IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-02-13
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00:50:14 <xiong> I dunno. Somebody, a week ago, was talking with me about industrial service, particularly about the technique of delivering small quantities of FIRS engineering and farm supplies regularly. I started to think I should write it up for the openttd wiki but for that, I loaded a vanilla setup with no NewGRFs. I wrote a lot of words and made a lot of screenshots but I think this misses the purpose.
00:51:38 <xiong> I've been writing up a few other strategies I've been using and they all eventually seem to come back to FIRS. Would there be any welcome for a FIRS walkthrough? I wouldn't pretend to write the definitive guide but there's really very little documentation on it. And a FIRS game is significantly different from others.
01:09:47 <xiong> I'd enjoy a comment on the thought.
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03:36:03 <xiong> Yexo, That's a very, very basic intro.
03:36:36 <xiong> I had in mind to cover quite a few topics that all seem to revolve around FIRS, although they may apply to other layouts, of course.
03:37:06 <Yexo> yes, it's still basic, but maybe you could expand it
03:37:15 <xiong> There is the notion of regular delivery to primary industries; that's the last point touched on.
03:37:23 <Yexo> anyway, I shouldn't be commenting on IRC after too much alcohol on this hour
03:37:54 <xiong> Your drunken comments are worth more than no comments at all.
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06:43:43 <z-MaTRiX> some new terraforming limits?
06:45:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you are an early bird today :o
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06:45:54 <planetmaker> People started to move away the snow from the footwalk - which awoke me
06:46:10 <planetmaker> But it's not a bad time to be awake :-)
06:46:41 <andythenorth> UK snow has long vanished
06:46:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'm just reading through the fences... it's awesome
06:47:03 <andythenorth> you know that awesome actually means 'scary' ?
06:47:09 <andythenorth> in the strict meaning :P
06:47:17 <z-MaTRiX> Milk Inc. - Wide Awake (Extended Mix).mp3
06:48:05 <planetmaker> when I first heart (and learnt) the word 'awesome' I thought it meant about the same as aweful and was totally confused
06:48:24 <planetmaker> gesture, posture and voice didn't fit what I thought was said :-P
06:49:45 <z-MaTRiX> btw pulseaudio is buggy
06:50:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I haven't quite yet managed to "port" that to e.g. the furniture factory. So I'm not through yet, though
06:50:04 <z-MaTRiX> floods /var/log/messages till the hdd is full
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06:50:53 <z-MaTRiX> firefox brought up a page
06:50:56 <z-MaTRiX> Well, this is embarrassing.
06:51:03 <z-MaTRiX> Firefox is having trouble recovering your windows and tabs. This is usually caused by a recently opened web page.
06:51:49 <planetmaker> and it'll need some parameter adjustment, if you want fences available as parameter
06:53:16 <planetmaker> anyway... back in a bit. Bakery opens and I want fresh rolls :-)
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07:11:15 <xiong> z-MaTRiX, Google Chrome. Really. I wasn't sure at first and for some time afterward. Part of my issue was that the vanilla Chrome, right out of the box, is so stripped-down I thought it was missing something.
07:12:06 <xiong> Well, it is: It's missing almost everything that can be missing, so it's rock-solid. Then I went and started to add on the extensions to make it do what I wanted. Now, I'm extremely happy.
07:13:34 <xiong> I have never had a Chrome crash or hang seriously. I tend to open dozens of windows and hundreds of tabs and, yes, eventually I run out of memory and have to wait for swap. But that's my fault and it was only much worse with FF.
07:13:43 <z-MaTRiX> chrome filled my logs?
07:14:11 <z-MaTRiX> ah no it wasnt even ruunning
07:14:23 <z-MaTRiX> btw chrome does not support flash yet
07:14:27 <xiong> z-MaTRiX, Perhaps I have a log file somewhere, growing monstrously. I don't know. I haven't had that issue come up; my disk is not full.
07:14:57 <z-MaTRiX> but i like t he chrome idea
07:15:04 <xiong> There's a Flash extension or three, I suppose. I detest Flash, personally but if you want it, I think you can have it.
07:15:23 <z-MaTRiX> i have installed flash plugin
07:15:23 <xiong> Chrome doesn't support very much all by itself, is what I was saying.
07:15:35 <z-MaTRiX> and "working" in firefox
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07:18:10 <z-MaTRiX> wonder why i got / root fs full message when /var is on a 2GB seperate fs
07:19:47 <z-MaTRiX> [root@matrix log]# ln -s /dev/null ./messages
07:19:56 <z-MaTRiX> now i did temporarily
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08:56:59 * andythenorth ponders some kind of 'newgrf_developer_tools = 2' mode
08:57:10 <andythenorth> allows building anything whether paused or not
08:57:22 <andythenorth> and provides $1bn cash immediately
09:00:05 <planetmaker> andythenorth: developer=1 ;-)
09:00:17 <planetmaker> and scenario editor
09:00:46 <planetmaker> and you set your pause build mode to 'allow all' already?
09:01:32 <andythenorth> I often lose my settings for some reason
09:01:52 <planetmaker> where's your openttd.cfg?
09:01:54 <andythenorth> probably because I don't save a game before I quit
09:02:04 <andythenorth> I have to save a game to get config to write changes
09:02:28 <planetmaker> but you must not kill OpenTTD
09:02:33 <andythenorth> yeah, I do that a lot
09:02:37 <planetmaker> and savegame changes never get written to the config file
09:02:52 <planetmaker> well, that'll loose them, yes
09:03:31 <planetmaker> only config changes made from the main menu will - when OpenTTD is terminated normally - be written to the cfg
09:04:05 <andythenorth> that's the issue then
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10:09:55 <heffer> i can reproduce the bug here
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10:13:26 <heffer> seems to be a bug when using the ChooChoo AI
10:14:19 <planetmaker> did you try with current trunk?
10:14:35 <planetmaker> there was somewhat recentlish a fix related to the squirrel implementation / API
10:15:45 <heffer> compiling from a nightly should be enough?
10:20:59 * andythenorth wonders what it takes to fix ship smoke?
10:21:12 <andythenorth> can it be done by adding a cb?
10:24:44 <andythenorth> the ideas got derailed by a cross MB
10:37:42 <Rubidium> heffer: reproduce in what kind of timeframe? A few seconds? Several hours?
10:38:17 <heffer> Rubidium: seconds after buying out the company "ChooChoo" which is the yellow one (second on the list)
10:38:23 <heffer> but only with ChooChoo AI enabled
10:38:34 <heffer> i'll try a nightly right now
10:38:44 <Rubidium> oh, missed that action
10:39:29 <xiong> Hey, yeh, I had crashing AI when buying out; ChooChoo involved.
10:39:38 <heffer> okay the nightly seems to survive the buying out
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10:43:14 <heffer> i'll give the guy an RPM of the latest nightly and ask him to play with it for a while
10:45:50 * Rubidium doesn't really have a clue what change would fix that issue though
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10:52:25 <andythenorth> everyone coding :D
10:52:30 * andythenorth has no idea if that's true
10:52:58 <TGYoshi> Do you've got some tips to start well in multiplayer games?
10:53:05 <TGYoshi> As I usually fail fast :P
10:53:14 <planetmaker> same tips as for SP
10:53:25 <planetmaker> build a moderately long, profitable route
10:53:29 <TGYoshi> Hitting the fast forward button?
10:53:35 <andythenorth> important: don't forget you can't pause
10:53:41 <andythenorth> this is a problem when there is about to be a crash
10:53:47 <andythenorth> I always get rinsed in MP when I try
10:54:15 <TGYoshi> I'm a kinda noob in ttd :D
10:54:53 <TGYoshi> By the way.. the 'auto-replace old vehicles' function isn't really liking me I think :\
10:57:35 <planetmaker> did you read the wiki's tutorial?
10:57:59 <TGYoshi> About the one-line route from coal to power thing?
10:58:10 <planetmaker> build for a start a route as long as possible as you can afford (mind the price for one or two trains with wagons)
10:58:19 <planetmaker> do that, and you're done
10:58:47 <TGYoshi> Why as long as possible?
11:01:20 <planetmaker> two short routes usually pay less than one long route of the same length
11:01:36 <planetmaker> except when vehicles are very slow or distances VERY large. Usually
11:01:55 <planetmaker> with route length I mean the distance between station signs. Not the actual route length
11:02:24 <TGYoshi> I just go to industry list
11:02:35 <TGYoshi> Then get the highest coal thing
11:02:44 <planetmaker> well. Do what you like to do. You got my answer
11:02:45 <TGYoshi> Find a power thingy near
11:03:10 <TGYoshi> I still don't get why people build long railways first O_O
11:03:26 <planetmaker> [12:01] <planetmaker> two short routes usually pay less than one long route of the same length
11:03:44 <TGYoshi> yea, explain that please?
11:04:20 <planetmaker> I could also try to explain "what is green".
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11:04:44 <TGYoshi> I can explain the inversed of what you explained
11:05:01 <TGYoshi> Short distance is fast traveling, fast delivering, cheap ;D
11:05:11 <TGYoshi> Long is long dilivering, higher route costs
11:05:38 <planetmaker> you get paid for transport. You don't buy and sell the cargo
11:05:43 <xiong> Dunno, maybe it's because I start in 1850. I find the easiest, most profitable start to be to connect two towns with pax service, two towns so close together that the stations almost touch.
11:06:01 <andythenorth> I always build short routes first
11:06:04 <planetmaker> a taxi also makes more earnings, if you drive from paris to berlin. and not berlin central to berlin central+1
11:06:16 <andythenorth> but you get cashflow faster with a short route
11:06:28 <TGYoshi> I thought I got paid by dilivering an amount of goods
11:06:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not really
11:06:31 <andythenorth> I haven't tested the strategy one against the other
11:06:32 <xiong> But it takes more time to go further. The most profitable taxicab fare is the shortest.
11:06:57 <TGYoshi> So creating alot of circles before the next station gives more money ^^
11:06:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker: has it been tested in mp?
11:06:59 <planetmaker> the only difference is the one month longer build time and one month longer travel time. Or so. But the money is MUCH higher
11:07:05 <planetmaker> andythenorth: of course ;-)
11:07:06 <andythenorth> flat map, same vehicles?
11:07:08 <xiong> In the case of pax/mail, time is important anyway.
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11:07:29 <TGYoshi> Ok, didn't know that, thanks :P
11:07:30 <planetmaker> how else would we stomp a competitive MP server so that all others surrender? ;-)
11:07:40 <planetmaker> was quite fun back then :-P
11:07:46 <TGYoshi> Now I get why people start with long roads D=
11:07:54 <TGYoshi> Ok last question I think
11:08:02 * andythenorth wants to argue the case about short routes
11:08:03 <TGYoshi> What are one-way railroad signals or so?
11:08:11 <TGYoshi> I want to try a system with 2 lanes ^^
11:08:15 <andythenorth> but arguing with empirical evidence is quite often dumb :P
11:08:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth: just look at the payment graph and it becomes quite evident that you have to ship medium to long routes for max. profit
11:08:44 <xiong> Well, planetmaker should know. It's probably just my weird play style. But last game, I had a pax route from one side to the other of the map, about 500 tiles; with an optional stop in-between. I found that express trains were no more profitable than those that made the intermediate stop.
