IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-03-18
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00:00:27 <confound> does heqs expect "realistic road vehicle acceleration" on?
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00:09:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if the values for that are actually balanced...
00:35:43 <supermop> this train is coming in at 65 minutes for a complete run
00:35:58 <supermop> every other train on the line is a multiple of 30
00:36:18 <supermop> I cannot shave off any more time
00:36:29 <supermop> so i will just have to have it lay up for 25 minutes
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00:38:31 <supermop> and neither of its termini have the extra platforms for that
00:39:54 <confound> Eddi|zuHause: that makes sense of how terrible things seem with it on :)
00:41:02 <Eddi|zuHause> might want to discusss that in the thread
00:41:34 <supermop> i guess i could bump it to 75, and see how i can make that fit
00:41:40 <confound> well, I don't normally play with it on anyway eddi
00:42:12 <confound> in which case the heqs stuff is really good
00:42:34 <Eddi|zuHause> confound: still needs fixing, though.
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00:43:44 <confound> I guess. I try to avoid bringing up problems that don't affect me and for which I have no useful suggestions :)
02:44:35 <ZackG> is it just me or I cant add grfs to a scenario
02:44:45 <ZackG> im using the new 1.1.0 RC2
02:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, this feature has been removed, because it caused too many issues
02:47:29 <ZackG> that means that I cant create a scenario with grfs?
02:47:48 <DanMacK> One should be able to add grfs in the scenario editor
02:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you can, but you need to set up the grfs from the main menu first
02:48:39 <ZackG> what beta revison did this ngrf system change
02:48:47 <ZackG> ill look at the changes system
02:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> just once you started the scenario editor, you can't change them anymore
02:49:08 <DanMacK> It's the same one that prevents one from changing the climate icons on the main screen
02:49:37 <ZackG> what I mean is that revision did this occur
02:49:49 <Eddi|zuHause> DanMacK: that has a completely different reason
02:50:34 <ZackG> whats dumb is that I cant open scns tha thave missing grfs
02:51:49 <DanMacK> Eddi, I still think it's annoying because some people can't RTFM
02:51:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not retarded, because grfs are such a fundamental part of the game that changing or removing them can cause too much damage
02:52:50 <ZackG> Dan are you saying that I cant read?
02:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> there are some grfs out there that are practically unusable because the author added and removed lots of grfs during the creation process
02:54:30 <Eddi|zuHause> some scenarios, i mean
02:55:20 <DanMacK> No, I'm saying that the changes were mainly done because people swap out grfs when they don't know what they;re doing and complain about it, when readingt he manual would have prevented that
02:56:36 <ZackG> are you saying that I cant read
02:58:06 <DanMacK> no, I'm saying that the people that mixed grfs and complained about the results can't read
02:59:14 <DanMacK> Question, if I have a scenario active as my title screen with a newgrf, can I change the climate tile, or do I have to manually change my main grf?
03:00:18 <ZackG> bt what im wondering is how to get fertilizer using Pikka's ECS agriculture
03:00:27 <DanMacK> The Mars grf used to change the toyland climate icon, now it doesn't
03:00:27 <ZackG> and his machinary vector is not downloadable
03:00:34 <DanMacK> ECS isn't Pikka's, it's George's
03:00:35 <ZackG> so I cant load the southeast US scenario
03:00:49 <ZackG> I thought it was pikkas
03:01:06 <ZackG> how do I get fertilizer
03:01:16 <ZackG> and I cant download the machinary vector
03:01:24 <DanMacK> Look on George's site
03:01:25 <ZackG> from thettd content window
03:01:55 <ZackG> he never told me george's website
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10:46:39 <pikka> you're all sillier than a scuddles in springtime
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11:44:01 <Ammler> the not translated translation wiki pages are nice, now you get 3 wiki pages with same content, the only difference is the title
11:44:23 <Ammler> (if you search for something
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11:48:07 <planetmaker> hm, last edit by "Yexo_bot" (Update inter-language links) ?
