IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-10
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00:59:39 <Wolf01> 'night
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01:42:37 <adamkex> what ai should i use?
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02:42:07 <Nite> anyone on at this time?
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04:29:16 <Chris_Booth> nite I am 2 hours later XD
04:29:26 <Chris_Booth> Nite I am 2 hours later XD
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07:08:37 <andythenorth> windmill animation is very boring
07:09:20 <Rubidium> maybe animate catastrophic blade failure?
07:10:42 <andythenorth> ho
07:10:45 <andythenorth> maybe
07:10:59 <andythenorth> it would be much easier to animate a 'day without wind'
07:11:30 <Alberth> or have it rotate so fast you don't see the blades any more :)
07:11:46 <andythenorth> tried that already :P
07:12:04 <Rubidium> Alberth: fails when the game's paused ;)
07:13:09 <Alberth> time freezing is a bug in the program :)
07:13:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: you could pull FIRS and give your opinion
07:13:41 <andythenorth> ?
07:14:02 <Alberth> besides, you can build new stuff while paused, so it is not that paused at all :p
07:16:47 <Alberth> pulling and building works with the latest grfcodec ! :p
07:17:23 <Alberth> let me have a look what version I played last
07:18:16 <Terkhen> good morning
07:19:19 <Alberth> good morning
07:19:20 <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
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07:25:23 <Alberth> something specific you want me to look at?
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07:36:20 <andythenorth> Alberth: the windmill
07:36:37 <andythenorth> it builds as a layout variation on the grain mill
07:36:43 <andythenorth> it will be 1 tile on the map
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07:46:14 <Alberth> any year limitation for the windmill?
07:55:16 <andythenorth> there will be
07:55:17 <Ruudjah> what does it produce? energy, which can be loaded in battery equipped wagons, and discharged at drop stations?
07:55:18 <andythenorth> not yet
07:55:27 <andythenorth> Ruudjah: food :P
07:55:41 <Alberth> batteries only exist as cargo in toyland
07:56:11 <Ruudjah> wagons with batteries would have same freight factor empty & full :P
07:58:16 <Alberth> I don't see any windmill yet
07:59:50 <andythenorth> Alberth: doesn't appear on every map
08:00:22 <andythenorth> if you restrict minimap to 'grain mill' only, you might find one near a town
08:00:37 <andythenorth> it's pink on the minimap
08:00:41 <andythenorth> single tile
08:08:30 <Alberth> ah found it. at 1024x1024 hilly, high towns, and high industries, 3 of 35 grain mills are wind mills
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08:09:29 <Alberth> you are so lucky the wind is coming from one direction only :p
08:09:54 <Alberth> at least, at first sight it does not look like you can turn the mill towards the wind :)
08:10:23 <__ln__> can one fight windmills?
08:11:09 <Alberth> <-- they are usually more round
08:11:40 <Alberth> __ln__: OpenTTD does not do war
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08:12:54 <Alberth> <-- and 'squarish' mills rotate at a lower point
08:13:54 <Alberth> __ln__: you can remove them with the magic bulldozer :p
08:14:20 <__ln__> magic bulldozer is not quite the same as a knight and his horse
08:14:42 <andythenorth> Alberth: yes it's a square one
08:14:52 <andythenorth> that's the way it came to me ;)
08:15:02 <andythenorth> via zephyris and danmack
08:15:11 <andythenorth> I'm not sure how it rotates
08:15:28 <andythenorth> but if I look too deeply into that I have to repaint in depth...
08:16:28 <Alberth> it's possibly just me, I grew up with mills around me :)
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08:28:20 <andythenorth> drawing a petrol pump is tricky
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08:50:17 <Wolf01> 'morning
08:57:11 <yorick> can anyone reproduce a server crash when you kick yourself using rcon?
08:57:13 <yorick> (1.1.0)
08:59:36 <Yexo> yes
09:01:21 <yorick> I remember that being fixed last year. someone un-fixed it?
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09:28:26 <andythenorth> BROS sucks in another victim :P
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09:33:22 <ZirconiumX> Hello all
09:33:56 <ZirconiumX> Yexo, Is there a way for an AI to find out how much CPU it is using?
09:35:35 <yorick> no
09:36:12 <ZirconiumX> Evidently he is away
09:36:13 <Zuu> You can count how many ticks an operation/algorithm takes.
09:36:27 <Zuu> Mind that an AI by default have 10 000 op codes per tick.
09:36:33 <ZirconiumX> thanks Zuu
09:37:09 <Yexo> ZirconiumX: no
09:37:19 <ZirconiumX> darn
09:37:27 <ZirconiumX> ermmm
09:37:45 <ZirconiumX> this is going to be fun
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09:38:03 <Yexo> also number of opcodes != amount of cpu usage
09:38:04 <ZirconiumX>
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09:39:35 <ZirconiumX> sorry - Firefox quit unexpectedly
09:39:45 <Yexo> I'm not known with D*, but the default A* library already has that functionality
09:40:34 <ZirconiumX> Wouldn't it be a 'safety' to poll how much CPU it's using and 'die' if it uses too much?
09:40:49 <ZirconiumX> w.r.t an AI
09:40:51 <Yexo> that's very hard to do
09:41:05 <Yexo> the opcodes are a relatively simple way to do approximately that
09:41:18 <ZirconiumX> ah - ok
09:41:28 <ZirconiumX> so
09:42:03 <ZirconiumX> approx calculations = [number of ticks] x [number of opcodes / tick]
09:42:12 <ZirconiumX> *approx*
09:42:32 <ZirconiumX> @logs
09:42:32 <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX:
09:42:33 <Yexo> for a very broad definition of "calculation", yes
09:42:58 <Zuu> Yexo: yes ticks/op codes aren't exactly CPU usage, but the closest I think ZirconiumX get to what he is looking for.
09:43:07 <Yexo> agreed
09:43:23 <ZirconiumX> Hmm
09:43:36 <ZirconiumX> thank you
09:43:45 <ZirconiumX> I'll scribble that down
09:44:35 <Yexo> a lot of built in math functions (like sqrt, sin, cos, log, pow, exp) for example take 100 opcodes
09:45:35 <ZirconiumX> Though it'll be a *bad* idea - I might set maxSteps to [number of ticks] x [number of opcodes / tick] / 16
09:46:00 <ZirconiumX> yes - it would be a bad idea
09:46:08 <Yexo> a pathfinder will take way more than 16 opcodes per step
09:46:14 * andythenorth grumbles more about petrol station
09:46:24 <Yexo> my guess would be something between 100 and 1000
09:46:48 <ZirconiumX> I'll set it to a low setting - /10,000?
09:47:01 <ZirconiumX> the thing is though
09:47:54 <ZirconiumX> no path makes it cycle though quicker - pushing up maxsteps
09:48:10 <ZirconiumX> the tortoise and runner problem
09:48:15 <Yexo> set maxSteps to a tenth of what you want it to be, measure how many ticks that first tenth of the computation took and keep doing that until you go over your allotted amount of ticks
09:48:46 <ZirconiumX> the guy who wrote it set it to 80,000
09:49:13 <Yexo> what number you should use it completely dependend on how long each step takes and how many nodes there are in total
09:49:38 * welshdragon leaves in the channel and runs
09:49:38 <ZirconiumX> which is fine for a stand alone application - but too high for an application running alongside another
09:49:38 <Yexo> that depends on how you encode a node (one tile or tile + direction)
09:50:57 <ZirconiumX> I've been thinking about A*
09:51:12 <ZirconiumX> If you had
09:51:28 <ZirconiumX> node blank node blank node blank etc.
09:51:40 <ZirconiumX> blank blank blank blank etc.
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09:51:48 <ZirconiumX> node blank node blank etc.
09:51:54 <ZirconiumX> Mr ARo!
