikka: do you overpaint renders for AV8?
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11:23:14 <andythenorth_> or have you got a magic render setting?
11:33:25 <Pikka> andy, I remove odd pixels and add details like windows
11:33:34 <Pikka> but most of the shading and shaping is pure render
11:35:33 <andythenorth_> it doesn't add unhelpful anti-aliasing? and it renders in correct palette?
11:36:35 <Pikka> it doesn't add unhelpful anti-aliasing, and I convert the palette in psp
11:36:55 <andythenorth_> drawing FISH took a lot of work - cleaning the renders
11:36:57 <Pikka> using a cut-down version of the ttd palette that only has the colour ranges I want it to use :)
11:37:49 <Pikka> what do you use to render, andy?
11:38:01 <andythenorth_> I use a thing called lead@inbox ;)
11:38:03 <andythenorth_> he's very quick
11:38:16 <Pikka> and what does he use, blender?
11:38:27 <andythenorth_> not sure, didn't ask ;)
11:38:29 <andythenorth_> I used to use cinema 4D a lot, but not for TTD
11:38:40 <andythenorth_> and some other more motion-graphics type 3D software
11:38:41 <Pikka> I could never make head nor tail of blender, but I see no reason why it shouldn't produce the same results as max
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11:39:38 <andythenorth_> I never learnt max
11:42:08 <andythenorth_> I should swap one of the warehouse tiles out for a yard
11:42:13 <andythenorth_> with some boxes and stuff
11:44:04 <andythenorth_> __ln__: AWS goes away sometimes ;)
11:44:21 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: you definitely watched too often "Cube" ;-)
11:44:51 <andythenorth_> I haven't seen it, but IMDB suggests I should ;)
11:46:33 <Pikka> www.pruplethingz.com/junk/Image44.png
11:46:46 <andythenorth_> eGRVTS isn't maintained
11:46:54 <Pikka> render, palletted, sprite... not too much work done on that one.
11:47:05 <andythenorth_> that's very clean indeed
11:47:34 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: should we take over eGRVTS?
11:47:40 <andythenorth_> but it's not maintained...
11:47:43 <Pikka> sometimes I might do things like manually dither the border between two shades on the fins or wings, but obviously on this one I couldn't be bothered :)
11:50:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Leanden is also one of those pathologic cases...
11:52:02 <Pikka> "I did it for the hovercraft because it's clever, not because it's good" <- this sounds like the thinking behind regearing :)
11:52:46 <Alberth> let's add a new feature so it gets broken :p
11:53:02 <andythenorth_> how about smoke?
11:53:26 <andythenorth_> smoke is in a sad state
11:53:36 <andythenorth_> it would be a nice easter present :P
11:53:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: something "elementary" similar to the disable-turning-around-in-depot
11:53:55 <Pikka> smoke would be good for wakes also
11:54:10 <andythenorth_> only if fully implemented as newgrf effect vehicles :P
11:54:23 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: if we can break more things, so much the better :p
11:54:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: can't you abuse rotor for that?
11:54:26 <Pikka> but there's no reason not to go that whole hog, is there? :P
11:54:29 <andythenorth_> I would pay 1 dollar to be able to use the current nearly-working-but-broken smoke :P
11:54:37 <andythenorth_> adding current smoke broke DB Set
11:54:40 <andythenorth_> all kinds of drama
11:55:03 <Pikka> pretty sure you can't have a rotor on something that's not a helicopter, eddi, and it wouldn't be much good because it moves with the vehicle anyway.
11:55:26 <Pikka> adding a wake as part of the main sprite is no big drama, it just will be hard to make it look as good as a "particle effect" type wake.
11:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you're right
11:55:51 <andythenorth_> wake with the sea animation is...acceptable
11:56:12 <andythenorth_> or there's this one - this could introduce some helpful breakage
11:56:22 <andythenorth_> that involves New*****Ports
11:56:26 <andythenorth_> or whatever it's called
11:56:36 <Eddi|zuHause> NewFuckingPorts!
