IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-03-09
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00:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i find it funny how you create a mental image from a person just by their nickname, and they look totally different
00:14:03 <perk11> yeah
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00:39:34 <Zmapper> can anyone help me?
00:40:24 <Yexo> that depends on whether you're stuck in the elevator or can't find the way to the nearest railway station
00:40:42 <Zmapper> I keep getting an error about not having 'no sound' checked
00:40:54 <Yexo> ah,that's better :)
00:41:03 <Yexo> what is the exact error message?
00:41:12 <Zmapper> I am trying to run a version with infra share that a friend compiled
00:41:16 <Zmapper> one sec
00:41:39 <Zmapper> Failed to select sounds set 'no sound'
00:41:52 <Yexo> your friend failed to create a problem bundle
00:42:04 <Yexo> *proper, not problem
00:42:33 <Yexo> no_sound.obs should be in the data/ directory
00:42:50 <Yexo> can you check whether is it? I'm guessing not, but check anyway
00:43:47 <Zmapper> When I add that it says Failed to select sounds set 'Scott Joplin Anthology'
00:44:05 <Zmapper> which i downloaded a while ago to replace the base sounds set
00:44:46 <Yexo> find openttd.cfg and remove the line that starts with soundsset =
00:45:23 <Yexo> hmm, rather musicset =
00:45:36 <Yexo> 'Scott Joplin Anthology' is a music set, not a sounds set
00:45:50 <Zmapper> yes
00:46:54 <Zmapper> where does openttd.cfg hide anyway
00:47:18 <Yexo> windows/linux/mac?
00:47:26 <Yexo> My Documents/OpenTTD/ under windows
00:47:27 <Zmapper> windows 7
00:47:38 <Yexo> probably something like "Documents/OpenTTD/"
00:47:41 <Zmapper> I have the folder open
00:47:48 <Zmapper> where openttd is installed
00:47:55 <Yexo> it's not in there
00:48:32 <Zmapper> not that i can see
00:48:40 <Yexo> see readme.txt section 4.2
00:49:01 <Yexo> C:\Users\<username>\Documents\OpenTTD\ according to that
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00:52:12 <Zmapper> cant find it
00:52:30 <Zmapper> I have two versions installed ATM
00:52:44 <Zmapper> 1.05 and the infra share version
00:53:05 <Yexo> do you have "hide known extensions" turned on?
00:53:19 <Zmapper> 1.05 had an installer and installed in both program files and my documents
00:53:24 <Yexo> it's a stupid windows setting, but if you do the file might look like "openttd" without the .cfg
00:53:49 <Zmapper> Is it on by default
00:54:10 <Yexo> 1.0.5 is completely installed in program files, the configuration (openttd.cfg), savegames and downloaded content will by default end up in My Documents
00:54:20 <Yexo> that means multiple installations can use a single config file
00:54:25 <Yexo> yes, it is
00:54:55 <Zmapper> found it
00:54:58 <Zmapper> finally
00:55:09 <Zmapper> just did a ctrl-f search
00:55:31 <Zmapper> so do i need to edit it
00:55:33 <perk11> btw why use my documents?
00:55:51 <perk11> and not %APPDATA%
00:56:34 <Yexo> because A) %APPDATA% wasn't around in earlier windows versions and B) it can't be found by users (so they can't find their savegames/screenshots)
00:56:43 <Yexo> there probably is a C) and D) which I don't know about :p
00:57:27 <perk11> sounds convincingly
00:57:43 <Zmapper> so how do i edit the .cfg
00:57:50 <Yexo> with any text editor
00:58:02 <Yexo> notepad will probably do, depending on the line endings
00:58:12 <Yexo> if it doesn't wordpad will work
00:58:23 <Zmapper> ok
00:58:23 <perk11> notepad does well, unless you turn on word wrapping
00:58:29 <Zmapper> I have it in notepad
00:58:38 <Zmapper> so what do i do?
00:59:34 <perk11> what do you want?
01:00:11 <glx> perk11: you're right, theorically it should be in app data
01:00:15 <Yexo> remove the line that starts iwth "musicset ="
01:00:36 <Zmapper> oh, ok
01:01:07 <glx> perk11: but even recent games still use mydocs
01:01:15 <Eddi|zuHause> most games put their stuff in my documents
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01:01:36 <perk11> many use "My games"
01:01:44 <perk11> in my docs
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01:02:06 <Zmapper> I thought it worked
01:03:54 <Zmapper> can you run a .32 version on a .64 machine?
01:04:07 <Zmapper> He sent me a .32 version
01:04:23 <Yexo> I wouldn't expect that to be a problem
01:04:44 <Zmapper> i now have a crash.dmp file on my hands :D
01:05:32 <Yexo> that means the game started ok, but crashed somewhere after
01:05:45 <Yexo> nothing we can help you with, ask your friend that compiled the binary for you
01:05:51 <Zmapper> ok
01:05:58 <Zmapper> I will just wait until tonight
01:06:08 <Yexo> but if 32bit vs 64bit was the problem you would not get a crash.dmp file
01:06:15 <Zmapper> Thanks for all the help Yexo and perkill
01:06:55 <Zmapper> what is the difference between .32 and .64 anyway
01:07:02 <Zmapper> better preformance?
