IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-11-14
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00:00:52 <Samu> what is the consensus you guys take when defining defaults?
00:01:20 <AveiMil> xiong, what makes it extremely rocks
00:01:29 <planetmaker> I usually declare that the default what most of my personalities can agree upon
00:01:34 <xiong> Samu, Dunno about anybody else but I follow the Principle of Least Surprise.
00:02:07 <xiong> AveiMil, Ah-um. Well, dunno if I should give a stump speech on it. Lemme see...
00:02:38 <Samu> would you like some defaults taken out of ttd? since I have the game installed...
00:03:25 <xiong> First, it has more cargoes. The cargoes are integrated better into what's called the industry chain but might better be thought of as a network. There are now no industries that only produce cargoes; all accept, although some produce nothing.
00:04:13 <xiong> Default primary industries accept nothing. FIRS primary industries accept cargoes like engineering supplies, which boost production.
00:04:31 <AveiMil> hmm, I'll check it out right now
00:05:42 <xiong> Second, to go along with the nifty industries, there are many new industrial station platforms. Some are animated. Many show backlogs of certain cargoes. I could wish that more work were done in this direction. The project is certainly unfinished. I wish I could help.
00:06:33 <Samu> man, sometimes I feel really useless
00:06:47 <AveiMil> First impression: clutter
00:07:07 <Samu> I can't think of a way to help openttd development
00:07:15 <xiong> Third, FIRS is heavily parameterized. When you activate it, you can configure it in several ways. For instance, you can have industries never close (which is IIRC default) or close if you like. )
00:07:42 <xiong> AveiMil, OpenTTD is baroque. This is not a clean game.
00:08:05 <Rubidium> write a comprehensive manual in a format that's easily translatable (e.g. docbook)
00:08:11 <AveiMil> one of my goals with my mod is to make things simple yet very challenging and fun
00:08:33 <xiong> Rubidium, you don't like wiki?
00:09:25 <AveiMil> Don't think I'll take FIRS into account, but the good news is nothing in my mod should break gameplay if using FIRS
00:09:55 <xiong> I don't think a workable documentation solution will be anything that's hard to edit. Then it will fall even further behind reality. What's wanted is more involvement in the wiki, policing up deprecated stuff and updating to match nightly.
00:11:01 <xiong> I've done some of that but I don't have real knowledge to pass into it.
00:11:51 <planetmaker> I guess quite well
00:11:54 <avdg> xiong: its edited, thats at least something
00:12:09 * Rubidium misses "die eltern" in that list
00:12:09 <planetmaker> from my collegues, those who are catholic, are from the blue areas
00:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it's kinda hidden
00:12:23 <Rubidium> (or I didn't understand it)
00:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: in the "pilot project"
00:12:32 <planetmaker> err... green areas
00:13:15 <planetmaker> Rubidium: the question is how do you call the person who brings the presents to the children on Christmas eve
00:14:10 <planetmaker> btw, Eddi|zuHause reading the text would tell you that it correlates ;-)
00:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but only vaguely
00:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it isn't very clear in the text
00:15:51 <Eddi|zuHause> also interesting is the next one: discrepancy between the "cookies" that you buy in the supermarket, and the "cookies" that you bake yourself
00:16:24 <AveiMil> do you know and or can you give practical example?
00:16:55 <Samu> i don't understand a word of german
00:19:20 <avdg> hmm, should I really learn German? :p
00:20:19 <Samu> I think in the near future we'll be forced to learn chinese
00:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see that happening really...
00:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause> not in our lifetime, maybe in 200 years...
00:21:55 <avdg> well, I have 1 big drawback, I don't like thats 'funmoment' which is in german :p
00:22:10 <avdg> even through he can't really understand german
00:22:18 <avdg> but its not limited to german :)
00:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i definitely don't understand you :p
00:22:39 <avdg> (includes english, filipino and even more language)
00:23:05 <avdg> my mind is forcing me again to type quickly
00:23:36 <avdg> the drawback is that I don't want to understand dads activity, for many personal reasons :p
00:24:44 <avdg> the good thing: if I learn German, of Spanish, I could do a full exam at the goverment, meaning I have "papers"
00:28:30 <avdg> (and no, I don't care about the exams now :))
00:32:02 <Eddi|zuHause> german is a really interesting language
00:32:17 <Eddi|zuHause> over large parts it is more complex, but also more logical than english
00:32:31 <avdg> each language is in some way logic :)
00:32:36 <avdg> else no1 would use it :p
00:34:47 <avdg> dutch is a bit more complex in comparison with english, but has many simple/simplified rules
00:34:48 <__ln__> There is a Spanish irregular verb that on the phonemic level is completely regular as far as I can see. Fascinating.
00:34:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes. but german is made up of rules most of the time, while english seems to be mate up of exceptions ;)
00:35:44 <avdg> in dutch, most exceptions with verbs are very old
00:36:02 <avdg> and new words are mostly taken over from other languages
00:38:19 <avdg> :) and actually it would be a good thing to learn german, since its an official language in Belgium
00:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> err... that has a reason ;)
00:39:12 <avdg> indeed, belgium is just a buffercountry :)
00:39:34 <Eddi|zuHause> after the 1st world war, the [majorly german speaking] cities Eupen and Malmedy were given to belgium.
00:40:07 <avdg> that too, but it isn't really such a big piece of land (in comparison of the german area)
00:40:14 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a promise to hold an election on this, but this was done in a very undemocratic manner, because they feared the outcome would be to return to germany
00:41:00 <avdg> besides, that piece wasn't that old and german was I think already been spoken in Belgium
00:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the language borders never really completely coincided with the country borders
00:41:55 <avdg> yeah, thats why I call Belgium the buffercountry
00:42:15 <avdg> its a country that has to solve problems of 3 different cultures
00:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> belgium wasn't even a separate country for that long...
00:43:14 <avdg> and flanders was a lot bigger, ages ago
00:43:37 <__ln__> homer simpson's neighbor?
00:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i presume belgian separatism was mostly some aftermath from the mess that napoleon left in central europe...
00:44:04 <avdg> in fact, if we could change the past a very little bit, it could be that the main language was dutch
00:44:41 <avdg> *main language of the world, such as english now is the day today
00:44:48 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, almost all major political difficulties in central europe can be traced back to napoleon ;)
00:45:19 <Samu> that portuguese-english on wordreference is fail
00:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> he really stirred up the place ;)
00:46:47 <Samu> I know what the problem is
00:47:33 <Samu> but that doesn't sound brazillian either, seems a mix of both
00:48:03 <avdg> that was because people where interested in proofing that the world was much bigger then they thought
00:48:27 <avdg> at that time people though that the world was a flat world with a boarder
00:49:53 <Samu> even wikipedia articles annoy me when they're written in portuguese
00:50:37 <Samu> it's a 2 in 1 article most of the time
00:51:05 <Samu> what happens in Brazil and in Portugal
01:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> was that a question?
01:04:47 <Samu> so, I was saying, during tunnel construction, the game raises the missing corner on that square and builds tunnel :p
01:06:47 <Samu> a bit similar to autoslope, but not the same thing, a bit more like the inverse
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01:07:45 <Samu> not sure if you're following
01:10:18 <__ln__> hmm, that sounds sensible.
01:13:34 <Samu> instead of making the land flat and build a piece of track/road, it makes it hilly in the correct direction for a tunnel to be constructed
01:18:00 <AveiMil> How did I add NewGRF to Bananas again?
01:18:39 <Samu> gotta go, good night all
01:18:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you log in and click upload?
01:19:09 <AveiMil> Where's the upload button?
01:19:32 <Eddi|zuHause> under "manage", possibly
01:19:50 <AveiMil> In order to view this section, you need to be a manager. Please sign up here to become one.
01:20:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the logging in part, i presume ;)
01:20:43 <AveiMil> and then you become a manager
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08:50:55 <andythenorth> I have two options
08:51:26 <andythenorth> one is to round up cargo amounts, so player always gets some output if there's input waiting
08:51:48 <andythenorth> at worst case, that means 1t in = 2t out
08:52:00 <andythenorth> which might not be desirable
08:52:13 <andythenorth> the other option is to not process cargo if less < some amount
08:53:54 <andythenorth> if there are two output cargos, the lowest unit is 1t, so yes
08:54:05 <planetmaker> well, first option seems easier. So... go for it
08:54:33 <andythenorth> it's bizarre gameplay though yes/no?
08:54:43 <planetmaker> it's a rounding effect
08:54:58 <planetmaker> who delivers 1t of coal to a steel plant?
08:55:22 <planetmaker> I deliever 100t or 110t. And then it's not so important whether I get 20 or 21t of steel
08:56:31 <planetmaker> I kinda fear the 2nd option is a sort-of cargo stockpile :-)
08:56:44 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it is
08:56:47 <planetmaker> but well. then go for that: make a stockpile with immediate 100% processing
08:57:01 <andythenorth> I think the second option would produce bug reports
08:57:34 <andythenorth> it's a head-scratcher
08:58:02 <planetmaker> both solutions will give you bug reports
08:58:18 <Rubidium> andythenorth: but with stockpile it's more realistic!
08:58:32 <Rubidium> you need a particular amount of the different cargos to be able to start production :)
08:58:42 <planetmaker> but in earlier times people used ressources more efficiently ;-)
08:59:10 <planetmaker> for gameplay: just produce slightly too much
08:59:20 <andythenorth> can't we just recode the game to support decimal maths?
