IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-11-30
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00:00:19 * Zuu points at FS#4280 (a really trival patch) and hopes it will help to bring the next party closer :-)
00:04:40 <Zuu> I need to get some sleep. Good night.
00:04:41 <Rubidium> CogsOfGoo: does it show on an in-game screenshot?
00:13:31 <Rubidium> just get that extra blanket
00:16:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21355 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Feature-ish [FS#4280]: Happy Zuu and a hotkey for the AI debug window for all (Zuu)
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00:57:26 <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: what you type is logical, obviously I'm not the one to ask whether or not it's 'correct' :)
00:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> of course it's logical, that wasn't really the question :p
00:58:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the devil is in the details
00:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause> like operator priority of -> vs typecast
00:58:55 <Xaroth> I personally do (type)(class->property)
00:59:40 <Xaroth> or was that ((type)class->property)
00:59:50 <Xaroth> damn you eddi, you almost made me look up my own code at 2am :P
00:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that last one is clearly useless
01:00:24 <Xaroth> if ((bool)town_id->larger_town)
01:00:47 <Xaroth> meh, cba to look it up
01:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's different. that () is syntactically necessary for the if
01:01:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it has nothing to do with the expression
01:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the question was, whether the default priority is (type)(a->b) or ((type)a)->b
01:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not fluent enough in c-like dialects to decide that
01:03:13 <Xaroth> the last one looks odd tho :P
01:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no doubt about the correctness of that, though.
01:05:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "return" ends the code path, the "else" can never be reached
01:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the openttd code is full of these
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01:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> if (precondition failed) return false;
01:07:21 <Eddi|zuHause> continue here without else
01:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause> saves you an excessively long indentation block
01:14:03 <glx> and headaches when reading the code ;)
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11:58:46 <andythenorth> " most of them would be way more popular"
11:58:59 <andythenorth> yeah, if we had double the amount of time in our day
11:59:14 <andythenorth> "if people were smarter most of them would be way more popular"
12:00:31 <andythenorth> so many people with their one pet theory titled "what one thing is wrong with the world"
12:01:04 * andythenorth is playing ball catch with a baby who can neither catch nor throw back
12:02:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21356 /trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Fix (r21351): sometimes versions wouldn't be correctly set for Windows builds
12:02:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth, but it is MUCH more entertaining than playing that thing in the forum with users who supposedly *should* be able to catch the ball
12:03:08 <V453000> they might even catch it but throw back damaged :p
12:03:22 <planetmaker> they'll throw back a shuriken
12:04:12 <Rubidium> or they'll throw up their meal ;)
12:04:23 <planetmaker> I'm still pondering how to respond to the "more realistic properties" request in OpenGFX+Trains or whether to continue ignoring it ;-)
12:05:23 <V453000> "more realistic properties" ?
12:05:23 <Terkhen> tell them that it is as realistic as the base set of trains it is expanding
12:05:29 <Rubidium> isn't the "goal" to create a set of trains like the original, but able to carry more cargos and look better for MUs?
12:05:47 <planetmaker> and I think I clearly stated that :-)
12:05:51 <Rubidium> like original != realistic
12:06:01 <Rubidium> thus, realistic properties aren't a goal
12:07:36 <V453000> wanting such set to be realistic is imo pretty retarded ... the goals it has are fullfilled excellently :)
12:08:19 <V453000> btw I am really wondering what the realistic properties mean :D
12:09:28 <Terkhen> I was wondering the same thing
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12:11:31 <Terkhen> If I find the specs for the Locomotives in the Arctic and Tropical climates would you guys include "Realistic Locomotive Specs" for a parameter? <--- probably this
12:12:40 <planetmaker> yes, that's what I mainly had in mind.
12:12:46 <Rubidium> e.g. the "running cost" of the Manley-Morel is the combined salary of Christine Manley and Joe Morel
12:14:21 <V453000> not asking about capacities :D
12:14:25 <planetmaker> http://pastebin.com/gWmq6DGD <-- that's the maximum amount of parameters I can think of which might need some discussion at all. Or any other worth of discussion for default settings?
12:16:02 * Rubidium would dislike discussions about max_companies/clients/spectators. They'll always end up being: "maximum"
12:17:27 <planetmaker> ok. But I guess we can set the max_companies without discussion to 15 :-)
12:17:40 <Rubidium> or actually max_clients is the most important to not set to $MAX
12:17:57 <planetmaker> And clients like 32 or so
12:18:01 <planetmaker> then it's two per company
12:18:06 <planetmaker> Nothing which ever happens
12:18:22 <V453000> what is the max we ever had on PS? 24?
12:18:38 <planetmaker> <Webster> #openttdcoop Records: Clients: 24
12:19:22 * andythenorth considers hacking for mountains in tropic
12:19:37 <planetmaker> rather farm them :-P
12:19:45 <planetmaker> what's your problem with tropical mountains?
12:19:49 <andythenorth> there aren't any
12:20:04 <andythenorth> flat landscapes are boring
12:20:05 <planetmaker> I must do something wrong then ;-)
12:20:21 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I can't generate a mountainous tropic map
12:21:29 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I made one some time ago
12:21:48 <Terkhen> I just inverted the desert/tropic generation, it wasn't very difficult
12:22:00 <Terkhen> it was just a hack to generate a single map, though
12:22:14 <andythenorth> that's what I'm going to do
12:22:25 <andythenorth> wonder if there's a better solution?
12:23:38 <Terkhen> a custom parameter to define how are desert/tropic tiles decided?
12:24:13 <planetmaker> I'd rather de-couple the height generation from the climate completely.
12:24:28 <planetmaker> and just have different defaults for different climates
12:24:29 <andythenorth> I am trying to create tropical islands
12:24:35 <andythenorth> which are quite validly very mountainous
12:25:13 <Terkhen> IMO map generation needs a better solution than just adding new settings
12:25:23 <andythenorth> there are already too many in my view
12:25:26 <Terkhen> using scripts for it would be awesome
12:25:29 <andythenorth> variety generation was one step too far
12:25:37 <andythenorth> I no longer understand how to get a nice map
12:26:06 <planetmaker> <Terkhen> IMO map generation needs a better solution than just adding new settings <-- the whole settings need re-doing...
12:26:18 <planetmaker> I somehow never found enough time to continue with it...
12:26:45 <andythenorth> it's because you're making trains :P
12:26:49 <planetmaker> But world generation could probably be somewhat separate. But then settings, newgrfs, options and difficulty should go there, too
12:26:56 <andythenorth> we have plenty of trains already :D
12:27:33 <planetmaker> but... but... but... !
12:27:45 <planetmaker> (damn, where's the excuse ;-)
12:28:01 <Terkhen> that we have plenty of overcomplicated trains :)
12:28:52 <planetmaker> most try to be "realistic" ;-)
12:28:57 <planetmaker> or all except one?
