IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-09
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00:02:13 <supermop> hello
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00:31:35 <Wolf01> 'night
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01:19:59 <__ln__> good morning
01:20:33 <supermop> hello
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03:53:24 <supermop> any sprite artists around want to look at a wip?
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04:05:33 <jcapinc> Factory prducing goods has truck stations and a train stations, truck station has > 700 train station has < 100 at all times. any way to change the distrobution here? I would like to move a lot of cargo with the trains
04:08:19 <jcapinc> anybody on?
04:18:28 <Lachie> supermop: show?
04:27:43 <supermop> ?
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05:58:47 <dihedral> good morning
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06:50:23 <dihedral> Rubidium, the admin port is not opened if the password is not set at the time of starting the dedicated server
06:50:50 <dihedral> iirc the desired effect was to not accept connections if no password was set - or am i confusing something?
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08:49:35 <flitz> good morning
08:50:12 <flitz> what is the quickest way to find out which engine_id is assigned to each vehicle type in a current game ?
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08:54:21 <andythenorth> flitz: I'll check...
08:54:49 <avdg> hmm, is there really support for the android?
08:55:44 <avdg>
08:55:59 <andythenorth> flitz: I don't know if there even is a way...
08:56:14 <flitz> :) thanks anyways
08:56:22 <andythenorth> I thought newgrf debug might report it
08:56:49 <andythenorth> flitz: is it newgrf or default vehicles?
08:57:05 <flitz> newgrf
08:57:36 * avdg revert the changes on the wiki
08:57:46 <andythenorth> flitz decompile it, have a look
08:58:14 <Terkhen> good morning
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08:59:37 <flitz> I didn't even know whether the engine_id is set in a newgrf or assigned when the game loads
09:00:05 <andythenorth> newgrf ID is in newgrf
09:00:21 <andythenorth> I don't know if they are remapped in any way by ottd though
09:03:21 <flitz> I will see, because I know a couple of numbers already
09:03:46 <flitz> just don't want to test-buy and print evertime I find a new one
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09:16:11 <DoubleYou> <avdg> hmm, is there really support for the android? <- I wonder if android phones have enough memory and power to play it, and the interface would be very difficult i suppose too
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09:16:54 <avdg> DoubleYou: I reverted the change to be sure, but donno, I already thought that it would be bogus
09:19:39 <Alberth> it seems more a case of 'see, it is technically possible', rather than an enjoyable experience.
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09:20:50 <DoubleYou> Alberth: would be a challenge to make it actually work and enjoyable
09:21:22 <avdg> hmm, more bogus edits :/
09:22:25 <Alberth> DoubleYou: I don't consider that really feasible, many windows are already too large for such a screen
09:22:51 <avdg> <- still needs some rewording, but reverted the changes of someone
09:22:51 <Alberth> at best you get a very crippled game compared to normal OpenTTD
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09:25:05 <Alberth> avdg: free download sites should not be at the wiki
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09:25:10 <Wolf01> hello
09:25:22 <Alberth> hello Wolf01
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09:25:47 <avdg> k, but it was wrong if these files weren't put on the requirements at all
09:25:52 * avdg removes links
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09:29:52 <Alberth> a reference to OpenGFX seems useful too
09:29:56 <avdg> <- betterN
09:29:57 <avdg> ?
09:30:03 <avdg> just added these
09:30:48 <avdg> I'm not a good english writer though
09:30:53 <guru3> i never got it working with svga lib under linux
09:30:54 <Alberth> yeah, just read it :)
09:31:23 <guru3> also, not sure about those os x requirements
09:31:42 <FauxFaux> Yeah so my new monitor turned up, and the first widescreen game I could think of was openttd. /o\
09:31:44 <guru3> i'm pretty sure it doesn't run happily on my g4 because of the graphics card and how the accelerated drivers happen
09:31:57 <Alberth> I would remove the warning and explain that you can either use the free Open* files, or the original TTDX files
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09:32:59 <guru3> i'd say you need at least a 500 mhz g4 with at least a radeon 9200 or nvidia 4 series card
09:33:15 <andythenorth> Terkhen: hi hi
09:33:23 <guru3> which generally goes hand in hand with 10.3, but not always
09:33:32 <avdg> just mix a few sentences :p
09:33:39 <Alberth> guru3: I would not even consider using svgalib
09:33:48 <Alberth> much too dangerous
09:33:59 <guru3> i tried it once on some aged hardware
09:34:09 <guru3> you can get it working with 32mb of ram though
09:34:16 <guru3> at least you could maybe a year or two ago
09:34:24 <guru3> (linux ofc)
09:35:03 <guru3> and does it really require directx on windows? surely it just uses the sdl.dlls?