11:09:12 <planetmaker> and mind that unloading time counts, too, thus that relative dead time is longer
11:09:44 <TGYoshi> Changes the game goal for me totally :P
11:09:51 <xiong> This game, I have the nearly-touching stations and they make almost as much money, per year, as did the 250-tile haul.
11:10:31 <TGYoshi> The fact is that you can't fast forward in MP
11:10:36 <TGYoshi> So loading times are soooooooooo slow
11:10:51 <TGYoshi> then I can understand that fast routes are working way better
11:11:01 <TGYoshi> As traveling then doesn't matter
11:11:31 <xiong> Actually, now that I think of it, the cases aren't comparable, and I think the advantage is to the touching stations. Because in the long haul route, I MU'd two engines and ran longer trains. So ostensibly, the MU'd, double-length trains should have been twice as profitable, all other things equal. No?
11:12:49 <xiong> TGYoshi, Sorry; did you answer your question about one-way signals?
11:14:52 <TGYoshi> xiong: I can hardly answer my own question
11:15:02 <TGYoshi> The wiki tells me there is one :P
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11:15:09 <TGYoshi> I just don't see it O_O
11:15:13 <xiong> Well, it seemed to have got skipped over.
11:15:28 <xiong> Signals are not simple. You read the wiki page; that's good.
11:15:49 <TGYoshi> complicated stuff is good as long they can be used simple too :D
11:16:03 <xiong> You see six different types of signal. The first and most important idea is that they fall into two separate categories, block and path.
11:16:23 <xiong> The first 4 are block, the last 2 are path.
11:16:42 <xiong> By "one-way", do you mean one-way path signals?
11:17:04 <TGYoshi> What's the difference?
11:17:45 <xiong> Well, I dunno if you want me to explain the whole thing, blow by blow. I can give you a very easy strat for signalling your layout, if you like. It may not be optimal but it will work pretty well.
11:18:08 <xiong> I'm happy to explain almost anything in great detail but often, I lose my audience. ;)
11:18:25 <TGYoshi> That's fine, just don't go too complicated :P
11:18:38 <TGYoshi> I'm mainly using the default selected sign thingy
11:18:48 <TGYoshi> that one prevents crashing :P
11:19:00 <TGYoshi> But now I want to have 2 lanes, both going one way
11:19:05 <xiong> Well, you can choose which signal is the default; go to Advanced Settings.
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11:20:18 <xiong> I suggest you choose standard path signals. Also, set your signal spacing to 2. Then, simply signal every piece of track you have that way. The signals should face *against* the flow of traffic, so that the engineer in the cab of the engine can see them.
11:20:57 <xiong> It's easier to have traffic going only one way on each section of track, than to set up bidirectional track.
11:21:33 <xiong> You have probably been using normal block signals, which will allow bidirectional travel but, if used alone, may screw you up quickly.
11:21:51 <TGYoshi> Standart thing seems to be 'Route signals'
11:21:59 <xiong> Use standard path signals, which are the 5th is the GUI.
11:22:06 <TGYoshi> (no idea if I translate right)
11:22:29 <TGYoshi> yea, that one is standart
11:23:25 <xiong> Well, words are tricky and the jargon seems not to be entirely consistent. From left to right in the signal GUI, I call them: "normal block", "entry", "exit", "combo", "standard path", and "one-way path".
11:23:49 <xiong> Each one works differently from the others.
11:24:47 <xiong> If you use standard path signals everywhere, you will probably get what you want. If you find trains going the wrong way, or hung up, stalled, waiting to go the wrong way, then you may need to change just one signal to a one-way path.
11:25:09 <TGYoshi> I do use them right now :P
11:25:25 <xiong> I like to put a one-way path signal right in front of any depot. That's usually enough.
11:25:33 <TGYoshi> Just need to force them going into one direction, especially at depots
11:26:47 <xiong> Note that trains will avoid passing even a standard path signal from the back; so you don't usually need to do this. But sometimes, a train thinks it's better to go the wrong way than to wait to go the right way.
11:27:42 <TGYoshi> They especially like to think to go to the other way at depots :P
11:27:52 <xiong> That's really all there is to it, sort of. I spent a lot of time with complicated signaling schemes before I just started to throw down standard path every 2 tiles.
11:28:27 <xiong> Sure, trains tend to block what's behind them that way. But then, they do anyway.
11:29:14 <TGYoshi> So the 6th of the gui is the one-way thing
11:29:38 <TGYoshi> and I need to turn the lights of the signal so the train can see them - then they CAN pass?
11:29:47 <xiong> Hm. While we're on the topic, sort of: I've also abandoned complex junctions. I just run the tracks criss-cross and connect them with 1-tile diagonal bits. It's crude but effective and works fine with path signals.
11:29:57 <xiong> Correct on both counts.
11:30:35 <TGYoshi> the train is stuck now xD
11:30:51 <xiong> Oh, one point about that: When you run a main line, leave a one-tile gap between tracks.
11:30:56 <TGYoshi> need to inverse a sign :P
11:30:58 <xiong> Don't run them adjacent.
11:31:31 <xiong> Um, the payoff is large but it comes in small pieces, here and there. You'll be glad you did.
11:31:47 <xiong> Don't be tempted to save a tile.
11:32:22 <TGYoshi> There is pretty less you can put into there?
11:32:33 <TGYoshi> Uppering the ground isn't possible or so
11:32:43 <xiong> When you look on wiki, you will see many styles of junction, almost all of which have adjacent mains. I don't use these anymore.
11:32:58 <xiong> You don't put anything into the gap; you leave it blank.
11:33:57 <TGYoshi> mr train is running smoothly now :D
11:36:14 <TGYoshi> Nice idea of inversing a train too :P
11:36:21 <xiong> You see the cheap junction near the center. The main line runs from NE to SW. There's a station to the SE and another, out of sight, to the NW.
11:37:00 <xiong> The cheap junction works because of the one-tile gap. The little reversing section on the way to the NW station needs the gap to work.
11:37:11 <xiong> Also, the gap helps when building stations.
11:37:36 <xiong> You want to disable "90 degree" turns. They're bad.
11:37:56 <TGYoshi> The gap also seems useful at the SW side
11:38:00 <xiong> So, the little reversing bit you see there is the tightest possible.
11:38:06 <TGYoshi> That junction has to have one :P
11:38:26 <xiong> It is indeed. When you tunnel under one track to bring the other to the same side, the gap helps.
11:39:11 <james_o-> My OpenTTD 1.1.0-beta5 client won't connect to my server of the same version; the server gives a version string of r1
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11:39:22 <xiong> Note that the cheap junction, because of the gap, also allows any approaching train to reverse down the main. That little reversing bit to the NW is not really needed; I put it there because I *expect* a lot of reversing there and want to avoid fouling the main.
11:40:33 <TGYoshi> So if a train wants to reverse it does to earlyer, not messing up the junction
11:40:52 <planetmaker> then you didn't compile 1.1.0-beta5 as the server
11:42:08 <xiong> The main line runs past town to yet another station to the NE. In a sense it's not really the main, it's just a spur.
11:42:09 <james_o-> I downloaded 1.1.0-beta5 from the website
11:42:24 <james_o-> Running configure; make again, that might help
11:42:43 <xiong> Note how I make a juncton there with a short tunnel. Quick and easy; it depends on the gap.
11:43:03 <TGYoshi> Pfff, what gaps can do :]
11:43:07 <xiong> So does my station approach, for that matter.
11:43:25 <TGYoshi> Isn't it possible too to just split the lines a bit once it's needed?
11:43:31 <TGYoshi> or does that ruin the overseight?
11:44:45 <xiong> Ruins the eyesight, at least for my old eyes.
11:45:48 <xiong> Also, I have a more or less grand scheme. You see the roads? Those are county roads; I survey them at game start, as soon as I have enough cash to build them. I don't drive on them; I put them down every 32 tiles, each way.
11:45:53 <planetmaker> uhm... you either downloaded it, or you downloaded the source... the binary versions show to my knowledge the proper version strings.
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11:46:26 <TGYoshi> And inside them putting stuff?
11:46:31 <xiong> I put small signs at each crossroads, more or less; and I put *other* signs at the halfway points, 16 tiles in, and run the mains around these.
11:46:34 <TGYoshi> Seperating the different countries
11:47:01 <xiong> Counties or townships. I set station spread to 32 and only ever have one station per county.
11:47:07 <TGYoshi> pfff, you're going complicated in a game :P
11:47:44 <james_o-> planetmaker: I remember there being a server version variable somewhere in the source, perhaps I need to change that?
11:48:13 <xiong> No, it makes planning easier. Each county may or may not have a mainline running through it; may or may not have a station; may or may not have a junction; may or may not have a main line depoting facility. No hard choices.
11:48:40 <TGYoshi> Just to make your view clear? :P
11:48:56 <xiong> I build all the main lines, all the junctions, all the stations, all the main line depoting, all the same, as much as I can.
11:49:35 <TGYoshi> Thanks for those explainations, tips and blabla :P
11:49:41 <xiong> So I don't have to figure too much out on a case-by-case basis. Instead of assembling one-tile blocks in my head, I'm assembling 32x32 tile blocks.
11:49:45 <TGYoshi> let's see how my new file will end :D
11:50:18 <TGYoshi> by the way, you have stations longer then 7?
11:50:41 <planetmaker> the question rather remains: what and how did you compile OpenTTD
11:50:43 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 13 hours, 17 minutes, and 34 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Later all :D
11:50:54 <andythenorth> "DanMack, won't you come back?"
11:51:11 <xiong> Most of my stations are of one type, TGYoshi; "Thin B". There are four platforms, 12 tiles long each.
11:51:16 <planetmaker> you downloaded the source tar ball?
11:51:59 <xiong> Long trains are better, at least for freight, since it's not so important how long it takes to load. Long trains break down less frequently than two short trains.
11:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause> feature request: replace the buttons on the station build menu for 5,6,7 with 6,8,12 [something non-linear-ish]
11:52:31 <TGYoshi> 12 tiles long stations is possible?
11:52:45 <xiong> As soon as I get decent engines and cars, I take most trains to about 11 tiles.
11:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> TGYoshi: use drag&drop for longer stations
11:52:55 <james_o-> I applied a patch that allows reverting to previous autosaves, but I don't see how it could have changed the version string
11:53:11 <TGYoshi> Can you d&d stations?
11:53:19 <xiong> 12 isn't even really that long.
11:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> TGYoshi: there's a huge button "drag&drop" in the window :p
11:53:36 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but default max. train length is 7
11:53:41 <xiong> Dunno about drag and drop. I build up my platforms pretty carefully.
11:53:44 <TGYoshi> Cool, never saw that xD
11:53:50 <planetmaker> it'd be somewhat pointless to offer larger stations by default
11:53:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: who made that? ;)
11:54:16 <xiong> Yah, there's an Advanced Setting for that: Allow long trains.
