IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-11-13
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00:11:22 <Samu> hehe, wrightAI is winning
00:22:31 <Samu> took 10 years for NoCAB to start building something
00:25:09 <Samu> RoadRunner and CluelessPlus still have nothing
00:30:31 <Samu> wow, nocab really knows how to profit
00:32:17 <Samu> SimpleAI starts immediately, cool
00:34:50 <Samu> Roadrunner: Computing triangulation over 1242 targets...
00:35:07 <Samu> is that a lot for the CPU?
00:35:20 <Samu> I don't know this type of language
00:41:42 <Samu> already reported the other day
00:42:04 <Samu> it's ranked 1 anyway, let's see how long it stays there
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01:00:36 <Samu> I don't understand what RoadRunner is doing
01:02:22 <Samu> debug window says it's building several roads
01:11:30 <Samu> I think the AI is trying to connect 9 Coal mines using the same road
01:12:02 <Samu> trying a network thing based on 9 coal mines
01:12:16 <Samu> it's been 11 years and no trucks yet
01:21:42 <Samu> build a fleet of 14 trucks
01:21:54 <Samu> RoadRunner finally started
01:25:03 <supermop> i have a question about some .nfo
01:25:51 <supermop> don't know if anyone here has been reading my thread
01:26:03 <supermop> where i am showing how much of an idiot i am
01:26:52 <supermop> basically I'd like to know right now if i can have multiple varaction 02s for one station id
01:27:28 <supermop> well not 'right now'
01:27:45 <supermop> but thats what i am focusing on at the moment
01:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you haven't properly understood my description of the tree structure yet
01:35:26 <supermop> thats an understatement
01:35:38 <supermop> im looking at your diagram now
01:37:02 <supermop> so if action 3 says to use set id 03, and varaaction 2 says that 03 consists of either 01 or 02
01:37:41 <supermop> and then two separate action 2s define what goes into sets 01 or 02
01:38:36 <supermop> is it possible for some ranges to use both 01 and 02 at the same time?
01:44:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i think not, but you can make a 04 consisting of (duplicated) sprites from both
01:44:25 <Samu> wow, i've just been asked twice if I wanted to try out the same vehicle
01:44:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: happens when you mess with newgrfs inbetween
01:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: if you hit "apply" in the newgrf setting, the introduction dates are re-randomized
01:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so if the new introduction date lies in the future, then you can get the same offer again
01:46:46 <Samu> I didn't use a newgrf for this game
01:48:38 <Ammler> orudge: every thread which is locked because of stupidities could as could also be removed like spam. Else it shouldn't be closed.
01:49:07 <Eddi|zuHause> an action 2 with the id 04
01:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> or any other id.
01:50:02 <supermop> so in that cas, can their be multiple different varaction 2s?
01:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> as many as you like
01:50:40 <supermop> maybe its easier for me to explain what i am trying to do
01:51:02 <supermop> so at least i dontt sound like a ttal idiot
01:51:16 <supermop> ahhh except i cannot type
01:51:32 <supermop> i am eating a cookie as i type...
01:51:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen some total idiots in my time, you're definitely not one of those ;)
01:52:33 <supermop> basically i want a tile with 4 sprites on it
01:52:57 <supermop> and i want to turn them on or off based on varaction 2 results
01:53:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you should decode some other GRFs, and try to understand how they did it.
01:54:12 <supermop> when i first started mlss
01:54:17 <Eddi|zuHause> like in newstats.grf it has some tiles that show fences
01:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on which neighbouring tiles are stations or non-stations
01:54:57 <supermop> yeah i just want to make simple fences that apear on the edge if that edge is the boundary of the station
01:55:14 <supermop> i havent seen that grf on bananas
01:55:43 <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately, MB has been reluctant to upload any of his grfs there...
01:56:01 <supermop> i also dont want to rip anyone off
01:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it's buried deep in the graphics forum, on ttdpatch.net or in the coop-grf-pack.
01:57:25 <supermop> i had so much trouble understanding japanese stations without comments
01:57:30 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a difference between copying someone's work, and trying to learn how to do it from someones work.
01:57:38 <supermop> but i feel like i need to figure this out
01:58:11 <supermop> i mean if some just coded my set for me, that would be great. but its not going to happen
01:58:27 <supermop> and i want to draw more complicated sets later
01:58:39 <supermop> so i need to learn alot of stuff
02:00:06 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are maybe a handful of guys who have coded station sets so far. i'm sure if you make your question specific enough, they're more than willing to help
02:01:44 <supermop> do you think stations are harder than railtypes, or the other way aound?
02:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i have the feeling stations are one of the most complicated
02:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> railtypes have almost no useful action 2 variables, so there's not much complexity to be expected there
02:18:12 <supermop> just so i am clear on your tree diagram
02:19:09 <supermop> action 3 says to use a set which is defined by varaction 2, and varaction 2 uses sets from regular action 2s?
02:19:39 <supermop> and the regular action 2s use sprites from an action 1
02:19:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, varaction 2 may use other varaction 2 as well
02:20:34 <Eddi|zuHause> like branches of a tree, you may have further subbranches
02:20:50 <supermop> all all of these set ids start from 00, and I can start over at 00 for the next tile?
02:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you can reuse an ID if you know you don't have to reference the old action 2 anymore
02:25:32 <supermop> and where do i define which sprites go into each action 2
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02:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> in the action 1, i suppose... but i really don't know
02:31:43 <supermop> yeah, this is where i am gettin stuck
02:32:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have one big action 1, and then multiple (non-var) action 2 that pick spritesets from this action 1
02:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> then you can have any number of varaction2 that pick between the previous action 2
02:33:41 <supermop> i thought only action 00 picks sprites in the action 1
02:33:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and then one action 3
02:34:10 <Eddi|zuHause> action 0 never picks any sprites
02:36:31 <supermop> but thats where you use the 0042D etc numbers and set up the bounding box...
