IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-12-01
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07:24:34 <andythenorth> snows' a no here
07:24:45 <andythenorth> anyone using FISH?
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08:49:14 <andythenorth> what does random() return?
08:49:29 <andythenorth> it doesn't seem to be a C++ function, at least as far as google can tell me
08:49:40 <andythenorth> I assume it's ottd specific, or I'm using google wrong
08:50:13 <Terkhen> it is, see src/core/random_func.hpp
08:52:41 <andythenorth> not sure it's what I need
08:52:59 <andythenorth> I want to generate a random number in range 0-0.5
08:53:08 <andythenorth> I thought random / 2 would do it
08:53:36 <andythenorth> maybe I use C++ rand?
08:54:47 <Terkhen> hmm... IIRC if you use C/C++ rand in map generation code you will get different results with the same seed
08:55:23 <__ln__> with different implementations, that is
08:55:26 <andythenorth> that would be a problem
08:55:39 <andythenorth> in that case I need to go back a step
08:55:44 <Terkhen> although OpenTTD random functions are not made to work wtih floats anyways...
08:55:56 <andythenorth> I don't really understand the landscape generation pipeline yet
08:56:10 <andythenorth> I know there are multiple iterations of perlin noise, then seemingly the application of the sine function(s)
08:56:30 * Terkhen would just use InteractiveRandomRange to get a number between 0 and 500 and then divide by 1000.0
08:56:44 <andythenorth> that won't be deterministic for any given map seed though?
08:57:05 <Terkhen> probably not... as soon as you use floating point, the result is platform dependent
08:57:44 <Terkhen> this problem might not matter in map generation code, I don't know
08:57:53 <andythenorth> it will probably turn out that my arithmetic hacks can be turned into a nice continuous function :P
08:57:57 <andythenorth> but that's beyond me :(
09:00:40 <Terkhen> hmm... you mean something to finetune TGP?
09:02:04 <andythenorth> for different types of landscape, yes
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09:07:18 <Terkhen> hmm... IIRC the parts of tgp you hacked yesterday already used floats, so using normal random should be fine
09:07:30 <Rubidium> C's random doesn't return a floating point either
09:08:29 <Rubidium> InteractiveRandom shouldn't be used in map generation either
09:08:54 <Terkhen> ooh, right, you told me the same when I was fixing the trees
09:09:01 * Terkhen shouldn't give advice before coffee
09:09:58 <andythenorth> Terkhen: go have coffee :P
09:10:07 <Rubidium> but... ((double)Random()) >> 33 probably works
09:10:29 <Rubidium> although you won't get exactly 0.5 that way
09:10:39 <andythenorth> any random here that isn't based on the map seed is likely foolish
09:14:32 <Rubidium> (Random() / 8579934592.0f) <- try that
09:15:46 <andythenorth> Rubidium: thanks
09:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> have you guys heard the news? coding subways is only 10 hours of work!
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09:16:27 <andythenorth> that's less time than I've spent abusing tgp !
09:16:41 <andythenorth> if two people do it, it will be twice as fast
09:16:47 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: ofcourse it is
09:17:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the wise people at the development forum said it. it must be accurate.
09:18:00 <Rubidium> svn co svn://tron.homeunix.org/simutrans/simutrans/trunk && cd trunk && <mass replace simutrans with OpenTTD> && compile && presto
09:18:57 <Terkhen> how easy is to talk about other people's work :)
09:20:21 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: cool, so we'll have subways at around 20:30 CET today.
09:21:00 <Terkhen> the guy who said that is waiting for someone else, maybe we could tell him he's the right person for doing the job in 10 hours
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09:25:26 <andythenorth> must be christmas
09:25:39 <peter1138> no, it's the whole "hey, let's use global variables, yeah, that'd be great!" thing
09:25:46 <peter1138> oh, and not using floats for some reason
09:25:55 <andythenorth> there's floats in my bit
09:26:02 <andythenorth> but I don't really understand it
09:26:33 <andythenorth> I am doing bad things to HeightMapSineTransform
09:26:57 <peter1138> cos i realised that landscape variety needs to be another perlin noise map
09:27:05 <peter1138> not the dodgy crap it uses right now
09:27:08 <andythenorth> I don't understand variety
09:27:11 <andythenorth> it seems to be fail
09:27:24 <andythenorth> If I turn variety to max, I seem to get no mountains
09:27:38 <andythenorth> which is not variety in my view, and I would like my money back :P
09:27:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it seems to me to tune the patchyness of a mpa wrt different landscape styles
09:27:50 <peter1138> but yeah, hence i wanted to do it properly
09:27:59 <peter1138> but it would've meant rewriting the perlin noise
09:28:01 <planetmaker> e.g. separation of mountain ranges from planes from water
09:28:13 <andythenorth> that might be possible improperly
09:28:25 <andythenorth> but somehow I think it will be a kludge with some odd effects
09:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> make a tectonics based map generator! :p
09:28:50 <andythenorth> currently I have some arithmetic hacks that produce:
09:28:53 <peter1138> tgp uses this fixed point maths in some vague way to avoid using floats
09:29:05 <peter1138> even though using floats has absolutely no adverse effects there
09:29:24 <andythenorth> I've managed to approximate: coastal plain <-> coastal mountains <-> mid-height plateaus <-> high mountains / deep ravines
09:29:33 <peter1138> never mind that it's a strange implementation meant for speed
09:29:42 <andythenorth> there are some pleasingly bizarre ring effects that Eddi|zuHause indicates are due to sine function
09:29:50 <peter1138> andythenorth, perlin on top of perlin is the way to go
09:29:57 <peter1138> you will always get mountains and flat vits
09:30:01 <peter1138> cos it gets normalised
09:30:18 <andythenorth> the current mountain implementation is a bit broke
09:30:27 <andythenorth> if you do, can I help :P
09:30:45 <andythenorth> you missed discussion yesterday about landscape presets?