11:54:35 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the problem is, most commonly i want to make 8 tile stations
11:54:43 <TGYoshi> I did saw that setting ^^
11:54:47 <planetmaker> build 2 x length 4
11:55:02 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that ruins your rating
11:55:11 <xiong> I think the absolute *minimum* length for a platform is 6. I don't see the point of anything shorter, except in weird or temp situations.
11:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so you end up being not able to build the second half
11:55:46 <planetmaker> the resulting rating reduction *should* be the same
11:55:59 <planetmaker> but you could use drag&drop like you suggested yourself
11:56:01 <xiong> I wish ISRS, and the station GUI, would give me longer stations. I build them up a few at a time.
11:56:07 <planetmaker> then it's one build action
11:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes. but imagine you have permission to destroy 3 tree tiles
11:56:15 <xiong> I like some variety in stations.
11:56:25 <planetmaker> that's out of my imagination :-P
11:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: building an 8 tile station reduces your rating below the allowed, so you cannot build any more afterwards, but it allows you to put the whole station
11:56:55 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: building two 4 tile station reduces your rating below the allowed, so you cannot build any more after the first one, so you cannot place the second one
11:57:03 <james_o-> planetmaker: make clean; ./configure; make didn't help, I'll try downloading a clean version
11:57:04 <planetmaker> quite silly ;-) - maybe it's a bug to fail station building then in any case?
11:57:37 <TGYoshi> Cool I've got platforms of 4 :P
11:57:59 <Eddi|zuHause> after building a big station with drag&drop, you usually have not permisson to rebuild it (to build eyecandy tiles)
11:58:33 <xiong> TGYoshi, That may seem like a lot now but you can only haul about 6 regular-size cars onto such a platform, maybe only 5, not counting engine and caboose.
11:58:45 <Eddi|zuHause> at least, if this is the first station in the town, and you did some terraforming to place it
11:58:50 <planetmaker> james_o-: I don't know what you did, but for me the clean tar ball compiles just fine
11:59:15 <xiong> I also started my early games with many short platforms. I find it works much better to have just 4 fairly long ones.
12:00:29 <TGYoshi> I just keep the 4/5-sized ones for now, I see later if I can do bigger :P
12:02:13 <xiong> You'd be surprised just how many trains that can handle. But part of the point is that it needn't handle very many, since each is so long.
12:02:35 <TGYoshi> Does it get clogged up?
12:03:04 <xiong> Ah, that's the beauty part. If you run too many trains into such a station, the trains back up in the depots, not onto the main.
12:04:11 <xiong> The depots are not the bottleneck; the number of platforms is. Generally, a train will break down in the exit interlocking and stall other trains trying to depart. Then, there will be no free platforms, so trains will stay in depot.
12:04:25 <xiong> This makes use of the fact that each depot has a built-in super-signal.
12:04:55 <TGYoshi> Using depots for that purpose :P
12:05:12 <xiong> Note that there are no signals between the depots and the platforms. Also, the one-way path signal that controls entry to the depot interlocking is only one tile away from any depot.
12:06:06 <xiong> It is common, under heavy traffic, to have 3 trains at one time in the depot interlocking -- 1 entering depot and 2 exiting, or 2 and 1.
12:06:59 <TGYoshi> I need to try that setup soon :P
12:07:03 <TGYoshi> Want to see it running
12:07:04 <xiong> Usually 1 and 2 but sometimes you will see the tail end of a train just getting into one depot as another train hits the one-way.
12:08:37 <xiong> The key is the depot super-signal. According to planetmaker, this really is a super-signal; it looks around to see what kind of signal it should be. So, it can act as either a combo block or a path signal, your choice.
12:09:07 <xiong> Don't put both types of signal near a depot unless you want to spend a long time trying to figure out what the depot is thinking.
12:09:46 <TGYoshi> Those setups are a little too complicated for me, yet :]
12:10:08 <TGYoshi> Just need to try it first
12:10:14 <xiong> I mean, there it is, right in front of your eyeballs. Try it!
12:10:18 <TGYoshi> Then I can see what is really does
12:10:32 <TGYoshi> ^^, I just restarted xD
12:10:50 <xiong> Heh, I hit on this design because other stations were too hard for me to build.
12:11:33 <TGYoshi> The signal at the most NW side is an one-way thing right?
12:11:39 <xiong> If you haven't loaded ISRS, then probably it looks complicated because of all the eye candy. I can show you the same thing without.
12:12:24 <TGYoshi> Wow, you've got that stations just for a forest?
12:13:38 <xiong> That's a vanilla game, no NewGRFs at all.
12:14:01 <TGYoshi> That's how mine's going to look like :P
12:14:02 <xiong> The forest is important in FIRS. All the earlier shots were from a FIRS game.
12:14:49 <TGYoshi> Ok I'll try it out now :P
12:15:04 <TGYoshi> Soooo, the depots will turn the trains around?
12:15:06 <xiong> You sound kinda new so I don't want to push; go at your own pace, I did. But I tell you, once I loaded FIRS, ISRS, and a few other key add-ons, I never wanted to go back.
12:15:34 <TGYoshi> never heard of that stuff soo :P
12:16:10 <xiong> Well, you can't exit the back of a depot. All depots reverse. The only question is what track you put in front of one.
12:16:16 <TGYoshi> I've just got the problem that trains aren't replacing themselves x]
12:16:39 <TGYoshi> Your station looks clever O_O
12:16:40 <xiong> Note that some players consider deliberately reversing the direction of a train using a depot to be a cheap trick.
12:16:56 <xiong> You may not have enough cash.
12:17:19 <xiong> Or, your trains may not yet be old enough. Or you may have the relevant setting off.
12:18:14 <xiong> TGYoshi, This game has a ridiculous number of settings. That's before you start loading NewGRF add-ons, some of which also have "parameter" settings.
12:18:21 <james_o-> planetmaker: I ran diff on the source files of the clean version and my patched version, for some reason rev.cpp had been changed in my version
12:18:52 <xiong> By ridiculous, I mean that you want to spend hours reading over the setting possibilities. A small change makes for a completely different style of game.
12:19:12 <xiong> You will come back to Advanced Settings over and over in the first few weeks.
12:19:33 <xiong> If you play on a server with unfamiliar settings, you may be lost.
12:20:24 <TGYoshi> You built two stations at your last pic right?
12:20:29 <TGYoshi> With one line in the middle
12:20:50 <xiong> There are Game Options, Difficulty Options, Advanced Settings, the aforementioned NewGRFs, and other settings that can only be changed in the ingame console or by editing your openttd.cfg.
12:21:18 <TGYoshi> that a game can be that complicated :p
12:21:24 <xiong> Ahem ahem. I lied. I left *room* for another station.
12:22:06 <TGYoshi> Just two stations near eachother?
12:22:07 <andythenorth> safe to say, the number of settings is seen as a problem, not a feature
12:22:23 <TGYoshi> that one is fine too :P
12:22:33 <TGYoshi> Yea, why two stations?
12:22:33 <xiong> There's a stockyard in the next county to the NE; I'll build a station there.
12:23:35 <TGYoshi> There is one line in the middle seperating them
12:23:41 <xiong> See the mini-station near the factory, with the sign "Thin B Main"? That's the station.
12:23:56 <planetmaker> well, mostly they need a way to manage them to configure them quickly for different purposes
12:23:57 <xiong> There's only one rail station in that shot.
12:24:06 <planetmaker> there are only few which really can go
12:24:07 <TGYoshi> Huh, the others got no name?
12:24:18 <xiong> Right. They are all elements of the same station.
12:24:32 <TGYoshi> And they can gather stuff from both the factory and the mine?
12:24:45 * planetmaker currently moves some settings
12:24:47 <xiong> I built the little, isolated one-tile station just to hold the sign up, out of the way; and to make sure the station's catchment would include the factory.
12:25:06 <TGYoshi> How did you made those elements ? :P
12:25:32 <xiong> If you have your settings chosen correctly, it's as easy as Ctrl-clicking when you build a station element. You get a dialog.
12:25:45 <xiong> I choose quite a few settings for this. ;)
12:26:17 <TGYoshi> Ctrl clicking does something? :P
12:26:32 <TGYoshi> -- sorry, I'm eating something now, 5 minutes
12:27:38 <xiong> If you have allowed disjoint stations, etc., then you get a dialog asking if you want to build a new station or join an existing one. All the elements must lie within the "station spread", which is another setting. I advise you to ignore the dire warning, which appears to be appropriate for Commodore64.
12:28:21 <xiong> Maybe I really should write up that walkthrough.
12:30:31 <TGYoshi> I got almost all default settings xd
12:31:55 <xiong> I have changed nearly every setting there is in Advanced Settings; and changed most of them back, or again.
12:32:37 <xiong> I can't count how many wrong theories I have had in the course of learning this game. I don't know how many wrong ones I still have.
12:33:10 <TGYoshi> I don't know what all settings do D=
12:33:21 <xiong> Some of these are reinforced by the available docs, particularly the wiki. It's helpful to a point, confusing by turns, and occasionally just plain wrong.
12:33:24 <TGYoshi> is it possible to turn off that industies 'die'?
12:33:49 <xiong> TGYoshi, It is, in several ways. But that takes half the challenge out of play. ;)
12:34:01 <andythenorth> TGYoshi: there's a grf called manual industries that should do that for you
12:34:06 <TGYoshi> indeed, want to try if I like that :P
12:34:10 <andythenorth> if I recall correctly
12:34:17 <andythenorth> the FIRS set allows disabling closure
12:34:33 <TGYoshi> nobody can tell if I like it :D
12:34:33 <andythenorth> but FIRS is not currently designed for beginners :)
12:34:37 <xiong> If you load FIRS, then you will have choices to disable closure very specifically.
12:34:46 <TGYoshi> What the hell is firs xd
12:34:53 <andythenorth> I haven't made FIRS friendly to newbies yet :)
12:35:17 <xiong> andythenorth, What's up with FIRS, anyhow? Why no sugar refinery? What's going on?
12:35:27 <andythenorth> no sugar refinery??
12:35:30 <andythenorth> why no bug report...
12:35:43 <xiong> Hey, all I see is a great green block.
12:35:57 <xiong> I figured the graphic simply hadn't been drawn.
12:37:47 <TGYoshi> Ok need to download now ^^
12:37:55 <andythenorth> xiong: what FIRS version you have?
12:38:04 <xiong> TGYoshi, FIRS is exceptionally cool. So is ISRS; they go together like ham and eggs. So are a large number of vehicle sets; the defaults just plain suck.
12:38:54 <TGYoshi> Sorry, noob here, where to download? :P
12:39:23 <andythenorth> TGYoshi: find the newgrf settings window in game splash screen
12:39:30 <xiong> TGYoshi, You can download a great number of NewGRFs without ever leaving OpenTTD. See 'Check Online Content'.
