IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-02-23
00:01:24 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: smatz * r22130 /trunk/src/saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp: -Fix: failed assert when loading savegame with empty shared orderlist
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02:07:45 <supermop> hello
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08:15:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what am i doing wrong when an initial "make" after checkout spams me with thousands of messages the likes of "A portion of sprite 422 could not be processed."?
08:15:38 <Eddi|zuHause> make[2]: *** [/home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/1.1.0/objs/extra_grf/openttd.grf] Fehler 5
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08:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> here's the full log of stderr-output:
08:36:25 <Terkhen> good morning
08:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause> this looks totally weird to me:
08:41:17 <Yexo> openttd.nfo is an empty file
08:41:40 <Eddi|zuHause> right, didn't wait for it to be fully uploaded
08:41:43 <Eddi|zuHause> wait a minute
08:41:46 <planetmaker> moin
08:41:56 <Yexo> morning
08:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: should be better now
08:43:33 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: do you perhaps have an old version of nforenum installed? more specifically a version without png support?
08:43:57 <Yexo> openttd will only try to rebuild openttd.grf if it detects nforenum
08:44:16 <Eddi|zuHause> > nforenum --version
08:44:17 <Eddi|zuHause> NFORenum r811 - Copyright (C) 2004-2010 by Dale McCoy
08:45:34 <Yexo> I've got no idea then
08:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know the capabilities of that version
08:46:10 <Yexo> it's quite recent
08:46:19 <Yexo> latest is r821
08:46:38 <Eddi|zuHause> GRFCodec r811 - Copyright (C) 2000-2005 by Josef Drexler
08:46:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so at least both match
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09:13:04 <Mazur> Good morning, everyone.
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09:16:59 <JamesG> Good morning, Mazur
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10:07:18 <zydeco> greetings
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10:41:48 <fonsinchen> brrr ... when drawing a linkgraph overlay over the main viewport I have to recalculate it everytime we scroll as different links have to be shown. However, as also the linkgraph itself may have changed I have to set the whole viewport dirty after each recalculation. That is slow. Any ideas?
10:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> some cache and a tile-loop-ish 256-tick refresh?
10:44:13 <fonsinchen> Then when you scroll the viewport you won't see new links until those 256 ticks are over.
10:44:48 <fonsinchen> It already has a cache, but only for the links in the current viewport.
10:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you need a stronger separation of the links and their data (caoacity, etc.)
10:45:21 <fonsinchen> Maybe I should always put all links in the cache.
10:46:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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10:46:58 <fonsinchen> Then I wouldn't have to rebuild the cache on scrolling and zooming at all, but it would take longer to rebuild it in turn.
10:47:02 <fonsinchen> Worth a try
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10:48:26 <Eddi|zuHause> what you need to avoid is constantly recalculating everything. in earlier versions of cargodist, whenever i viewed the link graph, cpu went to 100%
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10:49:05 <fonsinchen> That is already solved with the cache
10:49:43 <fonsinchen> I'm working on the overlay branches which are very different from smallmap-stats
10:49:53 <fonsinchen> smallmap-stats will be removed in favor of those.
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10:58:30 <fonsinchen> That's better indeed. :)
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11:07:21 <Eddi|zuHause> what i meant about tile-loop-ish was some kind of incremental rolling update, so you don't make all calculations at once, but instead spread them out evenly over the whole 256 ticks
11:08:24 <fonsinchen> This would give me all kinds of headaches with stations and links appearing and disappearing in between.
11:08:59 <fonsinchen> RebuildCache itself is acceptably fast; it's just not good to run it on every single scroll event.
11:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, if you think it suffices...
11:10:10 <fonsinchen> Actually I think by not checking if the links are visible it should have become faster.
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11:23:42 <fonsinchen> Well, yes ... cache rebuilding is faster, drawing is slower now. Naturally.
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11:38:06 <fonsinchen> I guess I need two cache levels: one for all links and one for the visible ones.
11:38:30 <fonsinchen> This is getting ridiculous.
11:41:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the idea is actually not as crazy as it sounds
11:43:18 <SpComb> minimap?
11:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: no, main viewport overlay
11:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i now updated to grfcodec 5.1.0, and manually executed make in objs/extra_grf, and now it does it without errors
11:44:20 <SpComb> ooh yeah, overlay :)
11:45:09 <fonsinchen> It works, but it's awfully slow.
11:45:10 <SpComb> you could just do links for visible stations, and skip those for stations not visible? :)
11:45:42 <fonsinchen> I'm already doing that but I still have to check all stations like that
11:45:58 <fonsinchen> except if I limit the cache to only visible links and stations.
11:46:06 <fonsinchen> But then I have to rebuild it if you scroll
11:46:09 <fonsinchen> which is also slow
11:46:10 <SpComb> I mean, skip links between stations not visible
11:46:18 <SpComb> but I guess it would be too confusing
11:46:21 <fonsinchen> That's bad
11:46:42 <fonsinchen> You don't want that link you're just following to suddenly disappear.
11:46:46 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: you could make the cached area larger than the screen, and only rebuild on "far" scrolls?
11:47:15 <fonsinchen> I was thinking about sorting the cache.
11:47:48 <fonsinchen> Putting the visible links first and only resorting it (instead of rebuilding) when scrolling.
11:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: sort for what?
11:48:05 <fonsinchen> visibility
11:48:28 <fonsinchen> Then I can stop checking when I get an invisible link.
11:49:13 <SpComb> what's the expensive operation, determining which links are visible in the given viewport?
11:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: but that means while scrolling around you'll still do a sorting operation on thousands of elements with a non-trivial chekc
11:51:40 <fonsinchen> you have to rebuild the lvl1 cache somehow
11:51:45 <Eddi|zuHause> (where anything other than "a<b" is non-trivial)
11:52:40 <fonsinchen> The problem is that I can't waste a lot of time in ViewportDoDraw
11:53:20 <fonsinchen> So using a larger area only partly solves the problem.
11:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: maybe my suggestion is viable there: the "lvl2" cache contains the full graph, and the "lvl1" cache an area of the visible screen plus some border. e.g. if your screen is 800x600, you cache an area of 1600x1200, with the original position centered. then you have to rebuild the cache only when scrolling more than 400 pixels left/right or 300 pixels up/down
11:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> not every 1-pixel scroll operation will result in a recalculation then
11:54:47 <fonsinchen> But then I have to check 4 times the amount of links for every Draw
11:54:59 <fonsinchen> This will still be nasty
11:55:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but "4 times" is really a small number
11:55:23 <fonsinchen> Not in ViewportDoDraw
11:55:33 <fonsinchen> That thing is incredibly tight.
11:55:37 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: strange that that works, since 5.1.0 = r813
11:56:07 <Yexo> r812 / r813 = Add: support for object property 17 and variable 48 / Update: some documentation
11:56:17 <Yexo> both don't look like anything that might effect the problem you had
11:56:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: maybe Ammler made some serious hickups while providing the package?
11:56:39 <SpComb> there's bound to be some algorithmic solution though, rendering a view into a space filled with vectors is a common enough operation
11:57:02 <SpComb> think google maps or whatever
11:57:41 <SpComb> then again, they can probably afford massive precomputed caches/indexes
11:58:45 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i think google maps has fairly local overlay lines, you won't see a direct line between Paris and Berlin while browsing the countryside somewhere inbetween
11:59:16 <SpComb> they have long paths
11:59:36 <SpComb> who's to say you can't split the long line up for your cache?
11:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: paths != links
12:00:02 <SpComb> I mean, mark each super-tile that the link passes throguh
12:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: SpComb has a point there, if you split up your links in "small" chunks, you get more chunks but get a better locality condition
12:01:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so cut up the link every 256 pixels
12:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and draw it like a sprite
12:01:50 <fonsinchen> And how does that help with the caching?
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12:02:02 <fonsinchen> This is just a more complicated cache
12:02:33 <fonsinchen> Ah, I see what you mean
12:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: on scrolling, you can only get one additional chunk in each direction, so you can have some kind of sorted 2D list
12:02:58 <fonsinchen> Like this I can reference specific areas in the cache.
