IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-08
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04:39:23 <Cozzie> I am currently in a bit of newgrf frenzy where I am trying to cram as much grfs without having any conflicts (and failing) any advices?
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06:42:19 <planetmaker> Cozzie: there's no general guideline. But "as much as possible" is not a good approach ;-)
06:42:45 <planetmaker> You should only add those which you "need"
06:46:42 <planetmaker> Of course you can (and probably should) configure it for each game separately. In case of doubt of what a newgrf does start a short test game with it and decide upon that whether it matches your intended scenario
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07:07:47 <Cozzie> hrmm i figured as such, i want to make a big game that is as rich as possible but i ended up with some weird effects (ie: planes having running cost higher than it's earning potential)
07:08:56 <Cozzie> not to mention some of the grfs arent properly documented
07:11:09 <planetmaker> It doesn't need many grfs for a big and rich game ;-) But it definitely helps to only use grfs where you at least know somewhat their effects
07:12:09 <planetmaker> indeed, though not every grf is well documented, though readmes for many can be found
07:12:20 <Cozzie> hahaha cause i just started playing again, so im in that phase
07:12:34 <Cozzie> what are your recommendation?
07:12:54 <planetmaker> I've no fixed set of newgrfs
07:13:26 <Cozzie> my aim is to have a wide variety of choices and having each transport option financially viable
07:13:34 <Cozzie> what's your favourites then?
07:14:45 <planetmaker> I'd throw in a few station grfs like isr, dwe, chips. Add heqs, then egrvts or long vehicles, then fish, av8; nars / ukrs / 2ccTrains / japanese. SwedishRails
07:15:02 <planetmaker> firs, maybe japanese landscape or opengfx+landscape
07:15:09 <planetmaker> note the few or I said :-)
07:15:22 <planetmaker> the trains are alternatives. not ands
07:15:40 <Cozzie> ive yet to try out the trains as i know they can be complicated
07:15:50 <Cozzie> pity cant mix those trainsets
07:16:17 <Cozzie> ive tried fish, avt, egrvts and hoverbus
07:16:23 <planetmaker> well, you can mix trainsets
07:16:31 <Cozzie> currently checking out balance based grfs
07:16:42 <planetmaker> but some authors don't like that - that's the biggest issue there - and make it hard(er) to mix them
07:16:51 <planetmaker> yes and no. They might
07:17:12 <Cozzie> that's a shame though authors making things harder =/
07:19:07 <planetmaker> yes. But it's a matter of compatibility. Making sets work along eachother is not an easy task with train sets.
07:19:29 <planetmaker> at least in a (mostly) bug-free way when you at the same time want to supply a feature-rich set
07:20:24 <planetmaker> but maybe you also just want to use firs and opengfx+trains. Then you can also transport everything :-)
07:20:40 <planetmaker> also opengfx+road vehicles then
07:22:09 <Cozzie> i'll check those out but it seems i would have to spend quite a bit of time on these
07:26:55 <planetmaker> Cozzie: often less is more in the area of newgrf ;-)
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09:28:50 <Cozzie> curiously, by default does the value of the cargo start decreasing once it is loaded or only after it leaves the station?
09:29:42 <planetmaker> or rather as soon as it gets loaded the first time
09:30:08 <planetmaker> he, it was an or question. I need more tea
09:31:00 <Cozzie> and one more, the cargo price timer does not get reseted in transfer until it reaches the end destination is that correct?
09:31:46 <Cozzie> haha just wondering =P
09:31:57 <planetmaker> the clock runs once you start delivering a cargo
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09:32:27 <planetmaker> transfer orders is just how you company-internally manage to do that
09:32:28 <Cozzie> so say, when a train is waiting for wood to be loaded, the timer has already started ticking?
09:35:21 <Cozzie> hrmm ive been playing this game for 13 years i am still so unknowledgeable at the intricacies
09:57:55 <Wolf01> do you know I have a script for that?
10:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> pressing Alt+F4 twice?
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10:33:43 <welshdragon> Devs: I have a request from a friend.
10:34:44 <welshdragon> a friend who writes for a Linux Magazine
10:34:59 <Eddi|zuHause> one of those facebook things?
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10:36:07 <welshdragon> a request for information on cross platform program compiling
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10:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a wiki page about that, probably horribly outdated
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10:47:22 <Yexo> welshdragon: why are you asking that question in #openttd? cross-compiling is not really openttd specific, and there is lots of information about it
10:47:46 <Chrill> Yexo: where else to ask for a direct answer? people in the know are around
10:48:12 <Yexo> sure, if it was a small/simple question, but it's very broad and vague
10:49:10 <welshdragon> Yexo, and OpenTTD is a well known Cross Platform Game
10:49:50 <Yexo> yes, but I'm still not sure what you want to know
10:49:53 <Chrill> Yexo: I agree with you there. However, I feel like welshdragon made an assumption (a correct one) that people here could point him in the right direction
10:50:42 <Chrill> and there you go, someone here helped him :P
11:00:57 <Yexo> still reads like a very broad question that can be answered by reading a bit on wikipedia and searching for any questions you get from there
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11:22:34 <Cozzie> is there anyway of turning landed areas into water?
11:23:01 <Yexo> if you want sea: it's only possible if it's at level 0
11:23:18 <Yexo> just make a connection with other sea tiles and it'll flood
11:26:07 <Cozzie> make a connection with other sea tiles?
11:26:47 <Cozzie> im at the same level as the water
11:27:13 <Yexo> lower land between water and your empty tiles until the sea can flow to your new area
11:27:31 <Yexo> instead of sea you can also connect to a map border if that's easier
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11:31:08 <Yexo> indeed, those are either canals or it's made with some patch I haven't heard of
11:31:47 <Wolf01> boekabart's leveled water patch, maybe
11:31:51 <planetmaker> I think those are rivers
11:32:08 <planetmaker> the border clearly is a river border, not canal
11:32:22 <Wolf01> rivers.. canals... not sea :D
11:32:44 <planetmaker> sorry for being pedantic ;-)
11:33:09 <Cozzie> i was testing out something and it is an eye sore
11:33:53 <planetmaker> only sea floods. Rivers and canals don't
11:35:51 <Cozzie> fun scenario though, 1.3k of farm production =x
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12:15:07 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Werrakirchen%20Transport,%2018.%20Jan%201934.png
12:17:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd love to see how coop people would route cargo trains through a mostly single-track network :p
12:19:18 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I'd recon we'd quickly overload the network with trains ;-)
12:19:29 <flitz> is there a savegame to this ?
12:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... could do this, but needs chills patch pack
12:20:55 <planetmaker> and modified newgrf ;-)
12:21:01 <planetmaker> seems to be the same savegame :-P
12:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's the same game.
12:21:21 <flitz> I use chills patchpack, don't know about the newgrfs :)
12:21:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't distribute the modified newgrfs, so a savegame wouldn't be of much use
12:22:34 <planetmaker> it's really helpful with screenshots :-)
12:23:06 <flitz> btw, do you study in halle ?
12:23:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i study lots of things :p
12:24:09 <peter1138> Yeah, beer and women.
12:24:52 <flitz> how does it look today ? (i grew up there)
12:25:43 <Eddi|zuHause> besides of lots of closed industries and neglected road repair?
12:26:03 <__ln__> i heard there's a new grocery or something
12:26:31 <flitz> I heard they turned my home area into a forest ...
12:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> they teared down quite a lot of buildings in Silberhöhe and Neustadt... but "forest" is a little exaggerated :p
12:27:35 <flitz> ok, or something green at least ;)
12:31:42 <flitz> hm, not that the old stuff was actually pretty
12:49:26 <planetmaker> o_O SAC made it again. Into a flaming topic
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12:59:50 <peter1138> SAC's always trolling, anyway
13:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the vapourtroll.
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13:58:33 <Hirundo> Is it possible to disable "vehicle XXX is getting old" news messages? (without disabling all vehicle-related messages, that is)
13:59:08 <planetmaker> good question. Next one please ;-)
14:00:24 <Hirundo> Feature Request: Add a setting to enable/disable "vehicle XXX is getting old" news messages.
14:00:51 <planetmaker> or automatically disable that when "vehicles never expire" is on. Or do we do that already then?
14:01:44 <Hirundo> I have vehicles never expire off, but in 2100 replacing stuff isn't of much use
14:02:17 <planetmaker> I rather meant the breakdown setting
14:02:22 <planetmaker> it makes sense with that.
14:02:55 <Hirundo> autorenew and breakdowns are off
14:03:19 <planetmaker> yeah. And without breakdowns there's no need to renew and there's no need for that message.
14:03:25 <planetmaker> but setting might be better
14:03:42 <Hirundo> YAAS (yet another advanced setting)
14:03:55 <planetmaker> hm... there's also a setting which is "autorenew only when breakdowns" or similar. IIRC
14:04:30 <dihedral> Hirundo, 'jazz' would be more creative :-P "just anaza zettingz"
14:04:47 <Hirundo> "Disable servicing when breakdowns set to none"
14:04:59 <Hirundo> I wonder, how that affects autorenew
14:05:22 <planetmaker> no autorenew, if there's no service.
14:05:47 <planetmaker> IIRC, but again, I'd need to test, vehicles don't go into a depot just for being replaced
14:07:32 <Hirundo> They seem to do for autoreplace, not sure about autorenew (yet)
14:07:44 <planetmaker> but honestly, IMHO the "best" approach would be like you asked a more fine-grain controlled news setting
14:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> they do go to depot if an autoreplace rule applies, even if servicing is disabled
14:08:31 <planetmaker> ok, then I recalled wrongly :-)
14:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is usually that you didn't place your depots so they are easily accessible from many routes :p
14:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> my biggest problem usually is that they are only accessible from one direction. so trains easily get lost after they were in the depot
14:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes by luck, other times by design, they'll exit through turning at another depot
14:10:57 <planetmaker> yeah... that's why we (coop) usually build service centres which can do the job for autoreplacement with depots easily accessible for all directions
14:11:03 <planetmaker> but then, it's not done too often
14:11:08 <Eddi|zuHause> who wanted to implement drive-through depots/shunting yards? :p
14:12:26 <planetmaker> Possibly some guy from Halle?
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14:29:37 <Cozzie> what's the best strategy to earn money when a game is first started?
14:32:43 <flitz> run a coal train over a distance of ~100 tiles AFAIK
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14:33:24 <ccfreak2k> Achievement unlocked!
14:33:33 <flitz> not sure about the distance, this also depends quite much on the newgrfs you are using, with older and slower and weaker vehicles in the beginning this might be very different
14:33:51 <Cozzie> i tried playing from 1900 with the horse drawn carriage
14:34:00 <flitz> :) me too, some time ago
14:34:19 <flitz> at least you really see what trains are worth then ;)
14:34:37 <Cozzie> infrastructure for trains is horridly expensive
14:34:44 <Cozzie> and i am only limiting myself to 200k =/
14:34:53 <flitz> I barely kept alive until I had enough money to sell my around 50 carriages and buy my first train in the 50's :D
14:35:10 <Cozzie> you used the carriages and survived?
14:35:22 <Cozzie> dont have much grfs that would affect it except egrvts and altered costs and prices
14:35:43 <flitz> i used passenger carriages within a town
14:35:58 <flitz> with standard costs and prices, yes, horses
14:36:25 <Cozzie> does not have much documentation but i liked the logic that non perishable does not go down in prices
14:36:26 <flitz> is a bit ago, maybe costs and prices changed since then (there was no option for this when I tried this)
14:37:31 <Cozzie> hrmm gotta investigate what exactly altered costs and prices 1.2 affect
14:39:42 <flitz> I found that with the daylength patch the game can become significantly easier
14:40:46 <flitz> erm... but I also altered it a little bit, so that even though days are longer, payment still stays the same
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14:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... either MB messed something up, or i did, or FIRS cargo scheme changed in the mean time... the faster open wagon cannot load scrap metal...
14:54:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i should make a proper DBSetXL-Mod ;)
14:56:09 <Lakie> Doesn't MB explicitly deny the ability for others to modify his work in any way?
14:56:55 <Cozzie> should'nt any deveriatives of ottd be opensource?
