IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-03-16
            
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08:03:43 <andythenorth> mornings
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08:09:18 <Terkhen> good morning
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09:18:45 <pikka> gentlemen
09:19:11 <__ln__> where?!
09:19:18 <planetmaker> birdman
09:19:41 <planetmaker> good morning everyone
09:20:31 <pikka> must be some somewhere, ln
09:21:25 <planetmaker> ha, someone must still believe in the good :-)
09:23:02 <pikka> the birds in thi
09:23:11 <pikka> er
09:23:16 <pikka> that tree
09:23:23 <pikka> are noisy
09:23:31 <pikka> but not noisome
09:26:26 <pikka> good morning planetmaker
09:26:58 <planetmaker> and when you park your car beneath their sleeping tree... you don't want to look at it later :-P
09:27:20 <pikka> indeed
09:27:43 <planetmaker> I tried it out yesterday during sports :-(
09:28:01 <pikka> whoops
09:28:39 <planetmaker> now I know why the parking space was empty there :-P
09:29:12 <pikka> :)
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09:32:31 <pikka> this bench is uncomfortable
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09:33:16 * planetmaker suggests to use another one then :-)
09:34:02 <pikka> they all appear to be the same!
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09:34:42 <planetmaker> drat. Upgrade to bench 2.0 then ;-)
09:34:54 <pikka> hmm
09:36:50 <pikka> I could go in the mealroom but its too cold
09:36:50 <pikka> or I could sit in the bus, but its dark
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10:09:53 <dihedral> we host a website named "kernenergie.de" ....
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10:11:48 <SmatZ> dihedral: why does it have wind power plants at its main page?
10:12:21 <dihedral> hehehe :-D
10:12:32 <dihedral> none of my concern :-P
10:12:34 <SmatZ> :)
10:12:44 <dihedral> but the 70-90 Mbit/s coming from a bot net is
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10:13:40 <SmatZ> well, that page seems to load fine
10:15:02 <dihedral> the cpu load is 300 MHz according to esx
10:15:18 <SmatZ> interesting
10:15:30 <peter1138> That's an odd measure for load...
10:15:32 <SmatZ> it takes currect CPU MHz and multiplies it by load?
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10:30:01 <pikka> hello andy
10:30:08 <pikka> et al
10:30:26 <pikka> et Pedro1138
10:30:52 <pikka> and du
10:32:14 <pikka> what are the haps chaps?
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10:46:17 <andythenorth> hellos
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10:46:29 * andythenorth is removing lego from the baby's mouth
10:46:39 <andythenorth> says 3-6 years on the box
10:46:41 <andythenorth> he's 12 months
10:46:46 <andythenorth> nah...it'll be fine :P
10:47:02 <andythenorth> turns out he can't swallow if you hold him upside down
10:47:05 <andythenorth> so far anyway
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10:51:42 <peter1138> :S
10:52:23 <planetmaker> he :S
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10:55:03 <andythenorth> is roadtypes done yet?
10:55:06 <andythenorth> :P
10:55:14 * andythenorth checks own progress
10:55:25 * andythenorth got stuck at second hurdle
10:55:41 <andythenorth> save game safety after moving some map bits
10:56:06 * andythenorth can not haz leet coder
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11:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for moving map bits, take e.g. saveload/afterload.cpp:1180-1185 as example
11:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or ll. 1310-1336
11:39:06 <andythenorth> thanks
11:39:11 <andythenorth> my brain is somewhere else right now
11:39:28 <andythenorth> but it would be nice to make some progress on roadtypes :)
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11:45:41 <andythenorth> success is more likely from someone who can actually code though :P
11:46:20 <andythenorth> I would happily bash on the drawing functions, I understand those so far
11:46:40 <andythenorth> but without any bits set, I can't write much drawing code :D
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11:50:57 <Terkhen> heh, a turing test for OpenTTD AIs
11:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if give me a table of what bits you want moved (like in docs/landscape.html), i could try it
11:52:18 <pikka> mmm woadtypes
11:53:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: "e.g. move the road works counter to m4 and use m7 bits 4..0 for the 2nd road owner"
11:53:47 <pikka> 2nd owner...
11:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes
11:54:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ was the suggestion I was given ;)
11:54:07 <pikka> interesting
11:54:16 <Eddi|zuHause> pikka: "owner of second road type"
11:54:33 <pikka> oh
11:54:59 <pikka> for overlayable roads like trans, I see
11:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> pikka: a road tile currently can have 3 owners. road, tram and station [or rail]
11:57:09 <pikka> hm
11:57:09 <pikka> right, I see
11:57:09 * pikka back to driving
11:58:37 <Eddi|zuHause> while we are here: why has road/rail owner been switched for level crossings, and why has it not been un-switched?
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12:24:26 <pikka> D:
12:26:53 <pikka> hmm
12:27:22 <pikka> speed limits in roadtypes may be interesting...
12:28:06 <pikka> the only way to do it 'realistically' may be with a cb36 on the vehicle
12:28:48 <pikka> or with some kind of speed limit table for the roadtype
12:29:27 <andythenorth> changing vehicle performance by roadtype would also be interesting....
12:29:42 <pikka> yep
12:29:57 <andythenorth> what's the best way to represent reduced traction?
12:30:02 <andythenorth> lower TE?
12:30:19 <pikka> I guess so
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12:30:45 <Wolf01> hello
12:30:48 * pikka drives again
12:47:34 <Chris_Booth> pikka you have seen the GFR error with FIRS and the monster Box wagon in UKRS2?
12:55:44 <pikka> the white lines? sure, just sprite cutting errors, no big deal
12:56:06 <pikka> ill fix them for the next version
12:57:03 * planetmaker wonders whether pikka hasn't grfcodec show the white pixel warnings
12:57:41 * andythenorth has a question
12:57:48 <andythenorth> can I ask? :P
12:58:04 * planetmaker wonders whether andythenorth can now even ask a 2nd question :-P
12:58:19 <andythenorth> I keep seeing the request to disable sets of vehicles in grfs
12:58:24 <andythenorth> can't the game provide that
12:58:34 <andythenorth> add an action 0 label property to vehicles
12:58:40 <andythenorth> similar to stations
12:58:43 <planetmaker> that depends on the definition of "sets of vehicles"
12:58:55 <andythenorth> station tiles have a class
12:59:25 <andythenorth> or a GUI to turn on / off individual vehicles in a grf?
12:59:40 <planetmaker> yes, but vehicles have their 'type'. Introducing a separate class might be feasible
12:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the use of that?
12:59:50 <planetmaker> And the GUI is the parameter settings
13:00:00 <planetmaker> just a boolean parameter for each 'class'
13:00:16 <planetmaker> I'd not see how that'd work differently, though, if vehicles had a class property
13:01:17 <andythenorth> someone writes in once in game, saves newgrf authors endlessly writing their own version?
13:01:41 <planetmaker> but that only would allow to disable all trams (or whatever)
13:01:44 <planetmaker> in all newgrfs
13:01:53 <planetmaker> or it's a thing newgrfs would have to provide anyway
13:02:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so. conceptual problem: moving owner2 to m7 is fine for normal road, but level crossings store owner1 there.
13:02:41 <planetmaker> and if you allow classes to be newgrf-defined... you cannot add general switches to OpenTTD. You cannot opt to only use cargos a,c,d and f; but not b and e
13:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> could move owner1 to m1 where it belongs, but then the rail owner must be stored somewhere else
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13:14:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: this would be on a per-newgrf basis
13:14:27 <andythenorth> it would probably need new storage :P
13:14:37 <planetmaker> uhm, why?
