IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-01-27
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00:38:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21919 /trunk/src/rail.h: -Fix: Converting an expensive rail type to a cheap one could give more money than removing and rebuilding cost
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09:22:47 * SmatZ had his masters' exams today
09:24:03 <Rubidium> so now you're officially unemployed as well? ;)
09:24:24 <Rubidium> in any case, congratulations :)
09:24:34 <SmatZ> I got some interview at 10th February
09:26:54 <peter1138> but it's only 9:26!
09:27:29 <planetmaker> congratz, SmatZ :-)
09:28:59 <Rubidium> but... but... it's 18:58
09:33:23 <Terkhen> congratulations SmatZ :)
09:38:06 * planetmaker wonders what would be a good solution how to integrate a drop-down or list thing in the adv. settings window
09:38:27 <planetmaker> graphically / GUI speaking, not technically
09:39:05 <planetmaker> just open a list window like the newgrf selection?
09:41:09 <Rubidium> planetmaker: we already have lists in the advanced settings window
09:41:11 <SmatZ> now, to some OpenTTD coding :)
09:41:42 <planetmaker> Rubidium, but only very short ones where the arrows work
09:41:51 <planetmaker> Imagine the language selection there. It'd be a pain
09:42:05 <planetmaker> It'd technically work, too. But...
09:42:15 <planetmaker> ... it'd be a nightmare from the UI
09:42:59 <planetmaker> Or currency selection
09:43:40 <planetmaker> or do I miss a list with really many entries?
09:43:49 <planetmaker> which is not a number
09:45:17 <Terkhen> you plan to unify all settings in a single window?
09:45:49 <Rubidium> opening another window seems like bad GUI design; for NewGRF parameters it's reasonable as there the window handles a set of settings, but for the "normal" settings it seems a bit over the top
09:48:17 <planetmaker> I tend to agree. Would a drop down there look good enough, though?
09:48:38 <planetmaker> Terkhen, it makes sense IMHO. The distinction between options, settings and difficulty is arbitrary at best
09:49:29 <Terkhen> and I think that a dropdown wouldn't look very good since the advanced settings are not aligned with each other
09:49:51 <planetmaker> well. Instead of the < > arrows possibly
09:50:06 <planetmaker> only becoming active when clicked... but not sure
09:50:30 <planetmaker> It feels not right either :-) - that's why I ask
09:51:59 <planetmaker> or just opening a drop-down list when the current selection is clicked
09:52:12 <planetmaker> instead of an edit window which now pops up for things like "enter a number"
09:52:58 <planetmaker> thus allowing a list selection and then be done with it.
09:53:28 <planetmaker> but it'd be this "another window", but where it comes to selecting one of really many, it needs some kind of list
09:54:05 <Rubidium> I think you (always) need to show the dropdown. Otherwise it's unclear to users that the line with language magically changes to a dropdown when clicking on the line
09:54:59 <planetmaker> a "select" button instead of the < > arrows?
09:56:55 <planetmaker> hm... or additionally a "v" button after the language (or whatever) in order to indicate that it opens a drop-down
09:57:03 <planetmaker> additionally to the < > buttons in front
09:57:48 <planetmaker> possibly with a line under the active language so that it gets optically linked...
10:02:29 <Terkhen> IMO the usual way of displaying dropdowns would be fine, the problem is that they would not be aligned with each other
10:04:51 <Rubidium> Q: how to handle the more interesting things, such as base set selection?
10:07:42 <Rubidium> I: what about spreading the settings over two lines?