09:35:29 <avdg> better now?
09:35:33 <__ln__> and what does sdl use then if not directx?
09:35:46 <guru3> hmm well got a point there
09:36:04 <avdg> __ln__: then it should use opengl, if sdl has support for it
09:36:27 <guru3> also a point
09:37:06 <__ln__> i'm not aware of SDL being able to draw its stuff on OpenGL.
09:37:06 <guru3> i think i'd also say at this point 233 mhz mmx p1 as the minimum for the cpu
09:37:25 <guru3> sdl + opengl does work for 3d
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09:37:32 <__ln__> openttd is not 3d
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09:37:40 <guru3> yes i know, but i was giving an example
09:37:59 <Alberth> avdg: better indeed. thanks
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09:38:14 <guru3> but maybe sdl uses gdi under windows for 2d?
09:38:32 <Eddi|zuHause> reading the documentation to your GRF
09:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> bäh
09:38:41 <Eddi|zuHause> ignore me
09:38:47 <guru3> (so says wikipedia)
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09:41:54 <__ln__> sounds slow
09:42:11 <andythenorth> Terkhen: thought any more of rv-wagons?
09:42:21 <andythenorth> wondering what I should do for HEQS 2...
09:42:42 <guru3> ive seen pretty good 2d performance from gdi before... i seem to remember that basiliskII uses it
09:43:02 <Alberth> andythenorth: finish HEQS 1 ?
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09:43:13 <andythenorth> Alberth: what else could 1.0 mean? :P
09:43:35 <Alberth> :)
09:43:53 <andythenorth> there are two options
09:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> guru3: afaik the game needs directx only for midi output, everything else is GDI [sdl is not used on windows by default]
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09:44:17 <andythenorth> (1) try and make the best possible articulated vehicles in current spec, using multiple refits for capacity etc
09:44:37 <andythenorth> (2) wait for rv-wagons and avoid lots of complications
09:44:40 <Terkhen> andythenorth: sorry, I have been quite busy lately
09:45:06 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I understand :) I'm not saying 'hurry up', just wondering if it's a viable project...
09:45:16 <andythenorth> can it be broken into small enough pieces?
09:45:19 <guru3> Eddi|zuHause: interesting about the midi, never knew that
09:45:29 <Terkhen> I think it is viable, just a quite long one :)
09:45:37 <andythenorth> so is a decent newgrf
09:45:44 <andythenorth> I started HEQS in 2008...
09:46:27 <Terkhen> the problem is that the first piece is still quite big... adapting road vehicle code and GUI to use wagons
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09:46:37 <andythenorth> could we ignore the GUI for now?
09:46:48 <andythenorth> and just convert current arv instructions to use wagons properly
09:47:01 <andythenorth> so GUI and newgrf interface are initially unchanged...
09:47:05 <Terkhen> my plan was to unify as much code as possible before touching the GUI at all, yes
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09:48:06 <Terkhen> right now IIRC there is a dummy "wagon" flag for road vehicles, after unifying vehicle state with trains
09:48:43 <andythenorth> I am correct in understanding that current a-rv implementation is not same as proper arbitrary consists of engines + wagons?
09:49:12 <andythenorth> or is that a misunderstanding?
09:52:20 <Terkhen> I have not checked the code thoroughly enough to know for sure... but the code of road vehicles and trains is quite similar already
09:53:06 <Terkhen> I don't think that it would work right now... there must be some problems waiting but I think they would be solvable
09:54:25 <Terkhen> the most time consuming part is profiling the changes, though
10:01:13 <guru3> so right, is it ok if i edit the system requirements a bit?
10:01:30 <flitz> general concern: my programming-todo list keeps getting longer instead of shorter while working :/
10:02:03 <avdg> flitz: prioritize?
10:02:19 <flitz> only important things in it, bugs and stuff
10:02:26 <avdg> having too much todo's is imo always good if you don't know what to do
10:02:59 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I'm going out now, might be back later if it helps...
10:03:00 <andythenorth> bye
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10:03:45 <avdg> flitz: you have to cut what goes in and what not I think
10:03:54 <avdg> *cut off
10:04:34 <Alberth> flitz: a common problem, but not too bad, you can pick what you like best :)
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10:08:50 <guru3> you know ttd aparently, along with windows 2000, was not compatible with ati radeon graphics card?
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10:24:54 <Zuu> guru3: Do we have TTD specs on the OpenTTD wiki?
