IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-01-08
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00:00:35 <KenjiE20> continued dark tonight, turning to scattered light in the morning
00:01:45 <[Xed]> Haha i knew it, even the darkest periods end up in a dawn sooner or later :D
00:17:29 <Rubidium> dihedral: it's (IMO) too much work to keep the docommand stuff retain the same command id; you need to add all kinds of checks for non-subsequent lists of commands and such
00:18:12 <Rubidium> Wolf01: I don't quite get it, but make a savegame and file a bug report
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01:21:59 <SmatZ> lol @ Oprah Winfrey Network
01:51:11 <Wolf01> ok, istead of making daylength I made the year loop for 4 times each year, now I only have to fixh the leap year, reduce the speed of days and months to reflect the right day and month and then base the year introduction to the fake year
01:51:55 <Wolf01> and in finances window every trimester instead of every year
01:52:09 <Wolf01> if the loop are 4-based
01:52:41 <Wolf01> so 1 fakeyear = 4 years -> 1 year = 3 fakemonths
02:26:23 <z-MaTRiX> a little late night coding?
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05:39:34 <kamnet> Anybody awake at this hour?
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05:53:56 <supermop> you are in EST as well, kamnet, right?
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05:56:43 <kamnet> It's okay. Lightly snowing. Hope it's clear enough for me tomorrow to get out and do some work for some clients.
05:57:19 <supermop> we were supposed to get alot today
05:57:32 <supermop> it snowed really heavily until about 3
05:57:50 <supermop> not much on the ground though
05:58:12 <supermop> melted before falling back down to 20s
05:58:14 <kamnet> we're supposed to get an inch
05:58:40 <supermop> was supposed to be 6 here, but ended up being less than 3
06:00:33 <supermop> i actually like snow in the city
06:03:31 <kamnet> where do you live again?
06:04:46 <supermop> right now i am in manhattan
06:11:57 <kamnet> In the big city, woot!
06:12:30 <supermop> i thoought that 't' was an 'f'
06:12:41 <supermop> was confused why city = dogs
06:15:46 <supermop> Where abouts are you?
06:20:27 <kamnet> eastern KY, about 30 minutes from Lexington
06:23:43 <supermop> i have spent most of my time in Ohio,
06:24:05 <supermop> but not familiar with that part of Kentucky
06:36:37 <kamnet> I do lots of stuff. Mainly I work from home operating a switch board for an electronics company.
06:37:01 <kamnet> I also dabble in web design, photography, videography and I take outside assignments for store audits and merchandising.
06:38:46 <kamnet> pretty much. people call in, tell me what they need and I send them to whatever department
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06:48:34 <deepa> Can you record games of openttd :D?
06:49:10 <kamnet> With the appropriate screen recording software, yes.
06:49:15 <kamnet> Not built into the game though.
06:49:19 <kamnet> Goodmorning andythenorth
06:54:31 <supermop> ok I have to go to bed
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07:22:52 <Zuu> To early for a Saturday, but at least I get the enjoyment of going on a train that will take 3 hours or by random more time up to 7-8 hours :-)
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08:08:01 <andythenorth> have game downloads spike in the last 10 days?
08:12:58 <Rubidium> a bit, but not that significant as for the first 1.0.0 betas
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08:16:13 <andythenorth> for some reason grf downloads on FISH / FIRS look like they jumped
08:16:28 <andythenorth> I don't graph them though
08:17:49 <Alberth> a lot of players have 'discovered' 1.1 beta, and are testing your grfs perhaps
08:18:00 <kamnet> Let me ask ya, andy, what kinda ideas do you have for updating industrial stations?
08:18:23 <kamnet> Rubidium: a bit, but not that significant as for the first 1.0.0 betas
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08:21:24 <Alberth> aren't there a few servers that use your FIRS ?
08:23:28 <andythenorth> change the ground tiles
08:23:44 <andythenorth> taste is subjective, but I dislike them
08:23:49 <kamnet> what do you not like about them?
08:25:28 <andythenorth> they're visually noisy and unpleasing to me
08:25:58 <andythenorth> in my view, sprites should either fit TTD classic style, or OpenGFX style, ISR ground is neither
08:26:02 <andythenorth> it tries to be realistic
08:26:07 <kamnet> have you seen my modification of them in my road sprites?
08:26:51 <andythenorth> removing the green noise?
08:27:05 <kamnet> yes. Is that a good improvement?
08:27:32 <kamnet> But is it good? (as opposed to evil ISR :D)
08:27:40 <andythenorth> I wanted to use the FIRS ground tiles
08:28:05 <andythenorth> I'm not sure whether I personally want to improve ISR, or start a new ISR
08:28:40 <andythenorth> I would prefer a slightly smaller set, tailored to match FIRS industries
08:28:48 <kamnet> The reason those ISR ground tiles are green in color is because they're actually set to the blue/pink transparency colors. So whatever the base ground sprite is, that is what shows through.
08:29:09 <andythenorth> I know why that was done, but I don't like it :)
08:29:27 <andythenorth> it does fit some other sets
08:29:29 <kamnet> I was just going to ponder why that was done. Doesn't look all that realistic to me.