02:36:57 <supermop> i must have a fundamental misunderstanding here
02:37:39 <supermop> its amazing my earlier grf worked at all
04:06:40 <xiong> I have decided that an early goal is to jail the towns; by which I mean to ring them with company reserved land and track. Previously, I figured on building bus stops early and running a little local service to stimulate towns. Then, I thought no, I don't actually want the towns to grow, except under my direction.
04:07:26 <Chrill> xiong: prevent towns from building roads. That way, there will be no room for expansion unless you construct the roads yourself
04:07:47 <Chrill> the whole ring business is way more complicated when there is a setting that prevents towns from expanding :)
04:08:12 <xiong> But I've run into local authorities who don't care for neglect and later arrogant invasions of big stations and big plans. So, now I've gone back to the local service, but on a scale calculated to please local authority, not stim the people.
04:09:00 <xiong> Chrill, I know about the setting but to me, anyway, it seems underhanded -- no challenge at all, no contest. Besides, towns sometimes do interesting things, that I might not have thought of alone.
04:09:57 <xiong> Type in point being strange bridges. Some are just dumb, others amusing. One town escaped jail with a long bridge. I gave it some new land but re-established the jail around it.
04:11:07 <xiong> I did turn off the ability of towns to build grade crossings across my tracks. That doesn't seem fair to the company. Although, in reality, such things are extremely contentious issues.
04:12:05 <xiong> I'm starting to think of towns as liabilities, though, rather than assets. Pax service does make early money but later, towns are just in the way, even if they're small.
04:12:41 <xiong> Chrill, I certainly do see the attraction of your approach.
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05:33:50 <xiong> What is the status of the FIRS Sugar Refinery? I see a big green block, which I interpret as missing graphics. Is someone working on this? Would help be appreciated?
05:34:59 <xiong> Um, besides graphics skills, I've lived near a sugar refinery. I wouldn't work from memory but you might say it gives me a head start.
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05:56:47 <ccfreak2k> I would imagine it having a lot of pipes and a few silos and tanks.,
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09:02:20 <SmatZ> what does "mornink" mean?
09:04:12 <orudge> Ammler: well, it isn't spam as such, it's just stupid, and can in theory act as a deterrent to other people who might ask the same question
09:08:20 <planetmaker> SmatZ: it's a joke which evolved ;-)
09:09:00 <planetmaker> morning-mornink. and 'worse' evening-evenink-odd ink :-P
09:29:42 * Terkhen prefers uniform trains
09:30:00 <Alberth> I like the mixed wagons, but I can imagine some people like to have neatly sorted wagons.
09:30:07 <Rubidium> or, in Haskell speak: _
09:30:23 <Rubidium> Alberth: how realistic are neatly sorted wagons?
09:30:23 <Terkhen> yes, I wouldn't mind having them mixed either
09:31:02 <Terkhen> but I prefer to know what is a train carrying at a glance
09:31:04 <Alberth> Rubidium: ask Terkhen, I don't need them
09:31:19 <Terkhen> they are probably not realistic at all
09:31:49 <Rubidium> even the ICs have different cars/liveries
09:32:28 <Rubidium> like, who in his right mind puts a yellow/black engine in front of white/red wagons? Why not use a red one like the Germans do
09:32:58 <Alberth> haha, 'random' order in the colours of the country :p
09:33:13 <Rubidium> if you're lucky they even "mix" 3 types of passenger EMUs into one train
09:34:01 <Alberth> now that's service, the passengers can choose the one they like best :)
09:35:23 * Rubidium choses the one with WIFI :)
09:35:46 <planetmaker> DB doesn't have that really...
09:36:03 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but they have ovens in some trains
09:36:31 <Rubidium> getting cooked in the ICE last summer?
09:45:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21156 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Introduce EconomyIsInRecession().
09:56:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21157 /trunk/src/ (34 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: remove information about the text direction out of the language "list"
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10:10:06 * andythenorth wonders what to code
10:11:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21158 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Assert boundary inside the loop rather than afterwards.
10:12:57 <Alberth> all goodies of FIRS 0.5.4, or even 0.6.0.
10:15:19 <Alberth> layout stuff should be fine, but better hold balancing. I am in the process of merging the industry thingie into trunk
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10:17:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21159 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: AdvertiseIndustryOpening() also works with a const pointer.
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10:48:46 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 13 hours, 19 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <frosch123> the coolness of the trains matter or so
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11:11:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21160 /trunk/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: reuse the strgen LanguageHeader to store some metadata about a language, and keep the language metadata in memory instead of loading it several times from disk
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11:26:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21161 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: make the currently used language easier accessible
11:29:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21162 /trunk/src/ (strings.cpp table/settings.h): -Codechange: move the config "field" for the language file out of dynlang
11:38:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21163 /trunk/src/ (language.h settings_gui.cpp strings.cpp strings_func.h): -Codechange: pass a LanguageMetadata struct instead of its index to ReadLanguagePack, and simplify one of its callers
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12:09:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21164 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: replace the hardcoded array of language metadata with a list
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12:37:45 <Ammler> planetmaker: you forgot to update the topic as you announced the RC1 ;-)
12:38:28 <planetmaker> don't know, is it the topic how it should be? :-)
12:39:11 <Ammler> at least I already thought the stable is now out but had to learn that it would be 1.0.5 :-P
12:50:00 <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.0.4, 1.0.5-RC1
12:50:01 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.0.4, 1.0.5-RC1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | English only"
12:54:22 <Ammler> planetmaker: they host the package self?
12:55:13 <planetmaker> Yexo removed those. They had an integrated download: openttd + base sets + newgrfs
12:55:18 <planetmaker> I didn't save a link
12:56:54 <Ammler> I am quite sure, we never allowed someone to redistribute, as we wouldn't be allowed to give such permission anyway :-)
12:59:30 <Ammler> oh, you already reported it that way :-P
12:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> has anyone looked into whether the grf-pack should be downloadable via the installer, like ogfx?
