IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-02-22
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02:54:42 <nicfer1> did anyone ever think of a trainset with no 'arbitrary' max speed for trains?
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02:55:47 <supermop> you mean just use the horse power to calculate how fast it can go?
02:56:02 <nicfer1> horse power, tractive effort and weight basically
02:56:17 <supermop> there is also air drag
02:56:20 <nicfer1> and wagon's speed limits
02:56:55 <supermop> conceivably, if the wagons have a limited speed, so would te locomotive
02:57:23 <supermop> for example, the redline of the engine, or the point at which the wheels melt
02:57:54 <nicfer1> that would become the 'new' speedlimit for locomotives
02:58:13 <krinn> going fine thanks nicfer1 :P (what a late reply)
02:58:18 <supermop> yeah I think people has discussed it before
02:59:17 <supermop> in 2cc i belive the wagons have no hard limit on speed,
02:59:41 <supermop> which they can operate above, but at increased running cost
03:01:45 <supermop> i guess you could imagine 'Rocket' being pushed by an HST at 125 mph
03:02:05 <nicfer1> that way, players will need more planning on how to build the trains so they're fast without making them too expensive to mantain
03:02:15 <supermop> which would cause pretty severe damage to rocket, but at least it would be going that fast
03:03:49 <supermop> you often have no way to force a train to drive slower than its potential speed
03:04:19 <supermop> so if a train can easily do 120 mph, but is more expensive to run over 100,
03:04:35 <nicfer1> maglev wouldn't have those 'fixed' limit speeds, or maybe have a very high one
03:04:36 <supermop> there is no way to force it to run at exactly 100
03:05:23 <supermop> if the maglev went fast enough, either the magnetic coils in the track would burn out, or the front f the train would ablate off
03:06:18 <supermop> we could just use 'c' as a hard speed limit, with exponential running cost as one approaces c
03:09:07 <nicfer1> speaking of maglev, I find it somehow 'too much railway change'
03:09:40 <supermop> So have many national networks,
03:09:43 <krinn> or do like in life: increase speed = increase running costs because of decrease reliability
03:10:02 <supermop> currently one one maglev line earns any revenue
03:10:32 <nicfer1> I mean, in year 2000 you get monorail, you upgrade all your network only for finding that in 2020 you have to upgrade again to maglev
03:11:11 <supermop> well you could get monorail in 1960, if someone wanted to make an Alweg set
03:11:36 <supermop> but monorail was never intended to be a heavy rail replacement
03:12:30 <nicfer1> in that point I like more the NuTracks system
03:18:15 <nicfer1> and I think one railset changed maglev to be pax-based rather than all-cargos-lightning-transport
03:22:48 <supermop> any set could do that
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04:16:37 <nicfer1> it was on ttdpatch where you could configure maglev trains to run on monorail, isn't it?
04:27:04 <supermop> it would be possible in ottd as well if someone were to make the appropriate newgrf
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04:28:27 <glx> openttd can have maglev and monorail at the same time, but as ttdpatch can't most newgrf provide only one type
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08:10:05 <dnicholls> do nightlies always have a minor version one higher than the latest stable?
08:13:42 <Terkhen> dnicholls: they have a version higher than the latest branch; since 1.1.0 is branched already now nightlies use 1.2.0
08:15:26 <Yexo> dnicholls: all work currently done in trunk is going to be part of 1.2, but not of 1.1
08:15:37 <Yexo> bugfixes are backported to the 1.1 branch
08:21:13 <dnicholls> so I perform a version check in Action 7 for \dx12000000, would that match all 1.2.x stables and all nightlies built after 1.1.0 and before 1.2.0 ?
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08:22:20 <Yexo> it'll match every nightly since r22083 and every 1.x.y stable with x >= 2
08:23:00 <Yexo> depending on the things you skip, you might need to use action9 instead of action7 though
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08:38:03 <dnicholls> and if I want to check for r22084 or later, the Action 7 should check for versions higher than (\dx12000000 + \d22083) ?
08:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> use \wx1200 and \w22083
08:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (well, the other way around)
08:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (this will work until r65535, then you'll have to do it more complicated)
08:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> (by the current rate, that is somewhere around 20 years :))
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09:31:39 <Capeguy> I need some help on cyclotrons...
09:32:10 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
09:32:55 <Terkhen> although I have no clue of what that is (in this context)
09:33:18 <Capeguy> Can anyone help me by sending me a copypaste file of a cyclotron?
09:33:31 <Capeguy> I cant get mine working with the pf.yapf tihngy set to 1/true
09:34:57 <Capeguy> It holds a SL train at full speed until there's a ML space
09:36:22 <Capeguy> I had that savegame, but I cant find it T_T
09:39:02 <Terkhen> Capeguy: search at their wiki or at the forum for cyclotron
09:39:34 <Capeguy> Searched. Cant find one which is compatitble with my version
09:39:51 <Capeguy> Mine's a little older cause the new ones cant have the copypaste patch
09:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there's only one solution then: build one yourself.
09:40:39 <Terkhen> I don't think much people will be playing with old versions here either
09:41:37 <Capeguy> Eddi, I tried making one, with the logics and stuff like that. But it doesn't work cause of the repeative logic of the trains =X
09:42:08 <Capeguy> Terk, yea, unless I can find the copypaste patch for the latest version.
09:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Capeguy: afaik someone is working on updating it. need to wait a bit.
09:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause> don't know if chills patch pack has it
09:46:18 <Capeguy> Yikes, I'll try and recreate a cyclotron myself
09:46:20 <Terkhen> but building that thing by yourself will probably be faster and you will not need to rely in a patch for playing
09:49:35 <Capeguy> Terk, what patch are you talking about?
09:51:19 <Terkhen> I did not mention any patch but using search you will find it in no time
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12:13:02 <JamesG> What do you need help with?
12:14:18 <DanMacK> What do you need help with vb?
12:15:00 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
12:21:54 <Terkhen> I find it simpler to count its place backwards :)
12:22:45 <vb> why i can't add any new grf while playing?
12:23:03 <vb> i have some grfs but it misses something
12:24:25 <Yexo> because it has never been supported, it can cause any kind of problems ranging from simple graphical glitches to crashes
12:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you're going to have to start a new game
12:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it didn't "work" before, it just did not complain enough
12:25:32 <Yexo> there were some cases were it worked, but it caused a lot of trouble because _most_ people didn't know when they were able to use it safely
12:25:48 <Terkhen> everything is explained at that thread :)
12:26:10 <vb> but i don't have any ships to collect water stuff
12:26:33 <Terkhen> hmm... we should have a FAQ
12:26:39 <perk11> vb: enable newgrf developers tools
12:26:43 <Yexo> we have one, or several I think
12:26:53 <Terkhen> correction, an updated FAQ
12:27:26 <perk11> newgrf_developer_tools = true
12:27:55 <Terkhen> just don't get mad when you get glitches / crashes
12:27:55 <perk11> but use it at your own risk
12:28:32 <Terkhen> but yes, it's not really intended for this, it's called "newgrf developer tools" for a reason
12:28:40 <perk11> some problems may appear after some years
12:28:54 <Yexo> scenario_developer might be a better setting to advise
12:29:08 <Yexo> it doesn't enable the newgrf inspect button on all kinds of windows
12:29:41 <vb> now what ship mod i need for firs?
12:32:18 <DanMacK> FISH is your best bet
12:33:56 <vb> that's good, i added 2 new grf, fish and bauxite wagon
12:34:35 <planetmaker> the errors only become apparent usually after people played for (game) years
12:35:31 <planetmaker> and bauxite wagon... the better guess is opengfx+trains. you can disable engines, if you only need wagons.
12:35:57 <vb> i'm using the american trains, even though i don't like american stuff
12:36:28 <Yexo> why are you not starting a new game? apparently you're using trains you don't like and you didn't have any ships
12:36:36 <vb> and nu tracks, which are a PAIN IN THE ass
12:36:54 <vb> by pain in the ass i mean expensive
12:37:28 <vb> also i played like 100 years or so
12:37:53 <vb> only 41 counted because i used the year cheat :))
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12:45:13 <vb> ok, so removing nu tracks while playing is not ok
12:50:01 <SmatZ> removing any newgrf while playing is not ok :p
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13:03:03 <DanMacK> Smatz, agreed it isn't but if you do do it, be prepared for the consequences
13:05:01 <Chaot_s> hi all has someone got a screnshot for a 3 track terminus i cant get the signaling right. i'm stil to damned stupid to find it out :D
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13:05:47 <Chaot_s> been googling and wikiíng for hours now :D
13:05:55 <Yexo> a station with 3 tracks and 1 track in and 1 track out?
13:06:37 <Chaot_s> 1 in, 1out, 3 trackstation. not ro-ro, terminus :D
13:06:59 <Yexo> you can make a terminus station with 2-track station?
13:07:12 <Yexo> and are you using pbs signals or block signals?
13:07:56 <Chaot_s> i tried lots of things, they alway take the midle lane, and the second train que's right in front of it, blocking it's exit :D
13:08:35 <Yexo> put a pbs signal at the end of the entry and remove all signals in front of the station
13:09:44 <vb> trains kept blocking in stations
13:10:13 <Chaot_s> Yexo : that sounds like a good idea, though. wont that give punishments (points) when a train is forced to turn around?
13:10:38 <Yexo> what kind of punishments are you thinking of?
13:11:08 <Yexo> the only penalty there is for turning around is that the train takes longer to reach is destination, which means a lower payment
13:11:36 <Chaot_s> i'm not sure, editing openttd.cfg i saw ome thing that talked about penalty turning around.
13:11:56 <Yexo> that's a pathfinder penalty
13:12:07 <Chaot_s> okay :D just asking :D
13:12:12 <Yexo> just ignore it as long as you don't understand it
13:12:13 <vb> perk, i say remove those 3 signals
13:12:21 <vb> and make the right one as one of the red ones
13:12:38 <Yexo> perk11: the signals facing the station can be left out
13:12:48 <Chaot_s> hmm i cant get the image :S
13:14:19 <Yexo> SmatZ: bottom-left has one signal turned the wrong way
13:14:46 <perk11> SmatZ: and why use pbs on normal tracks?
13:15:21 <SmatZ> perk11: some people do that...