08:59:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth: just always add during production a +1 to each output and be done processing 100%
09:00:15 <planetmaker> or better: something like max(calculation,1)
09:00:17 <andythenorth> I have to consider combinatory cargo as well
09:00:27 <planetmaker> that is: produce always 1
09:00:52 <andythenorth> it has to be if(cargo waiting > 0) {produce always 1}
09:00:59 <planetmaker> yes, that's what I mean
09:01:01 <andythenorth> otherwise, bad side effect :)
09:01:18 <planetmaker> sure :-) No doubt
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09:11:08 <andythenorth> could they be done with just the graph nodes, forget the links
09:11:44 <andythenorth> i.e. build stations with wormhole routes between them
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09:15:09 <andythenorth> Alberth: morening
09:18:42 <andythenorth> Alberth: the FIRS low-cargo amounts bug
09:18:47 <andythenorth> I'm fixing it...
09:19:15 <Rubidium> could you fix me some breakfast (in bed) while you're at it?
09:19:28 <andythenorth> seems the best solution is to be generous to player and provide min(actual produced amount, 1)
09:19:52 <andythenorth> Rubidium: there's no action 2 variables or cbs for that
09:20:00 <andythenorth> if you implement them, I'll use them
09:20:39 <Alberth> can't wait to play FIRS at 64x64 with trucks only :)
09:27:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21180 /branches/1.0/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
09:27:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
09:27:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Default service interval for ships/aircraft got switched [FS#4222] (r21155)
09:27:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Sort arrow was not accounted for in two windows causing it to be overwritten by the 'sort by' string [FS#4221] (r21151)
09:27:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Upper limit for snowline was too low [FS#4203] (r21078)
09:27:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Wrong (maximum) value shown for generation seed in the in-game console [FS#4192] (r21075)
09:27:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Crash when getting an industry ID at an offset that uses some 'old' style industry tile [FS#4157] (r20912)
09:31:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21181 /branches/1.0/src/ (48 files in 2 dirs):
09:31:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
09:31:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when disabling static NewGRFs (when joining/starting a server) [FS#4208] (r21130, r21129, r21128)
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09:59:30 <dnicholls> is it too early for an NFO question? :)
10:01:54 <Alberth> you'll never find out unless you try
10:04:23 <dnicholls> in that case, I am looking for a way to code a multi tile station with a randomly selected variation
10:04:43 <dnicholls> that is to say I want to randomly select an Action 2 when the station is built
10:05:52 <dnicholls> I can do it using a Random Action 2 with some of bits 0..15 of the whole station
10:06:50 <dnicholls> but those bits are fixed for the whole station, so if a player wants to rebuild the station with a different variation s/he has to demolish the entire station and then rebuild it
10:07:42 <dnicholls> so really I'm looking for something like var 61 for objects, but for stations. Unless I have missed something...
10:08:41 <dnicholls> Is there/could there be such a variable or alternative?
10:09:51 <frosch123> youj can clear single station tiles, so what should it do if you remove that tile
10:11:01 <planetmaker> the problem is that there's no related object really for stations. except maybe towns
10:11:19 <planetmaker> like for vehicles
10:11:27 <planetmaker> where the related one is the (lead) engine
10:12:42 <frosch123> however, you can use the animation frame of each tile to store some information
10:13:08 <frosch123> the animation callback can be triggered on construction, so you can store some pseudo-random value in the animationframe
10:13:18 <frosch123> e.g. the current ticknumber or so
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10:18:23 <dnicholls> I will give that a try, thank you
10:19:56 <Alberth> so the answer to your question is "no" :)
10:22:20 <dnicholls> it might be if I come back with a lot more questions :)
10:22:36 <planetmaker> do you know tt-forums.net ?
10:23:39 <planetmaker> the graphics development section there might also be helpful
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10:28:12 <dnicholls> I am registered as zeroeight there
10:29:31 <AveiMil> IND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE The industry cannot increase its production on the temperate climate (oil wells) <- is that what makes Oil Well's run dry?
10:29:47 <AveiMil> so if I wanted same behaviour for Oil Rig's I'll just set that flag
10:37:22 <AveiMil> planetmaker, how do I use FEAT_INDUSTRIES? Are industries items that have properties that can be changed just like vehicles?
10:38:56 <AveiMil> again I struggle to find a industry list with ID's to reference :(
10:43:04 <planetmaker> oh my god. There are even pre-defined constants in the NML documentation!
10:43:46 <andythenorth> gameplay goal framework...in nfo :P
10:45:10 <AveiMil> And how was I supposed to know that was in the refs.html document?
10:46:19 <AveiMil> so naturally I looked at industries document
10:47:32 <AveiMil> and all tehre is in that refs document is a list of INDUSTRYTYPE_STEEL_MILL
10:49:41 <AveiMil> spec_flags bitmask(flags) for flag values see Industry special flags
10:49:51 <AveiMil> now how do I know what bitmask is corresponding to IND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE The industry cannot increase its production on the temperate climate (oil wells)
10:49:53 <planetmaker> [11:45] <AveiMil> And how was I supposed to know that was in the refs.html document? <-- by looking the table of contents of the documentation perhaps?!
10:50:11 <AveiMil> planetmaker, I'd already been at refs.html, there was nothing useful there
10:50:24 <AveiMil> just a listing of industry types I hvae no idea what to do with
10:51:08 <planetmaker> how does that help you more than the list of pre-defined constants which do that translation number -> industry type for you?
10:52:18 <AveiMil> well, if you are saying that INDUSTRYTYPE_OIL_RIG = item 05 then sure that helps <- but I did not know that's how it worked
10:52:49 <AveiMil> and that you could do this: item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, OilRig, INDUSTRYTYPE_OIL_RIG) { property { spec_flags } } instead of this item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, OilRig, 05) { property { spec_flags } }
10:53:04 <AveiMil> how could I have intuitively known that?
10:53:22 <AveiMil> I've used item ID for everything else..
10:56:12 <planetmaker> well. How shall we explain it so that you understand it?
10:57:54 <Rubidium> planetmaker: big meta spike into back of skull and ask the operator to upload the nfo and nml instructions?
10:58:44 <AveiMil> eh, well you tell me how anyone without that knowledge in the first place can understand what those strings called "default industries" can possibly tell those are supposed to be ITEM ID's?
10:59:16 <AveiMil> either stick with using ID or stick with pre-defined constants
10:59:31 <AveiMil> or at least write a sentance that says "These are predefined item ID constants"
10:59:34 <andythenorth> AveiMil: you have it easy :D
11:00:02 <andythenorth> old-school nfo :)
11:00:31 <AveiMil> yeah nml looks much easier and better,
11:01:11 <AveiMil> planetmaker, item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, OilRig, 05) { property { spec_flags: IND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE; } }
11:01:12 <Rubidium> andythenorth: that ain't old-school nfo
11:01:33 <AveiMil> spec_flags bitmask(flags) for flag values see Industry special flags
11:01:37 <AveiMil> there's no bit values there
11:01:57 <andythenorth> there's probably a golden ratio of comments:code that indicates how baroque a language is
11:02:17 <Rubidium> \d, \b, includes, defines... all not part of the (older) nfo versions :)
11:02:44 <Alberth> how many lines you need for hello world may be a better indication :)
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11:03:21 <Rubidium> C, C++, Java all need only one line
11:03:52 <AveiMil> Who else other than planetmaker knows nml? I think I'm annoying him
11:06:00 * andythenorth is glad he had a lost weekend with the text stack last year
11:06:02 <Alberth> complaining that something is bad is very counter-productive, better think of a way to improve the current situation, and fix it
11:06:19 <andythenorth> debugging FIRS is much easier with the debug output in industry window :)
11:06:35 <AveiMil> Alberth, are you talking to me?
11:07:14 <AveiMil> How do I fix 'it'? I'm trying to learn how to do something and I don't get it based on the documentation, so how would I fix that before I know it my self?
11:08:01 <AveiMil> I know a bit more but I don't know what I need yet
11:08:36 <AveiMil> but now I have another problem.
11:08:53 <AveiMil> I don't know what the default value is for Oil Rig and I hvae no idea how to find the default flag value
11:09:33 <andythenorth> this production code is starting to smell of nested templates
11:09:41 <andythenorth> or functions in nfo
11:09:49 <Alberth> I'd expect spec_flags: bitmask( IND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE)
11:10:15 <planetmaker> I have my doubts that there's anywhere a comprehensive table of that
11:10:49 <AveiMil> So how would you extract it from the game?
11:10:56 <AveiMil> can nml make message boxes and display a value? :P
11:11:14 <andythenorth> what property are you after?
11:11:18 <andythenorth> newgrf debug may show it
11:11:28 <AveiMil> the default special flag value for Oil Rigs
11:11:28 <andythenorth> maybe not for default industry though
11:11:44 <andythenorth> it will be in ottd source
11:12:25 <andythenorth> alternatively, AveiMil have you got newgrf debug tools enabled in game?
11:12:49 <AveiMil> Don't know, guess not?
11:12:51 <planetmaker> [12:10] <AveiMil> can nml make message boxes and display a value? :P <-- eh? NewGRFs don't create windows...
11:13:17 <AveiMil> planetmaker, did not think so, but how would I find the default special falg bitmask value?