11:58:01 <andythenorth_> newports would also put an end to helicopter fishing
11:58:53 <andythenorth_> about two years ago frosch had a patch to 'fix' stations on water
11:59:08 <andythenorth_> but newports is doing it right :P
11:59:17 <andythenorth_> why can't we be more like PHP?
11:59:26 <Pikka> I've often wondered that
11:59:34 <andythenorth_> do it wrong, but win
11:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: we'd be TTDPatch then ;)
12:00:06 <andythenorth_> my day job is very python-focussed, which also means everything must be done right there too
12:00:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: switch to the competition project. They work that way :-P
12:00:28 * Pikka toddles off to make tea
12:00:34 * andythenorth_ should go to the shops
12:00:44 <planetmaker> shops? On Easter Sunday?
12:00:45 <andythenorth_> if newports was done when we both get back, that would be nice
12:00:50 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: dunno, they might be shut
12:00:55 <andythenorth_> could be a dissapointing trip
12:02:58 <Pikka> shops here are shut today and tomorrow, it is a bad time to be low on supplies
12:03:34 <Pikka> man cannot live on chocolate rabbits alone
12:03:53 <planetmaker> unless filled with beer?
12:04:23 <XeryusTC> Pikka: man cannot live on rabbits alone :P
12:04:56 <planetmaker> vegitarians eat my food's food ;-) But beef instead of rabbit is fine, too
12:05:25 <planetmaker> 'nough of clichés now :-P
12:06:51 <Pikka> actually that's very true XeryusTC
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13:32:36 <DorpsGek> Alberth: I have not seen all.
13:33:10 <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX: someone was last seen in #openttd 27 weeks, 0 days, 19 hours, 52 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed
13:33:47 * ZirconiumX thinks DorpsGek has a long memory
13:34:19 <Alberth> he is less crazy than you may think :p
13:35:17 <ZirconiumX> no - I thought that he was sane - now he's less than sane :p
13:35:53 <Alberth> 'DorpsGek' means 'Village idiot' in Dutch :)
13:36:24 <ZirconiumX> <AI Debug> <Error> PAnic!
13:37:30 <ZirconiumX> the panic, or the less than sane bit?
13:37:46 <Alberth> your panic message :)
13:38:31 <ZirconiumX> Based on the road pathfinder
13:38:59 <ZirconiumX> AILog.Error("Panic!")
13:39:26 <Alberth> ah, not a real panic, just a simulated one :)
13:39:53 <ZirconiumX> That's where I borrowed the Idea from
13:40:06 <ZirconiumX> - as well as the Ooops messages
13:51:51 <ZirconiumX> I'm going to do something that probably isn't helpful - but what the heck
13:58:01 <ZirconiumX> meh - It doesn't have quite the same effect
13:58:13 <ZirconiumX> is what I'm hoping for
14:02:32 <Alberth> only you can decide :)
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14:03:32 <ZirconiumX> It'll probably look terrible in the font
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14:15:09 <ZirconiumX> I've axed the dead donkey - openttd complained
14:33:08 <ZirconiumX> How do I take the AITownList output and turn it into something I can go:
14:33:41 <ZirconiumX> town_a = AITownList.Begin()
14:33:59 <ZirconiumX> town_b = AITownList.Next()
14:34:12 <ZirconiumX> town_b = blah.Next()
14:34:19 <ZirconiumX> in a spiderweb fashion
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14:49:26 <dihedral> ZirconiumX, monogloguing?
14:58:40 <planetmaker> a dihedral ! Happy Easter :-)
14:59:11 <dihedral> Hoppy easter to you too planetmaker :-)
15:02:20 <ZirconiumX> Happy easter pm & dihedral
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15:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i read about that
16:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> ZirconiumX: what are you trying to tell us with that?
16:16:05 <ZirconiumX> nvm - I just found it funny
16:23:54 <Sacro> hang on, diagonal bridges?
16:24:24 <Sacro> no, perspective is borked
16:31:32 <planetmaker> I wonder though which part, ZirconiumX ;-)
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16:55:31 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
16:56:56 <ZirconiumX> <random comment alert - ignore if you wish> http://www.viceland.com/wp/2009/07/babes-of-the-bnp/ extract Which do you dislike more, Muslims or Hindus? Muslims. They’re the ones who’ve got the most attention, they’re the ones who are kicking off about things the most. They’re more in the public eye as troublemakers </random comment>
16:58:14 * Alberth dislikes random comments VERY much
16:59:09 <ZirconiumX> At least I warned you...