13:00:13 <Ammler> I guess, it can't be officially supported...
13:00:27 <Ammler> it is quite greyish areay
13:01:09 <Ammler> but we have autodonwload permission for around 90% of the grfs
13:01:44 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: who cares about the grf-pack? it only contains proprietary crap :p
13:02:29 <Ammler> also some older versions of bananas grfs
13:03:10 <Ammler> davis: looks like the cz tunnels?
13:03:30 <frosch123> looks like a screenshot from eddi
13:03:37 <davis> thought so too , but it seems that those are only downloadable in the cz railset.
13:03:46 <davis> Isa's screenshots actually.
13:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't usually use tunnel grfs
13:04:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but those should be the czech tunnels
13:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a grf containing the tunnels only
13:04:54 <davis> "0 - CSD rails (default)
13:05:04 <davis> as soon as I hit original rails , the tunnels switch back to default aswell
13:05:42 <Ammler> davis: you know Swedish Rails?
13:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> davis: the file i have is called "tunel002.grf"
13:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i would have spelled "tunnel" correctly ;)
13:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't remember where i downloaded it from
13:07:24 <Ammler> hmm, might be cz translation?
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13:19:17 <AveiMil> The time penatly for delivering goods, does it start at the moment your ship is 100% loaded and heading for the delivery dock, or does it start from the second the coal starts to load on to the ship?
13:19:40 <AveiMil> If the latter is true each "coal" on the ship is priced differently, since the coal loaded at 99->100% will have spent less time "travelling"
13:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> starts upon leaving the station
13:26:15 <AveiMil> there should be a "far end"/near end order for road veihcles
13:26:33 <AveiMil> my trucks starts to load as they etner the first loading station, instead of the last one
13:26:39 <AveiMil> blocking the trucks behind
13:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> trucks go to the far end, except if they are blocked by another truck
13:34:20 <AveiMil> yeah, the far end of THAT platform
13:34:29 <AveiMil> if you build 3 lorry stations after one another
13:34:40 <AveiMil> the first truck will stop at the far end of the 1st lorry station
13:35:46 <AveiMil> even those the 3 lorry station is one collected station
13:36:25 <Alberth> 2nd station not a busstop by accident?
13:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the truck stations must be directly adjacent
13:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise it doesn't work
13:37:25 <AveiMil> not a bus station by acceident, and they are one tile after the other
13:38:11 <AveiMil> |12||12||12| <- like that, 1 = near end, 2 = far end, truck arrives and stops to load at the first '2' spot
13:38:23 <AveiMil> when it should enter and stop at the third '2' spot
13:38:26 <Alberth> we need a picture and/or save game then
13:43:29 <AveiMil> nvm lol, I was behind tricked by the station sign, transperacy cleared it up
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13:48:10 <AveiMil> wait, maybe I was tricked into thinking I was tricked
13:48:33 <AveiMil> different tyles of lorry stations, but should it do that?
13:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not going to work
13:52:05 <AveiMil> it has to be the same "type" of lorry station?
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14:02:15 <AveiMil> lol, I've made a system where I'm shipping coal from all over the "world" with road vehicles and ships to a single power plant
14:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> what's so funny about that?
14:05:17 <AveiMil> anyway, how do you increase your rating with a town? advertising campaign dindt apper to work
14:06:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no, advertising increases rating at the station
14:06:40 <Alberth> statue building, planting trees, waiting, bribing (perhaps)
14:07:36 <AveiMil> I cleared a bunch of trees not too far away from the town
14:07:42 <AveiMil> I guess that's what brought my rating to appaling?
14:08:05 <Alberth> likely, citizens don't like you chopping their trees
14:08:32 <AveiMil> there was sooo many trees around though
14:09:07 <Alberth> oh 'waiting' does need stations with good rating
14:13:47 <AveiMil> is there any way to save the windows you have open?
14:13:52 <AveiMil> so that what you load there they are agian
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14:37:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21165 /trunk/src/ (language.h strgen/strgen.cpp strings.cpp): -Codechange: move the case/gender meta data into the language metadata struct as well
14:38:21 <Eddi|zuHause> are we getting a newgrf-case/gender feature?
14:39:04 <Rubidium> it's rather a bug fix
14:39:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's a really important feature...
14:39:48 <Rubidium> *no*, it's a bug *fix*
14:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> how can you fix something that was not meant to work before? :p
14:41:04 <Rubidium> because it might have actually worked in the past
14:41:50 <Rubidium> before OpenTTD's string subsystem got rewritten
14:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that was like in 0.3-ish? ;)
14:43:09 <Rubidium> * <0x9E> <NUM CASES> <CASE1> <LEN1> <STRING1> <CASE2> <LEN2> <STRING2> <CASE3> <LEN3> <STRING3> <STRINGDEFAULT>
14:43:14 <Rubidium> that's in the comments of OpenTTD
14:43:43 <Rubidium> but all stringcodes in OpenTTD are in the 0xE000 range
14:44:48 <peter1138> maybe i should've updated that lot...
14:45:30 <Rubidium> in 0.4: // 0x9D is used for the pseudo command SETCASE
14:45:56 <Rubidium> which are (somewhat) in the stringcodes' reserved ranges
14:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but... in 0.3-ish there wasn't really a lot of newgrf support...
14:47:35 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: actually, in the 0.4 branch cases would probably have worked
14:49:31 <Rubidium> as it seems cases didn't exist in 0.3
14:53:10 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by ludde :: r2597 /trunk (3 files in 2 dirs) (2005-07-17 10:18:23 UTC)
14:53:11 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Feature: [string system] Support cases.
14:53:12 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: - Cases are used to change a string, such as Coal Mine, depending on the surrounding context.