12:03:05 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
12:09:06 <Ammler> [13:08] <Eddi|zuHause> [12:56:37] Yexo: maybe Ammler made some serious hickups while providing the package? <-- hickup?
12:09:35 <SpComb> it makes building the cache more complicated, but if you can maintain it iteratively (add/remove/change induvidual links) rather than rebuild it..
12:09:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: with grfcodec-5.1.r811 i couldn't compile openttd.grf, but with grfcodec-5.1.0 it works
12:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: both installed from openttdcoop repo
12:10:21 <Ammler> hmm, there is a 5.1.r811 there?
12:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: there was back then when i installed it
12:10:52 <Ammler> grfcodec is now in the official games repo, btw.
12:11:19 <Ammler> openttdcoop is used as testing repo, I just submit stables to games
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12:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i have the games repo active
12:12:22 <Ammler> well, using openttdcoop should also work
12:12:45 <Ammler> maybe you aren't aware that 5.1.r811 is older than 5.1.0
12:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i am.
12:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i don't think we'll ever find out what was actually wrong...
12:13:47 <Yexo> <Ammler> maybe you aren't aware that 5.1.r811 is older than 5.1.0 <- the difference is not releveant here (5.1.0 = r813)
12:14:25 <Ammler> Yexo: well, as Eddi|zuHause mentioned, it could be there were some build script changes
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12:19:58 <fonsinchen> Let's get back to the actual problem, shall we? The actual problem was not in fact the time needed for rebuilding the cache or drawing. That was pretty balanced until I messed it up right before.
12:20:16 <fonsinchen> The actual problem was the forced whole screen redraw after rebuilding the cache.
12:20:41 <fonsinchen> That was too frequent as it happened in every OnScroll.
12:20:54 <fonsinchen> It's not really necessary to do it that often, though.
12:21:12 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: but wouldn't that also be solved if you had sprite-sized chunks of the graph?
12:21:54 <fonsinchen> That's an incredibly complicated thingh to implement entirely not needed, as there's an easier solution.
12:22:01 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: then the normal viewport-redraw rules would apply
12:22:36 <fonsinchen> I can just remember that I have just scrolled and delay the rebuild/redraw thing a little
12:23:07 <fonsinchen> Like that the link graph overlay only gets updated when you're done scrolling and that's acceptable I think.
12:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like while i scroll, the newly visible area won't have links drawn?
12:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound good at all
12:26:45 <fonsinchen> The new links get drawn about a second after you release the button
12:27:03 <fonsinchen> Mind that you can still follow previously visible links like this
12:27:18 <fonsinchen> They stay visible
12:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause> hm...
12:29:15 <Eddi|zuHause> damn... i can't get the "first contact" theme out of my head anymore
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12:37:44 <fonsinchen> works
12:41:03 <fonsinchen> 15 ticks may be a bit long for the delay, but I'll keep it like that for now to provoke some discussion :)
12:41:28 <Eddi|zuHause> what happens if the game is paused?
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12:43:14 <fonsinchen> Window::OnTick still works as expected in paused it seems
12:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause> good
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12:45:22 <Eddi|zuHause> something that i was missing from the smallmap linkgraph: when clicking on a link it should cycle between the two end points (like subsidies do)
12:46:41 <fonsinchen> Advanced features to be implemented by whoever is enthusiastic enough.
12:46:53 <fonsinchen> I have enough more basic problems for now.
12:48:08 <fonsinchen> For example I need a legend for the viewport overlay.
12:48:20 <fonsinchen> This is going to be a pain.
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12:48:36 <Eddi|zuHause> a window, like in the tile highlighting patch?
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12:48:45 * andythenorth ponders
12:48:57 <andythenorth> what's all this crap about HEQS trams being too good?
12:48:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're in the right place for that ;)
12:49:02 <andythenorth> all of mine are just losing money :(
12:49:59 <fonsinchen> You need to select by company and cargo, with all/none options for each and I have to place the menu entry at some point where a, you'll find it and b, no one will be pissed about it.