10:25:42 <guru3> aparently
10:25:47 <guru3> ive updated them some based on my experience
10:46:07 <avdg> well, the system requirements depends on how big the size of the map is in general right?
10:47:00 <guru3> that's mostly a ram requirement
10:47:08 <guru3> cpu depends on the size of your company
10:47:09 <avdg> so maybe better to tell what the *expected* requirements are for lets say 128^2
10:47:32 <Alberth> ttdx used 256^2 afaik
10:47:38 <avdg> cpu depends also on what is available in the map (but bigger maps
10:47:38 <avdg> 
10:47:42 <guru3> how about 2^8?
10:47:42 <avdg> bleh
10:47:50 <avdg> requires faster more cpu)
10:48:09 <avdg> hmm, I was not aware of what the default map size was
10:48:15 <guru3> 256x256, or 2^8
10:49:08 <avdg> guru3: on what did you "tested" these specs
10:49:39 <guru3> by tested do you mean what openttd settings did i have with what hardware?
10:49:45 <avdg> yeah
10:50:22 <guru3> hrm, tough to answer
10:50:29 <avdg> or we can just remove the specs and say it should run with any "modern" computer
10:50:31 <guru3> running openttd is generally one of my tests of any new computer i setup
10:50:43 <guru3> so ive hit a huge range of hardware over the years
10:50:44 <avdg> openttd as benchmark :p
10:50:54 <guru3> well i run it because it's generally low spec :)
10:52:16 <guru3> i either use a 2^6, 2^7, or 2^8 map
10:52:32 <guru3> at 64x64 tiles it's small, but still playable
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10:54:30 <guru3> i last tested with a p1 around 0.7 i think
10:54:49 <guru3> actually i think most of my last testing was with around 0.7
10:54:56 <guru3> but i dont think the specs have changed much since then
10:55:31 <avdg> what about this "OpenTTD can run on any modern computer, but bigger maps and maps with many constructions needs more memory and cpu then smaller and empty maps" or something
10:55:57 <avdg> since I think its hard to define the stats the right(tm) way
10:56:56 <guru3> i think seeing the specs written out is good
10:57:01 <avdg> in meaning of that multiple people can set a min spec (so how do we measure that)
10:57:03 <guru3> but maybe a notice saying that this are true minimums
10:57:20 <guru3> or really, openttd has been known to run on hardware as old as
10:57:29 <guru3> but performance will obviously get better with a newer pc
10:57:47 <avdg> nah, performance is not the issue
10:57:59 <guru3> ? surely it is
10:58:05 <avdg> its about the state of the map in most cases
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10:58:21 <guru3> performance == how well the game plays
10:58:35 <Chrill> OpenTTD maps bigger than 512x512 struggle on my 2.13 GHz dualcore with a rather average graphics card and 2GB of ram
10:58:35 <guru3> which depends on the map and the system specs
10:58:36 <Chrill> just sayin
10:58:47 <guru3> you have too many trains then Chrill
10:58:51 <Chrill> 40?
10:58:55 <guru3> err
10:59:00 <guru3> planes/busses?
10:59:05 <guru3> (ships even?)
10:59:13 <Chrill> rarely use planes, very rarely ships, but maybe 100 RVs
10:59:20 <guru3> are they going really far?
10:59:27 <Chrill> no, mostly in the same city
10:59:39 <guru3> um well... it should be running better than that then
10:59:44 <Chrill> it should indeed
10:59:46 <Chrill> but it never does
10:59:51 <guru3> graphics card drivers?
10:59:55 <Chrill> updated
11:00:02 <guru3> changed blitter?
11:00:09 <Chrill> the computer was bought in 2010 so its not that old anyway
11:00:13 <Chrill> blitter? dont know that word
11:00:31 <avdg> chrill: the bling bling on the map ;-)
11:00:55 <guru3> blitter is the method openttd uses to draw to the screen
11:01:06 <guru3> openttd -h in the cmd window for more info
11:01:08 <Chrill> well, if I dont know about it, I suppose its very default
11:01:29 <Chrill> admittedly, I run a high amount of NewGRFS
11:01:40 <guru3> urgh that's probably not going to help
11:02:08 * guru3 <3 original graphics
11:02:16 <Chrill> I love the NARS trains though
11:02:18 <Chrill> :D
11:02:38 <avdg> guru3: I tend just to say that we can't measure these specs, a player can run the game on a lower hardware, but lower specs, so just specify that the requirements depends on the state of the map, just my few words about it
11:03:00 <Chrill> OpenTTD can be too demanding for a modern computer if the map is big enough and used enough
11:03:03 <guru3> that's entirely correct, but i think potential users need to see examples of how low we mean by low
11:03:09 <Chrill> and it can be run on a 10 yr old machine if the map is small enough
11:03:27 <avdg> just fix it ;-
11:03:28 <avdg> )
11:03:32 <guru3> the original box for ttd says 486 25 mhz :)
11:03:39 <guru3> maybe we should post those specs? :P
11:03:43 <Chrill> yeah, i doubt openttd would qualify :P
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11:07:52 <avdg> brb
11:08:03 <guru3> working on an update to the page...
11:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> small question: lets assume i have a GRF which checks:
11:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> -1 * -1 07 88 04 \7G XX XX XX XX 02
11:08:24 <Eddi|zuHause> -1 * -1 07 88 04 \7gG XX XX XX XX 01
11:08:26 <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't that be the same, if it just did \7GG once? or am i missing some semantics here?
11:08:56 <Zuu> Hmm is this information on NoAI save/load depricated?
11:09:24 <Zuu> It seems OpenTTD never call the Load(..) function of my CluelessPlus AI. Both in 1.1.0 and trunk.
11:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> according to \7G is "is active", \7gG is "is not yet, but will be active" and "\7GG" is "is or will be active"
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11:12:24 <Zuu> Hmm, now save/load works again for a new game but not for the one I created an hour ago. So possible ignore my complaint :-p
11:13:12 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: maybe when the grf was coded \7GG didn't exist
11:14:20 <Zuu> Or is it that Save() fails to be called when the AI is stuck deep in some code?
11:16:00 <guru3> i have to ask, when was the last time anyone actually saw a copy of ttd in a bargain bin?
11:16:14 <guru3> i found mine in 2003 i think
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11:19:23 <Zuu> I never been at a game shop in ages. Except for one time 3-4 years ago when I bought SimCity4.
11:19:36 * Chrill shops for Zuu
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11:19:46 <Chrill> @ Spelia
11:19:58 <guru3> i should point out that that 2003 was the first time i'd seen transport tycoon in a shop since about 1997
11:20:10 <guru3> and it was in the bargain bin then too
11:20:44 <guru3> on the flip side ive new got 3 copies of transport tycoon (floppy, cd, and cd with alternate graphics/world editor)
11:20:53 <Zuu> well it is not point-and-shoot, so most people don't understand it :-p
11:20:54 <guru3> and one copy of ttd (bargain bin windows 95 version)
11:21:20 <guru3> the install for TT was pretty cool too
11:21:23 <Chrill> I have the floppy TTO back home in Sweden
11:21:25 <Chrill> somwehre, lost it :p
11:21:49 <guru3> mine's in the attic, right next to pizza tycoon
11:21:51 <Chrill> I remember this karting game I had on PC back in the 90s..
11:21:55 <Chrill> 4 floppy disks
11:22:06 <guru3> which i bought with some godforsaken thought that it might be as good as TT
11:22:11 <Chrill> i wanna play it, find it online, but cannot for the love of God remember its name
11:22:11 <guru3> that... was not true
11:22:13 <Chrill> anyone got any idea? :P
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11:23:31 <guru3> nope all the computer gaming of my youth was TT
11:23:35 <guru3> and pretty much just TT
11:23:37 <guru3> for about 4 years
11:23:49 <guru3> make that 6 years
11:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i had more games during that time....
11:24:16 <guru3> no strike that 5 years
11:24:23 <guru3> something in the range anyway
11:24:30 <guru3> i'd wake up at 6 am to play
11:24:35 <guru3> on the weekends anyway
11:24:50 <Chrill> lol
11:25:09 <guru3> i was badly addicted
11:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember when my brother got TT, we installed it in secret on our father's PC (which was faster)
11:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> we played all day, and deleted it before he got home
11:25:36 <guru3> i had no trouble running on the family IBM
11:25:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but he found out anyway
11:25:50 <guru3> 120Mhz P1, 64mb/ram
11:25:51 <Chrill> Eddi|zuHause: you hacker you
11:26:21 <Chrill> can old TTO savegames open in OTTD?
11:26:32 <Eddi|zuHause> he said something like "the giveaway was that you weren't asking to install it" :p
11:26:44 <Eddi|zuHause> [implying that we had already done so]
11:26:56 <guru3> Chrill: yes! it's great seeing some of the shit i did way back when
11:27:04 <guru3> need to find all my old zips with saves so i can load them up, but they're back home :(
11:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> guru3: yes, but with 25MHz it's not as much fun
11:27:10 <Chrill> aww I really need to find that old junk
11:27:14 <guru3> Eddi|zuHause... i can believe that
11:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> my father's PC had 60MHz
11:27:40 <guru3> hot damn, blazing fast
11:27:52 <guru3> 486 DX series or early pentium?
11:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> 486
11:28:14 <guru3> the good old days before ZIF when jumpers did shit
11:28:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the older one was 386
11:29:00 <guru3> ouch, that's got to have been below min spec
11:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it's ok with no vehicles, but after a few trains you notice significant slowdown
11:29:58 <guru3> yeah makes sense
11:30:09 <guru3> i'd always hit the 120 limit before that happened
11:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the limit was 80
11:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and you rather quickly reach that
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11:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and the game comes to a crawl at that point...
11:31:07 <guru3> hmmm 80 also sounds right
11:31:13 <guru3> it's been too long since i played
11:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> for the next few months/years/i totally have no sense of time/... i never reached 1940 [starting 1930]
11:31:37 <guru3> once i got the secnario editor i would create small islands
11:31:40 <guru3> and completely fill them up
11:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i have savegames like that ;)
11:31:59 <guru3> made it a real challange to build towards the end when most every tile was taken
11:32:03 <avdg> guru3: ty btw to fix my changes
11:32:26 <guru3> np, my last edit on the wiki was about 6 years ago it seems
11:32:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22302 /trunk/src/blitter/base.cpp: -Codechange: Replace a linear search with a binary search.
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11:36:10 <guru3> now i really need to go shopping for food for lunch
11:36:13 <guru3> toodles
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12:23:44 * Zuu finds an interesting "feature" CluelessPlus buy more vehicles for new connections if the vehicles have higher capacity :-)
12:24:15 <Alberth> :)
12:25:09 <avdg> nice feature :)
12:25:24 <avdg> is that also because these vehicles produce higher ratings?
12:26:26 <Zuu> at least it does use the travel time estimation in the right way so shorter connections correctly get fewer vehicles. :-)
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13:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone got the current cargo translation table of FIRS?
13:56:23 <frosch123> <- why do you ask?
13:58:09 <yorick> in ADMIN_PACKET_ADMIN_UPDATE_FREQUENCY, a uint16 is used for AdminUpdateType, but in ADMIN_PACKET_ADMIN_POLL, a uint8 is used
14:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: need to hack refit masks...
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14:10:28 <fonsinchen> I have the perfect solution to nondeterministic orders...
14:10:48 <fonsinchen> The only real nondeterministic ones left are conditionals
14:11:00 <fonsinchen> everything else is solved with auto orders.
14:11:15 *** aber has joined #openttd
14:11:37 <fonsinchen> Now for all conditional orders except those depending on load percentage I can just greedily evaluate them and hope the value won't change.
14:11:58 <fonsinchen> For load percentage conditions I just choose a random value in each loading turn.
14:12:19 <fonsinchen> Like this the vehicle will load for all stations it might visit.
14:12:29 <fonsinchen> (but not for all stations in the world)
14:12:49 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: i had some weird effect when telling a vehicle "goto A" as sole entry
14:13:12 <fonsinchen> when?
14:13:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yesterday, in chill's patchpack... don't know how current a snapshot it uses of cargodist
14:13:48 <fonsinchen> What happened?
14:14:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it unconditionally loaded cargo, and sold it when arriving again
14:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> A is both transfer-station as well as accepting station for the cargo
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14:15:01 <fonsinchen> hm, bad
14:15:29 <fonsinchen> I'll try to reproduce that when I'm done with the "next hop" rewrite.
14:30:16 <yorick> something that might be nice: a way to determine when an rcon command sent using ADMIN_PACKET_ADMIN_RCON has finished without knowing the exact outputs of each of the commands
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14:51:44 <frosch123> the lifetime of heqs trams seems a bit high
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14:52:40 <frosch123> hmm, did that summon him :p
14:52:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the sixth sense :p
14:53:21 <andythenorth> tada
14:53:30 <andythenorth> I'm not the only one who does that :P
14:53:34 <andythenorth> frosch123 does it too
14:53:45 <andythenorth> it's a very lovely day in the UK
14:53:53 <andythenorth> looks just like the Temperate climate
14:54:13 <frosch123> yeah, i am sitting in the sun and play desert :p
14:54:29 <frosch123> just using heqs trams to transport water
14:55:19 <supermop> hmm i wonder if it will look bad to post a new thread for just one wip image
14:56:11 <supermop> that is not related to either of the other projects i have going
14:56:17 <supermop> might look unfocused
14:56:27 <supermop> but i am pretty unfocused....