12:29:24 <planetmaker> Maybe I should port the climate selection to the RVs :-)
12:29:36 <Terkhen> the long list of trains of most sets is what kept me from playing with trains along with FIRS
12:29:56 <Terkhen> hmm... the RVs are identical between climates, except the buses
12:30:16 <Terkhen> well, not identical because there is a different one for each cargo, but they all share the same stats
12:30:48 <planetmaker> well. Like wagons. I don't treat them per-climate either. Except some graphics
12:31:06 <Terkhen> yes, they are more akin to wagons than to train engines
12:32:14 <V453000> andythenorth: SmatZ made me a patch which made tropic generated just like normal arctic is ... therefore you get a lot of mountains, although you need to handle it with care because it is quite easy to eliminate desert completely
12:33:31 <Terkhen> for getting different heightmaps for each climates, you can hack the HeightMapSineTransform function in tgp.cpp (it has a climate switch)
12:34:06 <Ammler> maybe we should again make a game with all climates in one map :-)
12:34:54 <Ammler> wwottdgd/1 was such one
12:35:54 <andythenorth> Terkhen: if you don't like too many choices, how come you use HEQS? :o
12:36:21 <Terkhen> because in most cases small trucks are not even a valid choice :)
12:36:45 <Terkhen> besides, I like big trucks :P
12:42:16 <Ammler> Terkhen: if some newgrfs have too many or too complicated trains, then that is the issue of the GUI ;-)
12:42:57 <Terkhen> for too many trains that might be the case
12:43:14 <Terkhen> but the sets that annoy me the most are those that require special wagons for trains to work at all
12:43:23 <Terkhen> too complicated for me
12:46:15 <V453000> I think the equivalent for "caboose" as "shitbox" is quite appropriate :D
12:46:19 <Terkhen> no, I can't remember which set had them
12:46:58 <V453000> other sets have them, but you do not need to use them to run the trains
12:47:09 <Terkhen> yes, IIRC I tried NARS and 2cc, then old wagons new cargos and then I just played with road vehicles
12:47:53 <Ammler> 2cc shouldn't have that, afaik
12:48:17 <Terkhen> lately I have been playing with trains, but now I don't even remember how to do simple junctions
12:48:35 <Terkhen> I don't remember which was my problem with 2cc, but it was not the requirement of additional wagons
12:49:06 <andythenorth> I flipped LT_TROPIC and LT_ARCTIC in landscape.cpp around L928
12:49:14 <andythenorth> I thought that would give me more mountainous maps
12:49:18 <andythenorth> it does a bit, but not much
12:49:46 <andythenorth> maybe I need 'landscape rough', but then my tropical islands have sucky coastlines
12:49:50 <Ammler> andythenorth: then you have temperate
12:49:59 <andythenorth> maybe I should just draw a height map :(
12:50:03 <Ammler> you should check teh patch I pasted
12:50:22 * Terkhen ponders about map generation scripts
12:50:30 <Terkhen> they could have custom settings, as AIs do
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12:54:11 <Terkhen> hmm... let's play for a bit
12:56:52 <andythenorth> map generation scripts - on bananas?
12:57:30 <Terkhen> I suppose that game should include some default scripts, but yes
12:58:18 <Terkhen> it could be the solution for river generation too
12:58:52 <andythenorth> V453000: that's definitely more mountainous
12:59:26 <V453000> some people might complain about the lack of desert though
12:59:31 <andythenorth> wonder why my hack isn't producing that
12:59:47 * andythenorth goes exploring landscape.cpp
12:59:49 <V453000> with a nice combination of the variety distribution, you get both high mountains and desert, which is nice
13:00:25 <Terkhen> andythenorth: beware, here be dragons!
13:00:45 * andythenorth wonders what GenerateTerrain is doing
13:01:29 <andythenorth> and also what landscape 'steps' are
13:04:20 <planetmaker> hm, yes. Map generation scripts would be good :-)
13:04:45 <planetmaker> I wonder whether per feature or as global script :-)
13:05:09 <andythenorth> would they generate maps directly, or an intermediate height map?
13:05:15 <andythenorth> i.e. is it a bitmap thing?
13:05:21 <planetmaker> feature as in land+sea, rivers, town placement, industry placement, tree placement, road placement, ...
13:05:36 <Terkhen> IMO direct maps, as height maps fail to display things such as rivers
13:06:13 <Terkhen> hmm... maybe three types; land+sea+rivers+trees, town placement, industry placement
13:06:18 <Rubidium> planetmaker: search the forum for Yexo's attempt; I seem to remember that it was too hellishly slow to generate a simple staircase map using a script
13:07:07 <Yexo> that was setting the height of all tiles using squirrel
13:07:17 <Yexo> an approach using geogen would probably be fast enough
13:07:49 <Yexo> which is: provide an api which can change the heightmap in many ways, so don't let squirrel code set the height of individual tiles
13:09:02 <Yexo> is there a problem with openttd.org or is that on my end?
13:10:16 <Yexo> I can't, and I can't reach any of the web pages either
13:10:24 <Yexo> not www., not hg., not devs.
13:11:12 <planetmaker> ^ :-) very good site
13:11:25 <SpComb> a trivialization of the issue
13:11:48 <SpComb> various routing issues etc. can cause wide variations in reachability
13:13:34 * andythenorth fools with numbers in landscape.cpp
13:13:38 <andythenorth> no idea what they do
13:13:59 <Terkhen> smash them until you know :)
13:14:36 <andythenorth> GenerateTerrain accepts two parameters
13:14:42 <andythenorth> I can't figure out what they are
13:14:48 <andythenorth> I thought they were tile heights
13:14:54 <SpComb> magicnumber1, magicnumber2
13:14:55 <planetmaker> they certainly have names and types ;-)
13:15:48 <andythenorth> so tile type and ...?
13:17:54 <planetmaker> a 'flag' which controls some behaviour
13:18:17 <retro> Yexo: second link 404 :(
13:18:42 <Yexo> as I said before I can't check reach anything on openttd.org right now, so I can't check
13:19:17 <Terkhen> it's in the first one
13:19:46 <andythenorth> I thought filling these two tables with 0s might do something interesting, but they didn't :P static const byte _genterrain_tbl_1[5] = { 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 };
13:20:46 <SpComb> that should be tbl_1[POSITIVE_INTGER_FIVE]
13:20:51 <Yexo> andythenorth: GenerateTerrain is only used by the original map generator, not by tgp
13:20:53 <SpComb> magic numbers are bad mkay
13:21:17 * andythenorth goes exploring further
13:21:28 <Yexo> see GenerateTerrainPerlin for terragenesis
13:22:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21357 /trunk/src/network/core/ (packet.cpp packet.h tcp.cpp udp.cpp): -Codechange: make it possible to resize the packet's buffer
13:25:20 <Terkhen> it is mostly what I had in mind, but as an external app
13:28:55 <andythenorth> rivers might put an end to the 'bigger boats' question :P
13:29:33 * andythenorth has an extremely mountainous tropic map :D
13:30:17 <Terkhen> can you share the diff?
13:30:53 <andythenorth> it's a trivial change in tgp.cpp
13:31:05 <andythenorth> search for LT_TROPIC and flip with LT_ARCTIC
13:31:07 <fjb> Then you need some nice rivers for the valleys.
13:31:17 <andythenorth> I need to fool with desert tiles, there aren't any :P
13:32:26 <Terkhen> hmm... me and my stupid memory, I remember trying to code rivers some time ago, encountering a big problem and forgetting about this, but I don't remember which was the problem
13:32:42 <planetmaker> The terraforming automatically for slopes?
13:33:23 <planetmaker> A year ago or so I had some patches to that end, too ;-)
13:35:05 <planetmaker> and sometimes an assert as cream on top ;-)
13:35:26 * andythenorth produced an exciting explosion of the game
13:36:53 <andythenorth> do river generation algorithms start at source, or shoreline?
13:37:05 <Terkhen> hmmm... I have no idea of what was wrong with mine
13:37:24 <Terkhen> andythenorth: my implementation started on source, you could create rivers in the SE
13:37:32 <Terkhen> nope, they were single tile rivers
13:37:46 <andythenorth> are there no advantages to starting at shoreline?
