IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-27
⏴ go to previous day
01:55:52 *** supermop has joined #openttd
02:25:55 *** rhaeder1 has joined #openttd
04:42:19 *** cowsgomoo has joined #openttd
04:56:23 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
05:03:38 <k-man_> whats the benefit of wagon speed limits?
05:07:24 <k-man_> so there would be no point putting a very fast loco with speed limited wagons
06:24:10 *** DayDreamer has joined #openttd
06:37:35 *** Br33z4hSlut5 has joined #openttd
06:53:54 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
06:59:50 *** Cybertinus has joined #openttd
07:01:49 *** Progman has joined #openttd
07:14:29 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
07:20:49 *** gartral has joined #openttd
07:20:52 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
07:22:29 <gartral> idea: petition AI opponent too remove/rerout a station
08:03:52 *** Maarten has joined #openttd
08:14:06 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
08:21:40 *** ar3k is now known as ar3kaw
08:27:51 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
08:40:05 *** perk111 has joined #openttd
08:46:30 *** Kurimus has joined #openttd
08:47:28 <planetmaker> gartral, that'd require adding handling of such news item in all AIs ;-)
08:48:00 <planetmaker> And it will require to add this option to send messages of certain types to AIs in the first place
08:48:37 <planetmaker> I don't say it's a bad idea, though; actually it'd be nice, but I wonder about the details how it could and should behave
08:49:00 <planetmaker> What info would you give an AI and how?
08:50:20 <planetmaker> currently it sounds to me like LOTS of work for very little gain
08:50:52 *** ar3k is now known as ar3kaw
08:54:02 <planetmaker> well, that's like using a gun where you could have asked "can you please let me through" ;-)
08:54:34 *** amkoroew has joined #openttd
08:56:57 <planetmaker> I consider doing that in my yacd game... There's meanwhile hardly space to build somewhat sane tracks
08:57:17 <planetmaker> and 10 AIs build A LOT of roads and tracks you can't move anymore
08:58:20 <planetmaker> yeah... ChooChoo crashes, and TransAI and AroAI constantly ask for a take-over ;-)
08:58:43 <planetmaker> The latter two obviously are not competitive enough to handle less cargo
09:10:04 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
09:14:47 <Ammler> hehe, eveyone is playing yacd :-)
09:16:16 <planetmaker> well, needs testing ;-)
09:16:42 <planetmaker> it's really fun. You can - lo and behold - build realistic passenger networks which make sense
09:17:17 <planetmaker> Thus orders get easier. But you'll need to put more thought into how you organize your network. Which quite fun
09:18:28 <Ammler> maybe it would be easier and doable to make a very limited infrasharing, like "tranfer stations"
09:18:59 <planetmaker> well, but that's a totally different thing :-)
09:19:27 <Ammler> cargodist/dest are useless without for mp
09:20:03 <Ammler> they are not just sp only features, also just 1company only :-)
09:20:09 <planetmaker> Not really. But cargod*st does not solve any MP thing
09:20:31 <planetmaker> that's why they're different things.
09:20:39 <planetmaker> cargod*st is about where cargo wants to go.
09:20:55 <planetmaker> infrasharing is about how cargo can be transported
09:21:05 <Ammler> if it would be possible to tranfer cargo to another company, this could be saved
09:21:41 <planetmaker> it's just two entirely different things :-)
09:21:49 <planetmaker> which can but need not go hand in hand
09:22:15 <planetmaker> IS could allow one company per town with another doing the IC services. Would be nice, too.
09:22:21 <Ammler> well, at least for coop it should be useable :-)
09:22:21 <planetmaker> With or without cargod*st
09:23:51 <Ammler> ha, of course, so it works on MP too
09:24:11 <planetmaker> concerning IS, I think it is an intrinsic coop feature and can't be made MP-safe. But... don't share with people whom you don't trust, don't share with anyone by default
09:24:48 <planetmaker> No per-company settings for fees solves issues of unexpected fee changes, too
09:24:52 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
09:24:57 <Ammler> as said, there could be a limited sharing, only transfer between stations
09:25:07 <planetmaker> But stations are also tracks :-)
09:25:20 <Ammler> no sharing the same station
09:25:34 <planetmaker> Ah, I see what you mean
09:25:38 *** Adambean has joined #openttd
09:25:41 <Ammler> but you can like distant join to another station
09:26:09 <planetmaker> Yes... maybe that'd be an approach, too. Complementary to IS
09:26:17 <Ammler> and then maybe even define, which kind of cargo you like to share
09:26:57 <planetmaker> well. That's hard(er) than sharing everything in that station
09:27:09 <Ammler> well, IS2 won't be accepted as it is it intrusive or how that is called
09:27:50 <Ammler> planetmaker: yep, no need, you simply don't have to unload something on that station, you won't share
09:27:56 <planetmaker> not really. Because it had too many not quite satisfying solutions for what happens if sharing is changed
09:28:28 <planetmaker> the station approach might indeed solve that
09:28:32 <V453000> what are the Tal UK houses? I downloaded it from bananas but I cannot see it in the newgrf list :O
09:28:46 <planetmaker> V453000, UK houses
09:28:48 <V453000> and they are black-texted on bananas site too :|
09:29:08 <planetmaker> it's confusing. Maybe tell Pikka that :-)
09:29:27 <planetmaker> hm... not UK houses
09:29:34 <planetmaker> but UK houses and Industries. Or like that
09:29:35 <V453000> those arent in the list either :| only UK towns which say version 2.1 and the Tal thing said 0.3
09:29:40 <planetmaker> UK Houses are by Zephyris
09:29:57 <planetmaker> search for 0.3 ;-)
09:30:36 <Ammler> do existing connections have influence on yacd destinations?
09:30:45 <planetmaker> hm, I recently saw that newgrf in my list, so it does exist, V453000 :-)
09:30:53 <planetmaker> But I don't recall exactly its name
09:31:19 <planetmaker> which IMHO is the big advantage over cargodist
09:31:33 <V453000> it says it is downloaded, but .... just isnt in the newgrf list
09:31:39 <Ammler> so cargo distribution never changes?
09:32:04 <planetmaker> Dunno. It does adjust to changes of acceptance, suppy
09:32:07 <Ammler> planetmaker: well, existing connections should not rule, but also have influence
09:32:54 <Ammler> I mean, some cities here are closer, but we have a good connection to zürich, so we prefer to go there if we like to go to a city :-)
09:34:54 <Ammler> but fixed distribution might also be quite much desync stable
09:40:29 <V453000> wtf .. I even checked whether the newgrf is in the data folder - the zip or whatever it is was there, so I even unzipped it and put it in the directory, but it still isnt visible from game
09:41:53 <V453000> pm: could you please try to make a savegame that contains this newgrf and send it to me? :)
09:43:39 <gartral> well glad my idea has merrit. but i think i found a bug: I cannot buy stock in my competing company..
09:45:08 <gartral> and also, what value in the .sav files represents a companys' funds?
09:45:44 <Ammler> V453000: any custom openttd build?
09:45:58 <Ammler> maybe try another openttd version, the grf might have limits
09:46:00 <V453000> no, tried both stable and PS trunk
09:52:43 <Terkhen> gartral: if you want to change company fundings it will be way simpler to use the cheats than trying to hack the sav
09:54:48 * gartral didn't know there was intergrated cheats
09:57:26 <Terkhen> Ctrl + Alt + C, single player only obviously
09:57:44 <Terkhen> move to the company you want to edit and use the money cheat to reduce/increase funds
09:58:00 <Terkhen> then switch back to your company again
09:58:04 <gartral> is it possible and about my bug earlier?
09:58:20 <gartral> and about my bug earlier?
09:58:47 <Terkhen> I don't know, I never use shares
10:00:20 <gartral> also, AI "chopper" isn't working
10:02:06 <Yexo> gartral: chopper needs helicopters, if there aren't any it doesn't work
10:02:31 <gartral> Yexo: well i have helicopcters. chopper crashes on load
10:02:36 <Yexo> is buying shares enabled in the advanced settings?
10:02:40 <Yexo> it's under "competitors"
10:28:23 <planetmaker> V453000, yes, I can. Please remind me tonight, though
10:29:58 <planetmaker> gartral, sure, not every AI is guaranteed to work. It needs testing as it may also depend on the OpenTTD version (though it shouldn't)
10:33:58 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
10:38:10 * andythenorth ponders numerous things
10:38:20 <andythenorth> all very exciting
10:39:23 <andythenorth> newgrf support for YACD? :o :D
10:41:07 <planetmaker> you mean like FIRS' fishing grounds? ;-)
10:41:20 <andythenorth> cb to set the cargo destination weights
10:41:32 <andythenorth> probably per-industry rather than per-cargo
10:41:46 <andythenorth> but I'm not sure on the internals of YACD in that respect
10:43:21 * andythenorth also has been pondering canals
10:43:26 <andythenorth> why aren't canals much used?