13:15:21 <perk11> and the variant with path-signals is the slowest one
13:15:22 <Yexo> why not? it's easier to use the same signal type everywhere, so always using pbs seems fine
13:15:50 <perk11> *variant with presignals is
13:17:02 <Chaot_s> hmm, i had the uper one, wit a one way path on the exit :D
13:17:29 <Chaot_s> that one kept jaming everything in the midle lane :D
13:17:32 <perk11> unless you have a veeery large station
13:17:50 <Chaot_s> i'm just plaing for about 10 day's :D
13:17:51 <perk11> but than you should make more complex, anyway
13:18:11 <Chaot_s> ther is 530 trains for me :D
13:18:30 <Chaot_s> and some rather large stations, (20+tracks)
13:18:34 <Yexo> Chaot_s: either of those 3 will work fine, if the trains jammed on your station you didn't make it exactly like one of those
13:18:35 <Chaot_s> fed with 5 mainlines :D
13:18:51 <perk11> Chaot_s: good for you, I played about a month, before I found out that there are different types of signals
13:19:58 <Chaot_s> i most of the time search for wiki's :D
13:20:12 <Chaot_s> that tends to be helpfull a lot of time's :D
13:21:02 <Chaot_s> perk11 : even though i couldn't load the picture, thanx for the help :D
13:21:13 <SmatZ> hmm why did I name it "3roro", when it is a terminus :x
13:21:18 <Chaot_s> dame goes for SmatZ :D
13:22:36 <Chaot_s> hotkeys do speed up a lot too :D
13:23:00 <Chaot_s> instead of constantly needing to click everything perk11
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13:36:48 <vb> if i set trains to never expire
13:36:55 <vb> i will allways have them avaiable in depot to buy?
13:38:58 <Chaot_s> if i split a station by removing one midle track, will that still allow me to "transfer" from one part of the station to a other part?
13:39:38 <Yexo> you don't even have to build the middle track, just ctrl+click when building the second part of the station
13:39:40 <Chaot_s> got 22.000 tov coal...
13:39:53 <Chaot_s> that needs some moving :D
13:40:39 <Chaot_s> kind of getting very huge now :D
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13:41:52 <Chaot_s> this game would be unbareble to play via lan / internet :D
13:42:34 <vb> i played on a server where i had like 5 fps
13:42:38 <vb> trains and tracks everywhere
13:42:43 <vb> everyone was using just 1 company
13:43:00 <Chaot_s> 2048x2048 map, with (leftovers from when it was a lan game) 524Trains of me, and 1500 in total
13:43:22 <vb> oh yeah, and hundreds of years passed in that game
13:43:26 <Chaot_s> meglev 16 blocks, (32 car's) main transport from hubs :D
13:43:28 <Nite> max stationsize chaot_s ??
13:43:40 <Chaot_s> max station is 64 i think :D
13:43:41 <Yexo> Nite: doesn't really matter
13:43:47 <Yexo> total number of trains has way more impact
13:44:24 <Chaot_s> it doesn't impact on lan, wan / inet it's unplayeble :D
13:44:27 <Nite> Yexo: i just wanted to know how how long a 22 KT coaltrain has to be
13:44:34 <Chaot_s> eighter disconnect, or laaaaaaag
13:44:56 <Chaot_s> Nite : not a train, its stored on the station.
13:45:06 <Chaot_s> and needs to be moved :D
13:45:23 <Chaot_s> and 22Kt in trains... 22.000 / 37 :D
13:46:00 <Chaot_s> that would mean.... 595 cars :D
13:47:58 <Nite> depending on newgrf waggons u use
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13:48:45 <Chaot_s> adding a lev4 in front and the end... and see :) you need a length of 597 cars and 299 blocks :S
13:48:55 <Chaot_s> normal trainset i think.
13:49:43 <Chaot_s> default coal for maglev takes 37 tons of coal
13:51:20 <Chaot_s> 90 normal trains feed the station, 13 lev's move it from the hub to a energy plant some 900 blocks away :D
13:51:39 <vb> industrial station renewal are nice
13:59:16 <Nite> did anything change about the "automatic order view" btw?
13:59:22 <Chaot_s> btw, how come i only transport ~80% of the produced amount.
14:00:00 <planetmaker> and newer and faster vehicles
14:00:31 <Nite> teh new vehicle = rating up thing sucks for years now
14:00:51 <Chaot_s> while there are l8 trains @a statue?
14:01:06 <Nite> especially for competition servers, which i happen to not play anymore (but for different reasons)
14:01:38 <Nite> a statue in town raises rating of all stations on its "land" - with its name
14:02:13 <Nite> so the "automatic order view" still there permanently?
14:03:46 <Chaot_s> i would expect building a statue of yourself would drop your popularity :D
14:04:25 <vb> not in a communist country
14:07:53 <Chaot_s> nearly 4000ton coal :D every month :D
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14:08:50 <Chaot_s> and it never moved away... its been there since 1950, and its now dec 1538 :D
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14:24:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22127 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix: Canals would get drawn as land in the smallmap when using the owner window.
14:33:27 <DanMacK> Fish is a good starter cargo if transported fast...
14:34:57 <Nite> soo ... again ... is the "automatic order view" still there permanently?
14:35:40 <Chaot_s> how can i remove other players (their buildings and stuff) from a savegame played in lan?
14:36:32 <Chaot_s> Nite : what is that? i just want theri company's and all to be removed from this game / map :D
14:42:47 <Chaot_s> save and close game, start in server mode, load map, and reset the company id's from console :D (reset_company <ID>)
14:42:58 <Chaot_s> should do the trick :D
14:47:21 <Nite> well get into the companies and bancrupt them
14:48:16 <Chaot_s> and i don't want to load the cheats menu :D
14:48:24 <Chaot_s> though problem is fixed
14:48:50 <Chaot_s> load it up in a lan game and bankrupt them via console command :D
14:49:09 <Chaot_s> forum and wiki are great.