08:29:51 <andythenorth> the aim was to show gravel rather than tarmac
08:30:04 <andythenorth> like rail yards where the ground covering isn't 100%
08:30:12 <kamnet> doesn't look like gravel to me either, though.
08:30:42 <andythenorth> it's a shame the station sprites are all composited with the ground tile in the source
08:30:50 <andythenorth> otherwise it would be easy to fix
08:31:50 <kamnet> I think "Industrial Stations for FIRS" would be nice.
08:38:12 <andythenorth> for roadtypes an actual spec of the bits might be the next step...
08:46:03 <andythenorth> FINE Is Nicely Enigmatic
08:46:08 <andythenorth> that took some time to work out :P
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09:05:51 <andythenorth> catenary would be an action 3 graphics method for roadtypes?
09:05:57 <andythenorth> doesn't need any tile bits?
09:08:24 <andythenorth> planetmaker: would a roadtypes project make sense at devzone?
09:28:44 <andythenorth> what does this do? m5 bits 5..4: bits to disallow vehicles to go a specific direction
09:29:09 <andythenorth> or more precisely, are those bits needed for both roadtypes, or just once on the tile?
09:29:50 <andythenorth> do they provide one way roads?
09:30:30 <Alberth> that would be my guess. You can check by looking for some oneway road function, and looking what bits they use
09:31:06 <Alberth> grep -ri oneway src :)
09:31:33 <andythenorth> yeah, they're oneway bits
09:31:42 <andythenorth> not sure how that fits the spec
09:32:13 <andythenorth> it's too complicated to have one way for one roadtype but not the other
09:32:44 <Alberth> it also does not make much sense to have that imho
09:32:59 <andythenorth> I think it just wouldn't work at all
09:34:00 <Alberth> and you can easily consider it outside the scope of your current patch :)
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09:44:06 <andythenorth> 8 needed, 13 free
09:45:47 <andythenorth> how should they be allocated?
09:48:51 <andythenorth> move roadtype 1 owner bits (5 needed) to m4?
09:50:17 * andythenorth ponders just using three bits for type
09:50:35 <andythenorth> probably not quite enough
09:50:57 <andythenorth> do bits need to be kept adjacent in each m block?
09:51:05 <andythenorth> or can they be fragmented?
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10:03:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it would
10:03:48 <andythenorth> need to be kept adjacent?
10:03:53 <planetmaker> it's free to all open-source openttd-related development projects
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10:04:39 <planetmaker> a subproject of openttd->branches would seem to be the place
10:04:45 <andythenorth> crossed wires :)
10:05:34 <kamnet> Shading is not quite right but it's a mircale I made it this far.
10:05:38 <planetmaker> doesn't work, kamnet :-(
10:06:13 <andythenorth> planetmaker: made the project
10:06:13 * planetmaker wonders whether kamnet would like to start adding some objects to opengfx+landscape...
10:06:27 <andythenorth> what's a good way to handle spec? wiki / documents / tickets?
10:07:13 <planetmaker> also... did I say 'good morning'? :-)
10:08:02 <Alberth> tile bits in whatever document we have in trunk, NewGRF spec either in a text file or at a wiki page (if you want others to change it)
10:09:48 <planetmaker> very nice, kamnet :-)
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10:10:59 <planetmaker> I think though the very white part of the one antenna is too much
10:11:09 <kamnet> Let me finish up what I've already started planetmaker :-) I promised Wallyweb I'd work on a few towers to add to NewObjects, and I want to finish the road sprites I'm working on as well. Maybe I can convince a nice coder to come along and help me finish that :D
10:11:36 <planetmaker> ah, ok :-) no worries. Seeing them in wally's newobjects is just as fine
10:12:14 <kamnet> Oh, the left one is Wally's, the middle one is mine, the right one is SAC's tall street lights. Put it up for scale comparison.
10:13:22 <kamnet> all the antenna array on the left side of my tower need to be the same dark shade. That white may still be too bright as well
10:13:54 <planetmaker> right, I think the shading of the metal of the antenna itself could use some re-touch. not sure it fits light direction. Which way do they point and bend?
10:14:05 <planetmaker> the white on yours is fine
10:14:21 <planetmaker> but might seem a pixel too wide to the left
10:15:00 <planetmaker> hm, just the brightness of red and white doesn't seem to have the same gradient...
10:16:21 <kamnet> yeah the red is darker. I think I want to go more dark on the white
10:19:16 <andythenorth> try pink instead of red
10:19:41 <andythenorth> red + white will always result in high contrast, I think it's something to do with the physics of the eye
10:19:46 <andythenorth> the default lighthouse is pink
10:19:53 <andythenorth> not all game colours == real world colours
10:28:19 <andythenorth> the purple antenna parts don't work
10:28:38 <andythenorth> also I can't quite prevent it looking like there's a step between the red and white
10:28:43 <andythenorth> needs anti-aliasing
10:29:16 <andythenorth> and the base of the tower needs some pixels, either a foundation, or just some shadowing
10:29:32 * andythenorth resumes doing boring resizing of boats
10:29:34 <planetmaker> the default light house is not pink
10:29:47 <planetmaker> maybe for a minority of people :-P
10:30:46 <andythenorth> it uses the same shades as brick buildings
10:31:02 <andythenorth> not in OpenGFX mind
10:31:34 <Alberth> the red is too strong imho
10:31:54 <Alberth> it looks somewhat opengfx oilrig-ish
10:32:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's why I object to the use of 'default'. Either it's TTD or OpenGFX ;-)
10:33:11 <planetmaker> because default de-facto is OpenGFX
10:33:17 <andythenorth> not in my world :P
10:33:29 <andythenorth> anyways, you're correct
10:36:01 <kamnet> Are you sure your monitor is calibrated right Andy? :-)
10:39:35 <andythenorth> but I'm on a mac which has different gamma and colour space
10:40:03 <kamnet> Okay, I was just wondering if you were on a mac...
