IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-02-12
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00:00:52 <Nite> well use longer sections (meaning between signals)
00:03:13 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
00:04:59 <nicfer> I had one train 7 tiles long and the others like 3
00:05:12 <nicfer> dunno if that was the problem
00:07:02 <Nite> so you are not in an MP game atm?
00:07:24 <Nite> earlier planetmaker talked about "autobalancing" ...
00:21:41 <TruePikachu> On the town list, there should really be a way to filter cities in or out
00:22:14 <Nite> or show the number of towns in total ;)
00:23:02 <Nite> by what you wanted them to be filtered?
00:23:15 <Nite> there is size and name already
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00:26:43 <TruePikachu> Well, cities for sure, maybe also dimensions?
00:27:23 <TruePikachu> Or size - total # of tiles that the LA takes control of
00:29:54 <TruePikachu> Also the world map fails at signs - maybe in the same text as town names?
00:30:34 <Nite> well: the sign list is very helpfull to find places
00:31:14 <TruePikachu> Finding a place is not the same as comparing locations at a glance
00:31:24 <TruePikachu> Especially with respect to the map
00:31:34 <TruePikachu> * where on the map
00:33:33 <Nite> if we all agree that "north" is upper left edge on the map then why does the compass icon show upperright ? ;p
00:34:30 <TruePikachu> Apparently Chris Sawyer never played RRT2 ;)
00:34:56 <TruePikachu> That's why I use |\ as N
00:35:46 <TruePikachu> But, well, I'm starting a game up, and I marked the cities with signs
00:36:00 <TruePikachu> Hmmm...is there a coordinate display?
00:36:39 <TruePikachu> If so, I'll just SVG a map up
00:36:54 <Nite> also when i build statoins around a town in right angle to the center the *****north station is upper right - west upper left
00:37:39 <TruePikachu> Hmmm...a "North direction" option?
00:37:39 <Nite> is upper left is north a false myth ? or is station names completely random?
00:38:04 <TruePikachu> There is a theme with NSEW for the station name
00:38:27 * TruePikachu also thought there was some sort of compass thing
00:39:54 <Nite> all towns i surround by busstaions lead to same notht upper RIGHT west upper left
00:41:52 <TruePikachu> Yes, because everyone knows that penguins live at the South Pool (i.e. Japan)
00:42:57 <Nite> honestly i do not get "east" at all
00:43:16 <TruePikachu> What is the town name?
00:43:46 <Nite> i trie it on many towns in singleplayer atm
00:44:02 <Wolf01> station naming should be revisited imho, names like "central" "transfer" etc should be based on distance from the city center, NWSE should be based in the right direction based on the city center, and composite names might get a chance, like "fartburg suburbs east"
00:44:26 * TruePikachu thinks someone should see how those suffexes are generated
00:44:45 * TruePikachu is busy with a game right now, tho
00:45:14 * Wolf01 is busy on get to the bed
00:45:40 <Nite> you know what i conclude quickly
00:45:43 <TruePikachu> There should also be an option to let the player choose which way North is via advanced options
00:46:00 <Nite> north is the upper corner not some edge
00:46:05 <TruePikachu> Upper-left, upper-right, or upper-center
00:46:14 <Wolf01> devs are removing advanced options and you want to introduce a new one?
00:46:27 <TruePikachu> Lol, maybe a secret option
00:46:52 <TruePikachu> * sets North to upper-left
00:47:08 <Nite> because the n e s w works when i place stations that way its correct
00:47:48 <TruePikachu> Hmmm...think these would be nice for 1.1.0? Better station naming?
00:48:26 <Nite> could i t be that ther is an "X" with the center at the towns center tile
00:48:45 <TruePikachu> In my diagrams, yes
00:49:13 <TruePikachu> Not needed - it is always a road tile just below the callout
00:49:29 <TruePikachu> *game map i.e. where you click to do everything
00:51:40 <TruePikachu> ^ Hosted by a calc programmer, just like old rafb.paste
00:52:08 <TruePikachu> A down-and-dirty one
00:52:25 * TruePikachu has no Ctrl-enter
00:52:38 <Nite> i couldnt send it beginning with "/"
00:52:47 <Wolf01> don't use phones to chat here
00:53:03 <Wolf01> ctrl+enter does the trick
00:53:17 <Nite> anyway wold01 got what i mean
00:53:25 <Nite> and it works for every town so far
00:54:35 * TruePikachu likes how useful Inkscape can be
00:54:50 <TruePikachu> Especially with how it is finally working on this box
00:55:19 <TruePikachu> It wanted blahblahblah.so.1, I had .so.3
00:55:23 <Wolf01> ^^^ I usually intend the map like this
00:55:53 * TruePikachu wonders if antiflod will kick in
00:56:22 <TruePikachu> Oooo...just got idea for irssi
00:56:32 <Wolf01> (forgot to use ctrl this time ;))
00:58:36 <TruePikachu> 6 lines, permission to Xmit?
00:59:25 <TruePikachu> My idea for maps to be arranged:
00:59:51 <TruePikachu> Lol @ external keyboard buffer
01:00:56 <Nite> anyone on a server right now?