17:02:01 <__ln__> is "30jähriger" spelled like that, or with a dash?
17:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> without dash wins on google...
17:04:09 <Alberth> ZirconiumX: it is a gross generalization of two religious groups of people, it has a very non-friendly political message that its author is trying to sell
17:04:20 <Eddi|zuHause> ah no, with "" it doesn't
17:04:43 <__ln__> googlefight is not the optimal tool for correct spelling in general :)
17:04:47 <Alberth> ZirconiumX: and apparently, you like it enough to further spread it
17:07:10 <andythenorth_> wtf is zirconiumx doing posting that here?
17:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: duden-suche.de says "1. -jäh|rig: in Zusb., z.B. achtjährig (mit Ziffer: 8-jährig): acht Jahre alt, dauernd."
17:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: so with - when you use the number, without - when you write out the number
17:08:59 <andythenorth_> wonder if he knows it's satire? :o
17:09:12 * Alberth failed to understand it as such
17:09:57 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: thanks; the only remaining mystery then is why is the dashless version so common, with digits
17:14:24 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: as far as i understand it, the - is part of the spelling reform
17:15:46 <__ln__> ahh, i learned deutsch mostly before the reform
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17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22375 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 3 changes by jomasaco
17:51:21 <andythenorth_> is newgrf for idiots who can't use default vehicles?
17:51:38 <andythenorth_> I'll stay home and look after the baby instead
17:57:32 <andythenorth_> Alberth: any more thoughts on the industry layouts? :)
17:57:43 <andythenorth_> that's for idiots who don't like random :D
17:58:16 <Alberth> or newgrf authors that want to have more than one industry layout ;)
18:00:46 <andythenorth_> the 'idiots' stuff happened in the other channel :P
18:05:07 <Alberth> But no, I haven't it given any further thought.
18:05:07 <Alberth> I currently still think that it would be nice if a user can state what industry he wants exactly, but that makes life also very complicated for the case of having exactly one industry layout, as the window makes not much sense then.
18:05:54 <andythenorth_> it makes most sense in case of things like FIRS fishing harbour
18:06:07 <andythenorth_> other than that, I'd rather have less choice about this kind of thing
18:07:13 <Alberth> indeed, so maybe my assumption is not good :)
18:07:47 <Alberth> that is, a user should not want such things
18:08:03 <andythenorth_> there are cases for it
18:08:13 <andythenorth_> but my case is as a newgrf developer
18:08:17 <andythenorth_> which is somewhat different
18:09:35 <Alberth> I guess there are lots of things that have layout, do you have control for those?
18:10:15 <Alberth> do houses have layout?
18:10:52 <andythenorth_> houses players have no control over
18:11:00 <andythenorth_> stations is on a tile-by-tile basis
18:11:09 <Alberth> I was thinking that too :)
18:12:07 <andythenorth_> your patch works perfectly for newgrf development btw
18:12:10 <Alberth> airport graphics exist only in one orientation
18:12:10 <andythenorth_> I'm using it right now
18:13:14 <Alberth> although if we ever get state machines, we'll need layouts for sea ports, and airports too
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18:16:27 <Alberth> and ideally, we'd need sprites seperately for displaying the layout
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18:33:37 <planetmaker> Alberth: I attached as mock-up what is my idea of the transparency window
18:35:24 <andythenorth_> what's the case for full animation ever being off?
18:35:27 <andythenorth_> this is not 1994
18:35:39 <Alberth> planetmaker: I like it! :)
18:36:07 <Alberth> andythenorth_: I find moving water annoying
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18:36:12 <andythenorth_> or to put it another way....why can't these go in advanced settings, interface
18:36:27 <andythenorth_> how often during gameplay do they need turned on / off
18:36:35 <Alberth> 'full animation' is just palette animation
18:36:55 <Alberth> so even in 1994 it was not expensive :)
18:37:06 <andythenorth_> so for people with certain visual field problems, it might be annoying?
