IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-15
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06:20:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22322 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Fix [FS#4593]: Obey the law of conservation of parantheses in the console help
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07:00:31 <LordAro> 12:06:47 <@Terkhen> hmm... I was looking for the line that LordAro pasted, but of course that is not present :) <- which line was it you wanted?
07:02:10 <LordAro> 11:46:36 <@planetmaker> LordAro: upgrading your bash won't solve a thing. Certainly <- definitely: "...since /bin/sh on Ubuntu is dash, not bash"
07:02:17 <LordAro> whatever dash is... :)
07:04:39 <Terkhen> I don't remember that
07:04:51 <Terkhen> something about REPO_VERSION
07:05:32 <planetmaker> LordAro: that exactly might be the issue. dash syntax might be (slightly) different from bash syntax
07:06:14 <LordAro> Terkhen: this? REPO_REVISION := $(shell let tmp=$(shell $(HG) id -n | cut -d+ -f1)+96; echo $$tmp)
07:07:02 <planetmaker> REPO_REVISION := $(shell let x=`$(HG) id -n | cut -d+ -f1`+96; echo $$x) <-- this syntax works here
07:07:22 <LordAro> planetmaker: yes, in fact the ubuntu forums thread i'm looking at tells me to use #! /bin/bash instead - will that be ok at openttdcoop?
07:07:22 <planetmaker> mind that you use two times $(shell which might be an issue
07:07:54 <planetmaker> it will. But I wonder whether it works on mingw
07:08:10 <LordAro> if i've got bash installed :)
07:08:24 <planetmaker> afaik mingw just calls it sh, though
07:08:29 <LordAro> but i don't care about that, as long as it works on opentdcoop, thats fine for me
07:10:15 <peter1138> Oh dear. Just applied MJP's zoom64 patch.
07:11:05 <LordAro> planetmaker: do you know if ottdcoop supports the -i parameter of sed?
07:11:45 <planetmaker> not by heart. I recon yes, though
07:12:07 <planetmaker> but why, if you can just re-use the existing makefile code?
07:12:43 <planetmaker> but it seems to be not a gnu-specific extension, so it should be fine
07:16:08 <LordAro> i don't understand the existing makefile code :P
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07:39:47 <LordAro> how long does firs normally take to compile? i copied the relavent bits into my makefile, and its been about five mins now :L
07:43:15 <LordAro> i'm on ubuntu right now :P
07:43:36 <LordAro> do you think its got itself into an infinite loop?
07:53:52 <Alberth> 7 seconds at my system
07:57:35 <Terkhen> LordAro: modified firs?
07:58:13 <LordAro> don't worry, i think it was some sort of infinite loop
07:58:22 <LordAro> commit coming up shortly :)
08:03:19 <LordAro> (mind-freeze) what do you call the file-endings? (e.g. *.txt or whatever)
08:04:36 <LordAro> lol, file extensions :)
08:05:34 <Alberth> technically, filename extensions :)
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09:16:10 <LordAro> ok, this line "$(_V) $(shell $(HG) archive -X glob:.* -X path:Makefile $(BUNDLE_NAME))" is stopping .txt files (generated on make) being included how can i fix this?
09:21:13 <Alberth> do you know what BUNDLE_NAME is ?
09:21:31 <Alberth> run the command manually, and see what it says
09:22:24 <Alberth> ie hg archive -X glob:.* -X path:Makefile $BUNDLE_NAME <-- but you may want to replace $... by the contents of BUNDLE_NAME
09:24:31 <LordAro> BUNDLE_NAME := $(FILENAME)-$(VERSION_STRING)
09:25:03 <LordAro> anyone else there? :)
09:25:19 <planetmaker> make _V= also helps
09:26:08 <planetmaker> dihedral, setting it to "" will make show every line. Default _V=@
09:26:17 <planetmaker> which will hide all output unless echo is used
09:26:35 <planetmaker> for debugging _V= is quite recommended
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09:26:44 <LordAro> i have an idea... hang on
09:33:18 <LordAro> my fix worked :) (see #openttdcoop.devzone )
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11:14:22 <blathijs> __ln__: Is that a preemptive answer for stupid questions? ;-p
11:15:19 <__ln__> blathijs: it serves that purpose too
11:22:17 <planetmaker> blathijs, did you look at it? ;-)
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11:37:16 <blathijs> planetmaker: Heh, I didn't before :-)
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11:40:36 <blathijs> planetmaker: Ah, nice :-)
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12:18:32 <Ammler> blathijs: is debian packaging able to make package for different debian versions with same dsc?
12:20:11 <blathijs> Ammler: There can't be any differences, then
12:20:27 <blathijs> Ammler: But you can compile the same DSC on multiple debian versions?
12:20:58 <Ammler> e.q. python3-dev is anly availalbe on 6.0
12:21:21 <Ammler> how do you make the rule so the same dsc works also for 5.0?
