IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-03-13
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00:35:12 <supermop> anything positive going on?
00:39:02 <Pikka> trying to get a grf finished by april 1st.. :P
00:39:25 <supermop> i shoud work on my grf today
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08:32:40 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22235 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/faroese.txt: -Add: stub for a Faroese translation
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09:59:54 <frosch123> "Now some years passed and I have 3 OpenTTD installations running. 2 stable 1.0.5 each for one screen and 1 nightly that recieves frequent upgrades." <- :o
10:00:28 <frosch123> clearly the main advantage of multiple screens is that you can play two games simultaneiously :)
10:04:31 <Terkhen> and you need two installations of 1.0.5 for that? can't you open the same one twice?
10:04:51 <fonsinchen> I've read of one guy who played a network game with himself on two screens so that he gets two fullscreen viewports into the same game. Maybe that's the same person. Having two installations for that is quite funny, indeed.
10:06:49 <frosch123> he, network game with yourself? i remember i did that with outpost 2, as it had no proper sandbox mode without annoying opponents
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10:44:04 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22236 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Fix (r21457): Disarm a bear-pit, which r22226 almost fell into.
10:51:15 <Ammler> can't you make one openttd fullscreen on 2 screens?
10:51:46 <frosch123> that's the normal behaviour here
10:51:59 <Ammler> thought that is a os thing :-)
10:52:00 <frosch123> i cannot make fullscreen on a single screen though :)
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10:52:29 <frosch123> Ammler: rather a sdl thing. other applications make fullscreen on single screen
10:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> a "quack(salber)" is something different...
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10:59:52 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: though they might use ingredients of toads and such :p
11:00:16 <Eddi|zuHause> frogs are not toads either ;)
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11:27:49 <Zuu> On the two installation thing, I also first though it was useless, but decided to not comment on that as he might have made some tweaks so that they go auto-fullscreen on the right monitor.
11:30:38 <Zuu> (right as in the correct one - eg one on left and one in right direction ;-) )
11:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you can do that with the -c option
11:45:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but in general, the person might just be cautious where two instances of the same installation may cause conflicts over temporary files
11:46:13 <Ammler> how does autosave work in that situation, btw.?
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12:59:39 <frosch123> planetmaker: s/grfwizard/grfmaker/
13:00:39 <frosch123> grfwizard is some stupid wrapper around grfcodec for people who cannot use a cli
13:01:31 <planetmaker> like the thread starter :-P
13:03:10 <Rubidium> we definitely should get a labview toolbox so he can clickity click together NewGRFs ;)
13:04:55 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you don't know G?
13:04:58 <frosch123> yeah, the important part of labview is, that everyone thinks he could learn it :p
13:05:24 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: G is a languages of fourth generation
13:05:32 <frosch123> ... or something like that is written on the box ...
13:05:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like a meta-meta-language?
13:06:29 <Alberth> no, it's a visual programming language for making user interfaces
13:07:04 <Alberth> but everything is graphical, including eg +, and a for-loop
13:07:57 <frosch123> it's actually quite nice for its purpose. the biggest drawback is that you need to have the same version installed everywhere, as it has basically no compatibility between even minor versions
13:08:21 <Rubidium> and it sucks w.r.t. source control
13:08:39 <Rubidium> open, scroll and save changes the "source code"
13:08:41 <Alberth> any non-textual language does :)
13:08:53 <Rubidium> so you can't really diff it either
13:09:05 <planetmaker> that's the biggest drawback
13:09:28 <Alberth> people are doing research to fix that :)
13:09:33 <planetmaker> and the inability to show all cases of a switch or case statement at once
13:09:42 <frosch123> but it makes a nice handicraft work to attach a printout of the source to your paper :)
13:09:57 <planetmaker> but it has a very shallow learning curve. Initially
13:10:05 <planetmaker> It gets a lot steeper later on
13:11:02 <Alberth> you cannot open a C code block and start programming C like people do with Simulink? :p
13:11:09 <planetmaker> frosch123: nowadays you just make an electronic attachment ;-)
13:11:51 <frosch123> planetmaker: i doubt that can beat the look&feel of flip-book
13:11:52 <Alberth> planetmaker: then it is dead before you published it due to compability puzzles :)
13:13:18 <planetmaker> Though between minor versions programmes mostly (not always) work
13:22:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's actually quite funny if your code doesn't become too complex
13:23:34 <frosch123> no, it actually becomes quite funny when your code becomes complex :p
13:24:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, you mean "quite fun", that is something different ;)
13:24:32 <frosch123> also "quite funny", because everyone thinks it's easy before looking into the sub-vis :p
13:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> well, back when i made my chemical facility control program, i made the easy calculations in such a visual language, and the complex calculations in "real code" ;)
13:30:08 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, what does anyone think about this: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/longwag.grf www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/longwagtest4.sav
13:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i got the alignment right now
13:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause> now i need something to fix (some of) the glitches
13:39:30 <frosch123> are you sure with the alignment?
13:40:01 <frosch123> i'm not sure about the perspective of certain angles
13:40:28 <frosch123> hmm, or does it tilt?
13:42:33 <frosch123> how many parts does one wagon consist one?
13:42:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the width of the roof is odd in some views, yes
13:43:00 <frosch123> something like 4-8-4 ?