10:07:54 <Rubidium> + In game placement of trees
10:08:06 <Rubidium> [ only in rain forests ][v]
10:08:20 <Rubidium> + Airports expiration
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10:08:42 <Rubidium> + Building on slopes and coasts
10:09:23 <Rubidium> + Maximum amount of road vehicles per company
10:09:31 <planetmaker> Rubidium, I don't like to generally spread the settings over two lines, esp those which don't need it
10:09:45 <Rubidium> 500 (min: 0, default: 500, max: 5000)
10:09:49 <planetmaker> Those with drop down... might be an idea in order to make it visually clear on thefirst glance
10:10:32 <planetmaker> But generally doubling the size of the window would give a way much of the conciseness IMHO
10:13:02 <Rubidium> yes, it would be less concise, but it would be more unified
10:13:23 <Rubidium> and you can reduce the length of the strings
10:13:49 <Rubidium> no need to say "Allow to build on slopes and coasts", just "Build on slopes and coasts"\n[ allowed ][v]
10:14:20 <Rubidium> the "only" problem/thing that don't work this way are the numbers
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10:17:32 <Rubidium> another caveat I see is that town names / resolution don't quite abide by the "it's just a list of strings in the language file", so getting it truely unified (graphically and coding wise) is going to be extremely tricky
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10:18:27 <planetmaker> Yes, I know that town names are a very nasty exception
10:18:33 <Rubidium> not to mention the disabling of entries in the currency list
10:18:38 <planetmaker> I constantly have there 'unknown string' displayed currently
10:19:14 <planetmaker> as I removed the newgrf which I used the last time I selected it ;-)
10:19:34 <Rubidium> unless you fall back to listing functions that build the string list in table/settings.h
10:20:10 <Rubidium> though that would more or less require the setting refactoring thing Alberth has been working on
10:20:12 <planetmaker> I'd like to move the town name selection though rather to either the newgrf selection or the new map selection
10:20:43 <Rubidium> it makes most sense for the new map selection
10:20:47 <planetmaker> All other options and difficulties could go somewhere in the settings, though
10:21:32 <planetmaker> the only other somewhat dubious candidate is the drive side selection. But then... adv. settings is fine enough
10:22:04 <Rubidium> hmm, and advantage of Alberth's work is that we could introduce "easy", "medium", "hard" defaults for settings
10:22:31 <planetmaker> yes. Though I consider these two works (mostly) achievable independently
10:22:42 <planetmaker> they're related, but don't collide
10:23:02 <Rubidium> agreed, though both more or less require Alberth's work
10:23:56 <planetmaker> uhm... that's what I meant: not necessarily. But yes, it'll help
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12:25:13 <Wolf01> gah.. gmail filters zip, exe, bat and various other "harmful" file extensions...
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12:37:39 <Terkhen> rename to .gmail_is_picky
12:43:51 <Wolf01> it's a useless filter, they only want to not take responsibility for the content of attachments, one could easily host the "virus" in another service and then send the link via gmail
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13:53:58 <Guest1798> is there some mod out there to allow bringing water from a lake to the city ? <;
13:55:02 <planetmaker> if the lake has a water well (industry), that's feasible.
13:55:38 <planetmaker> Just place the (tropical) waterwell industry near the lake or ocean as a pumping station to mimic it
13:55:45 <planetmaker> it's even realistic then :-)
13:56:31 <Guest1798> so water from oasis
13:57:21 <planetmaker> no. From a pumping station near the shore
13:57:33 <planetmaker> Just place it appropriately :-)
13:58:01 <Guest1798> well it ooks like its from there ;>
13:58:46 <Guest1798> but imagine how much water could be transported from the ocean
13:59:06 <planetmaker> as much as the pump throughput allows
13:59:20 <planetmaker> I see no reason I want to transport salt water, though
13:59:39 <planetmaker> as such the plant also incorporates a de-salination and the throughput drops even more
13:59:42 <Guest1798> i would submerse the train hoing on underwater track
14:00:08 <Guest1798> so train would pull out
14:00:45 <Guest1798> yeah well irl you can make ROH water from the ocean
14:01:20 <Guest1798> there will be plants doing that is future
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14:18:47 <Belugas> mister Wolf01 :) i saw yu went back on patching. Happy times ahaed ;)
14:19:24 <norbert79> I smell sarcasm ;-) Guess that was meant like that :)
14:19:34 <peter1138> hmm, trying to use mm3d
14:19:53 <peter1138> but its snap to grid fails... it's more like snap to grid approximately
14:20:20 <norbert79> peter1138: What about Blender?
14:26:16 <peter1138> how to snap to grid? :p
14:26:54 <Guest1798> i would use round function
14:28:45 <Guest1798> and snap lets say at 50%
14:29:13 <Guest1798> between 2 grid values
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15:17:58 <TrueBrain> sanity check, check
15:58:51 <Maluf> i am new here and would like to know more about coding ottd
15:59:35 <Maluf> just reading in some forums
16:00:14 <Maluf> the idear is to set up or modifi a goal server
16:00:26 <Maluf> do you know to who i need to speak ?
16:01:28 <Ammler> this channel is fine...
16:06:55 <Ammler> Maluf: there are already some "hidden closed" goal server hacks, but something public opensource would be very welcome :-)
16:08:40 <Maluf> you mean like the ex server as example ?