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12:40:03 <andythenorth> xiong: FIRS 0.6.1is not savegame safe with 0.5.x
12:40:09 <xiong> Once you get hooked on them, you will start scavenging the back racks of old porno bookstores, looking for more.
12:40:09 <andythenorth> but is recommended in every other respect :)
12:40:52 <TGYoshi> Ok great, what do I need to download?
12:40:56 <xiong> Now you tell me, andythenorth. What do I do, throw out my beautiful new map? I just got to 1898!
12:41:31 <vb> hello? i need a little help
12:41:43 <vb> curiosity is what i'm infected with
12:41:47 <xiong> TGYoshi, There are so many NewGRFs. You must choose. Many stink. Somebody should write up a list of the good ones.
12:41:50 <andythenorth> xiong: patiene I guess
12:41:51 <vb> any info about the caboose trucks?
12:41:56 <vb> i can't find any info on wiki
12:42:23 <vb> i remember them being in openttd
12:42:32 <andythenorth> only in newgrf train sets
12:42:36 <andythenorth> not in default game
12:42:47 <xiong> Yeh, default really is lame.
12:42:50 <TGYoshi> I don't see firs into the list :P
12:43:14 <xiong> FIRS Industry Replacement Set.
12:43:20 <vb> i just started a game in 1925 with default game
12:43:35 <andythenorth> TGYoshi: do you know what OpenTTD version you have?
12:43:49 <xiong> You might be better off downloading from andythenorth's link, directly. But then you have to figure out how to install it yourself, which is not hard.
12:44:15 <xiong> Oh yeah, you gotta download and run nightly. The last "official" release is ancient.
12:44:29 <vb> what mods do you recommend for an enjoyable single player game?
12:44:38 <andythenorth> FIRS doesn't appear for 1.0.5 uses
12:44:55 <TGYoshi> Shall I update to 1.1.0-b5?
12:44:58 <andythenorth> get the 1.1.x beta
12:45:00 <xiong> vb, FIRS and ISRS to start. Unplayable without.
12:45:21 <vb> i also have a problem, the trains in my station don't collect the goods in order
12:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> TGYoshi: there's not much that speaks against it
12:45:26 <xiong> A decent train set, of course; I use NARS.
12:45:33 <vb> so like, i have 4 trains and 4 tons of coal, each of the 4 trains take 1 ton
12:45:37 <Eddi|zuHause> TGYoshi: unless you play multiplayer extensively
12:45:43 <vb> but i want the first train to take it all
12:46:36 <xiong> eGRVTS and FISH for road vehicles and ships. I also have Bob's Random British Vehicles and Generic Cars.
12:46:38 <TGYoshi> Now I'm searching for a 1.1.0-b5 download :P, openttd.org doesn't like me again :D
12:46:55 <xiong> vb, It's a setting, improved loading algorithm.
12:47:07 <andythenorth> xiong: much as I enjoy you recommending FIRS...compared to default game it has 4x number of industry types, and 3x number of cargos...
12:47:08 <andythenorth> ...so might be a bit much at first
12:47:17 <xiong> TGYoshi, Nah, go for nightly, you'll be glad you did.
12:47:23 <andythenorth> I'd recommend playing the default climates until bored before trying FIRS :)
12:48:03 <xiong> Well, dunno, andythenorth. I guess it depends on the steepness of a guy's learning curve.
12:48:12 <andythenorth> vb: UKRS, DB Set, or 2CC train set
12:48:39 <xiong> North American Renewal Set. Many of the classic engines from American railroading. Good stuff back to 1850.
12:49:03 <TGYoshi> Now isrs isn't found ^^
12:49:11 <vb> where can i set the loading algoritm?
12:49:56 <xiong> Get to know them; there's a lot of them and they all do neat stuff, except the ones that don't.
12:51:39 <xiong> TGYoshi, You really want a better train set, if nothing else. Depending on your world, old or new, NARS, UKRS, etc.
12:52:02 <planetmaker> Japanese is also quite nice. But arguably not European
12:52:09 <xiong> The default set is like the cheap plastic ready-to-roll box you get at the toy store.
12:52:35 <xiong> Hey, I loaded the Japanese Station Set. Kinky!
12:53:04 <xiong> I don't use the too-obviously J stuff but it makes a nice change from Canadian roofs.
12:53:08 <vb> yay, i kinda broke my savegame
12:53:15 <vb> default train says it needs catenary
12:53:35 <xiong> Everything breaks savegames.
12:53:45 <planetmaker> what's up, Terkhen ? :-)
12:54:08 <TGYoshi> A fatal newgfx error occured :P
12:54:13 <vb> how do i start the train if it says no power?
12:54:17 <Terkhen> the old computer I got yesterday does not boot anymore
12:55:05 <xiong> vb, There are a number of "AV8" plane sets. When I start in 1850, I eventually get Zepplins (which, apparently, cannot be run at a profit).
12:55:47 <xiong> TGYoshi, It is possible for NewGRFs to conflict with one another. You may have to make a choice.
12:55:50 <Terkhen> and given the burnt smell I'm inclined to forget about fixing it
12:56:07 <xiong> Burnt smell, not a good sign.
12:56:10 <planetmaker> it usually only happens when you mess with newgrfs on a running game. Thus you must have clicked away a red warning box that you're doing dangerous things
12:56:35 * Terkhen likes the default vehicles BTW
12:56:48 <vb> what AI works with CC2 addon?
12:57:23 <xiong> Oh yeah. Basic principle: Don't change anything in a game. Make changes, start new game. You *can* do otherwise but don't try this at home. Professional driver, closed course.
12:58:38 <xiong> Ah, New Iron Ore Mine, New Coal Mine. Strictly better-looking, oddly enough doesn't break FIRS at all.
12:59:45 <xiong> I have half a dozen passenger station sets. Still looking for one that's okay. Rural Stations is okay; Canadian Stations is my everyday.
13:00:39 <xiong> Longer Girder, Steel Bridge. There are two opposing viewpoints on bridges: They should be faster; and They should be slower. I'm in the first camp.
13:00:41 <TGYoshi> I'm going to cheat somehow :P, just need to know how :P
13:00:55 <TGYoshi> How to make sure industries will not close with firs? :D
13:01:08 <TGYoshi> Not that cheat, that's boring :P
13:01:13 <xiong> -- oh. That's how to cheat.
13:01:33 <xiong> When you are loading FIRS, set the parameters.
13:01:46 <TGYoshi> I heard about parameters indeed
13:02:00 <xiong> You have a few different choices. I like everything to close; otherwise, the map gets cluttered.
13:02:11 <xiong> Click "Set parameters".
13:02:38 <xiong> But then, I also allow to prospect :)
13:02:50 <TGYoshi> Standart they won't cloase?
13:02:53 <xiong> More of a challenge when you don't.
13:03:10 <xiong> Mm, think maybe could be. Fiddle.
13:03:26 <TGYoshi> Right now it's messing around with ttd :p
13:03:44 <TGYoshi> Economy: Test economy? :P
13:04:09 <xiong> TGYoshi, Are you seeing the advanced parameter settings dialog, with actual descriptions of what you're changing?
13:04:57 <xiong> Or is it the old funky one-line text entry area, where you have to Ouija Board in raw numbers?
13:05:18 <TGYoshi> In 1.0.5 it was a line :P
13:05:23 <xiong> Great. So, go ahead, please yourself. Some of the settings are not yet implemented.
13:05:37 <TGYoshi> They're standart off :P
13:05:43 <TGYoshi> So they won't die O_O
13:06:00 <TGYoshi> Now I have to restart the game... again xd
13:06:24 <TGYoshi> Any other newgfx things I need? :P
13:06:27 <xiong> Um, well, I'll argue the other side. I played with no-close and my map filled up with industries faster than I could even plan to connect them.
13:06:37 <andythenorth> TGYoshi: changing FIRS parameters is mostly safe in game
13:06:38 <xiong> TGYoshi, What have you got now?
13:06:55 <TGYoshi> NA railroad thing and firs :P
13:07:14 <TGYoshi> That thing doesn't like to find that
13:07:53 <xiong> Industrial Stations Renewal v0.8.0 is what I have
13:07:58 <TGYoshi> "International Stereotactic Radiosurgery Society - ISRS"
13:08:18 <Eddi|zuHause> TGYoshi: that's because any sane person abbreviates it "ISR"
13:08:34 <xiong> Oh, and I really do like New Fences. What is it?
13:09:08 <xiong> Yeh, "New fences". All track is fenced; the default fence is ugly.
13:09:46 <TGYoshi> 'New Fences' doesn't exist
13:10:02 <xiong> You probably wouldn't give beans for Sailing Ships. It's possible to start this game in 1700.
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13:10:25 <xiong> New fences. Dunno. I don't use the search box, I scroll down the list.
13:11:02 <xiong> Purno's new railway fence
13:12:00 <xiong> And of course, you probably want a town names set, unless you really want to live in Whifflepoof-by-the-Bath.
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13:13:23 <xiong> Did you load eGRVTS? You'll want those to haul FIRS cargos on roads.
13:13:35 <zydeco> my internets aren't behaving today
13:13:52 <James_> Is it ok to run multiple instances of OpenTTD from the same directory?
13:15:31 <Ammler> James_: as server? You might adjust the port then
13:15:31 <xiong> That's probably plenty, TGYoshi. You'll develop needs as you go along; then you'll chuck the running game, go get more stuff, and start over.
13:16:06 <TGYoshi> Let's start a game now ^^
13:16:32 <TGYoshi> I see a village on a very small island XD
13:17:02 <andythenorth> get a ship set :)
13:18:19 <TGYoshi> Cool stuff @ station list :D
13:18:22 <Ammler> don't play with less than 50 newgrfs
13:20:25 <xiong> Oh wow, I shoudl have been alseep 30 typos ago. Time for beddy with teddy. Night all.
13:23:30 <James_> Ammler: I was thinking of the autosave files - I changed the autosaver to prepend the name of the config file to the autosave file
13:25:16 <Ammler> we run every server in its own working dir
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13:26:02 <TGYoshi> great system with the depot at the station xD
13:26:21 <TGYoshi> Now I just want to know how to assign another element at a station
13:27:05 <James_> Does OpenTTD take the working directory to be the one containing the config file, or the one that the binary was launched from?
13:27:36 <Ammler> the place where you start openttd
13:28:16 <Zuu> which happen to be the standard behaviour in most if not all operating systems.
13:28:18 <Ammler> that is generic system behavior, nothing to do with openttd
13:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> in windows you can set the working directory in the .lnk
13:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause> default is the location of openttd.exe
13:31:46 <Ammler> we usually have the openttd.cfg in the working dir
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13:41:44 <vb> how do i turn on semaphores in the early game?
13:45:17 <vb> go backseat moderate somewhere else
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13:46:16 <fjb> How stupid can anybody be?
13:46:24 <Wolf01> vb, that video is not related at all with the channel -> spam
13:46:29 <planetmaker> it's not like the youtube link is motivated by any conversation before or after
13:46:56 <planetmaker> we don't like spam
13:47:07 <vb> how do i turn on semaphores in the early game?