13:43:05 <Eddi|zuHause> only the middle one is visible
13:44:12 <frosch123> i guess it looks most weird due to wagons moving sidewards
13:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but you can't really prevent that
13:46:14 <frosch123> maybe also use x_pos & 0xF and y_pos & 0xF and only consider the neighboured wagons when close to the edge of a tile
13:49:55 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: alberth * r22237 /trunk/src/engine_type.h: -Doc: Add some doxyments to structs and enums in engine_type.h
13:50:23 <Eddi|zuHause> this grf above uses 12 views for the vehicle. i tried 8 but it looks even more weird. and with only the 4 standard views they stick really far out of the rails
13:51:46 <Eddi|zuHause> other possibility might be to use 5 parts, 2+2+8+2+2, then the turning would be closer to the edge
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14:00:23 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: alberth * r22238 /trunk/src/engine_type.h: -Codechange (r8888): Also remove the now unused NUM_VEHICLE_TYPES constant.
14:00:25 <frosch123> maybe 4 + 4 + 8 works better as long as fs#3569 is not done
14:07:06 <Nite> ... searching for any nice servers with nice newgrfs, ecs or firs ...
14:07:39 <Nite> anything i might have overlooked?
14:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, that seems to work better
14:11:13 <alluke> those japanese maglevs accelerate like tractors
14:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> tractors have an insane amount of TE
14:15:19 <Eddi|zuHause> updated version: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/longwag.grf www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/longwagtest5.sav
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14:17:53 <alluke> well 0-100 in 10 years
14:18:20 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: you mix something up there...
14:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: tractors have extremely high acceleration, but very low top speed
14:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: your maglevs are the opposite
14:19:11 <alluke> how about an oil tanker
14:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that comes closer ;)
14:19:39 <alluke> the maglevs top is 502
14:19:46 <alluke> but they accelerate dead slow
14:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing that has higher acceleration than a tractor is a bulldozer
14:21:48 <alluke> they should be like rockets
14:24:57 <Eddi|zuHause> complain to the grf author
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14:35:12 <alluke> are you going to fix the trams
14:35:56 <alluke> ecs cereals are carried in a boxcar
14:37:17 <peter1138> Yeah, boxes of Cornflakes, Shreddies and Grape nuts.
14:39:23 <alluke> in firs and normal industries theyre carried in a hopper
14:39:41 <andythenorth> because I am feeling capricious :D
14:39:50 <alluke> are you discriminating rival industry set
14:40:06 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that even looks good :)
14:40:06 <andythenorth> but I am not developing HEQS at the moment
14:40:17 <andythenorth> it will be in HEQS 1.1
14:40:39 <andythenorth> or 1.01 or whatever I call it
14:41:17 <andythenorth> I'll do HEQS 1.01 in a few months
14:41:29 <alluke> just a little code change
14:41:35 <andythenorth> right now I'm doing other projects ;)
14:41:39 <alluke> there is already sprites for grain
14:41:57 <andythenorth> raise the ticket ;)
14:42:21 <andythenorth> and in other news
14:42:29 <andythenorth> where's my clicky-pointy newgrf GUI ?
14:45:16 <alluke> HEQS 2 will feature (slightly smaller) cargo capacities for many vehicles, to better match NARS 2 and UKRS 2. The original capacities are set to balance with eGRVTS. New capacities will be balanced with FIRS production. Probably 25% lower.
14:45:36 <alluke> the ukrs2 capacities are unrealistically low
14:46:12 <andythenorth> is what you're reading?
14:46:33 <andythenorth> you don't like the idea?
14:47:01 <alluke> i like the idea of realistic capacities
14:47:07 <alluke> but ukrs2 is way too low
14:47:12 <alluke> compare to any other sets
14:47:32 <alluke> the biggest cars available carry only 20 tons
14:47:54 <alluke> while other sets have 40-60
14:48:55 <andythenorth> well, it was a player request :P
14:49:00 <andythenorth> funny things, player requests
14:49:07 <andythenorth> you implement one, someone else whines
14:50:31 <andythenorth> Rubidium: that was a remarkably restrained reply in the forum thread :o
14:58:20 <Rubidium> the one where I told somewhat he doesn't know shit about stuff?
14:58:54 <Eddi|zuHause> in my experience, people who say "i'm not an idiot" are usually exactly that ;)
14:59:19 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I refrained from writing that sentence slightly paraphrased in that thread ;-)
14:59:39 <planetmaker> like... "why do you then behave like one?" ;-)
14:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, i read that ;)
14:59:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i can imagine the part in <> ;)
15:00:28 <Nite> sure about that 20 tons? later waggons?
15:02:34 <alluke> put in ukrs2, year 3k, and start game
15:02:40 <alluke> sort the wagons by capacity
15:03:03 <alluke> ukrs has awfully unrealistic capacities
15:04:12 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: ukrs2 might not be finished in the later stages
15:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: i mean: the later wagons and engined might not be done yet
15:05:14 <Nite> i think the max 33 tons coal or 30K liters oil in nars2 are ok ...
15:05:51 <Nite> if one side wants 40 and the other 60 choose 40 ?
15:06:33 <Nite> whatever i look forward to ukrs2
15:07:40 <Nite> iam a bit worried about the out of scale thing in ottd atm ...