01:01:07 <TruePikachu> ^^ I can't read ASCII outside of 0x20 and 0x7F, fyi
01:01:25 <TruePikachu> Stupid console character set...
01:01:40 <TruePikachu> Only way to OTTD and IRC at same time for me, though
01:04:08 <Nite> there is an inventin called "screen" where you can arrange squares called windows to show you different content like ottd & irc at the same time
01:05:00 <TruePikachu> I'm not using split screen
01:05:00 <Nite> also called "monitor" btw
01:05:11 * TruePikachu is using GNU SCREEN
01:05:14 <Maarten> And something like quassel, which allows you to have graphical IRC chat, connected to a core elsewhere, more or less similar like irssii and screen. Time to drag that 20th century console chat to the 21st century my friend :)
01:05:20 <TruePikachu> ^A^C creates a new virtual console
01:05:49 <TruePikachu> And I can't use a graphical chat right now, as I prefer fullscreen OTTD
01:06:06 <Maarten> that is where 2 monitors come in :)
01:06:27 * TruePikachu has no free PCI slots, and only a half-height AGP
01:06:39 <Nite> i dont even know how to activate fullscreen in ottd
01:06:49 <Nite> and when i treid it never worked
01:06:52 <TruePikachu> Ummm...some option
01:07:13 <Maarten> 1920x1080 on monitor 1, great for OpenTTD, and 1280x1024 on the second, good enough for chat, websites, and other stuff I'd like to have active during OpenTTD.
01:07:23 <Nite> "fullscreen mode failed"
01:07:35 * TruePikachu has no capability to add another monitor to this computer
01:07:37 <Nite> is all i get, why like this?
01:08:03 <TruePikachu> What OS and display specs?
01:09:57 <Nite> wayhey! it works - just had to select NOTotherresolution
01:10:12 <TruePikachu> ^^ Well there's your problem!
01:10:17 <Nite> even in glorioan 640x480 ! this shocks me!
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01:13:26 * TruePikachu imagines running irssi in the console
01:13:36 <TruePikachu> i.e. the [`] console
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01:35:37 * TruePikachu printed the map backwards
01:37:01 <TruePikachu> Oh well, just a general guide
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05:40:31 <xiong> Is there truly no hotkey for the query (?) tool? Or have I only been unable to find it?
05:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> have you tried things like Ctrl+F12?
05:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> argh, right. i know the flaw in this thought :p
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06:32:17 <Yexo> xiong: there is a hotkey for that, but it only works in the scenario editor
06:32:55 <Yexo> see train_list under [scenedit_maintoolbar] in hotkeys.cfg
06:33:17 <Yexo> yes, that name is a bug, if anyone is looking for something easy to fix there you have it
06:36:24 <xiong> Yexo, It would be useful to have a hotkey in play. "/' would be a good choice. Even better would be a small x,y,z readout right under the cursor.
06:36:58 <xiong> Surveying would go so very much more quickly if one didn't need to click a button.
06:36:58 <Yexo> feel free to create a small patch to have a hotkey for it ingame too, I agree it would be useful
06:38:25 <xiong> I'm the fellow who had trouble coding a town name GRF. I know nothing at all about the main codebase or even the language in which it's written. I'm not a software professional; I'm a graphic artist, among other things.
06:38:40 <xiong> At best, I dabble in Perl.
06:40:48 <xiong> I don't know why people are always urging me to write or patch this or that. I have no deep computer software skills. I consider it a good day when I manage to install a new piece of software without causing a crash.
06:46:14 <Yexo> you don't have to code it, somebody else might
06:46:39 <Yexo> I was merely agreeing with you that such a hotkey would be useful and that I'd certainly include it if someone wrote a patch
06:46:50 <Yexo> as right now I don't have the patience to do that
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07:33:52 <Rubidium> Yexo: but translating the ancient stuff is so much better. That doesn't change anymore, so much less maintainance
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07:40:14 <planetmaker> the definition of "full set" seems to be interesting.
07:40:26 <planetmaker> probably full set = random newgrf
07:41:17 * planetmaker ponders to re-write that page
07:46:07 * planetmaker starts to cleanup
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08:14:39 <Nite> full is if the artist says so!
08:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i have my doubt any artist ever touched that wiki page
08:50:08 <dihedral> what happend to the spanish guy?
08:55:15 <Terkhen> oh right, sorry, I'm not very smart in the mornings :)
08:55:40 <Terkhen> he said he would install IRC and pay us a visit here
09:00:00 <dihedral> interesting - i did not know there were that many people who do not use IRC but play OpenTTD :-P
09:04:15 <dihedral> licensing question: i have a java project which used snippets from OpenTTD's network code - that probably means my licensing questions are answered? or is the amount of code i used form OpenTTD compared to the amount of code i have written myself relevant?
09:06:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the ratio itself is not relevant. relevant is the question whether it is a "significant amount of creativity"
09:07:08 <Eddi|zuHause> neither quality nor quantity is of relevance
09:07:47 <dihedral> and who judges that "significant amount of creativity"?
09:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "(3) Computerprogramme werden geschützt, wenn sie individuelle Werke in dem Sinne darstellen, daß sie das Ergebnis der eigenen geistigen Schöpfung ihres Urhebers sind. Zur Bestimmung ihrer Schutzfähigkeit sind keine anderen Kriterien, insbesondere nicht qualitative oder ästhetische, anzuwenden."
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09:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: anything that is not copy-pasting the tutorial.
09:09:58 <dihedral> that would then probably include packet.cpp :-D
09:12:50 <dihedral> ah - i thought i had made a mistake in my licensing - by putting my projects under gpl v2 or any later version
09:12:57 <dihedral> but they are under gpl v2 only
09:17:10 <Wolf01> so if I make another game, maybe written from scratch, with different graphics, but based on the same gameplay of an existent game, my one cannot be protected because not "original"?
09:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: no, "ideas" are not copyright-able
09:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: as long as you don't copy any actual code or design documents, you are not violating copyright
09:18:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: for "ideas", there are patents.
09:20:34 <Wolf01> but what you reported says that a program must be an "original creation" of the author, if it's based on another existent idea it's not original
09:21:11 <Wolf01> or I misunderstant the concept of originality
09:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you misunderstand it. this is about the implementation, not the idea
09:22:28 <Wolf01> ah, ok, brb -> breakfast
09:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: of course, with such an isolated piece of code like the network code you probably have a fairly limited amount of authors which you can ask to release it under a different license
09:28:49 <dihedral> well i can still release a library under gpl v2 which does the network part, and release the rest of the bot under another lisence
09:28:57 <dihedral> or multiple licenses
09:29:20 <dihedral> and seeing as i am then using an api rather than the code snippets - it should be fine
09:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that may be possible, too.
09:30:00 <dihedral> as far as i have understood it, i could even use gpl v2 for the network stuff (project joan) and v3 for the bot (project grapes) and have each other plugin be under another license yet
09:30:04 <Eddi|zuHause> afair the GPL only requires you to provide source code for the "linked to" libraries, they don't have to be gpl'ed
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10:17:11 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Wolf01: GPL is a bit stricter than that: It requires that any redistribution of the work, or derived works are distributed under GPL as well
10:18:08 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Wolf01: There is no special treatment for libraries in the license, so there is some debate whether linking to a library creates a "derived work"
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10:22:06 <blathijs> Wolf01: But mostly there is no "only requires you to provide source code" part in GPL, as Eddi|zuHause commented, it always requires distributing derived works under the complete GPL
10:22:36 <blathijs> there is the concept of being "GPL compatible", but I think that only means that a license is open enough to allow relicensing the work under GPL...
10:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: it all gets a bit fuzzy when "sparate parts" get involved
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10:36:50 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have been thinking about FIRS supplies behaviour
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10:37:07 <andythenorth> if I can figure out how to cleanly decouple the amount needed from strings etc
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10:43:03 <andythenorth> the amounts could be user configurable
10:43:10 <andythenorth> or they could adjust with production
10:46:17 <__ln__> 11:18 < Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: as long as you don't copy any actual code or design documents, you are not violating copyright <--- however this doesn't mean that drawing the same artwork by hand and making a program an exact copy of the original does not remove the original copyright. even if nothing is directly copied in the technical sense.
10:47:35 <Wolf01> "does not remove" from the original, but the copy it should be relicensed
10:47:49 <andythenorth> FIRS supplies is more of a headache than I thought
10:48:01 <andythenorth> it's coupled tightly to economies
10:49:06 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: even if it is possible that two persons write exactly the same program, they will find it very hard to prove that they didn't actually copy anything
10:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: "copying" includes more than just digital copies here
10:56:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you mean the farm / eng. / manufacturing supplies?
10:56:25 <planetmaker> nah, keep them... And at most add a switch to completely kick them - but that might be an economy
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10:57:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I think it's an economy
10:58:29 <andythenorth> I wanted to consider the suggestions from V453000
10:58:45 <andythenorth> about changing the supply behaviour to require progressive amounts
10:58:59 <andythenorth> but I think that would need to be a parameter options ('simple / complex')
10:59:17 <andythenorth> and then that parameter would conflict with turning off supplies altogether :(
11:07:35 * andythenorth parks that question for now :P
11:07:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: got time to look at the Serbian translation quickly?
11:11:46 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the supply could IMHO be like V suggests by default. But well, could be a parameter, too and does not collide with 'no supplies' really
11:11:55 <planetmaker> What about the serbian translation?
11:12:05 <planetmaker> you mean I should try to add it?
11:12:12 <andythenorth> I'm not sure if it's valid, or if it will over-write changes you made yesterday
11:12:19 <andythenorth> I did a test, it compiles ok
11:12:27 <andythenorth> but I don't want to undo your work ;)
11:13:17 <planetmaker> got the ticket #?
11:13:28 <planetmaker> I guess it still has many strings which must go
11:13:57 <andythenorth> it seems that swapping cargo properties 0B and 0C for 1B and 1C is savegame safe
11:14:04 <andythenorth> I am surprised by that :o
11:14:38 <planetmaker> that's only strings IIRC?
