IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-03-14
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00:10:26 <supermop> If you were working in a locomotive works, would you prefer northen or southern light for natural illuminaation?
00:11:04 <supermop> thaat is, would you want the brightest light, or the most consistent light
00:24:59 <confound> I've only played with the vanilla industries so far. what's a good first set of extra industries to try out?
00:27:18 <confound> I'd like some new stuff but I don't know if I want to also deal with limited cargo acceptance and stuffl ike that
00:29:53 <supermop> Firs doesn't have limited acceptance
00:34:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i like PBI, it has few new cargos, but acception limits and primary industries that run out
00:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS is the opposite, it has lots of new cargos but no acceptance limits
00:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> ECS has both, but also has many configuration options. use this if you want extreme micromanagement
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11:10:44 <George> Hi. Question about bananas. Is it possible to change version description without uploading the GRFs?
11:11:05 <George> I wrote 14 mar 2010 instead of 2011 :(
11:17:25 <planetmaker> not without database hacking
11:24:53 <planetmaker> and the only person who can do so is Rb
11:41:59 <George> So you think I sould just leave it as is?
11:42:37 <planetmaker> Well, depends on how grave you consider this lapse.
11:43:19 <planetmaker> Personally I'd not consider it much important. But personally I also leave out the date from the versions
11:43:36 <planetmaker> as it in my eyes makes it harder to find the last one due to too many numbers in the version
11:44:08 <George> BTW, may be bananas can be improved to use GRF version ("INFO" -> "VRSN") instead?
11:44:31 <George> Then the only question would be to specify in GRF correctly
11:44:51 <planetmaker> That probably would be nice :-) even though it's an internal number only. And successive grfs may come without
11:45:02 <planetmaker> good ones, of course come with it ;-)
11:46:19 <George> Who should be contacted with this suggestion?
11:47:03 <planetmaker> good question. Probably the bug tracker, section bananas, is a good place
11:47:19 <Rubidium> The version is hardcoded in the filename of the tars, so changing that ain't possible
11:48:05 <planetmaker> ah, yes, forgot about that
11:49:51 <George> Rubidium: the question is would be possible to make bananas read this value from GRF instead of manually putting it. Same way as GRFID
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12:05:25 <Pulec> anyone plays openttd on netbook here?
12:05:45 <Pulec> 1024x640 is quite small for all windows but its still ok
12:06:05 <Pulec> better then any most portable devices except those big tablets with 1366px
12:06:07 * planetmaker doesn't play on a netbook but often has a window smaller than that
12:06:30 <Pulec> one can learn on play on that small screen
12:06:36 <Pulec> its all about window managing
12:06:58 <planetmaker> well. when I occasionally need many windows (when?) I can still enlarge it.
12:06:59 <Pulec> but nothing stops to connect a bigger screen
12:07:26 <planetmaker> oh, sure things stop me. Like I don't move my big screen onto my lap when sitting comfortably on the couch
12:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> remember when you only had 640x480 screens, which the game was designed for?
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12:08:08 <Pulec> i can play comfortably in bed and even with very small touchpad that samsung nc10 has its still very playable and fun
12:08:33 <Pulec> hehe i played TTD on 15" screen
12:09:16 <Pulec> but I cant really understand how OpenTTD can be playable on ppc or 480x320 devices
12:09:26 <Pulec> or smaller screens 320x240
12:09:51 <planetmaker> Pulec, 13" is sufficient and my full-screen size ;-)
12:10:13 <planetmaker> but much smaller is not nice indeed
12:10:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i only have a 27" monitor
12:10:29 <Pulec> 13" with what resolution?
12:10:30 <planetmaker> and often windows are not designed for smaller than 640x480
12:10:41 <planetmaker> Pulec, 13" with 1280x800
12:11:26 <Pulec> good for playing Minecraft too
12:11:54 <planetmaker> two computer game obsessions are enough, no need to start a 3rd ;-)
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13:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> # Und fliegt das Kraftwerk in die Luft, fängt jeder an zu strahlen
13:22:59 <planetmaker> Und aus dem Keller ertönt das eintönige Geräusch der Bartwickelmaschine. ;-)
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13:28:09 <planetmaker> It's like "wir wollen lächeln und nicht strahlen"
13:31:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i just googled around... this "Bartwickelmaschine" phrase is really unknown here...