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14:56:17 <Nite> you can get into the other companies without cheating
14:56:51 <planetmaker> what's the point of 'not cheating' but deleting it on a local server?
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14:57:18 <Chaot_s> indeed planetmaker :D
14:57:30 <Chaot_s> lets now discus how stupid i am :D
14:57:49 <Chaot_s> i just don't know what happens when you open the cheats menu
14:58:11 <Chaot_s> wil that be logged, is it shown somewhere
14:59:11 <Chaot_s> i didn't want to be told that i cheated my way to a company with almost 50.000.000.000
14:59:45 <Chaot_s> beacause in the cheat menu you can higher youre money
14:59:59 <Chaot_s> or wont it show up that the cheats menu is used?
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15:06:04 <Terkhen> it shows up what individual cheats were used
15:07:08 <Nite> ... woudl be kewl if u see bridges on the (owners)map
15:08:36 <krinn> i've saw one day (i think the wiki but can't refind it) a page showing picture with directions on map, anyone got the link to that?
15:10:37 <Nite> Terkhen true thats why the "()"
15:12:00 <planetmaker> Chaot_s, it will be logged in detail what cheat you used. But so will be the other actions
15:12:18 <planetmaker> at least mostly...
15:17:02 <Nite> no one can tell me about the auto order view :<
15:24:56 <Nite> a little yes ort no woudl be enough; is the autoorder view still permanent?
15:29:15 <Nite> or where they called auto stops?
15:29:58 <Belugas> mmmh... too much coffee, i guess...
15:30:28 <Nite> auto undo would be awesome :D
15:31:04 <Nite> i mean these greyed out ordersorders with the
15:31:14 <Nite> i guess i have to try it to see
15:31:25 <Nite> i just cant remember their name
15:33:01 <Nite> yes i was its called auto orders
15:38:35 <Yexo> FS#4404 has been fixed in r21807..r21809, as you can see on the bug report page
15:42:28 <Nite> still turning the veiw on or off in the interface options would be good
15:44:42 <Nite> i think autoorders are a nice idea BUT mostly they mess up the order list *shakes*
15:45:50 <Nite> also as the limit of orders is 255 will you reach that limit with autoorders faster ? or do only real orders count ?
15:46:29 <Yexo> how do they mess up your order list?
15:46:38 <Nite> (i cant find a forum thread about it)
15:46:44 <Yexo> if you want no autoorders, shouldn't you be using non-stop orders instead?
15:46:46 <DJNekkid> i've noticed on the 'nfo wiki' that CB36 also mentions property 07, 21 and 22... are theese now changeable with CB36 as well as their CB10-11-12 friends?
15:47:44 <Yexo> the way I read the wiki they're just listed there because it are also properties that can be changed, although not by cb36
15:47:59 <Nite> well first they pop up than they dissapear, and secondly they lenghthen the list unnecesarrily, thirdly orders change their number which is confusing.
15:48:24 <DJNekkid> Yexo: that is also how i undersood it tbh, but as they were on the list i were wondering :)
15:48:46 <perk11> Nite: but trains actually go to the stations listed in autoorders, stop there and even pick and unload cargo if available
15:48:55 <Nite> yexo no i do not want nonstop - i want trains to stop every statpoin between the end statoins
15:48:56 <perk11> so aren't they worth to be listed?
15:49:35 <Nite> they aRe worth to be listed! yust not in the process of making the order list
15:50:28 <Nite> they offer usefull info! but also can confuse
15:52:08 <Nite> well i guess it has coem across now, turning them on or off would be more tidy
15:57:11 <krinn> now that's serious play!
16:03:07 <perk11> krinn: why do you need 2 monitors?
16:04:19 <krinn> i have 2 and really i need them :P
16:04:39 <krinn> but that's not mines, and i only have 2
16:06:47 <planetmaker> 2 monitors can be *pretty* convenient
16:07:25 <Yexo> indeed, I wouldn't want to work without it anymore
16:07:31 <krinn> i like dev (the text edtior) on left, and keep right for work/test/play
16:08:12 <planetmaker> krinn, I do it vice versa ;-) - My editor is on the right. The testing output on the left one
16:08:41 <Yexo> chat+console left, everything else (browser, editor) on the right
16:08:45 <krinn> lol i suppose it have to do with right/left handed part of the brain :p
16:09:37 <planetmaker> well. I've 8 desktops where I cycle through here. One is e-mail + internet. There the browser is left and e-mail right ;-)
16:10:03 <planetmaker> desktops as in virtual desktops on this machine
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16:10:56 <krinn> i don't really use them, if i compile... i drop the console there, or for vlc
16:10:59 <Yexo> also 4 for me, and actually that's alreayd too much
16:11:12 <planetmaker> 4 would be enough here, too.
16:11:27 <planetmaker> internet, text processing, data processing, other stuff ;-)
16:11:56 <krinn> dunno how you do, intenet for me should be in all workspace :p
16:12:24 <planetmaker> krinn, yes. But do you have a browser and e-mail window open on every one?