13:38:41 <Terkhen> but if I deleted it I probably had a reason... stupid memory
13:39:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21358 /trunk/src/ (25 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make some network function names conform to coding style
13:39:01 <planetmaker> Starting at the shoreline has the advantage that you make sure that they'll have a valid sink
13:39:32 <Terkhen> yeah, that makes sense
13:39:59 <andythenorth> seems easier somehow
13:40:04 <planetmaker> backdraw: you cannot have them end in a lake or at the map border...
13:40:13 <andythenorth> can have them end in a lake
13:40:18 <andythenorth> but not a lake above sea level
13:40:19 <planetmaker> but that'd be acceptable.
13:40:34 <planetmaker> yes. Other things are 'seas' in this context :-)
13:40:44 <planetmaker> lake = above sea level. Sea = sea level.
13:40:48 <planetmaker> For easier terminology
13:40:57 <andythenorth> handle generating lakes separately :P
13:41:11 <andythenorth> I think relying on rivers to fill them in is unlikely
13:41:40 <planetmaker> I think the first point would be to actually place them.
13:41:47 <Terkhen> that's what I was thinking, generate lakes first, then select appropiate starting points for rivers from both the sea and the lakes
13:41:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21359 /extra/masterserver_updater/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): [MSU] -Codechange: "merge" r21358
13:42:01 <planetmaker> A 2nd step would be to actually make them 'lively'. That's something entirely else.
13:42:02 <Terkhen> but I have no idea on how to choose good places for the lakes
13:42:31 <planetmaker> and possibly some shore distance
13:42:41 <andythenorth> it seems conceptually quite easy to generate a reverse path for rivers, just pick from random(8), and see if the tile height >= this tile
13:42:55 <andythenorth> random(8) for direction that is
13:43:09 <Terkhen> lively rivers could easily be used to wreak havoc
13:43:23 <andythenorth> could cycle an array of 0-7, and if all neighbouring tile heights are < this tile height, stop building river
13:43:32 * andythenorth is thinking aloud
13:43:43 <Terkhen> my implementation used a greedy approach; slopes (in the correct direction) always had a greater chance of being chosen than flat tiles
13:43:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the difficulty is the path finding for rivers so that it looks nice
13:43:54 <Terkhen> slopes in the incorrect direction could not be chosen
13:44:02 <andythenorth> does it matter if it looks nice?
13:44:21 <Terkhen> yeah, for starters I would settle for "it somewhat works"
13:44:25 <planetmaker> I chose direction somewhat randomly. With a preference to continue straight. And disallowing descend
13:44:31 <andythenorth> would need to not do stupid things like run along side slopes
13:44:45 <planetmaker> Or actually ascend. I think my latest attempt was to go down from the mountains
13:44:49 <Terkhen> oh, right, mine also favored continuing in the same direction
13:45:15 <planetmaker> and then I added some crude detection to not run into the same river (e.g. no loops)
13:45:21 <andythenorth> so store the previous direction, then random(that or some other number)
13:45:24 <planetmaker> if so, I aborted and started anew, I think
13:45:46 <andythenorth> rivers do close themselves off :D
13:46:14 <Terkhen> hmm... how to avoid loops?
13:46:53 <andythenorth> flood fill the loop - lake
13:47:21 <Terkhen> hmm... any solution for loops would require to store all used tiles somewhere
13:47:37 <Terkhen> then you could either avoid reusing them or detect the collision and fill the lake accordingly
13:48:11 <andythenorth> loops might not be the worst problem
13:48:20 <andythenorth> me is reminded of 'snake' game
13:48:37 <Terkhen> yeah, I managed to use the lively rivers patch to play snake :D
13:49:01 <Terkhen> what problem are you referring to?
13:52:22 * andythenorth just accidentally made a fjord generator
13:52:38 <planetmaker> that is nothing bad. Keep it!
13:52:48 <planetmaker> Those are my favourite maps after all :-)
13:53:31 <planetmaker> pic or it didn't happen? ;-)
13:56:35 <andythenorth> it's incomplete...but
14:00:03 <andythenorth> I swapped around some of the arctic and tropic sine wave generation code, which seems to produce nice rifts :)
14:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> in other words, you have no clue what you're doing :p
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14:03:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: quite right
14:03:49 <andythenorth> whatever I've done is also producing concentric rings of mountains
14:06:18 <norbert79> One ring to rule them all...
14:06:56 <andythenorth> should I have diffed the fjord thing? :o
14:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this type of rings happen when you emphasise one frequency too much
14:07:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's like throwing a stone in the water
14:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you know what's weird: whenever i see one of the non-greeen elevation maps, i feel like a colourblind person :p
14:09:31 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Which is good to be if you want to solve a Rubik's cube
14:09:49 <andythenorth> you mean not everyone uses purple minmap :O
14:11:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21360 /trunk/src/newgrf_object.cpp: -Fix [FS#4281]: crash when randomised action2 was used when resolving the image to draw in the buy menu
14:14:57 <Terkhen> you are the only two to my knowledge :)
14:15:19 * Terkhen is happy with dark green
14:15:25 * andythenorth ponders landscape generation
14:15:26 <Rubidium> mine is purple as well...
14:15:39 <Rubidium> ... out of laziness to restore it after testing that patch
14:16:07 <Rubidium> I actually don't like the purple, so that says something about how often I've used the smallmap recently
14:16:34 <andythenorth> do any of us actually play the game at all
14:17:07 * andythenorth copies and pastes random bits of tgp.cpp
14:17:39 <Rubidium> qutiamnehr oi;se jtgvae; jeaiobpeawogh nscp jqnhapj msarpgj asfpba
14:17:45 <Rubidium> ^ random bits from tgp.cpp :)
14:18:23 <andythenorth> Rubidium: that doesn't compile
14:18:30 <andythenorth> what's is supposed to do?
14:18:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21361 /trunk/src/network/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change: make sure the client is listening, or rather receiving, our frames
14:19:14 <Rubidium> andythenorth: neither do I; they're just random bits from tgp.cpp
14:19:33 <Rubidium> given enough monkeys you'll eventually get the thing you want though
14:19:54 <andythenorth> do amazon sell monkeys?
14:20:21 <V453000> you will need a lot of them I fear
14:20:47 <andythenorth> I am trying to create landscapes with:
14:20:56 <andythenorth> - quite a lot of very high mountains
14:20:59 <andythenorth> - some very flat areas
14:21:10 <Rubidium> hmm... actually, it already works to andythenorth's wishes (according to Tegmark)
14:21:15 <andythenorth> no high plateaus
14:22:15 * fjb plays the game but is not developing it or any extension to it. :)
14:24:37 * fjb throws a snowball at Belugas. :)
14:25:17 <Belugas> straighten up the mind...
14:25:49 <__ln__> "An Internet user used an intercontinental weapon against another!"
14:26:20 <andythenorth> photoshop might be a much better landscape generator :P
14:30:55 <fjb> Photshop ate andythenorth...
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14:32:54 <andythenorth> maybe if I did the actual maths :P
14:40:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you understand tgp.cpp?
14:40:34 <Eddi|zuHause> not in its entirety...