11:50:08 <Ammler> planetmaker: last "real" update at october 2010
11:50:54 <planetmaker> I just wondered about that nick name. Might be real. Is it your wiki link clean up bot, Yexo ?
11:52:13 <Ammler> well, there was no real update at all, just the copy from default to ru
11:55:42 <planetmaker> I know. That's why I asked ;-)
12:09:41 <Yexo> planetmaker: yes, that is my bot
12:10:12 <planetmaker> I didn't know such thing existed
12:11:02 <planetmaker> is it running on a server to automatically do these edits?
12:11:12 <Yexo> no, it runs locally on my computer
12:11:17 <Yexo> I have to start it manually
12:11:31 <Yexo> Ammler: edit the page and add this to the content: {{Delete|my reason|~~~~}}
12:12:05 <planetmaker> It's IMHO a very good idea to run such bot which updates language settings and changes deprecated categories.
12:12:36 <planetmaker> It could be done automatically when run on a server. If you like, feel free to setup on the Devzone
12:12:40 <Yexo> the code is hacked together, it works, but I don't trust it enough to run it automatically
12:13:01 <Yexo> I also confirm every edit manually
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12:15:15 <Yexo> if you do find any deprecated categories or any updates that could be done automatically, please let me know
12:20:05 <Ammler> Yexo: maybe you can also search for translation pages, which have 0% progress and exists already for some months
12:20:29 <Ammler> would suprise me, if the page I mentioned is the only one :-)
12:20:39 <Yexo> it's certainly not, I've seen more like that
12:20:56 <Yexo> however it's hard to detect automatically as the template at the top is not reliable
12:21:08 <Yexo> and comparing the text with the english page doesn't work either, the english page could've been updated
12:21:24 <Ammler> another reason, such pages should not exist
12:21:39 <Yexo> agreed, but when to remove them?
12:21:50 <Ammler> those people should start copying, when they also think to translate something
12:21:58 <Yexo> I'm certain there is one translator that creates such pages on his computer so he can more easily translate them later on his mobile device
12:22:40 <Ammler> maybe ask this quy then
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12:24:12 <Ammler> I found the page just by accident, as I searched for a english term
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12:27:46 <Ammler> does the openttd translation have a size limit per string?
12:29:08 <planetmaker> not really. But it has a pain-in-the-ass interface for long strings
12:29:12 <Yexo> on the wiki? no, they're just normal wiki pages
12:30:40 <Ammler> well, I meant to add the readme to webtranslator, IMO the most important untranslated content :-)
12:31:13 <Yexo> that's not a good idea, the webtranslator was never meant for strings longer than a single line
12:31:50 <planetmaker> ^ that sentence is about the length which can be comfortably translated
12:32:29 <Ammler> so splitting the readme to strings per line? :-P
12:32:46 <Yexo> doesn't work, when translating a text you should be translating a text, not single lines of that text
12:32:51 <planetmaker> Not feasible. A readme is a text and you don't translate it even sentence by sentence.
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13:35:14 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: yexo * r22258 /trunk/src/ (strings.cpp strings_func.h townname.cpp): -Codechange: introduce a wrapper class to clean up the arguments to FormatString
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16:51:03 <sbound> got a q I'm hoping someone can answer
16:51:27 <sbound> my cities keep shrinking and it's getting on my nerves..
