IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-03-16
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09:19:41 <planetmaker> good morning everyone
09:20:31 <pikka> must be some somewhere, ln
09:21:25 <planetmaker> ha, someone must still believe in the good :-)
09:26:26 <pikka> good morning planetmaker
09:26:58 <planetmaker> and when you park your car beneath their sleeping tree... you don't want to look at it later :-P
09:27:43 <planetmaker> I tried it out yesterday during sports :-(
09:28:39 <planetmaker> now I know why the parking space was empty there :-P
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09:32:31 <pikka> this bench is uncomfortable
09:33:16 * planetmaker suggests to use another one then :-)
09:34:02 <pikka> they all appear to be the same!
09:34:42 <planetmaker> drat. Upgrade to bench 2.0 then ;-)
09:36:50 <pikka> I could go in the mealroom but its too cold
09:36:50 <pikka> or I could sit in the bus, but its dark
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10:09:53 <dihedral> we host a website named "kernenergie.de" ....
10:11:48 <SmatZ> dihedral: why does it have wind power plants at its main page?
10:12:32 <dihedral> none of my concern :-P
10:12:44 <dihedral> but the 70-90 Mbit/s coming from a bot net is
10:13:40 <SmatZ> well, that page seems to load fine
10:15:02 <dihedral> the cpu load is 300 MHz according to esx
10:15:30 <peter1138> That's an odd measure for load...
10:15:32 <SmatZ> it takes currect CPU MHz and multiplies it by load?
10:32:14 <pikka> what are the haps chaps?
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10:46:29 * andythenorth is removing lego from the baby's mouth
10:46:39 <andythenorth> says 3-6 years on the box
10:46:46 <andythenorth> nah...it'll be fine :P
10:47:02 <andythenorth> turns out he can't swallow if you hold him upside down
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10:55:03 <andythenorth> is roadtypes done yet?
10:55:14 * andythenorth checks own progress
10:55:25 * andythenorth got stuck at second hurdle
10:55:41 <andythenorth> save game safety after moving some map bits
10:56:06 * andythenorth can not haz leet coder
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11:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for moving map bits, take e.g. saveload/afterload.cpp:1180-1185 as example
11:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or ll. 1310-1336
11:39:11 <andythenorth> my brain is somewhere else right now
11:39:28 <andythenorth> but it would be nice to make some progress on roadtypes :)
11:45:41 <andythenorth> success is more likely from someone who can actually code though :P
11:46:20 <andythenorth> I would happily bash on the drawing functions, I understand those so far
11:46:40 <andythenorth> but without any bits set, I can't write much drawing code :D
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11:50:57 <Terkhen> heh, a turing test for OpenTTD AIs
11:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if give me a table of what bits you want moved (like in docs/landscape.html), i could try it
11:53:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: "e.g. move the road works counter to m4 and use m7 bits 4..0 for the 2nd road owner"
11:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes
11:54:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ was the suggestion I was given ;)
11:54:16 <Eddi|zuHause> pikka: "owner of second road type"
11:54:59 <pikka> for overlayable roads like trans, I see
11:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> pikka: a road tile currently can have 3 owners. road, tram and station [or rail]
11:58:37 <Eddi|zuHause> while we are here: why has road/rail owner been switched for level crossings, and why has it not been un-switched?
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12:27:22 <pikka> speed limits in roadtypes may be interesting...
12:28:06 <pikka> the only way to do it 'realistically' may be with a cb36 on the vehicle
12:28:48 <pikka> or with some kind of speed limit table for the roadtype
12:29:27 <andythenorth> changing vehicle performance by roadtype would also be interesting....
12:29:57 <andythenorth> what's the best way to represent reduced traction?
12:47:34 <Chris_Booth> pikka you have seen the GFR error with FIRS and the monster Box wagon in UKRS2?
12:55:44 <pikka> the white lines? sure, just sprite cutting errors, no big deal
12:56:06 <pikka> ill fix them for the next version
12:57:03 * planetmaker wonders whether pikka hasn't grfcodec show the white pixel warnings
12:58:04 * planetmaker wonders whether andythenorth can now even ask a 2nd question :-P
12:58:19 <andythenorth> I keep seeing the request to disable sets of vehicles in grfs
12:58:24 <andythenorth> can't the game provide that
12:58:34 <andythenorth> add an action 0 label property to vehicles
12:58:40 <andythenorth> similar to stations
12:58:43 <planetmaker> that depends on the definition of "sets of vehicles"
12:58:55 <andythenorth> station tiles have a class
12:59:25 <andythenorth> or a GUI to turn on / off individual vehicles in a grf?
12:59:40 <planetmaker> yes, but vehicles have their 'type'. Introducing a separate class might be feasible
12:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the use of that?
12:59:50 <planetmaker> And the GUI is the parameter settings
13:00:00 <planetmaker> just a boolean parameter for each 'class'
13:00:16 <planetmaker> I'd not see how that'd work differently, though, if vehicles had a class property
13:01:17 <andythenorth> someone writes in once in game, saves newgrf authors endlessly writing their own version?
