IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-14
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09:55:36 <LordAro> how do you replace text (e.g. {{VERSION}} ) with some other text, using a makefile?
09:55:50 <LordAro> i've looked through the firs repo, and i don't get it :)
10:02:52 <blathijs> LordAro: I think that's done using sed
10:03:12 <blathijs> or at least it's commonly done using sed, I don't know the FIRS build system
10:03:27 <planetmaker> it is done using sed
10:04:14 <LordAro> thanks, which makefile.* is it in?
10:04:21 <planetmaker> scripts/Makefile_nfo:29-30
10:05:24 <planetmaker> and scripts/Makefile.def:152-156 somewhat
10:06:19 <LordAro> oh, so thats where the s/somewrd/someword/ comes from :)
10:14:22 <LordAro> with sed, do you have to have an 'old file > new file'? can' you just keep the one file (i hope i'm making sense)
10:17:58 <Terkhen> IIRC you could hack a solution using pipes, but it's faster to just do && mv new_file old_file
10:19:24 <planetmaker> afaik there are solutions with grep which can do that. But they're not necessarily cross-platform compatible
10:19:45 <planetmaker> Thus should be avoided as that argument is not accepted by all versions of grep
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10:21:53 <LordAro> my ubuntu box doesn't seem to be recognising 'let'...
10:26:08 <planetmaker> LordAro: in a makefile you should not use that anyway
10:26:57 <LordAro> well you (or yexo) are the ones that gave it to me
10:27:26 <planetmaker> we gave you that for use in a bash script
10:27:35 <planetmaker> a makefile is not a bash script
10:28:42 <LordAro> REPO_REVISION := $(shell let tmp=$(shell $(HG) id -n | cut -d+ -f1)+96; echo $$tmp) <- it sort of is...
10:29:34 <planetmaker> indeed, that might work that way...
10:29:38 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro, Terkhen: yes, sed has the "-i" parameter to modify the original file instead ("inplace")
10:29:52 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but not all versions of sed support that
10:30:26 <planetmaker> at least I *think* I remember a problem with that
10:30:43 <planetmaker> but well, worth a try ;-)
10:31:00 <planetmaker> if it fails a more complicated version can still be used ;-)
10:31:01 <LordAro> planetmaker: but it doesn't that way, with my 'bash'/'sh' but it does with the openttdcoop version
10:31:24 <LordAro> s/doesn't/doesn't work/
10:36:14 <LordAro> my version of bash is 4.1.5, what is openttdcoop's?
10:38:46 <planetmaker> sed, grep, make are not part of bash
10:39:11 <planetmaker> my bash version is 3.2
10:39:23 <planetmaker> server... dunno currently, but probably 4.x
10:41:24 <LordAro> ok, what about 'let'?
10:42:58 <Terkhen> let should work in your bash version
10:43:17 <Terkhen> as it works in 3.2 and in 4.2.8
10:43:28 <planetmaker> yes. But... nesting two shell commands might be wrong
10:44:17 <Terkhen> LordAro: can you build unmodified FIRS?
10:44:28 <LordAro> the error message i get is: /bin/sh: let: not found
10:44:34 <planetmaker> REPO_REVISION := $(shell let tmp=`$(HG) id -n | cut -d+ -f1`+96; echo $$tmp) might be better
10:45:26 <Terkhen> but why should it fail with that particular version of bash?
10:45:44 <Terkhen> if it works with older and newer versions...
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10:45:47 <planetmaker> Terkhen: does that line work with yours? I haven't tested actually. Or not that I remember
10:45:58 <LordAro> dunno, i'll see if i can upgrade
10:46:22 <LordAro> planetmaker: your line results in the same error
10:46:36 <planetmaker> LordAro: upgrading your bash won't solve a thing. Certainly
10:49:47 <Terkhen> hmm... where is that line?