09:30:47 * peter1138 gets the current state of the code
09:31:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you know, the more time peter1138 spends on tgp, the less time he can spend on roadtypes _p
09:32:12 <andythenorth> roadtypes can wait
09:32:15 <peter1138> the more time i spend on minecraft...
09:32:27 <peter1138> (yes, i did write a minecraft server...)
09:32:38 <andythenorth> not having good map gen puts me off starting new games
09:32:42 <andythenorth> lack of roadtypes doesn't
09:33:16 <peter1138> i guess the main thing is to C++orize it
09:33:21 <peter1138> then i can use multiple heightmaps
09:33:26 * andythenorth wishes he could understand sine function
09:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's really simple: sinus is greek for bosom :p
09:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> every guy is supposed to understand that intuitively :p
09:35:32 <peter1138> it stretches the heightmap in the middle
09:36:05 <andythenorth> I'm in between understanding and not understanding :P
09:36:09 <peter1138> so you end up with steeper hills (heh, still limited to 1 tile) and larger areas of flat land at low and high altitudes (but not middle altitudes)
09:36:33 <peter1138> in fact the landscape variety also does a similar thing, heh
09:36:37 <peter1138> but with lookup tables
09:37:46 <andythenorth> so....to control base profile of landscape, the first octave is important?
09:38:48 <Eddi|zuHause> one "single pass" gives you very uniform landscape
09:38:49 <andythenorth> my hacks are trying to control what is adjusted by SineTransform
09:39:00 <andythenorth> I wonder if I need to go to an earlier step in pipeline
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09:40:40 <peter1138> how about i do my rewrite ;)
09:41:56 <andythenorth> no objections from me :P
09:42:09 <peter1138> there's another technique as well, called faultgen
09:42:39 <andythenorth> peter1138: discussion yesterday was about hiding lots of current confusing landscape settings and just giving presets
09:42:40 <peter1138> er, well, fault generation
09:42:43 <Eddi|zuHause> afair, the code is prepeared to handle many different map gemerators
09:42:47 <peter1138> my minecraft server calls it faultgen :)
09:42:51 <peter1138> andythenorth, *nod*
09:42:56 <andythenorth> 'lots of small islands' 'few small islands' 'few big islands'
09:43:09 <andythenorth> 'just mountains', 'just plains', 'mountains and plains'
09:43:34 <andythenorth> which seems to mostly depend on amplitude of low frequencies (for perlin noise)
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09:44:42 <peter1138> you'd think it does, but no
09:45:20 <andythenorth> wavelength of low frequencies is too long for ottd map scale?
09:45:31 <andythenorth> variations wouldn't show up meaningfully?
09:45:34 <peter1138> amplitude change from low to high frequencies changes the landscape from smooth to grainy
09:45:45 <peter1138> it's the change that matters, not the actual values
09:46:29 * andythenorth still on the wrong side of understanding then
09:46:55 <peter1138> i.e. a range of "16 8 4 2 1" will give you the same output (hopefully, heh) as "32 16 8 4 2"
09:47:27 <andythenorth> that makes sense
09:47:32 <andythenorth> looks scale free?
09:49:51 <andythenorth> so "32 2 32 2 32 2" is going to produce a landscape of peaks / ravines?
09:50:03 <andythenorth> but "8 4 8 8 4" is rolling hills?
09:53:04 <andythenorth> I knew it wouldn't be that simple :P
09:54:11 <norbert79> Hmm, talking about surface... Microsoft is developing a surface, which changes it's shape, like buttons would become real buttons.. I imagine Transport Tycoon being played on such surface :))
09:54:44 <andythenorth> norbert79: the smoke from the ships would burn your fingers
09:54:58 <norbert79> andythenorth: No, I weasn't talking about holodeck :D
09:55:12 <andythenorth> surface is just a big ipad, and as ipad is evil, ergo, surface is evil
09:55:36 <norbert79> surface is a normal english word, so Apple cannot patent it ergo surface is good :)
09:56:32 <Terkhen> it cannot be patented... yet
09:56:49 <norbert79> Ok, I will patent the word "the" and "a"... :)
09:57:24 <andythenorth> "Microsoft Surface is a trademark of Microsoft Corporation"
09:57:45 <norbert79> But not plain "Surface" :)
09:57:57 <norbert79> which i will also add to my patent list :D
09:58:05 <norbert79> god, I will become rich
09:59:54 <norbert79> Yeah, because I am going to have VY Canis Majoris :)
10:00:11 <norbert79> Sun... Pff, such a tiny one
10:00:12 <Terkhen> that's too far to give any economical benefit
10:00:46 <norbert79> Well, she cannot land on 'her planet' neither :)
10:02:00 <Terkhen> no, but her property affects Earth directly... owning other stars only make the owner the right person to sue for damages if the star goes nova
10:03:37 <norbert79> Well, pity, if it goes nova, noone could sue anyone about it :)
10:04:17 <norbert79> unless we are some few or more lightyears away...