11:14:58 <planetmaker> that's not stored anywhere
11:15:11 <planetmaker> except in the newgrf
11:15:27 <andythenorth> I guess I am used to tile based things
11:15:35 <andythenorth> removing action 0 props in a tile is often bad
11:16:44 <andythenorth> looks like FIRS 0.6.1 should be 0.6 savegame safe :)
11:16:52 <Eddi|zuHause> dear cat. how often do i have to tell you that this is MY chair?
11:17:00 <andythenorth> tell it with electricity
11:17:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm occasionally getting electrostatically charged while petting the cats
11:21:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I treated the serbian translation such that it does not contain (anymore) any unused ones. Shall I commit?
11:21:19 <andythenorth> I am looking for any other small tickets for 0.6.1
11:21:24 <andythenorth> otherwise it is done and ready :)
11:21:50 <planetmaker> Well, Terkhen might want to update the Spanish translation
11:23:16 <planetmaker> The cargoamount strings are untranslated
11:24:07 <andythenorth> will it default to 7F
11:24:46 <andythenorth> no disaster then
11:25:10 <fjb> Hm, most efficient airport is the communter?
11:25:40 <planetmaker> the 2nd biggest iirc, international
11:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: depends on your definition of efficiency
11:27:43 <fjb> 2nd biggest can handle more cargo (partly because itcan handle bogger planes), but the long runways cause long taxy ways for smaller airplanes.
11:29:42 <fjb> A tooltip telling me what airport would be accepted at a tile would be really nice.
11:31:48 <fjb> The problem of the biggest airport are the even longer taxy ways?
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11:43:17 <planetmaker> fjb: rather the state machine
11:43:54 <planetmaker> feel free to supply a patch which increases the intercontinental's effectiveness (if that's possible, might also be related to its layout)
11:44:29 <fjb> I looked at it and the layout is not optimal.
11:44:59 <planetmaker> it needs NewAirports ;-)
11:45:15 <fjb> Looking at realworld airports would show how to solve the problem.
11:45:42 <planetmaker> better runway offset... yeah
11:45:55 <fjb> What happened to NewAirports? Death caused by bitrot?
11:46:18 <planetmaker> Well... not dead, but sleeping
11:46:37 <planetmaker> But nobody uses so far what is already possible: provide rotations for the existing airports
11:47:00 <planetmaker> Nobody can be bothered to even supply the (few) needed sprites for that despite a standing offer to have them coded
11:47:01 <fjb> Too bad. Especially nie small airports looked possible.
11:47:49 <planetmaker> Both definitely is not helping in the motivation to get the full-fledged NewAirports finished, I'd bet
11:48:08 <planetmaker> despite it being anything but trivial
11:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: conceptual difficulties that need a change in specification
11:48:40 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: and nobody dares to tackle that
11:49:04 <planetmaker> iirc yexo has an idea or concept how to do that.
11:49:10 <fjb> Hm, should not be that difficult to break down the OpenGFX airports an make single tiles from them.
11:49:39 <planetmaker> fjb: quite not. You'd have only to supply the buildings in the other 3 rotations
11:49:49 <planetmaker> the hangar exists
11:50:02 <planetmaker> at least the modern one
11:50:06 <andythenorth> what sprites are needed for new airports?
11:50:11 <planetmaker> runways... could be rotated simply
11:50:14 <andythenorth> I have an entirely different motivation to see it done
11:50:18 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: shouldn't flipping suffice for the other buildings?
11:50:22 <fjb> So it is mirroring an then repainting to adjust the sunshine.
11:50:37 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: not for 2x1 or 3x1 buidling rows. and light
11:51:03 <planetmaker> and the backside... should it look the same?
11:51:18 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: does that really matter?
11:51:25 <fjb> It would be a starting point.
11:51:28 <planetmaker> for a concept-study: no
11:51:36 <planetmaker> for a nice newgrf: yes
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11:52:04 <fjb> Nice newgrfs tend to come when the game mechanics are in place and working.
11:52:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it needs mostly the buildings in the other three rotations
11:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i have the fear that OpenGFX will be stuck at it's (fairly low) level of quality, and doesn't improve over time
11:53:32 <planetmaker> interest to change things is pretty low. Most people want to change vehicles. I'd like less noisy houses most urgently
11:53:39 <fjb> But it is more difficult to make a nice looking airport newgrf when the game engine does not support it for testing.
11:53:48 <planetmaker> The airports are not bad IMHO
11:54:32 <fjb> Import swedish houses. :)
11:54:49 <planetmaker> Well. One could... But not sure it makes sense
11:55:02 <planetmaker> I still toy the idea to import the shanghai maglev
11:55:04 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: at least OpenGFX has seen improvement since it was a full set; OpenSFX is more dead than OpenGFX
11:55:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: when looking at screenshots, the tracks look the worst
11:55:22 <planetmaker> tracks look worse?
11:55:28 <planetmaker> should I update to SER tracks?
11:55:41 <planetmaker> or a nutracks version?
11:55:56 <Eddi|zuHause> nutracks looks more like concept art ;)
11:56:05 <Ammler> mäh, worst is using other newgrf sprites for opengfx
11:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know how SER looks like
11:56:51 <Ammler> those are "better" yarrs
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11:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't YARRS only recoloured default rails?