16:51:39 <sbound> seed tile is not covered, 5+ stations/month etc etc
16:52:11 <sbound> when I started playing, this one city had 250 inhabitants
16:52:38 <sbound> at 68k, I had time to expand extensively
16:52:44 <sbound> with stations and so forth
16:52:52 <sbound> the city has like 100+ different stations now
16:53:02 <sbound> yet the population is at 48k now
16:55:13 <sbound> 2 for pax and 1 for cargo
16:55:36 <supermop> at that size maybe random fluctuations in house types could account for that difference
16:55:54 <supermop> personally I have never grown a city beyond about 35
16:56:28 <supermop> i have heard of 100k cities,
16:56:37 <sbound> yeah I had one 105k city once
16:56:37 <supermop> it doesnt really interest me
16:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the largest cities i heard of had 3M and 1M inhabitants
16:56:47 <sbound> it started out at 200 inhabitants or so
16:56:53 <supermop> i usually preffer to keep mine somewhat checked
16:57:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but that was not with the default houses
16:57:01 <Yexo> sbound: have you maybe deleted some roads near the center of your town?
16:57:10 <sbound> I eventually reached 105k and then it declined and kept declining until it reached 55k
16:57:12 <Yexo> a city will only expand along towns starting from it's center
16:57:23 <sbound> it's all properly connected
16:57:30 <supermop> and make up large urban areas out of a city and many separate suburbs
16:57:31 <sbound> seed tile is not covered either
16:57:39 <Yexo> having more than 5 stations doesn't help, although it's no problem either
16:57:48 <Yexo> seed tile should be road, doesn't matter if it's covered or not
16:57:55 <sbound> yep that's what I meant
16:58:06 <sbound> going in four directions
16:58:34 <sbound> there is one thing I haven't tried yet though
16:58:46 <sbound> there are four tunnels under the city
16:58:48 <sbound> just left of the seed tile
16:58:53 <sbound> but that shouldn't matter right?
16:59:25 <sbound> it's always like this when I play
16:59:33 <sbound> 5 stations and the city grows well
16:59:42 <sbound> then when I expand, the city keeps growing
16:59:45 <sbound> but after a while, it stops
16:59:57 <sbound> and from there, it's one way... down
17:00:22 <sbound> it was 48k just before
17:00:54 <sbound> I have another city nearby, New Haven
17:01:08 <sbound> it was 200 not long ago
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19:12:55 * andythenorth is no longer sitting on his arse in Bombay
19:13:03 <andythenorth> and is back in the exciting world of work
19:15:11 <andythenorth> "Why is it that FIRS makes it really really expensive to fund new buildings in towns and new towns? This makes it really hard to grow a town for profitable passenger operations or to make a town big enough to plop certain industries in town."
19:15:24 <andythenorth> ^ presumably that's a side effect of me screwing with base costs?
19:22:13 <Terkhen> andythenorth: if you are changing the funding industries basecost, you should also set the other costs changed by it to their default values
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19:33:10 <DanMacK> Back from Hot India to wet England?
19:36:45 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: frosch * r22259 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix (r9779)[FS#4557]: Remove duplicate and wrong (too early) activation of new game settings. (chillcore)
19:37:24 <andythenorth> ever thought of drawing stations?
19:39:45 <DanMacK> What sort of stations
19:42:09 <andythenorth> DanMacK: mostly freight cargos I guess
19:42:16 <andythenorth> I've drawn some that suck :P
19:42:34 * DanMacK can do passenger stations, cargo... never tried
19:42:45 <andythenorth> it's mostly improved mineral cargos
19:42:56 <andythenorth> I should stop trying to pass the buck and just fix them :P
19:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> someone should fix ISR (and possibly amend the specs) so that piles show depending on cargo throughput and not just currently waiting cargo
19:45:24 <Eddi|zuHause> because regularly serviced stations, and especially dropoff stations are completely empty
19:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> which defeats the point of beautiful cargo piles
19:46:21 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: change ottd
19:47:02 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I would find it weird if cargo shown didn't correspond to cargo waiting
19:47:07 <andythenorth> it's non-intuitive :P
19:47:25 <frosch123> '"loading stages" are one of the most fundamental part of stations (i.e. they are done in the basic action2). it would be silly to work around that in every grf
19:47:52 <andythenorth> 'add an advanced option' ®
19:56:37 <Eddi|zuHause> something like "Visual effect of cargo amount at stations: {total waiting cargo|waiting cargo per tile|total cargo througput|cargo throughput per tile}"?