09:52:12 <LordAro> good morning
09:52:14 <ZirconiumX> wouldn't that speed up A*
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09:52:22 <Yexo> what is "node" and what is "blank"? Why would that speed up A*?
09:52:23 <ZirconiumX> as it has less calculations
09:52:37 <ZirconiumX> node = a node
09:52:44 <ZirconiumX> blank = no node
09:52:57 <Yexo> so what does "node blank node blank node blank" mean?
09:53:24 <ZirconiumX> node there, no node there, node there, no node there
09:53:53 <Yexo> do you know that any pathfinder finds a route over connections between nodes?
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09:54:13 <ZirconiumX> no
09:54:16 <Yexo> sure, if you mark half the tiles on the map as "can't go there" you speed up A*
09:54:24 <Yexo> however you also disable a lot of potential paths
09:54:38 <Yexo> have you ever written a pathfinder at all?
09:54:49 <ZirconiumX> no
09:54:58 <ZirconiumX> I'm an idiot - I know
09:55:00 <Yexo> start with that before trying to optimize something you don't fully understand
09:55:19 <Yexo> you're not an idiot, you're just going too fast
09:55:47 * ZirconiumX is embarrassed - my employer is watching
09:56:06 <ZirconiumX> not work as such
09:56:19 * LordAro lols
09:56:34 <ZirconiumX> it's you I'm talking about
09:57:26 <ZirconiumX> I'm in charge of a subject I *don't know about* in a language I *don't know about - ish*
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09:57:55 <ZirconiumX> I wonder
09:58:37 * ZirconiumX might know how to learn squirrel - would go against morals though
09:59:03 <ZirconiumX> I've always wanted to code a chess engine - I have the squirrel compiler
09:59:59 <ZirconiumX> that may make me more familiar - imagine an openttd chess engine
10:00:05 * ZirconiumX is going off on one
10:00:25 <Yexo> a decent chess engine is way harder than a decent pathfinder
10:00:53 <ZirconiumX> who said that it had to be 'decent'
10:01:30 <Alberth> if that also holds for a pathfinder, the problem is way simpler
10:01:55 <ZirconiumX> It'd get me used to creating tracks etc.
10:02:04 <Alberth> just lay track in a random direction
10:02:16 <LordAro> anything i can do about this: ?
10:02:42 <ZirconiumX> hah
10:02:45 <Yexo> you can try submitting that bug report they ask you about
10:02:46 <ZirconiumX> maybe
10:02:57 <LordAro> Yexo: to gnu?
10:03:17 <Yexo> to wherever you downloaded msys from
10:03:28 <Yexo> or you mingw gcc version
10:03:32 <ZirconiumX> I'll see what happens when I feed Xcode this - or whatever
10:03:55 <Yexo> depending on what version of gcc you have I'd say it's very unlikely to get fixed though
10:04:11 <LordAro> --version says 4.5.0
10:04:17 <ZirconiumX> what version of GCC do you have
10:04:23 <ZirconiumX> hmm
10:04:46 <LordAro> much lag you have, mister ZirconiumX ;)
10:05:18 <ZirconiumX> I'd typed that just before you said
10:05:56 <ZirconiumX> I'd try - but GCC is broken
10:06:43 <ZirconiumX> whenever I compile openttd source make complains
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10:07:11 <ZirconiumX> It appears to be a broken ISO C++
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10:15:57 <LordAro> hmm, same problem with 4.5.2... :(
10:18:25 <Rubidium> LordAro: do you have enough free memory? If so, try if freeing some memory helps. Do you run compilations in parallel (make -jN, N > 1)? If so, try if not running im parallel (make -j1) helps.
10:19:23 <Rubidium> the CF sometimes seems to trigger that (or a similar) crash, but most of the times it was transient and thusly I'd guess related to the amount free memory (knowing how the CF is configured)
10:20:19 <ZirconiumX> svn is complaining
10:21:06 <ZirconiumX>
10:22:01 <LordAro> you appear to have put 2 commands together
10:22:31 <ZirconiumX> darn mibpaste
10:22:43 <LordAro> use pastebin
10:22:52 <LordAro> or at least not mibpaste
10:23:21 <ZirconiumX>
10:23:39 <Yexo> try /trunk instead of /trunksvn
10:24:00 <LordAro> Rubidium/whoever: updating my g++ seems to have worked, or, it hasn't finished compiling yet, but it's got past where it was failing
10:24:05 <Yexo> the error message if pretty clear
10:24:36 <ZirconiumX> sigh
10:25:34 <Yexo> ZirconiumX: are you OTTDmaster on the devzone?
10:25:42 <ZirconiumX> yes
10:25:53 <Yexo> do you still want that D* project there?
10:25:58 <ZirconiumX> yes
10:26:00 <Yexo> ok
10:26:05 <ZirconiumX> ty
10:26:38 <ZirconiumX> whats it called?
10:26:43 <ZirconiumX> ai-dstar?
10:28:21 <Yexo>
10:28:46 <ZirconiumX> thanks
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10:30:42 <LordAro> possible report: when starting openttd (win32-mingw) without a graphics set, with './openttd -d5', it generates crash files
10:41:47 <andythenorth> Improved petrol pump:
10:41:47 <andythenorth>
10:41:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^
10:42:08 <andythenorth> it's been a bit painful, I'm not 100% on the result
10:42:20 <andythenorth> btw, a price sign doesn't seem to work
10:42:25 <andythenorth> looks odd
10:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, definitely an improvement over the previous one, though ;)
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10:47:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the stripe on the roof is company coloured?
10:47:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22309 /trunk/src/ (aircraft_cmd.cpp roadveh_cmd.cpp ship_cmd.cpp): -Fix: Make road vehicles, ships and aircraft skip orders if they are leaving a depot and heading to the same one again; just like trains since r16322.
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10:53:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes
10:53:24 <andythenorth> it was thicker earlier today, but it looked out of proportion to houses
10:55:00 <andythenorth> I've abandoned ideas of trying to join it to road pieces, that's never going to work well
10:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's probably right
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11:49:21 <LordAro> anyone know why ./openttd -d5 isn't working - just crashes, without any crash files
11:49:26 <LordAro> ./openttd works fine
11:52:35 <Ammler> and "./" does tell us, which version you use?
11:53:23 <Ammler> works here with 1.1.0
11:53:50 <Ammler> LordAro: also no error on the console?
11:54:05 <LordAro> well, my slightly modified trunk
11:54:08 <LordAro> and no
11:54:48 <Ammler> then you should as first try to reproduce with "clean" trunk
11:54:49 <ZirconiumX> what do you mean by 'slightly modified'?
11:56:13 <LordAro> Ammler: ok, whats the way to revert patched files?
11:57:36 <LordAro> ZirconiumX: this patch:
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11:58:22 <LordAro> ^ mr john shepard failed to hide himself i think :)
11:58:23 <Ammler> LordAro: use mercurial mq
11:58:54 <Ammler> if you insist on svn, you should use multiple checkouts
11:59:05 <LordAro> maybe...
11:59:41 <Ammler> a clean trunk and one for your patches
11:59:56 <LordAro> stuff it, i'm getting hg now
12:00:53 <Ammler> oh, you got admin rights on the pc now?
12:01:39 <ZirconiumX> stay with svn
12:01:47 <ZirconiumX> trust me
12:01:52 <LordAro> Ammler: no, different pc, different place
12:01:53 <ZirconiumX> hg is slower
12:02:04 <ZirconiumX> well not as such
12:02:16 <LordAro> and besides, i had hg anyway, albeit on a portable command prompt
12:02:19 <ZirconiumX> it just looks at *every* commit first
12:02:20 <Ammler> ZirconiumX: oh, you develop so fast?
12:02:39 <ZirconiumX> compiling takes forever
12:03:03 <Ammler> yes, the uses vcs matters quite much for compiling
12:03:14 <Ammler> used*
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12:03:26 <LordAro> ammler: hg can import svn patches can't it?