14:40:51 <andythenorth> I've done enough fooling with numbers to see what happens
14:41:01 <andythenorth> it's a monkey method :P
14:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i know it's a fairly common random generator called "perlin noise" adapted to 2-D maps
14:44:50 <andythenorth> the challenge for me seems to be:
14:45:37 <andythenorth> where there are high points, make the surrounding gradient steep
14:45:55 <andythenorth> where there are low points, compress large areas of surrounding tiles to similar height
14:46:10 <andythenorth> and high points should be small (mountain peaks)
14:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to apply a non-linear scale afterwards to achieve that
14:53:55 <andythenorth> what I want is something like a spline, which would form the topographical profile (if side projected)
14:54:17 <andythenorth> then project that across the map
14:54:25 <andythenorth> with random variation for each row
14:54:25 <Eddi|zuHause> like log(x) will emphasise changes on the low levels, and exp(x) will emphasise changes on high levels
14:55:16 <andythenorth> I don't know how to implement that, but it helps
14:55:27 <andythenorth> the goal isn't quite realism
14:55:32 <andythenorth> but something like
14:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> well, applying such a scale is really simple: for (each point on the map) { point.height = scale(point.height); }
14:57:45 <Eddi|zuHause> where you can replace "scale" with almost any mathematical function
14:58:51 <andythenorth> wish my maths was better :P
15:01:39 <Eddi|zuHause> one useful to know thing is that tgp is one of the really few parts of the game that can safely use floating point maths
15:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> because it doesn't have to be synchronised over the network
15:08:03 * andythenorth has just made bolivia
15:08:13 <andythenorth> low plateaus, steep mountains, high plateaus
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15:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you need more height levels for really interesting maps
15:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> there is an overflow routine in tgp that cuts off the really high mountains, creating plateaus
15:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> to prevent this cutting off, you should make sure your scale function returns values between 0 and 16
15:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause> where "16" is actually "16<<4", because tgp internals use some custom fixed point maths
15:14:55 <andythenorth> I have just managed to get more interesting mountains with a simple hack
15:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause> "simple hacks" tend to break easily :p
15:16:24 <andythenorth> crazy fjords are back :P
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15:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause> one other maths point: the scale function better be monotonous ;)
15:17:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: most of this mostly goes over my head
15:17:53 <andythenorth> I can do some kinds of maths, not others
15:18:01 <andythenorth> trigonometry, no problem
15:18:08 <andythenorth> imaginary numbers, matrices
15:18:20 <andythenorth> but not proper algorithmic stuff
15:19:18 <Eddi|zuHause> really it's the only trick to map generation. finding a such a function and adjusting parameters to get pleasant results
15:20:00 <andythenorth> well I have a better understanding of what I'm trying to do
15:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause> look at the patch that implemented the feature variations
15:20:13 <andythenorth> 1. compress low points to create coastal plains
15:20:24 <andythenorth> 2. dump some of the mid-heights downwards to create ravines
15:20:31 <andythenorth> 3. leave mountain tops small and sharp
15:21:31 <Eddi|zuHause> read up on convex and concave functions :)
15:21:49 <Terkhen> andythenorth: if you want such a level of detail you are probably better with using a heightmap generator and loading it into OpenTTD
15:22:05 <Terkhen> loading the heightmap, I mean
15:22:47 <andythenorth> pulling one tile height down must pull down the neighbours?
15:22:53 <andythenorth> to prevent discontinuities?
15:26:55 <andythenorth> my hack is somewhat working
15:30:47 <andythenorth> I don't know if it's any better than just using temperate routine
15:30:49 <Ammler> andythenorth: add .diff to mime type txt/plain
15:33:35 <Ammler> that looks much more complicated than the smatzypatch
15:34:02 <andythenorth> while also leaving some desert on the map
15:34:11 <andythenorth> I think patching landscape.cpp could adjust desert amount
15:34:31 <Ammler> and you like flatter arctic?
15:34:55 <Terkhen> andythenorth: the results are nice at first glance
15:35:17 <andythenorth> Ammler: side effect :P
15:35:24 <andythenorth> could be valid though
15:35:27 <Terkhen> I have to go now, I'll finish checking it later
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16:54:15 <George> Hi. How do OTTD defines a number of industries of the type on the map during map generation and during game play?
16:54:41 <George> Would it be possible for industry to specify the change for its type
16:55:29 <retro> What is --enable-dedicated configuration option for ?
16:55:40 <retro> Found in Ammler openttdcoop script.
16:55:58 <George> I mean, for example, if petrol station is an industry, it should appear regarding to ammount of towns and houses, and not industries
16:57:23 <George> So, having many low number of industries and large number of towns, it would take many industry slots, leaving not much to other industries types
16:57:44 <planetmaker> you can limit the number of industries per town...
16:58:21 <George> But if it would be possible to increase the number of industries on the map with industry type definition, better balance ci\ould be provided
16:58:47 <George> planetmaker: I do not need to limit the number of industries per town
16:58:53 <planetmaker> eh? How so? You mean to have two industry types be a petrol station? How does that help?
17:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> <retro> What is --enable-dedicated configuration option for ? <-- it allows building without graphics library present
17:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> graphics output like SDL or GDI
17:01:36 <George> But that does not affect number of indutries on the map
17:03:02 <George> I mean not the actual number of industries on the map, bat the limit that controls appearing of an industry (in game or while map generation)
17:04:23 <planetmaker> Well. Properties 17 and 18 set the relative probability for industries
17:04:47 <planetmaker> You could probably modify the relative probability of petrol stations via action06 and as a function of a few game properties.
17:04:55 <planetmaker> Not sure whether the number of towns is accessible...
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17:09:57 <andythenorth> how many height levels are there (trunk)
17:10:53 <frosch123> George: maybe you are better off with houses then
17:12:13 <Terkhen> from my early tests with the more height levels patch, anything beyond 32 was way too much IMO
17:13:10 <frosch123> Terkhen: not if you play on 2kx2k and limit the local differences
17:14:20 <Terkhen> although... IIRC my mars heightmap looked awesome with 64 height levels
17:15:12 <Terkhen> actually, that heightmap is the cause of my interest in the patch :)
17:19:11 <planetmaker> if it only were cleaner...
17:19:15 <b_jonas> 64 height levels? isn't that a bit high?
17:19:38 <planetmaker> last time I looked it looked like a big mess of patches thrown together without any cleaning applied after the first hack-together
17:19:51 <Terkhen> andythenorth: your patch looks nice with 66% water
17:19:57 <planetmaker> But I'd appreciate more height levels a lot
17:20:05 <Belugas> for some people , there is no notion of "not enugh" still want more
17:20:10 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that was the cause of my loss of interest in the patch
17:20:43 * andythenorth has experimented with further patches
17:20:52 <Terkhen> nothing made sense, and back then I did not know if it was all of OpenTTD code or not
17:21:03 <andythenorth> but has a screaming child who doesn't care about map gen :P
17:21:36 <planetmaker> see you, andythenorth
17:21:40 <Terkhen> luckily I kept up with the rest of the code :)
17:24:36 <Terkhen> back then I wanted to do a mars conversion; graphics, industries that made sense in such setting and so on
17:24:58 <Terkhen> but I never got too far besides a few ideas
17:25:13 <planetmaker> well. There's one which 'just' needs finishing
17:25:33 <planetmaker> And my only heightmap on bananas: guess what it is :-)
17:25:47 <planetmaker> nasa's DEM of whole Mars
17:26:24 <George> frosch123: They are houses, but there are free industry slots, so I was thinking if it was a better chiose
17:27:30 <Terkhen> planetmaker: I was trying to do one with mars global surveyor data, but the results always came up pixelated
17:27:59 <planetmaker> Well. I took one of their giant false-colour elevation images and adopted the palette
17:28:33 <Terkhen> heh, it's no wonder that it came up pixelated
17:28:42 <Terkhen> I found it, it seems that I was working with jpg
17:30:33 <Terkhen> it seems that it wasn't my fault, NASAView only allowed to export data as jpg and gif
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17:31:47 <planetmaker> hm, I could swear I found png.... not sure though
17:32:55 <Terkhen> I liked how it looked with more height levels + bigger maps, let's see if I can get a screenshot
17:33:15 <Terkhen> hmmm... mhl comes with a bash script to apply all patches
17:33:51 <andythenorth> Terkhen: ^ that one's a different set of rules
17:34:06 <andythenorth> due to something I just figure out, it will probably be limited to about 12 height levels
17:35:20 <planetmaker> yes. And some conditional, some not etc. pp. That makes it incredibly hard to keep track
17:35:26 <andythenorth> it dumps anything at height level 0.7 down to 0.1 during generation
17:35:37 <andythenorth> it has some interesting effects
17:35:49 <andythenorth> not realistic, but would make for interesting gameplay
17:36:27 <Terkhen> it does not seem that the mhl patches have any logical order
17:36:33 <andythenorth> also, it we did want lakes....it would be a good generator of voids for lakes
17:36:33 <andythenorth> but it limits max height of mountains (I only just worked out why)
17:37:14 <planetmaker> that's when I gave up after reading thoroughly 3 of them or so
17:38:27 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I wonder if it would be feasible to make those things configurable, and if it would be too confusing to bother with it
17:39:15 <Terkhen> IIRC back then when I was involved in mhl I insisted on the need of having a good documentation, but I did not know how to organize that mess either
17:39:45 <Terkhen> now it is so big that it might be impossible to reorder it without rewriting everything from scratch
17:39:47 <planetmaker> there's some within the bash script....
