IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-02-11
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00:36:42 <TruePikachu> Lol @ company name
01:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> did we have a change-ish yet?
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06:19:02 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22055 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqcompiler.cpp: -Fix [FS#4490]: [Squirrel] some invalid squirrel code caused the squirrel compiler to crash
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08:17:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22056 /trunk/src/strings.cpp:
08:17:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4408]: metric and imperial HP are not the same. As imperial HP are used internally, set a conversion rate for metric HP
08:17:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Change: make the imperial HP to kW conversions a bit more precise
08:21:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like something MB once requested
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08:47:56 <planetmaker> I rather meant this !list person, but yeah :-)
08:50:15 <Rubidium> what he only did was request for him to remove a number of PS values from his choice list
08:51:02 <Rubidium> and I *really* hope that for each and every of his engines only $wished-1 and $wished+1 are available in metric HP ;)
08:56:54 <planetmaker> reading that task, it's just as silly to quote a price tag of 124.492€ - totally unrealistic
09:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> err... i hate to do this to you, but u have a different savegame that now crashes
09:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%202.%20Jan%201972.sav <-- this is one version of the savegame i previously uploaded
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09:16:10 <peter1138> Ravenholm Transport did you say?
09:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm missing an in-joke here, i'm afraid
09:33:51 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22057 /trunk/src/saveload/ (station_sl.cpp waypoint_sl.cpp): -Fix: waypoint conversion could (previously) silently overfill the pool and crash
09:34:12 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: works for me (tm)
09:34:13 <peter1138> silently crash, eh?
09:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Error: Assertion failed at line 127 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk/src/core/pool_func.hpp: this->checked != 0
09:34:52 <Eddi|zuHause> [10] bin/openttd(_Z27MoveWaypointsToBaseStationsv+0x219) [0x727fd9]
09:35:00 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: then I reckon you're not using HEAD
09:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i just svn up-ed
09:35:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i've not woken up yet
09:42:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Error: Assertion failed at line 1113 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk/src/economy.cpp: v->current_order.IsType(OT_LOADING) <-- wtf?
09:43:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Error: Assertion failed at line 1095 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk/src/economy.cpp: front_v->cargo_payment == NULL <- ???
09:45:03 <Rubidium> something is gloriously messed up there
09:45:30 <Rubidium> but I can't really help you with that as I'm not having the exact save dbsetxl and am missing a few NewGRFs
09:45:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the last one is the above savegame, unpaused
09:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the previous one is a newer version of that savegame, unpaused
09:46:14 <Rubidium> so what for me might be a wagon might be something else for you
09:46:30 <Rubidium> and I don't fancy chasing ghosts
09:46:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure what i screwed up in the dbset, but it can't be much...
09:47:01 <Eddi|zuHause> like a vehicle introduction date or something
09:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but it happens with a wide set of savegames from that series...
09:54:09 <Eddi|zuHause> a search/filter in the load window would be nice
09:55:02 <peter1138> i have loads of saves called "peter1138 transport ..."
09:55:09 <peter1138> not even all the same game :p
09:56:22 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that's why i started using the starting town name for the savegames ;)
09:58:39 <Eddi|zuHause> err... something is really weird... in gdb i can't get a useful backtrace, but the crashlog can
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10:23:44 <me84> well is any developer rigth here?
10:24:46 <planetmaker> we usually hide. Especially at those questions ;-)
10:24:49 <Eddi|zuHause> developers are very shy animals.
10:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you have to lure them out with an interesting question
10:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise they hide
10:25:59 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
10:26:49 <planetmaker> I guess I just learnt a new dorpsgek syntax ;-)
10:27:02 <me84> hrhr :) wasn't sure if this is only a enduser support channel ;)
10:27:18 <me84> well I need informations about the OPenTTD file format
10:27:39 <Noldo> savegames or newgrf files?
10:27:41 <me84> so anything related with scenario files and may be savegames
10:27:58 <me84> ok think I should provide some backgrounds
10:28:02 <planetmaker> that's the very same thing, just different file extension
10:28:24 <me84> there wasn't anything on the wiki that goes deep enough
10:28:44 <me84> where is the map of the city located?
10:28:52 <planetmaker> it's a chunk-based file format. Chunks change.
10:29:43 <Eddi|zuHause> me84: the file format is RIFF, with some compression applied
10:29:49 <Terkhen> what are you planning to do?
10:30:27 <me84> RIFF you say? No plan xD
10:30:58 <me84> I'm from the www.openstreetmap.org planet thats collecting datas for a free worldmap
10:31:22 <me84> and guess what I want to code an exporter to openTTD :D
10:31:35 <Terkhen> hmm... that would be nice, yes :)
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10:32:08 <me84> I hope so ;) but to be honest, I'm not a gamer and didn't played TTD yet :)
10:32:14 <planetmaker> he... Terkhen - that'd integrate in *some* new scenario format possibly :-P
10:32:20 <Eddi|zuHause> me84: what would be more interesting was an extension to the heightmap [image] loading that can encode roads, trees, rivers etc. in the png
10:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause> me84: you should not try to fiddle with the savegame/scenario file format
10:33:21 <Terkhen> ^ that's what I was going to say, a png format including that info could be interpreted by OpenTTD
10:33:23 <me84> well but that heightmap is what it supposed to be: storing height levels only, right?