14:56:34 <frosch123> hmm, are depot orders broken again...
14:57:01 <andythenorth> supermop: nah it's fine
14:57:09 <frosch123> they used to skip orders to the same depot they get started in
14:57:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: when aren't depot orders broken? :P
14:57:54 <supermop> ok
14:58:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: started playing 2 hours ago, already got 6 issues which need urgent fixing :p
14:58:17 <andythenorth> ho
14:58:20 <supermop> now i need to think of another 4 letter acronym
14:58:24 <andythenorth> you should play more often :)
14:58:30 <frosch123> "urgent" as in "they annoy me" :p
14:58:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: are those 6 issues for my grfs, or the game? :o
14:58:56 <frosch123> oh, yeah, i have also one issue for heqs
14:59:07 <frosch123> tram lifetimes of 70 years is quite high
14:59:11 <andythenorth> frosch123: it can't make use of rv-wagons?
14:59:14 <andythenorth> oh something else
14:59:24 <andythenorth> frosch123: high for game, or high for RL?
14:59:40 <supermop> do NGUP or NGMS sound bad in any languages?
14:59:50 <andythenorth> NGUP isn't great to say
14:59:53 <andythenorth> what is the set?
14:59:55 <frosch123> high compared to everything else in the game
15:00:01 <andythenorth> frosch123: 50 years?
15:00:09 <andythenorth> I wanted to make them distinctive in some respects
15:00:21 <supermop> well sort of an umbrella set for my grfs,
15:00:26 <supermop> but a town set for now
15:00:45 <supermop> is META taken?
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15:00:56 <supermop> too pretentious?
15:01:11 <andythenorth> no
15:01:27 <andythenorth> just pick something you like and reverse-acronym it
15:01:32 <supermop> ok now what can meta stand for...
15:01:43 <supermop> modular,
15:01:57 <frosch123> extensible
15:02:30 <andythenorth> macro extension template attribute language
15:02:35 <andythenorth> hmm - that's metal
15:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: silly thought: remove goods output of the foundry, and instead make a car factory that takes metal and mnsp and produces goods (cars)?
15:02:48 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: planned as an economy
15:02:55 <andythenorth> along with auto parts of some kind
15:02:57 <andythenorth> and maybe rubber
15:03:03 <supermop> i want meta as short for metabolist
15:03:09 <andythenorth> ^ would need a few other cargos bounced out
15:03:15 <supermop> but that doesnt really mean anything to ottd
15:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: my proposal would also work without additional cargo, though
15:04:07 <andythenorth> yes, but it wouldn't add much...would it?
15:04:09 <supermop> here are my older ideas:
15:04:19 <andythenorth> and it wouldn't be available until 1920s....(maybe that's good?)
15:04:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. around the same time as aluminium chain?
15:05:08 <supermop> nakagin umbrella project, nakagin modular set, nakagin metabolist set, metabolist modular set
15:05:49 <andythenorth> naps
15:05:59 <andythenorth> Nagakin Project Set
15:06:08 <supermop> metabolist modular (x) set, where x is this module (town, road, etc)
15:06:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that all sounds like some esoteric church thing...
15:06:32 <andythenorth> NAPS town
15:06:36 <supermop> well, kurokawa is the impetus, but i dont want it to be all about just one building
15:06:37 <andythenorth> NAPS road
15:06:47 <andythenorth> hmmm
15:06:58 <andythenorth> anyways
15:06:58 * andythenorth observes SAC has taken an interesting solution to criticism?
15:07:14 <andythenorth> a sort of "I'll take my toys away" approach
15:07:27 <peter1138> s/an interesting/her usual/
15:07:50 * andythenorth sighs
15:07:56 <andythenorth> it would have been so easily resolved
15:08:07 <andythenorth> all she had to do was act a bit better
15:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you assume what a grown-up man would have done...
15:08:54 <andythenorth> it's a failing on my part
15:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but now assume a girl who's playing with trains...
15:09:04 <DanMacK> Hey Andy
15:09:09 <andythenorth> hi DanMacK
15:09:14 <andythenorth> do you want to draw some stuff?
15:10:46 <supermop> im going to just use meta in the post, i can change it later
15:16:53 <supermop> i guess i should keep modular as the first letter
15:17:10 <supermop> to preserve my "brand"
15:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you should register that as a trademark and sue everybody that uses it :p
15:20:14 <supermop> ha
15:35:11 <andythenorth> Terkhen: hi hi
15:40:02 * andythenorth ponders
15:40:10 <andythenorth>
15:40:18 <andythenorth> needs repainting
15:40:24 <andythenorth> company colour roof? or grey?