14:53:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: - Cases are defined like "STR_4802_COAL_MINE.ack :Coala Mina"
14:53:15 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: - All cases need to be listed on the top of the file like this "##case ack"
14:56:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by ludde :: r2594 /trunk (13 files in 3 dirs) (2005-07-16 20:58:04 UTC)
14:56:15 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Fix: [strgen] Misc updates to the string system.
14:56:16 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: - Renamed the plural command to "P" instead of "PLURAL". Now write something like this to append an s on plural: {P "" s}. (You can optionally still add an argument index to explicitly specifiy which number that's used)
14:56:17 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: - Removed the pluralized cargo strings from the string files. The new method is to use the plural specifier {P}
14:56:18 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: - Added support for genders. First add "##gender der das die" on top, then use {G=der} on a cargoname/industry to set the gender, and to switch between genders do something like {G neu neu neue} {STRING}
14:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> (except that he got the order of the german genders wrong)
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15:02:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21166 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Move MaybeNewIndustry() to IndustryBuildData::TryBuildNewIndustry().
15:05:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21167 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Use IndustryBuildData::builddata instead of a local variable.
15:07:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21168 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Feature: Use desired industry counts rather than relative probability to decide which industry to build.
15:09:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21169 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Feature: Do not build industries during economic recession.
15:13:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21170 /trunk/src/ (industry.h saveload/industry_sl.cpp): -Codechange: Store industry management data in the save game (some of it is used in the very near future).
15:15:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21171 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Change: Reset industry build data at game start or load.
15:18:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21172 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Feature: Better control over how many new industries are created during the game.
15:20:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21173 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Don't recompute target industry counts each time.
15:21:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21174 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Add: Use a progressive back-off mechanism to reduce wasting build attempts at unbuildable industries.
15:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure that is delicious ;)
15:22:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21175 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Add: Forced construction of missing industries.
15:22:38 <Alberth> #gotta catch them all
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15:39:44 <thomas001> hi, i am runnig openttd trunk. i remember in previous released openttd versions i could have orders like "if neccessary got to *this* depot", is this still possible in trunk? or am i simply remembering ctrl+click as wrong shortcut for this?
15:40:36 <planetmaker> that didn't change
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15:42:03 <thomas001> oh "maintain at ...." really means "maintain if needed at ... "?
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15:47:51 <Zuu> Is power sockets for laptops etc. generally available on the ICE trains?
15:50:27 <Rubidium> I know there are like 4 power sockets in quite ancient IC trains
15:51:30 <Zuu> Not like one for every seat then.
15:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> last time i travelled by IC, there was power only in some selected wagons, not all of them
15:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's like 10 years ago
15:53:12 <Ammler> as I went to the ottd party, every 2nd seat had one
15:53:47 <Zuu> Ammler: Good someone with better memory than I :-)
15:53:57 <Zuu> Possible because I didn't bring the laptop then.
15:54:02 <Samu> what's your AI name, I always forget
15:54:14 <Ammler> on swiss trains, you got around 2 plugs per wagon :-(
15:54:43 <Rubidium> wikipedia says that refurbished ICE1s have (some) power sockets
15:56:39 <Samu> I started a new game with 5000 towns 2048x2048 and 14 AIs doing very fast constructions.
15:56:58 <Zuu> Samu: CluelessPlus, PAXLink and TownCars
15:57:13 <Rubidium> interesting, ICE1: none, ICE2: a few seats, ICE3: almost all seats, refurbished ICE1: all seats have power sockets (again wikipedia)
15:57:38 <__ln__> finnish IC and IC2 trains nowadays have basically one socket per seat
15:57:52 <Samu> Zuu I have CluelessPlus on it, but it hasn't started yet
15:58:21 <SmatZ> people really didn't need power sockets in trains even 15 years ago...
15:59:23 <__ln__> but 10 years ago they would have needed
15:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> IR wagons had power outlets in the toilet, but it didn't have enough power to load the laptop i had back then...
15:59:46 <Zuu> yea, when I as a kid commuted by train to school there was only a few sockets in each train car which some people maybe used to charge their phone but not really a lot as the cell phones back then lasted for a week. :-)
16:01:09 <planetmaker> thomas001: if you use "send to depot for servicing" then it only uses the depot when required. If you just send it to a depot (w/o ctrl), then it always goes there
16:01:30 *** Priski is now known as Prisk1
16:01:33 <planetmaker> but having one depot order will prevent the train to visit any other depot
16:02:09 <Zuu> Samu: By default AIs start 365 days apart from each other with the first one starting 365 days after you (the numan player)
16:02:29 <Samu> I edited it to 1 day for each
16:02:53 <Zuu> If you get bored of wait you can always use the start_ai console command.
16:03:29 <Zuu> Be warned though, starting several instances of the same AI at the same time is usually not very good as they often go on the same connections.
16:03:32 <Samu> roadrunner: computing triangulation over 1298 targets, yesterday I made this question, what does this mean?
16:03:56 <Zuu> Samu: Do you konw what triangulation is?
16:05:46 <Samu> This article is about measurement by the use of triangles. For other uses, see Triangulation (disambiguation).
16:05:54 <Samu> I suppose im on the right arcticle
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16:14:55 <Zuu> My guess is that Roadrunner uses similar or the same ideas as PathZilla. Namely to find out a way to connect all towns using not too many connections but neither too few.
16:15:34 <Zuu> After having constructed this in-memory map, it builds the connections when there is a demand to transport something on the road link.
16:17:00 <Zuu> There awas once an air-only AI that contained a solver for the inverse travel salesmen problem to construct a set of orders visiting all airports in the order that creates the longest route.
16:18:05 <Zuu> No, another AI not on online content
16:18:26 <Zuu> The author stopt working on it even before NoAI got into trunk.
16:19:10 <Samu> computing shortest path tree
16:19:15 <Samu> computing minimum spanning tree
16:19:16 <Zuu> PAXLink contains an optimization algorithm to re-define its town-town connections to get the optimal pair selection. If enabled (it is off by default), it will run once a year to see if it can find any improvements.