10:33:58 <Rubidium> though... add a bit of metadata to it saying: heh, this is a special case PNG file
10:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause> me84: that's what heightmaps currently are, but interpreting additional data might be useful.
10:34:12 <Rubidium> and then you have 1 colour channel for height, and 3 remain for other stuff
10:34:27 <Rubidium> not to mention that you can add all kinds of arbitrary (metadata) to a PNG file
10:34:41 <Rubidium> e.g. OpenTTD adds its version and NewGRF settings to the screenshot PNGs
10:34:51 <me84> but this is just an idea or thecurrent state of the art?
10:35:21 <Rubidium> the stuff about the screenshot is current, the rest is an idea
10:35:22 <Eddi|zuHause> me84: current state is heightmap is heights only. the other things are dreams.
10:35:41 <me84> ok so lets forget about that :)
10:36:14 <Rubidium> though my idea sounds like something that might be interesting for 1.2
10:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> me84: common request is list of town locations, names and (approximate) size
10:36:46 <Eddi|zuHause> this is a use for metadata (or additional text file)
10:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> me84: the other common request is rivers (or roads, or trees, or other tile-based stuff)
10:37:12 <me84> so how does the generator store the city at the moment? RIFF?
10:37:17 <Eddi|zuHause> this would be a use for other colour channels
10:37:21 <Noldo> Eddi, soon you will have the whole savegame in png metadata
10:38:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: yes, essentially you end up with a (reduced) scenario where you leave some options to the game creation, like adding newgrfs and stuff
10:38:41 <me84> well just one moment folks :)
10:39:01 <me84> so riff is a standart to embed chunks into a single container, right?
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10:41:56 <me84> yes still reading the same :)
10:42:34 <me84> so and oTTD has custom chunks? Is that the same like the original TTD? for legacy reasons?
10:43:35 <Terkhen> the chunk format can change between different OpenTTD versions, but it can load older savegame versions
10:45:17 <Terkhen> but as Eddi pointed the savegame also stores a lot of stuff that is specific to that game (settings, NewGRF selections), so if you use the existing savegame format you will be creating very specific savegames instead of something generic
10:45:53 <me84> yes alright but I can just use whats already there :)
10:46:53 <Eddi|zuHause> me84: i really think "enriched" heightmap is the way to go, not exporting a savegame file...
10:47:54 <Terkhen> no, I don't think the savegame format is intended for external modification, as I said it includes too much information that you won't be able to deal with unless you have all the information the game uses (house position, house state, internal state of the town and so on)
10:49:37 <me84> didn't find any strategic 2D game that fits :/
10:51:48 <me84> Has anybody an idea for a good portable 2D platform game that would benefit from external scenarios?
10:53:14 <Terkhen> I'm currently working on something to convert a savegame to a "generic" scenario; saving that information would come later but it would probably use a png with additional data
10:53:44 <Terkhen> (if everything fits, which I'm not sure if it is possible)
10:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what kind of infrastructure you want to allow. NewObjects would be a bit non-trivial
10:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd leave all player-owned structures like rails and stations completely out
10:56:26 <Terkhen> currently the plan is to start by removing all company owned property, yes
10:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> industries may be very tricky
10:56:54 <me84> ok, thnks for your informations folks
10:57:06 <me84> oh and for the great game, of course :)
10:57:10 <Eddi|zuHause> me84: come back in half a year
10:57:23 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we have a proper system by then ;)
10:57:44 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: then it would remove towns, industries and objects storing some info about them, apply the new settings/newgrfs and restore towns, industries and objects
10:58:17 <Terkhen> for towns this is straightforward, for objects I was told that I could use their object class, and for industries initially it will just create a random one
10:58:43 <Terkhen> as a method for placing a industry of the "correct" type that works for all NewGRFs is far from trivial
10:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: might use input/output cargo
10:59:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and pick something random if the cargo doesn't exist
11:00:02 <Terkhen> we thought about taking into account the industry production flag and the input/output cargo to generate a measurement of how similar two industries are
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11:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so... anyone has a bright idea about remote controlling excel from a python script?
11:16:22 <Eddi|zuHause> like telling it to close a file?
11:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't suppose there is a microsoft equivalent of dbus ;)
11:21:18 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, if you can istantiate an excel workbook, you should be able to control all aspects of it
11:25:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i mean, when my python script creates a workbook, and i want to save it, the file may not be open in excel
11:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: so excel must be told to close it
11:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: and possibly reload it afterwards
11:26:44 <Wolf01> when you instantiate the workbook, the excel should not open, it does it when you tell excel to create the workbook
11:27:52 <Wolf01> or you need to show the workbook when you are working on it?
11:28:09 <dihedral> why people engage in the shouters thread, i do not know :-P
11:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i create a workbook, save it, and open it in excel. later i create an updated workbook, want to save it, and want to automatically close the existing old workbook
11:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: saving while the workbook is open in excel results in permission denied
11:32:34 <Wolf01> you might need to use some hooks to get the excel window which contains your workbook
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11:35:00 <Wolf01> you might need to browse the MDI libraries
11:44:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: it was already rumored that something like that would happen.
11:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: i guess the only sensible thing to do now for nokia would be to port qt to windows phone 7
11:45:39 <Terkhen> I guess so, but I wonder if multiplatform support will suffer (as usually happens with anything too attached to windows)
12:10:20 <peter1138> load average: 23.21, 27.21, 23.60
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12:12:13 <peter1138> anyone used customvalidators in asp.net?
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12:24:26 <SmatZ> one of MS requirements I guess
12:24:42 <peter1138> doubt it. ms would rather everyone used their own api
12:25:11 <peter1138> okay... page url and page content don't match
12:25:50 <peter1138> "out" as in "not happening" rather than "released"
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13:19:42 <planetmaker> loool. Some people are just a bit too thick: This whole building is offices and a few labs and lecture halls. Some random student just asks a collegue "Excuse me, where please is the office?"
13:19:59 <planetmaker> when walking into his office...
13:20:18 <andythenorth> well, university is for educating people
13:20:24 <andythenorth> maybe some need more education than others
13:20:44 <andythenorth> doing this in nfo is going to suck
13:20:54 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
13:21:28 <andythenorth> I need 24 action 2s for each tile :o
13:21:28 <planetmaker> "which office?" - "my tutor's office" - "well, who's your tutor" - "oh, the young blonde one" - "uhm... and the name?" - "uhm... dunno. For physics 101" - "... ... did you check the photo chart down the hall next to the elevator?"
13:21:44 <andythenorth> I can discard about half of the options though
13:21:54 <andythenorth> tiles don't need fences on 4 sides in any case
13:23:10 <andythenorth> I need 13 action 2s per tile :o
13:23:19 <andythenorth> and another one for the case of no fences
13:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> something's wrong... i have to enable caps to write in lower case?!?
13:24:32 <andythenorth> so the Lumber Yard currently has 9 tiles
13:25:14 <andythenorth> I need to define another 112 action 2s to fence the lumber yard :)
13:25:24 <planetmaker> what about var 7E and using offsets +/-1 ?
13:26:07 <andythenorth> the cement plant also has 9 main tiles
13:26:11 <andythenorth> but then there is animated smoke
13:26:50 <andythenorth> and an animated kiln which will need about 6 tiles
13:26:55 <planetmaker> btw... did you spend at least *some* thought on your industries' substitute types?
13:27:02 <planetmaker> or is the utter bullshit?
13:27:12 <andythenorth> in what respect?
13:27:24 <planetmaker> in the respect as everything maps to coal mine or so
13:27:38 <andythenorth> foobar wrote that
13:27:40 <planetmaker> or does it make *some* sense as in farms map to farm etc
13:27:53 <planetmaker> uhm... you introduced new industries, didn't you?
13:28:06 <planetmaker> so you must have done that already
13:28:06 <andythenorth> yeah, but when defining a new type, it's a new type
13:31:00 <andythenorth> they're all using IND_NULL
13:31:04 <andythenorth> which maps to...
13:31:44 <andythenorth> I don't suppose it matters
13:31:53 <andythenorth> I wonder what happens if prop 08 is omitted?
13:32:31 <andythenorth> I will run out of IDs for cement plant action 2s :(
13:32:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth, it doesn't matter. Now. But let's say: It'd be interesting if they gave a good idea of what type of industry it is :-)
13:32:47 <andythenorth> I'll have to use branching action 2s so I can repeat IDs :(
13:32:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: explain a bit more?
13:33:42 <planetmaker> it might open a path to swap an industry set in a meaningful way on scenarios
13:33:56 <andythenorth> I would be very dubious about that
13:34:13 <andythenorth> I can see the purpose, but it would need a different approach
13:34:25 <planetmaker> The alternative is to throw away the scenario you spent hours designing
13:34:30 <andythenorth> you mean change newgrfs?
13:34:41 <andythenorth> it'll just explode
13:34:46 <andythenorth> there's way too much stored in the tiles
13:34:55 <planetmaker> No tile information
13:35:06 <planetmaker> Just replacement type. No more info
13:35:07 <Terkhen> andythenorth: remove all towns/industries/objects from a existing map, store their locations and some additional info, apply new NewGRFs and recreate the towns/industries/objects
13:35:23 <andythenorth> yeah - that would be the different approach I had in mind
13:35:35 <planetmaker> but that's not different from what I asked ;-)
13:35:54 <andythenorth> I made certain...assumptions about your approach
13:36:07 <andythenorth> which may have been mistaken
13:36:18 <andythenorth> I can't think of a reliable way to do this
13:36:35 <andythenorth> there is no single mapping I can think of
13:36:47 <planetmaker> simplest way: just get industry locations. But maybe the type is interesting. And the only somewhat reliable cross-grf info there is are "cargo similarity" and "replacement type"
13:36:54 <andythenorth> an industry type in one set doesn't map to different types in other sets
13:37:02 <andythenorth> it only maps to equivalent types in other sets
13:37:02 <planetmaker> there is nor can be a single mapping. But that's irrelevant nor intended
13:37:18 <andythenorth> I would just delete them and reseed the map
13:37:30 <andythenorth> I have an alternative idea
13:37:34 <andythenorth> and I think it's actually workable
13:37:37 <planetmaker> that's not desirable on a crafted scenario to re-do all work
13:37:56 <andythenorth> store industry seed points in the map
13:37:57 <planetmaker> it may be, but possibly not always :-)
13:38:02 <planetmaker> oh, no, it doesn't
13:38:09 <planetmaker> as each industry set acts differently
13:38:29 <planetmaker> seed = 1 random number. At least within openttd
13:38:46 <planetmaker> except you mean the location. But that's more primitive than keeping somewhat the type
13:38:52 <andythenorth> I mean the spawn point
13:38:56 <andythenorth> and possibly more information
13:38:57 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22058 /trunk/src/saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp: -Fix (r22050): removing broken orders happened before the "front engine" conversion was done for road vehicles, so road vehicles didn't have orders anymore
13:39:11 <andythenorth> could map across a range of possibilities: cargos; production type
13:39:24 <andythenorth> but industry cb28 stuff would have to be ignored in scenario editor
13:39:30 <andythenorth> it should be anyway IMO, if not already
13:40:00 <andythenorth> it would need a new tile type, and a GUI
13:40:06 <andythenorth> and - this is the horrible part
13:40:12 <planetmaker> well: my only question was: does FIRS supply useful data on a possible replacement when e.g. FIRS is removed from the game (that's what property 08 is about)
13:40:27 <andythenorth> my idea would need a maintained list of all possible cargos in industry sets :(
13:40:40 <andythenorth> planetmaker: no FIRS doesn't ;)
13:40:45 <andythenorth> it couldn't really
13:40:57 <andythenorth> maybe mappings could be invented
13:41:04 <andythenorth> what does dredging site map to?