10:43:31 <andythenorth> they should be prior to about 1900
10:43:41 <andythenorth> is it just a lack of boats?
10:44:06 <planetmaker> yes. And the previously bad boat path finder which made boats very stupid
10:44:14 <planetmaker> That luckily changed post 1.1.0 ;-)
10:44:34 <planetmaker> but there's not much need anymore to discourage the use of boats
10:45:10 <V453000> they still have endless capacity without colisions ;(
10:45:40 <andythenorth> so I should get on and add some canal boats to FISH?
10:45:54 * andythenorth liked the suggestion of hacking trams to be canal boats :P
10:46:23 <andythenorth> what else did I think of in my car journey
10:46:31 <andythenorth> car journeys result in a lot of ponies
10:46:47 <andythenorth> I want to add some boats to HEQS
10:47:01 <andythenorth> I know I have a ship set already...but I choose to overlook that :)
10:47:54 <planetmaker> don't mix transport types
10:48:09 <planetmaker> that makes for a pain to configure a new game
10:48:17 <andythenorth> HEQS has gone way past that already ;)
10:48:27 <andythenorth> that horse has bolted
10:48:51 <planetmaker> don't take that further, please
10:49:09 <planetmaker> adding all kind of transport modes to HEQS makes it less attractive
10:49:22 <planetmaker> rather split it into HEQS-RV, HEQS-trains, HEQS-ships, if you want
10:49:23 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd
10:50:07 <andythenorth> because MP games you like to restrict some transport types?
10:50:30 <planetmaker> not only. But because I maybe want the RV only to match *whatever*, but emphasize other aspects for boats
10:50:39 <planetmaker> thus one set with everything is a pain.
10:50:50 <planetmaker> Bad for scenario use and basically every design choice on newgrfs
10:51:07 <planetmaker> it removes a lot freedom to configure
10:51:08 <V453000> yeah, for example you want HEQS road, UKRS on rails, and newships on water
10:51:25 <V453000> would fit more like japan on rail with HEQS on road but meh ;)
10:51:44 <andythenorth> this is interesting :P
10:52:01 <andythenorth> your requirements are orthogonal to mine :D
10:52:22 <andythenorth> I just want to make a set that I like :)
10:52:24 <planetmaker> how so, andythenorth? What is difficult to have a different set for each transport type?
10:52:34 <andythenorth> only maintenance
10:52:47 <V453000> well when you create a map, it is nice to have as large freedom as possible, because there arent _that_ many possiblities overall :)
10:53:18 <andythenorth> the alternative is that I add some odd ships to FISH...which is possible
10:53:35 *** Intexon has joined #openttd
10:53:37 <andythenorth> but HEQS already has RV / tram / train / helicopter
10:53:56 <andythenorth> (helicopter is work in progress)
10:53:56 <planetmaker> woot? It has more than one train?
10:54:06 <planetmaker> when did that happen?
10:54:14 <andythenorth> it has one train ;)
10:54:23 <V453000> and well ... do you think somebody would use HEQS and FISH at the same time? that would make mess, ships from there, ships from here
10:54:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, and it's a bad precedence
10:54:58 <planetmaker> for one it's acceptable, but I'm not quite happy with it either, I have to admit
10:55:03 <planetmaker> Taking it further would sadden me
10:55:30 <planetmaker> it will make it quite less likely I'll use it. quite a lot
10:55:34 <andythenorth> I'm not dead set on it
10:55:47 <andythenorth> but if I accept your argument, I need to remove some of the existing things
10:55:48 <planetmaker> as it will force me on a certain style
10:57:10 <planetmaker> what does need removing? And... I'd call it 'moving'. Not removing ;-)
10:57:39 <andythenorth> I'd need to do HEQS -> trams
10:57:42 <andythenorth> and HEQS -> trains
10:57:50 <planetmaker> would make sense, yes
10:57:51 <andythenorth> and HEQS -> main
10:57:55 <andythenorth> and HEQS -> extra
10:58:11 <planetmaker> or what does 'main' constitute?
10:58:16 <andythenorth> the useful vehicles
10:58:20 <andythenorth> the ones in 'core' currently
10:58:27 <andythenorth> and 'extra' is the not-useful vehicles
10:58:45 <planetmaker> have each of these sets have that parameter and no such thing as 'main' is needed
10:58:56 <planetmaker> Just independent sets.
10:59:07 <planetmaker> With a somewhat shared code basis
10:59:10 <andythenorth> I don't follow the argument
10:59:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
10:59:29 <andythenorth> if the case is we don't want to configure, then configuring should be eliminated
10:59:37 <andythenorth> if the case is that configuring is ok, then configuring is ok
10:59:49 <andythenorth> or is it 'some configuring is ok, but not much' ?
11:01:11 <planetmaker> well, I see that HEQS has parameters to adjust things, admittedly I'm not 100% up to date with their extend at the moment. It's IMHO nicer to have the vehicle types in their own NewGRFs, but keeping them have configure options is, of course, fine
11:01:57 <planetmaker> My mode of NewGRF selection usually is: pick landscape. Pick train sets, pick rv sets, pick planes, pick ships, pick stations, pick objects, pick other stuff
11:02:27 <andythenorth> can you have multiple grfs in one tar?
11:02:35 <planetmaker> thus a joint newgrf makes breaks this coarse selection process.
11:03:10 <andythenorth> I am opposed to multiple grfs because (1) I don't want to use them (2) I don't want to maintain multiple bananas entries, release threads etc
11:03:15 <andythenorth> otherwise it would be fine
11:03:44 <planetmaker> (1) leads in the end to a monolithic newgrf only compatible with itself
11:03:47 <andythenorth> I wondered if we could write a makefile that would publish 6 grfs: 1 per vehicle type + 1 composite
11:04:34 <planetmaker> but I'd advice against the composite newgrf. It's redundant
11:05:20 <andythenorth> try this from another angle
11:05:29 <planetmaker> adding heqs* is not much of a difference than heqs-monolithic
11:05:32 <andythenorth> are the bulldozers really useful? I could just delete them
11:05:37 <andythenorth> same for rail-truck
11:05:56 <planetmaker> bulldozers are RVs. They can just stay where they are and how they are
11:06:07 * andythenorth will think on this
11:06:08 <planetmaker> I don't speak here about usefulness of any vehicle.
11:06:13 <andythenorth> the correct route isn't clear to me
11:06:28 <planetmaker> I speak only about the principle game design. Which IMHO is broken by newgrfs which provide several transport types
11:07:03 <planetmaker> Like the Japanese, they have their transport types also in separate newgrfs. That makes it nice to pick the stuff you want
11:07:54 <planetmaker> And IMHO it's not a concept which should be sacrificed on the sake of 'it's simpler to add only one newgrf' or 'it's simpler to maintain one release thread'
11:08:20 <andythenorth> I could maintain one grf for me personally
11:08:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, all I say (and want) is to have different transport modes in their respective newgrfs. No other change
11:08:26 <andythenorth> and a reduced HEQS for public
11:08:41 <planetmaker> why do you personally need ONE newgrf?
11:09:06 <andythenorth> I don't want to maintain multiple grfs, I have enough
11:09:14 <andythenorth> and I dislike small grfs that add just one vehicle
11:09:29 <andythenorth> I don't use them, and I find them somehow irritating
11:09:51 <andythenorth> there are other ways to achieve same result
11:09:53 <planetmaker> then, as long as you only have one for the other transport types, maybe create a heqs-misc - which adds one train, 2 ships and one helicopter
11:09:56 *** Doorslammer has joined #openttd
11:10:08 <andythenorth> that's not a bad suggestion
11:10:19 <planetmaker> like a heqs add-on
11:10:26 <planetmaker> like there are ukrs add-ons
11:10:48 <andythenorth> I think of all of HEQS as an add-on ;)
11:10:55 <planetmaker> well, yes, it is :-)
11:10:55 <andythenorth> it was never intended to be a primary set
11:11:12 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
11:11:16 <planetmaker> it's also never for me. so maybe 'add-on' was the wrong word
11:11:40 <andythenorth> this might be easy
11:11:51 <andythenorth> just make the defaults 'off' for the esoteric vehicles
11:12:08 <andythenorth> same as snowplough in one of the us sets
11:12:26 <andythenorth> that solves the MP config?
