IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-02-14
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00:28:43 <SmatZ> I am confused by the situation in Egypt...
00:28:55 <SmatZ> now all media say how great it is Mubarak is gone
00:29:05 <SmatZ> but in the past, I have never heard anything bad about him
00:29:37 <SmatZ> furthermore, wasn't he supporting Israel?
00:30:06 <SmatZ> does that mean the mood is against Israel now?
00:30:18 <SmatZ> I have to say... I am confused by media
00:30:40 <SmatZ> if that situation was is, say, Libya... I would understand that
00:31:22 <SmatZ> but why is Mubarak so bad now? and the protestants are so pro-democratic? was there Mubarak's despotism or what? ...
00:32:58 <ccfreak2k> Mubarak was always bad.
00:33:15 <ccfreak2k> It's just now the media is telling you that.
00:33:26 <SmatZ> what was bad about him?
00:33:31 <ccfreak2k> Wrt. Israel: there's some border tension.
00:34:20 <SmatZ> sorry I have to go now :(
00:34:30 <__ln__> I'm surprised Israel didn't move the border already.
00:34:31 <SmatZ> thanks for the answer though :)
00:35:05 <ccfreak2k> Well IIRC Israel is laying claim on some territory that another adjacent country has, I forgot who.
00:39:04 <ccfreak2k> Some bordering stuff.
00:49:22 <wargh> You never heard much bad about Egypt since Mubarak was best friends with US =)
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02:16:45 <__ln__> shhhhhhhh, everyone's sleeping
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03:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: stop requesting bad features all the time :-P <-- what did i do now?
03:01:16 <ccfreak2k> Requested a bad feature, I would guess.
03:15:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i understand the not-turning-around thing may be annoying at first, but i'm convinced it'll work out better in the long run. plus it was actually MB's request. i just did a bug report!
03:15:28 <supermop> what did you request?
03:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and what the hell is a pbs workaround for terminus stations?
03:16:32 <Filter> I have a question, I've been looking through forums & google but can't find an answer - I'm looking to edit some constants, and since I'm running ubuntu, I have no openttd.cfg, and I was wondering what file to edit in ubuntu
03:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> why wouldn't you have an openttd.cfg in ubuntu?
03:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it's usually in ~/.openttd
03:19:45 <Filter> hmm.. hidden? thanks! brb and report :)
03:20:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that is standard practice on linux
03:21:13 <Filter> yep, thanks for that, it's there..
03:21:37 <Filter> i'm loving this game a bit too much ;)
03:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that's more common than you think :p
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06:38:01 <TruePikachu> OpenTTD just made me want to configure KDE so that scroll wheel on a title bar does shading :)
06:42:56 <TruePikachu> Lol, working on setting up Linux for my Wii...
06:43:36 <TruePikachu> Install instructions for Linux-based PCs use "sudo" at the start of nearly every command, so I "su"'d into root to save keystrokes
06:43:55 <TruePikachu> I swear, I typed "sudo tar -C ..." at root level!
06:45:00 * TruePikachu wonders if he could get OTTD Dedicated server running...on Wii
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06:49:29 <TruePikachu> I just extracted a nonempty /dev directory to SD
06:49:48 <TruePikachu> How can an SD card supply a Wii with new devices other than a block IO?
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08:41:49 <planetmaker> hm, can I define two ground sprites in the same tile layout?
08:43:53 <Yexo> yes, the second one has to be a childsprite though
08:45:07 <planetmaker> ok, so quite feasable. Nice :-)
08:45:37 <planetmaker> it should always be done that way ;-)
08:46:19 <planetmaker> though it might be nice to have OpenTTD always draw the default ground tile actually. Or introduce a NewGRF flag which says 'draw always default ground tile'
08:46:37 <planetmaker> it could reduce many action2 sequences
08:46:52 <planetmaker> one would only need to test snow yes/no
08:47:01 <planetmaker> and then supply the proper overlay graphics
08:47:08 <planetmaker> and not care about ground
08:47:38 <Yexo> in C++ it's even easier, just an extra call to DrawGround
08:48:15 <Yexo> yes, if the newgrf also provides a ground sprite it'll overwrite the one drawn by openttd, if it doesn't the one drawn by openttd is shown
08:48:16 <planetmaker> It could change how newgrfs are made
08:48:33 <Yexo> "drawn by openttd" = the default sprite drawn underneath any graphics the newgrf provides
08:48:35 <planetmaker> overwrite as in replace or as in draw on top
08:52:47 <Yexo> isn't something like what is already done for objects enough?
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08:53:14 <Yexo> if the newgrf provides the basic bare land sprite as groundsprite, openttd will automatically convert it to the correct slope
08:54:24 <planetmaker> I don't know... how does that work exactly?
08:56:11 <planetmaker> hm, not sure it worked for my wind turbine. I supplied GROUNDTILE_NORMAL there and the slope was not respected
08:56:22 <planetmaker> or what do you mean?
08:56:47 <Yexo> did you set the "object has no foundation" flag?