13:41:10 <planetmaker> it will be crude. ^
13:41:28 <andythenorth> ore mine on water?
13:41:30 <Terkhen> the most complicated corner case is the fishing grounds
13:41:32 <planetmaker> but possibly oil rig :-)
13:41:45 <andythenorth> fishing grounds is oil rig
13:41:58 <andythenorth> bear in mind also you would need climate translation
13:42:18 <planetmaker> all original types are unique
13:42:31 <andythenorth> so action 7 for every FIRS industry prop 08?
13:42:52 <planetmaker> no. You could use a substitute irrespective of the climate
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13:43:07 <planetmaker> by just putting in the number?
13:43:15 <andythenorth> if I map glass works to factory using 06h for prop 08
13:43:23 <andythenorth> and you've got an arctic map
13:43:29 <andythenorth> the industry breaks?
13:43:36 <planetmaker> it just won't be re-created
13:43:59 <planetmaker> or a temperate factory placed. Use the climate cheat and you can do that even now.
13:44:04 <planetmaker> So nothing which breaks hard
13:44:15 <andythenorth> so maybe 2/3 of the industries disappear depending on the climate?
13:44:43 <planetmaker> but might happen. So what
13:45:08 <planetmaker> well: many industries are shared across climates
13:45:21 <planetmaker> so 2/3 is not a good guess ;-)
13:45:22 <andythenorth> not across all three
13:46:07 <andythenorth> not coal mine or ore mine
13:46:11 <andythenorth> or steel mill or factory
13:46:44 <andythenorth> anyway, I wouldn't object to it being changed in FIRS
13:46:49 <andythenorth> it's simply some new defines
13:46:56 <planetmaker> if that bothers you openttd could internally re-map them to the appropriate climate's equivalent
13:47:02 <planetmaker> so not really _the_ issue
13:47:08 <andythenorth> there's no point me arguing the case - I won't use it, and I have no objections to it :)
13:47:20 <andythenorth> if you want to do it, feel free ;)
13:47:33 <andythenorth> I'm just arguing for arguing probably
13:47:45 <andythenorth> am I thinking about fences wrong?
13:47:51 <andythenorth> sometimes I get stuck on the hard way
13:48:02 <andythenorth> like with 1 tile buffers
13:48:09 <andythenorth> I tried to patch those for ages, then it was simple nfo
13:49:10 <andythenorth> I don't think coding hundreds of action 2s per industry is worth the effort to have fences show
13:49:37 <planetmaker> if templated sufficiently?
13:50:52 <andythenorth> it's already branching for snow and animation, and sometimes ground tile terrain
13:51:06 <andythenorth> I'd be worried about adding another lot of branches
13:53:05 * andythenorth considers a pathological case
13:53:15 <andythenorth> animated, terrain aware, with fences
13:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> animations are overrated
13:53:44 <andythenorth> each industry tile might need 420 action 2s
13:53:52 <andythenorth> which could be assembled by cpp
13:54:32 <andythenorth> is there a sprite limit per newgrf?
13:54:41 <andythenorth> action 2s , not real sprites
13:55:24 <andythenorth> well at least the number of lines of code would be impressive :P
13:56:53 <andythenorth> if there was a callback to draw fences, I would need to add one include per industry
13:57:05 <andythenorth> and it might contain just one advanced varaction 2
14:00:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so... add a callback :)
14:00:31 <andythenorth> I started looking last night
14:00:44 <andythenorth> but I can't see how to append / splice into a newgrf sprite group
14:01:06 * andythenorth experiments a little more
14:21:51 * andythenorth is a bit puzzled
14:22:27 <andythenorth> ti->x and ti->y don't seem to have a consistent origin wrt to the tile
14:23:13 <andythenorth> i.e. if I draw a sprite at ti->x, ti->y, sometimes it's in the centre of the sprite, sometimes left hand corder
14:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the sprite's xrel/yrel?