11:12:36 <andythenorth> I don't doubt the issue you describe btw
11:13:30 <andythenorth> some of the vehicles I want to add are pure easter egg / eye candy
11:13:37 <andythenorth> they don't need to be on by default
11:13:54 <planetmaker> hm, that might be a solution, too. If you add only one, two 'extras', leaving them off by default would work, too
11:14:04 <andythenorth> I think that's a nice solution
11:14:26 <planetmaker> it supports the lazy approach of "add newgrf, don't mind the configuration"
11:14:28 <andythenorth> so the rail truck should be off by default?
11:14:36 <andythenorth> I think it should
11:14:44 <andythenorth> I've already seen someone think it was part of UKRS
11:14:47 <planetmaker> ^ satisfied with that, too V453000 ? :-)
11:14:59 <andythenorth> there's nothing in game to indicate which vehicle is which grf...
11:15:12 <planetmaker> hm, also not the debug tool?
11:15:37 <planetmaker> I can't check right now. For all land tiles the query tool tells you
11:16:00 <andythenorth> interestingly the debug appears not to say
11:16:01 <Terkhen> I like that approach too
11:16:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth, that might be a feature request ;-)
11:16:17 <andythenorth> maybe I should add a HEQS icon to buy menu
11:16:23 <andythenorth> or a text string in buy menu
11:16:28 <planetmaker> or... actually it should also be visible w/o debug tools
11:16:37 <planetmaker> the buy menu by default doesn't need it
11:16:48 <andythenorth> (in the info panel...)
11:17:11 <planetmaker> like a query tool for vehicles ;-)
11:17:17 <planetmaker> vehicle list could list it
11:17:27 <planetmaker> well, very low priority ;-)
11:18:13 <andythenorth> the challenge of YACD is much less when most secondary industry has closed down
11:20:10 <planetmaker> I have in my yacd game some oil rigs with 100% destination to one oil refinery. And others don#t seem to have any.
11:20:18 <planetmaker> I shall see what they'll do once I connect them
11:23:56 * Ammler redirects the credits to frosch (grf2html) :-)
11:24:13 <planetmaker> still. I use it a lot :-)
11:24:58 <planetmaker> no better way there to get a quick overview over a certain aspect of the 5 grf files
11:25:24 <Ammler> that is maybe the best php (and only?) I have ever written :-)
11:25:45 <Ammler> you can also combine ranges and grfs, btw.
11:26:27 <planetmaker> yes, I know. But I always will have to figure out. And usually I need only one
11:26:57 <andythenorth> yapf seems happy to go a long way with ships without bouys
11:27:20 <Ammler> andythenorth: define "happy" ;-)
11:27:28 <andythenorth> it doesn't complain
11:27:28 <planetmaker> but using buoys still will make it faster
11:27:32 <andythenorth> or use excessive CPU
11:27:58 <Ammler> andythenorth: how many ships?
11:28:01 <planetmaker> most notably they go a much straighter and a way more predicatable path
11:29:08 <Ammler> now watch cpu usage and pause/unpause the ships
11:30:08 <andythenorth> makes a difference
11:30:14 <andythenorth> 26 is not a lot ;)
11:30:35 <andythenorth> my games are ship-centric
11:30:39 <Ammler> I guess, your pc might not be able to run that many
11:31:18 <andythenorth> yapf used to slow down badly with that many
11:32:29 <Ammler> planetmaker: your improvements to factory are very nice, a pitty it uses 3 times the same
11:32:56 <planetmaker> well, yes. But that can't be changed. Only possibly in a later version of OpenGFX+ Industries
11:33:03 <Ammler> I fear, unresolveable for base set
11:34:28 <Ammler> well, improving construction stages aren't that worth anyway
11:34:38 <planetmaker> well, I think they are :-)
11:34:40 <Ammler> that is why nobody did it yet
11:34:54 <planetmaker> but more important are the final stages, of course
11:35:02 <Ammler> that is why you had to do it self :-P
11:35:14 <planetmaker> and it was fun to change the construction stage
11:37:28 * andythenorth tries a game with no ISR
11:39:22 <Ammler> adding isr is easy, removing is hard :-)
11:40:35 <Ammler> I guess, the only newgrf, which really needs to be added before start are industry sets, right?
11:41:14 <andythenorth> yeah, you can add other newgrfs at any time to a running game ;)
11:41:20 <andythenorth> just use the newgrf menu ;)
11:41:38 <Ammler> well, I meant adding without bad cause
11:41:57 <andythenorth> I add during games no problem
11:42:03 <andythenorth> removing....less advised :P
11:42:25 <Ammler> but adding industry sets doesn't work, does it?
11:42:40 <andythenorth> well....it would be quite not-optimal
11:43:33 <planetmaker> Ammler, you could probably also do that. But *every* industry set modifies the default industries
11:43:51 <Ammler> I thought, the issue is more with cargo
11:43:55 <andythenorth> I want to connect the farms (grey) to the stockyard (purple)
11:44:03 <Ammler> saw some strange screens about
11:44:06 <planetmaker> you could probably do with an add-on. And you should not mess with cargos
11:44:09 <andythenorth> and I don't have decent trucks yet
11:44:17 <andythenorth> so what should I do?
11:44:30 <andythenorth> one train just running back and forth with timetabled waits?
11:44:39 <andythenorth> a feeder system?
11:44:55 <Ammler> correctly I should have said, the only exception are cargosets :-)
11:45:12 <Ammler> which most industry sets are too
11:45:37 <planetmaker> Ammler, possibly yes, but I haven't dwelled on it sufficiently to know its intricacies
11:45:42 <Ammler> I still hope, andythenorth will sometime make firs light with no cargo changes :-)
11:45:50 <andythenorth> what would be gained?
11:46:02 <andythenorth> compared to say, opengfx+ industries?
11:46:21 <andythenorth> but they accept / produce different cargos to default...
11:46:41 <planetmaker> But I guess ^ makes it hard / not worthwhile
11:47:11 <planetmaker> Rather have OpenGFX+ Industries define additional layouts 'stolen' from FIRS. But that'd be probably 2.0 or so
11:48:05 <Yexo> opengfx+industries also changes the cargoes
11:48:29 <planetmaker> hm, indeed, it does. Has to.
11:48:35 <Yexo> it has to, cargoes from arctic are by default not available in temperate
11:49:03 <Ammler> so it does add cargos, does it also change?
11:49:18 <Yexo> yes, depending on the climate
11:50:06 <Ammler> maybe we have different things in mind
11:50:30 <Ammler> is it possible to add ogfx+industries to a existing default game?
11:50:51 <Yexo> an existing game with industries? not a good idea
11:50:55 <Yexo> same as for other industry sets
11:50:58 <Yexo> it might work to some extend
11:51:17 <Ammler> hmm, you didn't follow the discussion
11:52:25 <Ammler> the only newgrfs, you can't add to a running games are those with cargo changes, right?
11:52:54 <Yexo> cargo changes are possible after a game started
11:53:14 <Yexo> it's probably not a good idea though if there are any industries in the game that make use of those cargoes already
11:54:11 <Ammler> right, so if you add newgrfs with cargo changes, you have to remove the existing "bad" industries
11:54:19 <Terkhen> opengfx+ industries redefines almost everything (cargos, industries and most industry tiles); I don't know what happens if you add it to a running game but it probably will create a mess
11:54:39 <Terkhen> the industries have the override and substitute properties properly set, though
11:55:03 <Yexo> if all tiles also have the override property set, it might work somewhat
11:55:21 <Yexo> in general I'd advise strongly against adding it to a game with existing industries
11:55:27 <peter1139> i guess i need to checkout yacd, right?
11:55:49 <Terkhen> hmm... but only industry tiles without cargo acceptance are missing override (and redefinition)
11:56:27 <Ammler> does that matter for already built industries?
11:58:27 <Ammler> Yexo: Terkhen, maybe there could be a reset_industry like reset_vehicles, so if you add industry set, it does replace the existing
11:58:56 <Yexo> that can only work as long as there are no industries on the map
11:58:59 <Terkhen> I'm not sure if it would work in most cases
11:59:08 <Ammler> Yexo: then there is no need
11:59:12 <Terkhen> reset_vehicles fixes existing vehicles?
11:59:36 <Yexo> sure? I thought it only reset the newgrf ID allocation
11:59:48 <Ammler> Yexo: isn't that a fix?
12:01:43 <Yexo> oh, I was thinking about reset_enginepool
12:02:09 <Yexo> I can't think of a useful "resetengines" alternative for industries though
12:05:53 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd
12:33:58 <Ammler> Yexo: reset industries with the new ones?