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10:55:32 <planetmaker> REPO_REVISION := $(shell let x=`hg id -n | cut -d+ -f1`+96; echo $$x) <-- works for me
10:57:40 <planetmaker> or better HG as variable: REPO_REVISION := $(shell let x=`$(HG) id -n | cut -d+ -f1`+96; echo $$x)
11:06:47 <Terkhen> hmm... I was looking for the line that LordAro pasted, but of course that is not present :)
11:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: never trust the navy of a landlocked country :p
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11:10:12 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you know the country with best ocean sailors?
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11:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: you mean the part where it says "the team consisted mostly of New Zealand nationals"?
11:16:15 <Ammler> just "Nation: Switzerland"
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17:02:56 * andythenorth has used today's allocation of caps
17:03:04 <andythenorth> large caps that is
17:03:10 <andythenorth> small caps is still freely available
17:03:25 <planetmaker> hELLo andythenorth
17:03:30 <pyrotechnick> im looking for anyone keen to help with a html version of openttd
17:03:42 <planetmaker> lool. html version?
17:03:51 <pyrotechnick> like in canvas2d or in webgl
17:03:52 <Sacro> pyrotechnick: start with <hml>
17:03:56 <Sacro> everything goes from there
17:04:04 <pyrotechnick> i know how to write it you scrub
17:04:12 <pyrotechnick> just want the help
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17:04:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
17:05:10 <pyrotechnick> anyway if anyone's serious please drop me a bell
17:05:19 * andythenorth suggests screenshot -> html app
17:05:25 <andythenorth> and run ottd as a server
17:05:29 <pyrotechnick> im "pyrotechnick" on facebook, twitter, gmail etc
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17:06:09 <planetmaker> pyrotechnick: I guess it needs quite a bit more to get people interested in something than "I want to do <whatever> and need help"
17:07:05 <pyrotechnick> i guess i'm not really appealing to people who need to be forced to help lol
17:07:52 <confound> if that's how you want to spin it to yourself, sure
17:07:52 <Sacro> if they're going to be forced then why bother appealing?
17:08:06 <pyrotechnick> anyway i have a couple of comrades here, we're in the business of node.js, coffeescript, redis that kind of thing. we know our shit, if you wanna help out instead of discouraging and trolling get in touch
17:08:07 <confound> what planetmaker's saying is that your idea as given is too unformed to grab people
17:08:17 <KenjiE20> make a sf.net project.. I mean those just write themselves right?
17:08:22 <pyrotechnick> its not that fucking hard dude, a clone in html
17:08:34 <Sacro> what's the point of this venture?
17:08:38 <confound> you are selling yourself as a great person to work with. good luck with that
17:09:05 <planetmaker> then please start and produce some initial results. You won't find someone implementing YOUR ideas with this attitude indeed
17:09:21 <pyrotechnick> dude its not even an idea, its a fucking clone
17:09:32 <Sacro> well get to fucking work on it
17:09:52 * andythenorth is going to bath the fucking baby :)
17:09:53 <__ln__> 20:03 < pyrotechnick> im looking for anyone keen to help with a html version of openttd <-- ffs, i was drinking soda when i read that
17:10:13 <pyrotechnick> you guys know what html is capable of these days right?
17:10:16 <KenjiE20> don't forget to put your keyboard in the sun __ln__
17:10:18 <pyrotechnick> between canvas2d and webgl
17:10:43 <pyrotechnick> it's as capable as any platform at doing openttd at least
17:10:55 <pyrotechnick> it may not be as performant but it's certainly going to be playable
17:11:00 <KenjiE20> isn't webgl not html, it's just a thing a browser can do
17:11:21 <confound> my skepticism is about "it's just a clone", not about the technology involved
17:11:26 <KenjiE20> well you're not doing it in HTML then are you?
17:11:28 <pyrotechnick> it uses the canvas tag
17:11:35 <pyrotechnick> im not sure what else to call it but html
17:11:41 <confound> so java and flash are also html now
17:11:52 <pyrotechnick> theyre plugins you tool
17:12:14 <pyrotechnick> dude seriously just stfu if you dont have anything constructive to say
17:12:30 <planetmaker> pyrotechnick: please watch your tongue, ok?