11:57:47 <planetmaker> Ammler: why is it bad to use newgrf sprites for opengfx?
11:57:51 <Ammler> and ser has awesome snow support
11:58:03 <Ammler> because you can use teh newgrf to get those sprites
12:00:29 <Eddi|zuHause> anyways, i don't see myself using opengfx in the near future
12:01:11 <dihedral> Rubidium, can a notification in the admin network for setting changes make sense?
12:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... in the last few weeks i have heard almost a dozen different pronunciations of "Sanaa"
12:01:42 <dihedral> i.e. if someone changes the server password - it would be nice if connected bots could pick up on that
12:05:13 <planetmaker> in any case, opengfx could use another person who also actually codes the set...
12:05:52 <planetmaker> it used to be a big number of people who were all excited about it and contributing... but that dwindled to very few. Sadly
12:06:21 <planetmaker> Though there's somewhat a steady stream of new sprites and quite some waiting :-)
12:06:55 <planetmaker> which again boils down to "2nd person actually coding on it" would also be nice
12:07:24 * fjb sings: "You can't hurry sprites, you just have to wait..."
12:08:48 <planetmaker> Well... I wonder though if maybe the arctic stuff could re-use swedish houses. In order to really differenciate climates
12:08:56 <Ammler> 3 open tickets for next release and not really something of those are codeable
12:09:25 <planetmaker> Ammler: there are lot of code reviews with sprites
12:09:30 <planetmaker> just without assigned version
12:10:06 <planetmaker> looking at the feedback in the forum, I'm a bit hesitant currently on continuing with the planes. There are good arguments for both.
12:10:50 <planetmaker> My personal preference would be all those planes more scaled down. The 747 is too big for my personal taste.
12:11:32 <planetmaker> also, completely other issue: the shores need re-drawing. All of them except toyland
12:11:46 * DanMacK can definitely scale down the 747, the others should be OK
12:12:07 <planetmaker> :-) I just wonder then about the relative scale - though that might not matter really
12:13:08 * DanMacK thinks that using 1CC parts of a newgrf is not a bad thing for OpenGFX - If the parts are realistic, why not use them?
12:14:43 <Eddi|zuHause> damn, i can't listen to radio anymore.
12:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i always want to skip bad songs
12:15:44 <Ammler> planetmaker: any ticket about the shores, don't get the reason there
12:16:50 <Ammler> I would make smaller shorts like those from ttd and use the current opengfx shores for ogfx+water :-)
12:17:22 <planetmaker> and yes, the only conclusion can be to reduce the amount of sand
12:17:34 <planetmaker> at least somewhat
12:18:39 <Ammler> hmm, doesn't frosch have a patch for that?
12:19:42 <andythenorth> that shores ticket is literally the definition of a corner case
12:19:46 <andythenorth> I'd be ignoring it :P
12:21:01 <planetmaker> it's a valid ticket, though
12:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "corner case" is good ;)
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12:28:15 <[twisti]> is there a way to set the game to not have stuff get worse over time ?
12:29:02 <[twisti]> you know like new trains are good but after some time they get less good
12:29:19 <planetmaker> disable breakdowns?
12:29:24 <[twisti]> id like to leave the game just running in the background but i dont want everything to be all crappy
12:29:34 <[twisti]> its not just breakdowns though
12:29:45 <planetmaker> what else can fail?
12:29:46 <[twisti]> like people dont seem to like this that arent new
12:29:58 <[twisti]> and towns dont rate your things as well if its not new
12:30:23 <planetmaker> if you service well with vehicles that's not an issue
12:33:42 <[twisti]> i dont understand how you mean that
12:34:00 <[twisti]> for example, station ratings go down 23 points if the last vehicle there wasnt new
12:34:38 <Ammler> replace a old train with a new one
12:35:02 <[twisti]> right, but i dont want to have to do that all the time
12:35:10 <[twisti]> so i was hoping for a way to just freeze the date or something
12:38:30 <DanMacK> It's called pause :P j/k
12:39:10 <Eddi|zuHause> play in the year 5000000
12:39:27 <planetmaker> I think DanMacK has quite a point :-)
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12:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but this is a good idea for a hidden/console setting: looping year [default: 5000000]
12:41:45 <[twisti]> is this a joke or is there something special about year 500000 ?
12:42:47 <planetmaker> #define MAX_YEAR 5000000
12:43:37 <Hirundo> 5000000 is the real 2012, the world ends in that year
12:44:21 <[twisti]> so if i set the game to year 5000000, it will stay there ?
12:44:33 <andythenorth> I saw a hindu hairdresser on tv a few days ago, he said the end of the world is in 250 years
12:44:49 <planetmaker> it must be right. It was in TV
12:45:20 <andythenorth> one day an end of the world cult will actually be correct in their prediction :P
12:45:33 <andythenorth> I hope they're satisfied when they're proven right :P
12:45:35 <[twisti]> yeah but nobody will care
12:45:57 <[twisti]> its the end of the world, remember
12:46:24 <[twisti]> its pretty unlikely that people will be concerned about who called it while they are, you know, dead and dying
12:49:04 * andythenorth never thought of that
12:49:20 <[twisti]> thats the problem with doomsday prophecies
12:49:51 <[twisti]> either there is some point where people will laugh at you and ridicule you, like january 1st 2000, or youre right but then you never get to brag about it
12:51:45 <Eddi|zuHause> there are about a dozen doomsday prophecies per year...
12:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> eventually, one of them is bound to be right :p
12:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... gray-furry-thing-that-makes-miau-slightly-less-often-than-black-furry-thing-that-makes-miau
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14:51:29 <George> Is there anybody here who can say, how hard is to implement FS#4399 ?
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15:01:25 <Pulec> and who can do stuff in php?
15:04:56 <planetmaker> wrong channel for that?
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16:10:02 * andythenorth wonders how bananas works
16:10:17 <andythenorth> specifically, if I set min version to nightly, can 1.1 beta users get it?
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16:23:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the station build window _really_ could use remembering the size
16:24:38 <andythenorth> start there, you could do all of them :P
16:24:44 <andythenorth> why stop at just one?
16:27:46 <Eddi|zuHause> because this one has an absurdly low default size
16:29:47 <Eddi|zuHause> other candidates are very loaded windows like the newgrf settings
16:30:47 <andythenorth> actually there aren't that many with a problem
16:30:58 <andythenorth> newgrf window is another story
16:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> while at it: ctrl+click the resize button restores default size? useful or not?
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16:41:19 <volta> hi folks, is the following a normal behaviour: i have a train station (no train inside) and build another station at the same place (format doesn't matter); instead of getting an error 'must demolish railroad station first' the game builds the new station above the old one
16:42:40 <planetmaker> so that you can beautify your station by just overbuilding it
16:42:46 <supermop> it allows you to replace a station with another station type
16:43:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "since Monty Python offers free videos at youtube, DVD sales have risen by 23000%"
16:43:58 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: that cannot be true ;)
16:45:36 <volta> ok, what about the costs? compare overbuilding with removing station, tracks and building the new station
16:46:24 <planetmaker> you don't have remove the tracks. Consider re-building a house against just renovating
16:47:56 <volta> ok, sounds logical, but for me it's still a strange feature
16:47:58 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: true?
16:48:36 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i have not more information than is in the link
16:48:45 <supermop> I just had an idea while in that thread about the firs docks
16:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it sounds perfectly plausible, though...
17:05:37 <andythenorth> what does "Show company liveries" do in advanced settings?
17:06:02 <supermop> are they not always shown?
17:06:39 <andythenorth> can't see anything changing when I use it
17:07:06 <supermop> maybe it affects if you have set different colors for different vehicle types
17:07:28 <supermop> so in mp you can't have trains that look like they belong to a competitor?
17:08:09 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that makes it clear that spreading stuff for nothing is detrimental for the sale of blurays
17:17:25 <supermop> can docks draw sprites based on waiting cargo like platforms can?
17:19:49 <planetmaker> only rail stations can
17:20:07 <planetmaker> actually maybe airports can, too
17:20:16 <planetmaker> *that* might be interesting...
17:20:29 <planetmaker> but neither docks nor road stops
17:24:15 <supermop> so much for that idea...
17:25:10 <supermop> someone made a firs dock, and there seemed to be disagreement as to whether it shoulf look like a passenger or freight terminal
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17:26:28 <supermop> but if you had a plain dock and "built" passenger buildinds or cranes on it based on what typ of cargo waited there most in last x days (forget how that part of station code works, because i have yet to use it),
17:26:30 <planetmaker> A dock should be multip-purpose
17:26:42 <planetmaker> as long as we don't have newgrf-able ones
17:26:47 <supermop> you could get around the fact that we only have one dock
17:27:14 <andythenorth> I would not go cargo specific
17:27:17 <supermop> so a dock with many passengers ad goods waiting could have a few passengers and a few stacks of crates
17:27:28 <andythenorth> I always use ISR tiles for waiting dock cargo
17:27:55 <supermop> or lets say one passenger terminal and one crane
17:31:54 <planetmaker> supermop: the true solution to this issue is only newgrf ports
17:32:19 <DanMacK> Who was working on this?
17:32:36 <supermop> yeah, this was an idea for a newgrf as a stopgap that I thought i could make
17:33:32 <supermop> but if docks cannot yet show cargo, it seems it would be just as hard to implement as proper ports
17:34:39 <DanMacK> ISR tiles are a good stopgap though
17:35:01 <supermop> along the lines of pickles and cured meat we were discussing earlier
17:35:24 <andythenorth> anyone got 5 mins to kill and wants to help an easy FIRS task?
17:35:37 <supermop> tea and coffee would make other good cargos for an early industrial cargo
17:36:14 <planetmaker> especially salt. And spice.