15:08:16 <Nite> industreis too close together if u choose large station size ... sums it up
15:08:41 <Nite> more statoin than track between is simply odd
15:08:45 <planetmaker> openttd has a game-specific scale
15:09:08 <planetmaker> it's a game with its own laws, not meant to simulate any particular reality
15:09:10 <Nite> or would if industreis could be more sparsly
15:10:14 <Scuddles> What about the polybulk hoppers that don't carry coal anymore like they did in the old ukrs?
15:10:24 <Nite> iam not into realism at al
15:10:58 <Nite> but, ottd orients on realistik things kind of
15:11:23 <alluke> i suggested parameters for realistic and ttd capacities
15:12:24 <alluke> big capacities are good for gameplay
15:12:45 <Nite> and building almost no track but statoins only is odd even in an unrealistic way
15:13:00 <Nite> you can have longer tarins for more capacity?
15:13:35 <Nite> but then you need bigger maps ...
15:13:42 <Scuddles> Exactly, I can't even connect the 20 coal mines to a power plant with ukrs
15:13:58 <Scuddles> As if the train capacities weren't low enough, the industry gets full by the time I connect three of them
15:14:20 <Nite> 20 coal mines is an extreme cluster
15:14:44 <Nite> (btw i almost only play ECS, so one coalmine is enough)
15:14:59 <alluke> but 10 coal mines are more fun
15:15:16 <alluke> with nearly 10k ton trains carrying the stuff out
15:15:55 <Nite> 10 caolmines jsut use space on the map - 1 mine producing same as 10 normal ones is very gamaplay/construciton freindly
15:16:10 <planetmaker> alluke: why do you think that big capacities are good for gameplay?
15:16:38 <alluke> because you dont have to buy 1000 trains
15:16:46 <Nite> hihg capacity IS fun: building a network that can do it
15:16:55 <Scuddles> Probably because one train would be able to carry an entire year's production in a single trip
15:17:01 <alluke> take a look at kiruna for example
15:17:15 <planetmaker> alluke: as it's a transport game... building transportation means is what it's about....
15:19:01 <Nite> the scale is odd in many cases ecs produces almost to much, firs produces nothing at all, vanilla produces nicely but has no variety ... its all bad ;-P
15:19:49 <Nite> * not to be taken seriously
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15:21:18 <Nite> and i like pikkas trainsets most of all - only very bad decision was making regearing using a cargo slot (!)
15:22:52 <Nite> well and making "futuretrains" weaker than old ones ... is ... odd 2
15:23:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never reached the "future" era ever since i started playing openttd
15:24:01 <Nite> well i reach it every week ...
15:24:41 <alluke> i built 20 tile coal trains from canset and ukrs2
15:24:59 <alluke> both have the biggerst wagons available
15:25:23 <Nite> are u in an online game? (no i assume)
15:25:47 <alluke> each car carrying 55 tons
15:25:59 <Nite> i think about 1000 tons a train are oki
15:26:21 <Nite> i have NO idea what real trains carry usually
15:26:59 <Eddi|zuHause> on loading gauge and permissible axle weight
15:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> for a 4-axle wagon in europe, 40t is probably a good estimate
15:28:55 <Nite> why estimate, numbers must be given somewhere, i mean you are the trainheads ;P
15:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried searching, but haven't found a suitible ressource
15:30:13 <Nite> there are some ottd players that know all about such stuff, iam nOt one of them
15:32:10 <Nite> and google is your friend
15:32:16 <alluke> in here we have 4-axle hopper, with capacity of 67.5 tons
15:32:25 <Nite> the net is full of trainspotters ...
15:33:10 <Nite> US has 120 ton waggons, off course rather long ones ...
15:35:04 <Nite> i conclude that 20 tons is really rather small ...
15:35:20 <Nite> but then ukrs2 is not finished ...
15:36:04 <alluke> and that 25 ton wagon is called monster box
15:37:32 <Nite> is "ton" always kilos? or pounds?
15:38:18 <planetmaker> Nite: there's ton and ton and ton ;-)
15:38:24 <planetmaker> metric, imperial and US
15:38:54 <planetmaker> similar variance as 'mile'
15:38:58 <Nite> but is it at least roughly the same, as hp and hp?
15:39:43 <Nite> us ton is 2000 pounds but 900 kg
15:40:02 <Eddi|zuHause> not even pound is the same as pound ;)
15:42:21 <andythenorth> HEQS in many places treats US ton as metric ton :P
15:42:27 <andythenorth> so some vehicles are currently *bigger* than RL :D
15:42:31 <Nite> where is this going, what tons do we have in ottd then ? (1000 kg? or just ottd tonnes?)
15:42:53 <andythenorth> I am playing a 150 year test game with FIRS, UKRS 2, HEQS, eGRVTS and FISH
15:42:56 <andythenorth> and capacities are fine
15:43:10 <andythenorth> I have no problems with UKRS 2
15:44:16 <andythenorth> the only problem I have with UKRS 2 capacities is that I need all the tiles I can get for stations
15:44:18 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: but your example wagon has an exceptionally high axle weight, which may only be run on very specific lines, not generally across europe
15:44:25 <Nite> how "ready" seems ukrs2 today?