14:57:05 <Lakie> He might have chosen to disallow scrap metal in that wagon, using the bitmask.
14:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Lakie: you can't disallow modification, you can only disallow distribution
14:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> more specifically, the copy right explicitly denies the right to forbid modification for "compatibility" of computer programs [here DBSet and FIRS]
15:00:06 <Lakie> I wouldn't really class newgrfs as programs, probably more closer to art
15:00:26 <Yexo> Cozzie: yes, but newgrfs are not deratives of openttd
15:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Lakie: the NFO part is clearly a computer program
15:01:05 <Lakie> Maybe in a broad sence, but then one could class xml as a computer program in that sence
15:01:21 <Cozzie> oh intersting, i thought by running on top of ottd, they would be
15:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Cozzie: and when you run a program on windows, it is automatically covered by the windows license?
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15:10:03 <xvd> is it possible to group stations and use the group as an entry for the Order list?
15:11:35 <planetmaker> but you know of shared orders and copying orders, xvd?
15:12:08 <xvd> I remember copying orders but failed to find it again ^_^
15:16:14 <planetmaker> goto + click on other vehicle
15:16:45 <planetmaker> if you use goto + ctrl + click on other vehicle they share the same orders. Thus if you modify them, it's then valid for all who share the orders
15:18:16 <flitz> and if you [ctrl] + clone a vehicle from the depot view, the cloned veh will share the originators group and orders, too - very useful
15:18:23 <Belugas> that, or search for my wife. You'll find a lot of orders...
15:20:33 <Cozzie> speaking of shortcuts is there one for clone?
15:26:07 <Cozzie> i believe i can bind myself right?
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15:31:28 <flitz> hm, my hotkeys.cfg is in binary format, don't know
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15:32:26 <flitz> But I would guess that you cannot bind any function to a hotkey which isn't already represented by another hotkey
15:32:51 <flitz> i.e. you can only re-bind
15:33:54 <Yexo> Cozzie: no, you can set custom hotkeys for any item in hotkeys.cfg ,you can't add arbitrary commands
15:34:13 <Yexo> if you really miss some hotkeys for some items feel free to post a feature request about those
15:35:31 <Cozzie> thank you for the answer
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15:51:31 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the vehicle offer windows doesn't seem to display additional newgrf text
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16:17:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: would be kinda useful to get info like "this is a {city|regional} bus"
16:18:34 <Yexo> however which text should be shown there?
16:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the same one that is displayed in the buy list?
16:19:08 <Yexo> the text is the buy list is partly by openttd and partly by the newgrf
16:22:19 <Eddi|zuHause> does that matter?
16:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> basically everything except the reliability should be shown
16:22:40 <Yexo> not perse, but it might give unexpected results
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16:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Lachie: btw. the dbset license specifically talks about the dbset consisting of "graphics" and "program code"
16:30:15 <Eddi|zuHause> err... i meant Lakie
16:30:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a weird mis-tabbing :p
16:31:42 <Lakie> Still wouldn't think of nfo as a program as such. More stored data intepreted by ttdpatch or openttd/
16:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> a program is exactly "stored data interpeted by <machine>"
16:32:51 <Eddi|zuHause> german copyright is very wide on the definition of what a program is...
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17:23:28 <Cozzie> does having multiple industries in close proximity affect each other's production rate?
17:24:46 <flitz> co-question: is industry dependant on surrounding tiles ? Meaning, does it have any effect if I lay a lot of railroads through a farm's argrarian tiles ?
17:26:18 <Cozzie> flitz: was checking out earlier this afternoon haha
17:26:27 <Cozzie> found it in the wiki but no mention of industries in close proximity
17:26:33 <LordAro> there are plans to change this, but no more than that (more a draft of a plan actually)
17:26:45 <Cozzie> in what way... this is intersting
17:27:03 <LordAro> flitz: building through farm tiles is more expensive though
17:27:04 <flitz> I have often asked that myself (but always acted the same way regardless)
17:27:45 <LordAro> cozzie: there's something on the wiki somewhere... somewhere in frosch123's user pages
17:27:46 <flitz> so the farm tiles count as belonging to the industry and building through them is like destroying some building first ?
17:28:21 <Cozzie> cool will check it out
17:29:00 <Eddi|zuHause> only the tropic saw mill is dependent on surrounding tiles
17:29:01 <flitz> the opposite is close enough :)
17:31:26 <Cozzie> i have a farm that is producing 1328 tonnes of grain and 600 tonnes of livestock (falling from 2000, why...) but the odd thing is that my train still has to wait at the station even though 23% and 33% is transported last month
17:32:39 <flitz> maybe its the station rating ?
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17:34:40 <Yexo> Cozzie: % transported last month depends on station rating
17:34:57 <Yexo> see the game mechanics wiki page for how it works
17:35:45 <planetmaker> wiki - the unexplored country. Its search function: the hidden treasure
17:36:38 <flitz> sometimes, communication is more fun than just searching and reading ;)
17:37:04 <Yexo> and sometimes, pointing to the wiki is easier than explaining yet another time ;)
17:37:45 <Cozzie> i have read it earlier today, still trying to undrestand
17:38:01 <Cozzie> tbh, the criteria for staiton ration is quite absurd
17:40:54 <Yexo> yes, they are, however it's been working this way since the original transport tycoon
17:41:53 <planetmaker> this game has more oddities in the rules than it has straight forward rules ;-)
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17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22301 /trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt:
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 35 changes by Gavin
17:45:43 <flitz> I noticed the game runs much faster (in fast mode), when I decrease the size of the main window. would it be an idea to add some limitations to the number of sprites being drawn/updated in fast mode ?
17:46:28 <Alberth> playing the game in fast mode is not much fun
17:46:34 <planetmaker> you'd perceive it as lag.
17:47:42 <Alberth> you'd also get inconsistent graphics, people will report such glitches as bugs
17:49:22 <flitz> ok, I don't even use the fast mode that much, mainly early when you still have to wait for money
17:50:03 <flitz> regarding the inconsistencies, I was more thinking about animations on buildings or the surroundings that could be skipped in fast mode. vehicles should still be driving of course
17:51:29 <Alberth> I believe moving vehicles cause about 90+% of the changes, so your optimization won't make a big dent in the speed.