17:36:14 <supermop> i have 5 minutes, but i am sure i cannot help
17:36:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth: define "easy" and "task"
17:36:44 * DanMacK is thinking of a "very" early idea
17:36:52 <supermop> Spice, spice supplies
17:37:21 <planetmaker> DanMacK: that would need road types
17:37:26 <supermop> sandworm pulled trams in heqs
17:37:29 <planetmaker> type: 'sand dunes'
17:43:15 <supermop> or sand instead of water, with worms in FISH
17:44:18 <andythenorth> I need to know what other industries have a similar issue to this one:
17:44:20 <planetmaker> should be moderately easy
17:44:36 <andythenorth> i.e. described in t, but actually in l, crates etc
17:45:29 <andythenorth> checked in game, or by looking in the string files
17:56:59 <__ln__> we even used to have the Muad'Dib on the channel in the past
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18:03:39 * DanMacK wants to do a grf with very early industries and mules/horses and such
18:07:51 <Eddi|zuHause> DanMacK: ECS with way downscaled industries, and "mules" instead of "vehicles"? :)
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18:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> DanMacK: or a "settlers" economy grain->food->ore->tools?
18:10:49 <DanMacK> "Ox Cart" is the heavy-duty cargo hauler :P
18:11:13 <andythenorth> back to drawing MacKellar!
18:11:17 <andythenorth> stop having ideas :D
18:12:27 * planetmaker hands mouse, colours, a few blank sheets of drawing paper, a comfy chair, servers a few cookies and supplies a few beverages and then locks the cubicle's door. *click*
18:12:48 <planetmaker> no, really, no stress! :-P
18:13:07 <planetmaker> but you won't get out before this is full of AWESOME sprites! ;-)
18:13:21 <planetmaker> does that work also for you, andythenorth ?
18:13:27 <Vikthor> hey, don't be so cruel give him at least a tablet :)
18:13:27 <planetmaker> I mean... on you?
18:16:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what am I supposed to be shipping?
18:16:28 <andythenorth> or do you mean the 'less ideas' part?
18:16:47 <planetmaker> nah, I meant the 'get drawing' part ;-)
18:17:02 <planetmaker> well... ore mine?
18:17:39 <andythenorth> yeah, that and my other 92 FIRS tickets :)
18:17:57 <andythenorth> but willing volunteers seem to be lacking today
18:18:14 <planetmaker> meh... that sounds annoying and tedious
18:18:30 <andythenorth> just change the strings...
18:18:40 <andythenorth> but I bet there are many more industries where that applies
18:19:06 <planetmaker> well. The industry works (internally) always with units and doesn't care about weight, right?
18:19:35 <planetmaker> So if a unit weighs 100kg, a 30 unit wagon will ship 3t, right, but the industry will use 30 units?
18:19:39 <planetmaker> then adopt the string
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18:20:10 <andythenorth> to refer to units?
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18:41:48 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22065 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4500]: pool allocation checks triggered when towns could not be built
18:45:18 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22066 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4502]: building a statue did not check whether the object pool is full
19:00:00 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I might just reject that crates / t / liters ticket :P
19:00:17 <andythenorth> it's a headache to make right :)
19:01:32 <Ammler> move it to version "unplanned"
19:03:35 <supermop> sure, but i think most people could make an educated guess
19:05:50 <andythenorth> should go in the readme perhaps
19:06:34 <supermop> probably do not need to describe what milk or steel are either...
19:06:53 <andythenorth> plant fibres is a bit more...unusual
19:07:39 <supermop> but not as mysterious as say, supplies,
19:07:54 <supermop> but people seem to accept that supplies go where they do
19:08:32 <TruePikachu> All loaded in the same kind of car
19:08:53 * TruePikachu puts meat on flatcars and lumber in refrigerator cars ;)
19:10:38 <Nite> i do not accept "supplies" no no ...
19:12:43 <Nite> you can easily tell where supplies go because of the prefix (farm etc) but can hardly tell who supplies the right supplies
19:12:54 <DanMacK> "Stuff" makes "Things"
19:13:22 <TruePikachu> What about "Objects"?
19:15:22 <TruePikachu> Equipment <-- actually, that one can make sense
19:16:09 <Nite> but still they could be anything
19:16:28 <TruePikachu> "Components" can be for i.e. electronics
19:16:46 <Nite> think of what supplies a farm needs and choose the most common
19:16:49 <TruePikachu> "Equipment" is best as being machinery needed to produce something
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19:17:32 <TruePikachu> Tractor <-- there
19:17:35 <planetmaker> we should go back to "primary stuff" and "secondary stuff". All pain gone
19:18:48 <TruePikachu> Tractors, seeds, feed(s), workers, animals, land (bit hard to package), fertilizer, etc.
19:19:48 <TruePikachu> Permutations of Atoms
19:21:11 <Nite> i wonder why transporting "land" is not very common *LO*
19:21:21 <andythenorth> it is in HEQS :P
19:21:34 <andythenorth> FIRS had components
19:21:41 <andythenorth> it seemed smart, but wasn't
19:21:49 <planetmaker> fertilizer hardly qualifies as farm equipment
19:22:08 <andythenorth> what are we talking about?
19:22:42 <Nite> all umbrella terms are bad
19:22:42 <TruePikachu> %^@# 101.haydn.openttdcoop.org !!!