15:45:15 <alluke> it was just an example of realistic hopper
15:46:00 <Nite> all the tiles you can get is64 then ? ,9
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15:46:32 <Nite> (i like stationspread 14 - 20)
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15:47:27 <Nite> well "generalyl across europe" woudl be very different ...
15:47:43 <Nite> i like it to be oriented on the maximum
15:48:21 <Nite> since You build the lines so you could build them 4 high tonnage
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15:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: but just taking the extreme examples doesn't usually make for good gameplay value
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15:49:21 <Nite> true! gamplay counts in the end
15:49:37 <Nite> not to easy, not to hard, not odd
15:51:24 <Nite> ... more railtypes for different tonnage ... where am i thinking
15:51:53 <Nite> extreme micromanegement ... is it good?
15:52:21 <planetmaker> make it so and try
15:52:31 <planetmaker> personally I'm not entirely convinced
15:52:42 <planetmaker> But then... speed limits might not be the best choice either
15:53:05 <planetmaker> And axle weight has not yet been tried really. Mostly as it needs modification of both, a railtype and a vehicle newgrf
15:54:11 <Nite> meaning "wagonspeedlimits" ?
15:54:39 <planetmaker> afaik that's what mb plans with his German tracks and DB set. So, if you're going to make a test setup, you could re-use its labels by taking an existing grf to use them. And then modify a train newgrf accordingly to obey the different types
15:54:59 <Nite> the autospeedlimits for curves/corners are fine it hink
15:55:52 <planetmaker> you would / could simply declare the light wagons compatible to both rail types. But the heavy axle wagons only compatible to the re-inforced tracks. Thus they could not go on the light weight tracks
15:56:34 <Nite> everyone would simply only build the best railtype for sure
15:56:46 <Nite> because in ottd you always have money like hay
15:57:02 <planetmaker> but if there's only a fast, low axle weight and a slow, heavy axle weight and a VERY expensive 3rd one?
15:57:10 <planetmaker> or maybe not even the latter?
15:58:09 <frosch123> Nite: that few? i tend to have more money than hay
15:58:31 <Nite> not too bad, one railtype for beginning the game ond one for when you are rich ... VERY rich
16:00:02 <Nite> comes to mind that there are also never really cheap or expensive trains, they all cost roughly the same ...
16:00:29 <Nite> you always buy the most powerfull
16:00:41 <planetmaker> define 'powerful'
16:01:04 <Nite> the one wiht teh most horsepower KN and or speed
16:01:13 <planetmaker> actually 'power' or 'tractive efford' or 'max speed' or another combination thereof?
16:01:26 <planetmaker> or maybe throw in running costs for more fun
16:01:39 <frosch123> Nite: there are at least three best engiens: most tractive effort, most speed, and least cost
16:01:41 <planetmaker> there is not a 'best one' with good train sets
16:01:47 <Nite> well speed and HP/KN mathers very much
16:02:02 <planetmaker> running costs do matter, though
16:02:05 <andythenorth_> there is usually a best-ish engine
16:02:13 <planetmaker> price not so much
16:02:23 <Nite> but it turned out when you raise the running costs the start of the gaem takes for ever
16:02:29 <frosch123> if you service a some industry with very low production, and your train has only like 2 wagons, then the price and running cost matters
16:02:37 <andythenorth_> but not by the time it's 1995
16:02:42 <andythenorth_> and you have 10k popn cities
16:02:54 <Nite> usually there is one fastest and one most powerfull engine you end up with
16:03:23 <andythenorth_> the more interesting restrictions are things like 'the fastest one can't haul mail'
16:03:28 <andythenorth_> or 'fastest one is 8 cars only'
16:03:38 <Nite> a train with 2 waggons is more a vehicle ...
16:04:33 <frosch123> yeah, you might use heqs as well for such routes
16:04:55 <andythenorth_> in my FIRS test game, I did scrap trains on most short runs
16:05:01 <andythenorth_> and use trams / trucks instead
16:05:17 <Nite> money is no object in ottd ...
16:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "braking", not "breaking"
16:05:49 <Nite> bascost mod is realyl very good
16:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also a track class D (22.5t/axle) and E (25t/axle)
16:06:16 <frosch123> Nite: still you want every single line to be profitable in it self (resp. i want that :p )
16:08:51 <Nite> can ottd handle more than 4 railtypes atm?
16:20:13 <planetmaker> thx, Eddi|zuHause
16:21:27 <Nite> big wagons are good (gameplay wise) as huge stations are no fun on medium sized maps because industreis are too close togehter
16:21:45 <Nite> often industreis are only 30 - 40 tiles appart
16:22:12 <Nite> which woudl mean with station size 20, you would not need any track at all
16:22:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: that actually means, industry production should scale with mapsize
16:23:06 <Nite> bigger maps bigger stations
16:23:37 <Nite> the onyl thing i see clear is that industries are often too close togethere
16:24:12 <Nite> can you switch of building of industreis by player completely in 1.1.0 ?
16:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
16:27:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can switch off building industries automatically by the game
16:29:46 <Alberth> indeed you cannot disable funding new industries
16:30:24 <TGYoshi> What's the use of the train controll posts?