14:24:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really think i know anything about this
14:24:59 <andythenorth> I guess there's something in the bounding box causing this
14:26:22 <andythenorth> i also don't know how to tell the sorter to draw this higher in the layers than the industry
14:26:33 <andythenorth> in a 2D system that would be z index
14:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that what bounding boxes are supposed to do?
14:28:01 <andythenorth> the code for viewport is really well documented :D
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14:30:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i need to buy stuff, but i can't be bothered getting up... :(
14:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> on a separate note: what is a good program for editing PDFs on linux?
14:34:10 * andythenorth gets a better result for fences
14:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe you can salvage some drawing code from the railway fences?
14:37:05 <andythenorth> the next issue is figuring out how to tell the sorter to draw fences above the industry
14:40:55 <andythenorth> I guess I need to use DrawSortableSprite
14:41:04 <andythenorth> which is what I'm currently using
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14:42:37 <andythenorth> oops AddSortableSpriteToDraw
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14:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause> something's wrong with snowyness of waypoints
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14:56:58 <Eddi|zuHause> bäääh... black-wet-thing-that-makes-miau!!
14:57:47 <planetmaker> does that ever get wet? I thought they were geniuses in avoiding that...
14:58:54 <andythenorth> well at least I learnt how to draw fences in code :)
14:59:02 <andythenorth> and some industries definitely look better with fences
14:59:12 <Eddi|zuHause> compare the waypoints in these two images: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2012.%20Mai%1939.png and www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2028.%20Apr%1988.png
14:59:15 <andythenorth> but I can't figure out the sprite sorting
14:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> compare the waypoints in these two images: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2012.%20Mai%201939.png and www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2028.%20Apr%201988.png
15:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... still something wrong
15:01:14 <Wolf01> call them wp1 and wp2 :P
15:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> na, it's alright
15:02:15 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, are they default waypoints?
15:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, newstations
15:02:39 <planetmaker> then it most probable is their fault
15:02:53 <planetmaker> or did that behaviour change?
15:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, it worked before. only openttd changed.
15:03:20 <planetmaker> then it's probably ottd's fault ;-)
15:04:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's the same waypoint, once with a 0.7-ish era nightly, and once with a current nightly
15:05:20 <Eddi|zuHause> could be 0.6-ish even
15:07:41 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: seems you are missing some newgrfs
15:07:49 <SmatZ> so the behaviour can be quite random
15:08:00 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: what? where?
15:08:12 <SmatZ> or, no... you added a newgrf :)
15:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a static grf
15:08:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i added newbridges, because combroads fails with broken sprite
15:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but that has nothing to do with the waypoint
15:09:47 <Eddi|zuHause> [11.02.2011 10:03] <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%202.%20Jan%201972.sav <-- this is one version of the savegame i previously uploaded
15:10:33 <Eddi|zuHause> need really current trunk to load it ;)
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15:12:39 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I missed the first link :-) - I see
15:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and i purposely added a separating word between them, and said it were two. to make it more noticeable that there are two!!
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15:18:34 <V453000> what is a possible cause of an error, that says "22 corrupted files" about by original_windows music set? I stronly doubt that it would be the files, since they work on other computer ... could there be some other "hidden" files or something else? :o
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15:21:14 <planetmaker> did you make sure that they bear the same name and really are binary the same?
15:22:01 <V453000> the files come from the same .rar and the binaries are the same :)
15:22:10 <Wolf01> Belugas, no you aren't
15:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: the game uses md5sum to compare the files
15:26:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "crazy" is the word you search
15:27:32 <Belugas> that is punishable by the heaviest penalty!
15:27:44 <Belugas> but... i guess you are kinda right
15:27:48 <peter1138> yeah we'll force you to listen to...
15:30:39 <Belugas> to the Bloody Time Zones - Merged Pieces!!
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16:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "Hans Reiser wants to sell his story. To raise money for cloning his wife." lmao :p
16:54:16 <supermop> my hard drive joke fell flat...
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17:19:25 <WargH> Good eaving. I was just wondering about that autorenew feature. Does it only work if I have a depot at the end of a station or if I add an order for my trains to go past a depot?
17:20:18 <planetmaker> they would need a reason to visit a depot, yes. That may be in the course of the normal maintenance or could be a forced depot order
17:20:27 <planetmaker> They won't go to a depot just for autorenew
17:21:19 <planetmaker> That is: if they don't visit depots regularily... they won't autorenew
17:21:49 <planetmaker> it also works with "service when needed" and a depot anywhere on the line
17:21:58 <planetmaker> no need for special constructions
17:22:17 <WargH> Too bad, that doesn't really fit my playstyle. I mostly do stations that are passed through and I have maintenace off.
17:22:39 <planetmaker> then you have no need to autorenew either
17:22:53 <planetmaker> as I assume you play without break downs
17:23:29 <planetmaker> autorenew is a genuine maintenance task, thus if you play without that, you play without autorenew
17:23:47 <WargH> Ah, right. I switched all trains as soon as they got old, ofc I wouldn't have to when I play without breakdowns
17:24:03 <WargH> I didn't really think of that
17:24:48 <WargH> I'm so far into my game now that half my time was taken up by switching engines.