13:14:54 <andythenorth> because players want to disable / enable specific vehicles in specific newgrfs
13:15:17 <planetmaker> I think you need to explain more how those classes are supposed to work
13:15:35 <andythenorth> ok
13:15:40 <planetmaker> things like station classes, cargo labels, railtype labels - they can be defined to every newgrf author's liking
13:15:52 <planetmaker> OpenTTD cannot provide means to disable a specific one.
13:16:10 <andythenorth> so...'classes' in this case are local to each grf
13:16:20 <andythenorth> they are defined in action 0 for each vehicle
13:16:22 <andythenorth> it's a string
13:16:39 <andythenorth> openttd reads all the action 0s, looking for classes
13:16:43 <andythenorth> it appends them to a list
13:16:44 <planetmaker> Then it's easy for a grf to provide an action9 to skip the vehicle when parameter a is set
13:16:52 <andythenorth> hmm
13:16:54 <planetmaker> it's one line per vehicle
13:16:56 <andythenorth> yes I know :)
13:17:08 <planetmaker> and cannot fail then
13:17:20 <andythenorth> well not all requests are valid I guess :P
13:17:37 <andythenorth> maybe this one fails the filter
13:17:37 <planetmaker> really, you're proposal sounds you want to replace one line in your newgrfs by another line. Only to reach the very same thing
13:17:51 <andythenorth> it's not one line
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13:17:55 <planetmaker> it is.
13:17:56 <andythenorth> it's a bunch of action 14 as well
13:18:17 <planetmaker> -1 * 0 07 <some parameter value> <skip next n sprites = action0 of vehicle>
13:18:46 <planetmaker> and a parameter for each vehicle class. Yes. But you'd need to define those "labels" somewhere, too
13:19:06 <andythenorth> changing this parameter in a running game would be...bad
13:19:08 <planetmaker> you can as well do that in one action14 thing. Which is quite easy to do, too
13:19:16 <planetmaker> changing vehicle availability, too
13:19:25 <planetmaker> so it would be a pre-start option anyway
13:19:29 <andythenorth> hmm
13:19:38 <andythenorth> you're correct, but not 100% convincing ;)
13:19:43 <andythenorth> I'll do it your way for HEQS
13:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i predict the sum of all action14s that all newgrf authors combined will write won't make up for the code this needs
13:20:00 <andythenorth> it's quite a complicated new bit of GUI
13:20:13 <planetmaker> ^ my feeling ;-) And even if: the newgrf approach is much more flexible.
13:20:17 <andythenorth> is there a third option somehow?
13:20:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth, complicated?
13:20:22 <planetmaker> how so?
13:20:30 <andythenorth> option A is do it in newgrf - fine, I'll do it that way
13:20:40 <andythenorth> option B is try to provide it in openttd - BAD
13:20:49 <andythenorth> I wondered if we missed any alternatives?
13:20:59 <andythenorth> I can't think of one
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13:22:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: complicated - this would have to be added to newgrf window somewhere
13:22:51 <andythenorth> and a modal dialogue provided
13:22:57 <andythenorth> and someone has to think about save / cancel
13:23:03 <andythenorth> and...stuff
13:23:14 <andythenorth> work
13:23:39 <andythenorth> I think this idea died
13:26:20 * andythenorth to work
13:26:24 <andythenorth> back later
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15:07:29 <dihedral> who would be so stupid to run a wget loop from hetzner?
15:08:40 <V453000> me!
15:08:51 <SmatZ> me too
15:08:56 <Ammler> no, me want
15:08:59 <SmatZ> :P
15:09:06 <V453000> :P
15:09:41 <Ammler> he, and good day guys
15:09:54 <V453000> beer to the swiss!