12:21:41 <blathijs> Ammler: It mostly depends on the dependencies
12:22:10 <blathijs> Ammler: If a package's (build)-dependencies are available, you can build the dsc
12:22:35 <blathijs> Ammler: The resulting dependencies of the binary package might be different then, because the versions in dependencies are often autodetected
12:23:26 <Ammler> well, in this case, it is a subpackage needed for debian 6 only
12:23:40 <Ammler> if no python3 is available don't make that subpackage
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12:47:01 <Regiovogel> a quick question regarding delivering of cargos...
12:47:42 <Regiovogel> if i have a station between two industries and the cargo is accepted by both, which industry gets it? the nearest one?
12:48:25 <Yexo> I think the one nearest to the station sign
12:50:00 <Regiovogel> and there is no chance to distribute it to all industries in the catchment area?
12:50:28 <Regiovogel> would be quite nice in this situation i'm having here :)
12:50:51 <planetmaker> there is. Overload the first industry
12:51:35 <Eddi|zuHause> use "transfer" at the main station, and then two small branch railways/industrial trams
12:52:10 <Regiovogel> overloading might not work because i'm playing with FIRS and delivering only small amounts at a time ;)
12:52:29 <Regiovogel> well, it's already an industrial tram, so...
12:52:36 <planetmaker> also... catchment area acceptance != catchment area delievery to station
12:52:42 <planetmaker> so which catchment area? ;-)
12:52:45 <confound> a truck, then. whatever
12:53:06 <planetmaker> or use orders like pickup A, deliver B, pickup A, deliver C
12:53:11 <Regiovogel> i wasn't aware there are different catchment areas ;)
12:53:18 <planetmaker> split your delivery station to two
12:53:28 <Regiovogel> what would be the difference between them?
12:54:03 <planetmaker> acceptance: around station tiles according to station type
12:54:24 <planetmaker> delivery to station: rectangle around two most distant station tiles
12:54:49 <Regiovogel> i think i'll give up the tram route and replace it with a train route and then distribute it with short tram routes... should work well
13:00:18 <blathijs> Ammler: This subpackage, is it not required on 6.0, or is it impossible to build, because of the lack of python3?
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13:13:19 <Ammler> blathijs: opposite, there is no python3-dev for 5.0, with rpm you just make %if %{debian_version} >=6... something like that not possible with deb, right?
13:15:09 <Ammler> there is currently no such thing in openttd
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13:19:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: can you say "it's recommended" instead of "it's required", so it will be skipped if it's not available?
13:22:00 <Ammler> well, it is not really necesssary we just had a discussion about rpm/dep specs and were wondering about that
13:22:20 <Ammler> the guy does now make 2 packages, von for 5 and one for 6
13:23:51 <Ammler> it is just not the usual way on the obs, there you make one spec for every supported version
13:32:17 <blathijs> Ammler: Usually on Debian, everything is uploaded to unstable and then migratest trhough testing to stable, so this issue isn't really relevant in normal Debian packages
13:32:59 <blathijs> Ammler: if a package is every compiled specifically for testing or stable, it's because there are backported changes (security fixes), so the source package is different anyway
13:33:40 <Ammler> blathijs: of course it will be build seperately, but rpm can do that with same spec
13:33:56 <Ammler> debian needs in such cases a modified dsc
13:34:29 <blathijs> Ammler: Yes, but I'm saying that normally, the actual source is different anyway, so there's no problem
13:34:57 <blathijs> Ammler: But I'm still trying to find out your actual problem: Is the package irrelevant without python3-dev, or just imposible without it, or?
13:35:11 <Ammler> well, it is a problem if you like to maintain the build script from upstream
13:35:17 <Ammler> you need to supply both versions
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13:36:14 <Ammler> the subpackage is irrelevant and not needed without python3
13:36:38 <blathijs> What is it? Python3 bindings or something?
13:36:54 <blathijs> Is there a python2 version of the same package?
13:43:32 <blathijs> Ammler: I'm poking #debian-devel about this :-)
13:44:38 <Ammler> blathijs: this dcs now works with debain 6 only, how would you modify it to use for both at same time?
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13:46:05 <blathijs> Ammler: I'm not sure. I think it needs to have an optional build dependency to make it work
13:46:32 <Ammler> hehe, someone just meant, the dsc is autogenerated ususally
13:47:07 <blathijs> "meant" looks wrong in that sentence :-)
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13:50:26 <blathijs> Ammler: So the problem went away?
13:51:15 <Ammler> you don't need a dsc file for openttd?
13:51:22 <Belugas> mister planetmaker :) hello my friend
13:52:10 * planetmaker looks forward to the weekend. Will be soon-ish :-)
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14:11:48 <flitz> template replacement becomes more and more of a project the more I work on it
14:12:00 <flitz> and that without adding new features so far
14:19:09 <dihedral> "[project] becomes more and more of a project the more I work on it" <- is that not a given?
14:20:37 <flitz> hm yes, but for me its usually because of other reasons :)
14:26:00 <flitz> technical question: I have a struct TemplateVehicle that has only data members and functions which are also present in either Vehicle or Train, that should enable me to use commands like CmdMoveRailVehicle on it, right ?