12:34:24 <Ammler> according to subsitute
12:34:43 <Yexo> there is no way a reset of the industry tiles could work
12:34:46 <Ammler> all properities except tiles
12:34:49 <Yexo> so you'll have broken graphics
12:34:59 <Yexo> which means bug reports from users -> useless feature
12:35:38 <Ammler> hmm, then remove the industry and place the new one on same place if possible
12:36:35 <Ammler> in worst case all industries are gone, which is not that bad either
12:40:42 <Yexo> I honestly don't see the point of trying to do all that
12:40:48 <Yexo> just don't mess with newgrfs in savegames
12:43:29 <Ammler> Yexo: well, we don't need that official speak here ;-)
12:44:07 <Ammler> the issue is mainly with scenarios
12:44:10 <Yexo> <Yexo> I honestly don't see the point of trying to do all that <- that still stands
12:44:28 <Yexo> yes, I know the issue is mainly with scenarios
12:44:41 <Yexo> if you want to add an industry newgrf later, don't add any industries at all
12:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> a remove_all_industries command ;)
12:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> (well, that is useful enough to also be in the industry window of the scenario editor)
12:47:54 <Ammler> Yexo: also if you make the scenario self, there is no such issue ;-)
12:53:42 <Terkhen> I coded something like that for towns and industries before being convinced that an alternate scenario format would be a better solution
12:53:49 <Terkhen> it did not work very well
12:59:42 <Terkhen> hmm... I could rescue the "remove" parts of the queue
13:00:04 <Terkhen> removing worked fine, but it was only console commands
13:00:07 <Ammler> well, remove all would be a good start and not really hurt
13:04:09 * andythenorth has been thinking about FIRS supplies
13:04:14 <andythenorth> I have half of an ide
13:04:57 <andythenorth> two rows of identical icons in transparency window?
13:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> half ideas are dangerous weapons in your hands
13:05:09 <andythenorth> crowd-sourced GUIs do not convince me :|
13:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, that's silly
13:05:26 <andythenorth> it's one of the most stupidest things I've seen
13:05:34 <andythenorth> design should be taught in school
13:05:57 <andythenorth> along with many other things that aren't, but we have to then teach ourselves to get through life
13:06:09 <andythenorth> school was almost entirely pointless as far as I can recall
13:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> # Your face it haunts
13:06:17 <Eddi|zuHause> # my once pleasant dreams
13:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> # Your voice it chased away
13:06:20 <Eddi|zuHause> # all the sanity in me
13:06:46 * andythenorth shouldn't be criticising other peopl
13:07:01 <andythenorth> at least until (a) he finishes a word before hitting enter key
13:07:15 <andythenorth> and (b) doesn't write sentences like 'the most stupidest things I've seen'
13:07:24 <andythenorth> which makes perfect sense, but it stupid in multiple ways
13:07:59 * andythenorth has a head cold - blame it on that
13:08:11 <andythenorth> the unit could be much larger
13:08:15 <Ammler> where does that sed word? :-)
13:08:17 <andythenorth> like 'consignment' or such
13:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> what the hell is a 'consignment'?
13:09:06 <andythenorth> it's only half an idea so far
13:09:19 <andythenorth> I like the '1 per month' behaviour, mostly because it's same as towns
13:09:34 <andythenorth> but I want to be able to deliver supplies with bigger vehicles
13:09:43 <Terkhen> the current behaviour is simple and keeps micromagement to a minimum
13:10:03 <Ammler> you can transport other things, if you like bigger vehicles
13:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like a progressive value, like "for every production increase, demand 1 more per month"
13:10:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's possible, likely even
13:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> also, "within the last 30 days" is better than "within this month"
13:13:47 <Ammler> something else is there a opensource alternative to the anno series?
13:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i never played any of the anno games...
13:16:19 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: the most successful German game :-o
13:16:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so? i already played siedler, so i have german games covered :p
13:16:54 <Terkhen> that sounds interesting, but it would need too much micromanagement IMO
13:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: why? you'd still need quite some time to not get along with one cargo wagon per month, and at that point, you have so much increase that you need to adjust the general transport capacity anyway
13:18:42 <aber> unknown-horizons in heavy development
13:19:11 <Terkhen> because right now I can keep my supplies capacity constant and I don't need to come back to it once it works
13:19:50 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I like that too
13:22:02 <Terkhen> with increasing requirements for supplies, I would need to mirror any changes of the main network in the supplies network, for me it would be like duplicating work
13:27:04 <peter1139> hmm, right, yacd is hard :p
13:28:45 <Ammler> Terkhen: andythenorth: maybe partial unload?
13:29:03 * andythenorth wonders how yacd and supplies will work together
13:29:11 <andythenorth> haven't got that far in my game yet
13:29:25 <Terkhen> I'm starting my yacd test game now too :P
13:29:33 <Ammler> ah indeed, yacd already would cover that
13:30:17 <Ammler> else a order setting like unload x% only
13:30:27 <Terkhen> only passengers until I understand how it works
13:31:25 <Ammler> e.q you full load and go to 5 industies and unload 20% on each
13:33:59 <andythenorth> Ammler: I think yacd works differently to that ;)
13:34:07 <andythenorth> partial unload isn't needed
13:34:14 <andythenorth> or is that your point?
13:35:56 <Ammler> how else does yacd work then?
13:37:37 <Ammler> you will have automatically 1/5 supplies for your 5 industries, won't you?
13:38:01 <andythenorth> in the yacd case that's not my choice
13:38:09 <andythenorth> yacd decides for me
13:38:24 <Ammler> but that is what yacd does, dosn't it?
13:38:51 <Ammler> it does partially unload
13:39:23 <Ammler> just that the parts are splitted on generating already
13:46:12 <Terkhen> hmm... I'm starting to understand yacd
13:46:22 <Terkhen> which allows me to understand why I'm close to bankruptcy
13:47:20 <Terkhen> passengers will pick up a bus if it will get them close to their destination?
13:48:53 *** Absurd-Mind has joined #openttd
13:50:05 <andythenorth> none of you played railroad tycoon 3?
13:50:25 <andythenorth> it's quite similar in some ways
13:50:30 <andythenorth> cargo packets with destinations
13:50:37 <andythenorth> the problem is we don't have auto-consist :)
13:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i played railroad tycoon 1 for a while, but i didn't fully understand it back then...
13:51:05 <andythenorth> rt 1 and 2 were more like to ttd
13:51:51 <Terkhen> hmm... this could help me enjoy building passenger networks again
13:52:22 <andythenorth> it does renew the game :)
13:52:33 * andythenorth might have to redesign FIRS though :P
13:56:58 <andythenorth> making money on PAX is very easy
13:57:13 <andythenorth> just don't connect towns that don't have much traffic between them, or....you lose :P
13:59:23 <Terkhen> what things in FIRS would need changes?
13:59:32 <andythenorth> production values
13:59:38 <andythenorth> among other things
14:01:05 <Terkhen> would these changes conflict with non YACD games?
14:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a question of balance... i tend to think production values are generally too high
14:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> although YACDest might solve that while fewer destinations are connected
14:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid to start a YACDest game, because it won't have all the comfortable bits of chills patch pack...
14:03:31 <Ammler> does it split the cargo to all possible destinations or is there a kind of threshold?
14:03:54 <Eddi|zuHause> especially timetables
14:03:55 <andythenorth> 4t / month is not a lot of cargo to ship 200 tiles
14:04:05 <andythenorth> and with production ratios...it can result in no secondary cargo
14:04:57 <andythenorth> Ammler: try a game and see ;)
14:04:57 <Ammler> andythenorth: too many destinations, so the issue is too many industries
14:05:17 <Ammler> not too less production :-)
14:06:03 <Ammler> andythenorth: I prefer talking about something I just guess instead to find out self ;-)
14:06:23 <Lucas> I have a small question. Does the version of OS X already exist the possibility of automatic conversion of trains on the new models?
14:06:32 *** lasershock has joined #openttd
14:06:53 <Ammler> Lucas: the different arch versions don't differ in gameplay fucntions
14:07:39 <Ammler> so openttd 1.1.0 for windows plays equal to your osx version, think about multiplayer
14:08:30 <Ammler> and of course autorenew/replace exists for ages already
14:08:55 <Ammler> with better and worse working versions :-)
14:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i can't start a game in YACDest. it quickly displays a landscape with roads, and then returns to the main menu
14:12:16 <Lucas> Ammler: no autorenew but automatyiclly buy better version of train and repleace line
14:13:02 <Ammler> no, that isn't possible
14:13:22 <Lucas> TTD Patch could do this
14:13:24 <Ammler> I am just aware of newgrf feature, not implemented in openttd which can that,
14:13:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
14:13:41 <Ammler> Lucas: not ttdp, newgrf
14:14:06 <Ammler> e.q. there is a newgrf for dbset
14:14:11 <Lucas> nowgrf - whats the name of this?