10:40:08 <kamnet> because that's like WAY off.
10:42:09 <planetmaker> I'd not say that any of it is way off...
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10:42:53 <kamnet> All the whites look grey and all the greys look purple.
10:43:04 <planetmaker> usually the mac comes with a manufacturer - supplied means to colour-calibrate your stuff and I assume that andy did that ;-)
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10:44:05 <planetmaker> maybe you need to adjust yours? ;-)
10:44:13 <planetmaker> but yes, I'm on mac, too
10:44:32 <planetmaker> but I did colour-calibrate stuff as well as I could
10:45:24 <planetmaker> and the change from white to grey was probably intended and shows here as such, too.
10:45:50 <andythenorth> kamnet: the whites look grey because I've drawn it correctly for original TTD style :)
10:45:59 <andythenorth> the purple...less so
10:46:08 <planetmaker> and indeed. your antennas got a hue of purple ;-)
10:46:19 <andythenorth> it doesn't matter whether you're colour calibrated or not
10:46:22 <kamnet> OH! Okay so you've changed the palette.
10:46:46 <kamnet> or not the palette... but the coloring.
10:46:48 <andythenorth> I've drawn it correctly :)
10:47:14 <planetmaker> the antennas are purple, still ;-)
10:48:50 <andythenorth> the antennas are fail
10:48:59 <planetmaker> btw, kamnet: I'd arrange the antennas circular, not in a square
10:49:17 <andythenorth> sometimes purple (the window shades) works for shiny surfaces
10:49:20 <andythenorth> in this case, not
10:49:50 <andythenorth> quite a bit of FIRS greeble, metal storage tanks etc is purple + grey
10:51:04 <kamnet> Actually I was trying for triangular... LOL
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11:13:38 <Alberth> Hopefully it will work out
11:13:40 <kamnet> Looks like a neat implementation
11:14:31 <Alberth> thanks for trying to realize my suggestion :)
11:15:39 <Wolf01> I found the DAY_TICK way too much complex
11:15:57 <Wolf01> then I decided for that
11:17:06 <kamnet> I'm playing w/ ChillCore's patch pack and I've found that pushing the daylength factor more than 40 causes some issues.
11:17:26 <Wolf01> pushing it more than 4 ahould arelady cause issues
11:17:34 <kamnet> Already found that pushing it beyond 14 messes with how much I make on short deliveries with RVs
11:19:48 <kamnet> But I don't play for profit so much as I play for fun and sandboxing
11:20:02 <Wolf01> yesterday I tried to play with the old implementation, I was able to repay the borrow and purchase an aircraft after 8 days of game, using a single bus as my only source of income between 2 cities at 20-25 tiles
11:24:54 <Wolf01> now I must think how to handle the leap year
11:25:33 <Wolf01> mmmh, in the same way it's handled currently if IsLeapYear
11:27:31 <Alberth> If that worked in RL, I'd start a bus comapny right away :)
11:30:17 <kamnet> How much fare are ya charging though??
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11:50:21 <Chris_Booth> andythenorth: stumble is not your friend
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12:10:46 <Andel> non-openttd Q, if I may?
12:11:01 <DorpsGek> LordAro: topic [<channel>]
12:13:22 <Andel> how can I remove DRM from WMAs (pref for free)...
12:13:55 <Andel> might download that :-)
12:14:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Andel: obviously download a pirated copy, like everybody else :p
12:14:40 <Andel> (I want to listen to an album from zune in the car on the HDD drive)
12:14:46 <Alberth> or don't use anything with a DRM on it
12:15:26 <LordAro> hmmm, might use that to bypass iplayer restrictions... :)
12:15:26 <Ylioppilas> steal everything, be a rebel
12:16:15 <Alberth> Ylioppilas: you believe that until everybody starts stealing from you
12:16:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Andel: well, the next alternative would be playback and record into a "free" format
12:16:52 <Ylioppilas> I was trying to be ironic
12:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on your value of "free" that'd be "ogg" or "mp3"
12:18:12 <Alberth> Ylioppilas: doesn't really work on a text-only medium
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12:24:51 <Razmir> Hi, these two lines in changelog of beta version caught my attention
12:24:51 <Razmir> - Feature: Chat directly to the server or a bot/admin/IRC channel monitoring the server (r21000)
12:24:51 <Razmir> - Feature: Remote administration (r20975-r20963)
12:24:51 <Razmir> Can someone push me, please, in a right direction to find some information about that?