17:40:15 <Terkhen> it's IMO not a bad thing; I had to do that for the rv acceleration patch and the code was way better the second time
17:40:36 <Terkhen> but given their reaction to suggested small changes I doubt that they would do it
17:41:15 <planetmaker> But experience on my own, but also what I see done to other patches: Rewriting it at least once is necessary for things like these
17:41:21 <Terkhen> I remember something like "I'm not going to change this patch because it will cause rejects on all of the other code" about the terraforming patch they splitted first
17:41:32 <planetmaker> The first hack gets the path layed out. The 2nd try cleans up
17:42:17 <Terkhen> you can avoid part of the problem if you start with a patch queue at the beginning, but you will have to rewrite some parts and move others anyways
17:42:29 <planetmaker> what you quoted is a sure path to "won't be implemented this way" most often ;-)
17:42:57 <planetmaker> I usually re-write the whole patch queue then nevertheless
17:43:11 <planetmaker> By having the "old" patches open in another editor window for reference
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17:43:36 <planetmaker> as I usually get some idea of how things could be better grouped into patches, too
17:43:37 <Terkhen> heh, I have done that for three times already with the partial refit patch
17:44:02 <Terkhen> since I don't want to do it a fourth time, I'm taking a break from it
17:44:38 <planetmaker> I think - and it's hard to come to that conclusion, if not really involved - most people don't have the slightest idea how much of this re-writing is going on before something bigger gets implemented
17:45:29 <planetmaker> it was also interesting for me to see that the same thing continued "behind the scenes" :-)
17:45:56 <Terkhen> I agree; I had no idea of where I was getting myself when I started the rv acceleration patch
17:46:06 <planetmaker> "normal" patch writers have no idea how critical devs are with their own implementations ;-)
17:46:58 <planetmaker> and how many things get then also put off - for one reason or another. And may it be "ah, rewritten enough, I don't feel like doing it yet again"
17:47:46 <planetmaker> on the other hand: it's clear that the code base only remains managable because of this rigor.
17:48:38 <Terkhen> yeah, my friends from university wonder why I'm so annoyingly nitpicking with everything related to code now :P
17:49:26 <planetmaker> it's indeed a BIG difference to work on something with many contributors (and customers). Or on something for your own leasure (only)
17:50:18 <planetmaker> users would be the proper word :-)
17:51:17 <Terkhen> yes, it's a big change of mind
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18:04:24 <Xaroth> hm, how hard would it be to have a rcon/console command being able to toggle the visibility of various UI elements?
18:04:47 <Xaroth> like, being able to make screenshots on the server without a chat window and the build icons up top
18:05:50 <planetmaker> Xaroth, it rather should be an argument for the screenshot argument
18:06:02 <planetmaker> like screenshot no_windows blubber.png
18:06:11 <planetmaker> instead of screenshot no_con blubber.png
18:06:49 <planetmaker> so doing something along those lines might work
18:06:59 <Xaroth> that would suffice 100%
18:07:16 <planetmaker> There's a function called DrawEssentialWindows (something similar) which puts them into place
18:07:36 * planetmaker can still live with that blame HAHAHA!
18:11:09 * andythenorth has two unrelated ideas for map gen
18:11:27 <andythenorth> 1. can there be zones of the map, which apply different land gen routines
18:11:52 <andythenorth> 2. can we solve rivers + landscape in one, by having a terraforming+river placing routine
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18:12:43 <b_jonas> andythenorth: how would you make the height at the borders of the zones match?
18:13:43 <andythenorth> that's the one that generates epic canyons
18:13:58 <andythenorth> would be very cool to fill them with water, except there are no exits :P
18:14:41 <Terkhen> andythenorth: would it make sense to make values like sine_lower_limit and the different fheight checks configurable?
18:14:56 <andythenorth> almost certainly
18:14:56 <andythenorth> I was just hacking
18:14:58 <andythenorth> I don't know what they do really
18:15:08 <andythenorth> I don't understand what the sine function is doing
18:15:29 * Terkhen does not understand it either
18:15:48 <andythenorth> I was intending this as serious patch effort, just wanted to see if better tropic maps can be generated
18:15:49 <andythenorth> I think they can :)
18:15:58 <andythenorth> I can probably hack at arctic a bit too
18:16:49 <Terkhen> the problem is that such settings are probably too advanced, and IMO they shouldn't even be present at the world generation window
18:17:16 <andythenorth> but if there was a scripted system it might be interesting
18:17:38 <Terkhen> it seems that there was already an attempt in that direction, the scripts were too slow
18:17:55 <andythenorth> I wonder about approaching this very differently: let the world gen generate plateaus at different heights with some small noise, then walk rivers back from coast into them
18:18:36 <andythenorth> with the river generator pulling down tile heights as it goes
18:18:46 <andythenorth> could be slow on a big map :P
18:20:29 <andythenorth> the heightmap generation relies on grayscale?
18:21:47 <andythenorth> (i.e. when using bitmaps)
18:22:31 <Terkhen> hmm... openttd generates some kind of internal heightmap as an intermediate step of map generation?
18:22:59 <andythenorth> I was wondering if it could be taught to understand RGB, thereby making rivers etc possible from bitmaps
18:23:19 <planetmaker> hm... interesting. Yes. It could be taught
18:23:30 <planetmaker> after all it handles 32bpp blitter even
18:23:48 <andythenorth> use R channel for terrain, B for water
18:23:49 <planetmaker> and IIRC 24bpp screenshots from that
18:24:02 <planetmaker> use G for land ;-)
18:24:05 <planetmaker> It's more logical
18:24:18 <andythenorth> anyway, only one value would be needed for water
18:24:22 <planetmaker> point taken and accepted
18:24:52 <andythenorth> the 'make a river generator' approach seems more logical, but no-one succeeded yet :P
18:25:36 <Terkhen> andythenorth: did you try geogen?
18:26:02 <planetmaker> Terkhen, do you have a link for that. I earlier did a quick google search, but that seemed to turn out only crap
18:26:10 <Terkhen> hmm... a shame, it's only for windows
18:26:56 <Terkhen> the scripts are in squirrel, and it runs fairly fast
18:27:22 <Terkhen> yes, that output is helpful when trying the scripts
18:27:52 <planetmaker> hm, I have the feeling it was once called differently. I recall that page but not the name
18:28:20 <Terkhen> the revision log makes reference to a river branch
18:29:03 <Terkhen> oh, it has a makefile for g++
18:30:14 <andythenorth> seems there are quite a few options we could try
18:30:29 <andythenorth> what are the goals? :)
18:31:50 <planetmaker> nice and easy map generation
18:32:01 <andythenorth> and what kind of maps?