16:08:53 <Maluf> i prefer to play on that server
16:09:00 <Maluf> but it is not updated anymore
16:09:19 <Maluf> that is why i am interested to rebuild something like that
16:09:43 <Maluf> there are no opensource goal servers?
16:10:02 <Maluf> just searching in forums for some examples
16:10:06 <Eddi|zuHause> aye... i remember now why i had a modificated firs version...
16:10:49 <Terkhen> I don't know any recent "goal" server public code
16:12:35 <Maluf> that means i would need to start from zero :(
16:13:04 <Ammler> maybe that isn't bad at all :-)
16:13:22 <Terkhen> but then you can make it right :)
16:13:43 <Maluf> the problem is that i still have some other work to do :)
16:14:13 <Maluf> i hoped that there is a base i can start with
16:14:33 <Ammler> maybe rather extend the new admin interface and let a external bot do the "goal work"
16:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Maluf: the old goal server patches were Big Hacks (tm) anyway, and wouldn't work anymore. preferably you'd implement something utilizing stuff like the new admin (bot) interface
16:15:37 <Terkhen> that would be great, yes
16:16:33 <Maluf> where can i find more information about the new admin (bot) interface?
16:16:44 <Maluf> could you give me a link?
16:18:37 <fonsinchen> Rubidium: about FS#4440
16:19:50 <fonsinchen> When actually going for a service order, we could move the unreached auto-order behind the service order instead of removing them
16:20:13 <fonsinchen> I mean: when skipping a service order
16:21:20 <fonsinchen> While actually servicing the vehicle and we get to a station which doesn't have an auto order, but there is one for the same station after the service order, we can move that in front of the service order.
16:21:47 <fonsinchen> (instead of creating a new auto order)
16:22:11 <fonsinchen> Like this we don't need additional flags, no duplicate orders are created and cargodist always knows where we're going.
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16:46:46 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... what am i doing wrong if the refresh button doesn't pick up my new grf file?
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16:47:44 <LordAro> i _really_ hate my internet connection...
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17:06:31 <Eddi|zuHause> is there an option to un-hide "old" (i.e. lower version) grfs?
17:10:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "B" "VRSN" \w4 \d1002
17:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "B" "MINV" \w4 \d1469
17:10:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't look right
17:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: thanks. it seems to be "gui.newgrf_show_old_versions"
17:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently you can't mix FIRS nightly and FIRS release. nightly has version around 1000-ish and release around 1500-ish
17:15:38 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: looks like VRSN detection is broken there, should be the revision number of the release
17:17:18 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: what happens when multiple vehicles are close to eachother and some go for service and some don't?
17:18:18 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: he, and that had already MINV that high?
17:18:29 <Rubidium> presume A -> b -> c -> S -> D (A/D manually ordered stations, b/c automatic orders, S the depot to service at
17:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: MINV seems to be FIRS 0.5.something
17:19:07 <Rubidium> vehicle 1: skips servicing, so changes it to A -> S -> b -> c -> D
17:19:10 <Ammler> I don't think, r1002 had already a14
17:19:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: and VRSN whatever the revision says
17:19:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: maybe the revision is really broken
17:20:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: hg log says 1633
17:20:08 <Rubidium> vehicle 2: doesn't skip servicing, due to breakdown of #1 it arrives at b before #1, order changes to A -> b -> S -> c -> D
17:20:15 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: hg parent?
17:21:37 <Rubidium> what would that order change do to the current order index of #2? I'd say it goes to c, as going back an order is somewhat odd
17:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i can't interpret that output... it seems weird
17:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: ah. i think i get it
17:22:23 <Rubidium> so, #1 arrives at b doesn't see it as the current (automatic) order and adds it
17:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i don't have commited the merge yet
17:22:49 <Rubidium> giving you A -> b -> S -> b -> c -> D
17:23:30 <Rubidium> now #1 arrives at c, which isn't directly after S so it adds c: A -> b -> c -> S -> b -> c -> D
17:23:51 <Rubidium> and at that moment it'll think that b is after c
17:24:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: now it says: "B" "VRSN" \w4 \d1634
17:25:19 <Wolf01> but at least I read you Rubidium :P
17:25:34 <Ammler> he, you can tell fonsinchen, he can have a bouncer account from us ;-)
17:26:29 <Eddi|zuHause> now it doesn't get the M attached anymore... ;)
17:27:16 <Ammler> IMO, it should compare the repo with origin and then decide to add a M
17:27:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that doesn't seem to happen. or i use it the wrong way
17:27:55 <Ammler> yes, it doesn't, it "should" :-)
17:28:46 <Ammler> the "modified" detection is quite useless with hg repos
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17:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes, and the revision is all wrong anyway, since each merge of mine will add a +1
17:38:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ok... there are some crazy landscapes that you can create with the more heightlevels patch :p
17:39:33 <Rubidium> sounds like Eddi had enough of his previous game and is starting a new one
17:41:02 <planetmaker> I thought Eddi is busy preparing a title game ;-)
17:41:08 <planetmaker> good evening also :-)
17:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> moreheightlevels must adapt snow line...