12:26:55 <Wolf01> what I need to change to add a new setting in the advanced settings? I added it to settings.h, added the variable in settings_type.h, the string in english.txt, but I don't remember what I missed, the game compiles but the setting doesn't appear
12:27:07 <Alberth> hmm, wiki needs an update for that
12:27:37 <frosch123> Wolf01: there is also something in settings_gui.cpp
12:28:34 <frosch123> search for SettingEntry and SettingsPage
12:29:35 <Wolf01> aaah, I didn't find it in the gui folder in visual studio, thanks
12:30:28 * andythenorth is currently very glad that FISH has no cargo sprites
12:30:35 <andythenorth> this copy and paste business is boring
12:30:44 <andythenorth> 1 hour just to resize a ship
12:31:53 <andythenorth> if there were cargo sprites, add another couple of hours :P
12:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> well... there is this open suggestion about composite vehicle sprites :p
12:32:49 <Wolf01> good, now I only need to figure out how to display these values: 1,2,3,4,6,12 :D
12:32:51 <andythenorth> I believe *someone* has a half finished java app to recolor sprites before encoding them
12:33:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: search for "one of many"?
12:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: e.g. the map sizes?
12:33:57 <peter1138> map sizes are in bits
12:34:00 <Wolf01> I would have liked more something like <x>
12:34:29 <peter1138> valid value in the config is 6 to 11
12:39:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i was under the impression that the <> get automatically added depending on the setting type
12:46:29 <welshdragon> so, when will we get the 1.1.x version of OpenTTD?
12:48:39 <andythenorth> definitely, without question, or your money back
12:48:51 <andythenorth> or alternatively....when it's ready
12:49:21 <welshdragon> ah well, i've got the unofficial 1.0.5 build of OpenTTD
12:49:43 <planetmaker> you could get the official beta2
12:50:20 <frosch123> [13:46] <welshdragon> so, when will we get the 1.1.x version of OpenTTD? <- when the Welsh translation is up-to-date :p
12:50:51 <welshdragon> frosch123, i'll do some strings soon
12:52:03 <Chris_Booth> I only ever remember one welsh word popdiping(microwave) best word ever
12:52:37 <Chris_Booth> not sure if it have got the spelling right
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12:59:01 <Chris_Booth> walse also has the worlds slows dogs (araf)
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13:37:53 <Wolf01> uhm, if I want to display another string as setting value, like it does the pathfinding setting, how do I proceed?
13:43:11 <Alberth> afaik, those strings are directly under the description string
13:45:29 <Wolf01> yes, but I can't understand how to bind the stringID with the value
13:48:40 <Alberth> first value, first string, second value, second string, etc ? no idea about holes in such a range though, I would expect that not to be allowed, but you could check the setting rendering code how it computes the stringid from a vaue
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13:50:30 <Wolf01> no, no holes, I just use values from 0 to 5 and then display a custom string like pf does
13:53:38 <Wolf01> I tried searching what does the pf setting but seem not to do anything different
13:55:12 <Alberth> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_DEFAULT_SIGNAL_TYPE ?
13:56:20 <Wolf01> english.txt? I'm just under
13:56:20 <Wolf01> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_PATHFINDER_FOR_SHIPS_OPF :Original {BLUE}(Recommended)
13:56:20 <Wolf01> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_PATHFINDER_FOR_SHIPS_NPF :NPF
13:56:20 <Wolf01> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_PATHFINDER_FOR_SHIPS_YAPF :YAPF {RED}(Not recommended)
13:59:21 <Alberth> so how is it not working?
13:59:35 <Wolf01> it shows the number instead of the string
14:00:26 <Wolf01> if you want to give it a try
14:02:02 <Alberth> did you set MS in src/table/settings.h, like in the ship path finder, line 406 ?
14:07:11 <Wolf01> and the setting value must start from 0, not from 1
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14:16:27 * ZirconiumX looking at wolf01's patch, and is confused as to why you need to convert the date to a fake year, but is stupid, so will probably not get the answer
14:17:36 <Wolf01> because I didn't have the day, but I'm rewriting that
14:17:58 <ZirconiumX> good enough answer
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15:27:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you know what? as soon as it is thawing, the forum is back to a readable state again :)
15:29:32 <SpComb> not in the spirit, I see
15:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not about spirit. it's more about red text on bright background phyiscally hurts my eyes
15:37:15 <Alberth> so you have a lot of reading to do now :)
15:47:37 <Eddi|zuHause> did anyone ever try to implement a "shift register"-like way to distribute cargo over same industries at a station? e.g. if you have a cargo, and industries A, B and C at the station accept cargo, the station stores a fifo-list [A,B,C]. on delivery of cargo, the first item gets popped, cargo delivered to that industry, and pushed back at the end, so it's now [B,C,A], then [C,A,B] and again [A,B,C]
15:48:48 <Eddi|zuHause> if an industry stops accepting the cargo, it gets removed from the list
15:49:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if a new industry appears, or an industry accepts cargo again, it gets pushed at the end
15:49:14 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: afaik it works that way...
15:49:33 <planetmaker> if they're within range
15:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: since when?
15:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: as far as i can think back, only ever the closest industry got cargo
15:50:17 <planetmaker> the closest accepting one
15:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and this is about three industries accepting the same cargo
15:50:41 <planetmaker> the issue with the sawmill as you might refer to: it continues to accept. Just not produce more
15:50:58 <planetmaker> that's what I'm talking about, too ;-)
15:51:21 <planetmaker> I'm sure there's an interesting PBI savegame from the publicserver about that somewhere
15:51:42 <planetmaker> I learnt a lot about station spread, rectangles and differences between providing and accepting areas
15:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but not all industry sets implement an acceptance limit. so the game needs to provide other means to allow the distribution of incoming cargo
15:56:15 <ABCRic> distribution of cargo in this case would be useful, yes
15:57:27 <ABCRic> I have this savegame where I transport massive amounts of oil to a station with several refineries in range
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15:59:18 <ABCRic> I have set the behavior parameter to allow unlimited acceptance of cargo, so it only overflows to other refineries when the amount reaches 65535
16:00:08 <SmatZ> why is grep so incredibly slow :(
16:00:42 <dihedral> SmatZ, try using grep in a ram disk :-)
16:04:14 <SmatZ> dihedral: it doesn't really help
16:04:31 <SmatZ> cat $file | while read LINE; do...
16:04:43 <SmatZ> then I "grep $LINE" for some patterns
16:04:51 <SmatZ> like, 100 lines per second
16:04:55 <__ln___> SmatZ: try LC_ALL=C grep
16:05:32 <SmatZ> __ln___: it doesn't help
16:05:48 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: use awk to execute stuff depending on pattern matching?
16:05:58 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: I would have to learn awk :)
16:06:22 <SmatZ> maybe I can "grep -e pat1 -e pat2 -e pat3 $FILE" instead of "cat $FILE"
16:06:23 <dihedral> does grep not alreay read files?
16:06:44 <SmatZ> dihedral: I can't do that in that case, there is further processing
16:07:01 <dihedral> "<pat1>|<pat2>|<pat3>"
16:07:11 <SmatZ> probably creating the accepting automaton takes a lot of time
16:07:30 <dihedral> SmatZ, implement it in perl :-P
16:07:32 <SmatZ> dihedral: are you sure it would work?
16:07:32 <dihedral> that'll be fast enough i guess ^^
16:07:54 <dihedral> i'd assume the slow part is not grep
16:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: awk is really simple... like "awk '/pattern1/{ do stuff1 }' '/pattern2/{ do stuff2 }'"
16:08:59 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: thanks, I will give it a try :)
16:09:48 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: if you can't "do stuff" in awk, use system(.) to execute shell commands ;)
16:10:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21741 /trunk/src/network/network_admin.cpp: -Fix (r21668): Some white space slipped past the commit hook
16:11:37 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: in the simplest case, "awk /pattern/" does the same as "grep pattern"
16:11:42 <dihedral> thank you planetmaker :-)
16:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly being "grep -E pattern"
16:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not sure about that
16:15:39 <dihedral> i'll be back later :-)
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16:38:17 <kamnet> oops, trouble w/ tt-forums. :-(
16:42:23 <ABCRic> supermop: it said it was a syntax error :P
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17:02:46 <ABCRic> at least netsplits here a lot less frequent than in another server I've been... they'd happen at least twice a day
17:03:02 <supermop> maybe it is just a stement of fact
17:03:37 <ABCRic> Hmm... I'd guess he's searching for 32bpp stuff?
17:03:44 <supermop> he wants the world to know that he searches graphics
17:03:54 <supermop> likely he is looking for 32bpp grfs
17:04:15 <ABCRic> And, instead of using the search feature, is waiting for someone to direct him?
17:04:32 <LordAro> perhaps someone like Kogut should talk to him? (both Polish)
17:07:34 <DJNekkid> what is the default value for Railtypes Action0 property11 ? The curve speed modifier
17:08:41 <ABCRic> wait, there's something wrong here...
17:09:12 <ABCRic> I stopped servicing an industry and the rating was at 3%, but now it's going up...
17:18:54 <frosch123> DJNekkid: 0 for normail rail/elrail, 1 for monorail, 2 for maglev
17:19:09 <DJNekkid> frosch123: oki, ty :D
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17:38:59 <LordAro> is that what's known as a net-split?
17:40:55 <ABCRic> two servers lose connection
17:41:26 <ABCRic> breaks part of the network structure
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18:10:31 * LordAro wonders which is the better forever loop - for(;;) or while(true) ....
18:12:32 <ABCRic> iirc for(;;) is the most used
18:13:33 <andythenorth> while(true) is easier to deadlock in my experience (of employing developers)
18:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause> while (true) looks semantically cleaner to make obvious what it's doing...
18:14:17 <LordAro> for(;; ) is the one most used in my special c++ book (that alberth knows about ;) ), but (and i know it's a different language) the noai example on the wiki uses while(true)
18:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> while(true) will be easier to explain to people who have very little coding experience
18:15:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and it will be available in more languanges
18:16:01 <andythenorth> I never grokked while()
18:16:05 <andythenorth> I always use for
18:16:30 <andythenorth> but I learnt it in BBC basic when I was about 9, so that influences things
18:16:44 <Wolf01> I can't use for (;;) in vbasic, so I go for while ;)
18:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't express "for(;;)" in python-syntax, but "while(true)" can be trivially ported
18:17:13 <LordAro> while(true) { Eddi = true; }
18:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and there are many more languages like that
18:17:53 <Eddi|zuHause> for example in pascal, for-loops are guaranteed to terminate
18:17:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ach
18:18:04 <andythenorth> the python for is better, so...