17:12:33 <Alberth> KenjiE20: no, it is html
17:12:37 <__ln__> pyrotechnick: have you already implemented a "Hello World" program using the technique you are talking about?
17:13:03 <planetmaker> and __ln__ 's advice is a good thing
17:13:10 * andythenorth was looking for a nice drama
17:13:11 <Alberth> since both allow nesting of language constructs
17:13:12 <pyrotechnick> what technique __ln__? canvas2d?
17:13:17 <andythenorth> it was a boring day so far
17:13:54 <__ln__> pyrotechnick: i think you should know best what technique you are talking about yourself.
17:14:05 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I hope you have a cold beer and some popcorn at hand?
17:14:25 * KenjiE20 has warm beer and cold popcorn, that do?
17:14:34 <pyrotechnick> __ln__: i've made a fair bit in webgl/canvas over the last 18 months
17:14:40 <pyrotechnick> have a couple of things on youtube if you're keen
17:14:42 <andythenorth> I have a cold baby and a warm bath
17:14:43 <planetmaker> you British are strange. Everything which suits you ;-)
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17:14:58 <andythenorth> btw canvas and webgl can do some impressive stuff
17:15:17 <andythenorth> it's probably possible to do this
17:15:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: as long as you don't drink the baby, you'll be fine
17:15:20 <pyrotechnick> this is an engine we're contributing to
17:15:24 <andythenorth> but this might not be the way to go about it...
17:15:36 <pyrotechnick> it can certainly pull off something like openttd
17:15:46 <pyrotechnick> i think i'd use a 3d API though even if it's only sprite based
17:15:57 <pyrotechnick> better on the processor
17:16:30 <pyrotechnick> which we've found to almost universally be the the bottleneck
17:16:43 <pyrotechnick> unless you're doing something stupid or insane in your shaders
17:16:47 <andythenorth> pyrotechnick: the issue isn't the technology, it's the size of the project
17:17:02 <andythenorth> ottd is large and complex
17:17:06 <pyrotechnick> yeah im not saying this client would be compatible with openttd
17:17:14 <pyrotechnick> when i say clone i merely mean a game heavily inspired
17:17:21 <__ln__> what would be the actual advantage of running openttd in a browser, compared to the current way?
17:17:39 <pyrotechnick> well for starters you get platform agnosticism for free
17:17:43 <pyrotechnick> no need to install/update
17:17:44 <planetmaker> OpenTTD's code size certainly is the equivalent of several man-years
17:18:02 <pyrotechnick> there's also emscripten
17:18:09 <pyrotechnick> which is an llvm backend for javascript
17:18:18 <pyrotechnick> so you can automatically translate c/c++ into js
17:18:30 <pyrotechnick> which should help with some of the AI and more time-tested, backend stuff
17:18:34 <Sacro> What platforms can run a browser with webgl but not openttd?
17:18:41 <planetmaker> AIs are squirrel. Mind that
17:18:48 <Alberth> people have tried to use 3d stuff on the current engine locally at the desktop, and got nowhere
17:18:58 <pyrotechnick> im not saying it would be in 3d
17:19:01 <pyrotechnick> im saying id use a 3d api
17:19:11 <Alberth> current openttd is also not 3d
17:19:16 <Terkhen> that's what people tried with OpenTTD too :)
17:19:22 <pyrotechnick> im not saying make it 3d
17:19:29 <pyrotechnick> im saying use a 3d api to draw the 2d
17:19:35 <pyrotechnick> much better on cpu, especially in browsers
17:19:43 <Alberth> so what do you think the other people tried?
17:19:47 <KenjiE20> also I remember seeing OTTD on a DS
17:20:03 <pyrotechnick> Sacro: im not saying that's an absolute advantage, just that it would help out in reducing the number of man-years it would take
17:20:09 <pyrotechnick> yeah i have played it on iOS
17:20:14 <pyrotechnick> it's way too finicky
17:20:17 <pyrotechnick> that's why a clone wouldnt work
17:20:25 <pyrotechnick> it would have to be slightly redesigned
17:20:37 <planetmaker> pyrotechnick: in that case I suggest to start with out-sourcing the graphics work from the CPU to the GPU in the normal OpenTTD code
17:21:24 <pyrotechnick> planetmaker: why?