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10:31:27 <andythenorth> anyone use FISH?
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10:37:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I usually add FISH to _every_ game I setup. But I guess your question is rather something on a tangent...
10:37:38 <planetmaker> Having them around doesn't meant that I use ships in every game, though...
10:37:48 <andythenorth> there is some feedback that it doesn't really fit the style of the game
10:37:51 <planetmaker> it's one of my default always-use newgrfs, though
10:37:59 <planetmaker> the capacity stuff?
10:38:15 <andythenorth> it's a bit like TTRS - nice, but not TTD
10:39:12 <andythenorth> well zimmlock expressly made TTRS different to original graphics :)
10:39:19 <andythenorth> he wanted to evolve the style artistically
10:39:23 <planetmaker> hm... I should re-animate the dead body of TTRS 3.10
10:39:36 <andythenorth> evolution of style wasn't my intention with FISH
10:39:47 <andythenorth> it's supposed to fit well to original / opengfx
10:40:11 <V453000> I think FISH is quite in the style of OpenGFX
10:41:34 <andythenorth> I'm not worried about it, just surprised
10:41:40 <andythenorth> I've had same feedback on FIRS
10:42:10 <V453000> hmm, FIRS is rather TTD
10:42:15 <andythenorth> FISH ships do look nothing like original ships
10:42:41 <planetmaker> I agree with V and Terkhen: the style of FISH fits
10:43:09 <planetmaker> The same with FIRS? Nah. It's perfect TTD style
10:43:29 <planetmaker> Btw, andythenorth: you should try FIRS with the nogrids newgrf. It looks stunning
10:43:30 <andythenorth> most ships have large areas of 'tan' (I think in lego colours), which has been bothering me for a while
10:43:32 <Terkhen> hmm... archlinux does not like my partition table
10:44:11 <andythenorth> woah, where did my grids go :O
10:44:19 <andythenorth> I feel agorophobic
10:45:23 <andythenorth> no boundaries on my landscape :D
10:45:37 <andythenorth> well it's pretty
10:45:41 <planetmaker> yep :-) The fields actually need some re-work. They still show the grids
10:45:45 <andythenorth> makes counting tiles for stations tricky :)
10:46:00 <planetmaker> But it makes your industries blend in damn well
10:46:12 <andythenorth> have to turn off signs for best effect :)
10:50:10 <peter1138> anyone know how much faster our perlin method is than the traditional seed-based one?
10:50:24 <andythenorth> multiple docks per station - this didn't get added while I was looking the other way did it?
10:50:41 <planetmaker> neither multiple airports per station
10:50:57 <andythenorth> my ships have to go round a long peninsula then
10:51:00 <peter1138> * The overal speedup should be 300% to 800% depending on CPU and memory speed.
10:51:16 <andythenorth> or I need a slightly silly transfer
10:51:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth, just build a channel?
10:51:39 <planetmaker> that's what they're made for ;-)
10:52:09 <andythenorth> I need a smaller ship
10:52:31 <andythenorth> I could use transfers (realistic) to rvs
10:52:40 <andythenorth> but that's a hassle for an industry on the coast
10:52:47 <andythenorth> when delivering supplies
10:53:03 <andythenorth> I have to deliver supplies to several oil wells
10:53:05 <planetmaker> if it's just a few tiles, extend the coast
10:53:11 <planetmaker> towards the industry
10:53:23 <andythenorth> they are on the coast already :P
10:53:40 <andythenorth> I have two of the smallest boats delivering to them
10:53:45 <andythenorth> 35t is too much ENSP though
10:53:57 <andythenorth> I could do the transfer to rvs thing, but it's hassle
10:54:07 <andythenorth> I need two smaller boats :D
10:54:10 <planetmaker> Also... ENSP are delivered via helicopter to the oil platform ;-)
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10:54:30 <planetmaker> In 1907 we had no off-shore
10:54:48 <andythenorth> transfer-at-sea would be useful
10:54:55 <planetmaker> oil rigs allow for that
10:55:01 <andythenorth> maybe I cheat and make an industry for it
10:55:04 <andythenorth> with 0 build cost
10:55:08 <planetmaker> or... industry suggestion: Overseas market ;-)
10:55:35 <planetmaker> duty-free market rather. Or contrabant market. Or both
10:55:48 <andythenorth> making an industry for at-sea-transfers is 'doing it wrong' yes / no?
10:56:21 <planetmaker> For now: No. In principle: yes. But the IMHO 'correct' solution is probably a longer shot.