19:57:24 <andythenorth> could we perhaps make it more complicated?
19:57:33 <andythenorth> so that it's harder for newgrf authors to test stuff?
19:57:51 <andythenorth> this only complicates bug reports etc by a factor of 2 :)
19:57:52 <Alberth> add some scaling factor
19:57:55 <andythenorth> or maybe even only 1.5
19:58:16 <andythenorth> why not find a setting that makes bug reports etc *exponentially* difficult?
19:58:27 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: newgrfs already have a flat per tile vs. total
19:58:46 * Alberth throws in some self-adapting amount of displayed cargo based on historic data
19:59:02 <andythenorth> possibly in some averaging way that isn't 100% deterministic?
19:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so this flag could be extended to also toggle waiting/throughput?
19:59:30 <Alberth> andythenorth: I like that random factor, let's keep it :)
19:59:48 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i guess throughput is nowhere stored currently
20:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that is a different point ;)
20:00:08 <andythenorth> don't just make it per calendar month
20:00:27 <andythenorth> per calendar month, per 30 days, per n-day user-specified rolling average
20:00:34 <Eddi|zuHause> afair there's an unimplemented variable that lets houses check whether a nearby station accepted a certain cargo last month
20:00:42 <planetmaker> but throughput would be nice for cargo display ;-)
20:00:47 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: but there is already some ttdp-only thing for cargo history
20:01:06 <Alberth> planetmaker: how to display? by fast moving cargo or so?
20:01:11 <frosch123> but it had only some bools, no amount
20:01:28 <andythenorth> throughput should be indicated by animation :P
20:01:44 * andythenorth is now actually being serious and not pissing about
20:01:46 <planetmaker> Alberth: no, but to show the amount of displayed cargo based on that amount. Whether to animate that or not... I don't care too much
20:02:03 <planetmaker> I'm always a bit sad that all the nice cargo display is basically empty when I'm doing a good job as company
20:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that was exactly my point
20:02:49 <Alberth> stations should delay some cargo a bit some times
20:03:10 <Alberth> eg at 12:00 when they have lunch
20:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so: TODO: 1) add throughput statistics to stations, 2) implement missing variables, 2a) add appropriate flag, 3) adjust ISR
20:05:16 <andythenorth> 4. let all newgrf authors discover this change by users reporting bugs to them
20:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> statistics as in "cargo this month" and "cargo last month"
20:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly also sparated by incoming/outgoing
20:11:01 * andythenorth is stuck with FIRS quarry station
20:11:12 <andythenorth> ^ maybe that will help
20:13:27 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i suddenly have a craving for choclate-covered nuts?
20:13:53 <andythenorth> maybe that's the FIRS cargo I could around about 1990
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20:19:31 <Alberth> I thought you didn't do toyland :)
20:20:28 <andythenorth> I have drawn myself into a frustrating corner with FIRS quarries
20:20:35 <andythenorth> wrt to making stations that match them :(
20:21:59 <DanMacK> How so Andy... do you have any images of what you've got so far?
20:29:18 <andythenorth> I probably need to modify the quarry fences
20:29:27 <andythenorth> as well as figure out better station tiles
20:29:59 <DanMacK> I'd go with the same texture as the darker sloped wall of the quarry for the track base
20:32:51 <Alberth> I would expect yellow-ish station tiles
20:33:20 <andythenorth> it has cargo graphics when cargo is waiting
20:33:45 <planetmaker> yeah, I'd expect more yellowish than the olive ones. Like yellow sand on the default ground
20:34:07 <planetmaker> with default ground showing through when no cargo waiting (just a few crumps of sand) but piles when cargo is waiting
20:34:17 <andythenorth> default ground is no-go :(
20:34:30 <planetmaker> you can't overdraw?