01:07:27 <glx> not visible :)
01:07:53 <perk11> 32 bit binary works perfect on win64
01:08:01 <Yexo> and from what I've heard in the past the 64bit version was not always faster
01:10:27 <Zmapper> has anyone tried to simulate seperate countries with infra share
01:10:41 <Zmapper> I saw the one guy in the forums tried it
01:10:55 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a game on german forum like that
01:11:06 <perk11> I believe 64 bit version can work with savegames which are larger than 4 Gb
01:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause> two people playing 4 "countries" in multiplayer
01:11:20 <Zmapper> I saw that
01:12:37 <Zmapper> That seems interesting
01:12:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also look for "ottdgd", which was a (heavily patched) massive multiplayer game
01:13:06 <Yexo> wwottdgd <- that is the full abbreviation
01:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> and some guys tried to mimic the british rail network with "franchised" transportation companies
01:13:36 <Zmapper> Has anyone tried union stations
01:13:59 <Zmapper> where multiple companies share a central station in a city
01:15:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not aware of anything like that
01:16:45 <Zmapper> we tried in our server to have the government build a road network
01:17:06 <Zmapper> like a state highway system
01:17:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need infrastructure sharing for that
01:17:36 <Zmapper> yea
01:17:51 <Zmapper> we even built freeways and motorways later on
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01:25:32 <perk11> Zmapper: what's your server?
01:28:10 <Zmapper> it is a locked server
01:28:15 <Zmapper> and it is not mine
01:28:16 <perk11> ok
01:28:31 <perk11> it's just very interesting
01:28:31 <Zmapper> have you heard of
01:28:37 <perk11> no
01:29:04 <Zmapper> one of the members there (sirmoo) set up a sever
01:29:16 <perk11> ok
01:29:43 <perk11> thank you for the information
01:32:46 <Zmapper> what severs do you like
01:34:46 <perk11> I don't play much these days, I used to run my own server. Openttdcoop server is the best choice for complex networks building and I don't like luukland server much, but it usually has most of players online
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01:35:22 <perk11> And I'd say there aren't much interesting servers around except openttdcoop, but it's quite hard to start
01:35:43 <Zmapper> other than the one mentioned i like the servers
01:36:08 <perk11> is it private tooo
01:36:10 <perk11> ?
01:36:12 <Zmapper> on
01:36:14 <Zmapper> no
01:36:18 <perk11> ok
01:36:23 <perk11> I wrote it down
01:36:25 <perk11> thanks
01:36:28 <Zmapper> it is more relistic though
01:36:48 <Zmapper> It costs $1 million to change the land
01:40:27 <Zmapper> why was restricted trainlength added to 1.1
01:42:23 <perk11> to make even more custom settings available
01:42:45 <perk11> the question is why it's enabled by default
01:43:16 <Zmapper> I like running long trains
01:43:36 <perk11> you may change it in settings
01:43:46 <Zmapper> that is good
01:44:25 <perk11> bye
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01:46:13 <Zmapper> bye-bye
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02:31:43 <Zmapper> another question
02:31:48 <Zmapper> is NuTracks a newgrf
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02:32:28 <andythenorth> morn
02:32:37 * andythenorth shouldn't read forums when getting up with a headache
02:32:57 <supermop> its an odd hour for you i'd think?
02:33:26 <andythenorth> I'm in a different time zone
02:33:30 <andythenorth> to usual
02:33:43 <supermop> not gmt?
02:33:48 <andythenorth> nope
02:33:54 <andythenorth> I'm on Indian Standard Time
02:33:58 <supermop> ah
02:34:09 <andythenorth> IST includes an interesting random factor
02:34:48 <andythenorth> although the clock is 5.5 hours ahead of gmt, the times at which stuff actually happens / arrives / gets done is quite variable :D
02:34:49 <supermop> yeah?
02:34:57 <supermop> hah
02:35:09 <Zmapper> true
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02:36:25 <supermop> going to duck out to grab dinner,
02:37:42 <supermop> back in a second
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03:11:29 <supermop> alright
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03:47:50 <DanMacK> hey Andy
03:48:00 <DanMacK> weird seeing you here this time of day :P
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03:53:03 <supermop> it seems like so much of drawing sprites for tt iss about replicating grimey old things,
03:53:17 <supermop> its hard to draw things that look new without looking rediculous
03:53:42 <supermop> ie
03:54:21 <supermop> drawing a modern motive power shop that might be built in 2011
03:55:13 <supermop> while balancing between it looking like a featureless white box, or some crazy futurist's idea from 40 years ago
03:57:38 <DanMacK> lol
03:58:50 <andythenorth> DanMacK: even weirder seeing you here
03:58:58 <andythenorth> seeing as we are on opposite sides of the planet :P
03:59:41 <glevans2> he's on the inside, and your on the outside? or vice cersa?