14:26:26 <flitz> I mean, by doing a pointer cast from *TemplateVehicle to *Train or *vehicle first
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14:40:14 <Yexo> flitz: such a cast is only possible if TemplateVehicle is a subclass of Train (or Vehicle in the second case)
14:41:31 <flitz> that would contradict the purpose of my struct because I wanted to abstract from a lot of things that Vehicle (or Train respectively) is using but still use some of those related functions
14:41:57 <flitz> so, this means a re-write of those functions for my own struct ?
14:42:26 <Yexo> flitz: you could make those functions template functions
14:43:26 <Yexo> why is it a problem to make TemplateVehicle a subclass of Vehicle (or the other way around)?
14:45:28 <flitz> With the templatevehicle I just wanted to keep it slim because I don't need a lot of things that Vehicle has, right now TemplateVehicle only derives from BaseVehicle, but I could maybe put it inbetween the inheritance of BaseVehicle and GroundVehicle
14:46:10 <flitz> or just use normal Vehicles instead of a dedicated structure, which would add some bloat, though I don't know if that would ever hurt
14:46:22 <Yexo> if GroundVehicle inherits from TemplateVehicle, you could modify those functions to accept TemplateVehicle* instead of Vehicle* and it should just work
14:47:03 <Yexo> what is the point of TemplateVehicle?
14:48:47 <flitz> the number of templates in any savegame should be about the same magnitude as the number of groups I would guess
14:49:08 <flitz> so, maybe just using Train instead of TemplateVehicle would be ok, but idk
14:49:49 <Yexo> is TemplateVehicle only one part of the template (like Vehicle) or is it the complete template (so all parts in one struct)?
14:50:39 <flitz> one part, I chain them up like the game does with vehicles already
14:51:01 <flitz> and use the pointer to the first engine as pointer to the whole template
14:51:19 <Yexo> ok, so just like vehicles
14:51:38 <Yexo> I guess I'd template CmdMoveRailVehicle
14:51:56 <Yexo> you'll need two different commands (as in, command ids), so a little wrapper around that template is necessary
14:52:59 <flitz> so I will call CmdMoveAnyVehicle which will check the type input value and will then call CmdMoveRailVehicle or CmdMoveTemplateVehicle ?
14:53:39 <Yexo> no, you call either CmdMoveRailVehicle or CmdMoveTemplateVehicle which are both wrappers around the real function CmdMoveAnyVehicle<T>
14:54:29 <Yexo> unless you are storing the template vehicles in the vehicle pool, in which case you could detect the type at runtime
14:54:55 <Yexo> I just realized you're probably doing that, since you're making a subclass of BaseVehicle
14:55:01 <flitz> right now I have my own pool for templatevehicles
14:55:22 <flitz> but that doesn't necessarily need to stay that way ;)
14:55:35 <Yexo> in that case you definitely need a second command, since there is no way to determine at runtime whether a given id points to a TemplateVehicle or a Train
14:56:06 <flitz> what is the usual limit on trains in a game ? 500 ?
14:56:18 <Yexo> 500 is the default, you can change the setting up to 5000
14:56:26 <Yexo> but that is total number of trains, not vehicle parts
14:56:52 <Yexo> 1000-1500 trains is about the limit in most multiplayer games, more and most CPUs won't be able to handle it
14:57:00 <flitz> hm, so having specified like 50 templates (as in full chains) which are trains themselves only with INVALID_TILE and DEFAULT_GROUP would make some kind of difference
14:57:40 <Yexo> I doubt it'll make much of a performance impact
14:57:44 <planetmaker> well... the performance "loss" for vehicles occurs due to path finding
14:57:50 <planetmaker> memory is not an issue usually
14:58:05 <Yexo> try stopping all trains in a big savegame, you'll be able to notice the difference
14:58:18 <Yexo> which indicates that a stopped train takes much less cpu than a running one
14:58:24 <flitz> but the lookup for vehicle ids in the pool is linear, isn't it ?
14:58:49 <Yexo> however there are several FOR_ALL_VEHICLES(v) loops in the code, which would have to skip TempalteVehicle (in most cases)
14:59:16 <flitz> increasing the pool by about 5-10% would mean some increase in those lookups through runtime
14:59:27 <flitz> idk how much of a difference that would make
14:59:39 <planetmaker> Please remind me: what was the reason agains a separate pool for templates?
14:59:58 <Yexo> sorry, lookup for Vehicle* (from VehicleID) is constant, not linear
15:00:01 <flitz> to be able to use the existing functions for trains, like CmdMoveRailVehicle
15:00:04 * Yexo should pay more attention
15:00:31 <planetmaker> hm... isn't it just possible to have two vehicle pools?