20:34:42 <planetmaker> I mean reference? Oh drat. Then I agree
20:34:46 <planetmaker> I thought stations could
20:35:05 <Yexo> you can, but it's hard to chose the correct groundsprite
20:35:16 <Yexo> so snow/desert/rainforest and such
20:35:21 <andythenorth> if it's similar to industries...it's a reasonable amount of checking
20:35:42 <Yexo> hmm, maybe that actually is doable
20:35:43 <planetmaker> hm, similarily hard as with other features?
20:36:03 <planetmaker> because there... what andy says
20:36:12 <planetmaker> it's a few action2s, but feasible
20:36:15 <andythenorth> canset single tile station does it
20:36:19 <planetmaker> templated it's one-time work
20:36:22 <andythenorth> FIRS quarry also does it
20:36:31 <Yexo> it's not only action2's, it's most likely also the action0
20:36:42 <andythenorth> that's what made me say 'no'
20:36:49 <planetmaker> with stations: yes. That's why I ask :-)
20:37:15 <Yexo> though stations can split the drawing of ground sprite and other sprites via general flag bit 0
20:37:23 <Yexo> with that is might be very doable
20:40:59 <andythenorth> I can offer FIRS code :P
20:41:57 <andythenorth> var 41 and 60 is used there
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20:52:58 <Yexo> andythenorth: it'll only be possibie for non-track tiles
20:53:12 <andythenorth> it's probably not worth it ;)
20:53:34 <Yexo> it's actually not so hard for non-track tiles
20:54:19 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: frosch * r22260 /branches/1.1/ (. src/genworld_gui.cpp):
20:54:19 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
20:54:19 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: - Fix: New game settings were applied to early when starting a game via a heightmap. [FS#4557] (r22259)
20:55:06 <andythenorth> Yexo: how do we assign a different class (and string) to the CHIPS tiles?
20:55:25 * Alberth wonders why the bananas FIRS 0.6.2 has 'nightly' in the tags
20:56:08 <Yexo> andythenorth: action0 prop 08 sets the class
20:57:09 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: frosch * r22261 /branches/1.1/ (11 files in 5 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare: for 1.1.0-RC3
20:58:31 <planetmaker> uhm... what do you mean with "in the tags", Alberth ?
21:00:02 <andythenorth> it's in the tags ;)
21:00:10 <andythenorth> as is 'developing'
21:00:28 <andythenorth> and 'newgrf' - which seems somewhat tautological
21:02:47 <Alberth> developing can be defended as its version number is less than 1.0 :)
21:07:15 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: frosch * r22262 /tags/1.1.0-RC3/: -Release: 1.1.0-RC3
21:40:19 <Alberth> andythenorth: should farms cluster together in 0.6.2 ?
21:45:43 <Alberth> that's all farms I have :p
21:45:57 <andythenorth> farming region :D
21:46:06 <andythenorth> looks like all types located together
21:46:41 <andythenorth> different types don't try to co-locate
21:53:01 <Alberth> the bottom one is only one type, so that seems to hold
21:53:58 <andythenorth> the effect probably just indicates genuine randomness :)
21:54:03 <andythenorth> try another map :P
21:57:03 <Alberth> in a minute, first need to fix my code :)
21:58:49 <andythenorth> flickering cargo at stations *is* annoying
21:59:36 <andythenorth> i.e. there is a brief flicker whilst a train is loading
21:59:48 <andythenorth> maybe I just set the initial display threshhold higher?
22:00:17 <Yexo> that's not trivial to do
22:01:01 <andythenorth> set 2 'little' lots, and have the first use blank sprites?
22:01:50 <Alberth> slightly better this time, reload the url :)
22:02:02 <Yexo> it'd be better to set some more 'little' sets, make the first one use empty sprites and the other sets all the same
22:02:48 <andythenorth> something is unsatisfying about cargo display
22:03:06 <andythenorth> I don't know what
22:09:52 <andythenorth> back tomorrow ;)
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23:56:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... someone forgot updating the topic
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