03:59:48 <glevans2> versa
04:00:20 <supermop> itss extra hard aas an architecct
04:00:48 <supermop> because any building that i would design would look oddly not 'real enough'
04:02:07 <DanMacK> lol
04:02:26 <supermop> for some reason i also have a hard time with the purple windows
04:02:35 * DanMacK pictures concrete with a row of windows along the top 1/3
04:02:36 <supermop> can never get them to look right
04:03:07 <supermop> i am actually doing a panel system building
04:03:09 <DanMacK> Use the dark purplish blue
04:03:15 <DanMacK> ahhh
04:03:18 <supermop> but
04:03:53 <supermop> i am adding all sorts of crap to it that i never would in real life (even if i specc'd a generic panel system curtain wall)
04:04:12 <supermop> like a butterfly roof for no reason
04:04:48 <supermop> be cause I figure the monorail depot should look more 'futuristic' than HSR
04:05:14 <supermop> so making the building look less utilitarian is my approach for now
04:05:46 <supermop> altough i personally never got tt using monorail as a futuristic high speed heavy rail
04:06:06 <supermop> I want it to be like an ALWEG subconsciously
04:06:30 <supermop> mid century light passenger moving equipment
04:07:17 <supermop> so this depot should really look more like a 60's vision of a futuristic building,
04:07:42 <supermop> not a 60's high modern build, nor a 90's post modern building
04:08:10 <supermop> sorry i am monologuing heere
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04:09:55 <DanMacK> no worries
04:10:09 * DanMacK finds architecture fascinating
04:10:41 <supermop> me too, but its not so great for paying the bills at the moment
04:11:19 <DanMacK> heh
04:15:05 <andythenorth> supermop: look at some of the TTD default office buildings for inspiration
04:15:08 <andythenorth> especially the futurism ones
04:15:15 <supermop> actually
04:15:29 <andythenorth> 'how would Simon Foster do it' is my default thought these days
04:15:30 <supermop> ive talked to planetmaker about this
04:15:32 <supermop> but
04:15:39 <andythenorth> it's not very original :P
04:15:42 <supermop> norman foster
04:16:26 <supermop> the original tto nakagin capsule tower had a oddly important influence on me as a kid in the mid 90s
04:16:47 <andythenorth> wrong foster :)
04:16:58 <supermop> the real building is one of my favorite structures in the world,
04:17:16 <supermop> and got me interested in the metabolist movement
04:17:37 <supermop> and i found out about it due to playing tt in 1994
04:17:40 * DanMacK thinks the capsule tower is awesome
04:17:53 <supermop> they might tear it down this year...
04:17:59 <supermop> i am pretty upset
04:18:09 <DanMacK> They've been talking about that for years though
04:18:14 <supermop> i have visited it twice, been inside once
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04:18:34 <supermop> it really should get landmarked and a proper rehab
04:18:34 <DanMacK> cool
04:18:46 <supermop> its in a poor state
04:18:50 <supermop> fine structurally
04:19:02 <supermop> but totally neglected and unappreciated
04:19:27 <DanMacK> agreed. I'm surprised the style didn't cattch on
04:19:37 <supermop> ad, like may building of that size in tokyo, it iss owned as a coop of condos
04:20:30 <supermop> so the people living there just want to tear it down and mortgage the land to build a generic new building like you see all over town
04:21:19 <supermop> there is no way that some passionate party could step in to buy it and fix it up
04:21:38 <supermop> it is catching on,
04:21:43 <andythenorth_> sounds like Bombay
04:21:46 <supermop> but much later, and if a different way
04:21:50 <andythenorth_> lots of art-deco apartment buildings
04:21:56 <andythenorth_> owned by coops
04:22:06 <andythenorth_> being replaced by 15 story concrete towers
04:22:35 <supermop> but modualr prefab and mass-customization are big emerging trends in archiecture now
04:22:45 <supermop> for low impact low density housing
04:23:05 <supermop> rather than the medium density that the metabolists envisioned
04:23:26 <DanMacK> :/
04:24:06 <supermop> the nakagin is respected among young architects, but not its occupants
04:24:16 <supermop> first time i went to go see it
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04:24:53 <supermop> the information kiosk ladies at ginza subway station had no idea it existed, despite being a 5 minut walk away
04:25:28 <DanMacK> weird
04:25:48 <supermop> my japanese was much better then,
04:25:54 <DanMacK> it's definitely something you'd notice
04:26:22 <supermop> but i had to sketch the building, describe its concept, try to write the kanji for its name
04:26:56 <supermop> eventually they pulled out some huge book of super detailed maps of the neighborhood from the 70s
04:27:09 <supermop> haas all of the easment lines and utilites on it
04:27:22 <supermop> obviously not a tourist atlas
04:27:46 <supermop> most recently in 2009, i went theere with a japanese friend,
04:28:21 <supermop> who haad learned about kisho kurokawa in school, but was unaware of that building being there
04:29:46 <supermop> Anyway
04:29:49 <DanMacK> sheesh, it's like they're trying to bury it or something
04:30:21 <supermop> a desire to reimplement that building in ottd is what got me drawing sprites last year in the first place
04:31:08 <DanMacK> Did you draw the OpenGFX version or was that done before?