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17:57:07 <Eddi|zuHause> what i really dislike is the creation of mountain plateaus, which will then concentrate lots of industries on them, while the rest of the terrain is practically empty
17:57:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what did the industry flattening code get introduced for?
17:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling it's not working at all.
18:01:04 <Alberth> hmm, I must have missed a few commits then
18:02:09 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and why is tree creation taking ages?
18:04:07 <Alberth> use the 'none' tree creation algorithm :)
18:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, just did that ;)
18:05:46 <Guest1798> so bank is like a women?
18:06:03 <Guest1798> requires: diamonds, produces: nothing
18:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what's wrong with the landscape generator... there's always one mountain that has its top cut off, and it will gather a large number of towns and industries on this plateau
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18:07:40 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: reduce varietey distribution?
18:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: not entirely sure that has any effect at all on moreheightlevels
18:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like it thinks i selected "mesas" as landscape type...
18:15:21 <frosch123> anyway, if you want to reduce the effect of flat land on industries, you likely need to replace RandomTile() in PlaceIndustry() with something else
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18:16:12 <frosch123> something which starts at a random tile, but if it fails it should not pick a totally different tile, but check nearby positions
18:16:54 <fonsinchen> Rubidium: In order to solve FS#4440 by moving the auto orders around I'll just have to refactor CmdMoveOrder to create a MoveOrder like DeleteOrder and InsertOrder. Then I'll just have to call that in those two places.
18:17:21 <frosch123> moving auto orders around?
18:18:19 <fonsinchen> The idea is that when we encounter a non-ordered station on the way to an ordered depot, we check if there is an auto-order after the depot order and if so we move that in front of the depot order.
18:18:41 <frosch123> how does that work with shared orders?
18:18:51 <fonsinchen> On the other hand if we have unreached auto orders when actually reaching an ordered depot we move those in front of the depot order.
18:19:45 <fonsinchen> As the vehicles will have already decided if they are going to be serviced when all that happens it will work fine with shared orders
18:20:20 <frosch123> but if the vehicles are not going to service they have to skip the service order somewhere in between
18:20:24 <fonsinchen> The auto orders will always be kept in the same order among each other, only the depot order is in fact moved around and as that is the only manual order it should work.
18:20:46 <frosch123> i .e. cur_order_index would have to jump from the automatic order before the depot to the one after it
18:21:14 <fonsinchen> No, they are skipping it already in the beginning. When they are still at the previous manual order and doing ProcessOrders there.
18:21:39 <fonsinchen> I'll write a patch for that on saturday.
18:21:41 <frosch123> current_order skips it, but not cur_order_index
18:22:18 <fonsinchen> cur_order_index is updated by CmdMoveOrder of shared vehicles, if that's what you're asking for.
18:22:57 <fonsinchen> If some order is moved around all vehicles sharing the order list will stay at the same order.
18:23:30 <frosch123> err. ok what i understood from your plan: if we go from A to D via automatic b and c with service-only depot between b and c
18:23:56 <Zuu> Have you though about trying to solve the issue of injecting new vehicles into a shared group from a depot not at the beginning of the order set?
18:24:20 <frosch123> then vehicles going for service will head from A to the depot, and in the order gui they will display cur_order_index as b and then the depot
18:24:37 <frosch123> then current_order will become D and the order gui switches to c and later to D
18:25:02 <frosch123> if the vehicle is not going to service, current_order will become B immediatelly after leaving A
18:25:19 <Zuu> If a new vehicle visits (or not) some stations on the way to enter the usual cycle, that changed the auto orders last time I tried it. It might not be trivial to fix though.
