IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-03-17
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00:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause> small random idea: is there a GRF that has a "shunting yard" railtype? i.e. one that has a concrete track base blending in with ISR stations, for junctions etc.?
00:24:08 <Yexo> doesn't ISR have that kind of tiles?
00:24:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: it has fake switches and stuff. but i meant non-station rail. real switches, signals...
00:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> something that blends in with the station, but isn't a station
00:32:10 <confound> Eddi|zuHause: so it's possible to accidentally have a station that can deliver but not pick up cargo?
00:38:53 <supermop> i could try to make such a thing
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12:13:31 * andythenorth seeks a new FIRS cargo not available until maybe 1990s
12:14:08 <andythenorth> I shall consider it
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12:15:32 <andythenorth> the only thing I've thought of so far is windfarm components
12:15:52 <andythenorth> I ruled out asylum seekers as being a bit in bad taste
12:16:17 <pikka> and not exactly new in the 90s
12:16:37 <andythenorth> 'slaves' seems to be missing from my early games :P
12:17:01 <andythenorth> pikka: could be 2000s
12:17:11 <andythenorth> I just want something new to do at that point
12:18:36 <andythenorth> biofuels are just petrol
12:18:44 <andythenorth> uranium is possible
12:18:52 <andythenorth> but the quantities are tiny
12:19:09 <V453000> you mean it is only primary -> power plant
12:19:21 <andythenorth> and in small amounts yes
12:19:31 <pikka> and the whole waste chain
12:20:05 <V453000> why not in large amounts? do not tell me "realism" please :D
12:20:07 <pikka> drunk foreign girls asking when I get off work
12:20:16 <confound> there are enough of those to fill a train?
12:20:23 <andythenorth> pikka: is that a cargo in large or small quantities?
12:20:55 <confound> pikka: I have what might be a stupid question about ukrs2.
12:21:16 <andythenorth> I could add 'recyclables'
12:21:24 <andythenorth> which come from town to a processing plant
12:21:32 <V453000> andythenorth: cant you make any cargo a large quantity cargo just by prospecting a ton of mines?
12:21:48 <V453000> recyclables are interesting :)
12:21:59 <confound> pikka: it seems like once the 1960s hit, there's no reason not to use the AL1 and then AL6 for pretty much everything, even big coal/iron trains, because they're cheap and have huge HP. am I doing it wrong?
12:22:00 <andythenorth> it's a bit like reintroducing waste?
12:22:17 <V453000> idk, will houses produce recycling or some waste yards?
12:22:25 <andythenorth> waste yard I think
12:22:39 <andythenorth> that's what happened previously with waste chain
12:22:44 <andythenorth> it was mucho boring though
12:23:10 <V453000> although I would make such yards directly inside cities just like the pumps/shops
12:23:22 <andythenorth> previously there was a 'waste collection point' in towns
12:23:28 <andythenorth> with quite low production
12:23:31 <andythenorth> and quite a lot of them
12:23:32 <V453000> and as banks, 1 yard per ... 1000 population?
12:23:54 <andythenorth> it could be that stores / petrol stations produce recyclables after a certain date
12:24:40 <V453000> I think we could "say" that stores/petrol stations throw it to the dustbins and from there it is taken to junk yards "itself" :)
12:25:05 <V453000> store sells, does not really produce anythinng actually
12:25:10 <andythenorth> currently the recycling plant exists, but is not in 0.6.x
12:25:23 <andythenorth> it is just a primary producing scrap metal / manufacturing supplies
12:25:31 <andythenorth> but maybe it should accept recyclables
12:25:41 <V453000> yes, that would fit nicely :)
12:25:50 <V453000> although there would be one bad thing
12:25:52 <andythenorth> would junk yard produce recyclables?