11:13:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: newgrf industries *can* write to the industry window though. That's how FIRS-specific debug works
11:13:38 <planetmaker> AveiMil: by knowing how the industries behave ingame
11:13:55 <planetmaker> by knowing how they work. Then the names are quite self-explanatory
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11:14:11 <Terkhen> AveiMil: src/table/build_industry.h
11:14:13 <planetmaker> AveiMil: it can be done without guessing :-)
11:14:33 <Terkhen> also, once you are given the name of something, you can probably find it yourself
11:14:54 <andythenorth> newgrf debug doesn't work for default industry. I thought that might be the case :P
11:15:17 <planetmaker> AveiMil: but if things are NOT self-explanatory: indeed, please follow Alberth's advice: Help us improve the documentation of NML
11:15:23 <andythenorth> anyone got HEQS 0.9.1...I have a bug :P
11:15:24 <planetmaker> NML is not yet even released
11:15:33 <andythenorth> needs confirming
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11:15:48 <planetmaker> so of course its documentation is also not complete. But you might be able to help a great deal
11:16:40 <AveiMil> sure, tell me *how* to help
11:17:20 <AveiMil> Terkhen, I can't make any sense out of that document
11:17:35 <Alberth> andythenorth: just upgraded from 0.7.1, what do you need?
11:17:46 <andythenorth> check the Gmund Mog truck
11:17:54 <andythenorth> in my game it appears as the front half of a tractor :P
11:18:16 <planetmaker> AveiMil: by writing missing parts of the documentation :-)
11:18:36 <planetmaker> E.g. adding those information to the documentation which you needed to ask
11:19:04 <planetmaker> It's as simple as editing html
11:19:23 <planetmaker> Or by adding and expanding the lists with all those default values.
11:19:28 <planetmaker> That'd be quite helpful.
11:19:31 <AveiMil> how do I gain access?
11:19:36 <planetmaker> How? Do you have mercurial / hg installed?
11:19:38 <AveiMil> where do I send the edited files
11:19:57 <AveiMil> wth, not how do I write it, what's the process?
11:20:08 <planetmaker> [12:19] <planetmaker> How? Do you have mercurial / hg installed?
11:20:34 <planetmaker> A version control system. Which allows to checkout the nml repository
11:21:33 <planetmaker> if that's too complicated: Just edit your downloaded html files
11:21:43 <planetmaker> Amend the information. And post them to the nml bug tracker
11:21:48 <Alberth> andythenorth: it does, with lights like Grindelwald foundry on its roof
11:22:03 <AveiMil> I'd rather edit the files directly, that sounds like a hassle
11:22:03 <planetmaker> you know that one already :-)
11:22:52 <planetmaker> well. Using mercurial to make sure you always edit the latest version and being able to give us the patches would make it easier for us...
11:22:54 <AveiMil> So I'd like a download link for mercurial thing you use and instructions on how to use it if I'm to help with the documentaiton
11:23:50 <Alberth> andythenorth: interesting combination :p
11:24:22 <planetmaker> you're interested in 'installing mercurial' and 'using tortoiseHG'
11:24:33 <AveiMil> alright, thanks, I'll check that out
11:24:47 <AveiMil> have to play StarCraft 2 now though, friend is bitching
11:25:04 <planetmaker> AveiMil: but as said: it's not mandatory. You have the documentation along with your NML. You could just take those html files and edit them
11:25:39 <planetmaker> But you'd make our lives much easier when using mercurial. AND you'd make your life easier as it becomes easy as clicking 'update' to get the newest NML version for you
11:26:12 <planetmaker> which at the current state of affairs might be quite desirable from time to time
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11:28:39 <andythenorth> number of downloads of HEQS is quite reasonable, but no-one reported the bug :(
11:28:51 <andythenorth> that means, either no-one using it, or they didn't notice
11:29:04 <andythenorth> or they use Bananas and have no idea how to report a bug :o
11:29:50 <dnicholls> or they think it looks ok :)
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11:40:25 <Alberth> 0.9.1 is only a week old, not many poeple have tried it, I think
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11:41:31 <andythenorth> Alberth: now they get 0.9.2 instead :)
11:43:36 <frosch123> 5 download already, you passed #coop pack 8.0
11:45:58 <Alberth> we should have a nop.grf which does nothing to act as a base reference :)
11:49:54 <Rubidium> Alberth: that's called "Fix TTD grf bugs"
11:51:01 <Rubidium> as it does nothing, besides mess up graphics when OpenGFX is used
11:54:10 <andythenorth> do I still bother offering opportunity for TTDPatch version of HEQS
11:54:23 <andythenorth> no-one has taken it up as a project
12:05:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21182 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp.cpp network_server.cpp): -Fix: possible just-freed memory reads
12:09:13 <Ammler> andythenorth: you should add [OTTD] as prefix to the thread title :-)
12:09:35 <andythenorth> it has it as a suffix
12:10:05 <Ammler> yes, that is uncommon :-P
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12:22:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21183 /branches/1.0/src/network/network_client.cpp:
12:22:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
12:22:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Under some circumstances the file handle of the downloaded savegame would not be closed, and validity of the handled was not checked in all cases (r21027)
12:22:35 * andythenorth finishes faffing with HEQS
12:22:42 <andythenorth> back to FIRS production code :P
12:31:28 * andythenorth gets shafted by minimum cargo distribution amounts :|
12:35:22 <andythenorth> this code means 1t in can = 7t out
12:35:51 * andythenorth needs to rethink
12:36:11 <Rubidium> nice you can get so much air into your products
12:36:42 <planetmaker> polysterene packaging.
12:37:26 <Rubidium> hmm, does that get heavier when "inflating" that?
12:37:33 * andythenorth wonders if this really matters
12:37:39 <andythenorth> doing it right is...harder
12:37:53 <Rubidium> thought the gas was already in the polystyrene and a bit of heat puffs them up
12:39:10 <andythenorth> fuck it, I'll use more registers :P
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12:42:08 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't you just do $A = input_amount; $B = $A / processing_step, $C = $A % processing_step?
12:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and in the next delivery, you do $A = input_amount + $C
12:42:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21184 /branches/1.0/ (4 files in 3 dirs):
12:42:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
12:42:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Reading (very) recently freed memory (r21182)
12:42:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [Windows] Make sure to be upgraded openttd is not running when installing [FS#4212] (r21146)
12:42:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: with maybe a few extra bits for various other cases that need handling
12:43:13 <andythenorth> but that would be stockpiling
12:43:19 <andythenorth> and stockpiling is a no no
12:44:14 <andythenorth> it will produce bug reports
12:44:29 <Eddi|zuHause> "processing_step" is like "8t input". you automatically do _all_ processing steps that have a full cargo amount
12:44:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the remainder ($C) gets stored until the next delivery
12:45:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the remainder is always < processing_step
12:45:16 <andythenorth> "bug: why didn't my cargo get processed?"
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12:47:10 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: gives nice results when several companies deliver
12:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: why would that matter?
12:49:08 <Alberth> I bring 7t, then my competitor brings 1t and gets paid
12:49:31 <Eddi|zuHause> what? this is not about being paid
12:49:38 * andythenorth has solved it adequately for 2 out of 3 production templates
12:50:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: this is about: currently, in this scenario, 0 cargo is produced.
12:50:41 <Alberth> I am aware of that :p
12:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> because 7 is rounded down to 0, and 1 is also rounded down to 0
12:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> 8 would be rounded to 8
12:51:21 <andythenorth> my solution is this:
12:51:33 <andythenorth> is cargo waiting?
12:51:42 <andythenorth> no = no production from this cargo
12:51:59 <andythenorth> yes = take max(calculated production, 1)
12:52:02 <Eddi|zuHause> funny solution: upon each delivery, you add a value: random(0,production_step)
12:52:33 <andythenorth> where there are two output cargos I have to also handle: take max((output/2), 1)
12:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> on average, that should even out the rounding errors ;)
12:52:47 <andythenorth> I've got it mostly solved
12:58:39 <andythenorth> Alberth: it's done
12:59:24 <andythenorth> also - nice work on the industry commits :)
13:01:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21185 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
13:01:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:01:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 5 changes by josesun
13:01:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 17 changes by USephiroth
13:01:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by planetmaker
13:01:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 5 changes by Phreeze
13:01:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 5 changes by xaxa
13:01:53 <planetmaker> now, that's totally out-of-schedule ;-)
13:01:54 <frosch123> time passed so fast today :)
13:03:24 <Rubidium> remember the days when TrueBrain used to complain his clock would run faster when there was more network traffic?
13:04:17 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that was one weird problem, yes :)
13:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> how did that happen? ;)
13:05:11 <TrueBrain> dynamic CPU + lack of kernel support, I believe :)
13:06:31 <TrueBrain> but given I barely remember it, I am surprised Rubidium does :)
13:07:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21186 /branches/1.0/src/lang/ (21 files in 2 dirs): [1.0] -Backport string updates from trunk
13:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... german science fiction... that can't possibly be successful...
13:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> err... that's more like polish science fiction ;)
13:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's called "Alpha 0.7"
13:09:05 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: my brain has the awkward ability to easily retain non-useful information while having an inability to easily retain useful information
13:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and starts today on SWR [reruns later this week on MDR and Arte]
13:09:49 <Eddi|zuHause> something about 1984 meets Minority Report
13:12:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "In 2017, the EU Summit wants to discuss implementing 'Brain Scanners' created by the 'Neuroscientifical Precrime-Center' (NPC)"
13:13:23 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and some stuff about "Digital Natives" protesting...
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13:57:36 <AveiMil> andythenorth, I don't understand this debugging thing
13:57:48 <AveiMil> how do I get up the debugging properties window for Oil Wells?
13:58:04 <AveiMil> setting set newgrf_developer_tools 1 and using the land area info tool dosen't work
13:58:14 <Alberth> default industries don't do newgrf debugging
13:58:28 <Alberth> (since they are not newgrfs)
13:58:50 <AveiMil> then I'm back to not being able to find the default Oil Rig values
14:01:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21187 /branches/1.0/ (5 files in 3 dirs): [1.0] -Prepare for 1.0.5-RC2
14:03:14 <AveiMil> Thanks Ammler, but how do I know what column is what?