18:18:24 <andythenorth> it was 'for i in xyz' that persuaded me to python
18:18:59 <andythenorth> in EMCA-script type languages, you'd dick about with getting a list of objects, getting the length, doing for i = index, i <= length, i++
18:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this is about the special case of a loop that will not end on a certain condition [but rather either by powerdown or a break-statement]
18:19:23 <andythenorth> normally, in my world, those are very bad
18:19:33 <andythenorth> they tend to freeze browsers :P
18:19:53 <andythenorth> although if it's a control loop for a flash game, or a progress bar it's valid
18:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: typical usage for these loops is interactive GUIs. they look like "while(world has not ended yet) { get next event; process event }"
18:20:44 <andythenorth> I must have been writing them wrong all these years :P
18:21:16 <andythenorth> in the places I write code, it's quite high level - attach event handlers to objects
18:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and in the case of NoAIs, they die/go bankrupt when the loop ends
18:21:26 <andythenorth> handle callbacks when routines complete
18:21:35 <andythenorth> ok, that would make complete sense
18:21:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, they have also those loops, but you don't usually need to see them
18:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> because the structure of the loop is always the same. there's nothing interesting to change there
18:22:28 <SpComb> for _ in itertools.repeat(0) : ...
18:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: that does a lot more than "for (;;)"
18:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: you don't know what sideeffects "itertools.repeat" may have
18:24:28 <SpComb> yeah, it isn't semantically the same
18:24:31 <supermop> whoa there was another one
18:24:41 <SpComb> but curiously, I'm fairly sure itertools.repeat is implemented as a while loop :)
18:24:46 <SpComb> although it's actually in C
18:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: as far as i can see, m4 has 8 free bits currently
18:27:31 <andythenorth> do bits have to be stored adjacent locations?
18:27:37 <andythenorth> for each property?
18:36:38 <Hirundo> andythenorth: what do you want to store?
18:37:18 <andythenorth> that's never going to fit in the map array :D
18:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, does not have to be adjacent
18:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the map accessors, something like "GetSecondRoadtypeOwner", will take care of the bitstuffing
18:38:37 <andythenorth> so are there any rules / heuristics / idiocies about what to put where?
18:39:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: everything except the two roadtype IDs should already be stored
18:40:05 <Alberth> LordAro: in C++; for (i=0; i<10; i++) { ... } is just a short hand for i=0; while (i<10) { ... ; i++ } so it does not matter much :)
18:40:12 <andythenorth> and 1 bit is missing for the owner of roadtype 1
18:40:59 <Hirundo> the math (13 + 8 = 18?) doesn't seem to add up
18:41:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you sure that is needed?
18:41:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no, I'm sure of almost nothing about map bits :)
18:41:24 <andythenorth> this is why I ask
18:41:41 <andythenorth> ideally someone else might find this an interesting problem and join in
18:42:03 <andythenorth> I reckon I can write the drawing code, and probably a lot of the construction / removal / cost code
18:42:11 <Hirundo> If we assume, towns will never build anything but road, the 8 bits provided by m4 are fine to sore the two IDs
18:42:27 <andythenorth> I don't know if we can assume that?
18:42:40 <andythenorth> (I reckon I can't write much the map / newgrf interface code)
18:43:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: i wouldn't assume that. but assume towns can build more than one road type, in what situation does the town need two road types on the tile, instead of replacing the roadtype?
18:43:24 <Eddi|zuHause> if town can only ever have one roadtype on the tile, one can make sure that it's always swapped to be the first
18:43:40 <andythenorth> who knows what towns might do in future?
18:43:41 <ABCRic> why would towns build other road-types besides basic road?
18:43:58 <Hirundo> Else we might as well shuffle some stuff around to use the other free bits
18:44:06 <andythenorth> in a sane world, they would build something *compatible* with basic ROAD
18:44:14 <andythenorth> but it might be dirt road or something else
18:44:23 <andythenorth> or - Pikka's suggestion - 'canal roads'
18:44:31 <andythenorth> which would be Venice :P
18:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> ABCRic: dirt road [early], cobblestone road [industrial], asphalt road [modern]
18:45:19 <Hirundo> e.g. move the road works counter to m4 and use m7 bits 4..0 for the 2nd road owner
18:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21742 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt swedish.txt):
18:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
18:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: swedish - 3 changes by Ledel
18:45:25 <Alberth> but towns are always one tile level above sea
18:45:42 <ABCRic> Alberth: who knows, that might change :)
18:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you move around bits, you must handle loading old savegames in afterloadgame
18:46:12 <Hirundo> hmm... you could write a patch to swap tram owner and road works counter already, to remove the OWNER_TOWN hack
18:46:56 <andythenorth> Hirundo: does that need savegame handling?
18:47:12 <Hirundo> a good exercise for the stuff to come, I'd reckon :)
18:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it's practially _only_ savegame handling. the swapping around in the map accessors is trivial :)
18:48:27 <andythenorth> what has to be done
18:49:01 <andythenorth> but it's somewhere to commit to...