18:37:11 <andythenorth_> advanced setting
18:37:29 <andythenorth_> there's no serious case for turning it on / off easily during gameplay
18:37:41 <asilv_> I usually turn it off once game starts to run slowly, happens at most games
18:37:44 <andythenorth_> if we did a scoring exercise with limited points for GUI items, it would score low
18:37:59 <Alberth> asilv_: so does it have any effect?
18:38:03 <planetmaker> that's how I handle those two settings, too
18:38:03 <andythenorth_> does it have *any* measurable performance effect at all?
18:38:32 <Alberth> andythenorth_: I'd be surprised :)
18:38:41 <planetmaker> turning it off and on?
18:38:49 <andythenorth_> I don't understand blitters, but everything has to run through the sprite sorter anyway, transforming this palette is minimal CPU
18:38:49 <asilv_> yes, especially on fast forward
18:39:03 <andythenorth_> if it really matters, we should also disable all company colours
18:39:04 <planetmaker> full animation has more effect, but full animation also makes a difference on 'heavy' games
18:39:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: the point is: much more has to be re-drawn in the animation case
18:39:45 <planetmaker> like all water etc. All that can be skipped, nothing needs sorting
18:39:51 <andythenorth_> we should also disable the transparent station roofs and aircraft shadows?
18:40:24 * andythenorth_ is arguing to learn, not for arguing's sake
18:40:29 <asilv_> i was talking about animation, full detail does not have any noticeable effect
18:40:40 <andythenorth_> science would tell us the answer?
18:40:45 <andythenorth_> i.e. measure it
18:41:31 <andythenorth_> or just move it to advanced settings :)
18:41:33 <Alberth> full details controls details around tracks and roads, eg street lights
18:41:48 <andythenorth_> interface -> display options
18:42:01 <andythenorth_> I use full details to turn off fences
18:42:12 <andythenorth_> but I rarely need to turn it on/off in gameplay
18:42:19 <andythenorth_> it's a set-once kind of thing
18:42:34 <andythenorth_> turning on/off transparency is a much more common task
18:42:40 <planetmaker> so do I like fences :-)
18:43:37 <andythenorth_> I have nothing against them - I just mostly use NARS, and US railroads are unfenced
18:44:48 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: the lock buttons do what in your mockup?
18:45:13 <Alberth> lock them, so 'x' has no effect
18:45:14 <planetmaker> fix the setting from being changed by pressing 'x'
18:45:37 * andythenorth_ tries to work out how that works now
18:45:40 <planetmaker> btw, you see my default settings ;-)
18:46:07 <planetmaker> except industries which I changed there for the purpose of demonstration
18:46:15 <planetmaker> lol, you didn't know that?
18:46:18 <andythenorth_> 'yet another feature"
18:46:43 <andythenorth_> I like the current icons + layout
18:46:48 <andythenorth_> are words needed?
18:47:15 <andythenorth_> (I'm not against change)
18:47:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: but... it doesn't cover all options
18:47:18 <Alberth> it would be nice if visibility was merged into that window
18:48:22 <andythenorth_> sometimes when a word and icon are needed both, it indicates one is failing
18:49:30 <andythenorth_> if both *are* needed, then the layout could be improved simply by cropping bridge icon
18:49:30 <Alberth> ie we should drop the text part?
18:49:32 <planetmaker> the icons could be skipped. or replaced by words. They indicate the state
18:49:41 <planetmaker> yes, that could be done
18:49:48 <planetmaker> but that's the least of the issues
18:49:50 <andythenorth_> losing the icons seems a bit wrong
18:50:02 <planetmaker> quite. We all seem to agree there :-)
18:50:09 <planetmaker> it gives quick visual feedback
18:50:16 <andythenorth_> for the way I setup the gui, I wouldn't mind a switch from horizontal to vertical dialog
18:50:31 <andythenorth_> it could go at the left or right hand edge of the screen neatly
18:50:57 <andythenorth_> but the main issue is how to interact?