17:51:52 <Yexo> animation by newgrf buildings can't be skipped
17:52:09 <Yexo> the newgrf can do anything during the animation, like computing some values needed for the production
17:52:46 <flitz> it wasn't a very well thought out idea
17:53:19 <planetmaker> flitz: for a starter disable also full details and full animation ;-)
17:53:33 <SmatZ> and make trees invisible
17:53:37 <SmatZ> possibly buildings as well
17:53:46 <Yexo> does that actually help?
17:53:53 <Yexo> as in, don't the tiles still get marked as dirty anyway?
17:54:13 <planetmaker> less to draw possibly when a vehicle passes by
17:54:14 <Alberth> it saves rendering of the trees :)
17:54:22 <SmatZ> for trees and buildings, they are not made dirty unless they are animated
17:54:25 <Cozzie> odd, i play on fast mode constantly and i dont see those oddities
17:54:32 <glx> rendering is not the biggest cpu eater
17:54:32 <Yexo> yes, but does that make a notable difference? Not saying it doesn't, mainly wondering about it
17:54:41 <planetmaker> but I only found the full details + animation making quite some effect
17:54:53 <planetmaker> the others I never noticed a difference
17:54:57 <flitz> glx: i suppose ai-computations are
17:55:12 <SmatZ> Yexo: it should be tested :)
17:55:46 <Yexo> yes, AIs are one of the most cpu consuming parts
17:57:49 <Cozzie> any plans to change the station rating critera?
17:57:52 <Eddi|zuHause> damn... when i synchronize the timetable of my freight train with the passenger trains, i can't synchronize the timetable between the freight trains. i think i need a new siding :(
17:58:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Cozzie: can be changed by newgrf
17:58:26 <Cozzie> i dont see any newgrf doing that though
17:58:34 <Yexo> correct, there is no such newgrf
17:58:50 <Cozzie> curiously why hasent anyone done so?
17:59:13 <Yexo> because it takes times and they had other interesting things to do?
17:59:44 <Alberth> because they don't see those ratings as a problem?
18:00:14 <Cozzie> for a simulation game i thought people would be more pedantic about it heh
18:00:31 <Cozzie> seriously max spee of last ation entering staiton and age of vehicle is really absurd...
18:00:32 <flitz> depends on what it is simulating :)
18:00:49 <Cozzie> i guess i have a pendanticness for realism
18:00:57 <Belugas> Cozzie, thansk for your opinion. noted. now, move on
18:01:11 <Alberth> realism is not a goal of the game imho
18:01:23 <Yexo> Cozzie: openttd is a game, not a simulator
18:01:39 <Yexo> and the station rating can only be part of a newgrf that defines cargos, which means it has to be part of an industry newgrf
18:01:51 <Yexo> if you want to use ecs or firs it has to be part of that newgrf
18:02:02 <Yexo> for the default industries you could write a custom newgrf of course
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18:05:16 <Cozzie> btw belugas i felt that was with a bit of a rude tone =/ dint really appreciate it.
18:06:06 <Belugas> well... sorry, but I could retunr the compliment. Look back at what you wrote about the game, and you can see it can be quite irritating to hear those kind of comments
18:06:28 <Alberth> especially when you heard them a zillion times before :)
18:08:44 <Belugas> but granted, when the "realism" keyword has been waved at me, i felt like a bull in front of a red cape...
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18:10:51 <Cozzie|alt> heh thought i got kicked =P
18:13:01 <Cozzie|alt> i do not want to flame for the sake of flaming and I do understand it can be irritaiting. I have been on your end before, however understand that there has been no mention in the wiki/faq that if it is a common question. Regarding the realism comment, i do understand that this game is far from a realistic simulator ala microsoft flight simulator
18:14:13 <Cozzie|alt> but the game and many of the grfs have depth and is provides great immersion due to it's relatively realistic approach. Please dont take this the wrong way that i want to argue for the sake of arguing but i just want to explain my position and was not my intent to piss you off or anything
18:14:18 <Belugas> well.. we do not have a published log on all the questions been asked
18:14:37 <Belugas> so it can be understandable
18:15:01 <Belugas> note that on forums, there were some discussions about the realism part
18:15:16 <Yexo> Cozzie|alt: lately it hasn't been so bad, but there are people that argue "signals should work different, they're not realistic" and things like that
18:16:15 <Belugas> the thing is, realism just for sake of seeking realism is absurd in context of the game. It was never intended to be a realistic product
18:16:35 <Cozzie|alt> there has to be a line drawn as this is inheritantly a game, not a simulator
18:16:43 <Belugas> people always tried to sneak in their ideas of features based on the conc ept that it would add realism
18:17:20 <Cozzie|alt> i guess signals would be the least of outrageous suggestions eh?
18:18:07 <Belugas> not outrageous, just think about what it would add to the game as per say, that would be a beter approach
18:18:19 <Alberth> Cozzie|alt: on the other hand, it is also fun to see that people that want realism suddenly want somewhat realistic things out of the game because it bothers them :p
18:18:45 <Belugas> that is also hilarious!
18:20:46 <Cozzie|alt> then in my case, how do i increase my station rating?
18:21:11 <Cozzie|alt> my livestock has fallen to 300 from 1500
18:24:47 <Belugas> ... isn't it the other way around??
18:27:21 <Belugas> ho... thanks... i'm on debuging mode, currently... falling in syntaxic mode...
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18:28:04 <Cozzie|alt> Yexo: on that page but stuck on getting the theory to work in practice
18:28:23 <Yexo> make sure there is always a vehicle loading at the station
18:28:37 <Yexo> buy a statue in the town if you haven't already done so
18:28:45 <Yexo> and make sure the vehicle is the fastest you can buy
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18:30:55 <flitz> to call inline functions from gdb: is it enough to configure with --enable-debug LVL=3 or do I need to set CFLAGS="O0" ?
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18:48:53 <flitz> funny, stepping through the instructions of the game in gdb, makes my mp3player stop ...