14:14:53 <Lucas> can find many newgrf files in update section
14:15:13 <Ammler> as said, this newgrf feature isn't supported by openttd
14:15:31 <Ammler> and it is still not automatically, it is defined by the newgrf
14:16:26 <Lucas> so i have to change it manully :(
14:16:35 <Ammler> you can use autoreplace
14:17:20 <Ammler> what is bad about that?
14:17:22 <Lucas> this only auto renew trains
14:18:05 <Ammler> autoreplace is the gui thing, where you can select vehicles you want to replace with
14:18:05 <Lucas> because u have to buy new trains manually for example electric ones
14:18:28 <Ammler> autorenew is just a adv. setting
14:18:58 <Lucas> where I can setup autoreplace?
14:20:50 <Eddi|zuHause> somehow generating games with alpine climate is broken
14:21:51 <Ammler> I am quite sure, you won't miss the newgrf feature
14:22:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling it's the new house-startdate-thing
14:23:14 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: if not ogfx+, didn't you hack the other newgrf already anyway? :-)
14:23:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it works with start date 1931
14:24:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: got a town name "GroßHerzogsingen" <-- missing a space?
14:28:55 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
14:30:28 *** rhaeder has joined #openttd
14:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the point is, it worked before, and now it's broken
14:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: newgrfs shouldn't get broken by code changes, unless there's a very good reason
14:32:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the real question is: why does the house-startdate not work
14:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> alpine doesn't actually add any houses, so why is it different than temperate
14:34:55 <Ammler> maybe that is done like with industries, substitute and remove the old
14:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: but it doesn't change property 0A
14:39:02 <Ammler> the difference is from trunk to yacd or just newer nightly?
14:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause> difference from old trunk to new trunk
14:44:07 * andythenorth can't figure out a good strategy for freight in yacd
14:44:29 *** ctibor|spi has joined #openttd
14:51:45 <andythenorth> why would my train be unloading freight at intermediate stations when it's headed to the endpoint destination for these cargo packets?
14:52:03 <andythenorth> that's unhelpful
14:52:24 <andythenorth> I don't want to use non-stop, that shouldn't be needed
14:57:26 <Terkhen> IMO that's a bug, the cargo should stay if the present vehicle is going to its destination
14:58:41 <Rubidium> Terkhen: depends... maybe there's a quicker route from there
14:58:53 <Yexo> that's non-trivial, what should happen if a vehicle goes A>B>C>D>C>A, at B it picks up cargo for A, brings it to C
14:58:58 <Yexo> should it unload or continue?
14:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> pathfinder should get a penalty for exiting the vehicle
14:59:18 <Rubidium> and as it generates cargo with 4 characteristics, it'll make different choices per packet regarding staying in the vehicle or not
14:59:39 <andythenorth> the vehicle is going A>B>C
14:59:43 <andythenorth> C is the destination
14:59:52 <andythenorth> it's dropping off at B
15:00:18 <Yexo> yes, that case is simple, it should stay on the vehicle (at least if there is no alternative faster connection to C)
15:00:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it might be one of the balancing effects
15:00:22 <Terkhen> is there a different path for going from B to C in your game, andy?
15:00:36 <Rubidium> so... when PFs are involved: savegame!
15:00:36 <andythenorth> not for this cargo
15:00:41 <andythenorth> there is a partial cargo
15:00:47 <andythenorth> partial link sorry
15:01:05 <andythenorth> there are two trains on the ABC route
15:01:34 <andythenorth> I wonder if train 1 is dropping at B because train 2 passes through there too
15:02:06 <andythenorth> and in other news
15:02:13 <andythenorth> secondary industry closing sucks
15:02:18 <andythenorth> dunno why I turned that on
15:02:41 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
15:03:22 <Ammler> andythenorth: then you implemented it wrongly ;-)
15:05:43 <Belugas> underwear for feet? (with wrong spelling)
15:09:03 <andythenorth> Ammler: leaves my map with only one of each secondary industry
15:09:15 <andythenorth> years before I have a chance to connect them
15:09:56 <Ammler> then you enabled closing but didn't enable respawn?
15:14:54 <andythenorth> how do I do that?
15:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but only one target is better for YACDest :p
15:31:54 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd
15:32:21 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
15:38:11 <andythenorth> the trains from A>C that are dropping at B...
15:38:19 <andythenorth> are picking up at B on their way from C>A
15:38:28 <andythenorth> so I guess non-stop is the only option :P
15:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> using B as explicit order or automatic order?
15:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> seems that part is buggy then
15:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> try explicit order
15:42:54 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
15:45:01 <Ammler> andythenorth: but it is a bug
15:45:31 <andythenorth> or I misunderstood
15:46:14 <Ammler> what wpuld happen, if you have e.g. 2 coal mines and one drop in your line?
15:46:43 <andythenorth> I need to try some of that
15:46:50 <andythenorth> I don't have enough industry left on my map :P
15:46:58 <Ammler> but for sure you know, what _should_ happen :-)
15:48:11 * andythenorth wants to start a new game
15:49:02 *** cowsgomoo is now known as KOPOBA
15:55:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i have the weird feeling with "normal" industries i just got fewer industries than with "few" industries
15:55:42 <andythenorth> I have changed my game to 'high'
15:56:09 <andythenorth> plenty of money, but the fun disappeared quickly
15:56:36 *** sla_ro|vista has joined #openttd
15:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "225.180.088.795.136.024% to local destinations"
15:59:11 <Terkhen> good luck with that delivery :)
16:02:43 <Markk> Is there a way to share infrastructure now?
16:03:55 <Terkhen> Markk: there have been many patches that try to implement infrastructure sharing, but none of them was finished
16:19:55 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that's a low percentage compared to mine ;-)
16:20:08 <planetmaker> and yes, that town name mentioned earlier is missing a space
16:23:06 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i think the station gui should allow different display methods similar to CargoDist. in CargoDist i usually show via-destination-source, in YACDest i'd probably want via-transfer-destination(-source)
16:24:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "via" as primary display is the easiest to sort out bottlenecks (apart from graphical capacity view)
16:26:38 <Rubidium> doesn't one of the buttons already toggle through a number of display methods?
16:30:05 <Eddi|zuHause> right, i overlooked that
16:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> but it doesn't remember the setting
16:32:55 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Looks like automatic orders are borked right now, probably because of some of the last trunk commits for automatic orders. Got a bit too few testing I supposed as I usually play with non-stop orders :)
16:37:59 * andythenorth lost another YACD game
16:38:03 <andythenorth> time for a new one...
16:38:12 <planetmaker> how do you loose them?
16:38:31 <andythenorth> in this case, trying to start with coal
16:38:40 <planetmaker> hm, well, that might be more difficult.
16:38:50 <andythenorth> I had quite a lot of mines and secondary destinations close together
16:38:54 <planetmaker> I haven't yet tested industries too much, but PAX seems easier for starters
16:39:01 <andythenorth> I thought I could run a couple of big trains back and forth along a main line
16:39:04 <andythenorth> with smaller feeders
16:39:06 <planetmaker> but I started with low industry density
16:39:37 <andythenorth> but I didn't check destinations before building routes :P
16:40:32 <Ammler> if a destination closes, doens't the cargo, which was meant there be splitted to the remaing dests?
16:41:08 <Ammler> so you were lucky, the secondaries closes
16:42:24 <Ammler> also maybe you should start without firs :-)
16:42:58 <andythenorth> I think manifest trains are going to fail for primary cargo
16:43:13 <andythenorth> so now I'm trying a different approach
16:43:30 <andythenorth> I want to do things like drop all wood to a log sort, then ship it out on point-point unit trains
16:49:08 *** bdavenport has joined #openttd
17:08:38 *** Dreamxtreme has joined #openttd
17:10:46 <andythenorth> hilly map, weight multiplier 6, 1881 with NARS 2
17:10:55 <andythenorth> I'm not making a profit :P
17:10:58 <andythenorth> but the cargo moves ok
17:16:38 <andythenorth> michi_cc: maybe I overlooked this in the thread....
17:16:52 <andythenorth> ...relationship of station rating and % transported is changed from default?
17:19:06 <michi_cc> % transported simply counts everything transported (including destinations that you don't service). Your stations will only get cargo according to the station rating, just like in plain trunk.
17:20:56 <Ammler> michi_cc: how can be >100%?
17:21:39 <michi_cc> If you mean the percentage behind each destination line: ignore it. It will go away in the next release as it doesn't show what you might think.