12:26:03 <V453000> you would get manufacturing supplies from goods/food basically
12:26:22 <V453000> but well, that is far better than if you got them from anything else
12:26:40 <andythenorth> the store could produce independent of what's delivered
12:26:43 <V453000> yes, junk yard (recyclables) -> recycling plant
12:27:16 <Chris_Booth> junk would be nice
12:27:29 <Chris_Booth> and waste would be nice from industries
12:27:35 <V453000> nah, stores should just accept imo... I think making a new industry - junk yard - dependant on city population instead of any relation to the goods/food drop
12:28:19 <Chris_Booth> you could make to store dependent on city size
12:28:31 <Chris_Booth> 1000 pop = 1 store
12:28:37 <Chris_Booth> 10000 = large store
12:29:12 <V453000> store? you mean junk yard? :)
12:29:20 <Chris_Booth> and things like power plant and steel mills could create junk aswell
12:29:35 <V453000> that would be kind of over-combinating imo
12:29:46 <andythenorth> been there, done that :P
12:30:14 <Chris_Booth> junk yard should replace scrap metal place
12:30:17 <andythenorth> something else that was suggested - make current junk yard production depend on town population, not supplies
12:30:24 <andythenorth> there are problems with that though
12:31:03 <V453000> just make a junk yard per 1000 pop
12:31:45 <Chris_Booth> thats agreed then
12:32:01 <Chris_Booth> a day for the history books
12:32:07 <Chris_Booth> the day me and V453000 agree
12:32:40 <Chris_Booth> another thing is the products junk yards would make
12:32:58 <Chris_Booth> like scrap metal and broken glass and used plastics
12:33:36 <andythenorth> current junk yard - unchanged -> scrap metal
12:34:03 <andythenorth> new industry: recycling point -> recyclables -> recycling plant -> manufacturing supplies
12:34:19 <andythenorth> and maybe scrap metal
12:34:51 <andythenorth> how about a different cargo
12:34:55 <andythenorth> 'internet shopping' :P
12:35:41 <Chris_Booth> andythenorth you need to change the glass chain, to include recycled glass
12:36:16 <Chris_Booth> but what am I saying I love FIRS as it is
12:36:48 <andythenorth> I am only looking for small changes at this stage
12:37:01 <andythenorth> I need something new from around 1990s...
12:37:11 <Chris_Booth> Fish farms need to be fixed IMO
12:37:18 <andythenorth> in what respects?
12:37:20 <Chris_Booth> since they just die out
12:37:25 <V453000> hm, 3 new cargoes? :D paper/glass/plastics for recycling ... hmm :)
12:37:27 <Chris_Booth> they don't need supplies
12:37:43 <Chris_Booth> but they just die
12:38:03 <V453000> they will not grow over 45t/month though
12:38:09 <Chris_Booth> you serviced them last game V453000, and they died
12:38:25 <andythenorth> there may well be a bug with them
12:38:33 <andythenorth> you two might be further confirming it ;)
12:38:52 <V453000> then that probably is the case
12:39:17 <Chris_Booth> I tryed them in an SP game and they died
12:39:47 <Chris_Booth> not sure if they need passenger to survive but if they need passengers the window should say
12:39:56 <Chris_Booth> or they should take farm supplies
12:40:17 <andythenorth> they shouldn't need anything to survive
12:40:21 <V453000> fishing grounds? you do not feed the fish :p
12:40:26 <andythenorth> it's just missing code :P
12:41:06 <Chris_Booth> I don't care about max production, but they should behave like the scrap metal shain
12:42:06 <Chris_Booth> isn't it also nice that finally we have an industry set the is playable
12:42:13 <Chris_Booth> apart from standard set
12:44:21 <V453000> we still miss the supplying mechanism, andythenorth :P
12:44:45 <andythenorth> I have two preferred routes at the moment
12:44:50 <andythenorth> (1) no change - easiest
12:45:03 <andythenorth> (2) higher production levels => more supplies needed for further boost
12:45:23 <V453000> I kind of agree with 2 :p
12:45:26 <andythenorth> my only objection to (2) is that it makes the readme / industry window strings very complicated
12:45:28 <Chris_Booth> yes, that could be good
12:46:00 <Chris_Booth> 1 and 2 would be good if parameters where used to swap between them
12:46:17 <andythenorth> Chris_Booth: there are already too many parameters affecting the supply code
12:46:20 <andythenorth> it's hard to debug
12:46:28 <andythenorth> and may indeed already have bugs in 0.6.2
12:46:36 <Chris_Booth> but just have supply 1 supply per month
12:46:47 <Chris_Booth> shouldn't allow max production
12:46:53 <Chris_Booth> which it does at the moment
12:47:16 <V453000> Chris_Booth: see the issue I linked to :P I think that would cover it pretty well
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12:51:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i think some kind of high-tech chain (sand->wafers->chips->goods)?
12:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you think, andythenorth?