16:12:35 <planetmaker> and it's only distraction from work work
16:13:04 <Yexo> I use webmail, the new app tabs in firefox 4 are really nice
16:13:44 <krinn> no, i just use a mail ringer to told me i have new one
16:14:07 <krinn> and the browser is nether far (for documentation...)
16:14:10 <planetmaker> uh, I used that. That's ueber-annoying
16:14:28 <krinn> lol that's why i disable sound to kept only pic anim
16:14:49 <planetmaker> well, even that. No need. People usually can wait a few hours or till my next distraction ;-)
16:15:26 <krinn> at work i have only 1 monitor
16:15:44 <krinn> it's so shit to work on 1 only
16:16:04 <krinn> i shouldn't had try 2 monitors :(
16:16:10 <krinn> can't get back to 1 now
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16:30:47 <Mazur> everyone :No such nick/channel
16:31:59 <krinn> bored can't find what i'm looking for on the wiki
16:34:01 <supermop> thanks for pointing me to those values, planetmaker
16:34:11 <Mazur> 8 virtual desktops: 1: terminals, 2: free/OTTD Stable, 3: Twitter, 4: Browser, 5: Patience, 6: free/OTTD PS, 7: IRC, 8: EMail.
16:34:26 <supermop> so I cannot just make a switch that switches based on railtype?
16:37:38 <planetmaker> Well. yes, you can.
16:37:53 <planetmaker> But the problem is: any depot-only thing doesn't work for the 4 default railtypes
16:38:10 <planetmaker> What you *might* do is the following:
16:38:26 <planetmaker> Do as you do now and additionally replace the default depots as well
16:38:55 <planetmaker> E.g. if you're asked to modify the MONO depot, replace that default monorail depot via replace_sprite also by your version
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16:39:04 <planetmaker> that way it will also work for the default rail types
16:39:22 <planetmaker> except you cannot distinguish rail and erail. Which is not that tragic then, I think
16:39:54 <planetmaker> And it'll have the big advantage, that it is a true 'provides depots only' newgrf, something which I *think* quite a lot of people will like to see
16:41:27 <supermop> so can nml let me handle two different rail grfs (default and other) conditionally in the same grf afterall
16:41:47 <planetmaker> Please elaborate what you mean :-)
16:42:21 <planetmaker> you can replace depots for 16 railtypes and the 3 default depots. All in one grf.
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16:43:59 <planetmaker> and you can of course couple any replacement to whatever condition you like
16:44:20 <Yexo> you can replace the depots for more than 16 railtypes, just not at the same time
16:44:31 <planetmaker> that's what I mean :-)
16:44:56 <planetmaker> And I think in current NML one can now provide the railtype label via parameter.
16:45:03 <planetmaker> so... things got a LOT easier to programme
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16:45:17 <planetmaker> thanks for that, Yexo & Hirundo :-)
16:45:57 <supermop> i really would like to support all of the common rail grfs in just one depot grf
16:47:05 <planetmaker> from what I see: not universal. Rather a large abundance of choice for depots
16:47:34 <planetmaker> supermop, the one thing which IMHO needs the biggest thought (from my POV) is: how do you want to let the user choose what depot is assigned to which railtype?
16:48:26 <Mazur> You're right, of course, planetmaker.
16:48:50 <Mazur> The wish was the father of the thought.
16:49:08 <supermop> so far, I do not provide for that
16:49:11 <planetmaker> Mazur, there's a universal railtype newgrf. So... technically we have that universal depot already
16:49:43 <Terkhen> does that solve the "convert to monorail/maglev problem"?
16:49:50 <Terkhen> or at least helps a bit with it
16:50:01 <supermop> other than allowing someone to modify my grf
16:50:03 <planetmaker> Terkhen, afaik yes. I never used it myself, though
16:50:10 <fonsinchen> damn viewport overlay keeps glitching
16:50:17 <supermop> but i envisioned that if one uses nutracks
16:50:51 <planetmaker> supermop, the only way I currently can imagine is on a per-depot basis:
16:50:57 <planetmaker> one parameter per depot which you have
16:51:02 <Mazur> DIfferent question: You know how I'm building a database of all trains, so is it possible to make a Sandbox with all train grfs, and when starting play remove all but one of them?
16:51:10 <planetmaker> And you assign to that depot a select-able railltype label
16:51:24 <Yexo> planetmaker: so you can't use one depot twice?
16:51:34 <Mazur> I already discovered that oe can no longer add one, even before starting the game.
16:52:04 <planetmaker> Or it'd have to be vice versa. But then you'll have a huge list of railtype labels. But maybe it's better
16:52:08 <Yexo> Mazur: I don't see the point, just start different games each with a single train newgrf
16:52:33 <supermop> one has say, 4 different types of rail that are essentially compatible
16:53:11 <supermop> so one could use up to for different depots to taste for the same type of train
16:53:16 <planetmaker> supermop, I'd be quite happy to help you along with that... we'd only need to put that project on the devzone for my convenience ;-)
16:53:34 <Mazur> Yexo, sure, I just realise I can start a randomised game in 2100 with any particular train grf and pause that for the info.
16:53:42 <planetmaker> yeah. the railtpye --> associated depot way makes more sense probably
16:54:12 * Mazur was too fucused on the scenario way.