10:56:51 <planetmaker> Correct would mean to implement newgrf ports
10:56:56 <andythenorth> can't just have bouys build the magic industry station tile?
10:57:05 <planetmaker> na. That's a hack
10:57:11 <planetmaker> Play TTDP for that :-P
10:57:24 <andythenorth> I could just transfer at a dock on the coast
10:57:30 <andythenorth> I need smaller ships still though
10:57:37 <andythenorth> maybe FISH has an update soon
10:58:06 <andythenorth> there is a small boat already for hauling logs
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11:05:40 * andythenorth feeds milk to the baby
11:05:51 <peter1138> average height is calculated wrongly
11:06:06 <peter1138> not gonna have any real sideaffects though
11:07:45 <peter1138> we're talking 0.4% out on a normal 256 map ;p
11:08:21 * andythenorth ponders releasing HEQS 1.0
11:08:29 <andythenorth> ho I forgot something
11:08:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: parameter for running costs?? ^ :D
11:09:31 <planetmaker> In the preps, yes
11:09:51 <andythenorth> I reckon if that's done, that's 1.0
11:10:02 <andythenorth> and if costs are 'wrong', players can work around it
11:10:23 * andythenorth has never 1.0-ed before :o
11:13:24 <Ammler> 1.1 or 1.0.1 might follow soon ;-)
11:20:43 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> I reckon if that's done, that's 1.0 <-- :-)
11:21:52 <peter1138> tgp uses a histogram
11:22:00 <peter1138> that isn't going to work with fp values
11:24:28 <planetmaker> oh, they work fine with fp
11:24:32 <planetmaker> you just need to bin it a bit
11:24:42 <peter1138> this uses raw values
11:24:47 <peter1138> so could be... huge
11:38:13 <Arie-> What could be wrong when my server doesn't receive an ack from the master server, but I am being queried by clients (at least, that's what I think "dbg: [net] [udp] queried from *.*.*.*" means
11:39:30 <Ammler> Arie-: you have some outgoing FW?
11:39:33 <DorpsGek> Ammler: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
11:40:49 <Arie-> something is even stranger
11:41:40 <Arie-> I restarted the server and now it says advertising successful
12:03:20 <andythenorth> nothing in cpp like an iterator? e.g. for i in x, do z
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12:27:59 * andythenorth thinks there must be an elegant way to handle conflicting industries when generating map
12:29:11 <andythenorth> cb28 gives me all I need
12:29:16 <andythenorth> but generating the list is interesting
12:29:24 <andythenorth> mine not near steel plant
12:29:32 <andythenorth> also implies steel plant not near mine
12:29:48 <andythenorth> I guess I just have to make a list in excel :P
12:30:17 * andythenorth wonders if FIRS website can do it
12:30:23 <norbert79> God, this is the worst winter day so far... We had 15 cm of snow this morning, now that partially melted, now it's raining, and instantly freezing on everything
12:30:45 <norbert79> just was at my car to get it cleaned off from ice a bit to be able to get in at office end
12:31:03 * norbert79 refuses to play winter terrain for the next 3 months
12:31:47 * andythenorth tries to think of a way to stuff industry IDs into some kind of iterable list structure
12:32:30 <andythenorth> is there any way to call a named macro *inside* a cpp include file?
12:32:32 <Rubidium> norbert79: oh... but the forum will go into winter mode "soon" :)
12:33:05 * andythenorth has the silver theme for the forum
12:33:09 <andythenorth> the others make my eyes bleed
12:33:20 * Terkhen likes the standard one
12:33:37 <andythenorth> its pretty. but the text contrast is bad for my eyes
12:37:16 * andythenorth ponders forcing some *max* distance between certain industries (fishing grounds and harbour)
12:38:06 <Terkhen> but it makes sense that harbours are near fishing grounds
12:38:36 <Terkhen> that would be nice, usually I have them in opposite corners of the map
12:39:02 <OwenS> norbert79: Nothing so bad here. In fact, bonus: University is closed :D
12:39:18 <norbert79> OwenS: Lucky one :)
12:39:37 <norbert79> OwenS: I wouldn't mind the cold, it's this icy rain...
12:39:48 <OwenS> BTW, people seen that the IANA are down to 7 free IPv4 /8s?
12:40:42 <OwenS> Yeah, since once they reach 5 they do a block allocation of 1 each for the RIRs
12:48:23 <b_jonas> time for me to get some ipv6 supporting software on my home router
12:49:18 <b_jonas> and hope that the ISP will support it
12:50:15 <b_jonas> wait, they want to what? charge separately for ipv6?
12:50:23 <b_jonas> shouldn't they like charge for ipv4 instead?
12:54:16 <Rubidium> they already do that, it's just hidden in your fee
12:54:31 <Rubidium> and it's quite likely you don't even have a guaranteed IPv4 address
12:56:40 <b_jonas> Rubidium: I know, I only have a dynamic ipv4 address
12:56:48 <b_jonas> I have to pay extra for static ipv4
12:56:54 <b_jonas> but why would I have to pay extra for ipv6?