13:01:41 <planetmaker> but that only would allow to disable all trams (or whatever)
13:01:53 <planetmaker> or it's a thing newgrfs would have to provide anyway
13:02:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so. conceptual problem: moving owner2 to m7 is fine for normal road, but level crossings store owner1 there.
13:02:41 <planetmaker> and if you allow classes to be newgrf-defined... you cannot add general switches to OpenTTD. You cannot opt to only use cargos a,c,d and f; but not b and e
13:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> could move owner1 to m1 where it belongs, but then the rail owner must be stored somewhere else
13:14:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: this would be on a per-newgrf basis
13:14:27 <andythenorth> it would probably need new storage :P
13:14:54 <andythenorth> because players want to disable / enable specific vehicles in specific newgrfs
13:15:17 <planetmaker> I think you need to explain more how those classes are supposed to work
13:15:40 <planetmaker> things like station classes, cargo labels, railtype labels - they can be defined to every newgrf author's liking
13:15:52 <planetmaker> OpenTTD cannot provide means to disable a specific one.
13:16:10 <andythenorth> so...'classes' in this case are local to each grf
13:16:20 <andythenorth> they are defined in action 0 for each vehicle
13:16:39 <andythenorth> openttd reads all the action 0s, looking for classes
13:16:43 <andythenorth> it appends them to a list
13:16:44 <planetmaker> Then it's easy for a grf to provide an action9 to skip the vehicle when parameter a is set
13:16:54 <planetmaker> it's one line per vehicle
13:17:08 <planetmaker> and cannot fail then
13:17:20 <andythenorth> well not all requests are valid I guess :P
13:17:37 <andythenorth> maybe this one fails the filter
13:17:37 <planetmaker> really, you're proposal sounds you want to replace one line in your newgrfs by another line. Only to reach the very same thing
13:17:51 <andythenorth> it's not one line
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13:17:56 <andythenorth> it's a bunch of action 14 as well
13:18:17 <planetmaker> -1 * 0 07 <some parameter value> <skip next n sprites = action0 of vehicle>
13:18:46 <planetmaker> and a parameter for each vehicle class. Yes. But you'd need to define those "labels" somewhere, too
13:19:06 <andythenorth> changing this parameter in a running game would be...bad
13:19:08 <planetmaker> you can as well do that in one action14 thing. Which is quite easy to do, too
13:19:16 <planetmaker> changing vehicle availability, too
13:19:25 <planetmaker> so it would be a pre-start option anyway
13:19:38 <andythenorth> you're correct, but not 100% convincing ;)
13:19:43 <andythenorth> I'll do it your way for HEQS
13:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i predict the sum of all action14s that all newgrf authors combined will write won't make up for the code this needs
13:20:00 <andythenorth> it's quite a complicated new bit of GUI
13:20:13 <planetmaker> ^ my feeling ;-) And even if: the newgrf approach is much more flexible.
13:20:17 <andythenorth> is there a third option somehow?
13:20:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth, complicated?
13:20:30 <andythenorth> option A is do it in newgrf - fine, I'll do it that way
13:20:40 <andythenorth> option B is try to provide it in openttd - BAD
13:20:49 <andythenorth> I wondered if we missed any alternatives?
13:20:59 <andythenorth> I can't think of one
13:22:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: complicated - this would have to be added to newgrf window somewhere
13:22:51 <andythenorth> and a modal dialogue provided
13:22:57 <andythenorth> and someone has to think about save / cancel
13:23:39 <andythenorth> I think this idea died
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15:07:29 <dihedral> who would be so stupid to run a wget loop from hetzner?
15:10:25 <V453000> oh wait you drink milk, right? :D
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15:12:10 <Ammler> right now, apple must (or how that is called) :-)
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15:18:09 <Eddi|zuHause> might be iMust now ;)
15:20:55 <dihedral> someone got an idea how i can sum up numbers? each number on a separate line... - shell please :-P
15:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> awk 'BEGIN {$sum = 0} {$sum+=$1} END { print $sum }' or something
15:22:41 <dihedral> i think i managed with for and expr
15:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you can figure out the details ;)
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15:39:54 <V453000> Ammler: applesaft at least imitates beer by the colour :P
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17:35:52 <avdg> yay, new generation of life
17:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (ever since medieval times, a black eagle on golden shield was the symbol of germany)
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18:45:32 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r22255 /trunk/src/lang/ukrainian.txt:
18:45:32 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:32 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 16 changes by Madvin
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19:40:48 <andythenorth> the 'build random secondary industry' suggestion isn't a bad one
19:41:01 <andythenorth> although it further complexifies industry code + advanced settings window
19:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, just the found industry window
19:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd do it, if i hadn't sworn to stay the hell away from GUI code :p
19:45:20 <frosch123> from when is that vow?
19:46:11 <frosch123> anyway, towns should randomly appear if gold mines open :p
19:46:34 <Rubidium> and randomly disappear when nuclear plants "disappear"?
19:47:17 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: from when i last touched gui code. i think it was the ITiM patch
19:48:28 <frosch123> hmm, ITiM... Improved Timetables Marshmallow ?
19:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that ;)
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20:03:32 <krinn> is the ai save timing/trigger configurable?