16:54:51 <supermop> so if i want a shiny new depot for my 80kmh line,
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16:55:14 <supermop> the 80kmh trains can still service there
16:55:31 <Yexo> a parameter for every railtype has the disadvantage that you'll need a parameter even for railtypes not supported in the current game
16:55:37 <supermop> and one could use 80kmh MLSS stations that match it
16:56:34 <planetmaker> Yexo, yes, exactly
16:56:58 <planetmaker> and it has the disadvantage that it'd be not future proof so to say
16:57:07 <planetmaker> but... that is also the case the other way around
16:57:24 <planetmaker> hm... working without label, just with the railtype ID?
16:57:39 <planetmaker> insane? Or feasible?
16:57:58 <Yexo> railtype ID is grf-local
16:58:54 <planetmaker> I thought it might not be when I don't define a RTT
16:59:27 <Yexo> I don't think you need a RTT at all for a railtype newgrf
17:08:43 <frosch123> "[MAP REQUEST] Full Scandinavia Map, min. 2048x2048" <- i like the "min." :)
17:09:47 <Eddi|zuHause> scandinavia is tricky. the "common" heightmap sources have no data that far north, and the "usual" world-scaling is totally off in these regions
17:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, don't you play 32768^2 maps? :p
17:15:41 <frosch123> i wonder whether all games i ever played would add up to 2048x2048
17:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: if you only played TTO-sized maps, that would be 64 games
17:17:27 <planetmaker> or rather complete DEMs
17:17:46 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i know for sure that i played something bigger than 256x256 only once
17:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i managed to connect the two ends of a 2048x1024 map once
17:18:41 <frosch123> i might have started on a 512x512 map once, but quickly considered it to be way to big
17:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but not fill the full width
17:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it was on daylength 8, i believe, and i played from 1920 to the 1980's
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17:22:21 <supermop> can I just have an undefined dustbin category that gives any railtypes I haven't planned for a generic depot?
17:24:18 <planetmaker> supermop, you can have the player enter a parameter (numerically). Which then can be translated to a railtype label
17:24:35 <planetmaker> the UI would suck though - or do you know how RAIL looks as uint64?
17:25:06 <planetmaker> (similar way your grfID looks like ingame ;-) )
17:28:44 <Eddi|zuHause> a HEX input would be easier than decimal
17:29:17 <planetmaker> easier would also be input as text ;-)
17:29:47 <Eddi|zuHause> not if someone makes a non-textual label ;)
17:30:24 <Eddi|zuHause> a label can be any random uint32 value
17:31:17 <planetmaker> I know. Such person has to be punished, though
17:32:16 <supermop> I should think about this more when I am not at work
17:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: programmatically, the railtype label "RAIL" can be translated to an uint32 (in little-endian notation) by "ord('R')+256*(ord('A')+256*(ord('I')+256*ord('L')))"
17:35:39 <Eddi|zuHause> gives 1279869266 here
17:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "ord('R')" is a function to get the internal (usually ASCII) representation of the letter 'R', it's implemented in most programming languages
17:38:21 <supermop> that is a little over my head
17:38:43 <Eddi|zuHause> just start "python" from the console and enter the above string without the "" ;)
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17:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: actually, for you as grf author this is totally irrelevant. the grf doesn't care how the parameter is entered, you can use any 4-byte parameter value in an action 6 to replace the railtype label
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18:23:06 * ZirconiumX wonders why whenever I've been on in the past few weeks, LordAro has never been on
18:27:34 <ZirconiumX> A Class 172 Turbostar will have fewer seats than a Class 150 Sprinter it replaces[
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18:58:39 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b *!~shmore@dhcp-0-12-17-51-3b-2d.cpe.mountaincable.net
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19:52:27 <__ln__> dihedral: there's this thing called bookmarks
19:53:26 <dihedral> which i do not keep across multiple computers
19:54:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there are functions for this available
19:54:09 *** orudge` is now known as orudge
19:54:13 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on browser
19:56:01 <krinn> dihedral, understood? never redo @logs or you'll die !
19:56:12 <Alberth> you can also bookmark the link at every computer :p
19:56:50 <Alberth> (I already did mine, so need to do that one)
19:57:02 <krinn> or just, well, maybe do @logs and lick on the link because you have a cool irc program :)
19:57:08 <dihedral> i refuse to use such tools
19:57:24 <dihedral> krinn, and who are you?
19:57:49 <Eddi|zuHause> a newbie who thinks he figured out how we talk to each other :p
19:58:48 <__ln__> dihedral: consider purchasing a computer that comes with the OpenTTD logs bookmark preinstalled.
19:59:28 <dihedral> i know __ln__ is a bitch in a lot of cases, but a new guy? :-P
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20:00:47 <__ln__> krinn: yes, who are you?
20:02:19 <krinn> strange question, how you'll answer to that one ln ?
20:03:49 <__ln__> i answer: i have always been here
20:04:39 <krinn> oh, my answer is so: i've not always been here
20:05:06 <krinn> and i'm sure glx could confirm
20:05:14 <__ln__> krinn: fine. so what's your shoe size?
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20:06:00 <dihedral> "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep"
20:07:48 <Regiovogel> i've got a small question regarding the window system/nested widgets...
20:08:29 <Regiovogel> i have made some kind of acceleration graph, based on the other graph windows, it shows the speed of a train over time
20:08:59 <Regiovogel> and i'd like the caption to get the company color of the vehicle's owner. but... how?
20:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth is the GUI-Guy
20:10:00 <Regiovogel> regarding other windows, i *thought* it should be enough to set "owner" of the window to the respective company, but the caption stays gray
20:11:34 <Regiovogel> Eddi|zuHause: i was aware of that, but thanks ;)
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20:11:49 <Wakou> Hi folks. Is there any way I can get the stable or beta to run in 32bpp extra zoom or do I have to compile from source?
20:11:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Regiovogel: have you checked how it's done in the vehicle lists?
20:12:00 <Wakou> I am using openSuse Linux
20:12:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Wakou: there is no extra zoom in stable or beta
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20:12:43 <Wakou> Eddi|zuHause> TY, saves me trying..
20:12:51 <Regiovogel> Eddi|zuHause: i compared it to the VehicleViewWindow and couldn't spot any obvious differences
20:13:05 <Wakou> its off to ./configure patch SVN etc etc for me then
20:14:55 <Regiovogel> well, the caption widget in the VehicleViewWindow is identified by VVW_WIDGET_CAPTION which wasn't the case for my graph window, but this didn't change anything
20:14:55 <Wakou> No plans to incorporate the extra zoom into the game as standard? For me it is 1/2 the game without it, I need it to see exactly what signals are up to etc
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20:22:20 <Regiovogel> i think i might have found it...
20:23:53 <Terkhen> Regiovogel: do you have a screenshot of the graph?
20:24:27 <Regiovogel> yes, it's working now. the owner has to be set after InitNested is called...
20:24:56 <frosch123> yes, InitNested resets everything
20:25:06 <Regiovogel> Terkhen: just a moment, please ;)
20:25:10 <frosch123> btw. do you use svn, hg or git?
20:25:34 <Regiovogel> the code doesn't look very nice by now, but it works
20:26:16 <frosch123> your fix instructions read so complicated :) why don't you add a diff ?
20:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> for local patch development, hg or git might be more appropriate
20:27:06 <JamesG> I'm setting up git to develop my patch, how do I get git to give me a patch file for all changes made since the repository was created?
20:28:07 <Regiovogel> frosch123: i thought for changing only some characters this would be easier, i'll add a patch next time ;)
20:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause> JamesG: "git show" with appropriate options maybe?
20:28:47 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r22128 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4530]: Build-station-window showed wrong selection when reopening. (Regiovogel)
20:28:47 <frosch123> anyway, thanks for the report :)
20:30:09 <Rubidium> Wakou: palette animation fails with extra zoom, and there are some other conceptual issues I can't recall right now
20:30:15 <Regiovogel> i'll give git a try, but as i'm usually a bit short on time at the moment i'm using it rather for coding around a bit...
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20:31:00 <Rubidium> Wakou: not to mention that "32bpp extra zoom" seems to be the reason to force changes in the game that shouldn't be changed
20:32:18 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I can go home, it seems :)
20:32:25 <Wakou> Rubidium>Ty it just seeems a shame that it is not more widely avaiable
20:34:28 <JamesG> Eddi|zuHause: I'll look into that, was using git format-patch origin/master before
20:34:44 <Rubidium> also the extra zoom works with exactly one of the 6 blitters, which means it's far from complete, and completeness of a feature is one of the requirements for inclusion
20:35:51 <supermop> what exactly is a blitter?
20:37:00 <Regiovogel> hah, finally got it working...
20:37:29 <Alberth> supermop: the piece of hardware/software that actually draws sprites onto the screen
20:37:48 <Alberth> (or rather, the video memory)
20:38:09 <supermop> i wonder what was the etymology behind that choice of name
20:38:23 <Rubidium> "blit" = BLock Image Transfer, so it's about copying bits of images around
20:39:17 <supermop> so it should be 'BlITer'
20:40:18 <Regiovogel> the graph shows the acceleration of a train when empty/fully loaded... i'm planning to add two labels to show the max. speed and needed time for this
20:43:17 <Regiovogel> at the moment i didn't actually clone a vehicle, actually it is a bunch of copy-paste of some code...
20:45:15 <Regiovogel> would it actually be possible to calculate something like this with a "real" cloned vehicle? it would be needed to change the speed (and for the empty/loaded calculation the weight and te) to get the right values...
20:50:57 <Terkhen> hmm... I expected more difference
20:51:57 <Terkhen> Regiovogel: I'm not sure, but it would be quite hacky
20:52:19 <Regiovogel> the example was from the turbo train from NARS, thus the small difference
20:54:53 <Regiovogel> currently i've extended the ground vehicle cache to hold the empty and loaded values, and yes, it looks quite hacky
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20:55:32 <Terkhen> from my experience, *any* changes to the ground vehicle cache can cause big changes in performance (for better or worse)
20:56:04 <Regiovogel> well, i've not done a real game with that yet
20:58:03 <Regiovogel> it might be that caching these values isn't really needed and could be calculated when needed
20:59:19 <Terkhen> some people are still falling for that fake chris sawyer post
21:00:04 <Regiovogel> GetAcceleration calls some functions of the vehicles to get needed values (e. g. speed), would it have an impact on performance when changing this to parameters instead?
21:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the entire thread should have been locked... imho
21:02:23 <Regiovogel> i'll try that out when i've got some spare time... would surely save some code duplication
21:02:36 <Terkhen> I don't know enough about how class methods work at a lower level to be able to discern what option would be faster, but at first glance it seems to me that adding parameters would in the best case not affect performance
21:02:41 <Terkhen> what code is duplicated?