04:32:29 <supermop> i would not abide it,
04:32:35 <supermop> so no
04:33:07 <supermop> the idea for that building became one for a metabolist town set
04:34:32 <supermop> as the metabolist movement really seemed fitting with TT's ideal vission of growth and infrastructure as progress
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04:35:26 <supermop> that idea led to ideas about rescaling
04:37:39 <andythenorth_> rescaling TTD, or the set? :P
04:37:47 <supermop> my st
04:37:50 <supermop> set
04:38:03 <supermop> from 12 to 8 meters per tile, roughly
04:38:06 <supermop> for houses
04:38:29 <supermop> and maybe even 4 meters
04:38:39 <supermop> to see if it could work
04:39:11 <andythenorth_> TTD scale is quite variable :P
04:39:14 <supermop> that led to thoughts of a more realistically scaled modular station set to go with the town set
04:39:35 <supermop> which led to my sheds
04:40:15 <supermop> the reason they are so tall, is that i am leaning gradually towards a larger scale with them
04:43:42 <supermop> this purple still looks so weird to me
04:43:51 <supermop> especially up close in PS
04:46:44 <supermop> but the glass-greens i used for the early modern depot clerestory windows would not look right for supposidly clear glass
04:47:39 <supermop> i should just model and render these, then paint over them in 8bpp
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04:53:13 <supermop> Hey Andy, do you have time to look at a png of one sprite?
04:58:05 <andythenorth_> maybe
04:59:55 <supermop> nothing urgent
05:00:23 <supermop> should probably give it a rest for the night anyway and start to get ready for bed
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07:26:37 <planetmaker> moin
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08:12:30 <Terkhen> good morning
08:14:07 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
08:14:52 <planetmaker> hehe. I wrote an answer in the iPod/... thread. And deleted it before hitting 'submit' ;-) - it contained also the sentence you wrote :-)
08:15:44 <Terkhen> :)
08:15:57 <Terkhen> well, if you want to go for cheap or free, windows is not an option
08:16:09 <planetmaker> quite so
08:16:31 <Terkhen> IIRC Mac OS is quite cheap in comparison, and linux is free
08:16:44 <planetmaker> I paid about 30€ for this, yes
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08:17:22 <Ammler> in most cases, windows is as free as linux
08:17:51 <planetmaker> not really
08:17:55 <Terkhen> yes, as long as someone pays, they get a profit :P
08:17:56 <Ammler> maybe even cheaper :-)
08:18:01 <planetmaker> you can go to the computer vendor and ask for a refund
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08:18:11 <Terkhen> I usually use whatever version came with my laptop
08:18:12 <Ammler> planetmaker: not in every country
08:18:23 <planetmaker> when it comes with a new one. Well. But in the whole EU
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08:43:38 <Terkhen> meh, I have spent a day checking an error and it seems to be caused by floating point precision
08:44:18 <planetmaker> :-D those are somewhat the worst
08:44:49 * andythenorth needs to learn how stations work with rail type overlays :o
08:44:52 <andythenorth> or not
08:48:06 * andythenorth wonders where bit 31 is lurking in station prop 09
08:49:07 <andythenorth> ummm
08:49:49 * andythenorth goes right off the idea of doing a station set
08:51:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you need to use a specific ground tile. I forgot the number, yexo knows
08:51:50 <andythenorth> it's possible that I have badly misjudged how complicated stations are :(
08:52:12 <andythenorth> to deal with different railtypes is going to be horrible
08:52:20 <planetmaker> why?
08:52:24 <planetmaker> you don't care about
08:54:50 <andythenorth> I think I just don't understand the spec yet
08:54:55 <andythenorth> it must be possible
08:55:33 <andythenorth> I fail to see how to draw the base sprite + have track appear on it
08:55:49 <andythenorth> (ground sprite)
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08:59:23 <andythenorth> so where is bit 31 in a dword?
08:59:44 <andythenorth> 00 00 F0 00 ?
09:00:11 <andythenorth> and what does station prop 13 bit 0 do?
09:00:12 <andythenorth>
09:00:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I mean it literally: as station you don't care about the railtype you are
09:01:04 <planetmaker> the only thing you need to do is to use a specific ground tile and it's handled automatically
09:01:16 <planetmaker> like 0x3FD or alike.
09:03:01 <larsemil> morning
09:03:05 <Terkhen> hi larsemil
09:03:10 <planetmaker> moin
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09:04:01 <larsemil> wadduP?
09:14:44 <dihedral> morning
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09:20:16 * andythenorth finds another glitch with PBS overlays
09:20:24 <andythenorth> stations like ISR marshalling yard
09:21:31 <V453000> that one is bad imo :( does not fit actual rails
09:22:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I'm not entirely sure that the overlays are used...