13:47:56 <Wolf01> they are called light signals, and you can set the year of their introduction in adv. settings as planetmaker told, or you can use ctrl to place them instead of semaphores
13:48:08 <vb> there are hundreds of settings
13:48:31 <planetmaker> probably in economy...
13:49:24 <Wolf01> or use the signals gui and select them
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13:59:26 <planetmaker> _settings_client.gui.show_town_names = !_settings_client.gui.show_town_names; <-- there's certainly a shorter way for this...
14:00:26 <glx> but some platforms had problems with that IIRC
14:00:42 <planetmaker> I think we solved that
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14:05:46 <zydeco> but ^= true can be less readable
14:06:58 <Ammler> doesn't look "shorter" either :-)
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14:08:53 <glx> zydeco: it's a typical toggle
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15:06:40 <andythenorth> the FISH log raft gets bigger as it loads
15:07:02 <andythenorth> this leads to a not-ideal jumping effect in the graphics
15:07:09 <andythenorth> the towboat jumps forward
15:07:37 <andythenorth> I can't think of a solution. Ideas?
15:07:43 <planetmaker> add empty sprites
15:08:08 <planetmaker> and compression bit set appropriately (no crop)
15:10:50 <planetmaker> the 3rd byte of the real sprites
15:11:38 <planetmaker> like 3rd byte set to 0x41 or 0x43 instead of 03
15:12:27 <andythenorth> I think I mis-explained :)
15:13:47 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I say: Use in all loading stages the sprites of the same size as the fully loaded one
15:14:16 <planetmaker> thus for no load you'll have HUGE but mostly transparent ship
15:14:22 <planetmaker> but when it then loads - it won't jump
15:14:26 <andythenorth> it means it will turn funny :)
15:14:38 <andythenorth> the pivot point will be way behind the tug when empty
15:14:54 <andythenorth> I thought of animated frames to move the tug when loading / unloading
15:19:23 <Alberth> shunting ship wagons :p
15:20:40 <andythenorth> articulated ships
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15:26:20 <Eddi|zuHause> [Samstag, 18. Dezember 2010] [15:21:07] * Eddi|zuHause waits for the time andythenorth requests ship-wagons :p
15:26:35 <andythenorth> it's happened before ;0
15:27:12 <Ammler> needs crash detection first :-)
15:27:27 <andythenorth> ship-wagons is not same as articulated ships
15:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: how is that related?
15:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but tugboat/float is
15:28:04 <andythenorth> not what I asked for :)
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15:51:41 <Rubidium> heffer: it's fixed in r21605 / a duplicate of FS#4324
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15:59:11 <Rubidium> heffer: I doubt there'll be a 1.0.6 though, so if you want to fix it in Fedora you should just use r21605
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16:18:46 <heffer> Rubidium: okay thankd :)
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16:29:58 <dihedral> it's a 2 year old thread!
16:30:47 <Alberth> click the "!" button?
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16:42:59 <dihedral> spam? inappropriate?
16:43:25 <dihedral> it's not in the list :-P
16:44:29 <dihedral> you almost only get to report as "other" - would not be bad if that list was extended a little
16:44:40 <andythenorth> yeah, but will the tip stop my trains refusing to service?
16:49:39 <dihedral> andythenorth, it's not even about that version
16:52:40 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: i mostly reported things as "off-topic" [usually in the sense of "wrong subforum"]
16:54:36 <Terkhen> dihedral: ^ he's the one you were waiting for
16:55:48 <dihedral> Terkhen, i was wondering :-)
16:58:06 * planetmaker assumes testing chores :-P
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17:34:49 <Alberth> dihedral: the same arguments you present here imho
17:35:33 <Alberth> ie what is the difference between asking here, and asking in a pm?
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18:03:45 <Alberth> andythenorth: does Foobar do Dutch FIRS translation currently, or should I create a few sentences?
18:03:58 <planetmaker> Alberth: go for it
18:04:09 <planetmaker> the last one was from Y3xo, I think
18:04:46 <planetmaker> FB is around far too seldom :S
18:05:58 <andythenorth> Terkhen: any spanish translation update? :)
18:06:07 <andythenorth> it would be nice to get translations into 0.6.2
18:07:34 <Alberth> can I borrow the check script from somewhere? :)
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18:07:57 <planetmaker> scripts/check_language.sh
18:08:45 <planetmaker> you need to supply a part of the intended filename. like "utch" ;-)
18:09:39 <TGYoshi> how to convert a car to something else?
18:10:14 <TGYoshi> I want a box-wagon to a scrap thing
18:11:14 <Alberth> click the double box button in the train window for refitting
18:12:30 <TGYoshi> I cloned the train -.-
18:14:56 <Terkhen> wow, lots of missing strings, it will take a while :)
18:16:52 <Regiovogel> any dev around who'd like to talk a bit about acceleration? :)
18:17:42 <Terkhen> @get @get #openttd -3
18:17:42 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Error: '@get' is not a valid topic number.
18:17:56 <Terkhen> Regiovogel: ask your question directly
18:18:26 <Regiovogel> i'll try to do so... it's about articulated vehicles
18:18:30 <TGYoshi> SmatZ: invailed certificate :D
18:18:40 <SmatZ> TGYoshi: it's self0signed
18:18:43 <Ammler> could you dublicate it?
18:18:49 <SmatZ> Ammler: no problem, I like that idea :)
18:19:41 <Regiovogel> for articulated vehicles, only the first part can have some weight, for the following articulated parts it is always zero, right?
18:19:51 <Ammler> is that MG 2006TTD from DevZone?
18:20:02 <Terkhen> but the cargo weight is taken into account
18:20:31 <Regiovogel> yes, of course, my question was about the empty weight, sorry.
18:20:49 <Ammler> I have to admit, I didn't even try to search for a ticket :'-(
18:21:25 <Regiovogel> does this also mean that articulated parts don't add resistance on slopes (when empty)?
18:26:21 <Regiovogel> hmh... okay, just tested this with HEQS
18:27:48 <Regiovogel> only the first vehicle does count for this... so, if the first part of a tram leaves the slope, the tram will accelerate to its normal speed
18:28:19 <Regiovogel> looks a bit... strange ;)
18:28:39 <Terkhen> IIRC this was specified on the NewGRF specs for articulated vehicles
18:28:48 <Terkhen> I also think it is strange, yes
18:28:49 <Regiovogel> is it likely that there will be a change at some time?
18:28:56 <Regiovogel> yes, it's in the specs
18:29:57 <Terkhen> I would welcome that change, but I don't know if it would break existing sets or have any other nasty side effects (besides andy getting annoyed because he would have to tweak HEQS again)
18:30:23 <Regiovogel> the action0 description says that weight for articulated parts "should be zero"
18:30:40 <Terkhen> but as usual it does not explain why, right? :)
18:31:08 <Terkhen> there was some discussion about this issue at the improved acceleration for road vehicles thread in the forums
18:31:11 <Regiovogel> if it does, i haven't found the explanation yet ;)
18:31:19 <Terkhen> you might want to check it out, I don't really remember it
18:33:46 <planetmaker> [19:27] <Regiovogel> only the first vehicle does count for this... so, if the first part of a tram leaves the slope, the tram will accelerate to its normal speed <-- but it would do that in reality even - there's less 'effective' weight to pull
18:33:47 <Regiovogel> well, speaking of HEQS, yes, the trams need some tweaking... andy knows why :)
18:34:45 <Terkhen> hmm... I wonder if the acceleration code currently ignores articulated parts completely or if it adds 0 as their weight
18:35:02 <Terkhen> if the former is true then changing this would have a huge performance impact in games with a lot of articulated vehicles
18:35:20 <Regiovogel> planetmaker: but the wagons also have some weight, so there should be at least any effect on acceleration...
18:35:50 <planetmaker> true. But honestly, given the scale of this game it IMHO matters not
18:37:28 <Regiovogel> might be a point, yes...
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18:37:54 <planetmaker> unless you have a 5-tile tram like in HEQS :-P
18:39:42 <Regiovogel> i was thinking of e. g. building an eight-car-trainset as articulated vehicle (something like ICE3)...
18:40:59 <Regiovogel> there would only be a small impact of the "cargo" weight, so basically the complete weight of the consist would be on the first part?
18:43:17 <Regiovogel> adding weight for powered wagons shouldn't work in this case, because var 23 "should be zero" (there it is again) for articulated parts
18:45:27 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I wouldn't object to changing HEQS (again)
18:45:39 <andythenorth> but I'd be wondering about rv-wagons
18:45:50 <andythenorth> HEQS is only articulated because it has to be
18:46:05 <andythenorth> rv-wagons would suggest taking weight into account correctly?
18:46:38 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I finally got a computer for profiling, but I still had no time to set it up (and to test if I still get funny results)
18:46:47 <Terkhen> and IIRC weight is taken into account for wagons already
18:47:05 <Terkhen> so if HEQS trams were converted for using wagons they would not suffer from this issue anymore
18:47:14 <andythenorth> that was my thinking
18:47:26 <andythenorth> i.e. rv-wagons might disappear the issue for most of HEQS
18:47:34 <andythenorth> other RV sets might still have articulated vehicles :P
18:47:37 <Terkhen> but other examples of articulated vehicles (such as the one Regiovogel mentioned) would still exist
18:47:41 <andythenorth> I don't really care right now :D
18:48:07 <andythenorth> there seems to be a lot of futzing with acceleration models :D
18:48:20 <andythenorth> but there are bigger fish to fry I reckon
18:48:34 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I think so, in mostly all HEQS vehicles that would remain articulated, the weight of the empty articulated parts would be negligible in comparison with the first part
18:51:35 <Regiovogel> may i ask what exactly you are talking about? would rv-wagons mean a concept similar to trains?
18:51:50 <Terkhen> Regiovogel: yes, wagons for road vehicles
18:52:18 <Terkhen> andythenorth: the translation is done, as soon as I set up ssh in this computer I'll push it
18:53:54 <Regiovogel> Terkhen: wasn't able to find something useful on the forums regarding weight for articulated parts... but it might of course happen that "adding" this would break existing newgrfs
18:55:02 <Terkhen> somewhere in that thread we talk about the issue
18:55:15 <Terkhen> originally the rv acceleration patch took into account weight for articulated parts
18:55:40 <Regiovogel> hm, i browsed that thread. have to re-read it a bit more carefully. thanks
18:59:36 <andythenorth> Terkhen: if rv-wagons existed, then for the greater number of articulated RVs, weight of trailing parts would not be a big issue
18:59:46 <andythenorth> just put it on the lead part, and don't worry about it
19:00:06 <andythenorth> for an out-and-back journey on the same route, it should average to be correct?
19:00:47 <andythenorth> depends on number of vehicles and length of slope, but in many cases it would average out
19:01:05 <Terkhen> or be close enough to not matter
19:01:15 <andythenorth> weight would be too high when first starting up slope, and weight would come off slope too soon
19:01:27 <andythenorth> for longer vehicles it wouldn't be the case so much
19:04:41 <andythenorth> Alberth: you want commit rights?