08:56:53 <planetmaker> but if it would - and if it would also draw the correct snow/normal/desert/rain forest without me bothering about - nice
08:57:40 <Yexo> it doesn't respect snow/desert, and for snow/desert you'll also have to provide the slope yourself
08:58:11 <planetmaker> that's why it'll be nice to have the usual ground tile drawn no matter what
08:58:17 <planetmaker> no landscape checks needed then
08:58:36 <planetmaker> unless you want specific awareness
08:58:38 <Yexo> if you draw any building you still have to check for snow
08:58:48 <Yexo> also for offsets you might need to check the slope anyway
08:59:26 <planetmaker> I might, unless I autoslope
08:59:39 <planetmaker> though.. probably even then
09:00:02 <planetmaker> but actually then I don't understand the wind turbin's behaviour. The slope is not maintained
09:00:36 <planetmaker> and I added the slope check as it failed for slopes
09:01:11 <Yexo> that special behavior is only for the default objects
09:01:26 <Yexo> for newgrf objects you'll have to check the slopes in the newgrf
09:07:55 <planetmaker> well... slope awareness is also - due to the offset issue - not easy and probably hardly feasable in an automatic way
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09:08:30 <planetmaker> but the automatic ground tile (which could lead to 'I supply no usable ground tile') makes sense IMHO
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09:08:50 <planetmaker> for industries, objects and houses alike
09:09:19 <planetmaker> 'not usable' = 'transparent' or whatever
09:11:02 <planetmaker> one would just not care about slopes there ;-)
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09:13:16 <dihedral> SmatZ, "happy valintines day" <- with greetings from Karen_ :-P
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09:56:51 <xiong> Erm, FIRS question. It's a bit unclear what's meant by "if delivered together", to get increased production from a secondary industry. Is it sufficient that 1 ton/crate of X be delivered in the same month as any quantity of Y? Or must X and Y be delivered in some correct proportions?
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10:29:27 <Alpaca> Please may I ask a question?
10:30:18 <V453000> Don't ask to ask, just ask
10:30:36 <Alpaca> I couldn't resist, sorry :p
10:30:53 <V453000> alright, where is the question? :)
10:31:41 <Alpaca> right, I was playing a 2048x2048 tropical map with about 250 towns, and i found that my cities just stopped growing. The world population didn't exceed 711,000. Is there a world population limit?
10:32:08 <V453000> we had even over 3 millions :)
10:32:20 <V453000> so if there is a limit, it definitely is not the one you met
10:32:25 <Alpaca> once I demolished towns across the rest of the world, my towns grew again immediately
10:32:55 <V453000> did the towns have enough roads, did they get food And water when in desert, and have you had town_growth_rate greater than zero?
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10:33:24 <Mazur> Couple of hours runtime and we hit the 4.
10:33:48 <Alpaca> town growth speed was on very fast (or fast), plenty of food and water regularly, regular tram services and the entire continent was on a 2x2 road grid
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10:34:45 <V453000> Alpaca: got savegame for me ? :)
10:34:53 <Alpaca> i'll sort one out for you
10:35:22 <Alpaca> it's got a bunch of grfs in it, av8, 2cc, eGRVTS
10:36:43 <Alpaca> thanks for having a look :)
10:36:50 <planetmaker> there's no need to compress savegames
10:36:54 <planetmaker> they are already compressed
10:36:57 <Alpaca> the area in question is australia
10:37:03 <planetmaker> compressing them makes it not better
10:37:17 <planetmaker> the compression algorithm used in 1.1 is actually quite better than rar ;-)
10:37:47 <planetmaker> (unless you modified your default savegame format)
10:38:06 <Alpaca> I once uploaded a map file for HL2 and it is actually text based, so the link opened in the browser with a text file of co-ordinates
10:38:13 <Alpaca> i rar'd everything after that event
10:38:31 <planetmaker> rar is not very common nor efficient ;-)
10:39:02 <planetmaker> ^^ very special hahaha :-)
10:39:13 <planetmaker> see what I mean, Alpaca ?
10:39:23 <Alpaca> i'm re-uploading in .sav
10:39:26 <planetmaker> you want help - make it easy for others to help. Or don't get help. Easy peasy
10:40:14 <Mazur> You're not transporting a single soul in your largest city, is hat intentional?
10:40:36 <V453000> my download just failed, nothing easier could be done from his side ;)
10:41:08 <Alpaca> yeah, we weren't really going for profit, we wanted to fill the continent and I wouldn't be bothered to tackle meekatharra
10:42:21 <V453000> towns grow when passengers are transported
10:42:26 <V453000> otherwise they grow very slowly
10:42:51 <planetmaker> you just need 5 well serviced stations within the town's perimeter
10:43:00 <planetmaker> whatever you transport there - doesn't matter
10:43:12 <Alpaca> everything was growing nicely until world population of 711k, then everything completely stopped. as soon as I demolished towns in the rest of the world, growth spurted immediately
10:43:23 <Mazur> In case the hiccup is at his end.
10:43:30 <planetmaker> a bit ago I checked, but I'm confident, V453000 :-)
10:43:48 <planetmaker> wrt city growth: towns increasingly grow slower the larger they become
10:43:55 <Mazur> planetmaker, perimeter or heart?
10:44:00 <V453000> we never grow towns without transporting passengers, so ...
10:44:17 <planetmaker> Mazur, within the town. Check the tiles which belong to a town
10:44:29 <planetmaker> the town perimeter (radius) is a function of its size
10:45:30 <Rubidium> maybe it's using a house NewGRF that limits some houses to X per map?