16:19:50 <Samu> I didn't add PAXLink in this game, sorry
16:20:09 <Samu> I never managed to get it to profit, I thought it wouldn't be worthy
16:20:32 <Zuu> PAXLink isn't as good as many other AIs when it comes to survival on a tight budget.
16:21:06 <Samu> CluelessPlus has started
16:21:10 <Zuu> It contains some interesting and nice parts, but lacks on the economy department.
16:24:26 <glx> writeAI was very stupid :)
16:25:09 <Zuu> WrightAI is just a demo on how to write an AI.
16:25:31 <Samu> but only now it started building vehicles
16:25:57 <Samu> RoadRunner doesn't have vehicles yet
16:27:25 <Samu> the game started in 1975
16:27:36 <Samu> I thought there were helidepots already
16:29:12 <Samu> aha, it started, i see helicopters, it's quite fast
16:32:18 <Samu> 1 year has passed. AIAI is best company
16:36:25 <AveiMil> The AI's aren't really worth much in terms of competition, they're all really bad in that regard. All they do is clutter up the map. But then again that's expected of AI's, near impossible to make great AI's for such complex games. OpenTTD should allow for giving AI's an advantage over human players, like say everything is 50% the cost.
16:36:59 <AveiMil> It's the only reason Civilization 4 is really fun to play versus the computer, because at Immortal difficulty they get a lot of advantages over the human player.
16:38:09 <Samu> hmm, now that you talk about AI's advantage
16:38:31 <Samu> is it possible for AI's to misbehave?
16:38:50 <Eddi|zuHause> AIs can't cheat.
16:38:51 <Samu> sabotage human road vehicles
16:39:03 <SmatZ> AIs can do the same people can
16:39:04 <AveiMil> Probably possible, but doubt any of these AI can.
16:39:17 <Terkhen> AveiMil: IIRC not giving AIs any advantages was one of the design goals of the NoAI framework
16:39:19 <AveiMil> It's probably very hard to create an AI that do that.
16:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> not deliberately.
16:39:34 <Samu> or tell the town to reconstruct roads?
16:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they can do that.
16:39:51 <Samu> that sounds very interesting if it's possible
16:39:57 <nicfer> the old AI was able to terraform without costs
16:40:17 <nicfer> does NoAI allow the same?
16:41:09 <Samu> can the AI detect where the Human player is building and do those things that lamers do by blocking construction?
16:41:48 <SmatZ> people can't watch other players neither
16:42:05 <SmatZ> AI know nothing about other companies
16:42:07 <Samu> rondje can detect routes already done by other players
16:42:27 <SmatZ> that's something different
16:42:57 <Terkhen> AIs can inspect the map as much as they want, but they cannot detect when someone else is building
16:45:04 <Samu> can it check the map from 'memory'? I mean, can it memorize the map the way it was some days ago to detect any changes?
16:46:15 <Samu> then the AI would act based on those differences
16:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> theoretically yes, but only in limited ways.
16:46:39 <Samu> like blocking or doing something evil
16:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you just have not enough opcodes to constantly monitor differences in every part of the map
16:50:44 <Samu> I think I'm cancelling this game, it's way too slow for my computer
16:51:39 <Samu> takes about 10 seconds to advance 1 day in fast forward
16:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, tune down the number of opcodes AIs can do.
16:53:43 <Samu> it doesn't let me change
16:55:10 <Samu> it was using 300 MB memorry
16:56:43 <Samu> where do I change the date the game ends?
16:56:54 <Samu> can i edit 2051 to something else?
16:57:34 <Samu> why 2051 and not 2050 like the original?
16:58:49 <Rubidium> when in 2050 did the original end?
16:59:17 <Samu> the transition from 2049 to 2050
16:59:54 <Samu> I remember the news saying Top companies that reached 2050, not 2051
17:01:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the end date _never_ changed in the history of TTD. because it's hard-coded into the newspaper.
17:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> (in TTO it was 2030, though)
17:01:50 <SmatZ> the newspaper's date is 31.12.2050
17:02:05 <SmatZ> or I am very very wrong
17:05:00 <SmatZ> it might say "Top companies that reached 2050"
17:05:10 <SmatZ> but the game ends at the end of 2050
17:05:39 <Samu> ok, let me try using dosbox, it's been a while
17:13:17 <Samu> ok, in openttd it says Saturday, December 31st, 2050
17:13:46 <Samu> Top Companies who reached 2051 (Custom Level)
17:14:05 <Samu> so, there's a slight error
17:14:13 <SmatZ> actually, yes, it's saturday
17:15:10 <SmatZ> the news have date "THURSDAY december 31, 2050"
17:15:19 <SmatZ> but it should be saturday
17:15:26 <davis> is there any newgrf that allows to terraform lower than sealevel?
17:15:41 <SmatZ> Samu: 2051 makes more sense
17:15:52 <SmatZ> davis: can't be done by newgrf
17:16:38 <SmatZ> Samu: I know how openttd behaves :)
17:16:45 <Samu> starting the game at 1st january 2050
17:16:51 <SmatZ> you said you will test TTD
17:17:21 <Samu> Free ...... Saturday, December 31st, 2050
17:17:24 <SmatZ> maybe you have different base set
17:17:39 <SmatZ> ok, it's fixed there :)
17:18:08 <Samu> Unnamed acheves 'Businessman' status!
17:18:54 <Samu> looks like i gotta download dosbox
17:19:22 <SmatZ> I think you don't have to
17:19:29 <SmatZ> it's a waste of time imo :
17:21:45 <SmatZ> in TTD, you don't have fast forward
17:21:59 <SmatZ> so unless you have savegame from 2045 or later, it will take hours
17:22:17 <SmatZ> or you can try ttdpatch, but there the end date can be modified
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17:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i never noticed before... the calendar in kde4 displays holidays and other special days...
17:28:37 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: what does it say for 28-10?