17:26:59 *** JVassie_ has joined #openttd
17:27:27 <andythenorth> I'm wondering why 4t out of 36t is transported at a forest
17:27:32 <andythenorth> station rating is 42%
17:27:36 <andythenorth> there are vehicles waiting
17:27:52 <andythenorth> might be be my mistake .... I'll watch it some more
17:28:20 *** Doorslammer has joined #openttd
17:28:21 <andythenorth> michi_cc: cargo production pays no attention to quality of upstream links?
17:28:38 <andythenorth> i.e. distributed amount only depends on rating of first station?
17:29:57 <andythenorth> maybe my maths is just bad
17:30:06 <andythenorth> this month I get 11t out of 36t
17:30:15 <andythenorth> vehicle has been waiting for last 3 months
17:30:35 <andythenorth> station rating is currently 58%
17:32:18 * andythenorth builds some pax routes to get some money
17:32:34 <andythenorth> "this channel brought to you by andythenorth's stream of consciousness"
17:32:39 * andythenorth mistakes irc for twitter
17:33:13 <michi_cc> There's a subtle bug in the path cost limiting code that causes more paths as intended to be excluded from the suitable paths. I've already fixed that localy. You can work around for now by increasing economy.cargodest.max_route_penalty[0]
17:34:26 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
17:34:29 <michi_cc> Double or something like that. If you get more cargo then, that's the reason.
17:35:31 <planetmaker> hehe, andythenorth , obviously AIAI finds the Gmund road vehicle a sensible means to transport goods
17:35:47 <Ammler> michi_cc: if you ask Rubidium to make binaries and you won't use openttd.org, you have a go from us to use bundles.openttdcoop.org :-)
17:35:55 <andythenorth> give it some trailers, it might be excellent :P
17:35:56 <planetmaker> from the oil refinery to downtown
17:36:22 <michi_cc> Ammler: Thanks for the offer, but I can always host at my own site.
17:36:35 <andythenorth> michi_cc: what would be a suitable amount? 400?
17:36:37 <planetmaker> Ammler: sure. I offered it already. And Rb suggested it ;-)
17:36:46 <planetmaker> but there aren't.
17:37:22 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Yeah, looks good. If you have very long routes maybe even 600. Just remember to reset it when the fixed version is out :)
17:37:25 <planetmaker> but I think it makes sense to have nightlies for YACD
17:38:04 <planetmaker> michi_cc: people might recall the devzone as cargodist is already there ;-)
17:38:24 <michi_cc> Let's squash the major bugs first, then we can do nightlies.
17:38:39 <planetmaker> i.e. it's no real setup work for anyone
17:38:51 <planetmaker> and already scripted
17:39:08 <andythenorth> would definitely be nice to have a default timetabled wait :P
17:39:16 <Ammler> I guess, the CF supports other locations also without script changes
17:39:37 <Ammler> just needs a scp location afaik
17:40:25 <Ammler> well, the offer is made, up to you :-)
17:42:36 <andythenorth> michi_cc: I set 400 and ran it for a couple of months. 16t out of 48t. Station rating is 74%
17:42:49 <andythenorth> Destination is next station on a simple A>B route
17:43:03 <Rubidium> Ammler: feels like there are more outstanding offers than actually being built binaries ;)
17:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22377 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt spanish.txt):
17:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 3 changes by IPG
17:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
17:45:55 <michi_cc> andythenorth: src/cargodest.cpp line 765, replace DistanceManhattan by DistanceSquare.
17:46:23 <michi_cc> andythenorth: If you still get not enough cargo with that change you might have found a new bug :)
17:46:46 * andythenorth is happy to serve ;)
17:47:30 <michi_cc> Oh, and if you say simple tram service, is it town local or between towns/industries?
17:47:50 <andythenorth> primary industry > secondary industry
17:49:10 <michi_cc> Okay, there you should be able to get everything. Town local traffic on the other hand will always have some part that you won't be able to transport due to source and dest tile being too near.
17:51:04 <andythenorth> michi_cc: with the change to DistanceSquare I have 32t of 48t against a 73% station rating ;)
17:51:12 <andythenorth> works better according to my maths
17:51:34 <Ammler> Rubidium: not aware of another outstanding offer :-)
17:53:26 *** ZirconiumX has joined #openttd
17:54:15 <ZirconiumX> What is the AI API function for the end of a list
17:54:42 <ZirconiumX> .End() doesn't work -neither does .Finish()
17:54:49 <ZirconiumX> while (!townlist.Finish())
17:54:58 <ZirconiumX> is my code in question
17:55:14 <andythenorth> why does engine pool deserve to remain in advanced settings?
17:55:18 <andythenorth> just enable it by default
17:55:27 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
17:56:44 *** DanMacK has joined #openttd
18:00:33 <planetmaker> michi_cc: I just fond an oddity where the train stops loading for some reason. See forums thread
18:03:58 <michi_cc> planetmaker: Online conent doesn't find the used version of german townnames and wallyweb objects
18:06:12 <planetmaker> and forgot the townnames
18:07:18 <planetmaker> anything else missing?
18:11:18 <michi_cc> german-townsnames.grf is still missing
18:13:06 * Zuu_ wonders why he can't ctrl+click on orders to go to the order location
18:13:34 <Zuu_> /orders/timetable lines/
18:17:37 <planetmaker> it's not the one within the linked zip?
18:17:48 <andythenorth> michi_cc: that fix has flooded my network with cargo :o :D
18:18:20 <michi_cc> OpenTTD says it isn't. Well, it works without, who cares about proper town names :)
18:20:02 <planetmaker> it's mine, I may distribute it without readme ;-)
18:20:38 <frosch123> so, yacd does not prefer towns starting with H ? :p
18:20:50 *** lasershock has joined #openttd
18:20:56 <andythenorth> michi_cc: got another interesting problem
18:21:08 <andythenorth> got an industry which is distributing cargo somehow
18:21:17 <andythenorth> but not to the only station nearby
18:21:23 <andythenorth> so I don't know where it's going :P
18:21:59 <michi_cc> planetmaker: Okay, bug found. The consecutive orders 4 and 1 have the same station, which confused the route pre-fill from orders. When I exclude that from pre-fill and cycle the orders once it loads the cargo.
18:22:02 <planetmaker> click on the destination in the industry window
18:22:15 <planetmaker> michi_cc: didn't get better when I change that, though
18:22:45 <planetmaker> though... hm, I didn't cycle then
18:22:48 <michi_cc> planetmaker: toggle non-stop on an order, that retriggers the pre-fill, and then cycle once
18:28:38 <ZirconiumX> You get slightly worried - when OpenTTD gives
18:29:15 <ZirconiumX> Your script made an error: the index 'AIAbstractList' does not exist
18:29:37 <ZirconiumX> I think I should revert to 1.0API
18:32:05 <ZirconiumX> Yexo, Zuu_, Could you help me with that
18:32:22 <ZirconiumX> the AIAbstractList problem
18:32:32 <ZirconiumX> townlist.Sort(AIAbstractList.SORT_BY_VALUE, false);
18:32:45 <Zuu_> Which API version do you use?
18:33:05 <Zuu_> IIRC AIAbstractList was removed in the 1.1 API.
18:33:34 <Zuu_> If you however have told OpenTTD to use 1.0 or 0.7 and you get this error, then it is a bug in OpenTTD.
18:33:40 *** TWerkhoven has joined #openttd
18:34:06 <ZirconiumX> bug with 1.0API and 0.7API
18:34:23 *** Intexon has joined #openttd
18:34:36 <Zuu_> Also notice that if you have told OpenTTD that you use 1.1 but use a library written for the 1.0 API, you can get errors like this as the library will run in the AI scope and not in a scope of its own.
18:35:21 <andythenorth> michi_cc: save posted
18:35:25 <ZirconiumX> but I think this is a bug
18:35:51 <ZirconiumX> thanks Yexo and Zuu
18:36:33 <Zuu_> In < 1.1 AIAbstractList existed, but in 1.1 and later it has been removed.
18:36:59 <Zuu_> The members of AIAbstractList has been moved to AIList.
18:37:10 <ZirconiumX> I have a feeling the 'simulator' has a bug
18:37:50 <andythenorth> michi_cc: industries recalculate destinations, according to link quality? (and how often)?
18:39:43 <michi_cc> The recalculate the weight for each destination per month (but not the actual destination), but only according to stockpile and production of the target. Your service has no influence at all on the destination chooser.
18:40:49 <michi_cc> Hmm, I wonder when the first one will post to the forum asking how to merge YACD and cargodist...
18:41:51 <andythenorth> how does production at target affect weighting?