13:32:48 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe only noble people can afford such a thing :p
13:36:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "Wir hatten doch nüscht damals!"
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13:57:39 <krinn> i hit a strange error, anyone see a reason why
13:57:45 <krinn> local vehList = AIVehicleList();
13:57:51 <krinn> if (vehList.HasItem(veh)) vehList.RemoveItem(veh);
13:58:23 <krinn> endup with an error "the index 'RemoveItem' does not exist
13:59:24 <krinn> it's on openttd 1.0.5, AIAbstract list have the RemoveItem protected functions, and from doc AIVehicleList() is a AIAbstractList
14:12:44 <Yexo> protected functions are not exposed to squirrel
14:13:15 <Yexo> either do something like: local vehList = AIList(); vehList.AddList(AIVehicleList());
14:14:50 <krinn> this should works with 1.1 so ? now that AIList have the function itself, i suppose any list are AIList now ?
14:15:51 <krinn> i solve it with : .SetValue(veh,-1); vehList.RemoveValue(-1);
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14:40:59 <Hyronymus> yexo, can you have a read on the mod section of the forum
14:44:01 <Yexo> done, your message if fine
14:44:39 <Yexo> I do expect more ranting, although I hope not
14:48:47 <Hyronymus> get your pacifiers ready :)
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15:48:21 <krinn> Yexo: is there a way to get the refit capacity of an engine without actually building it ?
15:52:11 <krinn> Yexo, i mean you can have engine X with capacity 10 pass (AIEngine.GetCapacity) can be refit to mail (AIEngine.CanRefitCargo), but how can i know before building it that "mail capacity will be Z when refit"?
15:52:30 <Yexo> no support from the newgrf specs, so impossible to do for openttd
15:54:35 <krinn> this nearly render unusable the option for an ai
16:01:40 <Yexo> yes, buying a single wagon, refitting it and storing the capacity is the only way
16:02:36 <krinn> a fast buy/sell doesn't imply money lost ?
16:03:29 <Yexo> the value of a vehicle diminishes over time
16:03:54 <krinn> should buy every vehicle in game at start, refit them to any possible cargo they can be refit with, get the info and sell them
16:04:22 <Yexo> even that isn't completely failsafe
16:04:24 <krinn> and this is worst for new engine (not a proof the ai have the money to buy that engine when it came out to test that)
16:04:39 <Yexo> the amount of cargo after refitting can depend on a lot of things, for example the year you refitted the vehicle
16:05:14 <krinn> sad such great feature became nightmare for a "simple" missing query
16:05:47 <krinn> and i suppose some newgrf are also dumb like "10 capacity for pass, refit to mail with 1 capacity"...
16:06:09 <Yexo> I doubt any are as dumb as that
16:06:45 <krinn> never seen it before, but even human can't get the info
16:07:11 <krinn> funny i didn't notice that when playing
16:07:44 <krinn> i wonder how many players refit their engine :)
16:08:36 <planetmaker> krinn, I guess they mostly refit the whole train
16:09:16 <planetmaker> But different capacities for different cargos is around a lot.
16:09:17 <krinn> for train it's easy, not so many wagons to trys, but airplanes :p
16:10:57 <planetmaker> what about airplanes?
16:11:26 <krinn> it's not really doable to buy an airplane to check it's refit capacity, airplane cost a lot, not like wagon
16:11:30 <planetmaker> possibly you can get a list of refittable cargoes. But capacities is something the player has to test, too
16:11:45 <planetmaker> krinn, why is that not possible? Of course it is
16:11:48 <Yexo> but you can buy/refit/sell within a few ticks, so most of the time you won't lose any money at all
16:11:49 <planetmaker> money is not an issue
16:12:10 <krinn> Yexo, just check, human have big refit cost
16:12:21 <Yexo> ah, didn't think of the refit costs
16:12:23 <planetmaker> and in order to create some initial money just setup a passenger air route half accross the map. Then you're set
16:12:55 <krinn> now looking at bakewell luckett: 200pass -> refit to any for 19,850, not something cheap
16:13:44 <planetmaker> well. But that's what you as player have to do, too
16:13:46 <krinn> i have money flow running planetmaker don't worry, it's just i was looking at the refit option
16:14:07 <planetmaker> krinn, yes. But if money is no issue, a bit refit cost doesn't hurt you either ;-)
16:14:20 <planetmaker> And you'd only test that, if you know you need to ship XY via air route
16:14:59 <krinn> it's a bit a pitty, you can passby good engine without knowing it
16:16:00 <krinn> say you have a "TT engine" doing 10pass refit to mail it could do 12 mail, better than many engine with less 12 mail capacity...