16:30:33 <Nite> however in ecs building new industreis is sometimes rather restricted to certain places
16:30:55 <planetmaker> TGYoshi, call them waypoints and it might become clearer to you
16:31:05 <Nite> TGYoshi guess why are they called waypoints
16:31:07 <planetmaker> consider two routes which lead to the same destinations
16:31:34 <TGYoshi> I thought you used 1x1 stations for that :]
16:31:59 <Nite> or consider you want trains only to go to certain paltforms of a station
16:32:14 <Alberth> Nite: industries can limit the spot where they can be built
16:32:31 <planetmaker> TGYoshi, you can do that - but only if you use non-stop goto orders
16:32:31 <Nite> Alberth Thats what i meant
16:32:43 <planetmaker> without non-stop orders they'd seriously mess up your traffic
16:33:16 <Alberth> Nite but that is not related to user-funded building of industries
16:33:26 <Nite> use waypoints for waypoints simply
16:34:10 <planetmaker> though there usually is little need for waypoints ;-)
16:35:19 <Nite> i often needed them if a station has to do both - laoding and unloading
16:35:51 <planetmaker> that's indeed one of the very few use cases
16:36:12 <Nite> or, less often, having a quad track with slow-freight and fast-pax lanes
16:36:17 <planetmaker> which cannot be solved differently, IF you want to use one station for loading and unloading
16:36:39 <Nite> it is not very few in my games, i often use such stations ;)
16:37:02 <planetmaker> Nite, you save space by just using a drop and a pickup station
16:37:12 <planetmaker> and it's not detrimental either
16:37:59 <TGYoshi> Is there a way to provide a whole rail of signals immediately?
16:38:12 <TGYoshi> I just made a rail to the other side of the map..
16:38:12 <Nite> sometiems this does not work because one of the staotins would not be connected to the industry then
16:38:15 <planetmaker> from an existing signal
16:38:35 <TGYoshi> But I mean to fill an un-filled rail with signs immediately
16:38:56 <planetmaker> TGYoshi, that's what I mean, too, yes ;-)
16:38:56 <Alberth> as long as it doesn't branch :)
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16:39:37 <Nite> most of the "ctrl" functions are unknown by many ...
16:39:39 <Alberth> that will be 5 euro :D
16:39:49 <TGYoshi> As they are stated nowhere
16:40:12 <planetmaker> they should always be mentioned in the tooltip. And most on that wiki page
16:40:15 <Nite> its almost like: if you cannot do something first try it with ctrl down ...
16:40:39 <planetmaker> unless, of course, your language translator did not translate the ctrl features
16:40:52 <Nite> *lol* that they are even called "Hidden"
16:41:16 <Nite> like shared orders are hidden but essential
16:41:18 <planetmaker> they're not obvious. And the tooltip explanation is not particularily old either
16:41:24 <TGYoshi> Tooltips take so long to load
16:41:40 <TGYoshi> I still don't know how to do shared orders
16:41:41 <planetmaker> TGYoshi, configure them to use a shorter hover time
16:41:44 <planetmaker> Nite, not by default
16:41:56 <Nite> well copy trains and hold ctrl
16:42:02 <TGYoshi> The advanced settings is WAAYYYYY to rich of settings xD
16:42:15 <TGYoshi> Normal copy = No shared?
16:42:19 <Nite> or copy orders and hold ctrl = also shared orders
16:42:29 <TGYoshi> pfff complicated game xd
16:42:46 <planetmaker> TGYoshi, there's a difference between "same orders" and "shared orders"
16:43:00 <planetmaker> The latter make it easier as you modify one, all others follow that modification, too
16:43:11 <Nite> just pin down that ctrl and play as normal, you will be amazad what you will be able to!
16:43:27 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: alberth * r22239 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp engine_base.h engine_type.h): -Doc: Further engine doxyment additions.
16:43:31 <planetmaker> hm. Maybe it should be reversed for cloning / copying a vehicle
16:44:23 <Nite> a switch for shared order priority or not could work yes ...
16:44:38 <TGYoshi> ehh how to build double-signs? xd
16:44:45 <planetmaker> yet another advanced setting, Nite ? ;-)
16:44:56 <planetmaker> TGYoshi, path signals are always only one-sided
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16:45:51 <Nite> in fact i would like to see most new features with an on/off setting in teh advorders.
16:45:57 <planetmaker> hm, why do the cooling systems of power plants fail only now?
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16:46:21 <Nite> the first path siganl can be passed from behind
16:46:39 <Nite> but it is no signal from behind (ignored by trains)
16:47:11 <Alberth> planetmaker: they don't, /me remembers that in the summer cooling systems of a powerplant here could not cope with the heat either :)
16:47:19 <TGYoshi> Train too long error :/
16:47:24 <Vinnie_nl> an other openttd channel :)
16:47:44 <Alberth> is there more than one ?
16:48:10 <Vinnie_nl> but it is a secret :P
16:48:18 <Alberth> #openttdcoop perhaps?
16:48:33 <lugo> you have to ctrl-click to join that channel
16:48:37 <Alberth> Nite: just like our features?
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17:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> did the guy really create another forum account to rant in his own thread?
17:14:37 <planetmaker> I wonder the same
17:21:44 <Lakie> Well, from what I see it might be possible, the latest posts of both users don't share ips though, but both have posted from this one ip previously
17:25:06 <Lakie> Seems an odd think to register to say though
17:35:55 <frosch123> hehe, so he went to a different pc? :p
17:36:50 <Lakie> So, it starts with a complaint about breaking the engine through 'obserd speeds', then goes on to basically flame openttd and the lack of 'easy access programming'*...