14:03:29 <Ammler> by reading parent page
14:03:51 <Rawh> Does OpenTTD no longer have a MAC build? The OS/2 files include .exe files.... I'm seriously confused ;(
14:04:26 <AveiMil> Special industry flags to define special behavior (1A)
14:04:32 <AveiMil> don't see any 1A reference
14:04:42 <Rawh> Either way if it isn't the same, there's no macbuild...
14:05:08 <Rawh> I remember seeing some news about no longer having someone around to make a build but I can't find anything about that anymore :(
14:05:08 <Rubidium> likewise that there is no mac port maintainer
14:05:27 <Rawh> Well there you have it I suppose :(
14:05:45 <Rawh> Might try a compiled out of the source, downloading the dev tools now :)
14:06:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21188 /tags/1.0.5-RC2/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Release 1.0.5-RC2
14:07:25 <planetmaker> that usually should work, Rawh
14:07:35 *** planetmaker changes topic to "1.0.4, 1.0.5-RC2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | English only"
14:07:55 <Rawh> Just cought myself without a gcc compiler, downloading the xcode toolkit from apple, slow stuff, doesn't like to go over 1mb/s ;(
14:08:29 <Rubidium> sucks when you can't use the bandwidth you have when you like to us it, right?
14:09:02 <planetmaker> Rawh: you osx ships with all that stuff
14:09:06 <Rawh> Yeh, I'm one of the lucky few in my country that can use glassfiber at home, booming download speeds, when the source allowes it
14:09:37 <Rawh> planetmaker: perhaps, but it would be in need of a version upgrade I reckon, might be better of to just download the new one then instead of trying to get it from the dvd's
14:09:40 <planetmaker> you can just install it from your cd / dvd
14:10:08 <Rawh> plus the download itself goes faster then just searching for the dvd, I bet :D
14:10:22 <__ln__> there are some known problems with some projects with old Xcode tools versions
14:10:44 <__ln__> Rawh: btw, just to save your time, do you have 10.5 and are you downloading Xcode 3.2.x?
14:10:55 <Rawh> ingame related question: I often use the temperature templates to generate new maps but find myself staring at a woodchopper plant without the resource wood on the map, there any way to fix this?
14:11:40 <Rawh> __ln__: 10.5.8 and downloading 312_2621_dev
14:11:54 <__ln__> Rawh: ok, nevermind then.
14:12:15 <Rawh> Alberth: I can't seem to find them in the funding list :(
14:12:42 <Rawh> __ln__: I noticed a 2.8G file before, not bothering on downloading that one so instead I just took the one I'm doing now, being only 900mb
14:12:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Rawh: setting "funding primary industries: {never,like secondary,prospecting}"
14:13:38 <Alberth> Rawh: advanced settings -> economy -> industries -> manual primary industries construction method
14:14:29 <Rawh> Eddi|zuHause: prospecting would be the thing to choose then?
14:14:56 <Alberth> 'like secondary' is just build where you point
14:15:06 <Alberth> 'prospecting' may fail
14:15:31 <Alberth> ie they look for good trees first :)
14:15:53 * Alberth should save test games :p
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14:24:40 <Rawh> great, the download just stopped
14:51:42 <AveiMil> Ammler, there still? I went afk to watch the Arsenal game. The page you linked is where I went but I really don't get it.
14:53:26 <Ammler> AveiMil: just convert the values to binary
14:53:37 <Ammler> then you might see any relation
14:54:07 <Ammler> bitswitches are quite common in nfo
14:55:09 <AveiMil> Ammler, I'm really lost :( convert what values to binary and compare them to what
14:55:26 <AveiMil> I just want to know what column Special industry flags to define special behavior (1A) corresponds to
14:56:50 <Rubidium> planetmaker: then you might need to check the other links to osx binaries
14:57:30 <planetmaker> I think I usually did...
14:58:24 <AveiMil> Ammler, can you give me example of how I do this?
15:01:47 <AveiMil> AAHHHH!! I'm going mental
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15:06:06 <AveiMil> I'm using NML, so that looks greek to me
15:07:23 <AveiMil> What I need is help to understand the logical relationship between those two tables I linked.
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15:07:39 <AveiMil> There does not seem to be any.
15:08:18 <Ammler> you asked for default properities and for 1A
15:08:30 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, OilRig, 05) { property { spec_flags: <- WTF goes here? ->; } }
15:09:12 <Ammler> don't use ttdpatch wiki for nml
15:10:24 <planetmaker> AveiMil: a bitmask of the flags
15:10:30 <frosch123> AveiMil: a bitset of IND_FLAG_xxx flags
15:11:08 <AveiMil> yeah and what's the default bit set value?
15:11:34 <frosch123> AveiMil: if you do not want to modify it, just don't set the property
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15:12:00 <AveiMil> I want to modify it, but I want to know what the defualt is first
15:12:02 <planetmaker> yes. when you're using an existing ID, not setting a property keeps its value
15:12:21 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
15:12:24 <Alberth> he probably wants to change one bit
15:12:35 <frosch123> AveiMil: that's listed on the page linked by ammler as well
15:12:52 <AveiMil> If you want these two: The industry is built on water (oil rig) // The industry is built only after 1960 (oil rig)
15:12:52 <Ammler> [16:09] <Ammler> don't use ttdpatch wiki for nml
15:12:55 <AveiMil> The bitset value = 204?
15:13:11 <planetmaker> AveiMil: the industry special flags description does tell you...
15:13:33 <planetmaker> every description contains the default industries to which they apply...
15:13:33 <AveiMil> Woot? All it says are its flag and meaning
15:13:51 <AveiMil> so those flags are unique to that industry?
15:13:52 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: note that the "values" given are in Hex
15:13:53 <planetmaker> reading a bit more would sometimes really help you instead of complaining about missing information without even reading.
15:14:06 <planetmaker> That impression is something which comes quite easily...
15:14:07 <AveiMil> I've read all the descriptions
15:14:13 <frosch123> AveiMil: "spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_CUT_TREES, IND_FLAG_ONLY_IN_TOWNS)" for example
15:14:15 <planetmaker> The industry periodically plants fields around itself (temperate and arctic farms)
15:14:24 <planetmaker> ND_FLAG_CUT_TREES The industry cuts trees around itself and produces its first output cargo from them (lumber mill)
15:14:32 <planetmaker> so you haven't even read it
15:14:58 <AveiMil> yeah I have, I just did not understand what to do with that.
15:15:10 <AveiMil> I thought spec_flags had to be a number
15:15:15 <AveiMil> frosch123, that's a bit set?
15:15:43 <AveiMil> see that's the info I needed, if it's that simple
15:16:01 <planetmaker> AveiMil: then please read the documentation on the action0 of industries
15:16:02 <AveiMil> again, that's not freaking intuitive
15:16:13 <planetmaker> and bitmask is explain in the NML language section
15:17:28 <AveiMil> frosch123, thank you, finally a clear cut answer
15:24:11 <Ammler> [16:16] <planetmaker> AveiMil: then please read the documentation on the action0 of industries <-- there is no action0 in nml, is there? ;-)
15:24:28 <planetmaker> :-) Indeed. It's called 'properties'
15:24:41 <Ammler> you are lost in source :-P
15:25:00 <planetmaker> or property { ... }
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15:48:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21189 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Force a minimum speed for trains when using the realistic acceleration model.
15:54:31 <Yexo> AveiMil: we can't help it if you didn't read parts of the documentation, but if some parts are not clear enough it'd be a great help if you could rewrite it to be more clear
15:57:57 <avdg> this client is getting more unstable with the time
16:01:19 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, OilRig, INDUSTRYTYPE_OIL_RIG) { property { spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960, IND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE, ); } }
16:01:20 <AveiMil> nmlc: "input", line 420: Unrecognized identifier 'INDUSTRYTYPE_OIL_RIG' encounte
16:03:14 <AveiMil> so that does not work planetmaker
16:03:21 <planetmaker> it should, though
16:04:20 <planetmaker> does it work with 5 instead of INDUSTRYTYPE_OIL_RIG?
16:05:01 <AveiMil> [11:51] <@planetmaker> how does that help you more than the list of pre-defined constants which do that translation number -> industry type for you?
16:05:01 <AveiMil> [11:52] <AveiMil> well, if you are saying that INDUSTRYTYPE_OIL_RIG = item 05 then sure that helps <- but I did not know that's how it worked
16:05:01 <AveiMil> [11:52] <AveiMil> and that you could do this: item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, OilRig, INDUSTRYTYPE_OIL_RIG) { property { spec_flags } } instead of this item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, OilRig, 05) { property { spec_flags } }
16:05:22 <AveiMil> yes, with 5 now it "works"
16:05:28 <AveiMil> in that it gives me a new error: nmlc: "input", line 420: Unrecognized identifier 'IND_FLAG_BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960
16:05:46 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, OilRig, 5) { property { spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960, IND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE ); } } <- that's the line
16:06:06 <planetmaker> and you have an NML version which defines those things and not an outdated one?
16:06:18 <planetmaker> what's your nml version?
16:06:21 <AveiMil> #default industry IDs
16:06:21 <AveiMil> 'INDUSTRYTYPE_COAL_MINE' : 0x00,
16:06:25 <AveiMil> 'INDUSTRYTYPE_OIL_RIG' : 0x05,
16:06:33 <AveiMil> global_constants.py has that
16:07:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21190 /extra/website/bananas/views.py: [website] -Fix: [Bananas] directory creation fails when the parent directory doesn't exist yet, so make sure the parent directory gets created as well
16:07:39 <AveiMil> but I don't care about taht really, it's just as easy to use the itemID
16:07:59 <AveiMil> but why is it not accepting spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960, IND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE );
16:09:26 <Rawh> jeez 'make test' takes a bit of time :)
16:13:16 <Rawh> -ERROR: The AI died unexpectedly.