18:32:06 <andythenorth> I have some personal tastes....
18:32:20 <planetmaker> good for you. Patch writer has the first call :-P
18:33:49 <Terkhen> the makefile fails for me, but since almost everything fails under mingw/msys I wouldn't take it as a real error
18:33:54 <Terkhen> does it work for you?
18:34:06 <planetmaker> anyway... sports, so probably see you tomorrow or much later
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18:35:54 <planetmaker> btw, Terkhen: Makefile worked with LOTS of warnings though
18:36:07 <planetmaker> resulting binary seems ok (asking me for script)
18:36:18 <Terkhen> I get a lot of warnings, but it fails to compile squirrel
18:36:26 <Terkhen> probably an issue with mingw
18:36:40 <Terkhen> does it compile only the command line utility?
18:36:49 <Terkhen> or is the fancy 3D viewer available too?
18:36:57 <planetmaker> dunno, I guess. I had only command line.
18:37:03 <planetmaker> Now... I must run :-)
18:41:17 <Alberth> 'better' ? and they are so nicely flat
18:42:51 <Alberth> I was intending this as serious patch effort, just wanted to see if better tropic maps can be generated <-- that line I commented on :)
18:43:33 <andythenorth> better is subjective :P
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18:45:16 <Alberth> I also have had the idea of adding colour to the height map to add information :)
18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21362 /trunk/src/lang/ (slovenian.txt spanish.txt vietnamese.txt):
18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 28 changes by ntadej
18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
18:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
18:45:56 <Alberth> currently, you can throw in a colour picture too, don't exactly know how it computes the height then
18:46:20 <Terkhen> is there a "standard" format for heightmaps with that kind of extra information? maybe some applications already work with something like that
18:46:42 * andythenorth wonders if map gen can be taught presets
18:46:56 <andythenorth> so there's fewer options
18:47:01 <Alberth> I have also been thinking about adding 'spots' for eg cities/industries, etc
18:47:23 <Alberth> in the end you'd have an extra file with the additional data, perhaps
18:47:37 <andythenorth> e.g. a menu with 'mountains', 'islands', 'plains', 'mixed'
18:47:44 <andythenorth> how many landscape types are there really?
18:47:58 <Terkhen> it had some kind of format for water/towns
18:48:27 <Alberth> what does this menu do?, ie with a flat height map + islands?
18:49:36 <andythenorth> this just affects the generator
18:49:43 <andythenorth> I've been fooling around with it today :P
18:50:13 <andythenorth> means some of the other options get hidden
18:50:14 <Alberth> oh, you're an expert already :p
18:50:38 <andythenorth> an expert at bad hacks
18:52:23 <andythenorth> aim would be to hide 'smoothness', 'variety distribution' and 'terrain type'
18:52:53 <Terkhen> it's impossible to hide settings
18:53:04 <Alberth> yeah, I can imagine such a menu could be useful. Why not make a series of buttons, just like the difficulty window with some presets. When you click 'islands', it sets the other values
18:53:17 <Terkhen> the avalanche of complaints would force you to put them visible again :P
18:53:33 <Terkhen> but I like your preset idea
18:53:52 <andythenorth> it would be more than presets on the other menus
18:53:57 <andythenorth> it would need some more work in tgp.cpp :P
18:54:00 <Terkhen> it would make the map generation way simpler, and if anyone wants to change it he can chose "custom"
18:54:37 <andythenorth> I realised finding a nice map is putting me off playing the game
18:54:41 <Terkhen> and since the custom option would be meant to be more advanced, we could add a lot of complicated stuff there, such as settings for those values that andythenorth was tweaking
18:54:58 <Terkhen> andythenorth: that happens for me too
18:55:02 <andythenorth> the goal wouldn't be realism necessarily, but certain kinds of gameplay
18:55:18 <Alberth> sir B will be happy :)
18:55:33 <andythenorth> if I want to play a mountain map, I want big valleys to bridge, hard slopes that need switchbacks, and towns that go up and down slopes
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18:56:24 <Alberth> yeah, having a number of pre-defined parameter combinations would be useful
18:56:26 <andythenorth> if 'plains' is obvious and can already be mostly done :P
18:56:43 <andythenorth> I thought of experimenting to try and make a nice rolling landscape in waves
18:59:55 <andythenorth> I think these would be hard coded in tcp.cpp
19:00:07 <andythenorth> adding a layer for scripting / extending them might be too much
19:00:51 <andythenorth> would they be climate specific?
19:01:22 <andythenorth> rolling landscape :D
19:01:34 <Alberth> perhaps disable certain presets in certain climates?
19:02:02 <andythenorth> I think it might be more a case of looking at landscape.cpp
19:02:17 <andythenorth> climates might need tile type code to handle each preset
19:03:14 <andythenorth> if I'm the expert, we're all screwed
19:03:31 <Alberth> not with industries and making pixels :)
19:04:00 <Terkhen> I don't think the presets should be limited to some climates
19:04:11 <Terkhen> let the user try and worry about that
19:04:54 <andythenorth> Terkhen: this isn't a small thing I'm proposing :P
19:04:56 <andythenorth> well, not if it also handles the amount of water
19:05:02 <andythenorth> should it handle the amount of water?
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19:06:03 <andythenorth> on a small map (I play small maps) it's fine for the preset to handle it
19:06:26 <andythenorth> but on a big map, player might want, say, mountains or plains, with a big sea between them
19:06:42 <Terkhen> you can't do that with the current settings
19:06:54 <andythenorth> but I'm all in favour of reducing number of menu choices
19:07:11 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I can control sea level though....which has similar effect
19:07:15 <Terkhen> you will always get similar results (also in size) for the same settings but increased size
19:07:24 <Terkhen> for example, the island sizes will be similar
19:08:11 <andythenorth> but more of them...?
19:08:15 <Terkhen> I think that the variety distribution setting might help with that, but only up to a point
19:08:26 <Terkhen> yes, you will get more of them, but it's difficult to get a big ocean for example
19:08:35 <Terkhen> the islands are equally distributed everywhere
19:09:13 * Alberth ponders adding a global offset according to some pattern
19:10:27 <andythenorth> I'll start writing some kind of spec
19:10:29 <Alberth> z += -2 + abs(x - X/2) * 4 where x if the x tile coord, and X is the length of the map in x direction
19:10:44 <andythenorth> what landscape types are interesting to play?
19:15:19 *** Markk_ is now known as Markk
19:15:22 <andythenorth> toyland should be very square
19:15:45 <Alberth> islands: many small islands, some small islands, some big islands
19:18:00 <Alberth> all land (perhaps a problem with oilrigs?): flat, mountains, and 2 in-between perhaps
19:19:11 <andythenorth> should I even consider future case where rivers might be available?
19:19:35 <Alberth> current tropical is mostly flat, with a few heights
19:19:50 <andythenorth> mine isn't any more :)
19:19:56 <Alberth> how do rivers change the world?
19:20:19 <andythenorth> could be a landscape
19:21:18 <Alberth> sure, possibly even without rivers
19:22:31 <andythenorth> so n types of islands
19:22:46 <Katje_> is there an easy way to find out which train/s call at a station ?