15:00:46 <Yexo> sure, but that means you are already creating a second pool :)
15:01:06 <planetmaker> yes, that's what I'm asking, what reasons are there against that
15:01:27 <flitz> ah, I forgot that vehicle and the likes also inherit from poolitem
15:01:39 <Yexo> nothing really, but there is also nothing wrong with adding them to the existing vehicle pool
15:01:53 <flitz> so I don't even need to specified in which pool the lookup needs to be done
15:02:18 <planetmaker> hm... yeah, probably the disaster or effect vehicles are skipped in most cases anyway, too
15:02:35 <Yexo> and non-primary parts in several cases too
15:02:51 <planetmaker> yep, point taken :-)
15:02:54 <flitz> if I just use Train instead of TemplateVehicle but store them in their own pool, I wouldn't need to change anything to use CmdMoveRailVehicle and the likes on my templates, right ?
15:03:31 <Yexo> you can't use train and store them in another pool, at least not easily
15:04:53 <flitz> maybe I will just use Train and the usual vehicle pool then
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15:08:20 <Cozzie> wow im terrible at setting timetables =x
15:09:54 <flitz> Yexo: for this I would need to inherit BaseVehicle -> TemplateVehicle -> GroundVehicle in order to make this type-checkable at runtime ?
15:12:10 <Yexo> no, for this you don't need any type-checking at runtime at all
15:12:17 <Yexo> so you can inherit as you like
15:12:41 <Yexo> you just have to make sure that both Train and TemplateVehicle have the functions and variables used in CmdMoveAnyVehicle
15:13:45 <flitz> so this solution looks best, clean but still slim like intended
15:14:16 <flitz> I will need to check which commands I need to modify that way, I was intending to adopt some style from the depot-gui to use for template creation
15:14:37 <Yexo> how do you plan to draw a TemplateVehicle?
15:15:10 <Yexo> yes, but how to get the graphics?
15:15:56 <flitz> basically, like vehicles do, I just didn't look how they do it so far
15:16:35 <flitz> I though they had some kind of index into some kind of structure which maps available trains against used graphics sets or something like that
15:16:37 <Yexo> that'll be a lot of trouble
15:16:49 <Yexo> it's not quite as easy as that
15:17:11 <Yexo> well, not with newgrf vehicles at least
15:17:55 <Yexo> basically it'll come down to calling GetCustomEngineSprite(EngineID, Vehicle * (can be NULL), Direction)
15:18:20 <Yexo> however a wagon can modify it's graphics depending on which engine it's attached too, but you can't show those graphics in the template
15:18:47 <Yexo> which means a final vehicle will look different than the original template, despite having the same EngineIDs
15:19:20 <flitz> I should have informed myself better before starting
15:19:41 <Yexo> it's not a critical issue, but something to be aware of
15:20:15 <Yexo> I don't think there is a way around that problem without changes to the newgrf spec
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15:23:59 <flitz> lets say, there are 50 template-chains defined by one player at any one point within the game
15:24:07 <flitz> each one of avg length of 12 vehicles
15:24:26 <Cozzie> it's not really useful to have a timetable for a 2 station route with 30 buses (and breakdowns on) is it?
15:24:57 <Yexo> breakdowns on and timetables don't really work well together imo
15:25:18 <flitz> makes 206kb of additional memory used for my template trains (if they are real Train*'s)
15:25:29 <Cozzie> thought i was making some mistakes heh
15:25:39 <Cozzie> cause another route with 3 trucks work very well
15:25:45 <flitz> if lookup time is constant anyways
15:26:35 <flitz> and I don't run into future problems because my TemplateVehicle structure is missing something important
15:27:15 <supermop> now i really need to practice my german
15:27:43 <flitz> yexo: am I missing something ?
15:28:19 <Yexo> you'll have to take extra care so your template trains don't show up in the train list etc.
15:28:19 <flitz> then I will just use Train for simplicity :) thanks for the help
15:28:33 <supermop> its not just Lubs anymore
15:29:20 <flitz> yexo: I could just derive from train and make my own pool to deal with that
15:29:54 <Yexo> no, because in that case you can't reuse CmdMoveRailVehicle and friends anymore
15:30:20 <Yexo> because those call Vehicle::Get() to get a vehicle pointer from a VehicleID
15:31:54 <flitz> has Train its own Get() method ?
15:36:37 <flitz> "you'll have to take extra care so your template trains don't show up in the train list etc." <<-- then I guess, I could extend the subtype flag because it currently uses only 6 of its bits
15:42:06 <flitz> I need to go and buy some food, thanks for helping
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16:50:40 <Belugas> that is such a nice case of FEED-ME ;)
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16:56:57 <planetmaker> it very much is. But now I can always say "see here you lazy a**"
16:59:02 <__ln__> apropos, wouldn't ~/Library/Application Support/OpenTTD/data be a more appropriate place for data files?
17:01:01 <planetmaker> and for savegames? And screenshots?
17:02:35 <__ln__> not for those, obviously.