17:37:19 <Lakie> Seems silly to be honest, complaining over things he doesn't really seem to understand
17:38:23 <Lakie> Heh, 'multi-core' support...
17:38:38 * planetmaker likes Alberth's reply on that :-)
17:39:35 <Lakie> Well, it's simple, storage and splitting of the 'threads' would be fair too much effort to maintain...
17:40:31 <frosch123> well, if it's the same guy, splitting makes no sense, rather lock it
17:41:16 <frosch123> oh, confused "splitting into threads" with "splitting the forum thread" :s
17:42:07 <Alberth> was just about to comment on lack of multi-cores at the forum :p
17:43:19 * Lakie wonders why users insist on it these days.
17:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of those buzz-wordy things
17:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> a year or two ago everybody requested some facebook-style flash game
17:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> multi-core processors are common nowadays even on the low-budget systems
17:48:36 <Lakie> Aye, but that doesn't nessarily mean certain apps will run any better on them
17:48:58 <planetmaker> it depends on how parallel-izable they are...
17:49:34 <Lakie> I know, hence certain apps. ;)
17:49:49 <planetmaker> and I trust the judgement of the people I know who looked at it... much more than a random bloke appearing and ranting about its need.
17:50:58 <Lakie> Aye, sounds like a pretty interesting subject for a PhD, Alberth
17:51:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's like Alberth said. having both multi-player-synchronisation and (properly balanced) multi-thread-support is near impossible. you'd have to design the game from scratch
17:51:40 <Alberth> even then it won't work, I think
17:51:54 <Alberth> everything needs the single shared resource, the map
17:52:19 <planetmaker> It *might* work somewhat, if the global access of the PF to the map was restricted.
17:52:28 <planetmaker> But it'd mean to scrap A*
17:52:42 <planetmaker> And go with a lot of complaint about "why does my train go there..."
17:52:46 <Alberth> yep, It's like having 8 people, and only one piece of paper with all the data :)
17:52:48 <planetmaker> not a good option ;-)
17:52:54 <Lakie> Hmm... such hostile attitudes, also the whole we use this so we own you attitude...
17:53:51 <Lakie> Also, I think he fails to understand, 'text files', script languages which are internally compiled to binary-ish code.
17:54:08 <planetmaker> those people always forget that everybody who contributes to this game (by whatever means and extend) does it purely for his or her own joy.
17:54:09 <Alberth> and then to suggest XML :p
17:54:26 <Nite> any idea why i sometimes can drag an order in a list and somtimes simply cannot?
17:54:52 <Lakie> That just gets processed with the various data extracted into the binary format needed...
17:54:57 <Alberth> Nite afair you cannot drag a selected order
17:56:41 <Nite> but when i klick an order it is selected automatically
17:58:36 <frosch123> Nite: iirc it somehow depends whether the order is selected or not
17:59:01 <frosch123> yeah, what albert says :)
17:59:47 <Alberth> at least we have the same idea about why :)
18:01:14 <Nite> ok ok, it gets selected in the process of dragging, but it must not be preselected.
18:08:11 <Nite> any way of allowing "non uniform stations" but disallowing "split up stations"?
18:09:00 <Nite> well bad idea because ppl would get to destination old style
18:09:44 <Nite> uniform stations could prevent beaming very much, though its hard
18:10:33 <Nite> or could you still beam with truckstops?
18:11:29 <planetmaker> Nite, just reduce the station spread
18:12:22 <SmatZ> Nite: yes, you could use truck stops as well
18:12:24 <Nite> but then i cannot has lengthy train
18:12:38 <Nite> yeah triead that truckstops
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18:14:02 <Nite> having an idea about non beaming
18:15:29 <Nite> vehicles that load actually have to be near the industry they want to laod from, not stations
18:17:09 <Nite> or both, vehicles and the station ahve to be near loadingindustry ...
18:17:25 <Yexo> <Nite> vehicles that load actually have to be near the industry they want to laod from, not stations <- that greatly limits station size
18:17:49 <SmatZ> Nite: just reduce station spread :P
18:18:21 <Nite> but then i cannot has lenghty train
18:18:37 <Yexo> how long trains do you want?
18:19:19 <Yexo> so set station spread to 20
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18:19:42 <Hyronymus> yexo, private please
18:20:35 <Nite> it salmost no use brainstorming the beaming issue
18:21:01 <Nite> - bigger maps industries faaaaaaaaaar apart
18:21:01 <Eddi|zuHause> conceptual question: in a projected fix for the shortened-vehicles-issue, will there be a newgrf-way to enforce compatibility with the new/old way of things, and how far will this compatibility go?
18:23:32 <Nite> a brutal new way of playing ottd, would be that the game only accepts deliveries that it wants first, giving out many subsidies that once archeived last forever ... like that?
18:24:00 <Nite> like a hard easy cargodist
18:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: rewriting the subsidy system is totally independent from cargodist
18:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: by all means, make a good proposal about that.
18:25:41 <Nite> " ... proposal about that." so you like it?
18:26:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: there's not really much to like about yet...