09:22:31 <planetmaker> I think the full rail is drawn. But... it would need confirmation
09:23:00 <andythenorth> last time I checked, the overlays include ballast pieces
09:23:13 <planetmaker> the pbs overlays don't.
09:23:18 <andythenorth> iirc, there is a valid case for that somewhere, but it causes numerous other glitches
09:23:23 * andythenorth checks
09:27:01 <planetmaker> to check my words: ballast = the stones and stuff. sleepers = only the things it's screwed on?
09:27:05 <andythenorth> might be different in opengfx
09:27:19 <andythenorth> hmm
09:27:26 <andythenorth> the sleepers show not ballast, yes
09:27:28 <planetmaker> I doubt that
09:27:29 <andythenorth> you're correct
09:27:36 <planetmaker> :-)
09:27:51 <andythenorth> the effect with ISR marshalling yard is bizarre, because it has missing pixels
09:27:55 <andythenorth> this one is probably an ISR problem
09:31:02 * andythenorth wonders if rail junctions *always* had sleepers from one line drawn above the rails of another line?
09:31:41 <__ln___> that doesn't sound realistic at least
09:32:47 <andythenorth> think it was always the case, looking at screenshots of ttd
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09:40:49 * andythenorth is baffled on about five fronts and will have tea
09:40:59 <andythenorth> today is not a day for creating newgrf clearly
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09:55:56 <planetmaker> then make a trip into the bombay suburbs or country side ;-)
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11:13:54 <zydeco> greetings
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11:18:34 <Terkhen> hi zydeco
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12:55:15 <sla_ro|master> i got activetcl with expect, where to install activetcl ?
12:55:24 <sla_ro|master> *autopilot
12:59:48 <planetmaker> whereever you want to run openttd from
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13:31:31 <dihedral> \o/ my EQ8 is ready
13:31:35 <dihedral> AND i have my /27 subnet
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14:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> what am i doing wrong when it spams 300 errors about SLF_SAVE_NO (and similar) errors when compiling settings.cpp in settings.h?
14:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... works now... must be a hiccups when updating
14:13:16 <Belugas> hello
14:14:32 <andythenorth> quak
14:14:37 <andythenorth> wrong animal :P
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14:35:05 <Eddi|zuHause> happy Aschermittwoch ;)
14:35:44 <peter1138> Happy what?
14:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, that's the day where carnival season ends
14:36:20 <Eddi|zuHause> where people "get serious" again
14:36:52 <peter1138> Ah, so you're going to be no fun from now until when?
14:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> 11.11.11 11:11
14:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause> leo says it translates to "Ash Wednesday"
14:38:32 <peter1138> That's quite a long period :S
14:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> germans are serious most of the time :p
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14:40:17 <Wolf01> hello
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14:49:32 <confound> what does the little plus or cross to the left of some engines in the engine list (manage trains or new engine) mean?
14:49:52 <confound> (this is ukrs)
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14:53:58 <planetmaker> click it
14:54:16 <rane> what if it blows up the world
14:54:28 <planetmaker> oh, wait. There can be three different symbols.
14:54:35 <planetmaker> It tells you it's running good profit
14:54:55 <planetmaker> if you talk, for example, about the list of all trains you have.
14:55:09 <planetmaker> it has a "-" if it's running a loss
14:55:19 <planetmaker> and a normal coin if it is running a small profit
14:57:07 <planetmaker> confound, see
14:58:22 <confound> no, this is when choosing a new vehicle, not next to an existing train.
14:58:53 <planetmaker> got a screenshot for me?
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15:00:22 <confound> jussec
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15:01:22 <confound>
15:02:55 <confound> I thought at first it was a reminder like "this engine needs electrified rails" or something, but it's turned up next to some steam engines
15:07:00 <planetmaker> sorry, no idea right now
15:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (4+8)*4+4*2
15:08:04 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 56
15:08:28 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc ((4+8)*4+4*2)/4)
15:08:28 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
15:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc ((4+8)*4+4*2)/4
15:08:32 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 14
15:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (4*4+(8+4)*2)/(8+4)
15:09:09 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 3.33333333333
15:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (4*4+(8+4)*2)
15:09:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 40
15:11:01 <confound> maybe it's something UKRS-specific and I should look there.
15:11:59 <Sacro> Yeah, it is UKRS
15:12:27 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 48/8
15:12:27 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 6
15:13:26 <confound> Sacro: do you know offhand what it means?
15:13:35 <Sacro> I'm trying to remember :P
15:13:56 <confound> heh
15:14:50 * Sacro wonders if pikka is here
15:18:33 <Wolf01> oh, sacro, again with us? :)
15:20:45 <Sacro> yup
15:20:51 <Sacro> I idle always :P
15:21:09 <Wolf01> me too
15:22:17 <andythenorth> @seen pikka
15:22:17 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 3 days, 4 hours, 53 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Pikka> turkish spam on turkish bread?