12:57:03 <b_jonas> that doesn't make sense
12:57:34 <Rubidium> like you have to pay for "extra" bandwidth
12:58:27 <b_jonas> to clarify, I don't have to pay extra, but the homepage says there's currently a "test run" during which anyone can get ipv6 connection for free, and that, if I understand marketing lingo right, means they want to charge for it
12:59:27 <Noldo> or they are just framing it so that you feel you are getting something for free that "normally" would cost something
13:00:10 <b_jonas> Noldo: the page also says they're planning for introducing commercial ipv6 service "soon"
13:00:44 <Rubidium> given 80 "sets" of 6 numbers, how big is the chance that all of those sets have at least one duplicate number?
13:01:07 <b_jonas> Rubidium: 6 numbers chosen how?
13:01:28 <Rubidium> I would suppose randomly, but I've got the feeling that's not the case
13:01:46 <b_jonas> but from like what range?
13:03:31 <b_jonas> well, then the probability that there's no repetition in 6 numbers is (10*9*8*7*6*5)/10^6 which is 0.1512
13:04:58 <b_jonas> so the probability that there's a repetition in one group of 6 is 1 minus the above probability, which is 0.8488
13:05:36 <b_jonas> thus the probability that all 80 have at least one duplicate is the above to the 80th power, which is about 2.01*10^(-6)
13:05:59 <Rubidium> so it's quite safe to assume the numbers aren't randomly generated
13:06:18 <Rubidium> or at least there's a bad pseudo random generator at work
13:06:28 <b_jonas> or they are but not the way we assumed here (each 6*80 digit uniformly random and independent from each other)
13:06:40 <b_jonas> they could be random using some other distribution
13:08:09 <Rubidium> true, though I'd expect a bank handing out "random" authentication tokens would use something that's quite random and doesn't remove like 90% of the possibilities
13:08:24 <Rubidium> that makes their tokens so much weaker
13:09:03 <Rubidium> but then... I've seen this happen with two banks, so they probably use the same broken algorithm
13:20:46 <Arie-> hmm the advertising with the master server is failing again
13:20:57 <Arie-> while it was working when I started the server
13:33:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i just saw a date "10.08.109"
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14:11:58 <Belugas> i slute ya, sir andythenorth
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14:13:56 <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k/FauxFaux: leftover y2k bug
14:14:11 <Eddi|zuHause> 109 == 1900+109 = 2009
14:14:35 <ccfreak2k> That's less exciting.
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15:02:34 * andythenorth has some grumbles about cargo classes, specificall BULK
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15:03:56 <andythenorth> maybe I just change the FIRS cargos a bit
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15:17:07 <andythenorth> cotton travels in bales
15:18:25 <andythenorth> so does hemp and flax
15:18:32 <andythenorth> not really a bulk cargo
15:19:38 <andythenorth> but FIRS plant fibres overlaps with ECS FICR
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17:10:10 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: I have not seen hi.
17:10:31 <Rubidium> you can't wave that person; never been here
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17:54:54 <andythenorth> 42 industries, each needs distance checks for other industries in its chain
17:55:16 <andythenorth> ~124 distance checks to create
17:56:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
18:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> grr... i totally have a heisenbug...
18:01:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i can reproducably fix it by enabling any kind of debug output...
18:03:32 <glx> side effect with debug enabled ?
18:03:38 * andythenorth uses a coding anti-pattern in a bid to do the easy but dull work first
18:04:07 <andythenorth> this beer will help though
18:05:06 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: program behaves differently if called by "pythonw program.py" or "python program.py"
18:05:46 <Eddi|zuHause> or if "wx.App(False)" [don't redirect stdout/stderr to a window] or "wx.App(True)" is called
18:06:44 <glx> I guess CLI version is false by default and GUI is true
18:08:14 * andythenorth discovers need for quite a lot of refactoring :o
18:13:19 <andythenorth> peter1138: perlin? Or did you fall down a mineshaft?
18:13:26 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
18:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate when that happens :p
18:29:26 * andythenorth wonders how to make desert appear on mountains
18:29:35 <andythenorth> the answer is probably in landscape.cpp
18:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd grep for a function called MakeDesert...
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18:40:41 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: apparently it's even possible to use google maps's JS ui with your own tile data
18:42:10 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: aha. but he sounded like he had problems making the tiling, if you can't fit the whole uncompressed png into ram
18:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: That is the RIGHT answer!
18:43:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you get five points!
18:44:40 * Prof_Frink gives Eddi|zuHause crumble and custard
18:45:10 <Eddi|zuHause> err... i don't think we have the same idea what constitutes a dessert :p
18:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21366 /trunk/src/lang/ (unfinished/basque.txt unfinished/marathi.txt vietnamese.txt):
18:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: basque - 81 changes by Thadah
18:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: marathi - 4 changes by jcravi
18:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 2 changes by nglekhoi
18:46:02 <Prof_Frink> It's too cold for ice cream.
18:47:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
18:56:02 <LordAro> can i ask what's that supposed to show?
18:56:53 <LordAro> OK: what's that supposed to show?