17:02:51 <planetmaker> which would mean to split up the OpenTTD folder
17:03:15 <planetmaker> while it might make sense from the intention of those folders, I'd not fancy to split up these things
17:03:45 <planetmaker> it'd mean much extra code for those dirs... for no real gain
17:04:12 <planetmaker> and it'd be more difficult to just backup your whole OpenTTD stuff
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17:07:18 <frosch123> planetmaker: i am unable to follow your download tutorial, there are no cute animals in the pictures
17:08:25 <planetmaker> I'm afraid I don't produce videos
17:08:51 <frosch123> yeah, your support sucks :p
17:09:37 <planetmaker> my vacuum cleaner is doing overtime to keep the sucking alive :-P
17:11:34 * frosch123 anticipates a warning for poseidon by some forum moderator
17:12:46 <planetmaker> he well deserves it. Already for his poll which does not contain a single word
17:13:12 <frosch123> yeah, that's what i meant. are there more reasons? :o
17:13:51 <planetmaker> :-) maybe the posting I replied to. But being less intelligent than my kitchen table usually is not punishable
17:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> it'd mean much extra code for those dirs... for no real gain <-- i thought that code is already there
17:15:18 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: for a split of the data dir?
17:15:33 <planetmaker> I haven't looked, but I'd be surprised
17:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: for supporting "Application Support" dir
17:16:44 <planetmaker> and not being used?
17:16:55 <supermop_> i need to find a german tutor
17:17:10 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by bjarni :: r11837 /trunk (config.lib src/fileio.cpp) (2008-01-13 17:45:29 UTC)
17:17:11 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Feature: [OSX] added "/Library/Application Support/OpenTTD" to the search paths (based on patch by pv2b)
17:17:12 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: It is possible to set this to something else setting shared-dir with config
17:17:13 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: This works on other OSes as well but it's off by default (and not really tested)
17:18:17 <Ammler> not working with linux afaik
17:18:33 <planetmaker> that's why it's prefixed [OSX]
17:18:51 <Ammler> "...This works on other OSes..."
17:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> "not [...] tested"
17:19:15 <Ammler> yeah, if you enable it of course :-P
17:19:44 <__ln__> thank you Bjarni for implementing my suggestion three years before i suggested it.
17:21:08 <Ammler> linux default share could be e.g. /usr/share/openttd
17:21:44 <Ammler> and the packager could set it to /usr/local/share/openttd
17:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: other way round?!?
17:22:26 <flitz> you want to bring openttd into some linux distro ?
17:22:47 <Ammler> /usr/local/games/openttd is default for local already
17:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> /local is for non-packaged stuff
17:23:17 <Ammler> but it would be nice, if your local build could also search in the distro install
17:23:59 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: this is additional to the data dir
17:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, now i see how you mean it. if /usr/share/openttd is already the data-dir, shared-dir may be /usr/local/share/openttd
17:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and for non-packaged, it would be swapped
17:26:10 <Ammler> well, the default openttd path is something debianish with games
17:27:55 <Ammler> that is the reason, it is not enabled, as you would have 2 "default" shares already, for debian and the rest linux
17:28:44 <frosch123> someone played too much civilisation... a townname grf featuring "babylon", "constantinople" (and "istanbul")
17:34:24 <flitz> can anyone play TOO MUCH civilization ? ;)
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17:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i second that question :p
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17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22323 /trunk/src/lang/ (norwegian_bokmal.txt norwegian_nynorsk.txt slovenian.txt):
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 3 changes by 2rB
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 41 changes by 2rB
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 2 changes by ntadej
17:46:54 <Ruudjah> what happened with that opengl renderer?
17:47:43 <Ruudjah> wasnt there a fairly good opengl renderer patch?
17:47:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: wasn't that horribly slow, because it was only optimised for multiple-of-8 sprite sizes?
17:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> or power-of-two even
17:49:00 <Ruudjah> iirc it beat the cpu renderer
17:49:28 <Ruudjah> at least at low zoom levels
17:49:31 <peter1138> i think there's some non-standard extension, but in general, that's an opengl limit :S
17:50:02 <peter1138> and yeah, my one was fast at normal zoom
17:50:12 <peter1138> hideously slow when zoomed out
17:51:16 <peter1138> otoh, i did it with one texture per sprite
17:51:22 <peter1138> which is simple, but inefficientr
17:52:16 <peter1138> but to build a sprite sheet is awkward in openttd's architecture
17:54:22 <peter1138> in fact openttd's current nice blitter system still relies on pointers to represent viewport location
17:54:31 <peter1138> which is a bit of a bugger for opengl
17:56:15 * andythenorth_ ponders updating the pony farm
17:58:08 * peter1138 ponders updating the opengl patch
17:58:55 <peter1138> openttd written in jquery
17:59:07 <SpComb> doesn't google have something for that
18:00:15 <Eddi|zuHause> err... wait... steam engines don't smoke under bridges?!
18:00:53 <peter1138> The driver turns off the smoke button.
18:01:03 <peter1138> (Similar to an undo knob)
18:10:55 <andythenorth_> two of those ponies are blocking FIRS and it would be nice to let them run free :)
18:10:58 <andythenorth_> one is just a niggle
18:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: you have some stale [i]
18:26:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... bridges could use some random recolouring
18:27:09 <supermop_> little bits of CC paint?