18:51:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in road_map.h (or similar) you have lines like "return GB(_m4,0,4)", which define the bits used in the map array which need shuffling around, and in afterloadgame you check for the savegame version in your new version bump, and have to read the old bits and store them at the new location. there should be examples of that happening already
18:57:10 <andythenorth> it does suck though :P
18:57:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'd first clone a clean openttd into the repo. Then start to modify it ;-)
18:57:54 <planetmaker> or possibly merge, if the repo already exists
18:58:07 <planetmaker> rather pull cross-repo
18:58:10 <andythenorth> I have a local repo, but not much useful in it
18:58:15 <planetmaker> hg pull where-openttd-trunk-is
18:58:22 <planetmaker> in your road types repo
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19:00:03 <andythenorth> planetmaker: in redmine, what should Root directory be in repository settings?
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19:17:45 <ZirconiumX> mibbit's acting wierd today
19:19:48 <ABCRic> ZirconiumX: use a non-web client ;)
19:20:07 <ZirconiumX> I won't if my life depends on it
19:20:19 <deepa> At least use something other than Mibbit then
19:20:39 <Xaroth> what reason might that be?
19:20:52 <ZirconiumX> I got hijacked, and the virus got to port 1023 OPEN before giving up
19:21:09 <ZirconiumX> I can't go with a security hole as big as that
19:21:27 <Xaroth> then you fail at securing your own machine?
19:22:18 <ABCRic> ZirconiumX: use a decent non-web client, then
19:22:20 <ZirconiumX> I don't have a pc, I use a mac , which is somewhat safer, and there are no viruses and a few trojans
19:22:31 <ZirconiumX> ChatZilla was the one I used
19:22:43 <deepa> ZirconiumX: would you tell us more about this virus that hijacked you?
19:22:45 <andythenorth> ZirconiumX: there are mac viruses
19:22:52 <Xaroth> ZirconiumX: use irssi.
19:23:07 <planetmaker> ZirconiumX: and why don't you continue to use it?
19:23:12 <ABCRic> ZirconiumX: I'm using ChatZilla
19:23:28 <planetmaker> guess what client I use right now?
19:23:35 <ZirconiumX> I'd love to, but I couldn't tell you more, but a) I don't know any more and b) I feel safer using mibbit
19:23:50 <Xaroth> according to CTCP, 'is present' :P
19:24:03 <planetmaker> be sure that it's not safer ;-)
19:24:05 <deepa> 19:21 < ZirconiumX> I got hijacked, and the virus <snip>
19:24:05 <deepa> 19:22 < ZirconiumX> I don't have a pc, I use a mac , which is somewhat safer, and there are no viruses and a few trojans
19:24:28 <deepa> I'm just overreacting then
19:24:55 <ZirconiumX> the problem is with irc, we're all servers which information can be sent
19:25:03 <planetmaker> deepa: how many % of the computers online do you think are back-doored and trojaned?
19:25:27 <planetmaker> ZirconiumX: use ircs ;-)
19:25:39 <Xaroth> [ZirconiumX]: the problem is with irc, we're all servers which information can be sent << technically your client is not a 'server' .
19:25:49 <Xaroth> as it -shouldn't- allow connections until you tell it to :P
19:26:39 <deepa> ABCRic: I TOOK OUT THE IRRELEVANT PART
19:26:55 <ZirconiumX> I do prefer mibbit, because of the customisations, amongst other things
19:27:01 <deepa> my terminal got something so irssi's layout screwed up, didn't see caps-lock
19:27:57 <deepa> planetmaker: you don't see the hilarity in saying "I got a virus" and thenn a minute saying "there are no viruses for my system"?
19:29:21 <ZirconiumX> You can keep quiet and make some people think your stupid, or you can speak out and remove all doubt <---- the former is currently what I'm doing
19:30:40 <Xaroth> You claiming there are no viruses for the mac already did that
19:30:44 <ZirconiumX> meh still Please wait...
19:31:06 <ZirconiumX> the hilarity has been and gone
19:31:27 <Xaroth> you were using a mac, right
19:31:39 <Xaroth> non-root-users aren't allowed to open ports <1024
19:31:47 <Xaroth> ... so you were using irc.. as root
19:32:42 <ZirconiumX> this means that I control my system the others control there's
19:33:11 <ZirconiumX> also there is only one superuser, which is the correct term for root
19:33:25 <ZirconiumX> 'Don't make a hash of it...'
19:34:18 <ZirconiumX> 19:31 ZirconiumX also there is only one superuser, which is the correct term for root <--- which is the correct term
19:34:49 <ZirconiumX> root is the same as superuser, just AFAIK everyone calls it superuser, all the geeks anyway
19:35:20 <ZirconiumX> on a completely unrelated note, what shell do you use?
19:35:40 * ZirconiumX wishes that fish would work with Darwin, or libiconv would
19:36:15 <Xaroth> no, root is not the same as superuser
19:36:22 <Xaroth> as on other os', it is named differently
19:36:53 <Xaroth> on windows, for example, there's a default 'Administrator' which is the superuser, but you can make any user a superuser
19:37:04 <dihedral> ZirconiumX, no "geek" calles it that
19:37:09 <Xaroth> on novell it's either supervisor and/or 'admin'
19:37:15 <ZirconiumX> hmmm, Windows is DOS based though
19:37:26 <Xaroth> what rock have you been under?