17:21:32 <pyrotechnick> i'm not a native coder
17:21:38 <pyrotechnick> i wouldn't get too far
17:21:41 <planetmaker> I wasn't born a coder either
17:21:54 <Alberth> if it works anywhere, it is in the native environment. Also, it eases porting later
17:22:02 <pyrotechnick> i mean i dont mind getting my hands dirty with that kind of thing, i've written a few bindings for node but i dont really enjoy it
17:22:38 <pyrotechnick> im sure openttd is faster with a 2d api than 3d
17:22:47 <pyrotechnick> but that's not something i've found holds true in html
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17:22:55 <planetmaker> how dirty do think you'd get when porting this stuff to whatever web code you envision?
17:23:33 <pyrotechnick> im not sure how to answer? as much as i could?
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17:23:34 <planetmaker> And for the very reason Alberth gives, it might give a taste of what you're up to
17:24:05 <pyrotechnick> yeah it just seems like i wouldnt get too much out of doing it, and havent others done it already? isnt that what this thread is about?
17:24:08 <planetmaker> and if you then still think it's interesting you a) won something for your project - and if not, the project as a whole might have won something nevertheless
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17:25:51 <planetmaker> Thus: no one really tried finish such implementation earnestly
17:26:13 <pyrotechnick> i understand, as i said, i understand it's not faster in 3d when it comes to doing things natively
17:26:29 <pyrotechnick> what i'm saying is that in our experience doing sprites in webgl runs circles around canvas2d
17:26:40 <pyrotechnick> in terms of performance and efficiency
17:26:46 <planetmaker> I'm not talking about speed. I'm talking about making it work properly. Irrespective of speed.
17:26:54 <planetmaker> Only when it works properly, then speed can be compared
17:26:56 <pyrotechnick> define properly?
17:27:10 <planetmaker> Display stuff in the way other blitters do
17:27:32 <planetmaker> without bugs and alike.
17:27:33 <pyrotechnick> well this doesnt even exist yet of course it doesnt work properly
17:27:50 <pyrotechnick> im not sure i see your point
17:28:00 <planetmaker> that's my point. Try that for a start. You'll need the very same thing for your project
17:28:14 <pyrotechnick> anyway this place sucks everyones on a downer and gets off on discouragement, enjoy eachothers "company"
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17:28:41 <KenjiE20> oh no, the real world, quick hide
17:29:54 <planetmaker> Somehow I knew it'd end this way :-)
17:30:09 <Terkhen> someone does not know how to handle criticism :)
17:30:14 * DanMacK wonders what he missed
17:30:28 <planetmaker> DanMacK: "WebOpenTTD"
17:30:55 <planetmaker> and the guy who calls the channel thickheads pointing out the related problems instead of jumping up and down "great idea"
17:31:23 <confound> I don't have a problem with "webopenttd" per se, but his attitude was terrible
17:32:16 <planetmaker> indeed I think starting with an OpenGL blitter or similar might give him an idea on the scope of his "idea"
17:32:17 <flitz> do you have such ones around often ?
17:32:19 <planetmaker> it's not new either
17:32:31 <planetmaker> from time to time
17:32:58 <confound> any time someone's like "it's just a clone of <whatever>, it'll be easy" it is difficult to think they have any idea what they're talking about
17:33:12 <confound> unless "whatever" is minesweeper or tictactoe or some other such trivial program
17:33:31 <peter1138> his idea is fine, and probably achieveable, but... sucky attitude
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17:34:38 * DanMacK would rather see custom airports in OTTD :P
17:34:58 <planetmaker> DanMacK: I could use rotated airport sprites for a starter.