18:27:33 <Eddi|zuHause> bridges are often recoloured already, but it's static.
18:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it could use the same pseudo-random bits like trees
18:28:19 <Eddi|zuHause> based on tile hash
18:30:03 <andythenorth_> add it to the pony list :P
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18:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: wtf are you talking about?
18:31:50 <andythenorth_> he means the forth bridge scenario
18:32:01 <andythenorth_> bridge graphics vary by time
18:32:05 <andythenorth_> due to repainting
18:33:11 <andythenorth_> speaking of repainting
18:33:14 <supermop_> or golden gate, by the time the painters get to one side, they have to start over at the other
18:33:18 * andythenorth_ wonders which FIRS industry to repaint next
18:33:24 <andythenorth_> FIRS is like the golden gate
18:33:38 <andythenorth_> I finish painting everything, I have to start repainting them :|
18:33:55 <supermop_> people want open mines i guess? i am fine with shaft mines
18:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: ore mine
18:34:01 <andythenorth_> screw open mines :)
18:34:10 <andythenorth_> ore mind does need painting
18:34:16 <andythenorth_> I'm in a re-painting mood though
18:34:39 <andythenorth_> I can do (a) snow (b) some prettier ground tiles for some industry (c) make something more TTD-like
18:34:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: and because i have played TTO for "too long", i always mistake the bauxite mine for an ore mine...
18:34:58 <andythenorth_> that needs fixing
18:35:25 <andythenorth_> I can repaint Grain Mill or Glassworks
18:35:33 <andythenorth_> or add some lawn to Dairy
18:35:54 <supermop_> it looks just like some workshop, most others you can tell what they do by looking
18:36:08 <andythenorth_> I'm not sure what glass works should look like
18:36:15 <andythenorth_> I could repaint 100% from scratch
18:36:23 <andythenorth_> google images provides no inspiration
18:36:46 <__ln__> 20:16 < supermop_> i need to find a german tutor <-- isn't this channel full of such?
18:37:14 <supermop_> i guess they would be pretty generic in real life
18:37:32 <planetmaker> there might be Germans... but tutor? Is quite a vague description ;-)
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18:38:07 <Eddi|zuHause> well, my suggestion was to switch this channel to german for a week, then he'd get some use ;)
18:38:26 <supermop_> maybe larger chunks on metal in the piles at the junk yard
18:38:37 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: i fully support that idea
18:38:49 <supermop_> are you Germans familiar with Dieter Rams?
18:39:07 <Eddi|zuHause> never heard of that name
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18:40:12 <supermop_> heh, i guess he is only legendary in ver specific circles
18:40:24 <andythenorth_> the clerestory roof is not very TTD style
18:40:31 <supermop_> i need to work on my english typing as well
18:43:01 <andythenorth_> maybe I can make the glassworks more TTD style in layout as well as shading
18:43:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "Dieter Rams war Chefdesigner des Elektrogeräteherstellers Braun und gilt manchen als Großvater des Apple Designs"
18:44:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well... as long as google knows him...
18:44:38 <__ln__> supermop_: bitte auf deutsch
18:47:07 <supermop_> Herr Rams war der Hauptdesigner von meine Firm?
18:48:51 <planetmaker> Welche Produkte stellt Deine Firma her?
18:51:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that reminds me: industries tend to have incredibly tall chimneys, in FIRS, they look rather short, or in case of the cement works, very wide
18:53:14 <andythenorth_> I've tried making them taller...but it looks odd
18:53:20 <andythenorth_> selective compression ;)
18:53:32 <supermop_> i think they should be short, as TT is sort of cartoonish
18:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: but the one in the brick works looks ok
18:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the others look shorter
18:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and the cement works one is definitely too wide
18:57:11 <andythenorth_> raise a ticket :)
18:57:19 <andythenorth_> cement works needs repainting anyway
18:57:50 <andythenorth_> it would be nice to have extended tiles action 2s before I do that
18:57:58 <andythenorth_> otherwise moving the smoke is world of pain :|
18:58:45 <Eddi|zuHause> do the mines first ;)
19:02:28 <andythenorth_> I'm not in the mood for new sprites right now :)
19:02:43 <andythenorth_> I need to shake off the 'FIRS looks like OpenGFX' comments, they bother me :P
19:02:58 <andythenorth_> (nothing wrong with OpenGFX, but it's not the intended style for FIRS)
19:04:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22324 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix: Vehicles skipped orders when inserting automatic orders failed.
19:04:26 <__ln__> supermop_: aus welcher bundesstaat sind sie?
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19:10:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22325 /trunk/src/lang/slovenian.txt: -Fix: Slovenian iso code was wrong
19:10:18 <planetmaker> __ln__: aus welchem...
19:10:18 <__ln__> i was about to add a disclaimer that one shouldn't embrace grammar from my sentences....