15:09:59 <V453000> :)
15:10:11 <V453000> (== good day)
15:10:25 <SmatZ> :-)
15:10:25 <V453000> oh wait you drink milk, right? :D
15:10:27 <SmatZ> hello Ammler
15:10:37 <V453000> :P
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15:12:10 <Ammler> right now, apple must (or how that is called) :-)
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15:18:09 <Eddi|zuHause> might be iMust now ;)
15:20:55 <dihedral> someone got an idea how i can sum up numbers? each number on a separate line... - shell please :-P
15:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> awk
15:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> awk 'BEGIN {$sum = 0} {$sum+=$1} END { print $sum }' or something
15:22:41 <dihedral> i think i managed with for and expr
15:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you can figure out the details ;)
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15:39:54 <V453000> Ammler: applesaft at least imitates beer by the colour :P
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17:25:45 <Eddi|zuHause> http://skitch.com/monkeydom/rw93y/atomadleronedom
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17:35:52 <avdg> yay, new generation of life
17:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (ever since medieval times, a black eagle on golden shield was the symbol of germany)
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18:45:32 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r22255 /trunk/src/lang/ukrainian.txt:
18:45:32 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:32 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 16 changes by Madvin
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19:40:48 <andythenorth> the 'build random secondary industry' suggestion isn't a bad one
19:41:01 <andythenorth> although it further complexifies industry code + advanced settings window
19:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, just the found industry window
19:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd do it, if i hadn't sworn to stay the hell away from GUI code :p
19:45:20 <frosch123> from when is that vow?
19:46:11 <frosch123> anyway, towns should randomly appear if gold mines open :p
19:46:34 <Rubidium> and randomly disappear when nuclear plants "disappear"?
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19:46:43 <frosch123> :s
19:47:17 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: from when i last touched gui code. i think it was the ITiM patch
19:48:09 <Terkhen> heh
19:48:28 <frosch123> hmm, ITiM... Improved Timetables Marshmallow ?
19:48:42 <Rubidium> management?
19:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that ;)
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20:03:08 <krinn> hi
20:03:32 <krinn> is the ai save timing/trigger configurable?
20:05:39 <Yexo> which ai save timing?
20:05:47 <Yexo> the amount of time the Ai has for saving?
20:05:53 <krinn> no
20:06:06 <krinn> doc says save function is trigger when user hit save button
20:06:20 <krinn> but in fact, the save function is trigger after some time or an event i don't know
20:06:31 <krinn> but always even if the user never use the save button
20:06:37 <Yexo> the AI save function is called exactly at the time when the game is saved
20:06:43 <Yexo> maybe you have enabled autosave?
20:06:56 <krinn> ah yes, might be that !
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20:07:46 <krinn> autosave have options?
20:08:21 <krinn> <Yexo> the amount of time the Ai has for saving? <--- there's one ?
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20:09:38 <krinn> found the autosave options, was set to each month :)
20:10:09 <Yexo> <krinn> <Yexo> the amount of time the Ai has for saving? <--- there's one ? <- no, there is no such option
20:10:51 <krinn> thank you Yexo, must say i'm impress by your game knowledge
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20:32:17 <confound> hm. how do I convince my trucks not to pile up behind a single drive-through bay when the station has like 10 of them available? sometimes they're smart about it and sometimes not so much.
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20:33:35 <krinn> human way? fast i found is send the group for servicing
20:33:43 <confound> ha
20:33:46 * confound is sad
20:33:54 <confound> maybe I actually wanted to turn off road vehicle queueing
20:34:26 <krinn> and they don't really queue for just 1, but the 2-3 first vehicle are queuing for it
20:34:37 <krinn> and they block others that are going to others entries
20:35:12 <krinn> if you have patience for that, you can service the one that is waiting in front of the bay and reverse it, this will generally unblock the situation
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20:36:02 <confound> I know
20:36:08 <confound> I want it to not happen to begin with, though.
20:37:01 <krinn> well, 2 road size and bay 1 and bay 2 in front : 1 for each side, you will lower risk 1 vehicle block access to the other bay
20:39:11 <frosch123> 1. make sure the station is part of the orders (explicitly ordered, not via non-non-stop). 2. make sure the driving distances to the bays are not too different. 3. make the vehicle decide late where to go. 4. make the vehicles not arrive all at once
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20:40:11 <confound> yeah it's the driving distance thing
20:40:53 <confound> thanks
20:40:58 <confound> well, 2 and 3
20:41:18 <confound> by 'decide late' you mean give plenty of crossing roads so they can change direction, right?