18:57:11 <andythenorth> desert covering mountain
18:57:23 <andythenorth> normally it's limited to tiles below height level 5
18:58:12 <andythenorth> it's a hack on landscape.cpp, so a patch I guess
18:58:21 <andythenorth> it's trivial to try it yourself
18:58:50 <andythenorth> line 874 in landscape.cpp
18:59:04 <andythenorth> change '>= 4' to some bigger number
19:00:02 <bryjen> would deSSert mountains be in the toyland climate, look like whipped cream, and have a cherry on top? ;)
19:00:09 <peter1138> andythenorth, lol yes, i did
19:01:06 <LordAro> \me wonders if i can make it into a proper patch, with settings and everything
19:01:48 <andythenorth> gah, more settings :(
19:03:06 <andythenorth> server is slow for me - sorry in advance :P
19:03:28 <andythenorth> that crater is a side effect of abusing the sine transform
19:05:46 <peter1138> copying my files...
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19:19:15 <Markk> That's like one of the few words I know in deutsch.
19:20:36 <planetmaker> sounds definitely like the most used one.
19:21:51 <Markk> I wanted to learn a bit of german, so I just read thru de.wikipedia alot. :)
19:22:54 <Markk> planetmaker: Are you from Germany?
19:23:07 <planetmaker> at least I am in Germany now
19:23:39 <planetmaker> there where people use the greeting 'moin' ;-)
19:25:55 <planetmaker> who knows... only the cold Easterly breeze ;-)
19:28:32 <Markk> I like das Bundesrepublik Deutschland.
19:28:52 <Markk> Especially Berlin and the language like.
19:30:08 <Rubidium> Markk: then watch something like Lola Rennt
19:30:31 <planetmaker> oh indeed. Very good movie
19:31:04 <planetmaker> Or actually "Spur der Steine". A 1980s movie from the GDR.
19:31:59 <Markk> Only German movies I've seen is Wir Kinder vom Bahnhof Zoo and Der Untergang.
19:32:20 <planetmaker> The latter isn't bad either
19:32:33 <planetmaker> But not a merry movie
19:32:42 <Markk> Germans know how to do movies.
19:36:50 <Markk> How would you say "What's up?" or "How's it going?" in German?
19:37:00 <Markk> When you're just smalltalking with a person like.
19:37:08 <Markk> andythenorth: ah, cheers. :)
19:37:23 * andythenorth hasn't done german for, in der von achtzen jahre
19:37:23 <Rubidium> it depends on the person :)
19:37:25 <andythenorth> and may be rusty
19:38:06 <Ammler> andythenorth: your german sounds almost like Swiss German ;-)
19:38:20 <andythenorth> so does my french :P
19:39:05 * Rubidium wonders which is written the same in the most languages
19:39:11 <Markk> Does your french sounds like Swiss German like?
19:42:23 <Rubidium> yeah, that's probably more widely used than apartheid :)
19:42:51 <Rubidium> although it's amazing how many languages use apartheid verbatim
19:43:20 <Ammler> is that Dutch/Afrikaans?
19:43:58 <Markk> Rubidium: I guess at "Ja"
19:44:07 <andythenorth> brand names don't count :P
19:44:16 <andythenorth> anyway, american people call it legos
19:44:30 <Ammler> is/was there apartheid somewhere elese than in sa?
19:44:42 <Rubidium> originally, but it's also German, French, English, Spanish, Swedish, Italian, Danish, Norwegian, Portuguese, ..
19:44:58 <Markk> Ja is also a word in finnish
19:45:07 <Markk> But it doesn't mean yes, instead it's "and".
19:46:19 <Rubidium> Ammler: don't know, but the dictionary says "segregation"
19:46:35 <Ammler> wikipedia says South Africa only
19:46:38 <Markk> Ammler: USA had laws for that.
19:46:57 <Rubidium> but the dictionary also says "cultural segregation", which would imply it isn't only the racial segregation in SA
19:46:58 <Markk> Same thing, different name.
19:47:11 <Ammler> the german word would be Rassentrennung
19:47:27 <Ammler> so Apartheid is Rassentrennung in SA
19:48:09 <Rubidium> Ammler: wikipedia says it's used as a synonym for Rassentrennung in general
19:48:36 <Ammler> not the German wiki :-)
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19:49:41 <Rubidium> Ammler: the first paragraph
19:49:54 <Rubidium> above the table of contents
19:49:55 <Ammler> well, I should fix that :-P
19:52:02 <Ammler> there is no Dutch Apartheid?
19:52:13 <Ammler> or is that Nederlands?
19:52:44 <Markk> Dutch is the language in Netherlands, yes.
19:52:55 <Markk> Apartheid is Afrikaans i tink?
19:54:15 <planetmaker> not much difference, is there? ;-)
19:54:42 <planetmaker> The Dutch persons I talked about it so far told me that Africaans basically is a children's language of Dutch ;-)
19:54:53 <Ammler> there is no difference between Dutch and Nederlands?
19:55:02 <Markk> Ammler: Dutch is a language.
19:55:08 <Markk> Netherlands is a country.