16:13:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21191 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Doc: Add missing information for a parameter of CmdFoundTown.
16:14:37 <Rawh> do I need to place the data/* files somewhere, in the source folder, to do a 'make test' succesfully ?
16:16:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21192 /trunk/src/townname.cpp: -Fix (r15505)[FS#4226]: Use non-interactive randomness for townnames on map generation, so they are controlled by the generation-seed as well.
16:18:31 <AveiMil> planetmaker, I notice in globa_constants it's written like this
16:18:32 <AveiMil> 'IND_FLAG_BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960 '
16:18:38 <AveiMil> lots of spaces before the last '
16:20:41 <planetmaker> but could you do me one favour: and not highlight me for every question every 10 minutes?
16:21:01 <Rawh> [17:19:03]RIchard@wickedmac:~/Downloads/openttd-1.0.4 # make install
16:21:01 <Rawh> [INSTALL] Cannot install the OSX Application Bundle
16:22:30 <Hirundo> AveiMil: update your nml, it has been fixed recently IIRC
16:22:56 <Rawh> planetmaker: any idea where I need to place the data directory?
16:23:11 <Rawh> with the grf and dat files?
16:23:12 <AveiMil> why not? your not giving me any useful answers
16:23:19 <planetmaker> Rawh: you should have one user-wide data dir
16:23:29 <planetmaker> AveiMil: because I'll now put you on ignore
16:24:05 <Rawh> makes sense, next thing would be to find it :)
16:24:27 <planetmaker> sorry... ~/Documents/OpenTTD/data
16:24:54 <planetmaker> once there every OpenTTD you have uses it
16:25:03 <planetmaker> no need to install it for every new(er) version
16:25:10 <planetmaker> or others which you might have in parallel
16:26:24 <Rawh> lets have a try with that
16:26:31 <Rawh> seems 'make run' makes it launch :)
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16:28:56 <planetmaker> Rawh: if you just build it for yourself a simple ./configure && make && make run is sufficient
16:29:00 <planetmaker> no need to build bundles
16:29:50 <Rawh> yeh I noticed the bundle command makes it possible to make quite a few of those
16:30:11 <Rawh> sadly the bundle for the mac doesnt seem to work, the dmg file that gets created won't mount :(
16:30:18 <planetmaker> bundles are useful, if you want to distribute OpenTTD. They make sure that you ship all files which are needed
16:30:43 <planetmaker> you build bundle_dmg and then double-clicked the dmg?
16:30:46 <planetmaker> and nothing happens?
16:30:51 <Rawh> I clicked when I saw the file, might've been to soon with that :)
16:30:59 <AveiMil> Hirundo, I updated my NML to the latest version
16:31:19 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, CoalMine, 0) { property { spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_BUILT_ON_WATER); } }
16:31:20 <AveiMil> nmlc: "input", line 420: Unrecognized identifier 'IND_FLAG_BUILT_ON_WATER' encountered
16:31:22 <Yexo> AveiMil: "latest" it no accurate description of a version
16:31:37 <Yexo> see, that is the latest nightly
16:31:43 <Yexo> not the latest version in the repository
16:31:50 <Yexo> r1035 has been commited +- 5 hours ago
16:31:53 <Rawh> planetmaker: let me have a try with it again
16:32:03 <Yexo> but the nightly will only be built in an hour or so
16:32:14 <Rawh> would you want to have the file (for the site) if it works?
16:32:19 <AveiMil> What version should I get then?
16:32:47 <Yexo> either start using mercurial and update via that or wait about one hour for the next nightly
16:32:50 <planetmaker> Rawh: not needed, but thanks
16:33:08 <planetmaker> building OSX is not our problem
16:33:22 <Rawh> yep it seems I was to quick with mounting
16:33:24 <planetmaker> Fixing and maintaining proper working of OpenTTD on OSX is
16:33:50 <Rawh> I'd rather use the bundle, at least that way I have an icon I can link on my taskbar (lazy fix, I know :))
16:34:21 <planetmaker> that's what the bundle is meant for, yes
16:34:37 <Yexo> AveiMil: yes, exactly. The bug has been fixed 5 hours ago
16:34:53 <Yexo> the nightly is build every day at 18:18 (at least that's when the build process starts)
16:35:23 <planetmaker> yeah... but de-facto it takes quite a few minutes to build all repositories. So... 18:18h will be a few minutes too early :-)
16:35:29 <AveiMil> alright then, thank you, I'll just wait
16:35:35 <planetmaker> But then... the time stamp on bundles.openttdcoop.org will tell ou
16:35:35 <Rawh> Yexo: it's rather save to assume the nightly build would have possible things that might be wrong with it, wouldn't be much 'nightly' if it wasn't :)
16:36:15 <Putr> Hi! I compiled a list of ~400 slovenian town names for a nother project. I see there is no option to use SLovenian names in openttd. Can i import the town names somehow? how is this done??
16:36:29 <Yexo> you can create a newgrf with town names
16:36:33 <planetmaker> Putr: make a townname newgrf
16:36:53 <Putr> can you point me to a URL where this is explained?
16:37:22 <planetmaker> yexo seems to be one step ahead of me :-)
16:37:25 <Ammler> but de-facto nml and grfcodec are build start 10 mins before, so you should have the new nightly at 18:18 :-P
16:37:55 <Yexo> well, I did say 1 hour, which would be around 18:30 :)
16:38:34 <Lakie> uh, 'magic pink', I thought sprites needed to be on 'magic blue'.
16:38:53 <planetmaker> that happens when you use the wrong palette
16:38:56 <Yexo> Putr: do you want certain names to occur more often than others?
16:39:08 <Lakie> magic blue is in the same place on both palettes, iirc
16:39:28 <Putr> Ye that would be cool.. so i could show are main towns always, and the rest would be filled by radom towns
16:40:34 <Putr> ok nevermind, just fount that a newgrf file for slovenain names already exsists
16:40:37 <Yexo> but if you already have the data in another format it's not much work to change the script
16:41:26 <Putr> everytime i look at the online content there's more stuff :)
16:44:51 <Putr> the only problem is you cant click the URL in the content info
16:45:25 <Rawh> still can't seem to find the 'forest' to fund as new resource place
16:45:35 <planetmaker> check your adv. settings
16:45:39 <Rawh> I've got numerous of lumbermills in the area
16:45:44 <planetmaker> maybe primary industries are forbidden to be funded
16:45:58 <planetmaker> industries section obviously :-)
16:46:02 <Rawh> It's set on the setting "same as parent industry"
16:47:31 <planetmaker> then it should usually work. Or I miss something, too :-)
16:47:52 <planetmaker> do you have sufficient money?
16:48:03 <planetmaker> like 15 million in GBP?
16:48:48 <V453000> snow line in arctic? :)
16:49:04 <planetmaker> funding industries is quite expensive, especially if you want to build primary ones without prospecting
16:49:14 <planetmaker> V453000: then you should still have the choice, but building fails
16:49:53 <V453000> I thought he has problems with finding the place :)
16:49:58 <Rawh> I just started a new game, don't really have any cash just yet.
16:50:12 <Rawh> It could just be that it's not visible till I have enough money ingame
16:50:46 <Rawh> meh, to bad I couldn't compile with some lib or I would be able to use my old savegame and try it there >.<
16:51:19 <planetmaker> just install the lib with macports :-)
16:52:08 <planetmaker> sudo port install lzo2
16:52:19 <planetmaker> if you have macports installed.
16:52:31 <planetmaker> I don't know the depenencies... It might install a few things :-)
16:52:41 <Rawh> don't have it installed, old macbook, not a lot of space available
16:53:29 <Rawh> meh, might actually go search for that mac dvd anyway :P
16:55:19 <planetmaker> Rawh: but did you try? do your old savegames fail to load?
16:57:10 <Rawh> haven't tried it, I just got a warning when compiling and it told me to try --without-liblzo2 but also told me loading old savegames wouldn't be possible then
16:57:17 <Rawh> haven't forced anything just yet :)
16:57:30 <Rawh> errrr s/compiling/configuring
16:58:21 <planetmaker> try before you go through unnecessary trouble
16:59:02 <planetmaker> these old savegames referred to are meanwhile quite old :-)
17:06:33 <Rawh> was playing 073, now its 104
17:07:52 * Rubidium so wants to release 10.4 to make 104 ambiguous
17:08:19 <Rawh> seems to be loading fine
17:09:51 <Rawh> well time to spend some time playing the new version... afk!
17:10:04 <Rawh> planetmaker: thanks for all the help nontheless, much appriciated! :)
17:14:02 <Yexo> AveiMil: new nml version is available
17:14:45 <avdg> hmm, its raining bugreports
17:15:04 <Rubidium> it's just raining water here
17:15:19 <avdg> bugtracker, when would it stop? (never :p)
17:15:20 * Rubidium still wants to rename nml to 新幹線
17:16:08 <Rubidium> avdg: guess the weather in Europe is bad, so everyone is inside... thus more people playing OpenTTD and finding things they think are bugs
17:16:43 <avdg> then there are more jobs, so we have a better economy, end of story :)
17:17:32 *** Chillosophy has joined #openttd
17:18:25 <planetmaker> Rubidium: but... what do Shinkansens have to do with NML (except that they can be programmed in it)?