10:45:50 <Rubidium> that would make houses much harder to build, and as such it won't really grow anymore
10:46:02 <Mazur> No, I'm betting the 5 stations per town isn;t reached.
10:46:23 <Mazur> Australian map, so plenty towns, only 99 stations.
10:47:10 <Mazur> World map, actually, Australian start.
10:47:14 <Alpaca> meekatharra was the quickest place to grow, never delivered a single passenger and only imported food and water for it
10:47:26 <Mazur> Only Australia build up.
10:47:45 <Alpaca> whilst im here, what do you guys think of the map?
10:48:20 <Mazur> Quick and dirty reaction.
10:49:20 <Alpaca> I didn't take care in choosing town names, just used the first think I spotted in google earth, so some towns I featured are in fact tiny nowhere-villes
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10:52:46 <V453000> too large map for me :) without a real reason imo :)
10:53:18 <Alpaca> so much to do, so little brainpower!
10:53:34 <Alpaca> it makes a nice change to do smaller random maps, gives me more focus
10:56:24 <Mazur> Rubber plantation at Reykjavik. That's certainly novel.
10:57:24 <Alpaca> yeah, and minimal water in europe but billions of tons of water in the sahara
10:57:45 <Mazur> The Sahara used to be smaller.
10:57:59 <Mazur> But that was half a century ago.
10:58:38 <Mazur> Before man won the war on tropical plantlife.
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12:07:08 <planetmaker> salut DanMacK & andythenorth
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12:21:39 <xiong> V453000, Thank you. (Just now read your reply.) Then I will concentrate on doling out small amounts of cargo to secondaries. This strat has worked very well for eng/farm supp to primaries.
12:22:28 <V453000> I myself make a transfer at each supply drop and then create a tiny train that arrives every ~20 days
12:22:39 <V453000> but do not count on it in the future, that behaviour will be changed
12:22:40 <xiong> The matter becomes critical in the case of the Steel Mill, which is advertised to perform better "if two or more" are delivered in the same month.
12:23:07 <V453000> yes, you can make some special train that delivers coal/iron ore/scrap the same way
12:23:17 <V453000> that it will also matter how much supplies you deliver
12:23:24 <xiong> I assume that in the case of the Steel Mill, all 3 cargos in the same month will give me the best performance.
12:23:24 <V453000> not entirely sure how will it look yet
12:23:42 <V453000> not only that, but also a steady metal production, which is quite important
12:24:11 <xiong> Well, that's the other possibility, that I considered: Cargoes X and Y (or X, Y, Z) must be delivered in specified proportions to achieve maximum output.
12:24:27 <V453000> no, that would be stupid :)
12:24:43 <V453000> requiring all cargoes to be delivered
12:25:55 <xiong> The Steel Mill is a special case. Let's just consider the Lime Kiln. You cannot expect to get any output out of a real LK if you only deliver coal; you must supply stone, too. The process requires some amount of both materials and an excess of one or the other is generally wasted.
12:26:23 <V453000> yes, that is the realistic point of view
12:26:44 <V453000> gameplay wise, it is totally stupid to require any amount of anything in a ratio to something else
12:27:17 <xiong> Well then, you'd better stick with "a pinch of X and a trainload of Y is okay".
12:28:01 <xiong> I don't see a rational middle ground.
12:28:20 <V453000> simply: ECS is the prime example of going by realism
12:28:32 <xiong> Never played ECS, sorry.
12:28:34 <V453000> and FIRS shall not be the same fail :)
12:28:50 <V453000> it is a overly messy and chaotic megachain of industries
12:29:03 <V453000> reaching total unplayability even with the most playable settings
12:29:21 <xiong> Well, I'll say, I'll be quite unhappy if the current behavior is significantly changed. I'm only now getting it figured out as it is.
12:30:12 <xiong> I'm delighted with my system of transferring, by train, medium-size loads of engs and running a loop truck to load/unload a few crates per month.
12:31:25 <xiong> At first, I thought to deliver to an auxiliary station and loop from it to the main station. But transferred cargo is not consumed by accepting industries! Which makes my current strat clean and elegant.
12:32:54 * Rubidium envisions a day with cargo destinations and (NewGRF) industries being able to tell how much (relatively) cargo they need for optimum production, and then cargo destinations trying to aim for optimal ranges to each industry
12:33:19 <peter1138> actual supply & demand
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12:34:19 <xiong> V453000, Well, I read that, not thoroughly but I do read very quickly. Doesn't sound too bad; the effect would be the same as currently for new industries.
12:34:33 <xiong> You seem only interested in primaries in that post, though.
12:35:03 <V453000> secondaries should remain as they are
12:35:30 <xiong> You mean, a pinch and a trainload? Really unrealistic.
12:36:04 <xiong> I mean, I don't care; I'm happy with things as they are.
12:36:51 <V453000> realism reaches nothing
12:37:01 <xiong> But if you're going to toggle the primaries around, why not the secondaries, too? Insist that secondaries be fully supplied, or at least better supplied than ramming thousands of tons of Y in, in the same month as 1 crate of X.