19:55:20 <Ammler> then the wikipedia is confusing
19:55:37 <Ammler> there is no Germany wiki :-)
19:55:51 <Markk> If a dutch guy is talking to a Afrikaans guy they can understand eachother, but they must talk slowly.
19:56:01 <Markk> Think it's like Swedish and Norwegian.
19:57:03 <Markk> Ammler: Nederlandstalige is apperantly dutch, but in dutch.
19:58:54 <Belugas> same as for french and quebecor :)
20:00:17 <Ammler> Markk: the confusing thing is that German uses the language and Dutch the country on wikipedia
20:01:01 <planetmaker> The Dutch live in the Netherlands. Not in D(e)ut(s)chland
20:01:15 <Ammler> German says "German", Dutch says "Nederlands"
20:01:16 <planetmaker> The similarity is striking though
20:01:17 <Markk> I'm very aware of that.
20:01:42 <Ammler> Check the language navigation on wikipedia
20:02:14 <Ammler> maybe they thing, people would confuse it with German :-)
20:02:52 <planetmaker> Now. I think this discussion was more confusing ;-)
20:04:09 <Markk> More confusing is the languages them self.
20:04:17 <Markk> "Zeer goed" and "Sehr gut".
20:04:24 <Markk> Same meaning, different languages like.
20:05:10 <Markk> Pronunciation is nearly the same (only the g that is different), but the spelling is totally different.
20:07:20 <Hirundo> Things get confusing when you try to translate proverbs literally ;)
20:08:40 <planetmaker> [21:05] <Markk> Pronunciation is nearly the same (only the g that is different), but the spelling is totally different. <-- that's not a big issue IMHO
20:09:03 <Markk> It depends on what you're doing.
20:09:29 <Markk> I have both german and dutch speaking people at work.
20:10:31 <Markk> I want to know how you say "Ja genau" in dutch though.
20:11:50 <Markk> One thing that I love about the germans is that you can hear them being angry at a customer.
20:12:08 <Markk> They shout out "NEIN, NEIN, SHEIßE!"
20:15:10 <Hirundo> Easy way to get rid of "annoying" customers, methinks
20:15:36 <Rubidium> don't forget the occasional pair of words that have their meaning swapped :)
20:17:52 <Markk> But I never get surprised by a german anymore.
20:20:06 <Markk> Anyone who has a Sony Vaio btw?
20:21:55 <planetmaker> high price. But not bad either
20:24:04 <Markk> First time I tried to pronounce "die" in german it was more like "die" in english. :)
20:24:17 <Markk> "Die Welle" didn't really sound right.
20:25:20 <__ln__> blame the great vowel shift.
20:31:36 <Xaroth> Ammler]: there is no difference between Dutch and Nederlands? << Dutch in Dutch is Nederlands
20:32:09 <Xaroth> Nederlandstalige is "Dutch speaking".
20:34:07 <Markk> Now I'm going out for a fag like.
20:34:39 <avdg> dutch is sometimes hard, sometimes words are written with e or s, sometimes without and sometimes it gives an other meaning :p
20:35:08 <avdg> but don't panic, its not much harder then english :p
20:35:17 <Xaroth> same spelling, completely different meaning
20:35:57 <Xaroth> dutch is an annoying language :P
20:36:33 <Ammler> Xaroth: now, that makes sense :-)
20:37:09 <Ammler> the language navigation is with the origin language
20:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> or: mal einmal ein Mal
20:42:42 <avdg> through, I can't find the best episode
20:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> first "mal" is imperative of "malen" (draw/paint)
20:44:16 <Eddi|zuHause> second "mal" is short for "einmal" [meaning like "once" or "times", depending on context]
20:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and Mal is a marking or monument of some sort
20:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> like "Muttermal" is a birthmark
20:46:13 <Eddi|zuHause> or "Denkmal" is some building/monument of historic value
20:48:07 <Eddi|zuHause> ["Mutter" of course is "mother", and "Denk" comes from "denken"=="think" [here in the sense of "remember"]
20:48:41 <planetmaker> Wenn hinter Fliegen Fliegen fliegen, fliegen Fliegen Fliegen hinterher.
20:49:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Wenn hinter Robben Robben robben, robben Robben Robben hinterher.
20:54:13 <andythenorth> what's a good minimum distance between industries in same chain? 16 tiles?
20:56:17 <planetmaker> hm... wenn Dielen Dielen dealen, ... :-P
20:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that works :p
20:57:40 <planetmaker> except when we assume that "Vollpfosten" and "Diele" are the same thing ;-)
21:06:52 <Belugas> Led Zeppelin - No Quarter. Live... What a nice moment :)
21:07:48 <Eddi|zuHause> watching recordings of live concerts is kinda missing the point :p
21:08:20 <Markk> My favorite song of all times is a liverecording.
21:08:26 <Markk> Some songs should be played live.
21:11:05 <Prof_Frink> The penultimate track on Pulse is one of them.
21:16:14 <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause : watching a photo album and remembering the events is also missing the point?
21:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: well, depends on if you were present at the photo shooting ;)
21:17:17 <Belugas> same with concerts hehehe
21:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause> watching other people's photos is kind of boring...