12:50:50 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
12:51:31 <Terkhen> they are too good for being road vehicles, but they are still worse than trains IMO
12:52:05 <Terkhen> they can carry a lot of cargo but they are slow, which makes them balanced
12:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: a dropdown entry in the minimap tool?
12:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: or the graph tool?
12:53:28 <fonsinchen> Is there actually a menu entry for the transparency GUI somewhere? That's where the linkgraph overlay legend GUI should be.
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12:53:45 <planetmaker> There's not, fonsinchen
12:53:51 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: it's in the settings dropdown, that sounds like the wrong place
12:54:10 <planetmaker> hm, there's a menu entry which opens it, Eddi|zuHause ?
12:54:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes.
12:54:30 <planetmaker> :-) I'm way too used to shortcuts it seems
12:56:13 <fonsinchen> Hmm, should I stop it from drawing a linkgraph on the title game? ;)
12:57:06 * andythenorth goes back to losing money :(
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12:57:14 <Wolf01> hello
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13:04:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andy's fault is clearly that he plays the meta-game the wrong way...
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13:06:40 <planetmaker> what's the right way, Eddi|zuHause ?
13:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the meta-game consists of making code/graphics, not actually playing the game ;)
13:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> (referring his post in the "what kind of game is openttd?" thread)
13:08:25 <planetmaker> yes... but why does he play that game the wrong way?
13:08:54 <Eddi|zuHause> if he were not-playing the game, then he wouldn't lose money...
13:09:22 <planetmaker> :-)
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13:14:50 <Mazur> Idea: delivering coal to HQ to combat fuel prices/running costs.
13:15:21 <Mazur> Of steamers only, of course.
13:15:43 <Mazur> Oil for Diesels.
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13:20:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: conceptual flaw: you don't actually buy the cargo on pickup, so you can't just deliver them to your own HQ for "free"
13:22:23 <Mazur> Hmyes.
13:22:53 <Mazur> Still you can write off the transport cost against taxes. ;-)
13:23:31 <Mazur> No matter, it was just an idea.
13:49:06 <Mazur> Snow.
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14:06:33 <Belugas> hello
14:07:18 <yorick> airports are complicated
14:09:38 <TrueBrain> you have people taking off, landing, and you have snow; I don't see the complication
14:10:36 <TrueBrain> well, not people landing ... planes ... it would be weird if people would be taking off etc
14:11:13 <yorick> airport movements are complicated*
14:11:27 <TrueBrain> they don't really move normally
14:11:29 <TrueBrain> they sit in one place
14:11:33 <TrueBrain> would be weird if they move around
14:11:40 <yorick> aircraft movements on airports are complicated*
14:12:03 <yorick> "they can go left, right, or forward"
14:12:11 <TrueBrain> they can also go up
14:12:12 <TrueBrain> or down
14:12:22 <TrueBrain> in some weird cases collide
14:12:24 <yorick> to what degree are newgrf airports in trunk?
14:12:32 <TrueBrain> 56.3 degrees
14:12:34 <TrueBrain> to the left
14:13:01 <planetmaker> don't forget the inclination angle. It's about 27.3°
14:13:18 <TrueBrain> did you correct for the normal?
14:13:45 <planetmaker> the question is which 'normal'? I used the normal to the geoid 1996 model
14:14:03 <TrueBrain> see, there we differ
14:14:16 <planetmaker> drat
14:14:28 <TrueBrain> *best conversation ever*
14:14:30 <planetmaker> :-)
14:14:47 * yorick gives up
14:14:51 <TrueBrain> the reason computers have such a hard time understanding conversations; so much is based on context :)
14:15:05 <planetmaker> yup :-)
14:15:30 <planetmaker> having this conversation a computer would have failed the turing test, though ;-)
14:15:46 <TrueBrain> well, so you assumed
14:15:51 <TrueBrain> maybe I am a bot
14:15:53 <planetmaker> unless it subsequently would not fail in convincing the examiner that it was joking around with them
14:16:16 <planetmaker> hm... are you from an asimov-universe?
14:16:23 <TrueBrain> who?