18:25:20 <frosch123> cur_order_index will travers b, then skip the depot and continue with c and d
18:25:39 <fonsinchen> No, current_order will never become B as B is automatic.
18:25:54 <fonsinchen> cur_order_index will
18:27:18 <frosch123> so, but doesn't that mean that you somehow know, which order index current_order refers to?
18:27:24 <fonsinchen> Zuu: the auto-orders will be repaired once some vehicle does the regular cycle.
18:27:51 <fonsinchen> frosch123: Why do you think that?
18:27:57 <Zuu> yes, so it might or might not be an issue depending on what other code will rely on the auto orders.
18:28:06 <frosch123> imagine there are multiple depot orders between A and D
18:29:55 <fonsinchen> They'll all get shuffled around accordingly
18:30:10 <fonsinchen> But multiple depot orders in a row are pointless anyway.
18:30:32 <fonsinchen> The first one will get evaluated, all others will immediately get skipped.
18:30:50 <fonsinchen> So it's just the same as one depot order.
18:32:43 <fonsinchen> The point is that the auto orders are all kept in the same order all the time and each vehicle always keeps its cur_order_index at the same order until it reaches the order's destination.
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18:33:24 <fonsinchen> Thus, once the auto orders have stabilized there won't be any duplicate or missing ones.
18:33:33 <frosch123> yeah, the goal is fine, i am just not confessed that it will work :)
18:33:54 <frosch123> "convinced" right? i always confuse those
18:34:22 <fonsinchen> If those last two sentences of mine are true, it will work. I'm pretty confident. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to code it tonight.
18:34:35 <VonWaldo> I've been plaing openTTD for about 2 hours now. But I just made a couple of train stations and put a train depot on it, and bought a train in the depot, and gave it orders.
18:34:48 <VonWaldo> But when I todl it to start, it just stays at 0 mph in the depot.
18:35:02 <VonWaldo> I tried putting the depot in different places and stuff
18:35:04 <fonsinchen> Zuu: Currently auto-orders are used to show you which vehicles are visiting a station.
18:35:20 <fonsinchen> In cargodist auto-orders are used to guess where a vehicle is going next.
18:35:39 <frosch123> VonWaldo: you need signals to run multiple trains on the same track
18:35:50 <VonWaldo> that sounds complicated
18:36:04 <fonsinchen> If you're constantly manually sending vehicles into some order group on strange ways you're creating nondeterministic behaviour for that group.
18:36:30 <fonsinchen> We cannot say for sure which station a vehicle from that group will visit next.
18:36:38 <fonsinchen> Thus cargodist will load the wrong cargo in that case.
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18:38:06 <VonWaldo> I just randomly put a signal down next to the station and the train started going
18:38:43 <Alberth> you'll have to do it less randomly if you want a good working network :)
18:38:59 <Alberth> but experimenting is good
18:39:06 <VonWaldo> Yeah, I'll have to sit down and figure it all out at some point
18:40:15 <Zuu> fonsinchen: At least with the auto orders being visualised, it will possible make players aware of the issue.
18:41:23 <Zuu> VonWaldo: If you're new to it, I suggest focusing on path signals at start.
18:41:35 <Zuu> They are all you need for sane usage.
18:42:13 <Zuu> The Pre-signals are block signals and work in a quite different way.
18:42:16 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: have you seen the text I written just before you timed out?
18:43:29 * fonsinchen takes a look at the logs
18:45:14 <fonsinchen> Rubidium: I'd keep the current logic of CmdMoveOrder where each vehicle sticks to the same order it's following at the moment when moving orders around.
18:45:27 <fonsinchen> in terms of cur_order_index
18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21920 /trunk/src/lang/ (greek.txt spanish.txt unfinished/basque.txt):
18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: basque - 25 changes by Thadah
18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: greek - 6 changes by fumantsu
18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
18:48:22 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: hmm, I guess that's something we need to play with to see whether it behaves sane or not
18:49:24 <fonsinchen> For now I have to leave, though. Maybe I'll shop up again later at night, but probably not.
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18:54:58 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: is 23900 / 2 so difficult?
18:56:18 <Alberth> oh, 7250*2/100 of course :)
18:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't really understand where this number is coming from...
18:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> terrain gets clamped to this number somewhere, but i thought i took all clamping out...
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19:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having a feeling i forgot something...
19:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't suppose there's a way to get the difference between game settings and newgame setings within the game?
19:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... changing starting_year and keeping random seed changes the distribution of towns....