21:17:48 <planetmaker> if the usual theme of "watch this. And how nice it was there..." is applied
21:18:02 <planetmaker> which unfortunately most do when showing photos
21:18:06 <Belugas> depends, Eddi|zuHause. if it's art, it's not boring.
21:18:13 <Belugas> true taht, planetmaker :)
21:18:29 <planetmaker> a vanity show of "my nice holidays" or "my photo shooting skills" Or a combination of both ;-)
21:18:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: but in the rarest cases art is actually involved...
21:22:02 <Belugas> true that, Eddi|zuHause
21:25:01 * peter1138 still works on perlin
21:25:20 * andythenorth works on spacing industries
21:25:22 * planetmaker hopes that there's not too much peril, though
21:28:42 * andythenorth seeks volunteers
21:29:35 <andythenorth> it's not a hard task, just one I'm bored of repeating
21:29:44 <andythenorth> testing industry generation on new map
21:31:17 <andythenorth> I'll do it then :(
21:31:21 <Hirundo> write a python script to write the nfo for you ;)
21:31:57 * peter1138 is also trying to decipher what tgp does, and what the actual intention is...
21:32:16 <andythenorth> peter1138: 'better landscapes' yes/no?
21:32:31 <andythenorth> Hirundo: can I write a python script to use my eyes for me?
21:32:55 <andythenorth> or mod the game to report minimum distance between industry types when generating map
21:33:12 <Hirundo> how turing complete is python/your computer?
21:33:20 * andythenorth wonders if Eddi|zuHause is right, and min distance needs to scale by map
21:33:27 <planetmaker> [22:31] <Hirundo> write a python script to write the nfo for you ;) <-- I usually call that NML ;-P
21:33:45 <andythenorth> a small map is now quite lacking in arable farms due to distance checks
21:34:00 <andythenorth> however mountainous, 80% water might be quite pathological :P
21:34:05 * Hirundo guesses Eddi is right
21:35:25 * andythenorth wonders if var 67 uses manhattan distances
21:35:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21367 /trunk/src/clear_map.h: -Fix (r18719)[FS#4283]: Fields were not cleared under snow though they were intended to be.
21:36:32 * andythenorth assumes so, it's not documented in ttdp wiki though
21:37:54 <frosch123> "The return value has the format rrccdddd, where rr is reserved for future use, cc is the number of instances of the industry type and dddd is the Manhattan distance of the closest instance, of FFFFh if not appliable."
21:38:46 <planetmaker> life feed from the relevant newgrf wiki sections is quite convenient here today :-)
21:40:10 <andythenorth> what, my eyes don't work :o
21:53:33 <andythenorth> some industries have a lot of industry types that can supply them
21:53:45 <andythenorth> that means a lot of minimum spacing checks :P
21:53:59 <andythenorth> perhaps I don't bother for all of them
21:54:40 <planetmaker> well. As said earlier: Don't. It's realistic ;-)
21:54:44 <andythenorth> the issue I'm trying to prevent is supply / accept at two industries that are so close that any sane station placement covers both of them
21:54:57 <planetmaker> that's not an argument
21:55:02 <andythenorth> vehicles lose money on such short route
21:55:07 <planetmaker> you can always place stations such that they do NOT cover both
21:55:19 <planetmaker> and vehicles loosing money: Get a better manager
21:55:27 <planetmaker> The newgrf must not play the game for a poor player
21:55:28 <andythenorth> and the accepting station eventually builds up a supply of the cargo
21:55:42 <planetmaker> that really is not your issue
21:56:04 <andythenorth> due to vehicles visiting it on way to depot etc
21:56:10 <planetmaker> and you have no means to prevent that unless you impose annoying placement rules
21:57:32 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo
21:58:14 <andythenorth> I don't agree in this case
22:00:36 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
22:01:17 <andythenorth> my trams lose money :(
22:01:42 <andythenorth> and it's silly :D
22:02:11 <andythenorth> and I can fix it ;)
22:04:24 <planetmaker> well. That's a silly map ;-)
22:04:34 <planetmaker> If you 'fix' that, map generation will fail
22:04:49 <planetmaker> or not fail, but not be able to provide those industries in the first place
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22:06:27 <andythenorth> yes, I'm concerned about map gen issue
22:06:57 <andythenorth> but I think it's resolvable
22:08:16 <andythenorth> I think maybe scaling the distance on smaller maps
22:11:26 <andythenorth> I'm concerned about increasing map gen time as wel
22:11:38 <andythenorth> a lot of var 67 checks...
22:13:01 <andythenorth> planetmaker: is it better if I do only primary->processor checks
22:13:16 <andythenorth> checking between the secondary industries that exchange cargo seems overkill
22:13:23 <andythenorth> and likely to cause placement issues
22:14:06 <andythenorth> ok, maybe I limit it to primary->processor
22:15:06 <andythenorth> or I introduce a 'conveyor belt' vehicle in HEQS. Running cost ~0 :D
22:15:33 <andythenorth> I could do it as an articulated vehicle of many trailers - that fills all the space between two stations
22:15:46 <andythenorth> that would work for pipelines too
22:16:06 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: I did that back in the days of TTDPatch.
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