14:16:32 <planetmaker> you(r bot)
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14:17:02 <TrueBrain> never played with Isaac, so dunno
14:17:20 * Belugas is seaching for ultra bright white LED for God Wife
14:17:24 <Belugas> Hello sir TrueBrain!
14:18:49 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, you really never read anything from him? You definitely missed some of the best sci-fi around
14:19:06 <planetmaker> Belugas, "golden dragon"
14:19:19 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: guess I did
14:19:21 <TrueBrain> howdie Belugas :D
14:21:50 <planetmaker> alternatively
14:22:20 <Belugas> ho...
14:22:21 <planetmaker> though samsung(?) also has some very bright ones.
14:22:37 * Belugas clicks on URL with gratitude
14:23:20 <planetmaker> <-- first one
14:27:56 <planetmaker> ah, the third one was from "Seoul semiconductor"
14:28:10 <planetmaker> but my info is a bit outdated 12 .. 18 months
14:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> damn, it
14:31:33 * planetmaker damns it
14:31:40 <TrueBrain> who is this IT you talk about?
14:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it's make-fun-of-yorick-day and i missed it :(
14:32:04 <TrueBrain> well, I was not making fun of yorick, more fun of myself, but yorick decided to help along :p
14:32:22 <Belugas> mmh...
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14:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> "turing test extra credit: make the observer think he's the computer"
14:37:00 <supermop> ha
14:46:05 <Belugas> thanks for info, planetmaker, now i need to make up my mind :)
14:46:12 <Belugas> and find good prices here and there!
14:46:31 <planetmaker> no problem. It's been bookmarked here ;-)
14:46:43 <peter1138> bah
14:47:26 <TrueBrain> good day to you too peter1138 :D
14:48:05 <peter1138> silly me. my system had manpages for some functions, so i used them.
14:48:13 <peter1138> but my system doesn't support those functions...
14:49:09 <TrueBrain> lol; you have man pages installed of functions which you don't have installed? That is a new one :D
14:50:17 <peter1138> yeah :(
14:51:35 * andythenorth is backing up
14:51:48 <andythenorth> how are there more than 1m items on my HD?
14:52:03 <supermop> 1 meter?
14:53:03 <yorick> 1 megabyte?
14:53:11 <__ln__> 1 metre?
14:53:46 <yorick> 1 microsoft standard unit?
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14:54:48 <yorick> TrueBrain: <-- possible donation option?
14:55:22 <yorick> or does orudge do that
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14:56:03 <peter1138> # listen to the sound
14:57:34 <Belugas> # of my big black boots
15:00:21 <Mazur> Thse boots are made for Walken.
15:01:05 <Belugas> # Walking in your footsteps!
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15:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Christopher Walken?
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15:04:09 <__ln__> # it won't attract the worm
15:05:27 <Belugas> # Good Morning The Worm, your Honnor
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15:13:45 <DanMacK> WB Andy
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16:33:39 <montezuma> alguien que hable español?
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16:38:36 <Belugas> terkehn does, but he's not there, and neither are you
16:38:47 <planetmaker> :-D
16:39:06 <planetmaker> patience is a virtue, eh? ;-)
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16:40:15 <IchGuckLive> Hi all
16:40:20 <Mazur> Patience is also a class of card game.
16:40:30 <Mazur> Hi one.
16:41:51 <IchGuckLive> Got e Question i got a subvention running from a tiny city to a othe via a big city
16:42:59 <IchGuckLive> if i bring people on the back track to the tiny city from the large city will they then increase the amout on passangers
16:46:55 <Terkhen> planetmaker: indeed it is :)
16:48:28 <lugo> IchGuckLive,
16:48:52 <Belugas> yeah... patience... seems lack of it plagues quite a lot of countries
16:51:51 <Belugas> mmh.. i'm also affected. but... it's because of my abusive coffee drinking habit :S
16:53:13 <__ln__> What do they call Quarter-Pounder with Cheese in Québec?