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19:00:39 <dpkendal> why is it not possible to view the cost of something while paused?
19:00:59 <dpkendal> even though it's not actually going to happen, you still get "Not allowed while paused"
19:02:36 <planetmaker> then enable building while paused
19:04:52 <planetmaker> arguably the cost preview should work, but... it simply doesn't currently.
19:04:59 <planetmaker> If you want, make a feature request
19:06:09 <Alberth> or provide a patch :)
19:07:40 <dpkendal> planetmaker: yeah, i probably will. seems like something that should have been in the original TTD
19:08:29 <planetmaker> I'm always amazed at the lack of convenient GUI when I start it every so seldom
19:09:13 <Alberth> does TTD even have a pause button? I cannot remember
19:09:33 <SmatZ> it has :) it doesn't have the fast-forward button
19:09:37 <planetmaker> I think so, but ^
19:09:41 <flitz> it had busses, that I know
19:10:00 <planetmaker> it has all 4 basic transport types
19:10:20 <planetmaker> nor newgrf support ;-)
19:10:57 <Eddi|zuHause> TT has both pause and cost estimation, but i never tried both...
19:11:14 <Alberth> although I don't use groups in OpenTTD :)
19:11:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it definitely didn't show a "not allowed while paused", but that only means it will be less missed ;)
19:11:42 <flitz> how do you keep your stuff together then ?
19:12:19 <Alberth> it runs at the same tracks, and visits the same station, isn't that enough?
19:12:43 <flitz> but groupwise vehicle-replacement for example
19:13:43 <Alberth> I play usually from 1950 to 1980-1990, then I get bored and quit :)
19:14:16 <Alberth> although in the past I have played longer
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19:14:49 <flitz> thinking about it I must admit that replace all must work just fine
19:15:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't use groups for trains either. groups for road vehicles occasionally, but only when i have nothing better to do...
19:15:21 <flitz> but I just like to neglect some smaller lines and keep deprecated vehicles running on them for a while :)
19:16:39 <flitz> weird, I always thought groups where essential and now I read that nobody is using them...
19:17:19 <Alberth> it depends on your playing style perhaps
19:17:52 <Alberth> and how many vehicles you have
19:21:22 <flitz> but setting up groups for every line is a lot of work, maybe I will just try without them the next time
19:23:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i tend to replace each train individually, because i can't trust the trains to find a depot by themselves
19:24:33 <Alberth> I have depots all over the place, since I play with breakdowns and servicing on :)
19:24:48 <frosch123> [21:10] <flitz> did it have groups ? <- you do not need groups if you cannot even clone
19:27:13 <flitz> but one advantage of groups still is that you see at a glance how many vehicles you have on each line
19:32:07 <Alberth> is that interesting? you can also look at how many trains visit some key station if you want to known
19:32:41 <Alberth> I just make sure there is always a train loading, how many trains I need is not interesting to me
19:34:36 <Alberth> sorry to make groups useless ;)
19:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it is interesting how many trams are on one line, if you want to timetable them every N minutes
19:35:09 <dpkendal> Something I've never known is whether fund new buildings and fund new roads affects your local authority rating -- does it?
19:35:15 <Alberth> how good are time tables with break downs?
19:35:27 <flitz> it must be just a matter of being used to something
19:35:48 <Alberth> flitz: luckily there are many ways of playing the game :)
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19:36:50 <flitz> I play with CargoDist (PAX) and when towns begin to grow my lines need more capacity. I somehow like to see the relation of the size and impact of my lines on a single screen, with pretty names to them too ;)
19:37:27 <Alberth> dpkendal: I think new roads are mostly for messing with your competitors. I don't know whether they affect town rating, you'll have to check the source for that
19:37:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i play without breakdowns
19:37:40 <flitz> you may call me a controlfreak or burocrate now if you want :p
19:38:26 <Alberth> flitz: oh, Cargodist is a completely different game, have not played it much. It may well be that you need more administration then
19:38:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i guess it ranges from "bad" [you need to schedule appropriate catch-up times] to "terrible" [vehicles of the same timetable may overtake, so you'll never be able to catch up]
19:39:06 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: pity. I have the feeling breakdowns cause so much mess that time tables are useless then
19:39:31 <Alberth> at least I have not yet seen any useful effect with them :)
19:40:10 <flitz> I'm out for today, see you
19:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> timetables are very useful for trams, because otherwise they tend to bunch up
19:41:00 <Alberth> trains do that too, but slower :)
19:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but trams are least likely to overtake and screw up the timetable spacing :p
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20:07:12 <WargH> Good eavning. I love the new option "Sea level Custom". But I'd like to know if anyone knows what the setting high equals in %. It would help me a bit with my experamenting on getting a map to my linking. I can't find any info about it in the Wiki.
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20:14:14 <Alberth> that would be world generation?
20:18:16 <Alberth> _settings_game.game_creation.custom_sea_level * 1024 / 100;
20:18:35 <Alberth> /** Desired water percentage (100% == 1024) - indexed by _settings_game.difficulty.quantity_sea_lakes */
20:18:45 <Alberth> ie 100 == 100%, it seems
20:18:52 <Alberth> does that make sense?
20:19:43 <Alberth> please fix the wiki :)
20:20:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: he asked about the other settings low/medium/high, what percentages they would represent
20:20:43 <Eddi|zuHause> at least that's how i understood the question
20:20:55 <Alberth> static const amplitude_t _water_percent[4] = {20, 80, 250, 400}; and apply * 100 / 1024
20:21:13 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: that information was nearby too :)
20:21:18 <Eddi|zuHause> @caöc 400*100/1024
20:21:19 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, at least you understood the question ^^
20:21:22 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 400*100/1024
20:21:22 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 39.0625
20:22:21 <Alberth> my reading abilties rapidly decrease at these time of the day
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20:31:38 <Belugas> altough it's not the same time frame :)
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20:44:41 <WargH> So if I understand you correctly high setting on sea level = aprox. 39% water?
20:46:34 <Yexo> that's what they told you, yes
20:47:06 <Ruudjah> Who is Nathanael Rebsch?
20:47:32 <Ruudjah> as in what nick does he use and does he hang around here?