18:27:09 <grzywacz> Any idea why my trucks are not overtaking broken ones on one-way roads? :<
18:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause> grzywacz: articulated trucks cannot overtake
18:28:02 <Nite> well and there wil be no more to like - get more subsidies that last forever and hunt them ...
18:28:20 <grzywacz> Eddi|zuHause, no, old-style trucks
18:28:35 <grzywacz> They overtake on normal roads, but fail on one-way O_o;
18:28:44 <Nite> broken down on bridge or (near) intersection ?
18:29:46 <grzywacz> Nite, ah, so it doesn't work on bridges? Good to know.
18:45:35 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: translators * r22240 /trunk/src/lang/ (esperanto.txt greek.txt unfinished/faroese.txt):
18:45:35 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:35 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: esperanto - 9 changes by Christopher
18:45:35 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: faroese - 71 changes by FastNinja
18:45:35 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: greek - 20 changes by fumantsu
19:31:28 <Nite> there can be a bulldoze limit in 1.1.0 rc2 ?
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20:35:59 <supermop> i was wondering about how bridge sprites are composited, how exactly do the pillars work?
20:36:55 <supermop> and, can a railtype have a non default foundation(hat is a unique foundation for, say, monorail)
20:37:17 <Eddi|zuHause> pillars are something mysterious and messed up. it should be completely rewritten (together with action 1/2/3 support for bridges)
20:37:44 <supermop> i wanted some flexibility there, but i assumed it would not be possible
20:38:16 <supermop> I assume the bridge has no way of determining if there is something under it once it has been built
20:38:42 <Eddi|zuHause> only slope is considered, nothing else
20:39:07 <supermop> that is, if you had a trestle, you could not omit the pillars on a tile if a road was there
20:40:05 <supermop> giving up on that idea
20:40:34 <supermop> can different sprites be used for different heights of pillars?
20:41:25 <supermop> not having much luck here
20:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> afaik there's a sprite for the first level, and one for all consecutive levels
20:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "first" being the top one
20:42:05 <supermop> is first closest to bridge deck, or closest to ground?
20:42:40 <supermop> I would like one sprite for first, one for last, and a third for aall in between
20:42:47 <supermop> but i can live withought
20:42:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but my knowledge of this is rather vague
20:43:08 <supermop> sorry to be pestering you so much on it
20:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: really, the solution to this is exposing this to newgrf by an action1/2/3 chain with the appropriate variables
20:43:49 <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody bothered to implement that yet...
20:43:54 <supermop> and that needs a patch?
20:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> worse. it needs writing a patch.
20:44:16 <supermop> what can i do as someone who draws to help that along?
20:44:21 <frosch123> there is only one pillar sprite, but since the bridge floor is drawn above the pillars, you can use that to overdraw the top of the pillars with something else
20:44:43 <supermop> to fake a deck thickness?
20:45:22 <supermop> would it be rude for me to make a wisshlist of newgrf features for bridges in the forums?
20:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: not at all. it's always important to know what the grf coders actually want.
20:45:52 <supermop> either in ottd suggestions or newgrf technical sub forum?
20:46:07 <frosch123> supermop: there is already some topic somewhere
20:46:09 <supermop> here is another question:
20:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> newgrf technical would probably be better. depending on how technical your suggestion is
20:47:03 <supermop> how is the railtype sprite composited on the bridge deck? that is, is it possible for some rails (monorail) to have a narrower deck?
20:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: ideally, you would create an example spec extension, and a testing-grf, so someone who wants to implement it has a real testing environment
20:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be possible to have bridges for one single railtype only, but i don't know if that has changed
20:49:32 <supermop> i would prefer that, but it seems it would rapidly eat up the availible slots
20:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> my intuition tells me it should be possible, but it needs to be researched
20:52:05 <supermop> can railtypes have unique foundations?
20:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if it's possible, the bridge must know about the railtype, the railtype can't know about the bridge.
20:52:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i know that stations can have custom foundations. don't know about railtypes
20:52:48 <supermop> and does a tile with foundation always have to draw the flat tile over the foundation sprites?
20:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i know that industry tiles can choose to skip the foundation/flat tile
20:54:02 <frosch123> rails have no custom foundations
20:54:17 <supermop> so there is a precedent, at least in another feature type
20:54:37 <frosch123> station tiles can have custom foundations, but they need to be flat on the top if there is rail
20:54:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i think lots of these features are disabled for railtypes out of performance concerns
20:55:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be relatively easy to programatically allow it
20:56:22 <supermop> the idea,, would be for a monorail tile's foundation sprite to be a simple pillar in the center of the tile, so if you could omit the flat tile sprite, you would have the beam appear to be raised above the slope on a column
20:58:08 <Eddi|zuHause> TTO had a monorail bridge completely without pillars, only the rail
20:58:19 <supermop> so if i draw a bunch of bridges that couuld be made with the above ideas, and post them, that might make it easier to convince people of the benefit of these features?
20:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know why they removed that in TTD
20:58:35 <supermop> i played tto, not ttd
20:58:54 <supermop> so i miss the monorail looking morre like a 60's ALWEG
20:59:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the sand-y track base is also weird
20:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but i haven't reached the monorail time in ages...
21:00:03 <supermop> the monorail in the trench makes sense, but i'd like something more in the style of the real equipment in the 60s
21:00:40 <supermop> and have a newgrf that introduces it as a light passenger solution in the 60s, not a high speed heavy rail in the 2000s
21:01:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that makes some sense, yes.