19:05:00 <Regiovogel> is there any information about rv-wagons available? sounds interesting
19:05:03 <andythenorth> so no I have to apply your patch :| :D
19:05:13 <andythenorth> Regiovogel: yesish...mostly no
19:05:40 <Alberth> build a WT for newgrfs :p
19:05:46 <andythenorth> Regiovogel: information item 1....it's not done
19:06:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: I considered it :P
19:06:05 <Regiovogel> ok, was just wondering ;)
19:06:08 <Terkhen> Regiovogel: a spec stub which I can't find right now and some irc logs
19:06:20 <andythenorth> and a repo at the devzone
19:06:32 <Terkhen> there have been changes in that direction already in trunk (mostly unification of road vehicle and train code)
19:06:39 <Alberth> it would be beneficial for many grfs, I think
19:06:42 <Terkhen> but besides that it is just a starting project
19:08:12 <planetmaker> Alberth: quite so. But the big question is "how"?
19:08:53 <planetmaker> It would need some new newgrf specs... a rework of action13 or so
19:08:54 <andythenorth> Alberth: that patch built so I've committed it :)
19:09:16 <Alberth> ok, now the changed texts :)
19:09:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: just get make to curl from a url
19:09:29 <andythenorth> and then we all cry when web access is down :(
19:09:42 <andythenorth> stick it in a CMS
19:09:49 <andythenorth> have the CMS use the repo
19:09:51 <Alberth> some java program run locally?
19:09:59 <planetmaker> well. I imagine it rather like "update translations" button in the newgrf gui. Which then pulls addon-stuff
19:10:25 <planetmaker> similar to like grfs and other add-ons
19:10:44 <andythenorth> repo -> defines into CMS -> translation interface -> translations into CMS -> make pulls from CMS
19:11:13 <andythenorth> or CMS commits back to repo
19:11:21 <andythenorth> I don't know how 'trust' is done for web translations
19:11:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the idea would be to add it to like the existing WT
19:11:53 <andythenorth> I haven't looked at that at all :)
19:11:58 <andythenorth> back to the code for me :)
19:12:01 <planetmaker> but the biggest problem would be how to a) get the strings from the newgrfs and uniquely identify them
19:12:13 <dihedral> can the existing WT not be extended to also handle newgrf's?
19:12:15 <planetmaker> b) avoid double work for each version uploaded. Thus to match strings accross versions
19:12:36 <Alberth> I was thinking a much more local concept, running at a user his own machine
19:12:36 <dihedral> iirc TrueBrain did have in mind to allow multiple projects be handled
19:12:45 <planetmaker> c) how to get those strings to the user and how to handle it. Grfs need to match md5, esp. in MP
19:13:40 * TrueBrain awakes from hybernations, reads, realises planetmaker and Yexo have those answers, and retreats back in his cave
19:14:09 <planetmaker> need a stick with some fire? :-P
19:15:11 <TrueBrain> I already have a stick
19:15:15 <TrueBrain> trying to find some ore now
19:15:22 <TrueBrain> (/me loves references :p)
19:15:24 <planetmaker> ah, right. Happy digging ;-)
19:17:49 * andythenorth there is a sprite sheet here
19:17:54 * andythenorth pick up sprite sheet
19:18:03 * andythenorth the sprite sheet is empty
19:18:17 * andythenorth fill sprite sheet
19:20:19 * andythenorth hoped arithmetic had changed recently :(
19:22:14 <Alberth> maybe it changed back just before you tested
19:26:22 <dihedral> andythenorth, that is quite sad that you needed DorpsGek for that calculation :-D
19:27:00 * andythenorth has one of those boring 'both solutions are wrong' problems
19:27:11 <andythenorth> in fact all three solutions are wrong
19:27:30 <andythenorth> I need a three dimensional sprite sheet, and I only get two dimensions
19:29:02 * andythenorth does something else
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19:31:28 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22071 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Fix (r20075): some hotkey names in hotkey.cfg for the scenario editor toolbar were completely bogus
19:35:30 * andythenorth figures that a third dimension is using separate files
19:35:38 <andythenorth> and that nobody else has a clue what he is doing
19:43:01 <Regiovogel> Terkhen: in the thread about your improved acceleration, you wrote "It is more complicated than it seems, as there would be some problems with tractive effort." (about weight for articulated parts)... am i right to assume it's about powered/unpowered articulated parts?
19:43:44 <Terkhen> probably, back then I did not really understand the difference between articulated parts and wagons
19:45:02 <dihedral> having a highlight on java is not too good when sitting in the ##java channel :-P
19:45:19 <Regiovogel> e. g. for andys trams, only the weight of the first vehicle should be taken into account for TE calculation; but in some modern 5-part-tram the weight of all parts should be considered...
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19:48:30 * Rubidium offers dihedral a cup of java
19:48:40 * Regiovogel isn't too good in writing english texts...
19:48:45 * andythenorth looks at sugar cane trams in java
19:49:09 <dihedral> i'd rather have a cup of pg tips :-P
19:49:29 <Regiovogel> speaking of trains, i'd say that the biggest difference would be that a vehicle built of articulated parts is a fixed consist, while wagons can be moved out of them (more or less) easily
19:50:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22072 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r21966): flipping wasn't (correctly) disabled in some cases
19:54:44 <Regiovogel> the best solution for allowing weight for articulated parts would surely be to let the newgrf tell if it wants to use that function... for correct TE calculation, the articulated parts would have to be marked as powered
19:59:34 <Regiovogel> is there an easy way to check if articulated parts have weight set only by analyzing the newgrf? or would it be necessary to build all articulated vehicles of a newgrf and show the information somewhere?
20:04:50 <Alberth> look for the 'weight' vehicle setting in the NFO code?
20:05:50 <Alberth> you can probably fool the analysis with jumping around
20:06:28 <Regiovogel> the nfo code gives me the weight property, but it doesn't say if it's used as articulated part :)
20:07:50 <Regiovogel> would be interesting to know what the usual way of coding articulated vehicles is
20:08:51 <Regiovogel> if the articulated parts use another vehicle ID, the weight could of course be 0
20:09:21 <asilv> i don't know what the usual way is, but i have used same id for both front and the other parts
20:09:40 <Regiovogel> but if all parts use the same vehicle ID, they all would get the same weight if the behaviour would be changed
20:10:43 <asilv> yes, and to be honest i don't relly see need to change it, the effect is not usually noticeable
20:11:09 <Regiovogel> in some test grfs i wrote i also used the same ID
20:12:17 <Regiovogel> andys trams e. g. use other IDs for the wagons, but in this case i think it makes sense
20:13:19 <Alberth> any current newgrfs would be incorrect if they use anything else than 0 in the articulated, wouldn't they?
20:14:28 <asilv> weight for articulated parts is currently ignored so most newgrf authors propably haven't paid much attention to it
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20:15:54 <Regiovogel> when weight for articulated parts would be taken into account, yes, they would be
20:17:39 <Regiovogel> it would have to be enabled by the newgrf author to not break existing sets...
20:22:36 <Regiovogel> oh, and i think i might have found a "bug" today...
20:23:04 <Regiovogel> was just testing some modifications to the gui
20:24:21 <Regiovogel> when changing the freight multiplier ingame, vehicle weight is not recalculated
20:24:37 <Alberth> Terkhen: no way to get rid of false positives in the check_language script other than by changing the line?
20:27:34 <Regiovogel> should i open a task on flyspray for that or will it be closed as "won't fix" because that is not supposed behaviour by users?
20:31:08 <Yexo> the setting cannot be changed in a multiplayer game, so it can't cause any desync issues
20:31:17 <planetmaker> interesting patch, Alberth :-)
20:31:22 <Yexo> so I'd expect it to take effect immediatly
20:32:19 <Alberth> planetmaker: yeah, but no way to say "I checked the strings, and they are fine"
20:32:40 <planetmaker> yeah, it needs something like "this is ok"...
20:33:27 <Alberth> Regiovogel: in my view, vehicles should be recalculated (whatever that means)
20:35:05 <Regiovogel> well, technically it would mean calling CargoChanged() for every GroundVehicle...
20:35:36 <Yexo> no, calling Train::MarkDirty() for every train instead
20:37:08 <Regiovogel> RoadVehicles obviously don't use the cargo factor, do they? overlooked that...
20:37:20 <Yexo> indeed, it's only for trains
20:37:31 <Alberth> just a matter of time :)
20:37:36 <Terkhen> Alberth: I did not find any good way of avoiding those false positives
20:41:25 <Regiovogel> so, am i supposed to open a ticket? i'm used to do this from work... (but then i'm opening those tickets solve them myself...)
20:41:40 <Yexo> no need, I'll commit a fix quite soon
20:42:00 <Alberth> basically check that the 7F variant text did not get changed after the translation got changed I guess, but that is not so trivial
20:42:26 <Terkhen> Regiovogel: it sounds like it should be recalculated, yes
20:42:51 <Terkhen> Alberth: but for that you need some "smart" way to store and compare the changes
20:43:09 <Regiovogel> Yexo: ok, thanks :)
20:44:44 <Regiovogel> i'm currently thinking of some kind of acceleration graph
20:44:48 <Alberth> Terkhen: yep, that's why it is not so trivial :) It sounds too complicated for your general newgrf tbh
20:45:23 <Rubidium> can't you use mercurial + blame + some magic; you'd extract the last time the string was changed from the blame
20:45:32 <planetmaker> Alberth: Terkhen maybe we could add a file (local only) which stores the strings and the revisions
20:45:34 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22073 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp table/settings.h): -Fix: immediately update the train weight when you change the multiplier for train cargo weight
20:45:47 <Yexo> Regiovogel: thanks for spotting that bug
20:45:49 <planetmaker> it would then only work for those which have a repo... but well
20:45:59 <Terkhen> Rubidium: that's what it currently does, it checks the blame revision to know when it was changed
20:46:08 <Terkhen> but you get false positives when a string is moved to other part of the file
20:46:34 <Rubidium> so do it recursively till the string actually changed?
20:46:41 <Regiovogel> Yexo: you're welcome :)
20:47:05 <Alberth> Rubidium: that would be the solution I think
20:47:34 <Terkhen> yes, that sounds good :)
20:47:37 <Alberth> but that is mostly beyond a simple shell script :)
20:48:24 <Regiovogel> by the way, to all devs... thank you for your work on this great game
20:49:24 <Alberth> aside from the question whether a translator for a grf should need the history of the project (if it exists in the first place :p )
20:51:06 <Terkhen> Regiovogel: you are welcome :)
20:51:27 <planetmaker> we do it also for our joy :-)
20:51:59 <planetmaker> and nice that there are others who find it useful :-)
20:52:42 <Regiovogel> has anybody thought of something like an acceleration graph by now?
20:52:49 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22074 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp table/settings.h): -Cleanup (r22073): there was already a setting-callback that did what is needed
20:53:07 <planetmaker> there are some in the threads which discuss that... *somewhere*
20:53:48 <Terkhen> hmmm... I remember seeing a graph like that at one of the recent acceleration threads
20:53:57 <Rubidium> Regiovogel: I think people will go insane with such a graph... what, it takes days to accelerate to top speed? ;)
20:54:54 <Regiovogel> Terkhen: i think that these graphs were created with some other tool with values that ottd generated...