12:37:54 <xiong> Well, that's a viewpoint. I'm not a realism fanatic. But I do use it as a yardstick. If something is like the prototype, then it may be reasonable; if it is unlike, it may not be.
12:38:58 <xiong> I don't have an issue with my little loop trucks. Realistically, an industry would not insist on monthly delivery; if that were important, the railroad could simply build a warehouse at the station.
12:39:49 <V453000> I think the way secondaries work is the best one you could get
12:39:55 <V453000> all others seem to be just odd to me
12:39:57 <xiong> So, I'm using an unrealistic solution to cover an unrealistic demand. I'm okay with that. But if you're going to fill in the cracks, I don't know what other guide you can use.
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12:40:16 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: smatz * r22076 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r22075): build failed with GCC
12:40:46 <xiong> My viewpoint probably stems from HO gauge modeling. You make realistic what you can and stuff the rest out of sight as much as possible, and live with the rest.
12:41:33 <V453000> this is a game :) and making a good newGRF means it has to be perfectly playable
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12:41:39 <xiong> There's a limit; you work as closely as you can to that. But it's just crazy to flip out over the inside of a tunnel.
12:42:16 <xiong> Playable? Dunno; I find FIRS plenty playable now. I'm not sure how you think you're going to improve it, I mean, drastically.
12:43:09 <xiong> ... and I'm told I'm not even playing the current release. I gather that if I upgrade, I'll get Sugar Refineries that aren't green blocks.
12:43:52 <xiong> I'd rather see somebody work on ISRS a little, so that all the various FIRS cargoes would have decent platform support. It sucks to have bare platforms.
12:44:48 <V453000> DWE supports FIRS and is compatible with ISR
12:45:59 <planetmaker> V453000, but FIRS does not *require* a ratio
12:46:20 <V453000> I did not say it does :)
12:46:30 <V453000> I also said it _would_ be stupid :)
12:46:44 <planetmaker> it just encourages a certain ratio - which makes somewhat sense and is indeed step up in complexity or difficulty - hehe yeah
12:48:14 <V453000> yes, which is the best way of doing it imo:)
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16:15:11 <Alpaca> No time for chat, there are rail to lay!
16:17:33 <Alpaca> are you yoshi from luukland?
16:19:09 <TGYoshi> and I keep failing there ^^
16:19:20 <TGYoshi> On multiplayer I really never know a good start
16:19:30 <TGYoshi> especially because there's no fast forward -.-
16:19:45 <Alpaca> start with coal is usually the way to go
16:20:02 <Alpaca> that's valuable, and it sets a good income to then do other ventures
16:20:32 <Alpaca> and coal doesn't depreciate quickly, so you can take it far and earn high income
16:20:54 <TGYoshi> But at the begin I just have 200k money
16:21:11 <TGYoshi> It's so important to know how to build your first rail
16:25:12 <Alpaca> i usually go singletrack with a few passing points when I can afford more trains
16:25:26 <Alpaca> it's a cheaper start, and then finish doing double track when I have the money
16:29:10 <TGYoshi> need a game restart now :p
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16:43:26 <IchGuckLive> Hi all,I tryd to grep a scenario but all servers from German Scenarios are down !!
16:44:01 <IchGuckLive> is there a gereal server where the scanios are stored from the wiki side ?
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16:49:27 <IchGuckLive> illeagel websites has been uploadet from meber of your request ,this member has been band from our servers it the issue why the scn from wiki arent available
16:50:34 <IchGuckLive> so in this case someone shoudt remove the German scearios from the Wiki
16:55:20 <IchGuckLive> did someone backup this files ?
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17:02:47 <SpComb> the wiki page with scenarios is full of broken links
17:08:07 <Wolf01> gah, half of web gives timeout, I have a really high ping :E
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17:15:15 <lugo> Wolf01, just out of curiosity, is there any progress on NADP? :)
17:15:43 <Wolf01> no, people doesn't look interestes (apart you now) so I drop the development
17:23:42 <DanMacK> Ahh I've been following it
17:24:20 <lugo> ah that's sad, i reckon there's no daylength-patch around, besides yours, which cleanly applies to trunk (not cargodist) right now, is there?
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18:01:39 * DanMacK wonders if capacity can be altered from "Tons"
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18:19:53 <DanMacK> Kilos or something... (just a thought)
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18:27:32 <Rubidium> dihedral: use SI units
18:27:41 <Rubidium> DanMacK: use SI units
18:28:41 <__ln__> it's not that dihedral shouldn't also use SI units
18:28:58 * DanMacK is wondering about doing an "early era" scenario for TTD
18:29:36 <DanMacK> for the extra sadistic among us
18:30:07 <__ln__> DanMacK: Jurassic Tycoon?
18:32:58 <Terkhen> wasn't it called dino park tycoon?
18:33:10 <DanMacK> Maybe 2000BC :P Horsecarts and small barges
18:34:38 <__ln__> Terkhen: oh, there really is something like that
18:35:06 <Terkhen> __ln__: yes, I remember trying it but it was not very good
18:36:20 * DanMacK is thinking along the lines of "Trade Empires" or something similar
18:45:30 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22077 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
18:45:30 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:30 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: latvian - 2 changes by skazhy
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19:16:53 <planetmaker> heya andythenorth
19:18:10 <andythenorth> frosch123: the proposal tileslope indexing looks interesting
19:18:24 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22078 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4499]: maximum train length interfered with wagon replacement when wagon removal was turned on
19:18:49 <frosch123> andythenorth: just considered it would make sense to add the option to specify a register to every item of the sprite layout
19:19:19 <andythenorth> can you explain a bit more what it would mean in practice?