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20:51:24 <Yexo> probably yes, however this is an english only channel
20:51:39 <Richard52> Sorry, i am here first time
20:51:54 <Richard52> Where is russian channel?
20:51:54 <dihedral> Ruudjah, don't need a private chat ;-)
20:51:59 <dihedral> feel free to chat publicly
20:52:01 <Richard52> I have problems with OTTD
20:52:19 * dihedral automatically read with an accent ^^
20:52:31 <Yexo> I'm not aware of any russian channel. If you could try to explain your problem in english we might be able to help you
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20:52:48 <Richard52> Does anyone know, where are files, where town names are?
20:53:01 <Yexo> I assume you want russian town names?
20:53:16 <Richard52> You are fast as hell
20:53:29 <Richard52> So, where i can get it?
20:53:31 <Yexo> start openttd, click on "check online content" in the bottom left of the main menu
20:53:45 <Richard52> I know how to download addons
20:53:56 <Richard52> what is the name of russian town names?
20:54:23 <Richard52> Where is Ukrainian, Turkish, german, lots of them
20:54:53 <planetmaker> If it is available via online content it will be called Russian Town Names
20:54:57 <Yexo> apparently it's not available in the online content system
20:56:40 <Ruudjah> I'm scared to chat here in public
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20:57:04 <Yexo> hmm, that grf appears to be broken
20:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i need some cheap forklift kind of vehicle...
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20:58:52 <supermop> ahh i was just showing andy the other day:
20:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> something that doesn't cost much, so i can let it run back and forth at a transfer station, to keep the rating up
20:59:11 <Richard52> Sorry, i was looking for russian town names in game built-in downloader
20:59:32 <Yexo> Richard52: I don't think any working russion town name grf is available
20:59:34 <xvd> Was there a way to rotate the world view?
20:59:35 <Richard52> So, what do you think, where i can get it?
20:59:44 <Richard52> But i know russian packs
20:59:52 <Richard52> You even can download them
21:00:06 <Richard52> there is russian town names
21:00:13 <Richard52> I am using Windows 7 Ultimate
21:00:44 <Yexo> download that pack with russian town names, extract it in "Documents\OpenTTD\Data" and restart openttd
21:00:53 <Richard52> Maybe, i should look for it in data folder?
21:00:58 <Yexo> after that it should be listed in the "NewGRF settings" window
21:01:09 <planetmaker> Richard52: there's a russian site dedicated to ttd / openttd and variations. They surely know
21:01:21 <planetmaker> where their grfs are to be gotten from
21:01:25 <Richard52> There is a few people
21:01:25 <Yexo> Richard52: there is no russian town names grf in the online content system, so you'll have to download it yourself with a web-browser
21:01:41 <Richard52> How to upload it to online content system?
21:01:57 <Lakie`> You don't the authors do
21:01:58 <Richard52> I do not want others to have problems like i do
21:01:59 <supermop> how about that one Eddi|zuHause
21:02:00 <Yexo> you're not allowed to do that unless you are the creator of the grf
21:02:24 <Richard52> All russian community made that file
21:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: it's fairly useless unless it's in GRF form ;)
21:02:26 <planetmaker> sorry, the terms of service are clear
21:02:32 <Richard52> everybody improves it
21:02:51 <Yexo> still there is probably one person who makes the last version, ask him/her to upload it
21:02:54 <supermop> 2 pixels wide, 6 pixels long
21:03:32 <Richard52> If i will make something, how to upload it?
21:04:19 <planetmaker> but please don't make us remove content again because you are not the author of what you uploaded
21:05:26 <Richard52> i copied everything as some guy said
21:05:37 <Richard52> i activated all GRFs
21:05:56 <Alberth> isn't it in the game options?
21:06:18 <Alberth> there is 'town names' there
21:06:33 <Richard52> and there is no "russian"
21:06:37 <Richard52> but i toggled it on
21:06:55 <Richard52> what does "gm" folder contain?
21:07:31 <Richard52> Does lang files contain town names?
21:07:33 *** Lakie` is now known as Lakie
21:07:47 <Richard52> where are they by defaukt?
21:08:15 * Alberth thinks in game options
21:08:29 <Yexo> the default list of town names are encoded directly in the game, you can't change them
21:08:32 <Yexo> there are no files for those
21:08:34 <Richard52> where i can get it?
21:08:56 <Yexo> all town name grfs are in the data/ directory (or downloaded_content/data/)
21:08:56 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
21:10:37 * andythenorth has had a sad evening waiting for a tow truck :(
21:11:27 * Eddi|zuHause has problems keeping a HEQS-related joke to himself
21:11:49 <andythenorth> it will help relieve my sadness
21:12:10 <andythenorth> I think there are going to be downsides to owning the only model of a certain vehicle in the whole uk :P
21:12:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Richard52: the high score table
21:12:53 <Richard52> i have found file russian2w.grf
21:13:15 <Yexo> you can't edit a grf file with a text editor
21:14:10 <Alberth> happy weekend Belugas
21:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, i was just discussing with supermop how i could really use a forklift-kind of vehicle right now. to boost rating at a transfer station
21:14:35 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: such a thing is possible
21:14:40 <andythenorth> maybe not wise, but possible
21:15:06 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't the low speed of such a forklift vehicle be a disadvantage for the ratings?
21:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: no, anything below 80km/h is irrelevant, afaik
21:15:25 <planetmaker> :-D high-speed forklift ;-)
21:15:40 <Yexo> well, if you don't have a vehicle above 80km/h available, you're right
21:15:55 <andythenorth> I have a vehicle in my garage that now goes 0mph
21:16:01 <andythenorth> I suspect a shredded gearbox
21:16:08 <andythenorth> I will now have to import spares from India :(
21:16:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: no, my freight trains won't be going beyond 80km/h for a long time... most go 50km/h
21:17:02 <andythenorth> on the downside my vehicle is unique in the UK. On the upside there are about 1m of them in India
21:17:16 <Yexo> that is one of the biggest disadvantages of the current station rating, that the vehicle speed is taken into account
21:17:29 <andythenorth> that explains a lot in my games :)
21:17:55 <Yexo> any cargo newgrf can change it
21:18:02 <Yexo> (yes, I'm hinting at firs :p)
21:18:08 <andythenorth> maybe a ticket...
21:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> my biggest problem with rating is that it drops drastically if there's no vehicle for a few days
21:19:10 <Eddi|zuHause> anything <30 days should keep the rating above 50%
21:19:29 <Yexo> that too, but I always work around that by always having a vehicle on full-load in the station
21:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but full load and timetables are not compatible
21:20:21 <Yexo> I never use timetables, so that's not a problem for me
21:22:19 <Richard52> I have found russian pack 1.1.0 WITH RUSSIAN TOWN NAMES! It's over 7.5 thousands!
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21:24:40 <Richard52> It is 1:24 in Russia now
21:24:49 <Yexo> you're welcome, I'm glad you found a working version
21:24:55 <Richard52> It is better to get in bed.
21:25:04 <Richard52> You are awesome, community
21:25:31 <Richard52> OpenTTD - one of best games ever
21:25:50 <Richard52> (but i wtill have problems because i am newbie)
21:26:08 <Yexo> you can pop in anytime to ask questions
21:26:44 <Ruudjah> what's the most developed admin interface for ottd?
21:26:50 <Richard52> Sometimes I need google translate.
21:27:00 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
21:27:06 <Richard52> This is the reason I am looking for russian community.
21:29:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what capacity for a forklift?
21:31:32 <planetmaker> at least it gives you a java client which connects out of the box.
21:32:01 <planetmaker> But it does not actually do much. It has a (separate) PW change plugin but nothing more
21:35:51 <supermop> i also still lobby for the little 3 wheel fish market thing
21:36:20 <supermop> would need a slower loding speed as the guy has to put the box on the back himself
21:36:41 * andythenorth needs some feedback on new CHIPS
21:36:49 <supermop> and high running cost due to drunk tourists stealing them for joyrides
21:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... cargodist is horribly confused by my vehicle that loads and unloads at the same station...
21:40:39 <supermop> goes out of service at end of line?
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21:43:57 <Richard52> i am back, from client
21:44:19 <Richard52> yexo, omg, you are developer
21:44:48 <Yexo> yes, as are several other people in this channel :)
21:45:03 <Alberth> they walk around freely here :)
21:45:06 <Richard52> So active developers
21:45:06 <supermop> Andy, did you bring a vehicle home with you as a souvenir?
21:45:26 <andythenorth> supermop: today I bought a vehicle home on a truck
21:45:32 <andythenorth> with flashing lights
21:45:43 <andythenorth> it was very dull, and is going to be expensive :P
21:45:51 <Richard52> Developers, do you know about russian guy, who is developing 3D mode for OpenTTD?
21:46:02 <Yexo> I don't know of any 3D mode for OpenTTD
21:46:11 <supermop> if its the thing you showed me the other day, are they even legal in the uk?
21:46:29 <andythenorth> it's a grey area :P
21:46:38 <supermop> looked like a tuk tuk thing from thailand
21:46:41 <andythenorth> I have a certificate saying it's legal
21:47:01 <andythenorth> that comes up soon, dunno if it will pass
21:47:25 <supermop> i really like japanese kei cars, but they are essentially illegal here
21:47:44 <supermop> some really old ones get grandfathered in
21:48:13 <Richard52> Are you watching picture?
21:49:02 <andythenorth> supermop: wagon r is legal in uk
21:49:31 <Yexo> Richard52: it seems outdated and unfinished
21:49:39 * andythenorth should go to sleep
21:49:51 <Alberth> there are several such attempts Richard52
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21:50:08 <Richard52> He said, what he is annoyed doing it.
21:50:19 <Richard52> By the way, say, it is cool
21:51:41 <Yexo> unfortunately there is no chance at all that it will work correctly with current newgrf sets
21:51:54 <Yexo> which means by changing to 3d you disable a huge amount of custom content
21:52:53 <Yexo> which is probably point 3 of his complains: "in-game graphics are not separated from the logic of places. " (that's from an automatic translation of the page)
21:56:15 <Richard52> Does anyone know about bux.to?
21:57:19 <Richard52> When i will have money, i will give it to YOU
21:57:41 <Yexo> it's a useless system that requires manual work every day
21:58:06 <Yexo> they say they'll pay you 0.01$ for every site you view or so
21:58:13 <Yexo> my time is worth more than that
21:58:13 <Richard52> I have Milticlicker. It clicks automatically.
21:58:35 <Richard52> I launch it and do everything
21:58:50 <Richard52> it can click more, than 1 profile
21:58:53 <Yexo> do whatever you want, I won't join something like that
21:58:57 <Richard52> i already have 17 dollars
21:59:19 <Richard52> it does not require risk and money
21:59:38 <Zuu> My work sounds more fun than that.
21:59:38 <Richard52> if i will get money, i will give all of $50 to developers of OTTD
22:00:18 <Zuu> But good luck if that is what you like to do.
22:00:33 <Richard52> This is addictive job
22:00:41 <Yexo> Richard52: I develop for openttd because I find it fun, not to earn money
22:00:51 <Yexo> all donations for openttd are used for the website / hosting the content etc.
22:00:56 <Richard52> You guys are awesome
22:01:13 <Richard52> i want to support your developing
22:01:21 <Zuu> If devs would get say $100/hour OpenTTD would have cost a hell lot of money to make.
22:01:54 <Richard52> How much money do you get per month by donates?
22:02:13 <Zuu> But donates towards the servers are probably still welcome.
22:02:16 <Alberth> just enough to pay the bill for the server / hosting
22:02:17 <Yexo> more than enough to pay for hosting costs
22:02:54 <Zuu> Then maybe a donation towards tt-forums is of higher usage.
22:03:07 <Richard52> his nickname is Nickware
22:03:29 <Alberth> Zuu: good point, tt-forums tends to be forgotten
22:03:30 <Richard52> He made a program, which optimizes computers
22:03:55 <Richard52> but he lives in Saint-Petersburg, Russian
22:04:05 <Richard52> There is problems with money
22:04:07 <Yexo> Richard52: if you want to help: advertise the game among your friends, help them with any questions they might have, perhaps help with translating the wiki
22:04:16 <Yexo> there are lots of ways to help that don't cost money at all
22:04:23 <Richard52> This is the reason why he made his tool non-freeware
22:04:43 <Richard52> i will translate the wiki
22:05:01 <Richard52> Yexo, where are you from?