18:51:14 <andythenorth_> there are three states: opaque, semi-transparent, transparent
18:51:38 <planetmaker> I don't really think so. The main issue is how to add the yes/no switches to the 3-way (or 4-way if locked) switches of the current transparency
18:52:23 <andythenorth_> that's not the same as setting one of three states + lock? :o
18:54:13 <andythenorth_> I don't know of a GUI control type to do this other than < > arrows or drop-down menu
18:55:58 <planetmaker> nor do I. But horizontally two buttons next to eachother look bad.
18:55:58 <Alberth> click several times at the icon?
18:56:19 <planetmaker> Or another over-print icon for transparency is used. But that's then basically 3-state as we don't have a 2nd control
18:56:26 <planetmaker> that's my idea, Alberth, yes
18:57:13 <Alberth> and keep control click for fixating for 'x' (while still allowing a normal click)
18:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't like overloading the current toolbar with text...
18:57:59 <planetmaker> yep, keeping basically the same ctrl behaviour
18:58:14 <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion: a "large/small version" button like the finance window to switch between toolbar-like and setting-like window?
18:59:12 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I am currently not even sure we need a (much) bigger window, its seems we can do without the text
18:59:41 <planetmaker> then we just need additional icons. And not even that, if we move all those to the adv. settings
19:00:16 <Alberth> I agree on full animation and full details to the adv settings, but not the other ones imho
19:00:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: for "full animation" use a water icon, and for "full details" a fence icon?
19:00:28 <andythenorth_> I thought of click three times
19:00:32 <andythenorth_> but it's non-standard
19:00:41 <planetmaker> would work, yes, Eddi|zuHause
19:00:58 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: use the colour cycle for the icon :P
19:01:01 <andythenorth_> then it stops / starts
19:01:07 <andythenorth_> which might be what Eddi mean
19:01:10 <planetmaker> he. better idea :-)
19:01:23 <planetmaker> the palette from the newgrf wiki ;-)
19:01:38 <planetmaker> 16x16 px are sufficient
19:02:03 <planetmaker> the full palette also with the animated pixels
19:02:07 <Alberth> except nobody understands that icon :)
19:02:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the most stupid idea i heard today... honestly...
19:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> something about the industry layouts: if the layout is known beforehand, the affected tilearea can be highlighted properly
19:04:45 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: the layout could be selected when the 'fund' button is pressed...
19:04:50 <andythenorth_> and passed on to the next function
19:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: so one can enforce a different layout by unselecting fund again?
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19:23:38 <Alberth> andythenorth_: the white stripe is very good, it makes the buildings and the chimney belong together more
19:24:06 <andythenorth_> and it reduces the amount of orangey-brown colour, which is a bit like sick :P
19:25:30 <Alberth> yeah, it looks more fresh, although the door colors may also have to do with that
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19:52:14 <andythenorth_> the current transparency window isn't 100% intuitive anyway
19:52:58 <andythenorth_> is it common to alternate between partial and full transparency?
19:53:05 <andythenorth_> or could that just be a setting?
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19:53:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: it is common to have one on partial and another on full transparency
19:53:34 <Alberth> it would be many settings then
19:55:34 <andythenorth_> we do already have a case of click multiple times for different settings
19:55:59 <andythenorth_> far | middle | near
19:57:12 <Alberth> having a dropdown there would be somewhat messy? :)
19:57:24 <Alberth> I think 3 values is doable for a button
19:57:39 <andythenorth_> dropdown would suck graphically
19:57:49 <andythenorth_> and the < > arrows make for *very* small hit targets
19:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but what about the X key?
19:58:22 <Alberth> what about it? ie I don't see the connection
19:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause> assuming i set the button to invisible with the 3-click method
19:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> then i press X to revert it to visible
19:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and press X again
19:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> then it would turn to transparent, not invisible
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19:59:44 <andythenorth_> it can't be a push button if we have 3 values on it
19:59:49 <andythenorth_> it has to be some other control
20:00:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: using the X key must remember whether it was transparent or invisible the last time, so a 4th state
20:00:53 <Alberth> these icon buttons are for defining where 'x' toggles to right?, it is not that 'x' touches those icon buttons itself
20:01:24 <andythenorth_> the interaction of X with the transparency totally confuses me
20:01:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: x toggles all buttons that are not locked. the GUI may toggle individual buttons
20:01:33 <andythenorth_> I can't create a mental model for it
20:02:04 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: oh, now I see the confusion
20:02:58 <Alberth> I was under the impression that x toggles between visible and the state set by the icon button, unless the latter is locked, in which case you always get the state of the icon button
20:03:39 <andythenorth_> it's confusing :P
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20:05:36 <andythenorth_> what's good about the current behaviour?
20:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> everything except that the invisibility button is not labelled
20:06:24 <Rubidium> oh... going to make that idiot proof as well?
20:06:34 <Alberth> you can have different interpretations of the x toggle without running into trouble :p
20:10:59 <andythenorth_> there's no available modifier key other than ctrl?
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20:13:33 <Alberth> right mouse may be used for tooltips
20:13:56 <Rubidium> in theory (assuming you're still talking about the transparency window) you could use shift, but that's generally used for cost estimates
20:14:03 <Alberth> theoretically, there is also shift and alt, but openttd does not use them anywhere afaik
20:14:10 <Rubidium> the alt is used by window managers to move the screen, and as such can't be used
20:14:14 <andythenorth_> how does 'signs displayed' compare with 'signs invisible'?
20:14:39 <andythenorth_> Alberth: ^ that reduces one item yes / no?
20:14:42 <Rubidium> both have to be "visible" for the signs to be visible
20:14:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: transparent signs are text without background
20:15:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (at least that's for station signs)
20:15:09 <Alberth> no, as Eddi|zuHause just explained :)
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20:15:26 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: for normal signs too
20:15:51 <andythenorth_> why do I need a menu option for 'signs displayed' ?
20:15:58 <Alberth> andythenorth_: a sign has 3 states, invisible, text visible, text+background visible
20:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: sign visible: black text on company coloured background, sign transparend: company coloured text on transparent background, sign invisible: no text
20:16:34 <andythenorth_> but why also a menu option for it?
20:16:37 <andythenorth_> seems redundant
20:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: hysterical raisins
20:17:30 <andythenorth_> planetmaker reached same conclusion as me in his mockup - or made a mistake....
20:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: there's a reason why we're discussing unification :)
20:18:34 <andythenorth_> why don't we put every possible menu option in every menu - all the time
20:18:38 <andythenorth_> that will help the idiots :P
20:18:50 <andythenorth_> they'll always be able to find what they want...eventually
20:19:59 <Alberth> but we don't want the idiots here, we want the non-idiots
20:20:14 <andythenorth_> how are we doing with that? :)
20:20:33 <Alberth> I will leave shortly :p
20:21:09 <andythenorth_> in current transparency GUI...
20:21:28 <andythenorth_> it would make more sense to me if small button was 'lock' and had a lock icon on it
20:21:43 <andythenorth_> and ctrl-click changed transparency type
20:21:50 <andythenorth_> but change upsets people :)
20:22:39 <Alberth> but your aim is to set transparency with that window, not locking, isn't it?
20:23:25 <Alberth> to make it more clear we'd need to add lock buttons there
20:25:24 <andythenorth_> I kind of mean that
20:25:38 <andythenorth_> currently there is a small non-labelled toggle for fully / partial opaque
20:25:55 <andythenorth_> make a lock-toggle button with lock icon (bool)
20:26:11 <andythenorth_> use ctrl-click on main icon to decide fully / partial opaque
20:26:46 <Alberth> I'd use a triple click rather than ctl+click
20:27:06 <andythenorth_> but there's no good control for that ?
20:27:39 <Alberth> what about the idea proposed by our planet person?
20:28:01 <andythenorth_> those < > buttons are very hard to acquire
20:28:10 <Alberth> ie 3 different graphics
20:28:23 <Alberth> (and no <> buttons imho)
20:29:09 <planetmaker> I just wonder how obvious that will be to new users.
20:29:20 <planetmaker> Just like andy only discovered the ctrl+click today
20:29:46 <Alberth> 1 button, click goes to partial, click again goes to full (outline graphics?), click again goes to solid again
20:30:13 <Alberth> planetmaker: what do you do if you have partial and you want to change it?