12:03:30 <ZirconiumX> haven't tried git
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12:03:33 <ZirconiumX> yes
12:04:06 <ZirconiumX> you can patch hg with svn
12:04:11 <Ammler> LordAro: as said, I would use MQ, dunno if that is too advanced :-)
12:04:12 <ZirconiumX> (code)
12:04:39 <LordAro> Ammler: for now, yes.
12:04:43 <Ammler> then you can enable/disable & combine patches quite easy
12:04:58 <LordAro> i'll look into it again
12:05:29 <Ammler> start with "hg help mq"
12:06:07 <Ammler> most important are qnew, qpush and qpop, the rest you learn when needed :-)
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12:10:17 <Ammler> ZirconiumX: just in case, you didn't notice the irony, the used vcs does not matter for compiling
12:10:47 <ZirconiumX> no
12:11:20 <Ammler> except maybe
12:11:56 <Alberth> ZirconiumX: svn is useless as version control system unless you have commit access
12:12:23 <Alberth> with hg you can actually manage your patches
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12:13:22 <Alberth> LordAro: how is the readme patch going?
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12:13:46 <LordAro>
12:14:25 <Ammler> wow
12:16:22 <Alberth> so you copy/pasted the newgrf parameter window?
12:16:37 <LordAro> yes :) i will change it at some point
12:16:42 <LordAro> honest...
12:17:04 <Alberth> no problem, you have to start somewhere
12:17:43 <Alberth> in this way you have something that works, which may be easier than building something from scratch
12:18:06 <LordAro> my thoughts exactly
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13:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... building materials: rather in open, closed or tank wagon?
13:41:07 <Eddi|zuHause> grfcodec doesn't happen to have a bitmask-escape?
13:44:30 <Rubidium> no(t yet)
13:46:09 <Rubidium> what classes of building materials?
13:47:12 <Eddi|zuHause> seems the glass works and the cement mill produce building materials
13:47:15 <Rubidium> those concrete blocks and concrete floor panels should go on an open wagon, concrete mix (sand + gravel + cement) in tank wagons, ...
13:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i should suggest the saw mill to do so, as well...
13:47:55 <Rubidium> I've only seen closed pilkington trucks
13:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, no, there's also a processor for wood->wdpr->bdmt
13:48:46 <Rubidium> (Pilkington = glass)
13:49:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so there seems to be glass, cement and wood as possible candidates for building materials... don't see a metal based one (yet)
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13:51:04 <Eddi|zuHause> glass, wood, cement and bricks, no metal...
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14:50:42 <ZirconiumX> @logs
14:50:42 <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX:
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14:54:44 <Alberth> ZirconiumX: you are aware of the 'bookmarks' feature of your browser?
14:55:23 <ZirconiumX> and the logs are not an important thing to ad
14:56:30 <Yexo> they seem important enough for you to visit them regularly
14:56:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22310 /trunk/src/widgets/ (dropdown.cpp dropdown_type.h): -Codechange: Derive DropDownListCharStringItem from DropDownListStringItem.
14:57:17 <ZirconiumX> I'm revisiting the comments about D*
14:59:20 <Alberth> openttd is not completely known ?
15:00:01 * ZirconiumX wonders why frosch is so good at alliteration
15:00:25 <Eddi|zuHause> he didn't write "drom"
15:00:57 <ZirconiumX> and?
15:01:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22311 /trunk/src/widgets/ (dropdown.cpp dropdown_type.h): -Add: DropDownListStringItem::NatSortFunc() which can be used as comparator function in DropDownList::sort().
15:01:29 <ZirconiumX> not all alliterations use the same letter all the time - just most
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15:03:51 <Eddi|zuHause> ZirconiumX: i'm questioning your insinuation that he actually wanted to write an alliteration
15:04:44 <frosch123> ZirconiumX: because i am qualified in Latin
15:05:35 <ZirconiumX> Aaaargh! HG is being a
15:05:51 <ZirconiumX> damned nuisance
15:07:13 * Alberth is very happy with HG
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15:07:57 <ZirconiumX> abort: /Users/ralphbrades/DStar/.hgignore: invalid pattern (relre): *.tar
15:08:05 <ZirconiumX> abort: /Users/ralphbrades/DStar/.hgignore: invalid pattern (relre): **.tar
15:08:32 <ZirconiumX> Lord Aro could do it with AroAI
15:08:38 <Alberth> \*\.tar$
15:09:55 <ZirconiumX> ty
15:12:47 <Alberth> oh, the \* is wrong, unless you want to match the files ending with "*.tar" literally
15:12:55 <Alberth> you need \.tar$
15:14:23 <Ammler> ZirconiumX: maybe you better use glob, as you seem not able to manage regex and then blame hg ;-)
15:14:43 <Alberth> Ammler: good point
15:15:14 <ZirconiumX> lol
15:15:20 <ZirconiumX> I misspelled syntax
15:17:38 <ZirconiumX> hah
15:17:47 <ZirconiumX> ? .hgignore
15:18:19 <Alberth> hg add .hgignore ; hg commit :)
15:19:04 <Alberth> or add \.hgignore in the file as well :)
15:19:13 <Ammler> lol
15:19:50 <Alberth> which has the benefit that everybody can set his own ignored files, instead of having to agree on the set between all developers
15:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the latter has the problem you need to move it to all other checkouts manually ;)
15:20:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a .hgignore.local for that ;)
15:20:18 <Ammler> Alberth: the purpose of the .hgingore is excatly that
15:20:33 <Ammler> you can still have your own rules in your local hgingore
15:20:51 <ZirconiumX> ingore?!?
15:20:53 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: there is
15:21:05 <Alberth> Ammler: oh, it has a section for each user or so?
15:21:05 <ZirconiumX> Sounds like botched surgury
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15:21:46 <Alberth> oh, there are 2 such files :) nice
15:21:47 <Ammler> Alberth: you really aren't aware of possiblity to setup local hgignore?
15:22:05 <Alberth> nope, I don't share my hg repos
15:22:10 <Ammler> :-P
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15:23:07 <ZirconiumX> gah
15:23:14 <ZirconiumX> I've commited
15:23:38 <ZirconiumX> and it doesn't show up
15:23:52 <Ammler> ui.hgignore should tell you more
15:23:55 <Yexo> do hg push
15:24:14 <Yexo> and make sure next time to describe the problem better, like where you expected it to show up
15:24:27 <Ammler> ZirconiumX: hg is like client and server in one, push/pull to sync with other hosts
15:25:27 <ZirconiumX> hurrah
15:25:53 <Ammler> also if you work with others on same repo, it is helpful to pull right before commit again
15:27:26 <Ammler> ZirconiumX: I would not add a rev number to the commit message
15:27:55 <Ammler> not like git, hg has its local numbers, that could confuse
15:28:31 <ZirconiumX> the thing is though
15:29:01 <ZirconiumX> it's easy to search rn
15:29:07 <Ammler> either work with rev number of the main repo (devzone in that case) or use something else
15:29:14 <ZirconiumX> as it looks in the description
15:29:38 <Ammler> hg log does not show you a number?
15:29:51 <Ammler> your commit is btw. rev 0, not 1 :-)
15:30:20 <ZirconiumX> I know - I saw
15:30:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22312 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp:
15:30:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Add GameOptionsWindow::BuildDropDownList() for construction of all dropdown lists in the GameOptionsWindow.
15:30:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: Sort the items in the currency dropdown; separate the "Custom" item with a horizontal line from the rest.
15:30:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: Separate default and NewGRF-supplied townnames with a horizontal line and only sort them within these groups.
15:30:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: Resize all dropdown lists in the GameOptionsWindow, so no text is truncated.