12:54:51 <confound> that's an interesting idea. I was stuck on thinking of "electronics" separating from "goods" or something
12:55:49 <V453000> I think that it just adds a cargo like "one of many" but the recyclables add a differently working one, which is far more interesting
12:59:49 <planetmaker> hm, sounds like an interesting industry chain for late 20th, early 21st century indeed :-)
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15:14:41 <supermop> how are you planetmaker?
15:14:50 <supermop> made any new planets lately?
15:15:03 <V453000> hm, why do I get the feeling like at least 10% of the chat here are greetings? :D
15:18:49 <planetmaker> I'm trying hard, supermop ;-)
15:19:34 <V453000> hello, Apfelsaft Drinker :P
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15:27:55 <V453000> hi ProperBeverage Drinker :P
15:28:05 <planetmaker> heya the whole crowd, I'd say :-)
15:28:20 <V453000> planermaker: we are no crowd! :P
15:28:28 <supermop> I feel like i haven't done anything on my grf in a long time
15:32:02 <planetmaker> very very bad. ALL other people have written 5 newgrfs within that time :-P
15:32:27 <andythenorth> at least 99 grfs
15:32:28 <planetmaker> I want my money back. Oh well...
15:32:49 <supermop> i did play a bit of a patchpack game on the airplane monday and yesterday though
15:35:15 <supermop> so i will count that as 'playtesting' my grfs
15:46:31 <planetmaker> there are people who play the game?
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15:55:23 <Terkhen> hmmm... lately I have spent more time playing than coding
15:56:33 <planetmaker> maybe "it's done" ;-)
15:59:09 <andythenorth> is it bollocks :P
15:59:28 <andythenorth> I could find at least 99 things to do :)
16:00:38 <andythenorth> wrt gameplay, the biggest thing I miss is more interesting town growth
16:00:43 <Terkhen> I have a few projects to finish too, but I'm stuck in the "ugly" parts :P
16:01:20 <andythenorth> I am stuck in bug-fix-no-motivation land with FIRS
16:01:31 <andythenorth> and my attempt at roadtypes is thoroughly stuck
16:02:52 <Terkhen> I should finish my scenario queue, but I have the feeling that I'm missing the big picture with my current implementation
16:03:24 <andythenorth> what is a scenario queue?
16:03:58 <Terkhen> I meant a patch queue, the plan is to strip a scenario of everything NewGRF related and allow to restart it with a different choice of NewGRFs
16:05:42 <Terkhen> I still think that it should allow to save the stripped scenario somehow, so it can be distributed without all users needing to strip it first
16:07:17 <supermop> what's got you stuck with roadtypes, andy?
16:27:51 <andythenorth> simply that I'm way out of my depth
16:28:15 <andythenorth> I understand neither the game architecture, nor the programming language
16:28:51 <andythenorth> either of those on its own would be less troubling
16:32:51 <peter1138> Did I ever publish my old code?
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16:35:47 <Terkhen> I don't remember seeing any roadtypes code besides the old repo at hg.openttd.org
16:36:14 <andythenorth> peter1138: I don't remember seeing it
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16:39:10 <Terkhen> that repo seems to be dead anyways
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19:05:58 <flitz> hi, just out of curiosity, in the source code there are many calls to Window::CreateNestedTree(int) but there is only a definition of Window::CreateNestedTree(int, bool), is there something I don't know about ?
19:06:56 <frosch123> the bool as a default argument
19:07:45 <SmatZ> void CreateNestedTree(const WindowDesc *desc, bool fill_nested = true);
19:08:04 <SmatZ> also, that's the reason why I don't like default arguments, or overloading
19:08:16 <SmatZ> searching for the definition is complicated
19:08:18 <flitz> hm, I was thinking of that but when making a small test example of that case it gave me a compiler error
19:08:37 <flitz> I just looked through the files with cat and grep and found the window.cpp for the definition
19:08:53 <frosch123> important is the .h :)
19:09:48 <frosch123> SmatZ: what are you doing instead? one-line wrapper functions with slightly different names?