18:42:07 *** Twerkhoven[L] has joined #openttd
18:44:14 <Ammler> planetmaker: you should use bananas grfs :-P
18:44:41 <michi_cc> more production -> higher weight
18:45:16 <planetmaker> Ammler: yes and no. I can't bananas every version of my grfs.
18:46:09 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Re your savegame: The forst is inside the catchment area of Snoozeweed Valley, so the cargo is directly going there. Docks have a catchment of 5 tiles (which means the whole station gets catchment 5).
18:46:23 <andythenorth> but game doesn't show me that
18:46:48 <andythenorth> it's the issue with station catchments being not what players expect?
18:47:19 <Zuu> michi_cc: Forgot to say on forum, but I very much like the work you've done with YACD.
18:47:58 <michi_cc> Probably, but that's a trunk problem as well. YACD does penalize stations further away from the source tile, it's just that the tram link is considered more expensive in this specific case.
18:49:03 <andythenorth> so dock makes my station catchment 5 tiles from each tile?
18:49:49 <andythenorth> might as well scrap that tram :P
18:50:11 *** ctibor|spi has joined #openttd
18:50:29 <michi_cc> If you make the link faster, for example by moving the tram stops at Valley to the two tiles nearer to woods or getting a faster tram, that might be enough to be better than the distance penalty.
18:50:55 <andythenorth> I don't have a faster tram ;)
18:51:03 <andythenorth> although that is in my power to fix
18:52:07 <michi_cc> But yes, the station catchment is the biggest catchment of all station parts (so a bus stop connected to an airport will get a large catchment.)
18:53:35 <andythenorth> the freight tactics do work
18:53:48 <andythenorth> YACD makes quite a realistic + fun logging network
18:54:01 <andythenorth> although I'm losing money due to weak trains :P
18:54:31 * planetmaker finally found use for big oil tankers: link between two regional oil terminals ;-)
18:54:42 <planetmaker> thanks to FISH 1k tons can be shipped at once
18:54:52 <andythenorth> apparently larger ones are needed :P
18:55:14 <planetmaker> it hasn't yet picked up a single drop of oil :-P
18:55:29 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you need those with 10m liters capacity :P
18:55:29 <planetmaker> it's currently just telling the oil rigs on the other part of the map: a connection exists
18:55:51 <DanMacK> Is there a binary of YACD available?
18:56:53 *** Dreamxtreme has joined #openttd
18:57:01 <andythenorth> DanMacK: windows?
18:57:22 <planetmaker> Belugas: maybe also that ;-)
18:57:26 <Zuu> planetmaker: Has the helicopter oilrig bug been fixed in the last bananas OpenGFX industries? Anyway, I'm not going to fiddle with the NewGRFs midgame ;-) So the oilrig people have to live with ferries.
18:57:42 <andythenorth> what's the bug? :o
18:57:44 <planetmaker> hm, what heli oil rig bug?
18:57:53 <planetmaker> ah, you mean no station anymore? yes
18:58:06 <Zuu> That you can't select an oilrig as destination for an helicopter
18:58:22 <andythenorth> but you can route ships?
18:58:23 <planetmaker> I didn't try that. But it has an air station
18:58:42 <andythenorth> unlikely to be a newgrf bug
18:58:47 * andythenorth would be highly surprised
18:59:13 <Zuu> I don't even have OpenGFX+ industries loaded...
18:59:19 <planetmaker> hm, I like the auto-cargo of CHIPS :-)
18:59:28 <planetmaker> Zuu: I do. Let's see
18:59:30 <Zuu> Only Landscape + Trains + Vehicles + Airports + Trees
19:00:20 <Zuu> Landscape 0.2.1, Trains 0.2.4, Vehicles r80, Airports r73, Trees 0.2.2 - and Aviators Aircraft v1.81
19:00:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: if you've found a way to *break* the water-station tile at rigs, please let me know
19:00:47 <andythenorth> it would be most useful
19:01:26 <Zuu> Uhm, forgive me. I must have clicked on the wrong tile.
19:01:28 <andythenorth> Zuu: what icons are in the station sign?
19:01:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker: CHIPS "the station set for lazy people"
19:02:12 <Zuu> I just recalled reading about a such bug and stoped to early when I couldn't click on the oilrig. :-)
19:02:48 <Terkhen> andythenorth: the bug was caused because I accidentaly rewrote the special oil rig tile; there was no ship station and no air station
19:03:12 <Terkhen> the bug is fixed in 0.2.0
19:03:26 <Terkhen> well, not accidentaly, I just was not aware of what would happen :)
19:03:29 <andythenorth> DanMacK: page 2 in the YACD thread
19:03:29 *** Chillosophy has joined #openttd
19:04:36 <planetmaker> V453000: Town and Industry - UK houses Beta 0.3
19:04:58 <planetmaker> do you find it with that?
19:07:06 <V453000> holy cow O_o I am just being kept surprised how awesomely detailed graphics pikka makes
19:07:31 * andythenorth needs to make MAYO next
19:08:18 * Zuu thinks more selfexplaining names would be useful to new players.
19:08:25 <andythenorth> screw new players :P
19:09:02 <andythenorth> Zuu: suggest some alternatives for my sets then :D, eg.
19:09:09 <andythenorth> FIRS Industry Replacement Set
19:09:14 <andythenorth> CHIPS Improves Players Stations
19:09:46 <__ln__> Terkhen: una preguntita: why do my dictionaries say "el Estado" is written with a capital E?
19:10:07 <Zuu> Written out they work for new players. FISH is also good as it has a connection to sea/ships also when written only as "FISH".
19:10:34 <Terkhen> __ln__: that's strange
19:10:51 <andythenorth> I mostly write them out ;)
19:10:53 <Terkhen> it's usually written "estado"
19:11:04 * andythenorth thinks improving bananas would do more for new players
19:11:09 <Terkhen> but capitalizing it in the middle of a sentence... I don't remember seeing that :P
19:11:17 <andythenorth> I would have helped with that...then this YACD thing got released :P
19:11:48 <Zuu> well, as long as you set tags as well as writing out the names, it soundn't be a big issue to find the sets.
19:12:28 <__ln__> Terkhen: thanks, i'll use the lowercase versión then.
19:13:48 <planetmaker> he, meanwhile the big oil shuttle is my ship with the biggest earnings :-)
19:14:16 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I could code you a bigger one...for even bigger earnings
19:14:30 <andythenorth> I have plans to add a 1404t version to later FISH
19:14:40 <andythenorth> players 'know' that bigger ships are better
19:15:53 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but it's not yet used up to capacity
19:16:05 <planetmaker> I just bought it in order of "fire and forget" that water link :-P
19:16:10 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you're clearly not using a realistic scenario
19:16:26 <planetmaker> I use OpenGFX+ Industries
19:16:33 <andythenorth> where are your 15k production oil wells, in clusters of 20?
19:16:50 * andythenorth waves vaguely in direction of Amazon Kindle
19:16:56 <planetmaker> but... 'realistic'... the oil wells produce each about 70 ... 200k liters per month
19:17:11 <andythenorth> they should be producing 15m to be realistic :P
19:17:20 <planetmaker> and there are 4 .. 6 in those fjords. which is enough
19:17:28 <andythenorth> no you need far more for realism :P
19:17:36 <andythenorth> and the ships should be realistic capacity
19:18:03 <andythenorth> real ships are like....50,000,000,000l
19:18:26 * andythenorth will now resume doing other things
19:18:47 <DanMacK> same with trains, each freight car should handle like 100 Tons
19:18:57 * andythenorth observes two things
19:19:19 <andythenorth> (1) lego eventually gave in and started making 8 wide vehicles that could seat two minifigs
19:19:26 <andythenorth> after years of complaints
19:19:33 <andythenorth> (2) then they stopped
19:19:44 <andythenorth> and went back to 4 wide *because it's a fricking toy* :P
19:20:30 <andythenorth> but this can go the other way too
19:20:58 <andythenorth> Amazon Kindle doesn't have a backlight. It uses a demonstrably better display technology, which is easier on the eye, and uses less battery, but needs illumination
19:21:14 <andythenorth> but go read the consumer reviews. No-one will buy a kindle because it doesn't have a backlight
19:21:26 <andythenorth> they know they need a backlight. And Amazon are just being cheap
19:21:39 <andythenorth> "why don't Amazon listen to me"
19:21:50 * andythenorth may have digressed
19:22:15 <andythenorth> "I don't want to put a 40w bulb on in my bedroom at night. It will wake my husband"
19:22:43 <andythenorth> So instead "I'll quite happily run by 65w backlight, which directs all the light straight into his face" :P
19:22:46 <planetmaker> the solution would be easy: a small LED light on a lever
19:22:47 <Mazur> Estado would be capitalised if it's (part of) a name.