16:16:14 <planetmaker> well, I compare a new engine to the ones I'm running. And then I decide upon autoreplace or not
16:16:48 <planetmaker> and engine refit... I take it as bonus. Not as something to rely on
16:16:59 <planetmaker> that's what I have wagons for
16:17:22 <krinn> might work for a human, but i'm speaking about an ai
16:17:39 <planetmaker> where's the difference?
16:17:56 <krinn> well, i suppose a human will give up after 3-4 trys
16:18:08 <krinn> the AI will give up after gone 0 money
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16:20:44 <planetmaker> krinn, why would an AI do that?
16:20:51 <planetmaker> It's up to you to stop after 3...4 tries
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16:21:25 <krinn> because you can't guess 3-4 trys will be enough to get the best engine you're looking for
16:21:53 <planetmaker> it depends on 'best'
16:22:08 <krinn> in that case, i just speak about capacity
16:22:16 <planetmaker> which might be any combination of power, TE, speed and running costs (from my POV)
16:22:31 <planetmaker> engine capacity is boring and irrelevant to me
16:22:36 <Yexo> krinn: for fun: the speed can depend on the current cargo type the vehicle is refitted too
16:23:00 <DanMacK> lugo, Interesting link...
16:23:02 <planetmaker> Yexo, but only in the first half of months in odd years ;-)
16:23:45 <krinn> planetmaker, of course capacity isn't all, but this value "should" always be in your heuristic decision
16:23:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: in non-leap-years ;)
16:24:13 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, in leap years, it's the 2nd half of months ;-)
16:24:14 <krinn> why whould you pickup an egnine that cost 1$ run at 304330434 miles/s with a 0 capacity
16:24:26 <planetmaker> krinn, because the engine pulls wagons
16:24:45 <planetmaker> an engine is an engine. And not a wagon. For me at least
16:24:49 <krinn> you can't live without trains in your head :)
16:25:43 <planetmaker> krinn, yes. No point to run only engines. Unless it's a rail bus ;-)
16:26:14 <Yexo> planetmaker: krinn is not only talking about train engines, but also about road vehicles/aircraft
16:26:23 <Yexo> where you only buy a single 'engine' and no wagons
16:27:03 <planetmaker> :-) I prefer to call that vehicle - even though I know it all has an 'engineID'
16:27:33 <krinn> well, i refer as the vehicle as a build engine :)
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16:37:12 * Terkhen also finds that link interesting
16:37:38 <Terkhen> I wonder if it will allow to disable stockpiling via parameter
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16:52:23 <planetmaker> c->money = c->current_loan = 100000ll * _economy.inflation_prices; <-- that line reads wrong, Eddi|zuHause
16:55:44 <Hyronymus> what are the || for?
16:58:17 <planetmaker> ask Eddi|zuHause ;-)
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16:58:38 <Hyr|LeShave> time to get rid of that 5 day beard
17:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the "ll" means "long long"...
17:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i found the actual error, though
17:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure about the internal type-casting... i was putting the "ll" there to make sure things are treated as 64bit-int... which might or might not be the case
17:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it's definitely not wrong, though
17:16:49 <planetmaker> he, I read it as || (logical or) and wondered
17:17:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you need a proper font then ;)
17:17:49 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i'm gone... do with the patch what you want...
17:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> imho it's a sensible idea, and it doesn't really change any gameplay
17:18:33 <Prof_Frink> \o/ Drowning babies!