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19:34:14 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i think i have a real inconsistency here: when you change starting_year ingame, and hit "restart", the new starting year is used, but when you change newgrf config and hit "restart", then the old newgrf config is used
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19:49:20 <VonWaldo> So.... path signals make it so that you can only go one direction on a piece of track?
19:50:35 <VonWaldo> Signals are confusing to me...
19:53:47 <andythenorth> what additional buy menu text to add for FISH ships
19:53:53 <Yexo> VonWaldo: trains won't crash until you force one to skip a signal
19:53:54 <andythenorth> propulsion type?
19:54:04 <VonWaldo> I took the signals away
19:54:23 <VonWaldo> because I didn't know how they work... but the train started going at some point
19:54:38 <Markk> Start with normal signals.
19:54:50 <Sacro> then trains crashed frequently
19:55:05 <Markk> The PBS were better looking before imo.
19:55:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: you mean like "force one train through the signal, and the other one suddenly starts to move because no reservation is ahead anymore"?
19:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... how can a ship be "lost" when the destination is straight ahead?
19:56:27 * VonWaldo is gonna do his signal homework now
19:56:39 <LordAro> because the original ship pathfinder is so useless
19:58:11 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: things like that yes
19:58:18 <LordAro> there have been a couple of commits trying to fix it since 'lost' markers were enabled for it
20:01:20 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: but switching pathfinder doesn't change anything
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20:39:01 <Alberth> andythenorth: do you have more description of your 'arbitrary groups' concept? I don't seem to understand the advantages
20:39:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the departure boards are seriously useless... someone needs to teach this guy about scaling to font size...
20:40:08 <Alberth> report a bug in the thread :)
20:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i did that already once upon a time...
20:42:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: I should look up one of our long irc chats :P
20:42:51 <andythenorth> I just don't like hierarchical groups where an entity can only be present at one location on the tree
20:43:24 <andythenorth> it's good for a certain kind of tidy mind
20:43:32 <andythenorth> I don't have that kind of mind
20:44:32 <andythenorth> Alberth I'm not sure - but the groups you were proposing don't seem to be a single fixed hierarchy?
20:45:33 <Alberth> they are not, you have ordering properties that you can add/remove/shuffle.
20:45:58 <andythenorth> you put a screen shot of work in progress somewhere?
20:46:15 <Alberth> within one sequence of properties, vehicles 'exist' at one place only though.
20:46:30 <andythenorth> but you can switch different properties...
20:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> int time_width = (departure_types[0] && departure_types[1]) ? (GetStringBoundingBox(STR_DEPARTURES_TIME_DEP)).width : (GetStringBoundingBox(STR_DEPARTURES_TIME)).width; <-- this is the calculation it's supposed to do, but it seems to be wrong
20:46:30 <Alberth> I have a small example somewhere
20:47:31 <Alberth> what do people have with parentheses?
20:47:58 <andythenorth> it's a well known british dish
20:48:07 <ccfreak2k> I use them a lot to make the order of operations more clear/.
20:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> later it does this:
20:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause> ltr ? DrawString( text_left, text_left + time_width, y + 1, time_str)
20:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> : DrawString(text_right - time_width, text_right, y + 1, time_str);
20:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess he was too lazy to use an if()
20:54:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i know what's wrong
20:54:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it sets the parameter to MAX_INT, but that is not necessarily the "widest" time
20:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i set it to 0 now, it behaves better
20:57:14 <Alberth> you need a pretty large monitor for MAX_INT pixels :p
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20:58:07 <andythenorth> Alberth: how many user-defined groups can a vehicle belong to: 0 | 1 or 0 | n ?
21:00:07 <Alberth> s/can/does/, and n (ie as many as you have user-defined groups). n is going to be something in the order of 2-3 currently.
21:01:00 <Alberth> but a vehicle is always in a group of every property, even if it is 'unknown' or so
21:02:06 <andythenorth> I don't entirely follow :)D
21:03:02 <Alberth> a group is not a global thing
21:03:22 <Alberth> each property has groups (w.r.t. that property).
21:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: no, i meant it is interpreting MAX_INT as a time (in minutes?, modulo day length?, or something?)
21:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: and when that results in 11:11, it may be a fairly short time, most fonts will not be monospace
21:06:54 <Alberth> a group of a property contains 0 or more vehicles, such that all vehicles are in exactly one of the groups (of that property)
21:07:52 <andythenorth> so for each property I (as user) can create n groups
21:09:00 <Alberth> you do for 'user-defined' groups (like the one we have currently). For other properties, such as 'main cargo', or 'orders', or 'vehicle type' you don't have to do anything. Vehicles get groups assigned automagically.
21:09:37 <andythenorth> yeah that makes sense
21:09:51 <andythenorth> I'm only really puzzled about how much the user can define
21:09:58 <andythenorth> the rest is quite clear :)
21:10:03 <Alberth> for sequences of properties, the first splits all vehicles into its groups. The second one splits each group of the first according to its own groups, etc
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21:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> feature request: allow finding out the cost of a construction action while paused, if building while paused is disabled
21:11:22 <Alberth> you can shuffle properties
21:11:44 <Alberth> and you have a few user-defined group properties
21:12:34 <Alberth> I think that would be mostly sufficient to get the set of vehicles you want to have at one point in time.
21:13:01 <Alberth> then you can apply some operation on them, autoreplace, give new orders, go home, whatever
21:13:43 <andythenorth> and if user defines group A and group B, vehicle 1 can't be in both?
21:14:08 <Alberth> not within one property
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21:19:55 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: sorry, I have never looked at the departure boards code
21:21:47 <Eddi|zuHause> bahh... the automatted timetables and separation feature is even more useless...
21:22:01 <Eddi|zuHause> if you unselect automation, it deletes the whole timetable...
21:22:35 <Hirundo> Is there any good timetable patch available?
21:22:54 <Eddi|zuHause> not really, it seems
21:23:16 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: GetDigitWidth() may be useful :) line 1443 of gfx.cpp
21:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: hm... maybe, but then it won't be flexible if the time string gets translated
21:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> although i'm not sure if that is actually possible
21:25:16 <Alberth> time stamps tend to have a pretty fixed format :)
21:26:27 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: judging by the code of the automated timetable patch, you need to press ctrl when deselecting automation to preserve times
21:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: that's a genous use of a hidden feature...
21:27:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't see any use for deleting the timetable in _any_ situation
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21:49:12 <andythenorth> does FISH need to provide translations?
21:49:15 <andythenorth> seems like overkill...
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21:59:13 <andythenorth> what would stop cb23 working? :P
22:01:54 <andythenorth> is cb23 implemented for ships?
22:02:10 <frosch123> but it has a mask bit iirc
22:02:55 <andythenorth> spec says it's enabled if handled
22:03:16 <frosch123> yeah, there is none, it should just work :)
22:03:32 <andythenorth> the define works
22:07:31 <andythenorth> I'm doing something wrong :P
22:08:54 <VonWaldo> Is there a way to easily upgrade a city's airport? like... if it has a small airport, do I just have to build a bigger airport somewhere else in the city and then change all the airplane's flight schedules? Or should I just leave the old one also
22:09:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: did you also define that in the 0xff purchase list case of action3 ?
22:09:49 <andythenorth> also - why would a D0 text defined with feature 00 (train) work as a cargo subtype string for ships (it appears to)
22:10:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: thanks
22:10:43 <frosch123> VonWaldo: there is no easy way, but you could join the airport with some bus stop (same station sign), then remove the old airport and build a new one joining the old station
22:11:04 <frosch123> then you do not need to change the orders, but if your townrating is not good enough to build the new one you are screwed :p
22:11:42 <VonWaldo> how do I know if the rating is good enough or not
22:11:47 <VonWaldo> and what happens if it's not?
22:12:26 <frosch123> if it is not good enough, you won't be able to build the new one, and lnot even rebuild the old one
22:12:46 <VonWaldo> and how do I join it with a bus station
22:12:47 <frosch123> if ylou are in single player, just save before removing the airport :p
22:13:03 <frosch123> either build them directly adjacent, or hold ctrl while building
22:13:24 <VonWaldo> okay, they are touching, yeah no new sign showed up so I guess it worked
22:14:42 <VonWaldo> sweet. airport successfully upgraded!
22:15:43 <frosch123> if you are fast enough, you do not need to build a bus stop btw. the station sign will not disappear immediatelly and new stations can still join it
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23:04:02 <VonWaldo> what is the benefit of joining truck stations, etc?
23:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
23:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the more stations you join, the more trucks can unload at the same time
23:57:39 <SirSquidness> I only realised that a week or two ago
23:57:53 <SirSquidness> It suddenly made road vehciles so much better
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