19:22:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker: they exist ;)
19:23:02 <planetmaker> as USB version or so
19:23:11 <__ln__> Mazur: naturally in that case
19:23:20 <andythenorth> being right doesn't always lead to win
19:23:31 <andythenorth> just look at PHP, wordpress, drupal
19:23:43 * andythenorth wonders what the question was?
19:24:56 <andythenorth> anyway, I like this YACD thing
19:25:05 <andythenorth> that's no reflection on cargodist, which I never tried
19:25:17 <andythenorth> YACD transforms game for me similar to pBS
19:26:36 <andythenorth> well it's a fast truck :P
19:26:42 <planetmaker> AIs not always know what is good, it seems ;-) Yes, I suppose
19:26:47 <planetmaker> the fastest probably
19:27:05 <andythenorth> they're making money, who am I to criticise?
19:27:11 <andythenorth> maybe the machines know best
19:27:28 <andythenorth> I currently have no money :(
19:27:47 <andythenorth> and a beautiful pile of logs at a station, waiting for bigger trains
19:28:48 <planetmaker> hm, since I switched on cargodist for all cargos, most AIs go bancrupt. Only that blue AIAI copes somewhat
19:29:25 <andythenorth> presumably AIs could learn about this
19:29:40 <andythenorth> might be easier for an AI to calculate the graph
19:29:52 <michi_cc> Needs an extension to the NoAI API though.
19:32:01 <planetmaker> it would need that, yes
19:39:15 *** Twerkhoven[L] has joined #openttd
19:44:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> would definitely be nice to have a default timetabled wait :P <-- one of the timetable patches around here lets you do ctrl+click on wait time to set all wait times in the timetable simultaneously
19:51:16 <xQR> anyone else noticed that on windows openttd servers it is impossible to do a graceful quit for clients? it's always a socket error 10054 (connection reset by peer)
19:52:18 <xQR> which triggers bug 2 i found: in case of a quit due to a socket error the server won't inform admin interface clients that a player left :/
19:52:54 <xQR> so basically my admin interface client never knows when a client quits
19:53:54 <planetmaker> hm... we have this year's first thunderstorm here :-)
19:54:44 <planetmaker> (no, it's not a parabole to your remarks)
19:55:26 <Rubidium> xQR: does sound like FS#4585; does the solution described there help?
19:55:27 <planetmaker> xQR: I guess no-one noticed really... care to make a bug report about it?
19:55:41 <xQR> yeah just found that fs entry
19:56:03 <xQR> i wanted to create an entry but did a search first and was happy that i am not the only one who noticed it
19:57:09 <xQR> Rubidium haven't tried yet, but i am quite sure it will, as i noticed the same: that call to notify the admin interface is simply missing from that function, probably was forgotten
19:58:17 <xQR> mhh but i don't find an entry about the connection resets on windows servers, guess i will create one for that now
19:58:29 <xQR> have tried 20 times, disconnected from the server in all ways possible
20:00:03 <xQR> the openttd client seems to be a bit impatient in general - even on linux where you CAN have graceful disconnects it's quite rare
20:00:54 <xQR> which is what happens if you send a quit but close the socket immediately afterwards - whether the quit packet gets out before the socket close is just random
20:06:30 <Rubidium> the queue is always flushed to the network buffers before closing, unless the socket is already closed or the buffer is full
20:06:55 <xQR> yeah but i know from my own programs that not even flushing the queue is a guarantee that it will get sent before socket shutdown
20:07:17 <xQR> what helps is something simple like a stupid 100 ms sleep before doing the socket shutdown
20:07:36 <Rubidium> and let all clients lag for 3 ticks? ;)
20:08:07 <xQR> how would a client waiting 100 ms affect all other clients on the server?
20:08:24 <Rubidium> oh, letting the client wait
20:08:41 <xQR> sure, the client is the one that doesn't get the quit packet out before shutting down its socket
20:08:45 <Rubidium> as the networking code is pretty similar for both the server and client
20:08:46 <xQR> so the server never receives the quit packet anymore
20:10:09 <xQR> i couldn't explain why, i'd assume a flush will make sure it is really sent and when the shutdown is done afterwards the data before should always reach the server before the socket shutdown
20:10:14 <xQR> but i've made that experience on both windows and linux
20:10:52 <xQR> though it varies, probably depending on many variables like network drivers used, operating system settings, current whether in south africa...
20:11:13 <xQR> but a stupid sleep of some milliseconds makes a huge difference even if it's very hot in south africa :>
20:15:22 <Eddi|zuHause> so... i don't know why everybody thinks YACDest is so difficult... i'm making waaay more money than in my daylength 8 + cargodist game, and i have only connected two cities yet
20:15:41 *** supermop has joined #openttd
20:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> (i also had town cargo *2^-4 in that game)
20:18:04 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: not everybody ;-)
20:18:12 <planetmaker> But is more difficult than default
20:22:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the industry window could also show sources, not only destinations for cargo
20:24:20 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: like the cargo chain, but then with actual industries and amounts? :)
20:28:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: YACD is easy with PAX, if you pick the right starting cities
20:29:02 <andythenorth> and build the network very fast
20:29:16 <andythenorth> I was raining money in my second game
20:30:44 * andythenorth suggests a topic change :P
20:30:48 <andythenorth> or we teach brot
20:30:54 <andythenorth> is there brot here?
20:31:05 <supermop> no idea whats going on
20:32:39 <andythenorth> supermop: visit the forums - openttd dev section
20:34:08 * andythenorth browses screenshots
20:34:17 * andythenorth should play flat maps instead of hilly
20:41:23 *** Adambean has joined #openttd
20:42:40 * andythenorth wants a way to build 50% slopes :P
20:43:01 <andythenorth> i.e. take 2 tiles to rise 1 height level
20:44:58 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: It needs collapsible sections for each cargo and/or a scrollbar first, though.
20:45:32 * DanMacK wants to try YACD with his current settings
20:49:19 <planetmaker> but the slope is already configurable, andythenorth ;-)
20:49:29 <planetmaker> (but not in the way you mean ;-) )
20:49:45 <andythenorth> I already turned down the freight weight multiplier instead
20:50:08 <andythenorth> in the absence of more powerful trains....civil engineering seems the way to go
20:52:23 <michi_cc> planetmaker: the thunderstorm has arrived here :)
20:52:57 <planetmaker> I thought things walk to the East, but ... thunderstorms have their own rules, I guess
20:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> we had a thunderstorm a few weeks ago
20:55:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and it slightly misaligned the satellite dish
20:55:48 <Ammler> if that is the worst what happen, it wasn't a strong thunderstorm
20:59:48 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would shunting work?
21:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you assign 100 wagons to a group and send them "go to A, attach to an engine towards B", "go to B, attach to an engine towards C", etc. and the engine says "goto A, attach up to N length wagons towards B"
21:01:52 <andythenorth> so stations corral wagons until a suitable train turns up?
21:02:04 <andythenorth> stations would act a bit like depots?
21:02:28 <Eddi|zuHause> alternatively extend depots to multi-tile
21:02:33 <andythenorth> another idea was 'refit at stations'
21:02:39 <andythenorth> to any valid cargo
21:02:50 <andythenorth> possibly with weighting towards higher-paying
21:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can either have a loading/unloading station (current station) or a shunting station (current depot)
21:03:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would this work for other vehicle types?
21:03:43 <andythenorth> can shunting be extended to trucks, ships, planes?
21:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can tell the wagon "load onto a ship towards X"?
21:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the ship is not much different from an engine
21:04:11 <andythenorth> so ships are floating depots?
21:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> no, ships are floating engines
21:04:45 * andythenorth wonders what would actually happen if a depot moved around
21:05:48 * andythenorth was wondering how to have, e.g. general goods ships
21:06:02 <andythenorth> capable of carrying any cargo meeting certain class
21:08:30 *** Prof_Frink has joined #openttd
21:19:28 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
21:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> somehow the paper mill doesn't produce any manufacturing supplies, even when supplied with a trainload of wood
21:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> note: works better if you cover all tiles of the industry ;)
21:40:53 *** douknoukem has joined #openttd
21:43:41 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd
21:46:02 * DanMacK wishes there was a way to have a producing and accepting industry close by that doesn't require more than 1 station...
21:52:24 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd
21:57:16 <planetmaker> time for an update :-)
21:59:34 <planetmaker> but first time for sleep. Good night
22:02:09 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd
22:14:02 * DanMacK waits for the YACD 1.1 binary now
22:17:09 *** afk is now known as Dreamxtreme
23:21:30 *** supermop has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