17:18:39 <planetmaker> But it surely would give some people something to ponder :-)
17:18:51 <planetmaker> And some people some nice problems to actually spell it here :-P
17:19:03 <Rubidium> planetmaker: shinkansen translates (badly) to new main line
17:19:27 <planetmaker> that's something google translate doesn't know ;-)
17:19:46 <planetmaker> every day something new
17:20:59 <frosch123> hmm, none of my fonts can display what rb wrote :(
17:23:05 <frosch123> i thought the shape of the letters would have been important :)
17:23:45 <Lakie> Do you not have any easten fonts installed?
17:23:57 <frosch123> i can run ottd in chinese fine
17:24:13 <frosch123> hmm, wait, that was back on my gentoo machine..
17:24:20 * Lakie is guessing thats japanese...
17:24:49 <Rubidium> what matters most is that its Kanji
17:24:49 <frosch123> yeah, i am lacking cjk characters, only arabic
17:31:15 <frosch123> hmm, sounds like unifont is the package i need :)
17:33:19 *** IchGuckLive has joined #openttd
17:34:01 <IchGuckLive> Hi all Im friom Germany and just presst Generate on the 1.0.5RC2 on lucid
17:34:38 <IchGuckLive> i found out to create a trainservice and the train movet to the end trainstation
17:35:03 <IchGuckLive> and now ? it carryd corn 3loads
17:35:27 <Terkhen> Samu: search for "buy shares", at the forums or at the wiki
17:35:32 <IchGuckLive> do i have to onload at the end and then give order to move back and force ?
17:37:47 <Samu> how do i search the forum, sometimes there's a search button, sometimes there isn't
17:38:05 <planetmaker> IchGuckLive: you just give it orders to got to A and B
17:38:10 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
17:38:24 <planetmaker> it will load and unload automatically, if things are to be loaded or unloaded respectively
17:38:34 <planetmaker> See also our wiki with the introduction
17:38:58 <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: Thanks i did what wiki instructed me to do
17:39:14 <Terkhen> Samu: the search button is always in the same place
17:39:41 <planetmaker> IchGuckLive: cargo will only be transported to the station once there was a vehicle which tried to transport it
17:39:49 <Samu> sometimes it's at the top, sometimes at the bottom sometimes there isn't anywhere I can see
17:40:45 <Samu> I am getting outdated information
17:40:55 <Samu> can you really buy other companies?
17:41:14 <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: thanks the train moved no back to the Deppo -> i want it to do this without a click
17:42:02 <planetmaker> the 'play me' button? ;-)
17:42:19 <planetmaker> sorry, I don't understand your question
17:44:29 <frosch123> Samu: you can only take over ai companies
17:45:00 <frosch123> well, an bankrupt ones
17:47:49 *** fjb is now known as Guest870
17:51:02 <Samu> I don't get it, I gotta try this myself
17:52:15 <Samu> so, when giving money to another company, the company value maintains the same?
17:52:49 <Samu> company A gives money to company B? Result: company A decreases value, company B increases value
17:52:56 <Samu> shouldn't it be how it works?
17:55:44 <Samu> how's the company value calculated?
17:56:39 <planetmaker> value of assets + money - loan
17:57:16 <frosch123> Samu: what's your problem? transfering money from/to a company changes the company value. so if you continue transfering to it and back you create a repeating raising and falling stock price
17:57:27 <frosch123> with predictable stock prices you can make money
17:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the entire stock system needs to be redesigned
17:58:23 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you want to forbid insider trades? :p
17:59:03 <Samu> I really have no clue about what you're saying...
17:59:13 <Samu> lol, I don't understand money-related stuff
17:59:51 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: or do you want to remove public shares, i.e. the company owns 100% of its shares at the start, and only inter-company trading is allowed?
18:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: if it were up to me, the entire stock feature is just removed.
18:01:10 <frosch123> he, you wanted to redesign it :p
18:01:44 <Eddi|zuHause> NULL is also a design ;)
18:02:02 <frosch123> but we already have that option
18:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but people still try to enable it ;)
18:05:09 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
18:06:46 <Samu> Shouldn't buying 25% of a company B value be the same as giving that company 25% of company A's current money, decreasing company A value and increasing company B value? Please enlighten me, I don't understand shares in real life either
18:08:35 <Terkhen> Samu: please, use the search function
18:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone checked whether that is the first time a user requests more than 15 companies since the increase from 8 to 15?
18:14:41 <Samu> There is no page titled "company value". You can create this page.
18:18:44 <Samu> I give up, can't find what I want
18:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is xiong colour blind or did he just mix up meaning of pink and blue?
18:19:19 <Rubidium> the person is gender confused?
18:19:39 <Samu> I'm still testing TTD passage from 2049 to 2050, current year is 1989
18:19:53 <Samu> I'll let you know once it finishes, probably in 2 or 3 days
18:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: apparently, 200-ish years ago in england, all little children were called "girls", and pink was a male colour, and blue was a female colour ;)
18:24:51 <Samu> oh, why aren't there a max of 16 companies? there's 16 colors, or is it a network issue?
18:25:31 <glx> only 15 colors are usable
18:25:33 <Samu> yeah, but I just read a question on the forum
18:27:00 <Samu> what happens to the remaining color?
18:28:03 <TrueBrain> it is easting by the big fat cookiemonster
18:28:31 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
18:45:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21193 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt serbian.txt):
18:45:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 4 changes by glx
18:45:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: serbian - 4 changes by etran
18:46:56 <Terkhen> I tought that he was eating vegetables now
18:48:54 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
18:49:16 <TrueBrain> colours are like cookies
18:49:40 <planetmaker> colourful cookies
18:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> if you look at a cookie and you say "look at these colours"...
18:50:24 <Eddi|zuHause> then you have put too much psychoactives in it ;)
18:55:11 <Samu> I extracted openttd.exe with 7-zip
18:55:32 <Samu> there's a folder with 8 icons, why isn't the 8.ico being used? It looks bigger, better
18:56:08 <glx> windows version dependant IIRC
19:01:33 <Samu> just tested using that icon, looks bad
19:01:42 <Samu> the other is better, dunno why
19:02:10 <Samu> windows is weird, it looks bad as a shortcut, it looks fine as an icon
19:22:11 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
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19:29:53 <Zuu> Hello, just out of random is "Hallo pizza" a resturant kind of pizza place or just a place from where you can order pizza to your home?
19:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> never heard of it.
19:32:29 <Zuu> I think I'll wark there and check.
19:32:55 <Zuu> Apart from Lidl, is there any other food shops one can search for in a random German city?
19:33:12 <Progman> maybe even "Schlecker"
19:34:51 <Zuu> hmm, none of them are in a walkable distance from my hotel, so I hope the pizza place has tables as I don't want to bring a pizza to through the hotel lobby :-)
19:35:31 <Progman> you want just eat something?
19:36:02 <Progman> look for "Pommesbude" ;)
19:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> "Schlecker" is a drug store, not a supermarket/food thing
19:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: the more urban your area is, the more likely it has a "Dönerbude" ;)
19:39:22 <planetmaker> char *buff = CallocT<char>(strlen(str));
19:39:24 <planetmaker> strecpy(buff, str, lastof(buff));
19:39:25 <planetmaker> gives me sometimes a "dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer"
19:39:27 <planetmaker> Obviously I miss something... what might that be?
19:39:45 <Rubidium> lastof doesn't work for pointers
19:39:47 <Zuu> Eddi: yea nothing can beat some döner kebab :-)
19:41:18 <Rubidium> well, maybe not but then it needs to be at like the top floor of a high building so you get a nice view
19:48:57 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: unicode characters being multiple char?
19:49:13 <planetmaker> they certainly are.
19:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but strlen counts them as 1?
19:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause> (maybe it doesn't and i'm wrong)
19:50:06 <planetmaker> I don't think so: dbg: [freetype] String is 旅 with length
19:50:07 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: strlen counts bytes
19:50:31 <Rubidium> subsequent non-zero bytes to be exact
19:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's missing the closing 0 byte?
19:51:02 <Rubidium> utf-8 encoding makes pretty sure not to have any character that is encoded with a 0, except '\0'
19:52:00 <Rubidium> but, as I said almost 15 minutes ago: lastof does not work on pointers; it works on arrays as it basically does foes + sizeof(foes)
19:52:41 <Rubidium> but sizeof(pointer) is usually something like 4 or 8, not the strlen amount
19:53:18 <Rubidium> even then, strlen counts the number of bytes needed excluding the terminating '\0' whereas strecpy writes the '\0'
19:53:40 <Rubidium> but if you want to close a string you're better off with strdup
19:55:21 <__ln__> 21:32 < Zuu> Apart from Lidl, is there any other food shops one can search for in a random German city? <-- Edeka
19:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the biggest chain is Aldi. you might also commonly find Edeka, Netto, Penny, Norma and others
19:57:48 <glx> I always [mc]alloc(strlen() +1)
19:58:14 <glx> to be sure there's room for \0 :)
20:00:11 * SpComb takes away planetmaker's C++ compiler
20:00:45 <__ln__> on a trip to germany once, one guy self-confidently said "this shop sells cheap drinks" and walked into a Sparkasse.
20:01:06 * Rubidium points planetmaker to virtualbox so he can play again without having to compile for himself
20:01:36 <AveiMil> With the new NML nightly, this no longer gives compile error:
20:01:41 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, CoalMine, 0) { property { spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_BUILT_ON_WATER); } }
20:01:55 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> but, as I said almost 15 minutes ago: lastof does not work on pointers; it works on arrays as it basically does foes + sizeof(foes) <-- sure it doesn't mean sizeof(*foes)?