19:16:00 <frosch123> [21:05] <__ln__> ach so <- in that context it sounds like "that explains a lot" :p
19:20:03 <Eddi|zuHause> man, electrification is expensive
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20:34:24 <planetmaker> willkommen zurück
20:47:24 <supermop> was sagt man 'wie gehts' mit ein 'Sie' Person
20:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause> no german would ever say that :p
20:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause> "wie geht es Ihnen"
20:47:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but be cautious: a german might tell you how he's _actually_ feeling
20:53:14 <andythenorth> snow graphics in default ttd are inconsistent
20:53:14 <supermop> apparently i need to buy a legit bonsai tree for this dude
20:53:14 <supermop> and a real kaya goban
20:53:14 <__ln__> "how are you doing?" ist eine univeraler gruß auf amerikanisch, aber "wie geht's?" ist nicht ganz dasselbe ding, oder?
20:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: the meaning is mostly the same, but it's used less commonly, i believe
20:54:36 <planetmaker> __ln__: I always feel a bit awkward when being asked by somewhat strangers "Wie geht's?"
20:55:04 <planetmaker> as it's basically pointless chit-chatter. No one who asks that expects an answer so either you're fine or you lie.
20:55:34 <andythenorth> conversational gambit
20:55:55 <__ln__> when i visited the US last summer, at first i was kind of confused about the "how are you doing?" greeting, i wondered if they actually want to know how i'm doing or should i always answer "great".
20:56:22 <andythenorth> always answer 'awesome'
20:57:31 <supermop> nah, always say eh, ok
20:57:40 <andythenorth> that's in canada
20:57:51 <__ln__> "i'm operating within normal parameters"
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20:57:59 <supermop> eh to rhyme with meh, not with 'a'
20:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> answer "Naja, ich hab so Probleme mit der Hüfte und dann der lange Flug, da bin ich jetzt total geschafft [...]"
21:00:59 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes, sometimes I'm tempted. Or telling a story about my grandmothers or so
21:01:06 <supermop> you guys think a german would care if i got a kaya goban, or just shin kaya
21:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i have no idea what either of those are
21:01:34 <planetmaker> supermop: would an American care?
21:01:50 <planetmaker> would a Japanese care? Or does it depend on the individual person?
21:02:19 <supermop> my boss said we need to have to some Japanese stuff around that would be appropriate to his aesthetic
21:02:40 <supermop> he raises his own Bonsai, so I know he would care about that
21:02:47 <supermop> the goban i dont know
21:03:46 <supermop> i dont know if i should get wabi-sabi stuff in general, like a random piece of driftwood or pottery, or if it has to be very design-y
21:04:09 <planetmaker> Hm... if I go someplace, I don't expect the people to know about my hobbies and to actually fan me about them...
21:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: so if he already has a bonsai, why give him another one?
21:06:26 <Eddi|zuHause> give him something that he _doesn't_ already have
21:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> if i go to new york, i'd expect to get new-york-y presents. and i give them Hallorenkugeln and Rotkäppchen Sekt.
21:07:35 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: indeed. I'd rather expect something original American. Maybe give him a leatherman. Or alike ;-)
21:07:58 <planetmaker> then it's worse IMHO ;-)
21:07:59 <supermop> its to make the shop look dieter-y
21:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i think it's the totally wrong approach.
21:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure why, but i have this image of Al Bundy in front of me, preparing the shop when his boss "Gary" visits.
21:10:07 <supermop> I am disappointed that Germans know who Al Bundy is
21:10:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and then "Gary" turns out to be something very different from what he expected
21:10:18 <supermop> does not reflect well on us
21:11:37 <planetmaker> You may be surprised how many US TV shows are known ;-)
21:11:49 <supermop> not surprised at all
21:11:56 <supermop> disapointed all the same
21:12:25 <planetmaker> why is it disappointing that it's known outside the US?
21:13:16 <supermop> Because many of our shows are very bad/crude/etc
21:13:54 <supermop> Americanization, in a bad way
21:14:51 <supermop> and the syndication revenue promotes studios to keep making bland or uninspired work to sell
21:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: and the british should be disappointed because we know Mr. Bean?
21:16:02 <supermop> I just feel like that for every German watching married with children, thats someone who isn't seeing something better from America or another country
21:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not getting your point. yes, your "TV/movie industry" is 100% profit driven, but that doesn't mean all shows are bad. and the worst ones are filtered out before they get on german television
21:16:26 <supermop> a lot of good, clever shows, like Arrested Development fall through the cracks
21:17:07 <supermop> and then maybe all europeans think most americans are like al bundy or something
21:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a weird chain of thought
21:17:49 <supermop> we dont get much non-british european TV here
21:18:32 <supermop> i just feel a bit embarassed sometmes
21:18:55 <__ln__> don't worry, homer simpson is your ambassador to the world
21:20:03 <supermop> thats kind of the problem, the Simpsons started out very clever, but after 20+ years, I feel like it isn't really contributing anymore
21:20:26 <planetmaker> it's said that they depict the US quite well in a satirical way :-)
21:20:36 <planetmaker> I have the feeling it might be right
21:20:50 <supermop> but, the US is not so monolithic
21:25:29 <supermop> it is a huge area with many distinct regional cultures
21:25:29 <planetmaker> that's the artistic license. And not one of the messages I ever saw there
21:25:29 <supermop> its kind of sad that it all get bundled up, not just for Europeans, but also for americans
21:25:29 <supermop> so much of the local vareity is being destroyed
21:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that's called "globalisation"
21:25:29 <supermop> still can be nostalgic about it
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21:25:29 <supermop> i just don't want to be Al Bundy
21:29:00 <supermop> I should just brush up on architeture vocabulary and talk to this guy about the Metabolists
21:29:00 <__ln__> does someone remember if ESTA needs to be valid on the day of entering the country, or during the whole stay?