19:19:28 <frosch123> including 7d variables
19:19:30 <andythenorth> it sounds similar to an idea I had when I saw Yexo's FIRS patch
19:20:34 <frosch123> it would mean to replace the "00 B Literal 0 (to distinguish this definition from random/variational lists)" with something else to detect the new format, and then add another byte resp. two bytes in case of 60+x variables to every groundsprite/buildingssprite/childsprite
19:21:12 <frosch123> then you can add completely custom offsets to every sprite of the spritelayout
19:21:34 <frosch123> hmm, though maybe there should also be a var-adjust
19:22:08 <andythenorth> so this is a change to layouts?
19:22:12 <frosch123> otoh, production callbacks only require access to normal 7d registers
19:22:15 <andythenorth> tile action 2 remains unchanged?
19:22:18 <frosch123> so one could do the same for the spritelayouts
19:23:09 <frosch123> basically yes, though it causes trouble if you need very different numbers of sprites within each layout
19:23:15 <andythenorth> my idea was dangerous
19:23:16 <planetmaker> frosch123: a solution which works for all, houses, airport tiles, industry tiles would be gorgous
19:23:22 <frosch123> as the action1 can only put the same amount of sprites into one set
19:23:35 <planetmaker> it'd be nice if one would not need to specify a ground tile
19:23:39 <frosch123> planetmaker: of course it would work for all
19:23:41 <andythenorth> I wanted to introduce something to allow the real sprite ID to be a calculated reference
19:23:42 <planetmaker> and could just plant something
19:23:59 <andythenorth> so instead of \dx80008003 //groundsprite
19:24:06 <planetmaker> I like the idea with the continuous sequence of sprites for all slopes
19:25:23 <frosch123> planetmaker: i am not sure about default ttd sprites
19:25:43 <frosch123> maybe it would require different sprite positions for them
19:28:23 <planetmaker> frosch123: different slopes will need different offsets, sure.
19:28:49 <planetmaker> but the need to not draw a ground tile, will make many things easier. Among them the task to fit into both, TTD and OpenGFX landscape
19:29:13 <frosch123> however, at least the default groundsprites are in the correct order (like 3924..3942, 3942..3961, 3962..3980, 3981..3999, ...)
19:29:24 <planetmaker> It could, though, be handled just the way that ground sprites become optional (they are already) - and the default ground sprite is always drawn as if nothing was built
19:29:50 <frosch123> planetmaker: i don't want a special case for ground sprites
19:30:09 <frosch123> if the general method works for it, it is fine
19:30:37 <frosch123> if it does not work, one has to wonder whether it is of any use for new stuff
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19:34:05 <planetmaker> frosch123: just drawing the existing ground sprite no matter what can be done jointly with your suggestion
19:34:24 <frosch123> planetmaker: are you sure it will be in the right position?
19:34:32 <frosch123> or maybe with some vertical offset?
19:35:04 <planetmaker> frosch123: what would we loose if the ground sprites are always drawn and then only the industry supplied ground sprites on top?
19:35:17 <planetmaker> like: draw industry on the existing landscape
19:35:39 <frosch123> you add another special case to increase the complexity and mess
19:35:56 <planetmaker> no special case. Not newgrf-influenced
19:35:59 <frosch123> it's like adding a setting to always show the full date in the status bar :)
19:36:07 <JVassie> Hmm, anyone know when the ability to add newgrfs in the middle of a game got removed?
19:36:11 <planetmaker> just always draw the ground
19:36:29 <planetmaker> I see not where that is detrimental
19:36:37 <planetmaker> and where it is a 'special case'
19:36:52 <planetmaker> maybe I just miss something, but...
19:37:14 <frosch123> oh, you mean like always overdrawing it
19:38:26 <frosch123> i am not that sure grass is the most often case. often there is also concrete, esp. for houses
19:38:43 <frosch123> andys forest uses 2/3 grass or similar
19:39:13 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22079 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix: The owner view of the smallmap was not updated after a company colour change.
19:39:17 <andythenorth> JVassie: some time in the past
19:39:20 <planetmaker> well. Farms, saw mills, ...
19:39:28 <andythenorth> JVassie certainly didn't happen in the future
19:39:53 <andythenorth> what's gained by always drawing the ground?
19:39:54 <planetmaker> likewise for suburb houses
19:40:02 <andythenorth> I have no case for it
19:40:11 <andythenorth> although it would also do no harm
19:40:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you do. Farms, mines, ...
19:40:34 <planetmaker> all those don't need to supply and specify a ground tile. And could also go on slope then
19:40:40 <planetmaker> e.g. some sheep ;-)
19:40:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I guess I'm used to specifying the ground tile
19:41:04 <andythenorth> now I know where the tile guide is in ottd docs, it's not hard :)
19:41:08 <andythenorth> but the first time....