17:28:45 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: how? all days look the same for me :( KDE4.4.5
17:29:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the 31st october has a green border, and says "Reformationstag, Winterzeit" when you hover over it
17:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> kde 4.5.3 i'm using
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17:30:42 <SmatZ> Country or region: Not set (Generic English)
17:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> in november, the 1st (Allerheiligen), 17th (Buß- und Bettag) and 28th (1. Advent) are marked
17:30:46 <SmatZ> maybe that's the problem
17:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> right click -> settings for "digital clock" -> Calendar -> Holidays -> Germany
17:32:47 <SmatZ> wow, it can even use other calendars
17:33:14 <planetmaker> sounds like everyone needs it. Or the pen-and-paper calenders won't be able to be used anymore :-P
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17:46:25 <davis> not entirely sure whether the second was ever released
17:47:32 *** fjb is now known as Guest781
17:48:31 <planetmaker> the dock is default graphics. Part of the harbour ISR
17:59:19 <Samu> im unable to run ttd in dosbox, don't know why
17:59:45 <Samu> ran out of stack buffers, wondering what that is
18:06:04 <AveiMil> ooookay, can I change the redicilous town rating drop that occurs if you remove ~6 tiles of trees via NewGRF?
18:08:26 <Alberth> you can reduce the number of trees in the game
18:08:50 <Alberth> in the world generation window
18:09:24 <Samu> aha, problem solved, I had the game installed on a usb drive
18:09:45 <AveiMil> man, that's so annoying
18:10:07 <AveiMil> there's tree's EVERYWHERE, so i build a road straight through it and town rating turns to appalling
18:10:10 <AveiMil> and I can't build a station
18:10:21 <Alberth> build the station first :)
18:10:37 <AveiMil> but should raelly be fixed
18:10:54 <Alberth> why, it is so nicely realistic
18:11:16 <AveiMil> it's not realistic and even if it was, that's a horrible argument
18:11:43 <Samu> ok, got TTD running in DosBox, it clearly says top companies who reached 2050
18:11:49 <Samu> not sure about how the game actually ends
18:12:15 <Alberth> iirc, you get a high score screen at 2050, then you can continue playing
18:13:14 <Alberth> AveiMil: there is also an advanced setting for permissiveness of the city counsil, I always set it to 'permissive'
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18:15:57 <Samu> got 1 coal train, now going afk lol
18:17:38 <Alberth> be sure to buy a new train and/or lay new tracks every now and then :)
18:19:11 <Samu> dosbox ttd and openttd side by side, gonna check if a year takes the same time in both games
18:19:18 <frosch123> and make sure you do not miss 2050. iirc you cannot continue playing after 2050 in ttd, so you won't see the year anymore
18:22:26 <Samu> got both games at 27th september 1950, how do I unpause both at the same time?
18:22:54 <Xaroth> unpause one, pause it again
18:23:00 <Xaroth> then unpause the other, and unpause the first
18:24:49 <Samu> money difference, it decays more in ttd than ottd
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18:25:56 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't ottd slightly slower than ttd?
18:26:38 <planetmaker> 3 milliseconds slower each tick
18:27:06 <planetmaker> so 0.2 seconds slower for each game day
18:27:29 <planetmaker> but it's even documented :-)
18:27:38 <planetmaker> in the newgrf specs
18:28:29 <Samu> train running cost in ttd last year -£1,730 vs -£1,723 in ottd
18:29:26 <Samu> property maintenance is equal
18:30:33 <Samu> loan interest is also different
18:32:10 <Samu> loading cargo mechanism is different in ottd, it doesn't use the original
18:36:14 <Samu> the income per trip is 19k in ottd but 12k in ttd
18:45:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21176 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files):
18:45:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by frosch
18:45:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 9 changes by bmnds
18:45:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: swedish - 1 changes by Zuu
18:45:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: turkish - 33 changes by niw3
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18:52:03 <Hirundo> Rubidium: Did you test FS#4177 in combination with reversing trains ?
18:52:05 <Samu> dosbox plays midi much better
18:52:35 <Rubidium> Hirundo: IIRC I did, why are you asking?
18:52:56 <andythenorth> anyone got any FIRS 0.5.x gameplay feedback?
18:53:44 <Rubidium> it fails horribly in 0.5.x
18:53:58 <Hirundo> What happens to trains, that are (upon tunnel entry) hidden in the old code while they're not hidden in the new code?
18:54:42 <SmatZ> Hirundo: savegame conversion should fix that
18:54:58 <Rubidium> Hirundo: huh? Everything that happens after loading the savegame should be as it was, just at another time
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18:56:02 <Alberth> andythenorth: it is a great set, I enjoy playing with it. Very nice industry graphics, a bit static, but very nice nonetheless.
18:56:20 <Samu> i just had an idea for non-dedicated servers
18:56:22 <andythenorth> static? as in, awaiting animation?
18:56:33 <Hirundo> afterload checks 'if (visible && !should_be_visible)' (for entry), but what about the other way around
18:57:39 <Alberth> is there something more specific you want to know?
18:58:15 <Rubidium> Hirundo: the other case, !visible && should_be_visible doesn't matter as it would be made unvisible a (few) tick(s) later
18:58:25 <Rubidium> after all, it's still entering the tunnel, isn't it?
18:58:32 <andythenorth> Alberth: there's a lot left to do, trying to figure out priorities
18:59:21 <Alberth> simpler game play would be more important than moving industries imho
18:59:33 <Hirundo> Except, if the train does not have any wagons, is stopped and you reverse it in exactly the right frame
19:00:36 <Hirundo> I guess, no one will ever trigger that (if it actually works), though
19:00:56 <Rubidium> Hirundo: please make a testcase for that, so I can confirm a possible fix for it works
19:01:11 <Samu> I'd like to share something but I see you're busy
19:01:32 <Alberth> andythenorth: and the silently dropping of the last few tonnes make playing the set with trucks less enjoyable
19:01:49 <Hirundo> Rubidium: I'll look at it tomorrow
19:02:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: so simpler game play => FIRS Basic needed?