15:30:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22313 /trunk/src/strings_func.h: -Cleanup (r22312): Remove some dead code.
15:30:44 <Ammler> well, up to you, you have been warned :-P
15:31:22 <Ammler> openttd adds svn rev because as they started hg converts, nobody knew hg
15:32:57 <Ammler> (and for openttd, svn is still "master")
15:37:38 <Ammler> frosch123: does this mean, i can trash my swisstowns grf?
15:39:06 <Ruudjah> openttd switched to hg?
15:39:48 <Yexo> no, but there have been hg copies of the svn repo for a very long time:
15:40:36 <Yexo> Ammler: what did swisstowns.grf do?
15:40:40 <Ruudjah> ah, ok
15:40:52 <Ammler> Yexo: mainly fix openttd swisstowns
15:41:13 <Ammler> and extend
15:41:20 <peter1138> git ftw!
15:41:25 <Yexo> r22312 made no changes to the actual town name generators
15:41:59 <Ammler> well, it sounds like after that, my grf wont replace the swiss menu entry anymore
15:42:13 <Yexo> did it ever do that?
15:42:33 <Ammler> of course :-)
15:42:50 <Ammler> if you had same name, that was the whole idea behind
15:43:13 <Ammler> that was the reason, I added the translations to my grf
15:43:39 <Yexo> swiss is no twice in the list
15:43:43 <Ammler> no
15:43:55 <Ammler> well, maybe it will be now, which makes it useless
15:44:08 <Yexo> "swiss" the openttd version), "swiss" (newgrf version) and "swiss (extreme)" (also newgrf version)
15:44:57 <Ammler> Yexo: that was pre r22312 already?
15:45:02 <Yexo> no
15:45:11 <Yexo> that is since r22312
15:45:29 <Yexo> in r22308 (a build I just had handy) there are only 2 "swiss" and "swiss (extreme)"
15:45:38 <Yexo> it's not easy to tell whether that's the openttd version or newgrf version
15:45:41 <Ammler> ah, it should have beend "Swiss" for the fix and "Swiss (extreme)" for the extend
15:46:18 <Ammler> but I merged those with the nml conversion
15:46:58 <Ammler> why should I add the newgrf but then still use the openttd list?
15:47:55 <Yexo> because one newgrf could add multiple town names lists, and you can add multiple town names grfs
15:48:01 <Ammler> you could drop the whole list if town name newgrf is added, imo :-)
15:48:21 <Ammler> (the whole openttd names*)
15:48:53 <Yexo> Ammler: what if someone decides to bundle town names with vehicles? You wouldn't be able to use the vehicles without the town names part
15:48:58 <Yexo> think canset or similar
15:49:29 <Ammler> well, then keep it pre r22313 style
15:49:39 <Ammler> I see no sense to split those, why do you want that?
15:51:36 <Ammler> hopefully you have the newgrf entries at least on top :-)
15:51:47 <Yexo> of course not ;)
15:53:35 <frosch123> [17:41] <Ammler> well, it sounds like after that, my grf wont replace the swiss menu entry anymore <- i don't see how that could have worked before :o
15:53:45 <Yexo> neither do I, but it did work
15:53:53 <Ammler> frosch123: ask glx
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15:55:03 <Ammler> I just checked, the fix was not serious, just added 2 towns and "my" Amden :-)
15:56:26 <Ammler> frosch123: it simply sorted the list and dropped double entries somehow
15:56:58 <Ammler> also it was per language, I had to translate it for every openttd language to drop the openttd entry
15:57:56 <Ammler> but the idea was that you were able to "overrule" openttd town names
15:58:06 <Yexo> ah, the old code used a std::map
15:58:20 <frosch123> well, it must have assigned the same string id somehow
15:58:21 <Yexo> Ammler: was that ever a feature or just a never-fixed bug?
15:58:31 <Ammler> of course, a feature
15:58:35 <Ammler> well, ask glx
15:58:42 <Yexo> frosch123: no, StringIDCompare calls StringIDSorter which does strcmp
15:58:44 <frosch123> Yexo: openttd.cfg stores the name as text
15:58:49 <Yexo> after GetString()
15:59:00 <Yexo> so it actually did compare the actual strings, not the ids
15:59:23 <frosch123> [17:58] <frosch123> Yexo: openttd.cfg stores the name as text <- actually wrong
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15:59:36 <Ammler> I thought I fixed typos and such with my grf too, but that isn't the case, so it is partially false alarm or me ;-)
15:59:46 <Ammler> of*
16:00:02 <Yexo> I still think overriding the default town name generators with a newgrf one is a bug
16:00:09 <glx> openttd.cfg stores the ID using the enum if possible
16:00:12 <frosch123> well, now you can choose between the original swiss towns and the newgrf swiss towns :)
16:00:37 <Ammler> Yexo: you can disable efault vehicle, why shouldn't you be able to replace default town list?
16:00:44 <frosch123> you can also easily tell which are original, and which from newgrf
16:00:53 <frosch123> imo it is more transparent now
16:01:01 <Yexo> because there is no reason to do so? you won't see the default town names in-game if you select the newgrf town names
16:01:01 <Ammler> frosch123: again, why should I add the swiss towns grf and then chose the openttd list?
16:01:13 <Yexo> <Yexo> Ammler: what if someone decides to bundle town names with vehicles? You wouldn't be able to use the vehicles without the town names part
16:01:37 <frosch123> Ammler: then you would remove all original town names when newgrf ones are present
16:01:45 <Ammler> Yexo: that was the answer to my "drop all openttd lists"
16:01:55 <Yexo> besides that the previous way of overriding (by comparing the actual strings) was broken
16:02:09 <Ammler> it worked here
16:02:11 <Yexo> if overriding was possible it should be done on a per-id basis, not by comparing the names
16:02:25 <Yexo> Ammler: only until a new translation was added to openttd
16:02:45 <Ammler> yell, then you have both entries
16:02:49 <Ammler> like now
16:02:56 <Ammler> so nothing is lost :-)
16:03:23 <Yexo> and now it's consistent
16:03:28 <Ammler> well, split is fine, but do at least change the sorting and the newgrfs on top
16:03:50 <Ammler> so the "unsupported" lists are shown as less priorized
16:04:05 <Yexo> I have no objection to that but I'll leave it to frosch123 if he wants to do it
16:04:19 <frosch123> newgrf ones on top makes sense
16:05:37 <Ammler> or you need to accept patched according to town lists ;-)
16:05:44 <Ammler> patches*
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16:06:26 <Yexo> those break old savegames, so unless it are fixes for typos no
16:07:22 <Ammler> :-o
16:08:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22314 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Change: Put NewGRF supplied townnames at the top of the dropdown list.
16:08:39 <frosch123> gah, forgot the comment :s
16:10:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22315 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix (r22314): Update comment as well.
16:10:31 * Ammler wonders, if that needs adding a comment to the menu entry so it is obvious
16:12:35 <Eddi|zuHause> could someone review these refit masks for me? :)
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16:15:34 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: the bits depend on the cargo translation table you use
16:16:51 <frosch123> Yexo: unfortunately eddi overrides the refitmask of vehicles defined in another grf. and they use the translation table of the other grf in that case. and that other grf has no translation table
16:17:06 <frosch123> maybe we should fix that :p
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16:17:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. i need to use the raw cargo bits:
16:17:17 <frosch123> but does not sound easy
16:17:37 <Yexo> ah, ok
16:17:55 <Yexo> fixing that will lead to problems with existing adapter sets
16:18:43 <frosch123> are you sure?
16:19:03 <Yexo> no
16:19:27 <frosch123> you could say something: first try the original translation table, but allow defining an own one
16:19:48 <frosch123> anyway, afaik it only affects the refitmask property
16:20:03 <frosch123> action123 use the translation table from the grf defining the action3 anyway
16:20:05 <Yexo> so (A) CTT of original grf, (B) CTT of overriding grf, (C) cargo bit instead of just (A) and (C)
16:20:56 <frosch123> hmm, i guess current code would even apply the ctt of overriding grf to the original grf's refitmask, if it defines an action3
16:21:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it should do that...