17:25:08 <WargH> Lesson learnt. Thank you
17:25:47 <planetmaker> hello andythenorth
17:26:59 <planetmaker> WargH: mind that auto_replace_ works in a similar manner - and that might come in handy when playing w/o breakdowns
17:28:34 * andythenorth ponders various FIRS 'to-dos'
17:28:55 <Rubidium> andythenorth: converting the graphics to the DOS palette?
17:29:07 <andythenorth> I've been worrying about that
17:29:12 <andythenorth> what's the benefit?
17:29:36 <Rubidium> more logical palette
17:30:20 <andythenorth> does anything break if switching from windows to DOS?
17:30:26 <andythenorth> i.e. do I have to remap any colours?
17:30:52 <Rubidium> if you have custom remaps, then you might need to fix those
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17:32:51 <supermop> is the dos pallette still used outside of people playing on Dos?
17:33:23 <andythenorth> I don't use remaps :)
17:33:28 <Rubidium> supermop: what version of OpenTTD are you using?
17:34:31 <supermop> but i haven't played in months
17:35:09 <Rubidium> in any case, openttd.grf is DOS paletted
17:35:26 <supermop> I guess 1.0.3 something, and an old version of chill patch pack,
17:35:34 <supermop> not at home so cannpt check
17:35:37 <Rubidium> so everyone using a recent OpenTTD with the original graphics (DOS or Windows) uses a DOS paletted GRF
17:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: technically, the DOS palette is the better one
17:36:11 <supermop> i don't doubt it, having looked at both when i started drawing
17:36:20 <supermop> I just assumed I was not supposed to use it
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17:37:22 <WargH> Autoreplace presents a problem. If I change manually in a depot I can switch to Asiastar (165mph) but if I try thru the autoreplace the only train avaliable seems to be a train at 110mph
17:38:01 <planetmaker> WargH: switch to electrical engines ;-)
17:38:30 <planetmaker> the window somewhere has a button for that
17:38:52 <Eddi|zuHause> [11.02.2011 18:21] <planetmaker> That is: if they don't visit depots regularily... they won't autorenew <-- trains do still go to depot for autoreplace/-renew even if breakdowns and servicing are off. they need to have a depot along their route or a depot order, though.
17:39:28 <planetmaker> hm, I guess I use it to seldom then :-)
17:39:39 <Wolf01> I think is harder to get that, I found it difficult to upgrade from very low speed tracks to medium speed electric ones because the list changed every time
17:39:47 <WargH> Really Eddi? I tried using it and nothing happened
17:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> WargH: they don't do it immediately. they only check when the service interval is due
17:40:56 <WargH> Ok, but that's set to 150 days and I waited for two years.
17:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> WargH: then your depot was probably too far away or something
17:42:11 <WargH> planetmaker: I use the same rail for diesel and electric. And when I choose rail vehicles I can only choose SH 40 110 mph
17:42:39 <WargH> Eddi|zuHause: , I'll try it out now
17:45:13 <WargH> I'm at year 2079, I used the option that old vehicles dissapear until it was only sh 40 and Asiastar ledt, then I turned it of so I didn't have to have so many engines in the list. Maybe the autoreplace still loses the engine?
17:49:38 <devilsadvocate_> which is the grf which has speed variations in tracks?
17:49:50 <devilsadvocate_> i used to play with it, but i cant seem to find it now
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17:50:26 <WargH> Somthing is wrong with autoreplace at least. I miss a train for Maglev and one for Monorail also.
17:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> devilsadvocate_: you knoq you can input "tracks" in the search field?
17:53:32 <devilsadvocate_> Eddi|zuHause: found it. thanks :P
17:54:17 <planetmaker> WargH: you cannot autoreplace accross different, incompatible rail types.
17:54:30 <planetmaker> Thus you'll hardly be able to autoreplace rail -> monorail -> maglev
17:54:43 <planetmaker> Likewise you cannot replace a ship by a ship
17:54:53 <planetmaker> uhm. A ship by a plane
17:56:16 <WargH> I know that. That wasn't what I was saying. I just noticed that regular rail wasn't the only type missing engines in the menu
17:56:21 <WargH> Eddi|zuHause: It worked
17:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what if i want to replace a hovercraft by an airship? they both have to do with air, so they must be compatible
18:01:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: then you need to install a newgrf with compatible "airtypes" :-P
18:02:19 <andythenorth> I'll do that when I finish roadtypes
18:02:24 <andythenorth> which is maybe never
18:02:30 <andythenorth> as I have 0 commits so far :P
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18:07:32 <WargH> Thank you for your help Eddi|zuHause.
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18:42:34 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22059 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r21179): Make the send chat message window follow the position of the status bar.
18:46:56 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22060 /trunk/src/lang/ (arabic_egypt.txt hungarian.txt spanish.txt):
18:46:56 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:56 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 46 changes by Company_director
18:46:56 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: hungarian - 20 changes by IPG
18:46:56 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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19:19:42 <andythenorth> I need a tile animation trigger that is called once on construction and once only
19:20:03 <andythenorth> so I can advance animation a random number of frames
19:20:23 <andythenorth> any suggestions?