19:22:48 <andythenorth> are we fooling, or is one of you trying to make something?
19:23:16 <TruePikachu> Well, for farms, I'm for "Tractors", as they are the stereotypical farm equipment
19:24:06 <Nite> well farms mostly need "food" fro their animals trnasport hay and strow between them, and need fertilizer ... and some vehicles
19:24:18 <TruePikachu> When you think of farms (here in the US), you generally think of a red barn with a silo to the right, farm animals, and a tractor
19:24:30 <Nite> you just do not want fertilizer and vehicles because it is in ECS already
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19:25:04 <TruePikachu> Tractors specifically for farms
19:25:14 <andythenorth> what are you designing?
19:25:25 * TruePikachu actually doesn't know
19:25:36 <TruePikachu> ^^ what Nite said
19:26:09 <Nite> well we are designing implements
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19:29:31 <Nite> "useless clutter vector"
19:29:53 <andythenorth> we did discuss a long time the uses of products from sewage farm
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19:59:56 <TGYoshi> heightening a part water is expensive
20:00:05 * Rubidium has no conclusive evidence to prove that, or to disprove it
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20:01:53 <TGYoshi> My company is worth 2 euro's.
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21:07:43 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22067 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix: don't hold a mutex when sending packets and thus possibly closing the connection as that wants to acquire the mutex again
21:09:57 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22068 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp.cpp core/tcp.h network_server.cpp): -Codechange/Fix: return "connection lost" instead of "okay" when SendPackets closed the connection
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21:16:47 <thomas001> hi, i am a bit curious: are there any efforts to change world generation for openttd? somehow i really miss rivers in the generated maps
21:17:49 <thomas001> plenty have failed?
21:20:14 <Rubidium> and I won't spend time on it until there are graphics for openttd.grf
21:20:41 <Rubidium> or I'd actually say that those graphics are a prerequisite to getting any sort of automatically generated rivers on maps
21:24:42 <supermop> what graphics are you looking for Rubidium?
21:28:10 <Rubidium> can't you deduce that from the discussion?
21:29:47 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22069 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix: delete all savegame packets, not just the first one
21:29:54 <peter1138> i got distracted by other projects :p
21:31:09 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22070 /trunk/src/ (network/network_server.cpp openttd.cpp saveload/saveload.h): -Fix [FS#4503] (r21399): crashes when disconnecting after requesting the map
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21:40:57 <planetmaker> Rubidium: what's wrong with the ones in ogfxe_extra.grf?
21:42:54 <Rubidium> they don't use the original graphics' water pattern
21:43:01 <peter1138> making decent rivers is way harder than a couple of sprites...
21:43:58 <planetmaker> that's a simple copy&paste action...
21:44:46 <planetmaker> done in like 60 minutes even by such graphics-editing-impared as myself
21:45:08 <planetmaker> if it's just adopting the ogfxe - sprites to TTD colours
21:46:29 * Rubidium wonders why nobody I've "asked" has taken that approach
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21:49:35 <Rubidium> if we want intro games using rivers to look okay, then definitely
21:50:03 <peter1138> are they the rivers with rigidly straight edges?
21:50:24 <thomas001> it whould be nice if the terrain generator could also do some erosion and stuff (valleys cut in the landscape by rivers) :)
21:51:42 <peter1138> lots of things would be nice
21:51:46 <peter1138> do you feel up to it?
21:52:53 <thomas001> i whould like to, but i try to get my phd which takes A LOT time :(
21:53:08 <peter1138> you should prioritise the quick jobs first
21:53:30 <thomas001> but then long run jobs might never get finished
21:54:05 <thomas001> but i see you argument, sorry for only demanding things
21:54:35 <Rubidium> well, the long running jobs get interrupted all the time
21:55:10 <Rubidium> where long is quite relative
21:55:55 <Rubidium> putting them at the front of the queue and NOT interrupting them, that is definitely impossible (for a long enough job)
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22:03:30 <andythenorth> so Bananannananaas doesn't have a 1.1.x field for newgrf compatibility
22:03:38 <andythenorth> I guess that's intentional?
22:04:13 <Rubidium> 1.1.0 would mark the stable release
22:09:21 <Terkhen> maybe I can try OpenTTD in ms-dos with it :)
22:10:43 <Terkhen> that's what the bios says
22:13:09 <Rubidium> ah, so basically second generation Pentium
22:13:32 <Rubidium> (but not third/fourth pro/mmx)
22:16:02 <glx> when I tried on my 133MMX it failed
22:16:34 <Terkhen> hmm... I think this has 100 MHz
22:17:52 <Terkhen> I'm cleaning it right now, booting it again in its current state is a risk :)
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23:02:57 <Wolf01> planetmaker, did you try OpenTTD for PSP?
23:03:17 <planetmaker> if you ship me one, I might
23:04:53 <Wolf01> if I find the memory stick adapter
23:04:58 <planetmaker> it's like stone age
23:07:16 <planetmaker> anyway, I guess I'll go to bed while you try shipping your PSD to me - after you found the memory stick adapter :-P
23:12:31 <Wolf01> nighty night planetmaker
continue to next day ⏵