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16:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but these dbxl-addendums can't use an action 3, because it can't access the action 2 chain of the original grf
16:23:03 <Yexo> at that point it's impossible to determine which grf set the refitmask
16:26:22 <frosch123> maybe we could just add a refitmask_grfid to GRFTempEngineData
16:32:38 <LordAro> in 'struct name : public Window' what does the ': public Window' mean? or at least, what should i search for?
16:32:59 <Yexo> inheritance
16:33:15 <Yexo> it means "name" is a subclass of "Window"
16:33:55 <LordAro> ty
16:34:30 <LordAro> on a completely unrelated note, what does the Stop() function in NoAI do? and when is it called, etc?
16:35:13 <Yexo> nothing and never
16:35:24 <LordAro> so why is it required?
16:35:51 <Yexo> it's not
16:36:04 <LordAro> thought it was :)
16:36:19 <Yexo> a few years ago it was
16:36:27 <Yexo> but that was changed even before the merge to trunk
16:37:32 <LordAro> so why does it still exist? or is it just being 'defined' by developer, not the API?
16:37:43 <Yexo> who days it still exists?
16:38:00 <Yexo> there is no trace of it in the openttd code
16:38:04 <Yexo> at least none that I can find
16:38:29 <LordAro> :) - i shall remove it, yes?
16:39:15 <Yexo> sure
16:40:41 <LordAro> done :)
16:40:54 <LordAro> out of interest, what was it for?
16:41:12 <Yexo> to make an AI stop running of course
16:41:28 <Yexo> openttd did not stop AIs automatically at that time
16:41:37 <Yexo> it just called Stop() and the AI had to make sure it would stop
16:41:59 <LordAro> by a divide by 0 or something?
16:42:10 <Yexo> no, by setting a flag they would check in their mainloop
16:42:22 <LordAro> i see
16:42:31 <LordAro> thanks for the info :)
16:42:56 * LordAro makes a note to delete Stop() from AroAI
16:44:25 <frosch123> <- Eddi|zuHause: interested in testing that?
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16:48:59 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: what would i look for when testing?
16:51:17 <frosch123> whether you can use a cargo translation table
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16:52:46 <Eddi|zuHause> for reference: the cargos with my modifications above, without out this patch:,%206th%20Dec%201935.png
16:53:53 <Yexo> why alcohol/milk also in the goods van?
16:54:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: because MB insists on milk being transported in cans. and the goods van has a "beer" refit
16:54:51 <Yexo> ok
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16:57:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: which version of FIRS did you test?
16:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something a few weeks ago
16:58:37 <andythenorth> I changed junk yard production on 19th March to reduce it.
16:58:47 <andythenorth> could reduce it further, just wondering which version you had...
16:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause> date: Sun Mar 27 18:52:47 2011 +0100
16:59:31 <andythenorth> ok you have the newer
16:59:36 <andythenorth> which means I might reduce it further
16:59:43 <andythenorth> I have the same conclusion as you
17:00:35 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm surprised you were short of farms.
17:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you really only need a few tons per month, to boost metal production
17:00:43 <andythenorth> I don't tune for 'low industry'
17:00:55 <andythenorth> but on 'normal' there are usually plenty of farms
17:01:06 <andythenorth> maybe the clustering effect doesn't scale well with 'low'
17:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not really "short", i.e. there were some, but the ratio doesn't seem right
17:01:31 <andythenorth> 'low' or 'very low'?
17:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> low
17:01:37 <andythenorth> I'm not really going to do anything about 'very low'
17:01:49 <andythenorth> do you remember the terrain type?
17:01:54 <andythenorth> not that it affects farms much...
17:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it says "mountaneous", but with the height level patch, it's fairly flat terrain
17:03:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: on 'low' the clustering is hugely ineffective for farms
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17:03:40 <andythenorth> it works to some extent, but not in every case
17:03:47 <andythenorth> and only produces clusters of 2-3 farms together
17:03:50 <andythenorth> :(
17:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> what's also a little bit disturbing me is that the secondary industries are in the middle of nowhere, they should cluster around larger towns (>2000 inhabitants, with some chance of outside)
17:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but that might not fit everybody's playing style
17:05:33 <andythenorth> too co-ercive
17:05:43 <andythenorth> if it bothers you, patch FIRS, or set up a scenario ;)
17:05:46 <andythenorth> or patch ottd
17:06:15 <andythenorth> ;)
17:06:31 <andythenorth> on 'normal industry' farms cluster in groups of 2-7, which is better
17:07:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ideas for second building materials industry?
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17:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not sure about that...
17:09:05 <andythenorth> me neither ;)
17:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: with patch applied:,%206th%20Dec%201935_1.png
17:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: with MAIL and MNSP swapped in CTT:,%206th%20Dec%201935_1.png
17:16:02 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: with MAIL and MNSP swapped in CTT:,%206th%20Dec%201935_2.png
17:17:01 <andythenorth> what are we patching?
17:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: CTT support for "i modify other GRF"-GRFs
17:17:52 <andythenorth> interestink
17:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: addon GRFs like dbxl_firs
17:18:11 <andythenorth> the discussion about cargo refittability cb was useful....
17:18:36 <andythenorth> I don't think the questions were answered though :o
17:18:36 <andythenorth>
17:19:09 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: so, it works?
17:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> on first glance, seems to do
17:20:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the unmodified mail van still carries mail
17:21:01 <frosch123> ok, thanks
17:21:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22316 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] When determining refittability use the cargo translation table of the GRF setting the refitmask instead of the GRF defining the action 3.
17:22:22 <andythenorth> how cunning
17:22:38 <andythenorth> so old grfs could be patched for cargo support?
17:22:56 <andythenorth> in a better way than previously...
17:23:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: slightly better: doesn't have to rely on raw cargo bits anymore, but still can't affect graphics
17:23:53 <andythenorth> graphics are overkill anyway
17:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (or must include complete graphics)
17:24:53 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i think FIRS has no "Goods" that would fit into a tanker wagon
17:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i should remove it
17:25:34 <andythenorth> up to you ;)
17:25:42 <andythenorth> I concur though
17:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the original DBSet has goods, because it may come from refinery
17:26:50 <andythenorth> sometimes I wish grfcodec would read my psds directly :P
17:27:48 <andythenorth> anyone want some easy Sunday nfo fun?