19:21:18 <planetmaker> ho.. industries, not houses ;-)
19:22:07 <andythenorth> I thought I could use construction state change, but I don't think it fires for industries placed at map gen
19:22:59 <andythenorth> I could put an offset in persistent storage of the industry, then set it to 0 the first time the animation uses it
19:23:39 <andythenorth> that would mean abusing cb14B quite horribly
19:23:42 <andythenorth> and would have complications
19:25:31 <andythenorth> there's already quite a lot of spec for animation control
19:25:40 <andythenorth> I think I'm missing the obvious somewhere :|
19:30:54 <andythenorth> I can use cb26 and maybe write a flag into persistent storage in the industry
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19:33:05 <andythenorth> the documentation of industry tile var 40 is somewhat crappy
19:35:13 <andythenorth> I can't figure out how construction stages work from src
19:35:32 <andythenorth> but I did just learn that default industry smoke uses an effect vehicle :o
19:35:41 <andythenorth> could newgrf industries also use effect vehicles?
19:37:28 * andythenorth is embarrassed to be typing monologue again :P
19:37:47 <planetmaker> Then you don't need to use persistant storage
19:38:05 <planetmaker> like check animation stage and use in n-1 cases the same ;-)
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19:40:27 <andythenorth> that's the kind of thing I'm looking for
19:41:55 <Yexo> andythenorth: what are you trying to achieve? an animation trigger that fires only once can be emulated with cb 26 returning FF (= stop animation)
19:42:15 <andythenorth> I want to stop all the industries smoke being synchronised
19:42:30 <andythenorth> so I want to offset each industries animation by a random number of frames
19:43:00 <andythenorth> same will apply to, e.g. quarries - if all cranes will operate in sync, will look silly :)
19:43:04 <Yexo> cb 25 with trigger "construction stage changes", return value: random?
19:43:23 <andythenorth> do construction states change for industries placed by map gen?
19:43:27 <andythenorth> I've read src, but can't tell
19:43:47 <Yexo> map gen = same as normal map, first place industries and after that run the tileloop for a while
19:44:04 <Yexo> oh, construction state is an industry thing, not a tile thing, so not sure
19:44:17 <andythenorth> construction stages is industry tiles
19:44:28 <andythenorth> or at least, they have hooks for it
19:44:39 <andythenorth> if it works, it works
19:46:42 <Yexo> judging from the code it should work
19:47:09 <andythenorth> one way to find out...
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20:01:58 * andythenorth considers FIRS industry sound effects
20:05:22 <Yexo> lots of work, it'll be hard to find people to provide the sounds, unless you plan on creating / searching for them yourself
20:10:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth: save it for the given reasons for >1.0
20:10:51 <Belugas> i can provide sounds!
20:10:57 <planetmaker> it's been a big pain to gather a whole set of sounds for OpenSFX
20:11:10 <planetmaker> well... ^ we'll take you by the word
20:11:17 <Belugas> my wife said i'm doing too much noise
20:11:47 <planetmaker> same or other incident?
20:12:16 <Belugas> as soon as i pick my guitar :)
20:12:22 <Belugas> including THAT incident ;)
20:14:43 <Belugas> honestly, i don't care :)
20:14:51 <Belugas> i know i'll have my studio in the basement
20:15:02 <Belugas> so... just a matter of waiting ;)
20:15:17 <Belugas> but hey... my son likes my noises ;)
20:15:25 <planetmaker> :-) How's your basement doing?
20:15:54 <Belugas> currently, i'm still removing the last walls, preparing the electricity and stuff like that
20:16:04 <Belugas> i've not yet started to make the floor
20:16:12 <andythenorth> I don't mind gathering sounds for FIRS
20:16:21 <andythenorth> but I wonder if it's worth it
20:16:21 <Belugas> i hope i'llbe done with the floor for Easter
20:16:26 <andythenorth> I play with sound off :P
20:16:37 <andythenorth> mostly due to annoying crossing bells :D
20:16:38 <Belugas> andythenorth, then don't :)
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20:55:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22061 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Change: when loading old savegames with long trains set the maximum train length to the length of the longest train
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21:14:52 <andythenorth> why are presets considered to be the solution to 'too many settings'
21:15:00 * andythenorth rants at fricking stupidity
21:19:07 <DanMacK> Two constants in the universe...
21:20:17 <Rubidium> andythenorth: because n settings is too much, you just simplify it by adding one setting with 2**n (or more) possibilities
21:20:26 <Wolf01> one is 42, the other is stupidity?
21:23:09 <andythenorth> Rubidium: give me commit rights, I'll delete n/2 settings, and players can blame me :P
21:23:43 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: What are you, a GNOME dev?
21:25:42 <Terkhen> that's a good idea, we could start adding (patch by andythenorth) to unpopular commits
21:27:42 <andythenorth> or - just say 'sorry, there was an unretrievable problem with svn, and some stuff is lost for ever'
21:30:39 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22062 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix: memory leak when saving fails mid-way
21:33:33 <andythenorth> Rubidium: xml does seem sane
21:34:11 <andythenorth> it's just easy enough for users to edit it and feel l33t
21:34:34 <andythenorth> when OS X was released, there were lots of tip sites about editing prefs to 'unlock hidden features'
21:47:49 * andythenorth does puzzle about random bits
21:52:00 <andythenorth> I need a range of ~7 from the random bits in cb25
21:52:07 <andythenorth> what mask do I set?