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15:25:15 <confound> sounds good to me
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16:07:07 <supermop> good morning
16:08:01 <Yexo> good evening
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16:08:27 <supermop> how's it going?
16:08:48 <supermop> I haven't implemented that new code yet
16:09:03 <Yexo> holiday this week, so fine :)
16:09:18 <supermop> but i am drawing some more more sprites now,
16:09:38 <supermop> to creat a 4th generation, for monorail, HSR, and Maglev
16:10:01 <supermop> the monorail's roof will be taller, so i want to finish that, then use it for the templates
16:10:49 <supermop> you can look about 12 hours ago in the logs to see all sorts of boring rumination by me about depot architecture
16:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 8*2+8
16:27:27 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 24
16:27:38 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (8*2+8)/8*2
16:27:38 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 6
16:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (8*2+8)/(8*2)
16:27:43 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.5
16:30:00 <supermop> hmm?
16:31:31 <frosch123> while i use @calc 1 + 1 in queries to dorpsgek to test whether my connection broke down, i think eddi should definitely improve his mental arithmetics
16:33:10 <supermop> yeah
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16:45:28 <Eddi|zuHause> nah... my mental arithmetics is fine as it is ;)
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17:00:29 <dihedral> if he changed any part of his mentaliy it would no longer be Eddi|zuHause, would it now ;-)
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17:40:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... in nml, the curvature info is split up into three variables, how can i access the "unsplit" variable? (
17:40:55 <supermop> any germans around?
17:41:00 <supermop> oh there we go
17:41:54 <supermop> what gender would you give to quesadilla, if you had to?
17:42:11 <supermop> if you were borrowing it into a german sentence
17:42:51 * confound tries again
17:42:58 <confound> anyone know what the + next to some engines is here?
17:43:01 <Terkhen> it's feminine in spanish
17:43:07 <supermop> yeah
17:43:30 <Eddi|zuHause>
17:43:33 <andythenorth_> good night
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17:43:40 <Terkhen> confound: looks like something specific to the train set, you might have more luck asking at the set thread
17:43:49 <confound> yeah, it's ukrs-specific
17:43:51 <confound> thanks
17:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: above wikipedia entry suggests female
17:44:07 <supermop> but i am having a ridiculous conversation in german with a friend,
17:44:21 <supermop> about a fleischdilla
17:44:46 <supermop> and a fleischdillabde
17:45:01 <confound> haha
17:45:37 <supermop> no
17:45:41 <supermop> sorry
17:45:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean a "Bude" ;)
17:46:11 <supermop> yeah
17:46:20 <supermop> its been along time
17:46:20 <Eddi|zuHause> putting in diacritics where they don't belong is very dangerous
17:46:41 <supermop> learnt that word in 1997, have used it maybe 3 times since
17:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> words get completely different meaning, or completely unrecognizable...
17:47:29 <supermop> i need to improve my german greatly
17:47:50 <supermop> i have completely forgot all of the subjunctive
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17:47:54 <supermop> I and II
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17:48:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you can do without those... :)
17:49:18 <supermop> hehe, hence they were the first i forgot
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17:49:31 <supermop> but now i am losing even the basic stuff
17:53:12 <supermop> actually wikipedi seems to have a lot of writing in subjunctive I
17:53:31 <supermop> that or i am so clueless that it looks like it to me
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17:55:22 <supermop> Hey Yexo, when Chips comes out, could i have my shed grf detect it and use your ground textures instead of mine?
17:55:42 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: passive is common, conditional is not...
17:55:49 <Yexo> you can't use graphics from another grf, you'll have to include them in your grf too
17:55:57 <supermop> thats what i mean
17:56:03 <supermop> but you won't mind?
17:56:09 <Yexo> I don't draw any graphics
17:56:25 <Yexo> andy draws them, they're licensed as gpl, so if you comply with that you're fine
17:56:32 <supermop> ok,
17:56:43 <supermop> i think i made MLSS GPL2
17:57:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: seen my question above?
17:57:52 <Yexo> not yet, but I've seen it now
17:58:25 <Yexo> var[<num>, <shift>, <and-mask>] works for all variables
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18:00:08 <Yexo> var[0x45, 0, 0x0F0F0F] <- that gives you the curvature info
18:00:31 <supermop> i thought subj ii was conditional, subj i was indirect discourse
18:01:16 <Yexo> <supermop> i think i made MLSS GPL2 <- there is nothing about that in the forum topic, but as only author you're free to change the license however you want
18:01:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: thanks
18:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: is that documented somewhere?
18:01:41 <Yexo> don't think so
18:03:00 <supermop> yexo, i thought i noted that on bananas
18:03:09 <supermop> but i can update it
18:03:16 <supermop> it needs a new release soon
18:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause> something different: if i change the sprite for a wagon, it also changes in the vehicle details. is there some way to separate the two?
18:03:27 <supermop> might rewrite it in nml
18:04:47 <Yexo> hmm, vehicle details is the same sprite as the menu list, right?
18:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you sure?
18:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i might try that then
18:06:17 <Yexo> no, that was probably wrong
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18:06:34 <Yexo> I don't think there is any way to separate them
18:06:37 <Yexo> frosch123: any ideas?
18:10:40 <frosch123> currently there is no way to separate them
18:10:55 <frosch123> and no, it is not the purchase sprite, nor would it work
18:11:09 <frosch123> as the sprite need to depend on the consist
18:11:55 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe a flag like "in depot" -> "in vehicle details/vehicle list"?
18:12:30 <frosch123> hmm, i thought i wrote something on that topic in the "vehicle views" topic
18:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, they change shape depending which sprite i choose by curvature info, and that doesn't make a lot of sense.
18:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure the airplanes do that as well when they show different sprites for starting/landing
18:14:42 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: currently the sprite is not resolved for the gui
18:14:55 <frosch123> but cached and only updated when the vehicle moves
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18:15:39 <frosch123> <- found it
18:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not really sure i understand everything you say there...
18:20:26 <frosch123> it's mainly about: currently the sprite is resolved when the vehicle turns, and then always the same sprite is drawn on the map, the gui or whereever
18:21:09 <frosch123> you can remove the caching and resolve the sprite for every drawing. that way you get more freedom what to draw (as you do not space to store the result)
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18:22:00 <frosch123> the rest is about not having a idea whether the current caching actually speeds anything up, or whether it just a waste of time to resolve and cache sprites for vehicles which are not drawn at all
18:22:54 <frosch123> (though of course one could also try to resolve the sprite only on first use, and then cache it; but that is not what ttd/ottd does)
18:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> what about ignoring the cache in the GUI?
18:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> or having a separate GUI cache
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18:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> where in the code is this cache?
18:27:47 <frosch123> hmm, actually i might be totally wrong :s
18:30:08 <frosch123> yeah, looks like the caching is only done for on-the-map
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18:31:13 <frosch123> so, maybe we should just pass something via var 10 when drawing for the gui
18:31:46 <frosch123> iirc var 10 already passing something for drawing other stuff
18:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the specs are a bit low on words for usage of var 10
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18:40:57 <pasky_> someone should write a turing machine emulator newgrf
18:41:13 <frosch123> newgrfs are not turing complete
18:41:17 <frosch123> (intentional)
18:43:34 <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically they are (save memory space), but only during loading stage
18:44:28 <pasky_> hmm, it's been a long time
18:45:26 <Terkhen> what are they missing?
18:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: during callbacks, you can't make loops
18:46:06 <frosch123> they are only decision trees
18:46:11 <Yexo> which is sometimes annoying
18:46:13 <Terkhen> hmm... I see
18:46:21 <Yexo> I do have a use-case for a simple loop
18:46:36 <frosch123> really?
18:46:53 <Yexo> a station with a buffer on a single side
18:47:06 <Yexo> autodetect which side borders the most industry tiles and build the buffer on that side
18:47:14 <Yexo> it can be done without a loop, but it's easier with one
18:47:52 <frosch123> well, you have procedures :)
18:47:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: why not use rail continuation information for buffers?
18:48:12 <Yexo> sorry, I meant platform, not buffer
18:48:20 <supermop> ah
18:48:24 <Yexo> see sprite 19
18:48:54 <Yexo> right now it's a varaction2 with +- 200 operators
18:49:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm doing something wrong... my GDB doesn't show debug information for openttd
18:50:01 <Yexo> did you configure with --enable-debug ?
18:50:10 <Yexo> try --enable-debug=3 if you used a lower level
18:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure i did
18:50:44 <Yexo> frosch123: already using procedures, but there use is limited when you have two values that constantly change
18:50:48 <pasky_> hmm, somehow i got it stuck in my mind that loops are possible in newgrfs, but i think i was really wrong
18:51:05 <Yexo> pasky_: loops are possible in the grf loading stage, just not during callbacks
18:51:12 <pasky_> how are they done in loading stage?
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18:51:24 <peter1138> goto :)
18:51:28 <Yexo> action 9 jumping to an action 10 that was defined before it
18:52:02 <pasky> oh so it can jump to previous labels
18:52:12 <pasky> somehow the specs confused me
18:52:18 <pasky> should've looked at the code directly :)
18:52:19 <pasky> thanks
18:52:44 <Yexo> Since 2.0.1 alpha 70, duplicate labels are fully supported. The jump will always be to the first matching label that follows. If no matching label follows, the first matching label in the file will be used instead.