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16:59:49 <IchGuckLive> lugo: trhanks
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17:23:43 <Belugas> __ln__ : "un quart de livre"
17:24:10 <Belugas> which, oh surprise, translates into "a quarter-pound"
17:24:24 <Belugas> so no "er" at the end
17:24:36 <Belugas> add cheese if you want -> "fromage"
17:24:50 <Belugas> but... i never touch that stuff
17:25:32 <__ln__> so not "royale with cheese"
17:26:08 <Belugas> not that i am aware.
17:28:39 <Belugas> maybe it's how they are called in France, but definitively not here
17:28:49 <__ln__> (that's what it's called in france according to Pulp Fiction)
17:28:59 <__ln__> (and also according to my own observations)
17:29:29 <Belugas> since my last visit tofrance goes back to 1975, i cannot trust my memory :)
17:29:35 <Belugas> so i believe you
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18:08:35 <andythenorth> evenings
18:09:04 <Zuu> oddnings
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18:11:49 <Nanor> hey guys
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18:12:01 <Nanor> Can anyone gimme a bit of help with train stations in OTTD?
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18:13:32 <Zuu> Don't ask to ask, just ask.
18:14:50 <Nanor> sorry
18:14:59 <Nanor> How can I tell trains to use a certain terminal at a train staion
18:16:30 <Terkhen> Nanor: unless you somehow force them to choose one using other means (for example waypoints at the entrance of each terminal) there is no way
18:16:41 <Nanor> oh
18:16:48 <Nanor> i'll try that then
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18:21:15 <Terkhen> andythenorth: is FIRS closing behaviour documented somewhere?
18:21:24 <andythenorth> in the code :P
18:21:31 <andythenorth> and the readme :D
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18:23:01 <andythenorth> Terkhen: there may be a bug with it though
18:23:11 <andythenorth> are you asking from interest, or a problem?
18:23:18 <Terkhen> both :)
18:23:41 <andythenorth> ho
18:23:49 <Terkhen> frequently serviced fishing grounds closed for me
18:23:52 <andythenorth> hmm
18:23:59 <andythenorth> what parameter for primary closure?
18:25:52 <Terkhen> "yes"
18:25:56 <andythenorth> ok
18:26:00 <andythenorth> hmm
18:26:18 <andythenorth> can you open a ticket for me?
18:26:19 <andythenorth> thanks
18:26:24 <Belugas> i think i'm tired. A joke I pulled out : Who is the opposite of Tristan? Gaetan. Got to be french to get it...
18:26:25 <Terkhen> ok :)
18:31:21 <glx> Belugas: it's a bad one ;)
18:32:49 <Belugas> i know, but i can't stop laughting at it :D like... nervously laughing
18:38:15 <rane> should i have path signals network-wide or just before stations?
18:39:04 <Zuu> both works
18:39:14 <Zuu> I usually stick to path signals in the entire network
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18:39:32 <Zuu> Makes things simplier to stick to the same type of signals in the entire network.
18:40:21 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r22131 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Fix: Spectators had trouble closing buoy windows. (Terkhen)
18:40:49 <rane> my trains go crazy sometimes and try to escape stations using wrong track when wait is too long for the exit
18:41:05 <rane> paths don't block them and cause tons of pain
18:44:30 <Zuu> If an AI refit a vehicle to the same cargo multiple times, can it iterate through different sub cargo type refits?
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18:45:03 <frosch123> afaik subcargos are not available to ais
18:45:11 <frosch123> they are to broken to design an api for :p
18:45:30 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22132 /trunk/src/lang/ (polish.txt slovenian.txt unfinished/frisian.txt):
18:45:30 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:30 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frisian - 172 changes by Taeke
18:45:30 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: polish - 1 changes by xaxa
18:45:30 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: slovenian - 40 changes by Necrolyte
18:45:30 <Zuu> So it is it an AI limitation that they can't use the long versions of busses long vehicles.
18:45:43 <frosch123> currently yes
18:46:35 <Zuu> Checked and found out that the longer versions in LV are not more expansive than the short versions - just higher capacity and larger sprites.