20:55:09 <Terkhen> yes, they were not generated by OpenTTD
20:55:44 <Regiovogel> don't know how hard it would be to use the graphs we currently have for this...
20:56:03 <Terkhen> Regiovogel: I have a stalled patch for displaying the payment of delivering cargo at a certain speed
20:56:12 <Regiovogel> it's all more about money in them
20:56:13 <Terkhen> the code for selecting a vehicle works, you might want to look at it
20:56:23 <Regiovogel> ah, that sounds cool
20:57:17 <Rubidium> heffer: why did you take a grfcodec nightly to get png support instead of say 5.0.0?
20:57:46 <Regiovogel> i'd think of having at least two lines in this graph, one for an empty and one for a loaded consist
20:57:54 <heffer> Rubidium: because i was using a nightly already and so i figured it'd be okay to do so again :D
20:57:56 <Regiovogel> (fully loaded, that is)
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20:58:35 <heffer> Rubidium: is there any seriously wrong with it?
20:59:16 <Rubidium> probably not, it's just odd to take a nightly if it's not needed
20:59:17 <planetmaker> it works nicely on the newgrf compile "farm"
20:59:26 <heffer> Rubidium: yeah you're probably right
20:59:51 <heffer> i'll take the next stable version as soon as it comes out
21:00:49 <Regiovogel> regarding slopes for the acceleration graph would be a bit harder i think, because every vehicle has its specific resistance for moving on slopes... well, it could be averaged, but over what? average over length, average over number of vehicles...?
21:01:30 <heffer> i'll be updating opengfx as soon als the new grfcodec hits the repos
21:04:02 <Regiovogel> could also be of interest for buying new vehicles. in the graph window, you could enter the train weight, and when selecting another engine in the buy menu the graph could be recalculated...
21:05:39 <Regiovogel> is it actually possible to access the vehicle acceleration code from a graph?
21:08:31 <Terkhen> you would need to create a vehicle for that
21:08:31 <Regiovogel> but on the other hand i don't think this is the right way to go, because it is thought to be called when you actually want to accelerate the vehicle...
21:10:27 <Regiovogel> you mean to call the graph from the buy menu?
21:11:51 <Terkhen> I mean that the acceleration code is prepared to work with vehicles, not with values (they are class functions of GroundVehicle)
21:12:46 <Regiovogel> yes, that's clear to me... so for calculating the graph for an existing train i would also have to create a new vehicle?
21:13:26 <Terkhen> yes, because the acceleration code works with the internal values of the vehicle and modifies them
21:13:35 <Terkhen> so either you create a clone or you backup everything
21:15:29 <Regiovogel> is it actually possible to do these calculations for vehicles that are in a depot?
21:16:35 <wargh> I'm trying to use the autoreplace feature. I choose a train in the left column and one in the right and press start replacing. But not a single train gets replaced. What am I doing wrong?
21:18:19 <Terkhen> Regiovogel: IIRC you will get always zero because the stop flag is on
21:18:20 <wargh> Autoreplace and autorenew are the only things in the game I can't get to work.
21:19:49 <Regiovogel> i'll play around with the functions a bit...
21:20:14 <TGYoshi> Is there a tutorial about setting up a dedicated server?
21:20:26 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: stop requesting bad features all the time :-P
21:20:27 <TGYoshi> Including some standard setting changes
21:21:11 <TGYoshi> And what are the requirements of the server pc to run a 12-player one smoothly? :P
21:21:55 <Regiovogel> oh, an acceleration graph has also been suggested in 2004, wow :D
21:21:56 <Rubidium> wargh: probably the depots are too far from the routes to be "found" automatically
21:22:01 <Ammler> you stole use the pbs workaround for terminus stations and now you made engines unuseable at the end of the trains (FS#4462)
21:22:08 <Alberth> oh, 12 players at 64x64 runs smooth everywhere :)
21:22:34 <TGYoshi> 256x256 map, 12 players
21:23:38 <Rubidium> TGYoshi: it depends mostly on the kind of network and such that gets eventually built
21:23:41 <wargh> Rubidium: I have one at each platform. And the routes for the few old trains are short.
21:23:54 <Alberth> there are some wiki pages about setting up a server afaik, no idea what's on them, I never bothered to look
21:24:07 <Rubidium> wargh: then you'd need to provide a savegame
21:24:46 <TGYoshi> Monorail is heavyer then simple rail?
21:24:50 <Alberth> TGYoshi: but we already have plenty of servers, we need moderated ones
21:25:06 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: the sad thing is, we need years for getting our FRs to trunk, you need some days ;-)
21:25:07 <TGYoshi> Huh, don't get that one too :P
21:25:10 <Alberth> TGYoshi: mostly number of trains, amount of cargo
21:25:13 <Rubidium> for the server it doesn't matter much whether you have 1 or 64 clients
21:25:35 <TGYoshi> Yea I've got a great 1mb/s upload speed ^^, too low?
21:25:36 <Rubidium> I could even quote you an unpublished paper on that ;)
21:26:15 <Rubidium> as handling a client is basically no work; the game state handling takes much more effort
21:26:36 <TGYoshi> Yea, I play and host on the same machine..
21:26:42 <glx> server requirements are exactly the same as client
21:26:44 <TGYoshi> However, got no problems running two clients
21:26:49 <Alberth> TGYoshi: look at the server page, and look at the total number clients. the former is often bigger than the latter. In other words, we don't need more servers, we need someone that actively moderates the games being played there
21:27:19 <TGYoshi> poor you, there will be another server ^^
21:27:25 <TGYoshi> I want to host to play with some friends
21:27:31 <TGYoshi> And maybe public after that
21:27:33 <glx> and if you have a multicore CPU you can easily run client and server on the same machine
21:28:05 <TGYoshi> It's not heavy for my pc at all
21:28:17 <ABCRic> glx: isn't client heavier than dedicated server because of the graphics?
21:28:42 <glx> graphics is not the cpu eater :)
21:29:00 <ABCRic> still, it is something :P
21:29:01 <Alberth> ABCRic: and the server has to sort out all the network
21:29:16 <TGYoshi> Yea, but is 1 mb/s upload speed acceptable?
21:30:16 <ABCRic> my game gets noticeably slower when I have a lot of vehicle windows open
21:30:46 <TGYoshi> my game never gets slow x]
21:31:56 <glx> Alberth: without buoys ;)
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21:38:57 <wargh> Rubidium: Autoreplace started working finally. But it took ages and the trains passed the depots a lot of times. Does the game wait with replacing until the service interval kicks in or something?
21:40:30 <Rubidium> if the vehicles are normally serviced regularly, yes
21:41:43 <xiong> wargh, Try, in the vehicles list, Send for maintenance. They'll all go at once.
21:43:31 <xiong> I'll tell you what I want: Manual renew, er, autoreplacerenew, er...
21:44:13 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22075 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#4501]: newgrfs with invalid multi-tile houses could cause a valid 1x1 house following it to be seen as multi-tile, causing crashes
21:44:36 <wargh> xiong: That worked perfectly. Thanks
21:45:02 <xiong> That is, NARS contains different models for different years of the same engine; and these are significant. A wood-burning, 1849 American is not the same as a Heavy2 American, not by a long shot. But I can't autoreplace one with the other.
21:46:20 <xiong> I can't autoreplace the same engine with the same engine; and the game sees both engines as the same, even though the old engine still has the old stats and capabilities. This happens with passenger cars, too.
21:48:21 <xiong> So, to upgrade from, say, a wood-burning American to a Heavy, I autoreplace to a Mogul, perhaps, and then back to American. This is not a terrible waste of cash since the brand-new Moguls sell for nearly what I paid for them. But it's messy, especially because whatever engine I swap in, is usually slower, less powerful, or less reliable than what I'm using... which is why I'm using whatever I'm using.
21:48:27 <wargh> I thought the trains would try and replace asap when I issued the order. Lesson learnt. But the Autorenew is still not working for me. It's set to on, -12 months and I have the funds. I have no breakdowns on but I have set the "Disable servicing when breakdowns are set to none" Off.
21:48:55 <xiong> wargh, Interval servicing is tricky. Where are your depots?
21:50:22 <wargh> In front might be a better word
21:50:50 <wargh> Trains pass them just before they enter platforms
21:50:52 <xiong> Okay. But I'm going to bet you're not forcing the depoting; it's permissive. So, you're relying on maint interval setting. What's the interval?
21:52:26 <wargh> No I'm not. I don't like the disruption in flow. So I set it to 800 days since they can't breakdown anyway. I know that this is a long time but eventually they should get renewed. But I've played for 25 years and the trains just kept getting older and older past their maximum age.
21:53:11 <wargh> That's why I tried autoreplace instead
21:54:35 <xiong> wargh, Dunno but I'll bet that if you check out an individual train, you'll see that it's not much more than 28 years old.
21:55:24 <xiong> To depot and autorenew, the train will have to reach the end of its life, then in the worst case, the end of its service interval. Then, it needs to find a depot *when* you have the cash.
21:56:47 <xiong> 800 days is about 2-1/2 years. And if you switch on timetabling, you may find that your trains are taking as long as a year to make a round trip -- even more on big maps.
21:56:49 <wargh> I probably should have given it a little more time since I set the interval so high. Even if I set it to renew 12 months before it got old. The cash was never a problem.
21:57:19 <xiong> Cash is usually not a problem ingame. Now, if I could just get openttd to pay my rent.
21:57:27 <wargh> I don't have any routes that take even near a year. :)
21:57:48 <wargh> That would be something.
21:58:15 <xiong> Well. These are the causes I've found. If you disable servicing with no breakdowns, there will be no interval depoting and no autorenew/autoreplace.
21:58:53 <xiong> If you have insufficient funds, no a/a. If the trains simply haven't come up to the end of their life *and* end of their interval, no a/a.
21:59:06 <xiong> And if the train cannot find a depot, no a/a.
21:59:41 <xiong> Remember, just because you can find a depot doesn't mean the YAPF train can find a depot. Sounds like that might not be an issue on your layout.
22:00:22 <xiong> Oh, and if you have *any* goto-depot order, anywhere in the order list, that train will never interval service.
22:00:43 * xiong thinks no breakdowns = no fun
22:00:59 <wargh> It shouldn't be as I thoguht of it before starting a new game with these settings. I don't use that kind of order. Probably I just didn't wait long enough
22:01:17 <xiong> Certainly, no breakdowns make it tougher to see when your trains aren't servicing regularly.
22:01:23 <wargh> I don't think I have used breakdowns since I played the original TTD
22:01:58 <wargh> It's a hassle when you have loads of trains on a single track.
22:02:12 <xiong> Where's the challenge, I say? With no breakdowns it's possible to build a near-perfect network; you can synchronize the movement of each train until it's just one big train going around.