17:35:12 <planetmaker> That's feasible. But no single person ever drew the other 3 rotation states
17:35:20 <DanMacK> Open or Original GFX?
17:35:24 <Alberth> 45 degrees counter-clockwise?
17:35:30 <planetmaker> Coding of them granted. OpenGFX style preferred
17:35:38 <planetmaker> Alberth: 90° rotations work
17:36:06 <planetmaker> But... if all 4 rotations are supplied... nearly any style would do
17:36:06 * DanMacK looks at graphics now
17:36:29 <planetmaker> not all sprites need re-drawing, of course. But buildings
17:37:55 <planetmaker> one of the features longest left un-used by newgrfs which I know :-)
17:39:09 <DanMacK> well, the large hanger has 4 views, that's a start :P
17:39:29 <planetmaker> two exist already
17:39:39 <frosch123> [19:35] <planetmaker> That's feasible. But no single person ever drew the other 3 rotation states <- didn't actually skidd drew all of them?
17:39:41 <planetmaker> at least for the large(r) airports
17:39:55 <planetmaker> frosch123: not that I know.
17:40:14 <planetmaker> IIRC Yexo has all of his sprites and it doesn't suffice for implementing the rotations
17:40:58 <frosch123> what's missing in the sprites of act5 type 0x10? except the small airport stuff?
17:41:38 <frosch123> there are hangars for all directions, and the runway for the other direction
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17:41:43 <frosch123> what else needs rotating?
17:41:48 <planetmaker> airport buildings
17:42:05 <frosch123> at least the default airport buildings are symmetric
17:42:17 <planetmaker> that doesn't help for 3x1 buildings
17:44:02 <DorpsGek> Sacro: I have not seen ludde.
17:44:16 <planetmaker> though that's very easy to achieve :-)
17:44:44 <frosch123> planetmaker: for default graphics the runway already exists in the other direction
17:44:50 <frosch123> it's even included in openttd.grf
17:45:05 <planetmaker> I wonder for what reason
17:45:22 <frosch123> and sprites 2650 and 2654 are replace each other for default graphics
17:45:40 <frosch123> planetmaker: richk's airport messing?
17:47:19 <frosch123> Alberth: i mean the 3 of the 6 airports which made it into trunk
17:47:47 <frosch123> heliports, intercontinental, consumer and such things
17:47:52 <DanMacK> so it looks like the small airport buildings are all that needs to be done
17:48:12 <frosch123> DanMacK: i guess also the "tunnels"
17:49:00 <Alberth> frosch123: I didn't know that. Nice
17:50:45 <frosch123> hmm, maybe richk drew them even himself
17:51:11 <frosch123> anyway, those airports are from long before the branch
17:51:26 <andythenorth> next time someone comes in with 'stfu' etc...
17:51:32 * andythenorth might move straight to 'fuck off'
17:51:39 <frosch123> resp. the branch was started because the evil devs did not want to include all those weirdly shaped airports :p
17:51:50 * frosch123 was not involved :)
17:53:42 <andythenorth> he's gone now :)
17:54:10 <andythenorth> which furniture factory should I ship? I've gone snow blind...
17:56:28 <frosch123> the first one looks better, the second one might fit better :p
17:56:55 <andythenorth> that's my opinion
17:56:58 <Zuu> Doesn't flyspray use the same user account database as the website? At lesat that is what I remember, but I could be wrong.
18:02:44 <frosch123> Zuu: translator, bananas, wiki and bugs are the same ldap
18:04:06 <Zuu> It states that you need to create another account for bugs.
18:05:30 <Zuu> Also question #2 could possible be updated to reflect that an account from one of bananas, wiki or bugs can be used. (if anyone feels like doing it of course)
18:06:06 * andythenorth proposes a topic change
18:06:29 <andythenorth> "swearing will result in kick (exceptions will be made for witty swearing)
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18:38:04 <andythenorth> it's off to work they go
18:41:27 * andythenorth just misread 'dredging site' as 'dragon site'
18:41:32 <andythenorth> which could be an interesting industry
18:41:39 <andythenorth> toyland -> tolkein crap
18:42:07 * andythenorth is not a tolkein fan
18:42:13 <andythenorth> but liked warcraft 1 a lot
18:42:42 <DanMacK> not necessarily "tolkien", but generic fantasy
18:42:50 * Hendikins grumbles about aircraft being too easy.
18:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Hendikins: try aircraft combined with cargodist :p
18:43:36 <DanMacK> Are you playing with default aircraft or Av8?
18:44:02 <Hendikins> Eddi|zuHause: I'm playing on some random server.
18:45:01 <Hendikins> And it is the usual story. Drop a few airports, put on a few planes, mega cashflow.
18:46:45 <andythenorth> not so much 'is it like default industry' as 'does it fit in' ??
18:48:15 <andythenorth> without fences / custom ground tiles I think that's as far as I can go
18:48:21 <andythenorth> I can knock the water tanks off the roof
18:48:24 <andythenorth> they stand out a bit
18:48:36 <andythenorth> good / bad idea?
18:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see anything wrong with them...
18:49:35 <andythenorth> I could use pure black for the arch shadow. that's what SF does.
18:49:38 <andythenorth> but I don't like it :P
18:51:35 <andythenorth> yup, looks rubbish with pure black
18:54:04 <Belugas> shit, i missed that pyrotechnic guy
18:54:13 <Belugas> that would have been fun to intervene
18:55:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is that one good enough to be a benchmark? (± ground tiles & fences)
18:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> don't know what that even means...
19:00:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you can use it as a style guide quite fine
19:00:33 <andythenorth> that's what I meant :)
19:00:44 <andythenorth> I need one that's agreed to be good enough
19:00:54 <andythenorth> otherwise I'm going to go insane with tweaks back and forth
19:02:06 <andythenorth> and as SF is not consistent in his graphics, simply copying will never produce a 100% correct answer :)
19:03:10 <Hendikins> In better news, a 27" 2560x1440 display is great fun for ottd.
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19:59:03 <andythenorth> animated bridge?
19:59:09 <andythenorth> follows the locomotive?
19:59:17 <andythenorth> or a moving depot?
19:59:23 <frosch123> did someone suggest a falkirk wheel, but for trains?
19:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, andythenorth: one of the firs requests: coal mine accepts wood/wdpr/bdmt?
20:00:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 down, 2 to go :p
20:04:11 <Alberth> frosch123: I saw a design for one as container transport at a harbour not so long ago, does that count too?
20:07:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: well, MB said he removed the BR05 completely
20:07:02 <Alberth> you would not be able to see the engine anymore, as it would blend into the background
20:07:56 <Alberth> besides who needs camouflage in OpenTTD, nobody is going to shoot at it :)
20:08:16 <frosch123> the br05 is the fast read one in 0.8?
20:10:30 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: his reason is that he can use the BR61/Henschel-Wegman-Zug to limit the consists that the engine can be used, to prevent it from being overpowered
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20:33:45 <Alberth> like camouflage would work with aliens :)
20:35:38 * andythenorth now has to redraw rest of FIRS :o
20:38:58 <andythenorth> actually some of it was right first time
20:39:01 <andythenorth> like the Brewery
20:39:11 <andythenorth> don't know why / how I screwed up some of the others
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21:15:08 <jimidennis24> How do I get vehicles for openttd stable version? Just downloaded today and I have no available vehicles or depots
21:15:13 <SmatZ> hello jimidennis24, what year do you start at?
21:15:21 <SmatZ> first vehicles are available in ~1930
21:15:28 <jimidennis24> ive tried 1950 and 2050
21:15:53 <SmatZ> jimidennis24: can you build road?
21:18:16 <jimidennis24> i got it...thank you!!
21:18:28 <jimidennis24> i was doing it wayy wrong
21:54:45 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 30592.9874971
21:55:03 <SmatZ> @calc sqrt(935930884+2**32)
21:55:03 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 72324.9485309
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continue to next day ⏵