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18:56:34 * andythenorth has HEQS running cost dilemma
18:56:43 <andythenorth> I made a parameter for them
18:56:47 <andythenorth> (or planetmaker did) :P
18:56:55 <andythenorth> which makes it too easy to 'fix' my loss making routes
18:57:12 <planetmaker> tsk :-)
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18:58:31 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I usually have no problems on getting a profit using ishizuchi on coal routes
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18:58:40 <andythenorth> this is the steam trams
18:58:48 <andythenorth> on general cargo routes (mostly farm)
18:58:49 <Terkhen> oh :)
18:59:02 <andythenorth> 15mph is quite slow :P
18:59:07 <Terkhen> well, I tend to avoid the *really* slow vehicles in HEQS
18:59:16 <andythenorth> I have no other choices
18:59:30 <andythenorth> eGRVTS horses are broken for realistic acceleration
18:59:47 <Terkhen> hmm... yes
19:00:18 <Terkhen> a small acceleration fix release of eGRVTS would be really welcome
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19:00:57 <andythenorth> zephyris wouldn't mind
19:01:01 <andythenorth> he's just busy :)
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19:03:33 <Terkhen> :)
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19:11:10 * andythenorth wishes trains would go for servicing automatically
19:11:32 <supermop> what do you mean?
19:11:41 <andythenorth> its boring setting 'service at depot' orders
19:11:51 <SmatZ> they go to depot when they need to
19:11:55 <andythenorth> no they don't
19:12:03 <andythenorth> they haven't for many releases
19:12:03 <supermop> conditional orders? or use the old service intervals
19:12:08 <SmatZ> depending how you set the "service interval" value
19:12:22 <SmatZ> of course, you have to have depots reachable
19:12:38 <andythenorth> current date 1877. service interval: 30 days. last serviced 1875
19:13:00 <SmatZ> then it can't find the depot
19:13:04 <andythenorth> it's a PBS signalling issue
19:13:10 <supermop> just put a depot at the end of the terminal platform
19:13:19 <andythenorth> I know approximately what causes it, but it's annoying :P
19:13:39 <supermop> or have block signals near the depot siding
19:14:00 <andythenorth> I can solve it with another PBS signal near the depot
19:14:05 <andythenorth> but that will cause dumb lockups
19:14:06 <supermop> so that the train doesn't reserve a path past the depot
19:14:09 <andythenorth> and I have no money :P
19:14:13 <supermop> heh
19:14:42 <supermop> besides, no depot orders means you don't get to use pretty sheds
19:15:07 <andythenorth> it's odd that the train should know it will need servicing (it hasn't been for 2 years)...
19:15:18 <supermop> to stable your trains before and after the servicing
19:15:20 <andythenorth> ...but on leaving the station it doesn't try and reserve a path to a perfectly available depot
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19:22:13 <andythenorth> 1870 FIRS + UKRS2 + HEQS + FISH is *hard*
19:22:52 <andythenorth> I could do with a strategy guide :P
19:23:43 <Belugas> or with a strategic guide
19:24:32 <andythenorth> heh
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19:24:51 <andythenorth> right now I could do with using the money cheat :P
19:25:09 <andythenorth> for too many years coal has been the money maker :P
19:25:15 <andythenorth> everything I know is now wrong
19:28:18 <Belugas> sounds like a guy who discovered his wife is in fact a man
19:28:34 <Belugas> or that aliens are everywhere
19:28:40 <SmatZ> :D
19:28:44 <Belugas> and that wishes exist!
19:28:48 <Belugas> witches
19:31:48 <andythenorth> frosch123: extended tile spec looks like it could handle animation?
19:31:54 <andythenorth> instead of n tiles for n frames
19:32:15 <andythenorth> tiles / action 2s /s
19:32:19 <frosch123> sure
19:32:30 <andythenorth> seems like a net win on the whole
19:32:39 <andythenorth> did I miss any developments with it?
19:32:54 <frosch123> i discussed some minor changes to the specs with lakie
19:32:58 <frosch123> did not update them yet though
19:32:59 <andythenorth> last thing I saw on it was shipping you a test grf
19:33:42 <frosch123> yeah, but it always looked the same for me :s
19:34:29 <andythenorth> :D
19:34:35 <andythenorth> I didn't do much with it
19:34:50 <andythenorth> is the patch considered 'early work' or 'quite finished'
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19:37:51 <frosch123> except for some format changes there is not much to add
19:38:50 <frosch123> i need to harden the loading a bit though. it has to disable the grf if there are unknown bits in the flags
19:38:52 <andythenorth> so I could use some real FIRS cases as a test for it?