22:02:32 <wargh> I like the challenge of trying to have as much traffic as possible through my networks before starting to add more tracks
22:02:49 <xiong> Breakdowns force you to be fault-tolerant. That's not much of a sophisticated statement but there it is.
22:03:17 <wargh> Yeah I understand the extra dimension it puts on your networking
22:04:06 <Regiovogel> uh, it's a bit late. time to go to bed. i'd like to thank you all for the nice evening
22:04:08 <xiong> I guess I link 'no breakdowns' to a certain style of programming in which errors are not anticipated or tolerated; there is no chance to recover from an error, etc.
22:04:19 <xiong> Regiovogel, Good morning!
22:04:20 <wargh> I guess I have a somewhat different playstyle compared to many ppl here. For example I use AI competition as they make it harder to build furhter into the game
22:04:41 <Regiovogel> doog morning? how late is it? ;)
22:04:56 <Regiovogel> err, good, not doog... (too late!)
22:05:13 <xiong> wargh, AI play is serious stuff. I didn't realize how tough until I beat several of them... and they came back. It's not actually possible to eliminate competition, I think.
22:05:17 <Regiovogel> my clock says it's 11 o'clock in the evening ;)
22:05:24 <Terkhen> good night Regiovogel
22:05:45 <xiong> ... which for me, is morning.
22:06:13 <Regiovogel> uh, 2:05 pm would be nice. then it would be only three hours until i could code a bit more...
22:06:23 <xiong> In fact, /me thinks coffee.
22:08:21 <Regiovogel> so... good night everyone (or something like that :))
22:08:31 <wargh> xiong: I never try to eliminate the AI. Or well, sometimes I don't build bridges over their roads so my trains sometimes crash their trucks.
22:09:13 <wargh> I want them to get money to build as much as possible.
22:09:43 <wargh> But sure I still build at some of the same industries
22:10:54 <wargh> And I always use default trainlenght, I guess that might not be usual, and only one train engine.
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22:12:19 <xiong> Hm. I have built tiny circles of track across roads heavily frequented by AI trucks and run single engines with no orders for the express purpose of crashing as many as possible.
22:13:03 <xiong> Do this far enough from town and there are no repercussions. :P
22:14:14 <xiong> On another note: I'm starting to find it easier to doze something and build again, rather than try to fix it.
22:15:17 <wargh> Yes is it, but it's no fun. :)
22:15:46 <wargh> I start with a basic rout, and then I add track/trains to it until it gets full
22:16:04 <wargh> And often the computer makes it hard to add new tracks
22:16:29 <wargh> So then I really need to start thinking how to rearrange my tracks on the space I already use
22:17:10 <wargh> This I find really fun and challenging and it's really satisfying when I get the traffic to flow smooth again
22:17:37 <wargh> This game can be played in so many ways so I guess we all find our own flavours and rules to play by. :)
22:18:58 <wargh> I just started playing OpenTTD. I used to play TTDpatch for several yeas a few years ago. So a few of the things that made it easier to build in ttd I didn't really like, like the posibility to build a bridge over and in the same dirrection as a road. I felt it made it to easy
22:21:01 <wargh> And when I randomise my maps I want them as hilly and ruff as possible, and with as much water as possible. To make it harder to build. :)
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22:23:11 <Rubidium> wargh: then disable building on slopes ;)
22:25:31 <wargh> That one I actually like. :)
22:25:36 <wargh> It was in TTDpatch also
22:26:47 <wargh> I guess I set my standard a bit after that patch. It can still get really hard sometimes even with the better building of tracks on openttd
22:29:37 <wargh> I don't think I've used the option to build bridges over existing roads/railways. (for more than one square)
22:30:03 <wargh> Might be some exception somewhere that I haven't thought about when I build it
22:38:20 <xiong> Please tell me how to disable the prototype offers. I *never* accept them and they are quite distracting.
22:40:47 <valhalla2w> check the news settings dialog
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22:44:01 <xiong> Nope. Messages for new vehicles; but that's when they're in production. The prototype offers aren't presented as news or messages, you know, but in the form of an interactive dialog that you must dismiss with either Yes or No.
22:44:01 * dihedral greets the valhalla2w
22:44:45 <dihedral> xiong, it is offering you that vehicle for a year before other companies can access the vehicle
22:44:53 <dihedral> that is not a setting to be disabled!
22:44:54 <xiong> ... which is one reason I find them so distracting; another being that they pop up in the middle of the screen and obstruct my view, often aborting a tricky track placement.
22:45:22 <dihedral> what on earth is a 'tricky' track placement
22:45:41 <dihedral> you place a track in one of possible 4 directions! there is nothing tricky about it
22:46:21 <dihedral> sorry - i am being nasty again, i did not mean to :-)
22:48:45 <valhalla2w> xiong: hm, strange, I thought there was a way to switch it off. sorry
22:48:48 *** valhalla2w is now known as valhallasw
22:49:48 <xiong> I don't know why these offers are made or why anyone would want them. I've heard that if you accept, then after the vehicle enters production it will be more reliable. I haven't found that.
22:49:52 <wargh> I would like an option that's somewhere in between "Vehicles expire" On/Off. Because I hate having old trains staying in my list forever but at the same time I don't switch old track for monoral/Maglev so I want to be able to keep using Asiastar forever. Sure I can have expire on until very late game and set it to never when only Asiastar is avaliable.
22:50:20 <wargh> But it still dissapeared in the autoreplace window at 2079 or something like that. :/
22:50:26 <xiong> I've also heard that if you accept such an offer and then don't take advantage of it, you'll get fewer such in future. Haven't found that, either; I am always offered a prototype of every new vehicle.
22:51:37 <dihedral> is this a single player game?
22:54:23 <TruePikachu> xiong: RE offers from the company, I've seen that, if you accept an offer and do not utilize it, you will not recieve any new offers for 20 months
22:54:48 <TruePikachu> You have 12 months to utilize it
22:54:59 <dihedral> yay - now 2 experts have found eachother :-P
22:55:45 <Yexo> then after the vehicle enters production it will be more reliable. I haven't found that. <- the vehicle is less reliable in the first year
22:55:45 <TruePikachu> And, if you get it early, the reliability is reduce FOR THAT YEAR BEFORE OTHER COMPANIES CAN GET IT
22:55:47 <xiong> TruePikachu, I heard that. But it doesn't seem to work that way, sorry.
22:55:59 <Yexo> after a year it'll always have the same reliability, doesn't matter whether or not you accept the offer
22:56:29 <TruePikachu> And all these statements RE reliability are per normal sets - NewGRFs can change it all they want
22:56:34 <xiong> Also, I just don't see the point, again, sorry.
22:56:38 <dihedral> only ever trust the code - not what 'people' tell you
22:56:52 <dihedral> or trust the developers and others who know the code :-P
22:57:03 <TruePikachu> And I'm just quoting from the forums
22:57:06 <xiong> Well, there you go. I'm playing NARS and all sorts of funky road vehicle sets. These may just ignore whatever prototype action.
22:57:22 <xiong> I just want to turn it off.
22:57:24 <TruePikachu> NARSv2 will follow
22:57:44 <TruePikachu> eGRVTS also follows (name?)
22:57:47 <xiong> TruePikachu, Again, I'm very sorry; I don't like to contradict but not for me.
22:58:01 <TruePikachu> What are the parameters you're using on NARS?
22:58:17 <TruePikachu> I don't think they would mess it up, but just in case
22:58:26 <TruePikachu> Better yet, a savegame would be nice
22:58:31 <xiong> If I accept and don't use, I still get offers. If I don't accept, I still get offers. If I accept and use, I don't get any improvement -- not that I'm able to notice. No benefit whatever.
22:58:39 <TruePikachu> And what version of OpenTTD is this?
22:59:04 <wargh> Considering ppls different taste it's a miracle that ppl can play this game in multiplayer and found the settings to be satisfying. :)
22:59:15 <xiong> NARS 2.03; number of params: 0
23:01:04 <xiong> TruePikachu, I could drag the community through a savegame but what's the point? If prototypes had, for me, all the advertised behavior, I still wouldn't want the offers made. No offense. I just don't see the point. The vehicles are useless; I wouldn't hazard them on the layout. This is a philosophical point, or anyway a playing style.
23:01:08 <TruePikachu> Latest nightly is r22070, see if you still have the problem there
23:01:37 <TruePikachu> Savegames store more than just the map; they also save all (even hidden) settings.
23:01:46 <xiong> TruePikachu, Dunno if I'm up to downloading and installing all over again. Certainly not right now; I gotta go to work soon.
23:02:09 <TruePikachu> Well, just leave us with the savegame, and we'll take a look at it
23:02:14 <xiong> I know you're interested in why I'm not seeing what you're describing.
23:02:30 <xiong> Well, where do you want it?
23:02:31 <TruePikachu> Wait - have you modified the NewGRF list in-game?
23:02:52 <TruePikachu> xiong: You can just toss it up on the Forums
23:03:04 <TruePikachu> Make sure it's the right place
23:03:18 <xiong> I never change anything in a running game. Or, at least, I never did until Yexo mentioned the go-to-depot penalty.
23:03:24 <xiong> Where's the right place?
23:03:35 <TruePikachu> Probablly OpenTTD -> Bugs
23:03:54 <TruePikachu> Not the flyspray, though
23:04:04 <dihedral> ignore TruePika* all
23:04:29 * TruePikachu doesn't have the forums open right now
23:04:42 <xiong> Look, I don't even know how to write this up.
23:05:49 <xiong> Board index OpenTTD OpenTTD Problems
23:08:20 <TruePikachu> From planetmaker, no less
23:09:33 <xiong> Ahhh! I've already picked a spot.
23:09:53 <TruePikachu> No, not for a spot
23:10:06 <TruePikachu> An overview of what you aren't getting
23:11:36 <TruePikachu> Yay for having bookmarked that one thread :D
23:16:15 <TruePikachu> Just read the backlog, and the thread I linked is coincidentially the polar opposite of your feature request here
23:18:02 <xiong> Well, I'm not going to double-post. Anyway, I gotta hop in the shower and unstinky. People take note of that, you know.
23:25:34 <TruePikachu> xiong: For future reference, there is an edit function in the tt-forums
23:26:18 <TruePikachu> I know of some forums that don't have such a function, so it is lucky that this one has it
23:27:31 <wargh> This game is dangerous. I've been stuck for 5 hours in a row.
23:28:09 <Markk> I've been playing it since 2005 now.
23:28:46 <wargh> I don't really know when I started but I've hand a break for maybe two years.
23:29:16 <Markk> That's nice when you rediscover things.
23:29:23 <ccfreak2k> Forums without the ability to edit your own posts are terrible forums.
23:29:28 <wargh> I was just to lazy to try and get ttdpatch to work when I upgraded my OS: :P
23:29:48 <ccfreak2k> There are also some forums (many?) that only allow you to edit your post if there aren't any other posts after it.
23:30:10 <Markk> That's quite common imo.
23:33:58 <wargh> Mauve is a bad color to use for ones company. It's hard to see against the gray charts. :)
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