20:30:36 <andythenorth_> if it uses a toggle on / off button, it might be counter-intuitive ;)
20:30:41 <andythenorth_> maybe we can fix that...
20:31:15 <Alberth> I think there is only one choice, namely click the button, and wow, I got invisible now
20:31:35 <Alberth> ie you cannot miss it
20:32:02 <Alberth> andythenorth_: true, not a toggle button, a push button is better
20:32:22 <andythenorth_> push, push, push
20:32:39 <andythenorth_> remind me - why change the current panel? except to add new items?
20:33:24 <Alberth> some andythenorth_ wanted a vertical row of icons? :p
20:33:46 <andythenorth_> it was just a suggestion :)
20:33:56 <andythenorth_> no charge for suggestions...
20:34:00 <andythenorth_> nor warranty :P
20:34:24 <Alberth> but I think we should keep the current row as is, perhaps move the light green buttons to the top and add the lock icon onto it, to make clear it has changed
20:34:33 <andythenorth_> ho that would work
20:34:53 <Alberth> andythenorth_: you are lucky you don't live in germany :)
20:35:08 <andythenorth_> I'd have to provide a warranty?
20:35:28 <Alberth> yep, you cannot deny liability
20:35:50 <Alberth> hence the MIT license is invalid there :)
20:36:19 <andythenorth_> GPL too probably
20:36:49 <andythenorth_> Alberth: if the three-click thing is weird, try ctrl-click or shift-click ;)
20:37:59 * Alberth should program a keyboard-upside-down+click :p
20:38:55 <andythenorth_> hold f1 and f12 whilst clicking :P
20:38:56 <Alberth> ok, thanks for the elaborate discussion
20:39:15 <andythenorth_> prevented me redrawing textile mill again
20:39:30 <Alberth> I thought you were done with it for now
20:39:33 <andythenorth_> which is net benefit to world I guess
20:39:40 <andythenorth_> I doubt it's going to improve much
20:40:14 <Alberth> just define it as optimal, as is
20:41:03 <Alberth> if people have criticism ask them to send a patch
20:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't like the 3-state idea...
20:42:54 <andythenorth_> I usually have catenary set to invisible
20:43:04 <andythenorth_> so that steam trams don't look stupid
20:43:19 <andythenorth_> now I have random bits of electrified track all over my network
20:43:29 <andythenorth_> didn't notice I had electrified track building selected
20:44:22 <andythenorth_> do we need roadtypes?
20:44:57 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, the transparency gui has 3 functions: i can toggle whether a category should be transparent, i can toggle whether transparency should be invisibility without actually changing the visibility, and i can exclude a category toggling with the X key
20:45:19 <Eddi|zuHause> when you replace it with a 3-state button, either function 1 or function 2 is removed
20:45:30 <andythenorth_> can't we just set a tile bit for catenary? And add a new building option...tram tracks w/catenary, without catenary
20:48:10 <Eddi|zuHause> you can make the X key three-state as well, but that only means you have to press X twice many times... which is IMHO a degration from current usability
20:48:30 <Eddi|zuHause> have i mentioned that i'm against the three-state button?
20:48:53 <Alberth> yes, but I don't understand why, exactly
20:49:24 <Alberth> perhaps because we have a different functioning of buttons and 'x' in our mind
20:49:57 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: how do you exclude a category toggling with the x key?
20:50:09 <andythenorth_> not that it matters...
20:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the lock icon
20:50:46 <andythenorth_> I see the point about function 1 & 2
20:51:28 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: as I see it, 'x' toggles between visible and other state. Other state is one of 3, controlled by the icon button. locking is when you want 'x' to always display 'other' state
20:51:52 <andythenorth_> just leave it as it is?
20:52:38 <Alberth> says the person tweaking textile mills forever :p
20:53:23 <andythenorth_> the current design is optimum for Eddi
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20:56:01 * andythenorth_ goes back to tweaking endlessly
20:56:02 <Alberth> perhaps I am missing something, but transparency and invisibility are too much related to have a drop-down and a button for them
20:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: imagine the following situation: i have bridges and houses set to "turn invisible" with the X key. now i want to temporarily have houses invisible but bridges visible, so i click on the houses button (twice, because it's three-state) to make houses invisible. now i click on the houses button again to make houses visible again. now i press "X", what should happen to houses now?