19:22:47 <andythenorth> 'just mountains', 'mountains and plains', 'just plains'
19:22:55 <Terkhen> I'm not sure if it's possible to do all of this without some kind of script
19:23:06 <Alberth> just keep it simple with a few options
19:23:16 <andythenorth> Terkhen: 'many if statements' :P
19:23:28 <Terkhen> Katje_: stations have vehicle icons in the lower left corner, select the train icon to see a list of all trains that go to that station
19:23:33 <Alberth> Katje_: yes, open the station window, there is a train image at the bottom right
19:24:38 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I am not sure of best implementation
19:24:47 <Alberth> andythenorth: the idea is to have a few simple options, rather than an exhaustive list, isn't it?
19:24:55 <andythenorth> yes - not such a big project it never gets
19:25:52 <Terkhen> I like the idea of "presets"
19:25:54 <Alberth> you can always expand later with more options
19:26:27 <Alberth> just a drop-down perhaps?
19:26:41 <andythenorth> removing as many other options as possible
19:26:54 <andythenorth> removing / hiding /s
19:27:31 <Alberth> hmm, I'd leave them, and set them to the value needed for generating the selected landscape type
19:27:46 <Terkhen> presets could take care of map generator, terrain type, sea level, three algorithm?, variety distribution, map edges? and smoothness
19:27:50 <Alberth> much less "where is option Q gone to?"
19:28:16 <andythenorth> Alberth: unfortunately it's not just a case of combining existing options :P
19:28:16 <Terkhen> I would move them to a different window, the generation window would become less intimidating for newbies
19:29:14 <Alberth> or a 'simple/expert' toggle in the advanced settings
19:29:34 <andythenorth> depending on planetmaker
19:29:51 <andythenorth> and revised GUI :P
19:30:00 <Alberth> andythenorth: hmm, extend the existing options first?
19:30:34 <Terkhen> it might make sense to extend the existing options first, if you want to use them to define presets later
19:30:35 <andythenorth> maybe - to what purpose though? :o
19:30:53 <Terkhen> but in that case, I would define them as settings without GUI first, to not make the same work twice
19:31:02 <Alberth> so I can do everything the simple options allow
19:31:03 <andythenorth> if we can identify common variables it would make sense
19:31:19 <andythenorth> I'm thinking that the code might be custom for each preset
19:31:35 <andythenorth> but someone more mathematical might be able to reduce it to functions and vars
19:31:56 <Terkhen> andythenorth: things like "heights for desert and jungle in tropic" or adding custom sine transforms
19:33:14 <Terkhen> x% water is already present
19:33:51 <andythenorth> I probably need to understand the sine function
19:34:00 <andythenorth> and other things that cause map to be generated
19:34:32 <andythenorth> tgp.cpp is well documented :)
19:34:38 <andythenorth> someone gets cookies
19:35:41 <Alberth> tgp is a well-known algortihm afaik and eg also at wikipedia
19:36:46 <andythenorth> I assume there's no reason to increase scope to replacing tgp?
19:37:02 <andythenorth> from my tests I reckon not
19:37:53 <Terkhen> it should only be replaced by a complete solution to the problem IMO (for example, scripts)
19:39:42 <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you think scripts a better route than presets?
19:39:57 <Terkhen> the preset route sounds good enough to me
19:40:05 <Terkhen> for other things, use a heightmap generator
19:40:24 <Terkhen> geogen is quite nice, but too big for being included in a game
19:41:15 <andythenorth> one problem that looks interesting is these flat-topped mountains
19:41:22 <andythenorth> code comments indicate their cause
19:42:53 <Alberth> arctic likes them for forests
19:46:44 <andythenorth> can forests level their own mountain :D
19:53:03 * andythenorth reads about perlin noise
20:01:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21363 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Add: support for limiting the amount of (accepted) incoming data
20:06:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21364 /trunk/src/table/settings.h: -Change: increase the default amount of companies, clients and spectators. Furthermore tighten the command execution/queueing limits a bit
20:07:30 <andythenorth> who wrote tgp.cpp?
20:07:43 <andythenorth> (I can't find a way to see commit history for it)
20:09:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21365 /trunk/docs/multiplayer.txt: -Document: the reasoning for some of the network configuration defaults
20:10:51 <Belugas> WOW. I forgt his name
20:11:16 <Belugas> nicest guy i ever met
20:11:51 <Alberth> that nick always makes me think 'rich kid' :p
20:12:10 <andythenorth> he had some disagreement about airports?
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20:13:30 <Alberth> if at first you don't succeed, try again :)
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20:37:10 * andythenorth plays a tropic game
20:37:15 <andythenorth> with an exciting map :D
20:37:47 <V453000> volcanic fjords looking like moon with beer instead of water?
20:38:31 <andythenorth> but something like that
20:38:41 <Belugas> [15:12] <andythenorth> he had some disagreement about airports? <- among others :)
20:42:15 <b_jonas> one-way roads make it even easier to trap opponents' road vehicles
20:45:05 <b_jonas> these are armoured vans, not buses
20:46:23 * andythenorth needs to create some industrial trams for < 1902
20:46:35 <b_jonas> I've replaced the trucks with buses
20:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: copy horses from eGRVTS?
20:47:16 <andythenorth> I don't want to do it because tram tracks have catenary
20:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> electric trams started some 1890-ish
20:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> surely most industrial railways are actually steam/diesel powered
20:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> catenary would only get in the way most of the time
20:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and difficult to maintain
20:51:34 <b_jonas> no wait, two of them were buses
20:51:39 <b_jonas> now I confused everything completely
20:53:20 <andythenorth> but current tram tracks have catenary
20:53:36 * andythenorth visits newgrf specs
20:55:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: before elrail, people weren't stopped from introducing electric engines either...
20:55:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and since road vehicles can now emit diesel/steam smoke... ;)
20:56:10 <andythenorth> I was wondering if HEQS could turn off catenary before a certain date
20:56:17 <andythenorth> anyways, invisible menu can do it
20:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause> no, HEQS certainly can't do that.
21:00:00 <lugo> that's sad, i was just googling some old trams to propose to andythenorth :D
21:02:35 <SpComb> something still up with openttd.org?
21:03:12 <SpComb> make that paste.openttd.org
21:03:16 <SpComb> seems to be a different server
21:05:06 <lugo> but than again, i guess noone ever moved cargo with that 'locos' ;) ..
21:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: paste has been offline for months...
21:15:07 <Eddi|zuHause> lugo: what the game needs is _mainstream_ transportation models
21:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the thing i hate most about bridge sets. they all consist of some extremely fancy designer bridges. but they look really crap if there are more than one of those...
21:16:33 <lugo> Eddi|zuHause, i don't want to see it in game, but just saw it lol'ed and wanted to share ;)
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21:18:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: controversial :P
21:18:26 <andythenorth> what the game needs is esoteric transportation models :
21:19:31 * andythenorth has hacked tropic to require food for all towns, but the town gui isn't showing it
21:19:31 <andythenorth> or rather it is, but the window isn't resizing
21:19:32 <andythenorth> text is being drawn on the landscape :P
21:19:54 <andythenorth> are the window sizes cached in the save game?
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21:24:22 <Hirundo> andythenorth: window (or rather, widget) sizes are computed based on their contents
21:24:34 <Hirundo> you may want to look at your window's UpdateWidgetSize method
21:28:14 <andythenorth> Hirundo: thanks. fixed
21:34:12 <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out how to patch so rail stations can build orthogonal to coasts
21:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably shouldn't do that.
21:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01 once had a patch for stations on slopes, but you can't have a rail ending at the raised end of a foundation
21:36:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why?
21:36:17 <andythenorth> I've patched for it.
21:36:25 <andythenorth> do I just wait for the assert and read the logs?