21:03:39 <Regiovogel> oh, well, err... i have copy-pasted GetAcceleration... ;)
21:03:55 <Terkhen> ah, in your patch, I see
21:04:17 <Eddi|zuHause> does the name "Sufkop" mean what i think it means? :=)
21:05:59 <Regiovogel> Eddi|zuHause: regarding what he wrote... maybe ;-D
21:08:24 <Regiovogel> if changing the functions to get their input values from parameters doesn't have an influence, my code might get quite readable...
21:11:32 * Regiovogel wonders if there might be a DBXL 0.9 on some day in the future...
21:12:51 <Regiovogel> a nice screenshot every now and then, something here, something there...
21:13:46 <Regiovogel> well, in the meantime, there's UKRS2 :)
21:15:05 <Regiovogel> don't know why, but i like the british vehicles more...
21:19:44 <Regiovogel> i think that most germans would rather say british trains are "ugly" (at least most people i know think so), but... i like them :)
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21:24:34 * DanMacK likes trains of all kinds, although German ones are cool
21:25:35 <supermop> can't argue with the beauty of an HST...
21:25:57 <supermop> with plenty of yellow up front
21:27:20 * Regiovogel would like to see, hear and smell a real HST...
21:27:41 <Regiovogel> watching youtube videos is good, but nothing can replace reality :-D
21:28:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never understood why british trains must be yellow at the front
21:29:19 <valhallasw> dutch trains need to have a white front, although museum trains are not required to
21:30:08 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, it's simply forbidden to step on the tracks. what does one need visibility for?
21:30:29 <Eddi|zuHause> if you need visibility, you switch on the lights.
21:30:59 <SmatZ> not all crossings have lights
21:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> crossings have lights and bars on their own. and crossings without lights have to be announced by train whistle
21:31:13 <Regiovogel> we have crossings in germany, too...
21:31:33 <SmatZ> maybe that's because of deaf people
21:31:38 <SmatZ> who can't hear it coming
21:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> still, the train's headlights will be waaay more visible than any kind of coloured front
21:32:27 <supermop> the headlights might burn out
21:32:28 <valhallasw> of course, 30 years back there were deaf people, too, and the white front was not required in NL, then
21:32:31 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: you need to have pretty big lights if they are supposed to make the train more visible in broad daylight
21:32:37 <valhallasw> supermop: because it's ugly
21:33:01 <Regiovogel> german trains don't have too bright headlights...
21:33:20 <supermop> trains primary function is not to be decorative
21:33:29 <Regiovogel> they are more like... position lights
21:33:38 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: and the observer isn't (hopefully) observing the lights from directly ahead, but a less optimal angle.
21:34:06 <supermop> also, the train might be parked on a track, turned off
21:34:28 <Eddi|zuHause> in broad daylight, a red engine will probably be more visible (as in different from its surroundings) than a yellow engine
21:34:36 <supermop> in which case it needs to be visible to any other train travelling on those tracks
21:34:49 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: no. that's what signals are for
21:34:53 <supermop> human eyes respond most strongly to yellows and greens
21:35:03 <__ln__> i remember hearing about a research that shows yellow+black is actually the most noticeable color combo for engines.
21:35:24 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i haven't seen many tiger-trains around :p
21:35:26 <supermop> what if the signal breaks?
21:35:46 <supermop> why have yellow/black striped fronts here, but not mandatory
21:35:47 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: a broken signal must be interpreted as showing "stop"
21:36:15 <supermop> what if the wiring was bad and it falsely shows green,
21:36:39 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: that must never ever happen.
21:37:02 <supermop> if one has to paint the front of a train anyway, you might as well paint it the most visible color you can
21:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: at that point, the train's visibility will not help at all
21:38:39 <supermop> the above argument is like saying that there is no point wear a helmet on a motorcycle, because if you go over the handlebars at 60 mph, the helmet isn't going to help
21:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: to my statement "i have not seen many tiger trains" you reply with photos of trains i have never seen. what's the point? :)
21:40:21 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: now you can't say you haven't
21:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i can still say it.
21:40:49 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: nobody said everything i say must be true :p
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21:43:17 <__ln__> i'm searching the logs to find a proof for the opposite
21:47:33 <peter1138> anyone know if it's possible for SDL to report whether the mouse movement event is from a mouse or tablet?
21:47:42 * peter1138 is suspecting it's not...
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21:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd suppose there are too many abstraction layers inbetween
22:05:19 <zydeco> an iPhone port of sdl reported multiple touches as multiple mice
22:06:19 <Zuu> Last time I looked, I found different APIs to access a tablet on Windows and on Linux.
22:06:54 <Zuu> Maybe you can find an abstraction layer if you look at eg Inkscape/Gimp source code.
22:08:50 <Regiovogel> well, time to go to bed...
22:10:38 <Zuu> What might be possible for SDL is to tell if the mouse run in absolute or relative mode and if it is in absolute mode, it is quite probable a tablet.
22:12:04 <Zuu> But as said above it could be that even the idea of relative/absolute mouses devices have been abstracted away.
22:17:45 <__ln__> what's 'to understand' in latin?
22:20:03 <peter1138> basically i want an app to not use mouse warping if it can determine that a tablet is being used
22:20:16 <peter1138> i can add it as a flag
22:20:24 <peter1138> but doing it automatically would be great
22:22:30 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: smatz * r22129 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Codechange: use simpler check to test if there any towns in the game
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