20:56:19 <andythenorth_> Alberth: the stuff in the menu completely confuses me
20:57:23 <andythenorth_> "Station names displayed" and "Transparent station signs" is apparently broken somehow
20:57:31 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: you don't want forced visibility?
20:57:57 <andythenorth_> transparent station signs is a totally pointless menu option
20:58:28 <andythenorth_> first I toggle sign 'display' on|off and then I can toggle sign transparency on|off
20:58:48 <andythenorth_> why not one menu item for that, instead of two, one of which is broken depending on the setting of the other
20:59:03 <andythenorth_> historical raisins probably :)
20:59:59 <andythenorth_> maybe something to do with waypoint signs?
21:00:16 <andythenorth_> so I can (1) choose stations, waypoints, or both, then (2) set all visible to transparent
21:00:20 <andythenorth_> still confusing
21:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't think i can explain my problem so you understand it, if you haven't understood it at this point.
21:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway. my opinion is: move the dropdown entries to the transparency gui, but don't tamper with the behaviour of the gui
21:03:39 <Alberth> I think I see the problem, but I cannot see how far reaching this problem is
21:04:01 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: I see the problem
21:04:06 <andythenorth_> it's valid imho
21:04:32 <Alberth> that is, what kinds of things do you want to exclude from the x toggle?
21:04:50 <andythenorth_> for me, I don't care about partial transparency, (I just use fully transparent) but that's a matter of taste and ymmv etc.
21:06:09 <andythenorth_> leaving the GUI alone might be best
21:06:23 <andythenorth_> although I'm sad that I didn't know about the lock
21:07:17 <andythenorth_> I've been irritated for years by accidentally turning trees back on with x key
21:08:20 <Alberth> and you never asked a question about it :(
21:08:35 <andythenorth_> never occurred to me that it would be on ctrl
21:08:44 <andythenorth_> and it's a pretty common shortcut :(
21:08:55 <andythenorth_> some of the GUI sucks
21:09:27 <andythenorth_> that's sad because of the wasted effort coding things
21:09:51 <andythenorth_> nice features that are never found :|
21:10:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the lock could get an extra row of buttons
21:12:18 <Eddi|zuHause> below the large button a row with half-width buttons "invisible" and "lock", although i have no idea how an "invisible" icon should look like
21:13:21 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: do you want a toggle transparent/invisible, and a 3 state visible/use-toggle-state/x where 'x' means switching between vissible and toggle state?
21:13:39 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: an outline of the icon?
21:13:54 <andythenorth_> invisible is an eye
21:14:16 <Alberth> but you need to see what you make invisible imho
21:14:53 <Eddi|zuHause> what you turn invisible is in the icon of the large button
21:15:05 <andythenorth_> the smaller buttons should be lock | opacity
21:15:13 <andythenorth_> I don't know what icon opacity would get
21:15:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it is just a generic button toggling between "shadow" and "invisible"
21:15:44 <andythenorth_> currently the lack of icon for opacity isn't the biggest problem in the world
21:16:31 <DanMacK> A shadow of a building///
21:25:46 <andythenorth_> what's a good tramset?
21:25:53 <andythenorth_> my game needs one
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22:39:51 * DanMacK has a mind to take a stab at Cindini again
22:46:00 <Eddi|zuHause> www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/1078.jpg <-- "realism": good/bad? :p
22:46:30 <DanMacK> Not as bad as the V200? on the Turntable
22:47:08 <Eddi|zuHause> (this is Hamburg main station, 1946)
22:48:10 <DanMacK> 1946... well, it was right after the war... Was DB short on passenger coaches?
22:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that, and usage was extremely high, because cities were short on food supply
22:57:06 <Eddi|zuHause> might have been a V160, don't remember, and not bothered to look up
23:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/950.jpg <-- that frequently happened to me in bridgebuilder
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23:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/776.jpg <-- one could say "what an idyllic scene", if the picture wasn't titled "Summer in Nikolajew (Ukraine), 1943"
continue to next day ⏵