19:03:09 <Alberth> seems like a wise move to me
19:03:54 <Samu> I have some ideas to provide game continuity for non-dedicated servers whenever the host leaves.
19:03:58 <Alberth> if the set is stable enough to do that
19:04:40 <Samu> another player would take place as host automatically, the remaining players would join that new host
19:05:11 <Alberth> right, let's all use the guy with a slow internet connection :p
19:05:13 <Samu> the server would only close if no one else could be the host
19:05:57 <Alberth> also, different machines may have different ideas whether the host is down, and/or who to move to
19:06:00 <Samu> there could be a verification check for every player when that player first joins the server
19:06:19 <Samu> to see if that player can be a future host if needed
19:06:19 <b_jonas> and then the game would be split to two halves, with some players connected to one half, the other to the other half, and can't be joined again
19:06:52 <b_jonas> if some players could still access the old server I mean\
19:07:39 <Alberth> Samu: in a network, everybody has a different idea of what is happening
19:08:42 <Samu> wish I could explain myself better
19:08:48 <Alberth> you could make a central point to synchronize those views, but you'd do that at a host, which is down (at least for some of the players)
19:09:22 <Samu> i'm not really savy in these things but I try to give some ideas :)
19:09:57 <Samu> so let's take the example of bittorrent
19:10:03 <Alberth> neither am I, but I have done a few courses network thingies, and these kind of things are HARD
19:10:48 <Alberth> eg every machine in a MP is at a different point in the game
19:10:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21177 /trunk/src/ (language.h strings.cpp): -Codechange: change UniqueLanguageFile into GetLanguage
19:11:27 <Alberth> eg due to network delays
19:11:41 <Samu> ah, the so-called 'latency'
19:13:03 <b_jonas> couldn't users manage this by hand? like, if the server goes down, they figure out what's happened, start a new server, and load the latest savegame?
19:13:12 <b_jonas> that has less potential for mistakes than an automatic system
19:14:12 <Samu> an autosave feature for when the server closes for all clients?
19:14:54 <b_jonas> can't they save manually?
19:15:10 <Alberth> Samu: how do you decide "all clients?"
19:15:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21178 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h): -Codechange: pass the language_id to TranslateTTDPatchCodes as well
19:15:46 <b_jonas> Alberth: no, he means, any client, when the connection is broken, autosaves the game to a file locally
19:15:56 <Samu> I think a client is someone that joins a server, not the one that created the server game
19:16:13 <AveiMil> Did original TTD have multiplayer?
19:16:29 <b_jonas> Alberth: you mean yuo gave courses on network things?
19:16:52 <b_jonas> AveiMil: ais only. the network one is completely broken.
19:17:26 <AveiMil> my friend claimed we played it MP 15 years ago, but I can't remember
19:17:32 <Eddi|zuHause> TTO had 2-player mode over serial cable
19:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and possibly modem
19:18:23 <Alberth> b_jonas: no, but I followed a few, and implemented a protocol to make synchronous communication between processes.
19:18:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never tried it myself, but i heard from people that it desynced quite easily. but it din't check sync status, so you could have completely different maps after a while
19:19:51 <Samu> I have a question about those dedicated servers
19:20:04 <Samu> some servers don't pause the game when a player joins
19:20:10 <Samu> yet the game doesn't desync
19:20:40 <Alberth> does it? I didn't know
19:20:44 <Samu> couldn't you base non-dedicated server continuity from there?
19:21:28 <Rubidium> Q: how often do server owners ask about how to port forward stuff?
19:21:43 <planetmaker> Samu: if the server doesn't pause you just have to have a faster client...
19:21:47 <Rubidium> Q: do you think OpenTTD players actually care to get interested into port forwarding stuff?
19:22:18 <Rubidium> Q: how would the other clients communicate with eachother when they can't talk to eachother because the clients haven't set up port forwarding?
19:22:26 <planetmaker> A: 0.8 / actual server
19:22:28 <Samu> no, that doesn't seem to matter if the game checks beforehand who can be eligible to host
19:22:46 <Rubidium> Q: how would clients communicate with eachother when a few have IPv4 only, and a few IPv6 only and the server both?
19:23:24 <andythenorth> the only doubt I have about FIRS industry stability is the stupid forge / blacksmith
19:23:50 <Rubidium> in short: way too much work for way too little benefit
19:24:11 <Rubidium> or, in other words: I'm not going to develop or support it
19:28:46 <Samu> a bit less elegant idea is to autosave upon server closure and have someone re-host by loading the savegame, but I see this would be problematic for 56k hosts
19:30:52 <Samu> transferring server status to a suitable client looks easy on paper
19:31:16 <planetmaker> Samu: only on the very first thought
19:33:27 <Samu> do you know how some games work?
19:33:45 <Samu> when a player creates a server, it is actually not 'creating it'
19:33:59 <Samu> it's telling the masterserver to host for him
19:34:09 * Alberth knows how a few board games work
19:34:14 <Samu> the masterserver is the host, he becomes a client
19:35:06 <Alberth> yeah, there are a lot of different ways to organize multi-player internet games
19:35:44 <Alberth> what is feasible depends on allowable network latency, bandwidth, and probably server ownership
19:36:50 <Samu> warcraft 3 has 2 methods for hosting games, mind if I talk about it?