19:39:06 <andythenorth> then branch them off for inclusion later
19:39:13 <frosch123> i think so, the future change will be minor
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19:39:26 <frosch123> but there will be changes :)
19:39:42 <andythenorth> the more testing, the faster it gets to trunk?
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19:46:33 <frosch123> updated the spec
19:46:37 <frosch123> not yet the diff though
19:47:26 <frosch123> now there is a 0x40 offset on the number of sprites to identify the new format, the flags are now 16bit and are at a different position
19:47:43 <andythenorth> ok
19:48:13 <frosch123> hmm, now we could also add <flags> to the groundsprite
19:48:46 <andythenorth> is the concept of groundsprite still relevant?
19:48:56 <andythenorth> is the bounding box handled differently for that?
19:49:03 <frosch123> they have no bounding box
19:49:08 <frosch123> and there are special cases
19:49:11 <andythenorth> ok
19:49:23 * andythenorth wondered if it was just a stack of sprites really
19:49:26 <frosch123> e.g. if the groundsprite is the flat water sprite, it will also draw canal or river borders
19:49:52 <andythenorth> ok
19:50:44 <frosch123> will take a look the groundsprite case later
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20:30:06 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r22133 /trunk/src/ (autoreplace_gui.cpp misc_gui.cpp transparency_gui.cpp): -Fix: some coding style.
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20:46:04 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r22134 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp newgrf_debug_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Move ReInit() of the landinfo window from DeleteNewGRFInspectWindow() into a InvalidateData call.
20:55:20 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r22135 /trunk/src/ (9 files):
20:55:20 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4523]: When commands need to invalidate windows, process these events
20:55:21 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: asynchronously before the next redraw. Calling window code directly from command
20:55:21 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: scope uses wrong _current_company and might issue nested DoCommands() which
20:55:21 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: interfer with the running command.
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20:56:07 <peter> hello
20:56:34 *** peter is now known as Guest2416
20:57:12 <Guest2416> anyone here would could help with a downloading content issue?
20:57:40 <planetmaker> click 'online content'. wait for list to build. Then select what suits you. Doesn't that work?
20:57:50 <planetmaker> @ports
20:57:50 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
20:57:55 <planetmaker> might be interesting, too
20:57:59 <Guest2416> no, the problem is there it cannot connect t oa server
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20:58:16 <planetmaker> TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
21:01:31 <Guest2416> where can i set it as a default connection for outbound in 1.0.5?
21:02:44 <planetmaker> I just quoted it...
21:03:00 <planetmaker> content service: port 3978. other stuff: 3979
21:03:25 <planetmaker> but you need to configure your OS and your router to let that port pass.
21:06:00 <Guest2416> a perhaps that is the problem, the os has those ports open but unfortunatly i cant change the router
21:06:11 <supermop> Oh man, just had a great idea for a wagon
21:06:18 <Guest2416> thanks for the help :)
21:06:24 <supermop> wagons can change length, correct?
21:07:54 <andythenorth> schnabel car?
21:08:03 <planetmaker> no problem, Guest2416
21:08:11 <planetmaker> supermop, yes
21:08:16 <supermop> ok
21:08:27 <supermop> i know the use is limited
21:08:57 <Guest2416> have a good night
21:08:58 <planetmaker> yes, I can't use it in order to get the tea water boil faster ;-)
21:09:05 <planetmaker> good night, Guest2416
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21:09:28 <supermop> but wagons that are short and invisible when empty, and take use the graphics of locomotives and MUs in the currently active set when full
21:09:57 <supermop> to simulate new stock being towed to delivery
21:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: wagons can only change length in the depot
21:11:09 <supermop> they could carry goods or supplies, or vehicles, if there is set that supports that
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22:06:34 <Belugas> night
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22:30:11 <Wolf01> 'night all
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22:59:16 <planetmaker> good night all, too
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