18:52:52 <Yexo> ^^ spec looks pretty clear to me
18:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i had this weird effect before: a crashlog can resolve the backtrace, but gdb cannot
18:53:50 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: strange, now idea how that can happen
18:55:11 <pasky> Yexo: of course if you read all of it, i just glanced at "skips sprites" in the description :)
18:55:52 <frosch123> pasky: you are lucky that noone of us knows what you implemented yourself :p
18:56:07 <Yexo> don't blame the specs when you don't read them all :)
18:56:09 <pasky> ;-)
18:57:23 <pasky> frosch123: no, at my times there were no labels yet
18:57:35 <pasky> just checked
18:58:34 <frosch123> ah, bad luck for you. your stuff is already in the new svn
18:58:38 <frosch123> so blame works :p
18:58:59 <pasky> :P
18:59:13 <pasky> i'm using the git mirror of course :)
19:00:23 <pasky> oh there weren't even callbacks, okay, that really was primitive
19:04:38 <frosch123> interesting r2130 knows a2 types 80 to 83, but no word and dword stuff
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19:13:58 <supermop> is it just me, or do trees in ottd form areas of primarily one species?
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19:18:41 <frosch123> are you playing tropic?
19:19:50 <supermop> no, just looking at people's screenshots
19:20:13 <supermop> it seems that if you zoom all the way out on a heavily wooded map
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19:20:45 <supermop> instead of being a uniform mix, there are areas that are more pine, or more oak etc
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19:31:37 <Wolf01> supermop, it's more rrrrrrrealistic so, usually trees tend to be grouped because of seeds...
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19:35:07 <supermop> yeah, i like it
19:35:22 <supermop> I was wondering what mechanism ottd uses to acheive this
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20:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be helpful if the sprite picker would not only display the "global" sprite number, but also the "grf-local" sprite number
20:20:18 <Yexo> I don't think that information is still available
20:20:43 <frosch123> yup, not available
20:21:09 <frosch123> err, wait, it is
20:21:12 <frosch123> due to 32bpp
20:21:44 <frosch123> the spritecache knows the number, but that is quite hidden
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20:29:44 <anonymou> What revision do most players online use?
20:30:28 <peter1138> Check
20:30:57 <anonymou> peter1138: Thanks.
20:31:27 <anonymou> Stable it is, then.
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20:42:20 <anonymou> Anybody want to test an OS X build?
20:43:22 <frosch123> <- that one?
20:43:49 <anonymou> One for 1.0.5.
20:44:25 <frosch123> what's the point in testing 1.0.5? :p
20:44:44 <anonymou> No OS X bundle and seems the majority of the servers use it.
20:44:47 <anonymou> I'm sure the code is fine.
20:44:52 <anonymou> Just not sure about the bundle.
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20:46:19 <zydeco> what could be wrong about it?
20:46:26 <planetmaker> anonymou: there are several people who offer them. And 1.0.5 is... somewhat... a discontinued branch ;-)
20:46:38 <anonymou> Oh.
20:46:40 <anonymou> Good to know.
20:46:48 <anonymou> Though, don't tell the people running the servers.
20:47:00 <anonymou> Only thing I could think of are dependency issues.
20:47:02 <planetmaker> there are no official 1.0.x builds
20:47:12 <planetmaker> and yes, deps are the usual thing which fail
20:47:18 <planetmaker> If you don't build with static
20:47:34 <Rubidium> zydeco: at the most general level: missing files
20:47:34 <zydeco> otool -L should show what it depends on
20:47:55 <planetmaker> also good evening everyone :-)
20:47:59 <Rubidium> either the license, or required files such as translations
20:48:14 <anonymou> Forget it.
20:48:29 <anonymou> I'll go with 1.1.0
20:48:44 <peter1138> Which doesn't exist? :D
20:48:45 <planetmaker> ./configure --enable-universal --enable-static && make bundle_zip
20:49:00 <planetmaker> hehe
20:49:14 <anonymou> Well, the RC.
20:49:21 <anonymou> Picky, picky.
20:49:22 <planetmaker> there are two
20:49:44 <planetmaker> yes, picky. Because it matters. A lot
20:49:53 * anonymou leaves for less ornery endeavors.
20:50:41 <anonymou> What's the differences between RC1 and 2?
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20:51:53 <Yexo> anonymou: go to and click on "changelog" on the right
20:51:59 <zydeco> bugfixes?
20:52:22 <planetmaker> crash fixes even ;-)
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21:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <-- i seem to be doing something wrong. case 1 and 3 don't seem to be reached, i only get 2 and 4 ingame
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21:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> (for reference)
21:07:42 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: front->cur = 45* curve. cur->next = 45* curve, but front->next = no curve?
21:07:48 <Yexo> seems like impossible combination to me
21:08:07 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... right... mixed up the numbers
21:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the weird thing is: i checked exactly that before, and then shuffled it around...
21:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i must have been drunk or something :p
21:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> seems to work now
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21:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> having a vehicle drive while ctrl+b (bounding boxes) is active leaves stale white lines behind
21:22:40 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: not only in that case...
21:22:42 <frosch123> already mentioned in the commit log back then
21:22:45 <SmatZ> it's mostly a debug feature :P
21:24:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand how i can deterministically derive the anchor point of a sprite...
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21:26:55 <frosch123> for most sprites it is the back corner of the bounding box
21:27:08 <frosch123> the one which is not drawn :)
21:28:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i need to single-step a train :(
21:28:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (back and forth)
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22:49:06 <Wolf01> 'night
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23:03:43 <Terkhen> good night
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