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17:21:07 <Eddi|zuHause> PS: the real error was that i didn't guttenberg the other line properly :p
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17:32:30 <planetmaker> I like that verb :-P
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17:48:52 <Zonta> I want to know if its possible to have a patch for my server to limit terraforming?
17:51:56 <Ammler> (construction.terraform_per_64k_frames and construction.terraform_frame_burst)
17:52:39 <Ammler> another alternative is using basecost mod to make terraforming quite expensive
17:53:21 <Zonta> Is the terraform option is available in the gui?
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18:03:19 <Ammler> Zonta, basecost mod has GUI :-)
18:10:51 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22251 /branches/1.1/ (. bin/data/opntitle.dat src/object_gui.cpp):
18:10:51 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
18:10:51 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Object variable 0x48 was not available in callback 0x15C (r22231)
18:10:51 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Update: the intro game (romazoon)
18:18:49 <Zonta> this feature construction.terraform_per_64k_frames is available only in 1.1 or its good to use in 1.0.5?
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18:25:43 <Ammler> [19:03] <Ammler> Zonta, basecost mod has GUI <-- ;-)
18:25:54 <Ammler> but without gui on 1.0.5
18:27:02 <Zonta> yeah but i don't want to increase the price of the terraforming i just want to limit it :p
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18:27:12 <Zonta> like in this 1.1 option
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19:03:34 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22252 /branches/1.1/ (46 files in 5 dirs):
19:03:34 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
19:03:34 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not resort town, industry and signs list directly in
19:03:34 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: OnInvalidateData(). There might be a scheduled rebuild which needs execution
19:03:34 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: first. So, only set a trigger for resorting [FS#4546] (r22249, r22248, r22247,
19:03:35 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: r22246, r22245, r22244, r22243, r22242, r22241, r22236, r22228, r22227, r22226)
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19:22:40 <confound> is there a default keybinding to just close the last window opened rather than 'close everything'?
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19:28:24 <Belugas> ctrl+alt+left shift + del
19:28:33 <Belugas> ho... no.. already taken
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19:54:11 <Prof_Frink> Belugas: Emacs keybindings for ottd?
20:06:30 <peter1138> Emacs, not iMacs :)
20:13:22 <peter1138> Real coders use vim :D
20:14:52 <Belugas> and real administrators wine
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20:16:35 <Belugas> that feels like a unix joke...
20:18:11 <Prof_Frink> No, it's a reference.
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21:15:00 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22253 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Change: Apply the same inflation to the initial loan as to the maximum loan. Note that this is no change to the economy; it only saves players some clicks when starting companies in later years. (Eddi)
21:22:34 <krinn> where can i found the name of internal game settings like this one ? AIGameSettings.GetValue("vehicle.max_trains"))
21:24:17 <Spoons> Read the openttd.c*nf.
21:24:20 *** Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
21:25:20 <krinn> thank you FauxFaux, looks like it is :)
21:26:04 <frosch123> or "list_settings" in console
21:26:06 <SmatZ> krinn: list_settings console command
21:27:08 <FauxFaux> krinn: Or you can use 'list_settings' in the console.
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22:02:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that was quick... why do people complain that their patches take years until they get included? :p
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22:03:51 <krinn> because the complainers are french, and it's a national sport here ?
22:14:09 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: I would rather complain that your patches got too fast to trunk :-P
22:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that is really not my fault.
22:14:50 <Ammler> that is true, I wouldn't blame you :-)
22:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, the "patch" you mean was neither my patch, nor my idea...
22:15:13 <Ammler> well, I have no idea about the current patch
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22:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it really does nothing.
22:19:43 <Ammler> yeah, my comment was just a generic comment to your question ;-)
22:21:02 <Ammler> patches, which change gameplay are bad for us as we can't revert those like you
22:21:49 <Eddi|zuHause> OK. YOU HEARD HIM. STOP CHANGING GAMEPLAY NOW!!!
22:23:56 <Ammler> I know, you don't take that serious, as you don't care about us poor MPlers :-P
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22:24:43 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22254 /trunk/src/settingsgen/settingsgen.cpp: -Codechange: Make settingsgen only update the output file if it actually changed.
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