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20:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "was gibt es besseres als eine heiße dusche und danach ein kühles blondes?"
20:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "eine heiße blonde und danach eine kühle dusche!"
20:42:17 <krinn> you can use waypoin to force them decide, but a bit of pain to handle truck by waypoint
20:42:35 <krinn> like truck1->wp1->station, truck2->wp2->stationbay2...
20:42:47 <confound> yeah that's horrible :)
20:42:53 <krinn> :)
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20:43:03 <confound> I have about 300 trucks at this station
20:43:05 <krinn> imo a 10 truck bay must be horrible too
20:43:15 <Eddi|zuHause> use trains.
20:43:44 <krinn> it's more a human choice Eddi|zuHause i think he knows trains can do the work ;)
20:43:59 <confound> it's ukrs2 and the only livestock car is terrible
20:44:18 <confound> plus I want to be able to design efficient truck stations too
20:44:46 <krinn> confound, you can't really do that, as the auto taking bay is a bit weak
20:45:03 <confound> what frosch123 helped a lot
20:45:10 <confound> er, what frosch123 said
20:45:18 <krinn> it's like "truck arrive near-> truck see empty bay-> going there", but when truck2 arrive, the bay is still empty for it too, even truck1 is going to it
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20:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there's not much to design, one-way roads are limited and the bay-assigning-algorithm can't properly predict the near future...
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20:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have "signals" to help you guiding the traffic
20:47:04 <confound> my station was also overcrowded after upgrading to new trucks so selling a third of them helped too
20:47:10 <krinn> you can use the road one way as Eddi|zuHause suggest to limit "truck dropper" and "truck getter" sharing the same bay, even they share same station
20:47:45 <confound> yeah, good point
20:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> the closest i ever got to "designing" a road station was this: http://media.openttd.org/images/screens/0.7/Klein_Elsmuenster2_krause_20090711.png
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20:55:19 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, how Westerbrjicken Gbf Kohle could be in range ? looks pretty far from the industry
20:55:53 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: it's not. it's a transfer station, train brings coal, trucks deliver coal to the plant
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20:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the label denotes a "waypoint", the actual station is the following one, attached to the train station
20:56:53 <krinn> ah ok, insane but nice :)
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20:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> three industries are serviced this way. a food processing plant (livestock, grain), a saw mill (wood in, processed wood out) and a power station (coal)
20:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the "waypoints" are set so that trucks of different cargo don't interfere with each other
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21:00:31 <krinn> dunno how people could live in that town with such a traffic at their windows :)
21:01:13 <frosch123> they are all employed to carry the coal from the truck station across the road to the power plant
21:02:21 <krinn> eheh like in real life, after reaching a certain point, you can do what you wish
21:02:59 <krinn> should rename it to detroy :)
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21:39:15 <LordAro> moin all
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21:44:42 <krinn> hi
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21:59:43 <Markk> Moin moin
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22:08:04 <frosch123> night
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22:26:08 <Terkhen> good night
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23:37:58 <confound> it seems like the catchment area for nonuniform stations doesn't act like I expect
23:38:48 <confound> does it take the farthest-spread parts of the station, draw a rectangle between them, and extend the catchment area from that rectangle?
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23:39:14 <confound> looks like yes
23:40:51 <confound> weird!
23:41:15 <SmatZ> yes
23:41:21 <SmatZ> well...
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23:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause> for delivering cargo to industries, the smallest rectangle around the station is relevant, for picking up cargo from the industry, the smallest rectangle around the industry is relevant
23:53:03 <SmatZ> yup :)
23:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> this rectangle is extended by the catchment radius of the station
23:53:17 <SmatZ> I was searching for a wiki article, but then I forgot...
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