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15:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> some hints of company colour might make it look more interesting
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15:48:30 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
15:48:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm thinking that too
15:49:01 <andythenorth> Terkhen: can I do anything towards rv-wagons...?
15:49:05 <andythenorth> allowing it's a long project...
15:49:12 <andythenorth> "one commit at a time"
15:49:55 <Terkhen> not much for now, I guess... I don't have much time right now to continue profiling and coding new patches
15:50:21 <Terkhen> my final year project is due soon and it's not going as smoothly as I wanted
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15:51:44 <andythenorth> that should have priority ;)
15:53:21 <Terkhen> sorry to keep you waiting, I hope to have more free time for openttd stuff in a month or so :)
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16:00:53 <supermop_> got bumped off the imac in the middle of writing a post
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16:25:55 <supermop> ok
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16:37:02 <Zuu> Hmm, more than half of all CluelessPlus code exist in main.nut - or more exactly 3865 lines :-)
16:51:08 <andythenorth> god object...?
16:54:16 <Alberth> who needs objects anyway ;)
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16:56:39 <yorick> anyone interested in an (undocumented) (ugly) (basic) library for openttd admin interface communication in node.js? :)
16:58:04 <Sacro> Yeah can do
16:58:13 <peter1138> OpenTTD server in node.js!
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17:03:12 <yorick> peter1138: if you have a lot of spare time :)
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17:16:50 <Rubidium> dihedral: having a port open but not accepting connections would cause more issues I think
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17:27:00 <Richard52> hello
17:27:55 <Richard52> Where are all?
17:29:35 <Alberth> away, in the sun
17:30:10 <Alberth> or busy doing other RL things
17:32:25 <yorick>
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17:42:42 <supermop> took me forever to post this
17:42:43 <supermop>
17:44:06 <supermop> that was what I was discussing earlier, Andy
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17:54:18 <andythenorth> interestink
17:55:43 <supermop> that is a totem to represent the idea of the town set
17:55:49 <supermop> and the other sets as well
17:56:09 <supermop> that one is roughly 8m/tile
17:56:30 <supermop> other scales will be 4 and 12
17:56:37 <supermop> 4 won't really work
18:01:31 <DanMacK> Interesting idea
18:02:29 * DanMacK would actually make the capsules smaller
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18:07:18 <supermop> yeah,
18:07:39 <supermop> trying to keep it similar in proportion to the prototype
18:07:47 <supermop> which i have walked through
18:08:00 <supermop> but there is a case for derivation
18:08:06 <supermop> obviously
18:08:35 <supermop> this is only 6 levels high and is roughly as tall as i can safely make it, the real one is 13
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18:12:50 <andythenorth> grrr
18:12:56 <andythenorth> high-contrast buildings look better
18:13:01 <andythenorth> even though I think they shouldn't
18:13:31 <supermop> i should make it higher contrast/
18:13:37 <supermop> or for firs?
18:13:48 <andythenorth> firs
18:13:55 <andythenorth> I'm reworking the furniture factory
18:14:08 <supermop> so Dan, what other proportions need changing?
18:17:06 <Richard52> Do waht you want 'cause a pirate is free...
18:17:09 <Richard52> continue
18:20:38 <DanMacK> I'd just say the capsules TBH
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18:23:23 <supermop> ok
18:23:44 <supermop> what do you think about the lower slab floor?
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18:30:13 <andythenorth> bah
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18:40:07 <andythenorth> improved?
18:40:33 <supermop> i like the darkness
18:40:40 <supermop> but the contrast seems too high
18:41:03 <Terkhen> I prefer the new one too
18:41:40 <supermop> lunchtime
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18:41:55 <andythenorth> really I should eliminate the stone bits and do it all in brick
18:41:59 <andythenorth> but that would be boring...
18:42:14 <andythenorth> time to do something else :)
18:42:34 <andythenorth> DanMacK: mind if I improve the windmill?
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18:52:07 <avdg> hmm, I have again a bugged compile (make executes a command twice)
18:52:18 * avdg tries singlethreated
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20:08:23 <yorick> my admin client is not receiving ADMIN_PACKET_SERVER_CLIENT_ERROR on openttd 1.1
20:08:26 <yorick> .0
20:08:29 <yorick> (I checked with tcpdump)
20:13:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22303 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify the 'zerofill' parameter of FormatNumber() and reduce usage of magic numbers.