21:30:00 <FauxFaux> The US "we want your soul" form.
21:32:06 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: the electronic form one needs to fill in at least 72 hours in advance before entering the US, and it is accepted or not accepted.
21:33:03 <__ln__> the one where they ask if you've participated in a genocide, etc.
21:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought european countries are excluded from this stuff
21:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause> man... this has changed... last time i visited the US you just had to fill out a form in the plane
21:33:56 <__ln__> it's the "visa-waiver" program; when you fill ESTA, you don't need a real visa.
21:34:01 <supermop> i thought you can still do that
21:34:22 <supermop> an EU citizen shouldnt need a visa for a short trip anyway
21:34:23 <__ln__> as far as i know ESTA is mandatory nowadays.
21:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway... don't take my advice for that stuff :p
21:35:25 <planetmaker> but there's an "entry fee".
21:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, "it's like disney land" :p
21:37:22 <__ln__> i filled in my ESTA when it was free.
21:37:41 <__ln__> "Wenn Ihnen eine elektronische Reisegenehmigung erteilt wird, gilt dies als Nachweis, dass Sie im Rahmen des Programms für visumfreies Reisen (Visa Waiver Program) zur Reise in die Vereinigten Staaten berechtigt sind, aber es lässt sich daraus nicht ableiten, dass Ihnen die Einreise in die Vereinigten Staaten bewilligt wird. Bei Ankunft in den Vereinigten Staaten werden Sie an einer Einreisestelle von einem Beamten der Zoll- und Grenzschutzbehörde (Customs
21:41:14 <__ln__> "C) Waren Sie jemals oder sind Sie gegenwärtig an Spionage- oder Sabotageakten, an terroristischen Aktivitäten oder an Völkermord beteiligt, oder waren Sie zwischen 1933 und 1945 in irgendeiner Weise an Verfolgungsmaßnahmen in Zusammenhang mit dem Naziregime oder dessen Verbündeten beteiligt? [ ] Ja [ ] Nein"
21:41:58 <supermop> how many people that old are there still around anyway?
21:43:37 <supermop> gah this stuff is so expensive
21:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of people age 16-30 in 1945 are still alive
21:44:59 <supermop> the 30 year olds would be getting close to 100
21:45:12 <supermop> not sure if i would travel internationally at that age
21:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> my grandfather turns 91 next month
21:46:31 <supermop> and my grandfather passed away at 94 last month,
21:46:48 <supermop> he was in ok shape, but not flying anywhere
21:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> he was in stalingrad, but got out due to an injury. towards the end of the war he got into a prisoner of war camp in texas
21:47:11 <supermop> I mean it seems like that clause in the form would be of extremely limited use
21:47:38 <Eddi|zuHause> he was in a horse-artillery unit
21:47:54 <supermop> he fought in the philipines though, and a couple of years ago told me he wanted to go to Japan to visit
21:48:25 <__ln__> cannons pulled with horse power
21:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> a cannon dragged by a horse
21:48:52 <supermop> didnt know those were used in Russian theather
21:48:56 <__ln__> as opposed to trucks, like in modern-day artillery
21:49:14 <supermop> thought they used like half-tracks to pull that stuff
21:49:17 <Eddi|zuHause> fuel was sparse... why wouldn't you use a horse?
21:49:25 <supermop> expensive to feed it
21:49:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but horse food is easier to come by than oil
21:50:37 <__ln__> and a horse without proper maintenance is probably more reliable than a truck without proper maintenance
21:51:17 <supermop> hmm i need some decent go stones for myself
21:56:39 <__ln__> "B) ..... oder haben Sie jemals Drogen in Umlauf gebracht, oder beabsichtigen Sie, zum Zweck krimineller oder sittenwidriger Handlungen einzureisen? [ ] Ja [ ] Nein"
21:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't even specify which drugs...
21:58:08 <Eddi|zuHause> is alcohol a drug?
21:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> is chocolate a drug?
21:59:15 <glx> is chocolate with alcohol inside... ?
22:02:10 <supermop> what if it is prescribed?
22:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what if it's a legal drug in your country, but illegal in the USA?
22:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> what if it's the other way around?
22:06:01 <__ln__> good question... however, i assume if you answer "Ja" to any of those questions, the esta will be rejected.
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23:28:23 <Eddi|zuHause> "no catch. 5 min to historic pripyat" :p
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continue to next day ⏵