20:01:56 <AveiMil> BUT, should that not mean that CoalMine's are now built on water ingame?
20:02:03 <AveiMil> Because that's not what I'm seeing :(
20:02:09 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: that would be 1 byte
20:02:31 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: and sizeof an array[] type is bigger than a pointer
20:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i should not think about this...
20:03:21 <SpComb> orwell, not the same as
20:03:37 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: #define lastof(x) (&x[lengthof(x) - 1])
20:03:44 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: #define lengthof(x) (sizeof(x) / sizeof(x[0]))
20:06:48 <Yexo> AveiMil: yes, you also need to set the land shape flags for the industry tiles
20:07:22 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, CoalMine, 00) { property { spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960); } }
20:07:28 <AveiMil> that does nothing either :(
20:07:49 <AveiMil> Coal Mines show up before 1960 in game
20:07:57 <Yexo> you need to set the substitute property before any other property
20:08:17 <Yexo> the actual id doesn't matter (so you could use as well item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, CoalMine) {....
20:08:22 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:08:37 <AveiMil> I don't understand, substitute property?
20:08:43 <Yexo> and you probably want to set 'override' too
20:09:07 <Yexo> file:///D:/cygwin-home/openttd/nml/docs/industries.html#industries-property <- see "substitute" in the property column
20:10:10 <AveiMil> yeah, reading that already but not quite understanding how it relates to a practical example
20:10:56 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, CoalMine) { property { substitute: 0 ;spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960); } }
20:11:05 <Yexo> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, CoalMine) { property { substitute: 0; override: 0; spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960); } }
20:11:44 <Yexo> but if you don't use "override" also you'll get both the default coal mines and your modified coal mines
20:12:19 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, CoalMine) { property { substitute: 0; override: 0; spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960); } }
20:12:28 <AveiMil> Tested that in-game now, coal mines are still there at 1950
20:12:39 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... btw... i just stumbled over my solution for the timestamp problem earlier...
20:12:48 <Ammler> AveiMil: you made a new map?
20:13:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it seems to be a "double" [float] value, in days since 31.12.1899
20:13:11 <AveiMil> I'll try exiting the game entierly
20:13:14 <Yexo> could you maybe try setting the name of the industry?
20:14:27 <Ammler> maybe you should paste the whole nml
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20:15:01 <AveiMil> name: (hiiii);, name: hiiii; and name: "hiiii";
20:15:05 <AveiMil> all of those give nmlc errors
20:15:23 <Yexo> name: string(STR_SOME_STRING); <- where STR_SOME_STRING should be in your language file
20:16:16 <AveiMil> does it have to be in the language file?
20:17:49 <AveiMil> ok, in my default.lng
20:17:50 <AveiMil> STR_TEST_NAME :CoalAveiMil
20:17:57 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, CoalMine) { property { substitute: 0; override: 0; spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960); name: (STR_TEST_NAME); } }
20:18:10 <AveiMil> nmlc: "input", line 420: Unknown identifier 'STR_TEST_NAME'
20:18:25 <Yexo> it should be "string(STR_TEST_NAME)", not "(STR_TEST_NAME)"
20:19:03 <Zuu> As for information Hallo Pizza didn't have a single table - so there they missed a customer. :-p
20:19:43 <AveiMil> alrigth, well that works
20:19:52 <AveiMil> the name is now reflected ingame
20:20:25 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
20:20:39 * Zuu wonders why no places in Germany seem to take cards as payment - only cash
20:21:06 <Chris_Booth> Zuu when I went to germany and they did take card you had to sign for it
20:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the shop owner must pay for the card-readers, bank-communication-connection etc.
20:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so for small shops it might not be viable
20:21:26 <AveiMil> How do I work around it?
20:21:45 <Zuu> yea, as in North america - there you had to sign in every shop, but at least they (mostly) accepted cards.
20:21:58 <glx> __ln__: that's why there's a 500€ banknote
20:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: and if they take cards, they probably don't take credit cards, only EC/Maestro cards...
20:22:42 <__ln__> Zuu: there are places in the US where you don't need either signature nor a pin.
20:23:27 <__ln__> I was actually surprised that I was able to pay with a Visa in Edeka back then in the summer.
20:23:34 <Zuu> In Sweden the shops also got to pay for the machines and a fee for every transfer, yet it is sometimes even seen as bad or not the way to do if you pay by cash.
20:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause> historically, germans had a hard time accepting money bills. cheques _never_ caught on...
20:24:38 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: edeka is one of the more expensive ones, they usually accept such stuff ;)
20:24:58 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, CoalMine) { property { substitute: 0; override: 0; spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_PLANT_FIELDS_WHEN_BUILT); name: string(STR_TEST_NAME); } }
20:25:06 <AveiMil> that seems to work though, now every coal mine is surrounded by farms
20:25:29 <Yexo> the "built only after 1960" flag is not honored during map generation
20:25:46 <Yexo> not sure if that's a bug in the openttd code or in the nfo/nml documentation
20:25:53 <andythenorth> is the default oil rig special cased?
20:26:49 <planetmaker> it has a heliport, a ship dock and can only appear after 1960(? 1970(?)
20:27:07 <AveiMil> so that flag can't work with oil wells then
20:27:45 <Yexo> planetmaker: it'll only appear after 1960, that is the whole point of IND_FLAG_BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960 (which is set for the default oil rig)
20:27:55 <Yexo> the problem is that that flag is not honored during map generation
20:28:07 <planetmaker> I didn't know _that_
20:28:10 <Yexo> I seem to remember that oil rigs are never constructed during map generation, I might be wrong there though
20:28:19 <AveiMil> Yexo, I think that's correct.
20:29:19 <Chris_Booth> I have never thought about oil rigs appearing after map gen
20:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: but the "not created during map generation" is from the probability, not the flag?
20:29:32 <Chris_Booth> but now I come to think of it makes sence
20:29:37 <AveiMil> Well, not important, becasue that's not really waht I'm trying to do, I just watned to test with that because that was an obvious flag I could see if it was working or not
20:30:04 <AveiMil> but -> IND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE The industry cannot increase its production on the temperate climate (oil wells), I'm confused about this flag, because when I start a new game (default Ottd) and fast forward, I see Oil Well production go up and down
20:30:11 <AveiMil> Dosen't the flag say it should not?
20:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: you shouldn't see "production doubled" messages
20:30:45 <Chris_Booth> I know oil wells die after 1970
20:30:50 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: but the displayed monthly production may vary
20:31:04 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: depending on if there were 8 or 9 production callbacks that month
20:31:16 <Chris_Booth> they don't any more?
20:31:21 <Yexo> they just never increase production, only decrease, so eventually they'll die out
20:31:26 <Chris_Booth> thought they did in temperate
20:31:31 <Yexo> and after 1950 no new oil wells will appear
20:31:35 <AveiMil> Yexo, that's not what I am seeing.
20:31:45 <AveiMil> I fast forward a game at 1950 and production goes up and down every month.
20:32:06 <Yexo> bye how much exactly? if it's between 117,000 and 126,000 litres that's not really going up
20:32:37 <AveiMil> what is 'exactly' going up? hehe
20:32:59 <Yexo> the default industries produce goods either 7 or 8 times a month
20:33:03 <andythenorth> AveiMil: if it's bouncing around the same figures, it's because of month length
20:33:18 <AveiMil> ah, but ultimately the trend for Oil Wells is downwards
20:34:08 <Yexo> to be precise: every 2.5 days, so depending on month length and when the first production is (0.5 days after the month started or 2 days after it started) you get a slight variation between the months
20:35:00 <AveiMil> ok that explains that
20:37:14 <Yexo> if you want your coalmine example from above to work you should also set prob_random to 0
20:37:25 <Yexo> that way no coalmines are constructed during map generation
20:37:37 <Yexo> thanks for the hint Eddi|zuHause :)
20:37:58 <AveiMil> ah, thanks, but don't want to do that :)
20:38:07 <AveiMil> just trying to figure out how it all works
20:38:13 <frosch123> afaik the not-before-1960 flag does not affect manual construction either :)
20:39:23 <AveiMil> I just want OIl Rigs to behave as Oil Wells, to run dry
20:39:28 <AveiMil> so IND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE should take care of that
20:39:35 <frosch123> but in plain ttd you could not build oilrigs in game anyway :)
20:39:37 <AveiMil> I'm testing it on coal mines now with fast foward
20:40:47 <Yexo> don't forget that when you use spec_flags you overwrite all previous flags, also the default ones
20:41:21 <AveiMil> yeah, which is why I tried so desperatly to find a good method of knowing all the default values earlier
20:41:23 <Yexo> so you should set BUILT_ON_WATER, AI_CREATES_AIR_AND_SHIP_ROUTES and BUILT_ONLY_AFTER_1960 yourself
20:42:01 <Yexo> src/table/build_industry.h :)
20:42:30 <AveiMil> not sureIND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE is working. I monitored 3 coal mines from 1950, it's 1973 now, 2 of them are dead, one remains, but that could have happened anyway?
20:42:51 <AveiMil> I'll run a new test with out that flag and see if the same occurs
20:43:09 <frosch123> did you set the "override" property?
20:43:35 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, CoalMine) { property { substitute: 0; override: 0; spec_flags: bitmask(IND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE); name: string(STR_TEST_NAME); } }
20:44:28 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: you really should watch the "doubles production" messages...