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20:19:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... konqueror is not liking grf2html-output with 4000 images
20:20:44 <glx> hehe
20:21:14 <frosch123> :p
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20:22:15 <frosch123> i should offer it to some browser-performance-study
20:22:34 <Rubidium> yeah ;)
20:22:52 <frosch123> it is also suitable for a filesystem performance study
20:26:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22304 /trunk/src/ (strings.cpp table/control_codes.h table/strgen_tables.h): -Add: {DECIMAL} string code to print decimal fractions.
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20:27:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22305 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Add: One digit for the fractional part of train lengths in the depot view.
20:29:09 <Eddi|zuHause> do the lang files have decimal separator meanwhile?
20:29:22 <frosch123> long ago
20:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> was that used anywhere?
20:30:13 <frosch123> e.g. for 3.5 MB to download
20:30:41 <yorick> it appears that ServerNetworkGameSocketHandler::CloseConnection is missing "NetworkAdminClientError(this->client_id, NETWORK_ERROR_CONNECTION_LOST);"
20:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i had an idea once: large money values could be shortened with something like: 15,00 Mio €, 234,5 Mrd €, etc.
20:31:23 <Yexo> isn't that already done in a few places?
20:31:39 <frosch123> only for SI stuff
20:31:58 <frosch123> so k€, M€ and G€ might be possible :p
20:32:25 <Eddi|zuHause> these prefixes should be translateable ;)
20:33:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22306 /trunk/src/lang/slovak.txt: -Fix-ish: WT3 still doesn't validate the amount of plural parameters
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20:34:21 * yorick submits bug report
20:37:30 <Eddi|zuHause> dbsetxl seems to have some kind of "debug mode" when the TTDPatch version is set to 0
20:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it skips various compatibility checks then
20:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> or i am reading things wrong
20:40:07 <asilv> maybe old versions don't have any info to check?
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21:15:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22307 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Fix: When drawing the town authority window, check whether the availability of the actions changed, and force a complete redraw in that case.
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21:52:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22308 /trunk/src/network/ (network_client.cpp network_server.cpp): -Fix [FS#4574]: waiting on a server could kick the client, or rather the client would kick itself due to an unexpected packet
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21:56:47 <Terkhen> good night
21:58:43 <supermop> would a replacement need to provide the same number of different houses as the original set?
22:03:24 <supermop> oops
22:03:27 <supermop> *town
22:03:46 <supermop> or can it have greater or fewer?
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22:04:30 <Rubidium> yes
22:05:10 <supermop> i take that to mean it can have any number?
22:05:32 <Rubidium> nope
22:05:51 <supermop> that it can only have the original number then?
22:05:53 <Rubidium> it must be something in the range of 1..255 (I think)
22:06:03 <supermop> oh ok
22:06:59 <Rubidium> (and to be pedantic: it also must be a natural number ;))
22:07:34 <supermop> ouch!
22:08:15 <supermop> essentially i wanted to know if i could throw something together with say4-10 buildings, just to see them in game
22:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you can do that
22:08:34 <supermop> rather than code dozens first
22:08:46 <Rubidium> then ask that instead of meta questions ;)
22:10:33 <supermop> well the question aswers two things for me:
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22:11:19 <supermop> can i create a quick prototype, and can I eventually exceed the default number with extra permutations of some buildings
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22:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yes and yes
22:12:51 <supermop> good and goos
22:13:01 <supermop> *good
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22:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> how evil is shortening a vehicle in a running game?
22:48:34 <Rubidium> autoreplace happens all the time, so not at all ;)
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22:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what?
22:49:59 <Eddi|zuHause> if that was a joke i didn't get it...
22:50:54 <Rubidium> autoreplace removes wagons all the time, making the whole vehicle shorter
22:51:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i meant train property 21 :p
22:51:32 <Rubidium> oh, that shortening ;)
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22:52:19 <Rubidium> it might merely trigger some assertions, NOT_REACHEDs, GPFs and such. Most likely due to the train separating
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22:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so, besides the warning message upon loading the game/grf, there's no further saveguards?
22:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the one saying "vehicle X has wrong length"
22:55:16 <Rubidium> except the usual things like train integrity checks and sync checks
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22:56:03 <frosch123> i think you are relatively save as long as you send the trains to a depot before reversing them
22:56:55 <frosch123> i.e. length only matters on reversing
22:58:11 <Eddi|zuHause> aha. interesting. only that's very difficult with my games :p
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22:58:47 <frosch123> lucky trains, if they cannot fall off the track in your layouts :p
22:59:26 <frosch123> night
22:59:31 *** frosch123 has quit IRC
22:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i'm totally not getting any jokes tonight...
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