19:09:49 <flitz> there is no window.h ;)
19:10:05 <frosch123> that would make it imo a lot more harder to find usages of a function
19:10:22 <flitz> SmatZ: worked with g++, for some reason I was using gcc before and that gave me the error, thanks
19:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause> flitz: it doesn't matter what it's called
19:10:51 <frosch123> flitz: window_gui.h
19:11:06 <SmatZ> if the name of original function is "function()", and name of derivates is "function_Tile()", "function_Bool()", it's enough to grep for "function"
19:11:19 <SmatZ> but yes, your argument is valid
19:11:54 <SmatZ> flitz: gcc should determine the type by file extension
19:12:41 <frosch123> alluke: unless andy is back in europe, he is probably quite asleep
19:12:43 <SmatZ> flitz: and you should use some commonly used file extension for C++ files
19:13:58 <SmatZ> flitz: for C++, it's .cc, .cp, .cxx, .cpp, .CPP, .c++, .C
19:14:16 <SmatZ> flitz: don't run "gcc file.h", unless you want to create PCH
19:14:27 <SmatZ> just compile the .C file
19:14:32 <flitz> I never ran gcc on the header file
19:14:43 <SmatZ> ok, then I don't know why it failed for you :)
19:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on who you ask.
19:15:41 <flitz> what failed was just an arbitrary example :)
19:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but india probably is not part of europe :p
19:15:59 <flitz> I was just unclear about the definition being used for CreateNestedTree because I didn't see the default value
19:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: anyway, what do you actually want to tell us?
19:18:33 <alluke> jsut wanted to show andy the link
19:18:38 <Alberth> SmatZ: searching for the definition is complicated <-- doxygen docs fixes that problem :)
19:20:30 <SmatZ> Alberth: ok :) well, it's most likely my fault, I should learn new things :)
19:20:46 <SmatZ> I am not far that old not to :P
19:22:13 <SmatZ> or use some IDE / better editor :)
19:23:30 <DJNekkid> action7/9, contitiontype 0D/0E (availability of railtype)... Is that a pos. in the RTT or the 'real' thing? (i.e. "xxxx" or "00")
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20:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "you are unique, just like everyone else"
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20:47:59 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22256 /trunk/os/rpm/ (openttd-rpmlintrc openttd.changes openttd.spec): -Update [FS#3375]: RPM spec file (Ammler)
20:49:28 <Rubidium> what? Throwing shoes to me?
20:50:12 <Rubidium> hmm, or am I a shoe?
20:50:29 <Ammler> oh, still "English only"
20:50:47 <SmatZ> Ammler: #openttdcoop has English only too
20:51:14 <Rubidium> Ammler: ö -> oe for those that fail to find the umlaut
20:51:35 <Rubidium> makes it "schoen", which is "shoe" in Dutch
20:51:54 <Rubidium> in any case... had to shoehorn the patch in :(
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21:15:42 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22257 /branches/1.1/ (54 files in 4 dirs): [1.1] -Backport from trunk: language updates
21:26:37 <supermop> had an idea for heqs trams
21:29:31 <planetmaker> supermop: create a ticket at the bug tracker :-)
21:29:58 <supermop> like the chicago tunnel company railroad
21:32:36 <supermop> or basically the ability to refit the trams to very short trains, for almost any cargo
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21:39:34 <supermop> also one of these would be fun:
21:39:51 <supermop> not reall 'heavy' in any sense of the word
21:40:11 <DanMacK> That'd be for the LEQS :P
21:40:23 <DanMacK> Capacity - 1 crate of goods
21:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: so you can transport exactly 1 supply per month? :p
21:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i have an idea: why not apply the same loading time calculation to road vehicles like for trains, when the station is not long enough?
22:29:08 <supermop> i think that needs a lot more station work
22:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that related?
22:31:47 <supermop> i was under the impression that it will allow ports, airports and road stations to be more flexible
22:32:06 <supermop> so you could essentially have a platform length for road stops
22:32:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that may be, but you can still find out the length of the platform by counting the adjacent road stops in the current system.
22:33:24 <supermop> also i am not sure if RVs count as actually being long for things other than blocking the next RV behind them
22:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause> they have a length for moving etc. it's the same as an articulated rail vehicle. i don't see a problem there
22:36:10 <supermop> if a long rv stops at the first stop, blocking 3 other stops behind it, is it aware that it is also occupying those stops?
22:36:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure it does
22:37:53 <supermop> so is some extra thing in the newgrf spec all that is needed?
22:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> no. has nothing to do with the newgrf spec
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22:40:02 <Yexo> <supermop> if a long rv stops at the first stop, blocking 3 other stops behind it, is it aware that it is also occupying those stops? <- not sure about that, but that's irrelevant
22:41:16 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: although the idea is not original, I like it
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