22:05:32 <Yexo> george, but he's not often on irc
22:05:46 <Richard52> He is official developer?
22:05:54 <Yexo> no, he's made the ECS grfs
22:06:02 <Ruudjah> Richard52: what's rukoprikladyvayuschegosya and gustozameshanny?
22:06:12 <Zuu> no, a list of official devs you find in the readme.txt
22:07:58 <Yexo> I have to get up very early tomorrow, so goodnight from me too
22:08:35 <Richard52> rukoprikladyvauschegosya - hand appluing
22:09:29 <Richard52> Ruudjah: gustozameschanny - tangled
22:09:42 <Ruudjah> that clears things up
22:12:11 <Richard52> Where can i get WYSIWYG for wiki?
22:13:02 <Zuu> Except for tables, there arn't much complicated codes.
22:13:10 <Richard52> It is not very comfortable for me to edit code.
22:13:48 <Zuu> You will probably do more harm if you use a WYSIWYG than editing the code directly.
22:14:05 <Ruudjah> ^^ such remarks infuriate me endlessly
22:15:02 <Zuu> But then, I always write my HTML/CSS code line by line instead of using a point-and-click program. :-)
22:15:18 <Ruudjah> It's #1 reason why I enthusastically start editing wiki's, then after 15 minutes I'm like "fraq it, this sucks, I'm constantly looking things up, and get distracted of actually editing"
22:16:02 <Ruudjah> instead of being busy with actual writing, I'm busy wasting braincycles on getting layout right
22:16:28 <Zuu> Usually I only need to know how to write headlines and how to make links. More than that is mostly not needed to edit a wiki page.
22:16:58 <Ruudjah> edit -> preview -> correct -> edit -> preview correct
22:17:22 <Ruudjah> "oh wait I forgot to add this thing I just came up with"
22:17:36 <Zuu> Sounds like yoo have too high ambitions about layouting in a wiki :-)
22:18:46 <Ruudjah> go to upload image page, upload image, wait for 3 postbacks to return, lookup the wiki dsl how to actually add image (which is off course different on each wiki)
22:19:35 <Ruudjah> edit->preview->correct->preview->resize->preview->layout on correct place of page->preview->syntax error->correct->preview
22:20:14 <Ruudjah> I edited a few pages on ottd wiki, which I do about every year to conclude its too cumbersome
22:20:29 <Ruudjah> then need another year to build up the enthusiasm again
22:21:16 <Ruudjah> So I researched what needs to be done to write a decent wysiwyg editor for mediawiki
22:22:19 <Ruudjah> conclusion: the mediawiki markup is such a big mess, you can';t even write a parser because there's this part of MW which is buildup usong all kinds of regexes which define the MW parsing
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22:22:55 <Ruudjah> So in order to have decent wysiwyg editors, the MW markup needs to be changed first. Which is hell, since it must be translated at once
22:23:07 <Zuu> Regular expressions are really useful when you learn how to use them.
22:23:14 <Ruudjah> I got dragged away here
22:24:43 <Zuu> I personally don't se a big issue that you have to preview your page to check your code. After all that is very similar to most how development work. But then I'm probably more a programmer type of person.
22:25:19 <Ruudjah> So all the current wysiwyg editors are half assed editors restricted to making text bold, adding an alinea, basic stuff really, which can;t be extended to say adding templates because it would just make the mess 20 worse
22:26:07 <Ruudjah> the primary reason jimmy wales said no wysiwyg editor before 2013
22:27:33 <Zuu> <Ruudjah> So all the current wysiwyg editors are half assed editors restricted to making text bold, adding an alinea, basic stuff really, which can;t be extended to say adding templates because it would just make the mess 20 worse <--- Exactly my reason for why recommending sticking to the code. Less risk of messing up.
22:27:50 <Ruudjah> The problem is: the wiki editors make me meta-think
22:28:17 <Ruudjah> I want to think on the subject only, not be distracted on the "how"
22:28:19 <Zuu> Most wysiwyg-editors in web-development tend to mess up the code and make it hard to use for manual code edits.
22:29:06 <Ruudjah> Which is exactly the reason why the development of the new markup is so hard; It must be human and machine readable
22:29:53 <Ruudjah> because all the old MW editors don't like wysiwyg (afraid for change, or dont want to learn/change habits), which is fair, but postpones proper editors for the coming years
22:30:04 <Ruudjah> editors -> I mean humans
22:39:19 <Wolf01> I think is better to understand the basic first, or it will happen like with MS Frontpage: a lot of people making web pages whose source was unreadable by a *standard* browser and by humans
22:40:35 <Wolf01> WYSIWYG is cool, but without basics (not WYSISYG) you can't understand where to put your hands if there is something you can't get with a WYSIWYG editor
22:40:53 <Ruudjah> You are being very rude to people
22:41:47 <Ruudjah> You ask average humans to learn a language to just edit a document
22:42:43 <Ruudjah> would be somthing if MS Office, when you opened it, showed a message: "To use this program, please first learn the way the document is actually stored to disk"
22:42:58 <Ruudjah> (dont take my remark about rude to serious)
22:43:53 <Wolf01> I had to help peoples to change an ASP site code because they wanted to modify something using some WYSIWYG editor and they didn't understand how ASP worked, they only focused on the output
22:46:51 <Wolf01> <Ruudjah> would be somthing if MS Office, when you opened it, showed a message: "To use this program, please first learn the way the document is actually stored to disk" <- no, but I think is better that you at least learnt the way to align a title without using spaces or how to use tabs
22:48:22 <Wolf01> I don't want to get people to learn PHP just to modify a wiki, but they can learn how to make titles and links, it's 5 minutes of their time wasted for something useful
22:49:34 <Wolf01> WYSIWYG editors (especially bad ones) tend to use unneeded informations, such [[This is a link|This is a link]] instead of just [[This is a link]]
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