21:01:22 <supermop> i thought of how i would balance it,
21:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> what i also could imagine is a tram-like monorail system, with raised monorail that doesn't block trucks
21:02:21 <supermop> and decided that the ability of some cheaper infrastructure in return for low freight capacity woud make sense
21:02:35 <Eddi|zuHause> which comes back to the problem of "allow 3 roadtypes per tile"
21:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> which we have discussed in lengths here
21:02:56 <supermop> if you could make a monorail only bridges that was relatively cheap
21:03:11 <supermop> you could run a monorail over city streets
21:03:34 <supermop> you would just have to build little hills for signals and turns
21:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it would also open the possibility of a raised/lowered lightrail system without a real layered map
21:04:46 <Eddi|zuHause> with the restriction that subway can only run along roads in the city, which is fairly realistic
21:05:38 <supermop> ccan a railtype forbid junctions?
21:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> if you mean road-crossings, yes
21:06:02 <supermop> meaning rail junctions
21:06:04 <Eddi|zuHause> if you mean switches in the rails, no
21:06:47 <Eddi|zuHause> except for ski-lifts, it was never seriously considered
21:06:58 <supermop> so that you could have concrete monorail beams, and steel beams, with only the steel beams able to make switches
21:07:12 <supermop> with steel beam much more expensive
21:07:38 <supermop> so that monorail itself is cheap, but complex junctions are expensive
21:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: might instead just make switches really expensive
21:08:07 <supermop> would save a rail typee?
21:08:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i think not, but it would be a serious request
21:08:45 <supermop> easier to make the case for than a junction_permitted setting?
21:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> there are people out there who request things like maintenance cost for rails
21:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so at least you'd easily find some allies ;)
21:09:38 <supermop> maybe not the allies that would make me look good in the eyes of the Devs though....
21:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it's really not that bad ;)
21:14:46 <supermop> i've mentioned this idea before:
21:14:59 <supermop> but needs actions 123
21:16:14 <supermop> have a bridge of type x owned by company 1 change sprites if another bridge of type x owned by company 1 is built next to it
21:17:32 <supermop> to create the appearance of a wider bridge
21:17:42 *** ar3k is now known as ar3kaw
21:18:03 <planetmaker> supermop, that needs a re-write or rather extension of the newgrf specs for bridges
21:18:24 <planetmaker> that'd be well-received, if done properly. But it has to be done...
21:18:28 <supermop> but would adding action 2 support allow it?
21:18:39 <planetmaker> depends on the variables made available
21:18:40 <supermop> so i know what to ask for?
21:19:15 <planetmaker> probably it could be done to some extend. But it'll need careful looking at
21:20:38 <supermop> sort of related question:
21:21:06 <supermop> what are the set of railtype sprites without ballast used for?
21:21:50 <Rubidium> junctions, path reservations
21:22:29 <supermop> could a bridge use just those sprites rather than the ballast sprites?
21:23:21 <planetmaker> for bridges a railtype has separate sprites defined. So it could even use a 3rd type of sprites
21:23:41 <planetmaker> or it could even do that depending on the bridge sets loaded. But not depending on the bridge type
21:24:25 <supermop> sorry to be asking so many questions
21:26:36 <planetmaker> (scroll a bit down to the appropriate heading)
21:31:44 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22241 /trunk/src/ (40 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Add additional to-be-used parameter to OnInvalidateData().
21:32:25 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22242 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_func.h window_gui.h): -Codechange: Let OnInvalidateData() decide itself what to do immediately in command scope, and what to do asynchronously in GUI-scope.
21:32:53 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22243 /trunk/src/ai/ (ai_gui.cpp api/ai_log.cpp): -Codechange: Make AIDebugWindow::OnInvalidateData() handle command-/GUI-scope itself.
21:33:14 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22244 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Codechange: Make vehicle windows handle command-/GUI-scope invalidations themself (from autoreplace and refitting).
21:33:43 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22245 /trunk/src/ (vehicle.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Make vehicle lists handle command-/GUI-scope invalidations themself.
21:34:09 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22246 /trunk/src/ (order_gui.cpp timetable_gui.cpp): -Fix: Process order window invalidations for specific orders in command-scope.
21:34:33 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22247 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Update comments wrt. ForceRebuild() in command-scope.
21:35:02 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22248 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp misc_gui.cpp network/network_chat_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Make OnInvalidateData() process 'delete this;' already in command scope.
21:36:06 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22249 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp fios_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Process some more invalidation of IDs during command scope.
22:05:40 <CIA-7> OpenTTD: frosch * r22250 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp newgrf.cpp): -Cleanup (r16378): Engines poolitems do not need a flag for validness anymore. The pool knows that on its own.
22:32:30 <Zonta1> Good Evening or Afternoon
22:32:49 <SpComb> those commit fests smell like git-svn to me
22:32:52 <Zonta1> Anyone here know a way to host a City builder or some short of goal server?
22:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> hg might be more common around here than git
22:34:03 <SpComb> hg can't commit to svn, I thinks
22:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, it's not the first time that there was a batch-commit of prepared patches
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23:18:38 <planetmaker> Zonta1: like any other server as well. But you'll need to write those patches first.
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continue to next day ⏵