19:41:26 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I got the idea for the sand pit's houses
19:41:33 <planetmaker> it could then just define some overlay dirt
19:41:52 <andythenorth> ground tiles arent a major trauma to me
19:41:57 <andythenorth> but that's because I've solved it
19:42:05 <andythenorth> using a nested system of templates and defines
19:42:11 <andythenorth> that would be easier if not needed
19:42:16 <planetmaker> yes. which hides the many branches
19:42:28 <planetmaker> and climate-specifics. and snow-awareness
19:42:43 <planetmaker> is wouldn't be needed then
19:42:44 <frosch123> planetmaker: well, you could likely add some special value, like 0, for the groundsprite, to make it draw the default grass/snow/water/...
19:42:59 <planetmaker> hm, that might be a good idea :-)
19:43:21 <andythenorth> seems like if I'm checking in nfo, that could equivalently and effectively be a 'helper' in trunk?
19:43:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth: my point ;-)
19:43:38 <andythenorth> it's not particularly grf specific magic
19:43:41 <frosch123> we already have something simliar with drawing canal sprites when the groundtile is the plani water sprite
19:43:43 <andythenorth> it just imposes extra coding
19:44:00 <planetmaker> yes. Tedious, error prone and boring one at that
19:44:09 <planetmaker> especially boring
19:44:18 <planetmaker> and often-desired
19:44:21 <andythenorth> but I'd still need to branch for snow / not snow
19:44:35 <planetmaker> yes. that's 2 cases. Not 4 or maybe more
19:44:49 <andythenorth> I wish the actual real sprite ID could be the result of a procedure call
19:45:03 <andythenorth> then the number of action 2s is reduced
19:45:20 <andythenorth> I have solved it with templating, but it makes it more complicated to maintain
19:45:39 <planetmaker> I think that's what frosch kinda suggested earlier bfore I joined the discussion on a tangent ;-)
19:46:42 <andythenorth> sprite order, bounding box + offsets seem like structure
19:46:49 <andythenorth> actual real sprite to use seems like content
19:46:59 <andythenorth> repeating structure seems unnecessary
19:47:03 <andythenorth> only the content needs to change
19:47:21 <andythenorth> but I can't see how it would be done
19:47:35 <andythenorth> using a varaction 2 that returns a realsprite ID looks impossible
19:48:02 <frosch123> i'll write something down (as usual without implementing it :p )
19:48:36 <andythenorth> I can't make sense of it quite
19:48:41 <andythenorth> I know what makes sense to author
19:48:48 <andythenorth> but not the implementation
19:49:14 <andythenorth> I ran into the same issue with animation
19:49:27 <andythenorth> making and maintaining animation tiles is a serious chore
19:50:54 <planetmaker> he... good point, frosch123 ^ - same concept could probably be applied there, too
19:52:38 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22080 /trunk/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: Add doxygen comments to a few functions and improve a few existing comments
20:16:47 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: glx * r22081 /trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp: -Fix [FS#4489]: if fullscreen fails with current resolution, use desktop resolution
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20:20:06 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22082 /branches/1.1/: [1.1] -Branch: for the 1.1 series
20:21:11 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22083 /trunk/ (12 files in 10 dirs): -Change: trunk is heading towards 1.2 now
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20:32:06 <JVassie> <andythenorth> JVassie: some time in the past
20:32:07 <JVassie> <planetmaker> well. Farms, saw mills, ...
20:32:07 <JVassie> <andythenorth> JVassie certainly didn't happen in the future
20:33:38 <planetmaker> this quote seems silly to me
20:34:55 <JVassie> is there any way at all to change .grf's in a game that has been started now?
20:35:28 <andythenorth> JVassie: why do you want to?
20:35:36 <andythenorth> (you and lots of other people it seems)
20:35:55 <planetmaker> JVassie: if you just started a game: create a new one. No problem
20:36:12 <planetmaker> If you want to modify an old savegame: is and has been always a bad idea. Don't do it
20:36:20 <Rubidium> knive... no.... spoon..... no....... fork! ;)
20:37:47 <Belugas> "Eating with a spoon.. They don't give you knives?"
20:39:31 <planetmaker> crazy? Yes. Stupid? No ;-)
20:40:30 <Belugas> Peter Gabriel - Family snapshot
20:40:49 <JVassie> planetmaker, i had an old version of URKS addon
20:40:55 <JVassie> i now have the new version
20:41:04 <JVassie> i have no trains of the old grf
20:42:32 <planetmaker> still dangerous. It could disable your industry newgrf.
20:43:12 <JVassie> Peter Gabriel - The Book of Love
20:43:21 <planetmaker> and when you don't have trains... then you can start anew as well
20:43:52 <andythenorth> JVassie: there is a way
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20:44:54 <andythenorth> but if you then report *any* bugs, dihedral will cut your fingers off
20:44:56 <andythenorth> rightly or wrongly
20:45:00 <andythenorth> that's the price of entry
20:45:12 <JVassie> i dont report bugs in general
20:45:21 <JVassie> i dont tend to fidn any
20:45:34 <JVassie> it more tends to be removed features
20:45:40 <JVassie> liek changing newgrfs midgame
20:45:52 <planetmaker> it has never been a feature
20:46:00 <andythenorth> it was definitely a misfeature
20:46:27 <planetmaker> maybe I should start to use that word, too
20:46:29 <dihedral> not just report bugs
20:46:40 <dihedral> a simple thread "my game crashed" ....