21:36:33 <andythenorth> or does it confuse the pathfinder?
21:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> pathfinder/vehicle movement can't prevent vehicles jumping down the slope on the rail that continues on the ground
21:36:47 <andythenorth> that I'm going to have to try :o
21:38:47 <Wolf01> I had the same problem, I would only allow buffer stops/non track tile on slopes
21:39:34 <Wolf01> but with sloped station it looked really cool, the lack of graphics and some bugs stopped me
21:39:51 <andythenorth> I actually only want them on coasts anyway
21:39:57 <andythenorth> maybe I can patch for that
21:40:11 <andythenorth> meanwhile, I have a shay climbing vertical slopes
21:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the problem with non-track tiles is that if you remove the grf, it falls back to a track-tile
21:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so the same restrictions must apply
21:41:40 <Wolf01> *that* was one of the main problems
21:41:55 <andythenorth> coasts isn't safe either
21:42:07 <andythenorth> coast can be removed and track can be built at sea level
21:42:16 <andythenorth> using the canal method / hack
21:43:25 <Wolf01> a solution would be to have the buffers stops built with perpendicular direction track, so it is like a T, trains can't go on buffers since they are non-track tile
21:43:41 <Wolf01> so the direction doesn't matter
21:44:22 <Wolf01> but you can build a track facing in the other direction about the slope
21:46:03 <andythenorth> a class of station tile which isn't rail?
21:46:27 <andythenorth> i.e. set a bit so that if station tile is removed, rail isn't built
21:46:47 <andythenorth> in fact, something like that was done already
21:46:48 <Wolf01> you need to have a track as base for a station
21:47:10 <Wolf01> you might not see the track, but if it's a station it's a track
21:47:23 <andythenorth> but try removing a non-track tile in a recent build
21:47:32 <andythenorth> no rail is left behind
21:47:43 <SpComb> some poor soul tried to send me email about my daylength patch
21:47:54 <SpComb> one of these days I'll update it again
21:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: in case of slopes, buffer stops would probably better as objects instead of stations
21:48:35 <andythenorth> possibly, but they'd need to act as stations wrt to cargo etc
21:48:40 <andythenorth> apart from the huge amount of work already present in station sets :P
21:49:17 <andythenorth> removing the grf does indeed revert a non-track tile to a track tile
21:49:30 <andythenorth> but removing a grf should be considered stupid anyway
21:49:48 <Wolf01> there is a problem too with non-track types (buffers) when removing grfs, some station sets use a "double headed buffer" to separate 2 tracks and make the graphic look continuous, when you remove the grfs you might crash trains that way
21:50:14 <Wolf01> at least if not already perpendicular
21:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i don't see the problem ;)
21:50:52 <Wolf01> but if it's ---][--- and you remove the grf you'll get -------
21:51:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: yes, it might crash the trains, but it doesn't lead to an otherwise invalid game configuration
21:51:54 <andythenorth> Wolf01: it does crash the trains
21:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you can get trains into the same situation by ignoring signals
21:52:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so the game state is valid, only unfortunate.
21:54:03 * andythenorth can't think of a way round this one :)
21:54:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "i just blew up the game"?
21:55:03 <Wolf01> then implement sloped stations and all the sloped tiles will follow the slope, when the grf is active you have a non-track type tile, you get a slope otherwise
21:56:31 <andythenorth> slope right down into the sea :P
21:57:07 <Wolf01> station or not, the train will stop when it reaches EOL
21:57:10 <andythenorth> only allow non-track station tiles on coast tiles, remove station tile if not coast?
21:57:50 <Wolf01> why? the train will stop at the very end of the station
21:58:49 <Wolf01> and with my implementation, the wagons follow the slope, then you only have a weird graphic, easily fixable with a grf
21:59:45 <andythenorth> there's a bit for 'non-track tile'? Could that be set for default station tiles if newgrf is removed?
22:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that would be a proper solution, yes.
22:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but map space is scarce
22:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and you have to provide graphics for a default non-track station
22:01:12 <Wolf01> just draw a red dot over the tile
22:02:29 <Wolf01> or change palette to ... crahsed for that tile if the bit is set
22:03:13 <Wolf01> or draw the station overlay without the track :D
22:03:14 <George> Should farm fields appear from under the snow when snow line goes up? In TTDP snow removes farm field
22:03:17 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: just break the graphics somehow
22:03:18 <Eddi|zuHause> hijacking the closed road image :p
22:03:21 <andythenorth> they're broken anyway
22:04:12 <Eddi|zuHause> George: i think there was a fairly recent change which allowed things like rocks to exist under the snow
22:04:14 <Wolf01> George, it would be cool
22:04:55 <George> Eddi|zuHause: Is it controlled somehow?
22:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> George: i don't think newgrf can do anything about it
22:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
22:07:09 * andythenorth thinks of another solution to stations
22:07:36 <andythenorth> one is a tile that includes very small buffer stops if it's the end tile of a track
22:08:02 <andythenorth> the other is a buffer tile, but with the orientation of graphics to tile direction rotated 90'
22:08:40 <andythenorth> I prefer the 'correct' solution with the non-track bit though
22:18:04 <andythenorth> Wolf01: sloped stations are cool
22:18:22 <andythenorth> it would be a lot of work for all the train station sets though
22:18:29 <andythenorth> maybe revisit it for roads?
22:19:45 <andythenorth> did it have any major problems?
22:20:40 <Wolf01> yes, I needed to change the function which builds the road stations (not drive through) to disallow building them facing the slope :P
22:21:19 <Wolf01> otherwise invalid combinations were alloved for roads too
22:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> buffer stops would be more interesting if you could have half-tile rails
22:22:32 <Wolf01> if you look at the left of the image you can see the road stations built with this patch, that's an interesting configuration
22:22:35 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why, and what blocks it?
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22:24:23 <Xaroth> trying to make a patch for ottd..
22:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth: clearly, that IS stupid.
22:25:02 <Xaroth> it is if you know my C++ skillz :P
22:25:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i can't think of any code that is prepared to stop trains going beyond the middle of a tile
22:25:36 <andythenorth> and what's useful about that idea? :)
22:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you could use the half tile before the buffer stop as platform
22:26:41 <andythenorth> squeezing extra length out of the station?
22:26:53 <andythenorth> I use buffer stops mostly, but I think they waste a lot of space
22:27:07 <Xaroth> not to mention I have no clue at all how to accomplish this
22:30:00 <andythenorth> bridges aren't going to be possible over stations yes / no?
22:31:19 <Wolf01> we miss the bridge height
22:31:24 <Wolf01> and the station height
22:31:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not currently, but maybe in the future
22:31:58 <andythenorth> probably longer than I'm prepared to wait while playing my current game?
22:32:08 <Eddi|zuHause> there is really nothing beyond visual glitches preventing it
22:33:01 <andythenorth> I guess for now I'll be demolishing my bridge :P
22:33:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't checked the map array recently, but i guess you can allow it in under 10 lines...
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22:37:10 <b_jonas> do the grfs have an info about which custom stations have what height? I mean, some of these high cranes and overpasses and grain storage tanks wouldn't fit under a bridge.
22:37:54 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: no, that's the problem.
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22:45:30 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't checked the map array recently, but i guess you can allow it in under 10 lines... <- just 1 if if IIRC
22:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: one of the I in IIRC is already an "if"
22:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really remember, but last time i tried in 1 line, i failed... must have been the wrong line ;)
22:47:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but that was a _very_ long time ago
22:52:50 <Wolf01> I usually comment the ifs which returns in case of impossible combinations, sandbox mode enabled XD
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