20:05:47 <Yexo> the amount of time the Ai has for saving?
20:06:06 <krinn> doc says save function is trigger when user hit save button
20:06:20 <krinn> but in fact, the save function is trigger after some time or an event i don't know
20:06:31 <krinn> but always even if the user never use the save button
20:06:37 <Yexo> the AI save function is called exactly at the time when the game is saved
20:06:43 <Yexo> maybe you have enabled autosave?
20:06:56 <krinn> ah yes, might be that !
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20:08:21 <krinn> <Yexo> the amount of time the Ai has for saving? <--- there's one ?
20:09:38 <krinn> found the autosave options, was set to each month :)
20:10:09 <Yexo> <krinn> <Yexo> the amount of time the Ai has for saving? <--- there's one ? <- no, there is no such option
20:10:51 <krinn> thank you Yexo, must say i'm impress by your game knowledge
20:32:17 <confound> hm. how do I convince my trucks not to pile up behind a single drive-through bay when the station has like 10 of them available? sometimes they're smart about it and sometimes not so much.
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20:33:35 <krinn> human way? fast i found is send the group for servicing
20:33:54 <confound> maybe I actually wanted to turn off road vehicle queueing
20:34:26 <krinn> and they don't really queue for just 1, but the 2-3 first vehicle are queuing for it
20:34:37 <krinn> and they block others that are going to others entries
20:35:12 <krinn> if you have patience for that, you can service the one that is waiting in front of the bay and reverse it, this will generally unblock the situation
20:36:08 <confound> I want it to not happen to begin with, though.
20:37:01 <krinn> well, 2 road size and bay 1 and bay 2 in front : 1 for each side, you will lower risk 1 vehicle block access to the other bay
20:39:11 <frosch123> 1. make sure the station is part of the orders (explicitly ordered, not via non-non-stop). 2. make sure the driving distances to the bays are not too different. 3. make the vehicle decide late where to go. 4. make the vehicles not arrive all at once
20:40:11 <confound> yeah it's the driving distance thing
20:41:18 <confound> by 'decide late' you mean give plenty of crossing roads so they can change direction, right?
20:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "was gibt es besseres als eine heiße dusche und danach ein kühles blondes?"
20:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "eine heiße blonde und danach eine kühle dusche!"
20:42:17 <krinn> you can use waypoin to force them decide, but a bit of pain to handle truck by waypoint
20:42:35 <krinn> like truck1->wp1->station, truck2->wp2->stationbay2...
20:42:47 <confound> yeah that's horrible :)
20:43:03 <confound> I have about 300 trucks at this station
20:43:05 <krinn> imo a 10 truck bay must be horrible too
20:43:44 <krinn> it's more a human choice Eddi|zuHause i think he knows trains can do the work ;)
20:43:59 <confound> it's ukrs2 and the only livestock car is terrible
20:44:18 <confound> plus I want to be able to design efficient truck stations too
20:44:46 <krinn> confound, you can't really do that, as the auto taking bay is a bit weak
20:45:03 <confound> what frosch123 helped a lot
20:45:10 <confound> er, what frosch123 said
20:45:18 <krinn> it's like "truck arrive near-> truck see empty bay-> going there", but when truck2 arrive, the bay is still empty for it too, even truck1 is going to it
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20:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there's not much to design, one-way roads are limited and the bay-assigning-algorithm can't properly predict the near future...
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20:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have "signals" to help you guiding the traffic
20:47:04 <confound> my station was also overcrowded after upgrading to new trucks so selling a third of them helped too
20:47:10 <krinn> you can use the road one way as Eddi|zuHause suggest to limit "truck dropper" and "truck getter" sharing the same bay, even they share same station
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20:55:19 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, how Westerbrjicken Gbf Kohle could be in range ? looks pretty far from the industry
20:55:53 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: it's not. it's a transfer station, train brings coal, trucks deliver coal to the plant
20:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the label denotes a "waypoint", the actual station is the following one, attached to the train station
20:56:53 <krinn> ah ok, insane but nice :)
20:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> three industries are serviced this way. a food processing plant (livestock, grain), a saw mill (wood in, processed wood out) and a power station (coal)
20:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the "waypoints" are set so that trucks of different cargo don't interfere with each other
21:00:31 <krinn> dunno how people could live in that town with such a traffic at their windows :)
21:01:13 <frosch123> they are all employed to carry the coal from the truck station across the road to the power plant
21:02:21 <krinn> eheh like in real life, after reaching a certain point, you can do what you wish
21:02:59 <krinn> should rename it to detroy :)
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23:37:58 <confound> it seems like the catchment area for nonuniform stations doesn't act like I expect
23:38:48 <confound> does it take the farthest-spread parts of the station, draw a rectangle between them, and extend the catchment area from that rectangle?
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23:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause> for delivering cargo to industries, the smallest rectangle around the station is relevant, for picking up cargo from the industry, the smallest rectangle around the industry is relevant
23:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> this rectangle is extended by the catchment radius of the station
23:53:17 <SmatZ> I was searching for a wiki article, but then I forgot...
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