20:44:29 <Yexo> instead of "substitute: 0;" you could also write "substitute: INDUSTRYTYPE_COAL_MINE;"
20:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> damn... i hate it when >30% of my usual desk space is occupide by {gray,black}-furry-thing-that-makes-miau
20:45:56 <AveiMil> trying to figure out if the coal mines are running dry and dying because of the IND_FLAG_NO_PRODUCTION_INCREASE flag
20:46:02 <AveiMil> or if it's the production change mecahnics
20:46:38 <AveiMil> Eddi|zuHause, if there are no doubles production messages it's safe to assume the flag is working, is that what you mean?
20:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: yes. because that's the only thing that is affected by the flag.
20:47:36 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: I suspect said furry thing hates it when one of its beds is occupied by computer.
20:48:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21194 /trunk/config.lib: -Add: Configure option for compiling OpenTTD as a console application under MinGW.
20:53:58 <AveiMil> Well the flag definetly appears to be working :)
20:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i don't have such a device :p
21:33:18 <__ln__> they have a very good cell phone coverage
21:39:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21195 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Fix [FS#4230] (r21135): in some corner cases the savegame conversion didn't do the right thing
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21:58:06 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen
22:14:24 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
22:31:17 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
22:41:14 <luki-> hi; anyone know any grfs with new, faaaaster trains? :D
22:41:27 <luki-> in year 2653 maglevs are too slow ;]
22:44:44 <Eddi|zuHause> try the logic train ;)
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22:57:27 <Samu> question, since I couldn't have an answer in #tycoon
22:57:42 <Samu> how many formats is/was TTD shipped?
22:57:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21196 /trunk/config.lib: -Change: [OSX] Allow to select the build targets for universal builds
22:58:07 <Samu> or, if there was a TTD floppy version shipped
22:58:34 <Samu> I know there is a TTD PC CD-ROM for DOS, and another for Windows 95
22:58:46 <Samu> I'm wondering if there was a TTD floppy version
23:00:03 <luki-> i can't see that train xD
23:01:21 <Ammler> Samu: according to the basesets, 3 different
23:01:57 <planetmaker> and a japanese for some console
23:02:57 <luki-> fucking awesome, thanks Eddi|zuHause ;D
23:06:06 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: you wanted me to tell you if i solved the date problem? it seems to be an excel-style date, double precision float denoting the date as days since 1899-12-31, with interpreting 1900 as leap year bug
23:06:55 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: double precision float for dates? ugh
23:07:24 <planetmaker> SmatZ: cannot be detailed enough :-)
23:07:35 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: has the advantage of denoting time as fractional date...
23:07:36 <planetmaker> all length units depend on exact measurement of time
23:08:50 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: if it is a counter, I wonder how much does rounding affect the results
23:09:03 <Rubidium> planetmaker: don't all units depend on exact measurement of time?
23:09:11 <SmatZ> it will stop counting once 1 unit is smaller than the resolution :)
23:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: it doesn't really count, i presume...
23:09:27 <planetmaker> Rubidium: not really.
23:09:47 <planetmaker> temperature doesn't require time really.
23:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if anyone cares: conversion line: datetime.datetime(*xlrd.xldate_as_tuple(struct.unpack("<d",file.read(8))[0],0))
23:10:36 <planetmaker> not sure about force - which is the basis for measuring the Ampère
23:11:00 <Rubidium> planetmaker: you can measure weight in Hz, which is time related
23:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> from what i gathered from the documentation of xldate*-functions, dates seem to be limited up to year 10000. not sure what the relevance of that number is
23:11:26 <planetmaker> Rubidium: but temperature?
23:12:16 <Rubidium> given that temperature is a form of energy given to matter
23:12:52 <Rubidium> and "One kilogram at rest has an equivalent energy approximately equal to the energy of photons whose frequencies sum to this value"
23:12:54 <planetmaker> s, K, A, cd, kg, mol and m
23:13:20 <Rubidium> so you should be able to convert the temperature form of energy to Hz :)
23:13:28 <planetmaker> but the metre is defined as the length which light travels in a certain time span
23:13:41 <planetmaker> that's the _base_ definition of metre
23:13:59 <planetmaker> while mass is fundamentally defined by the kilogramme stored somewhere in Paris
23:14:07 <planetmaker> which is... 'interesting'
23:14:46 <Rubidium> planetmaker: thought kg was some average of several blobs of matter
23:15:11 <planetmaker> nope. There's one kilogramme which was produced around the time of the French revolution. and that's it ever since.
23:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "sum of frequencies" sounds like a fourier transformation...
23:15:17 <Rubidium> planetmaker: light travelling in a vacuum :)
23:16:04 <planetmaker> and mol is also a bit difficult to relate to time. Unless you maybe use an atom laser and count the atoms assuming constant 'brightness'
23:16:16 <planetmaker> which is certainly not really practical ;-)
23:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> s, K, A, cd, kg, mol and m <-- all useless... just define c=h=1, and most of those collapse into one unit :p
23:17:01 <planetmaker> theoretically that's nice. supposedly
23:20:33 <planetmaker> [00:14] <Rubidium> planetmaker: thought kg was some average of several blobs of matter <-- that's actually the plan for the future.
23:20:44 <planetmaker> But counting atoms is not accurate enough so far
23:21:16 <Samu> well, looks like I have the 3
23:21:52 <Samu> just have to find TTD DOS Floppy install discs somewhere
23:24:39 <Samu> I got tt install discs in english if you want them
23:24:52 <Samu> it isn't in any link you provide
23:25:26 <planetmaker> next you're advertising here download links for copyright protected material?
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23:27:12 <xiong> planetmaker, Not sure what you're looking at but without following the link, I'll guess you refer to the -1 trains. I have *not* been able to reproduce, which is at least 67% of the reason I haven't filed a bug report. Sorry.
23:28:16 <planetmaker> hm, ok. Which version was it?
23:28:45 <xiong> It's not quite clear to me exactly what I did or even just what I intended to do. In general, I wanted to change engines on a train without changing its number.
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23:29:11 <Rubidium> how dare he... mention the thread that shall not be mentioned here, or in the OpenTTD subforum
23:29:55 <xiong> Did I not say, in the forum post? /me looks
23:30:27 <Ammler> Samu should learn that not the whole tt-forums is OpenTTD :-)
23:30:27 <planetmaker> xiong: which OpenTTD version was it?
23:30:55 <planetmaker> Samu: so whose fault is it, if _you_ talk about something and post and paste links here?
23:31:26 <planetmaker> I suggest to you to stop pasting links here with downloads to illegal material immediately
23:31:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: i presume the content of the (DOS) floppy disks is the same as the (DOS) cd-rom
23:32:22 <xiong> *DONOTLOOKHERE*->>(HTTP://GOATSE)
23:32:24 <Xaroth> Samu: the fact somebody else did something doesn't give the implicit right for you to also do it.
23:33:19 <xiong> Ah. planetmaker, I did not write that bug report. I did write a forum post. Let me look for it.
23:36:16 <Samu> I thought orudge was your forum admin
23:36:59 <Samu> who admins openttd forum?
23:37:53 <Rubidium> orudge is to the openttd forum as Obama is to Hawaii
23:38:37 <xiong> There is some terrible interaction between tt-forums.net and Google.
23:38:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean "not born there"? :pü
23:38:44 <Rubidium> so when Obama allows something in say Washington, it doesn't mean it applies to Hawaii as well
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23:39:31 <Ammler> Samu: I know a police man, who does like to drive too fast on his private time.
23:40:07 <Samu> what happens if I report orudge topic?
23:40:25 <Rubidium> and given this analogy, the thread you linked can be seen as Guantanamo Bay
23:40:40 <planetmaker> :-D Interesting analogy
23:41:08 <xiong> I don't see an index of my posts to forum. Googling fails because it hits every time the board thought I was online at the time Google indexed the thread page.
23:41:37 <Rubidium> he wants to get rid of it, but nothing else wants to take it. And letting them all free all over the forum isn't something that's pleasant either
23:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i have reproduced the group-shuffling-issue in fairly-recent trunk
23:42:09 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: then please shed some light on it :-)
23:42:12 <Rubidium> good, then it's time for me to go to bed!
23:42:19 <planetmaker> same here actually :-)
23:42:29 * planetmaker waves good night to the round
23:42:30 <xiong> Hm. Now I see a tiny 'Your Posts' link but it doesn't seem to be inclusive.
23:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: put a multi-headed train in the group
23:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: then move the front engine away
23:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause> BAM! you have two trains in the group, but the counter is not updated
23:43:13 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't work the same if you move the second engine
23:44:22 <xiong> planetmaker, Sorry; I think I have to give up on this. I do have a savegame from the less-than-none-trains game but it's after the fact, of course; and this happened two weeks ago; I can't tell you what I was running then.
23:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> well... if xiong were able to read my lines...
23:46:54 <Samu> did you know that google isn't that big in russia?
23:47:11 <planetmaker> indeed. Thank you eddi
23:47:34 <Samu> only 30% something use google search engine in Russia
23:47:35 <xiong> I can't even swear I posted to forum on it. I distinctly remember doing so, and posting at some length, and including many details, such as, yes, the openttd version, the NARS version, etc. But at my age, I often distinctly remember things that I decided, at the last minute, not to do. Posting a report of an unreproducable bug may well have been one of these.
23:50:17 <planetmaker> xiong: Eddi already explained it, but thanks
23:50:44 <xiong> Explained what? My brain? Or the ghost train?
23:50:47 <Samu> testing TTD game is in year 1990, it was supposed to be further by now, but my mom turned dosbox off
23:51:23 <planetmaker> the group number update issue and how to reproduce it
23:51:44 <planetmaker> don't worry to dig up any posting anymore. I could reproduce it with his help :-)
23:52:17 <planetmaker> and now really good night, folks
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