17:28:21 <andythenorth> I want to locate petrol station next to any road tile
17:28:30 <andythenorth> I have most of cb28 hooked up
17:28:47 <andythenorth> there are two layouts, 1x2 and 2x1
17:29:06 <andythenorth> I might need cb22 instead, haven't figured it out yet
17:29:30 <andythenorth> if it's north tile only, I think cb28 will do
17:29:43 <andythenorth> but I am happy if any tile is adjacent to a full road piece
17:29:57 * andythenorth thinks cb22 in that case
17:30:20 <andythenorth> cb2f /s
17:31:20 * andythenorth is puzzled by this one
17:31:36 <andythenorth> I need to allow construction if *any* tile is adjacent to road
17:31:43 <andythenorth> but I need to run the check for every tile
17:31:48 <andythenorth> not sure how to disallow :o
17:31:55 <andythenorth> I can't use registers at this point
17:31:56 <frosch123> there is only a check for the north tile
17:31:59 <frosch123> iirc
17:32:13 <andythenorth>
17:32:15 <andythenorth> should do it
17:32:18 <andythenorth> I use it in other place
17:32:20 <andythenorth> s
17:33:05 <frosch123> oh sorry, somehow i thought the discussion was abuot houses :o
17:33:22 <frosch123> do you also have a house set in progress? :p
17:34:44 <andythenorth> not me
17:34:50 <andythenorth> I have avoided that :D
17:35:11 <andythenorth> so I need to allow construction if any tile is adjacent to road
17:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> haha, there's a feature in swedish houses that displays a christmas tree on the small square in december :p
17:36:16 <Ruudjah> ^^ this stuff made me a TTD addict
17:36:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: you could also define it to be built on top of houses
17:36:34 <andythenorth> true
17:36:37 <frosch123> like the default banks
17:36:43 <andythenorth> that's how it's currently done
17:36:45 <frosch123> usualy houses are next to roads :)
17:36:47 <andythenorth> I want to allow it out of town
17:36:55 <frosch123> oh
17:37:00 <andythenorth> I like the idea of petrol stations and hotels in the middle of the desert ;)
17:37:56 <andythenorth> hmm
17:38:02 <andythenorth> no registers at this point :(
17:38:21 <planetmaker> good evening
17:38:26 <andythenorth> hello planetmaker
17:39:09 <andythenorth> hmm
17:39:25 <andythenorth> I do have the layout number, so I could do checks in specific directions from the N tile
17:39:26 <andythenorth> that will work
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17:45:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22317 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by Yexo
17:45:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
17:45:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:45:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
17:45:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by Rubidium
17:49:17 <Zuu> I tried a game with OpenGFX+ for the first time. Must say it is really well made. Not too complicated but still provides nice extra graphics etc.
17:50:33 <Zuu> It could maybe have a second generation of wagons halfway between 1950 and monorail for some added fun, but I guess the policy is to not add any extra wagons/engines, only refits, graphics etc.
17:52:37 <Ruudjah> what (OSS) IDE's are good picks to develop OpenTTD on?
17:52:58 <Ruudjah> (C++)
17:55:13 <Ruudjah> previously I used MSVS, but won't use that any more
17:56:11 <planetmaker> Zuu: agreed on 2nd generation of wagons being nice
17:56:47 <planetmaker> it's not so much about policy (they could have very similar properties, or just slightly larger or so), but... about just not yet drawn nor implemented
17:57:23 <Zuu> I guess the second generation should only be slightly better or it would skew the balance (as if there was one ;-) )
17:57:30 <planetmaker> yep
17:57:52 <Alberth> Ruudjah: there is no universal agreement on such things. Just use one that you like.
17:58:09 * glx likes visual studio
17:58:22 * Alberth likes gvim + a terminal
17:58:43 <Zuu> VS is good but not OSS (which is what Ruudjah asked for)
17:58:58 <Terkhen> Ruudjah: if you are using windows you can only use visual studio or an IDE that uses mingw/msys such as code blocks or qt creator
17:59:20 <Terkhen> I used notepad++ and a msys terminal
17:59:24 <Zuu> Or you get virtual box and a virtual linux machine :-)
17:59:38 <glx> I use notepad++ too
17:59:44 <Alberth> Ruudjah: you definitely want an editor that shows the difference between TAB and SPACE, and shows trailing whitespace
18:00:01 <Ammler> Zuu: then you do rather the opposite
18:00:32 <Ammler> else you are the whole time on the vm ;-)
18:00:39 <Zuu> :-p
18:01:25 <Ruudjah> few months back removed as much proprietary software as possible, switched to ubuntu
18:01:48 <Ruudjah> Have virtualbox+w7+MSVS available, but want to eliminate need for it
18:02:03 <planetmaker> kate works for me
18:02:10 <Terkhen> on linux I use gedit + terminal :)
18:02:27 <frosch123> an "ide" can be very different things
18:02:30 <Ruudjah> for me personally, it's absolutely a must to have an IDE as opposed to an editor
18:02:33 * andythenorth just fights xcode a lot
18:02:38 <andythenorth> but that's no use to the rest of you
18:02:42 <frosch123> some prefer lightweight stuff, some prefer monsters like eclipse
18:02:46 <andythenorth> brrr
18:02:54 <andythenorth> hmm
18:03:00 <Ruudjah> I have experience with Eclipse, now looking into CDT
18:03:03 * frosch123 uses geany (also a lightweight one)
18:03:05 <Ruudjah> (C++ for eclpse)
18:03:10 <Ammler> Ruudjah: a linux console is part of an IDE :-)
18:03:20 <andythenorth> we discussed a way to get count of industry type per town. frosch123 do you remember any conclusion of that?
18:03:36 <Alberth> Ammler: a linux desktop is an ide :)
18:03:42 <Ammler> or so :-)
18:03:48 <Ruudjah> eclipse==monster?
18:03:49 <frosch123> no
18:03:55 <Terkhen> I'll make a note of checking geany, I'm interested on alternatives to gedit :)
18:04:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: me neither
18:04:04 <Ruudjah> I of intergrated is important for me
18:04:06 <frosch123> Ruudjah: "monster" as in "huge"
18:04:23 <Alberth> it has crappy editors imo
18:04:41 <frosch123> "huge" as in "most of its users only know about 10% or so"
18:04:55 <Ammler> Ruudjah: what exactly do you need from IDE?
18:04:55 <Alberth> frosch123: and I am trying to keep it that way :p
18:04:57 <Ammler> debugger?
18:05:12 <Alberth> auto completion hints
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18:05:39 <frosch123> [20:04] <Alberth> frosch123: and I am trying to keep it that way :p <- what's the context of that line?
18:05:41 <Ruudjah> 1. intellisense, 2. live debugging, 3. quick navigation through code
18:05:53 <Ruudjah> ^^autocomplete
18:05:59 <Ammler> there is another java ide than exclipse, abit "lighter"
18:06:00 <Alberth> (20:07:36) frosch123: "huge" as in "most of its users only know about 10% or so" <-- that line :)
18:06:22 <Ammler> netbeans
18:06:28 <Ruudjah> for java, eclipse fits quite well
18:06:28 <frosch123> Ruudjah: yes, a lot of "ide"s have those standard functions
18:06:49 <frosch123> but some need 3 minutes to scan the code, and some need 10 seconds
18:06:50 <Alberth> and 3 is not so important, C++ is not Java
18:07:03 <Ruudjah> uh
18:07:27 <Alberth> you normally edit 2 or 3 files at most
18:07:47 <frosch123> Alberth: but you look up stuff in 20 files
18:07:51 <Ruudjah> ah yes, I remember ottd devs try to cram as much code into one file as possible
18:08:01 <Alberth> frosch123: grep :)
18:08:17 <Alberth> Ruudjah: there is structure :)
18:08:57 <Ruudjah> true, but most (all?)projects I dev/devved for do other way around
18:09:07 <Zuu> But *too* many files in the same directory make them take up the whole screen when you <tab> to open in vim. :-)
18:09:38 <Ruudjah> Ill give netbeans a try, does it have c++ support out of the box?
18:10:02 <Ammler> I just said "there is", I don't use it :-)
18:10:13 <frosch123> Alberth: i have no real opinion on that vim stuff. everyone who i have been seen using it, had obviously no idea about it, completely misconfigured it, resulting in it being only crap
18:10:28 <Ruudjah> Ammler: I asked 'good picks' :P
18:10:36 <frosch123> same for emacs/xemacs users
18:10:57 <frosch123> i just do not know anyone who uses it effectively :)
18:11:12 <Alberth> frosch123: that's the challenge :)
18:11:56 <Alberth> Ruudjah: true, but most (all?)projects I dev/devved for do other way around <-- perhaps because OpenTTD is already quite old?
18:11:58 <Ruudjah> I take IDE quite literally, becoming stressed when functions are not yet in there (plugins etc, insane default settings)
18:12:20 <Zuu> That's why I never recommend anyone to use vim as most people are not motivated to learn enough to make good use of it.