20:47:05 <JVassie> ive been around too long to post silly threads like that
20:47:09 <planetmaker> also not the problem. But people then generally are not knowledgable enough of what is the result of their raping the savegame and what is a genuine bug
20:47:27 <JVassie> will be 10 years end of 2012
20:47:44 <dihedral> "raping the savegame" :-D
20:49:19 <JVassie> NewGRF debuggign doesnt look helpful :s
20:50:19 <dihedral> what use does that developer tool have if everybody disregards the warnings and fiddles with that setting?
20:51:16 <JVassie> actually dotn never mind
20:51:18 <Belugas> make it just a bit more tedious? meaning yu really have to do it in orider to do it
20:52:03 <planetmaker> look at the time of the quotations
20:52:14 <planetmaker> 8 hours and everything forgotten
20:52:28 <planetmaker> and "I never ever will..."
20:53:35 <dihedral> those people just make me mad
20:53:41 <andythenorth> my german is not so good :[
20:54:19 <dihedral> they want to tamper with everything and have no clue what they do - they want "undo" buttons and patented shortcuts ....
20:54:22 <planetmaker> andy: 10am: "I never will report anything related to newgrf messing". 6pm: "I've a problem with the savegame when I updated it from ECS 0.6 to ECS 1.0"
20:55:25 <dihedral> i'd not even tell users about the setting to be honest
20:55:44 <dihedral> in fact, i'd remove the setting from anything but special builds
20:55:51 <Rubidium> dihedral: just tell them to fork OpenTTD if they don't like the change
20:56:21 <dihedral> and "OpenTTD" or .....
20:56:22 <planetmaker> dihedral: nah, that might not be too good... too many newgrf developers don't build themselves
20:56:37 <dihedral> who is talking about 'building themselves'
20:56:48 <dihedral> it could still run via the cf
20:56:54 * andythenorth writes some code
20:57:54 <dihedral> hehe - and disable networking for those builds :-D hehe
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21:09:01 <dihedral> planetmaker, can you not enject something which brakes savegames after exactly 5 years when those dev tools were used? :-D
21:10:58 <andythenorth> how about enabling developer tools *always* screws with money?
21:11:05 <andythenorth> i.e. provides $1bn
21:13:02 <planetmaker> dihedral: andythenorth both would reduce their usefulness
21:13:26 <planetmaker> like money... how would that work when I join a MP server?
21:13:42 <planetmaker> like kill a game after 5 years... too little time to actually test many things
21:13:45 <dihedral> why do you want to make it MP safe?
21:13:48 <Terkhen> IMO a setting is enough; anyone setting that on should live by the consequences
21:14:09 * andythenorth wonders if 'starting money' is hidden in the config somewhere
21:14:14 <dihedral> and so everybody else has to put up with the threads in the forums
21:14:22 <planetmaker> dihedral: because I otherwise would need two or three config files ;-)
21:14:34 <planetmaker> and I couldn't check sprite alignment anymore when I'm on our servers
21:15:16 <planetmaker> or checking the active CB and vehicle vars on a server game is also quite useful
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21:15:36 <planetmaker> as those are the games where many things are most easily tested - other people build the test game for me there :-P
21:16:07 <andythenorth> not having to visit the cheat menu every time I start a FIRS industry placement test would be nice :P
21:16:19 <andythenorth> I am wearing out my alt-ctrl-c keys :P
21:16:56 <andythenorth> "screw gameplay, what matters is that the game is a decent *developer* environment"
21:17:00 * andythenorth back to the code
21:18:35 <planetmaker> well. Developer tools should be an add-on. If other parts of the code behave differently they might start to be of limited use
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21:20:04 * andythenorth boards the log raft of pain
21:21:02 <planetmaker> note, that this conversation is log(g)ed ;-)
21:22:27 * andythenorth wonders where the logs are
21:23:17 <andythenorth> "It's log, it's log, it's better than wood it's good"
21:23:52 <Prof_Frink> If concealed the logs in a sufficiently complex directory structure
21:24:09 <Prof_Frink> You wouldn't be able to see the wood for the tree.
21:26:59 <andythenorth> I was trying to test the FISH log raft
21:27:09 <andythenorth> but was accidentally compiling FIRS :P
21:27:16 <andythenorth> wondered why my changes weren't showing up
21:27:51 * Prof_Frink hands andythenorth a chainsaw
21:27:53 <planetmaker> but it's not a 1st time that happens :-)
21:28:19 <andythenorth> I have idiot-proof colour coded terminal windows
21:28:28 <andythenorth> but apparently I am a higher class of idiot
21:29:08 <andythenorth> a broken down ship reports a speed >0
21:29:27 <andythenorth> or so my FISH code thinks
21:29:36 <andythenorth> anyone want to read src to prove me wrong?
21:33:07 * dihedral needs to disable developer tools in himself :-P
21:33:36 <andythenorth> I'm using var B4 to check speed
21:36:08 <andythenorth> which isn't updated when broken down?
21:36:10 <glx> and it's set to 0 on break_down
21:36:19 <andythenorth> maybe I screwed up my nfo
21:42:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r22084 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Change: [NewGRF] Check grf version strictly and consider grfs with version < 2 as incompatible. If you have trouble with certain grfs from BaNaNaS, then bother the author about fixing the grf.