19:37:44 <dihedral> must have hit you right on the head ^^
19:37:59 <Xaroth> windows isn't 'dos-based' anymore since NT or so
19:38:11 <dihedral> Dear Sir/Madam, Windows is the name of a number of operating systems
19:38:13 <Rubidium> it's still (mostly) bug-for-bug compatible with DOS
19:38:21 <andythenorth> always useful, an OS argument :P
19:38:25 <andythenorth> can we code something?
19:38:28 <andythenorth> or write a spec?
19:38:42 <Xaroth> andythenorth: write me a newgrf packet for teh admin port
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19:38:52 <Rubidium> yay for the decision to use / for command line parameters in DOS back when it did not have paths
19:39:22 <dihedral> you really think that would have made a difference if it had not been the case?#
19:39:47 <Rubidium> it would have made the life of a lot of people much easier
19:40:08 <Rubidium> if they would use / for paths as well
19:40:25 <dihedral> i just doubt they would have done that :-P
19:40:52 <Rubidium> they've done loads of things to stay backward compatible
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19:41:04 <Xaroth> funny how this conversation goes from 'viruses on macs' to 'irc as root' to 'windows and/or dos' to path usage in dos
19:41:21 <Rubidium> e.g. a special mode for the memory allocator so some old applications that read/write memory after freeing it still work
19:41:39 <planetmaker> Xaroth: biological viruses can do that, too. It's called evolution and mutation there :-P
19:41:47 <dihedral> Xaroth, that is because those who started the discussion of have nothing valuable to contribute :-P
19:41:48 <planetmaker> bad analogy? Maybe :-P
19:41:56 <Xaroth> planetmaker: for that we invented the darwin awards
19:42:02 <Xaroth> mutations during our evolution.
19:42:27 <planetmaker> darwin awards are for those who get themselves out of the gene pool in a creative way
19:42:40 <planetmaker> not for mutating. Your a mutant as well as I
19:43:40 <ZirconiumX> I thought the darwin award was for dieing/doing the stupidest action possible, thus improving the spieces *AHEM*
19:44:46 <glx> <@Rubidium> e.g. a special mode for the memory allocator so some old applications that read/write memory after freeing it still work <-- the simcity special handling ?
19:45:10 <Rubidium> yeah, something like that
19:48:13 <planetmaker> "New Chewing Gum Flavor: Explosive" <-- I like that :-P
19:48:44 <ZirconiumX> Chin up, old chap, by gum
19:50:01 <ZirconiumX> windows isn't 'dos-based' anymore since NT or so <---- wikipedia disagrees, All Windows NT 32-bit versions ship with files from DOS 5.0
19:50:21 <ZirconiumX> Version 8.0 (WinXP) - DOS boot disks created by XP and later contain files from WinME. The internal DOS is still 5.0
19:51:14 <glx> command.com disapeared with XP
19:51:21 <Xaroth> there's a BIG difference between being based on something, and shipping stuff with it for compatibility reasons
19:54:11 <Alberth> planetmaker: I am quite sure your average explosive tastes horrible
19:55:00 * ZirconiumX chew on the explosive flavour chewing gum and turns bright yellow
21:30:59 <dihedral> orudge, the theme changed again?
21:31:37 <Rubidium> dihedral: yes, the snow melted already
21:31:51 <dihedral> Rubidium, depends where you are :-P
21:32:32 <Rubidium> dihedral: I doubt the forum's theme is location/weather aware
21:32:48 <dihedral> could be interesting :-D
21:32:50 <Rubidium> as the forum theme doesn't feature snow anymore, it must've melted
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21:47:17 <JOHN-SHEPARD> are there games up
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21:54:06 <andythenorth> should livery refitting be different from cargo refit?
21:54:19 <andythenorth> there was some talk about this recently somewhere
21:54:54 <frosch123> yes, but it was not very confincing
21:58:24 <andythenorth> cargo subtypes are not very convincing either
21:58:35 <andythenorth> more....annoying :)
21:58:43 <andythenorth> maybe that's my fault - too many cargos :P
22:01:38 <dihedral> Wolf01, line 74 of the last patch in your thread: would it not make sense if the setting was stored in the savegame, so that it remains constant thoughout the course of the game?
22:04:08 <Wolf01> in any case you should increment _fake_date every 1,2,3,4,6 or 12 days
22:08:23 <dihedral> but could it not have an odd effect on the game if you mangle with that setting in the middle of the game?
22:09:07 <Wolf01> maybe between savegames
22:09:11 <dihedral> either way - it's a very small patch for what it does :-)
22:10:11 <Wolf01> I should save the fake date between savegames, because every time restarts from the real date
22:10:19 <dihedral> the daily loop routine, does that then get executed multiple times per day?
22:10:32 <dihedral> Wolf01, yes, that would be good
22:11:12 <dihedral> do not forget that ai's will also need the fake date
22:11:20 <Wolf01> in that routine there is _date_fract which is increased mutiple times a day, it might be used for hours
22:12:20 <dihedral> also, the admin network will like to know of the fake date
22:12:30 <dihedral> and there is a daily loop in the network code
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