18:12:27 <Ruudjah> I of integrated completely literally
18:12:51 <frosch123> Ruudjah: so you prefer an "ide" which has as many functions as possible
18:12:53 <Ruudjah> e.g. a button "download openttd code, compile it, and run it"
18:13:11 <Ruudjah> not necessarily
18:13:22 <Ruudjah> the functions in there being integrated
18:15:15 <Ruudjah> I want to learn a lot, but mostly stuff I _need_ to learn, e.g. VCS integration being a necessary evil which should just work and not make me think. I want to think about ottd code, not how I do things to make it happen
18:16:35 <frosch123> one important property of an ide for me is also that it must not use project files or simliar
18:16:46 <yorick> heh, ides :)
18:16:47 * planetmaker found that a big IDE doesn't really help to get things done ;-)
18:17:16 <Alberth> but customizing the things around editing code gives opportunities for easier/faster development, which pay off much more than being able to type a little faster
18:17:19 <yorick> command line, emacs/nano/vim or even gedit and that's it
18:18:05 <Ammler> a big IDE might be good, if you have time to learn to use it
18:18:06 <Ruudjah> sane defaults+neat integration does not mean you can't have customization (MSVS&Eclipse being proof of that for me)
18:18:33 <Zuu> The biggest benefit in using MSVC over vim I find is debugging and code navigation in large projects.
18:18:43 <planetmaker> what frosch123 mentions is an important point: I've seen projects which use these - and then they're a constant cause of annoyance as they're not updated coherently for all project types / ides
18:19:09 <Ruudjah> "it must not use project files or simliar" --> ??
18:19:28 <Terkhen> my problem with IDEs is that they usually add stuff to my project which it does not need and that when they fail (which at least for me happened quite frequently) I need to learn how to do the stuff they do for me anyways
18:19:43 <frosch123> Ruudjah: the build uses makefiles
18:20:13 <frosch123> any more files listing the files in the project is just crap. the ide should display everything is a the directory
18:20:17 <frosch123> and subdirectories
18:20:31 <planetmaker> (yes, msvc requires them seemingly)
18:20:41 <frosch123> well, msvc has no makefiles
18:20:41 <Alberth> and you may have several copies of the sources at your disk, moving things around between directories
18:20:47 <Ammler> butbut, why do you have source.list then?
18:21:13 <frosch123> Ammler: it is allowed to list the stuff in _one_ file
18:21:14 <Alberth> source.list is not part of the IDE
18:21:36 <Ruudjah> so - what IDE might be good for me?
18:22:37 <frosch123> the one which you are most comfortable with
18:22:45 <Ammler> start with something and be open for others :-)
18:22:51 <Ruudjah> right
18:22:52 <frosch123> i refuse the idea that there is a "best idea for everyone"
18:23:02 <frosch123> -a
18:23:17 <Ruudjah> "best ide for project X"?
18:23:23 <frosch123> neither that
18:23:39 <Ammler> maybe there isn't even best IDE for you
18:23:42 <Zuu> Personal preference also matters.
18:23:46 <frosch123> if a project relies on a specific ide (as in relying on the project files for that), i consider it already crap :p
18:24:49 <Ruudjah> But I can imagine there exist IDE's which fit C++/OpenTTD's project state more then others?
18:25:39 <Yexo> why would there be any such IDE?
18:26:20 <Alberth> Ruudjah: a good strategy in OSS is to pick one program and use it. You will find bad spots while you use it. If they start to irritate, find another program for replacement, and ditch the previous one. Repeat forever
18:26:49 <Terkhen> ^
18:27:01 <Ammler> oh poor man, next thing you have to chose is one of the scm, since the silly openttd offers 3 different types :-P
18:27:09 <Ammler> 4 (source bundles)
18:27:18 <Ruudjah> because specialization tends to produce better software, just like OpenTTD does. It specializes on one specific part and does that really good. So IDE's focusing on all languages might support most languages OK, but IDe focused on one lang might support that lang very well
18:27:46 <Ruudjah> to name an example (language part of an IDE)
18:28:05 <Alberth> but they also want to be generic and multi-language (all used languages in one project)
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18:28:47 <Alberth> isn't there a KDE development ide too? kdevelop or so?
18:29:05 * Alberth bets there is a gnome one too
18:29:59 <Ammler> kdevelop is nice too
18:30:09 <Ammler> as you have the Konsole integrated :-)
18:30:38 <Ruudjah> Side question - why do you guys use a console in an IDE? I never did that?
18:31:21 <Alberth> grep , make, sort stuff, run sed, etc
18:31:30 <Terkhen> because you can do all kind of crazy magic with a console
18:31:46 <Ammler> you don't need to remember commands
18:31:49 <Alberth> hg commands
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18:33:32 <Alberth> Ruudjah: 'grep -r <some-phrase> src' gives you one line of context for every occurrence of <some-phrase> at one screen, your ide is never that fast/good
18:33:48 <Ruudjah> ^^that stuff I expect my IDE to provide
18:33:56 <Ruudjah> If not, failure
18:34:08 <Alberth> then dump all IDEs :)
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18:34:23 <Ruudjah> There's a reason I'm asking the question here ;)
18:35:10 <Alberth> the only problem is that it takes time to learn console, your editor, etc
18:35:24 <Terkhen> the only IDE I use is Qt Creator, but only because it is quite good for Qt stuff and it is very light
18:36:16 <Terkhen> but it does not support configure based projects (IIRC it imports makefiles), so you would probably run into problems using it for OpenTTD
18:36:18 <Alberth> you want the perfect environment out of the box. I am constantly tuning my setup, always improving in little steps.
18:37:43 <fonsinchen> I use my IDE primarily for quick navigation to definitions of classes and functions. This is very handy and I haven't found a way to do it that conveniently with a more lightweight editor.
18:38:03 * Alberth uses doxygen generated html docs for that
18:38:34 <fonsinchen> That works for looking up things, but not for changing things.
18:38:40 <Alberth> true
18:38:56 <frosch123> fonsinchen: that function is also present in a lot of lightweight stuff
18:39:04 <fonsinchen> Also it doesn't take place inside the editor. You have to switch to a web browser.
18:39:15 <frosch123> and yes, that function is very important :)
18:39:17 <fonsinchen> Is it? I didn't manage to get it to work in vim.
18:39:22 * Alberth has 6 desktops, switching is 1 key-press
18:39:32 <frosch123> vim can use ctags
18:39:47 <Ruudjah> Lately, I needed to generate doxygen for a project...
18:40:28 <Ruudjah> Having never used Eclipse, I clicked around a bit, and noted generate docs, it presented me with a wizard, and off I went
18:41:23 <Ruudjah> as an example of how I like my cake ;)
18:42:03 <Alberth> I have a script that pulls the latest updates, rebuilds the binary, and regenerates the docs
18:42:44 <Terkhen> quick navigation is the only thing I miss, yes
18:43:37 <Ruudjah> Alberth: you wrote that script manually, or generated it using an ide?
18:44:08 <Alberth> I wrote it myself, 3 years ago
18:44:09 <Terkhen> it is probably faster to code it yourself than to generate it somehow
18:44:18 <Alberth> it is about 10 lines
18:45:13 <Alberth> Ruudjah: an IDE is always limited, it knows X things you can switch on/off. I tend to want at least X+1 things
18:45:32 <Alberth> hence I don't like IDEs, as they limit how I can organize my work
18:46:33 <Alberth> or I need to know a zillion things about how to extend the IDE, which I have no interest in to know
18:50:31 <Ruudjah> from what I conclude about all these responses, IDE's need a very long way to go
18:51:05 <Zuu> Even if I often use an IDE (msvc or delphi), I pull up vim from time to time to perform actions that is simply much easier in vim than in a the text editors of those IDEs.
18:52:07 <Zuu> Somtimes grep is the right tool as well.. Using an IDE does not forbid you to dig up other tools when they are better.