21:44:05 <andythenorth> does that include a url to find the author? :P
21:44:11 <andythenorth> no, I know, it can't :)
21:44:34 <planetmaker> the grfs can tell... as do yours
21:46:43 * andythenorth only has 12 full sets of offsets to adjust :)
21:50:17 <frosch123> someone knows how long the complains lasted when the parts of dual headed parts could no longer be moved and turned individually?
21:50:46 <Eddi|zuHause> was that ever possible?
21:51:02 <volta> hi folks, i have a complaint about town names: i'm using german names and one of the towns is named 'Waldwald', which doesn't make much sense in german
21:51:07 <frosch123> it is still possible in ttdp
21:51:18 <andythenorth> ttdp is known to be superior :)
21:51:23 <andythenorth> and contains no misfeatures
21:52:56 <ABCRic> volta: if my translator is correct... xD
21:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> volta: why would "Waldwald" be less sensible than "Baden Baden"?
21:54:22 <volta> baden baden is a real town! somewhere in baden :P
21:54:46 <ABCRic> guess the name generator needs a check for duplicates, then :P
21:55:21 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it is possible in 0.3.5, it is not possible in 0.4.8
21:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: afair my first version was 0.4.0
21:56:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and i started playing extensively with something r3300-ish
21:56:23 <peter1138> that was another bjarni change
21:58:01 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it is just the thing that came to mind when i read the complains from that neko guy
21:58:14 <andythenorth> TGYoshi: you played a FIRS game?
21:58:18 <frosch123> a "feature" which did not make a lot sense and was "fixed" by removal
21:58:27 <TGYoshi> andythenorth: What the heck is firs :P
21:58:44 <TGYoshi> don't remember those short names xD
21:58:50 <TGYoshi> that one with extra industies?
21:58:56 <TGYoshi> or new stations and stuff?
21:59:35 <TGYoshi> it upgrades the game alot :D
22:04:13 <andythenorth> I remembered why I stay out of the 'problems' forum
22:04:19 <andythenorth> nothing good happens in there
22:04:43 <TGYoshi> I just spam all my problems here :D
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22:15:56 <ABCRic> The problems forum is such a nice place
22:16:32 <ABCRic> everyone reads the stickies and posts helpful information
22:18:17 <ABCRic> although a setting to disable placing of transmitters during map generation is an idea
22:19:22 <Terkhen> can't you do the same with a NewGRF?
22:20:26 <ABCRic> Terkhen: possibly, I don't know. But a setting would be more useful, no?
22:30:15 <SmatZ> wouldn't that window get too big?
22:30:39 <planetmaker> do you think? do you have it open all the time?
22:31:05 <SmatZ> well, I use ctrl+(shift)+n shortcuts :)
22:31:08 <planetmaker> I mean... you see its size, it would not really get (much) more. Maybe one or two lines
22:31:34 <planetmaker> I only use x to switch between my configured setting and all ;-)
22:32:53 <planetmaker> Townnames are missing and waypoints. hm
22:39:42 <planetmaker> time for bed... good night :-)
22:40:24 <SmatZ> good night planetmaker :)
22:41:44 <planetmaker> but SmatZ if you have an idea how to add the other 4 needed elements in the existing window... I'm grateful for suggestions. Keeping it small and concise while clear... not easy :-)
22:41:59 <planetmaker> But I guess, andy will have an idea, too ;-)
22:42:15 <planetmaker> And I'm probably too tired today to get something better :-)
22:43:00 <SmatZ> planetmaker: using separate window for this is out of question?
22:43:39 <SmatZ> if that window will have more than 10 elements, they won't be selectable by ctrl+(shift)+n
22:44:10 <SmatZ> those "text" thingies are mostly just on/off, they don't have "transparency" mode
22:45:58 <SmatZ> I don't really see adding those buttons as a "needed elements"
22:49:41 <planetmaker> well... not really needed probably. I'd like to see the menu in the upper left of the screenshot gone. It's pointless and yet another place for settings
22:50:01 <planetmaker> and I'm thinking what to add additionally to the transparency window
22:53:19 <planetmaker> well, let's disucss it tomorrow :-)
22:54:36 <SmatZ> + return _settings_client.gui.show_town_names << DO_SHOW_TOWN_NAMES
22:54:37 <SmatZ> + + _settings_client.gui.show_station_names << DO_SHOW_STATION_NAMES
22:54:46 <SmatZ> I think this doesn't do what you think it does :)
22:55:08 <planetmaker> it doesn't do what I want. yes
22:55:44 <SmatZ> I see you change it again in 030 :)
22:56:01 <planetmaker> ah, then not old, but... messed up queue :-P
22:58:09 <planetmaker> thanks for that hint and now really good night ;-)
22:58:14 <planetmaker> (why does that never work?)
22:58:34 <SmatZ> + has higher priority than <<
22:58:52 <SmatZ> so "1 << 2 + 3" is "1 << (2 + 3)"
22:58:54 <Terkhen> good night planetmaker :)
23:36:45 <xiong> What is with new Coal Mines? They seem to come in small, sometimes just 2x3. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with output. But game-start mines are 4x4.
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