21:52:46 <andythenorth> I thought there was more to it than that
21:53:01 <andythenorth> someone told me they had to be powers of two or something
21:53:02 <Rubidium> nah, if you said 8 or 6 I would still have said 7 though
21:54:47 <Yexo> andythenorth: the values have to be "power of two minus one". 7 is a valid mask because 8 is a power of 2. It'll give you 8 values (0..7)
21:55:27 * andythenorth saves that info locally :D
21:55:52 <andythenorth> anyway, smoke now looks way better
21:55:58 * andythenorth is pleased and sends cookies
21:59:23 <Rubidium> though can you beat wallyweb's cookies?
22:01:00 <andythenorth> mine are smoked :P
22:03:37 <Rubidium> smoked cookies? Never heard of them
22:04:51 <Rubidium> only "smoked ... cookies" I can find are "smoked bacon cookies"
22:04:59 <DanMacK> They're bacon flavoured
22:10:23 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22063 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Change: make the "has network" check also check whether the client is actually fully connected
22:22:14 <andythenorth> what happens if cb25 tries to advance to a frame > num of animation frames ?
22:22:21 <andythenorth> does it wrap? or explode?
22:23:57 <Yexo> there is no such thing as "num of animation frames"
22:24:22 <Yexo> instead your varaction2 checks the current animation frame and choses the appropriate action2
22:24:38 <andythenorth> so it will use varaction 2 default
22:24:41 <Yexo> if cb25 returns a frame that is not handle by your varaction2 check it'll just use the default, whatever that is
22:42:59 <Nite> whats the theoretical limit number of orders for a singel vehicle?
22:43:59 <Nite> (not a fan of autoremoove :/ )
22:45:23 <planetmaker> last time I checked - and there I actually hit it ;-)
22:45:49 <planetmaker> so it's a quite practical limit :-P
22:46:04 <Nite> oh ... thats not too much for sick (pax) systems spannign a whole map
22:46:30 <planetmaker> yep, that's where I hit it ;-)
22:47:40 <Nite> if u have 4 stations a town that would be "only" 64 towns ... 63 ... braaag
22:48:35 <Nite> was it a RV game you hit the 255?
22:48:59 <planetmaker> it were ICE trains with self-regulating orders
22:49:16 <Nite> self-regulating meaning?
22:49:21 <planetmaker> which distributed themselves to the routes according to demand
22:49:35 <planetmaker> lots of conditional orders
22:50:15 <planetmaker> actually it were Shinkansen, but yes ;-)
22:51:06 <Nite> mostly depends on map size & # of towns
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23:00:53 <Nite> can i see the nomber of towns a map holds somehow ingame?
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23:20:15 <nicfer> is there any rail/road network building server?
23:20:59 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22064 /trunk/src/ (network/network_server.cpp saveload/saveload.cpp): -Fix [FS#4497] (r21399): crash when disconnecting and reconnecting while the server is still saving the savegame
23:27:24 <Nite> erent all serveers rail/road network servers
23:27:38 <Nite> i mean ottd is a rail/road network game
23:29:30 <nicfer> I mean ones with big pax networks
23:29:52 <Nite> ha ... get hold of teh publiccoop server at themoment
23:29:59 <nicfer> not scattered all around the map
23:30:33 <Nite> what u want might be a connect everything game or the like ...
23:31:01 <nicfer> openttdcoop is too much exigent about hubs and such stuff
23:31:36 <Nite> i jsut go there too :-o :-o :-o
23:32:19 <nicfer> I'm thinking about a lighter version
23:32:39 <Nite> i need my own dedi server i guess
23:33:56 <Nite> i personally like alftons servers the most atm, and jens1 snorres
23:34:27 <Nite> you can have nice pax games on temperate and arctic there althought they have few towns
23:39:55 <nicfer> also, I want to learn to use timetable
23:40:21 <Nite> *hiccups* oh no timetables
23:41:39 <Nite> i guess i have to use them different or continue to use them not at all
23:42:03 <nicfer> so my trains reach stations more regularly
23:42:46 <Nite> when the game (cities) get bigger you will not need timetables but just take as much as u can
23:43:05 <Nite> and for industry i use fulload in most cases
23:43:43 <nicfer> which are the alftons servers?
23:44:52 <Nite> openttd.alfton.no (version 1.0.5)
23:45:20 <Nite> but it is very industry (ECS) oriented
23:46:01 <Nite> iam on the tropic one atm
23:50:00 <nicfer> speaking of trains, would be cool a new cargo function, that loads cargo until another train approaches the station
23:52:03 <Nite> isnt that too much automating?
23:52:49 <nicfer> it's more useful, it's annonying to do it manually
23:52:51 <Nite> i mean balancing is what you try to archeive with sophisticated systems
23:53:44 <Nite> would it not be like tetris always placing you the pieces in the right place - because its annoying to do it manually?
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23:54:03 <nicfer> activating full load and when another train comes in, you tell the one in the station to leave
23:54:56 <Nite> yes but it is one clue of the gaem to archeive this with correct trianlenght and good tracks not to automate everything ...
23:56:07 <Nite> but .. half load (or %age laod) would be nice, althought you can archeive that kind of with condi orders
23:57:32 <nicfer> isn't the game about building, and less about thinking?
23:58:06 <Nite> its true you mostly set your own goals in ottd
23:58:27 <Nite> but ottd is much about thinking/planing for sure
23:59:29 <nicfer> in my current game, my trains are too much together to each other
23:59:58 <nicfer> there's like three near one station and none near the others
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