18:52:19 <Ruudjah> specialization
18:52:23 <Alberth> Ruudjah: IDEs provide an easy way to get going. It makes many common things easy. But at some point you will hit limitations
18:53:03 <Alberth> When they start to irritate, find new program(s), and ditch the previous one :)
18:53:36 <Ruudjah> One (of many) reason to use OSS ide, is being able to extend them
18:54:19 <Alberth> sure, but then you are doing dev-work in the ide project
18:54:43 <Ruudjah> sometimes this overlaps with the project
18:54:44 <Zuu> comersial IDEs usually allow for extension if you have a paid license. The problem usally arise when you use the free version of the comersial IDEs.
18:55:04 <Ruudjah> OSS
18:56:20 <Eddi|zuHause> <-- that's what my refit masks look like now
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19:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the majority of FIRS cargos seem to be transported in open wagons, so they need special graphics :(
19:01:48 <andythenorth> vans
19:02:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: tarpaulins cover all sins
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19:02:16 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: cover the bulk wagons
19:02:27 <theserpent> !password
19:02:27 *** theserpent was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
19:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... whe didn't have that one in a while! :p
19:03:09 <Alberth> good that someone tested it again :)
19:04:50 <Ruudjah> tnx all
19:05:00 <Alberth> yw :)
19:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> there's actually no reason to disable the container wagon, but i don't want to think about what could go in there...
19:06:05 <andythenorth> everything
19:06:48 <Alberth> how does that compare with 'anything'?
19:07:07 <Alberth> (just wondering about the difference in meaning between the words)
19:07:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the possibility of mixture
19:07:23 <Chris_Booth> lol I like that kick
19:07:35 <Chris_Booth> I may use it when I leave from now XD
19:07:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "anything" is "one of many", "everything" is "many of many"
19:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: that'll likely lead to a ban.
19:08:22 <Alberth> besides, /quit is faster/shorter to type :)
19:08:41 <Chris_Booth> it is
19:08:58 <Chris_Booth> or /kickme
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19:10:38 * Alberth is very tempted to perform that request :p
19:11:20 <Eddi|zuHause> TB would have done it by now :p
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19:12:16 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: the better thing is "@ kbanme"
19:20:07 <dihedral> @logs
19:20:07 <DorpsGek> dihedral:
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19:41:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I tried moving the pumps further in earlier today
19:42:13 <andythenorth> it creates a weird optical illusion - that the canopy is not very high
19:42:37 <andythenorth> it looks like it is lower in height than it should be
19:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> hm...
19:42:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, they usually are very high
19:42:54 <andythenorth> the only solution is to show the legs - which means they are further out than in RL
19:43:03 <andythenorth> I tried for about an hour ;)
19:43:16 * Alberth likes the flower beds
19:43:26 <andythenorth> the ones I removed?
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19:44:53 <Alberth> LordAro:
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19:46:56 <Alberth> andythenorth: no, the ones before. I didn't know you have new ones (number 2 and 3)
19:47:57 <supermop> good afternoon
19:48:56 <Alberth> supermop: but I quite close to going to sleep
19:50:25 <Alberth> andythenorth: number 2 has too much empty space, but perhaps because I have seen the previous one (that I like). Number 3 does not have that problem, as the empty space 'belongs' to the shop for me.
19:56:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: I can't be bothered to rotate the shop for the layout ;)
19:57:14 <Alberth> no need, this is better imho, it gives more diversity
19:57:58 <Alberth> ie, to a player, it would be a rotated version of the same station
20:00:54 <Alberth> (if you rotated the shop too)
20:04:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause:
20:04:35 <andythenorth> looks...ok
20:07:24 <andythenorth> I'm putting back some flowerbed
20:13:37 <Eddi|zuHause> looks great!
20:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the pumps and the shop could be closer together... usually you don't want to get wet while going to pay...
20:15:28 <supermop> use the card reader on the pump?
20:15:41 <supermop> thats what i do
20:15:43 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: no such thing in europe.
20:16:01 <supermop> i only go inside when i want to buy a snack on long road trips
20:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the stations survive by people using their shop, it would hurt their business if the people wouldn't have to walk 5m into the shop
20:16:32 <supermop> in the us you have to put in your card before the pump will turn on
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20:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't actually make any money on fuel.
20:17:03 <supermop> indeed not,
20:17:10 <supermop> except in certain areas
20:17:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or if they do, like half a cent per liter
20:17:58 <supermop> in nyc all of the money comes from the gas, as many stations in the city do not even have shops
20:18:45 <supermop> but outside of ny, shop revenue is more impoortant
20:18:48 <Nite> Hi
20:18:54 <Alberth> andythenorth: doesn't it need a big display of the oil company, and the cheap prices of the fuel ?
20:19:20 <Nite> does the "find server" button refresh the whole server list?
20:19:22 <supermop> a sign with the ottd logo would be cool
20:20:15 <planetmaker> ottd = oil, tools and toys distributions Inc. ?
20:20:26 <planetmaker> :-P
20:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and what's the "TTDP" on the farm stations?
20:22:12 <planetmaker> Toys & Tools for your Dear Pets Corp.
20:22:13 <Nite> its a Transport Tycoon Deluxe Pharm ... what else ;)
20:22:16 <andythenorth> I tried a price sign, but it looks odd :P
20:23:03 <Alberth> s/toys/tires/
20:23:16 <planetmaker> :-)
20:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause> mäh... i wanted to patch something, but i forgot what...
20:25:01 <planetmaker> I'll try to patch my attention span... good night :-)
20:25:06 <andythenorth> bye
20:25:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: patch towns
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20:33:33 <Nite> any idea how to get the russians to upload their pretty rtts (russiantrainsandtrams) on bananas (?)
20:33:48 <Terkhen> ask them?
20:34:18 <Nite> but how where? (i dont speak russian)
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20:36:43 <Terkhen> I don't know, sorry... but they must know about bananas already; they probably don't upload their newgrf by choice
20:37:00 <Nite> could be
20:37:32 <Nite> its really a cool and complete set ...
20:41:34 <Nite> its also not on grfcrawler
20:41:45 <Nite> is grfcrawler still updated?
20:42:32 <andythenorth> not by me :P
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20:43:59 * andythenorth has a plan to extend bananas to bring back some of what grf-crawler did
20:44:50 <Nite> bananas is doing a lot
20:46:13 <Nite> afk
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20:49:55 <frosch123> night
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20:55:07 <Terkhen> good night
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21:18:29 <drumspirit> hi guys
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21:31:06 <Wolf01> 'night
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21:33:02 <__ln__> what are these?
21:33:23 <__ln__> counties or not? something else?
21:36:34 <guru3> urgh not counties
21:36:37 <guru3> way too many of 'em
21:36:45 <guru3> and they get denser with population
21:39:19 * Zuu sees a ArcMap map
21:39:52 <Zuu> Though it could possible be MapInfo as well. But I recognize the color scale as being one of the defaults in ArcMap.
21:40:16 <guru3> i almost want to say it has something to do with post code
21:40:54 <Zuu> Could be units used for statistics.
21:41:08 <__ln__> looks similar:
21:41:11 <Zuu> They are usually more dense in cities and less dense in the countryside.
21:41:29 <guru3> local authority eh
21:41:40 <guru3> yes i think they're the same
21:42:36 <supermop> no one wants to migrate to the North east it looks like
21:42:38 <Zuu> Though these areas are quite large compared to the statistical areas I work with at work. Making a orgin-destination table of a city using those zones is not a very good idea. :-)
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21:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> err... how can i give money between companies if i only have one client?
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22:00:19 <Ammler> you don't
22:00:38 <Ammler> but it is easy to join with a 2nd client
22:00:48 <Ammler> so not a real abuse protection
22:01:03 <Ammler> if it was meant as
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