19:37:10 <TrueBrain> I hate games where the hosting is not really done by the 'host'. In result, your lag is always the time it takes you to reach the 'nearest' server the company created (or published) the game from is. If you host the game yourself, you and your (close-by) friends at least can enjoy lag-free games .. (/me looks at CoD)
19:37:25 <Alberth> what's the point of that discussion, I am not very interested in how warcraft does networking
19:38:12 <TrueBrain> 'cloud' computing is such a buzz word :(
19:38:18 <TrueBrain> 'cloud' gaming even worse so
19:38:41 <Alberth> to get money, you need to be buzzword compliant
19:39:07 <TrueBrain> and of course it solves a tons of problems if the dedicated server is non-existant, as nobody can hack the CDkey check away
19:39:32 <TrueBrain> but saving your games in the cloud (Assassins Creed 2) is just one step too far :(
19:39:53 <TrueBrain> I tell you, in a year or 2, you don't buy games anymore .. you stream them directly from some cloud
19:39:58 <TrueBrain> when your internet is gone, so are all your games
19:40:05 * TrueBrain is happy LAN Parties are not dead yet
19:40:40 <Samu> can I use DOS midi files on openttd?
19:40:49 <Samu> or, how do I extract them?
19:40:50 <Alberth> games are the less worse part of it, your office documents stored at some other companies server is much more fun :p
19:41:06 <TrueBrain> Alberth: sadly enough, my company does that for other companies
19:41:15 <TrueBrain> we have tons and tons and tons of data from other companies stored ..
19:41:26 <TrueBrain> always fun when that connection breaks for some reason
19:41:56 <Samu> it will be like electric wires are now at some point
19:42:22 <TrueBrain> I am just really happy OpenTTD is how it is, network wise .. no bullshit :)
19:43:03 <Samu> there's internets at 1GB speed already
19:43:32 <TrueBrain> 'already'? There has been for years :)
19:43:40 <Samu> no way I'm getting it yet
19:45:06 <Samu> is there a reason I can't use the DOS TTD midi for openttd? they are playing perfect
19:45:13 * Rubidium wonders whether TrueBrain has been paying 250 euros a month the last few years, or is that what you have just a mere 100 Mbps?
19:45:53 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: a few of my clients have 1 and even 10 gbit/s connections
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19:45:59 <TrueBrain> I am sure you worked at companies which have the same :)
19:46:19 <AveiMil> Is there a way to see how much a tunnel is going to cost?
19:46:26 <TrueBrain> AveiMil: hit the shift!
19:46:29 <TrueBrain> (works for everything)
19:46:43 <AveiMil> don't see any display
19:46:54 <TrueBrain> if you build something with shift pressed, it gives you how much it would cost
19:46:58 <TrueBrain> (estimate in some cases)
19:47:29 * TrueBrain is still sad the patch never got accepted which gave a hover displaying that info :))
19:47:31 <AveiMil> shoulda used that before I planted down a 100K 21 tile road tunnel :P
19:48:56 <Samu> Tunnels should have a max length, you don't really build a tunnel across the whole Earth either
19:50:05 <avdg> nah, they only have to be expensive :)
19:50:18 <TrueBrain> avdg: negative expensive, like the old days :D
19:51:02 <Samu> max bridge size, max tunnel size
19:51:04 <TrueBrain> avdg: was always my way to start a map. Build a really long tunnel, and you have enough money to do what ever :)
19:51:06 <avdg> long tunnels exists, so what? :p
19:51:50 <Alberth> TrueBrain: so that's why we have a cheat window now :p
19:52:13 <Samu> these midis play perfect, are you sure there isn't any way to import them to ottd?
19:52:39 <Alberth> Samu: afaik there is no goood way to play them
19:52:57 <Samu> use dosbox midi emulator, or whatever
19:53:03 <Samu> no idea what they call it
19:53:05 <b_jonas> I do like long bridges, only I wish I could build signals on them
19:53:12 <b_jonas> but it's not too likely that would ever happen
19:53:14 <TrueBrain> b_jonas: don't we all :)
19:53:46 * Zuu thinks it is an interesting challenge
19:54:17 <avdg> what are the problems with extra long bridges?
19:54:19 <Samu> is dosbox opensource or gpl or free, I don't know
19:54:39 <Samu> because this little program is playing it 100% correct
19:54:58 <Alberth> signals on bridges is a nice step towards multi-level worlds
19:55:06 <Terkhen> Samu: that question can be easily answered if you go to its homepage and check there
19:55:23 <Alberth> Samu: you heard about a little something called the Internet?
19:56:07 <AveiMil> Coal mine subsidence leaves trail of destruction..., wth
19:56:26 <TrueBrain> those things happen, yes :)
19:56:45 <Alberth> it is a long time ago that I played with disasters enabled
19:57:02 <AveiMil> coal mine gone, road vehicles gone, and the 79K road gone
19:57:12 <Samu> GNU General Public License (GPL)
19:57:23 <b_jonas> yes, I disabled them too now
19:57:27 <b_jonas> because ufos are annoying
19:57:40 <Alberth> indeed, very annoying
19:57:48 <Terkhen> Samu: you don't need to notify us of everything you find either...
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19:58:06 <TrueBrain> kind of common knowledge :D
19:58:13 <Terkhen> something bad happened in one of my games of original TTD, since then I always disable disasters too
19:58:31 <TrueBrain> the only disaster I always looked forward too, was the UFO
19:59:28 <Terkhen> yeah, I was very nervous whenever I saw a zeppelin flying around
19:59:33 <b_jonas> TrueBrain: the small or the large UFO?
19:59:42 <TrueBrain> b_jonas: what, ther eare 2 types? :(
20:00:06 <b_jonas> TrueBrain: yes, the large UFO eats railway tracks, the small ufo eats a bus or something
20:00:15 <TrueBrain> ah; the one eating railtrack
20:00:19 <TrueBrain> always took me for ever to find the jam
20:02:27 <TrueBrain> Yrol: "Extract the openttd-useful.zip file and copy the content to some <personal folder>. " <- based on that, I guess it can be any folder you like
20:02:33 <TrueBrain> just one that you made .. somewhere
20:11:12 <Rubidium> the one you're likely going to configure in visual studio a few steps later
20:11:43 <Samu> an idea for NewGRF that have parameters
20:12:13 <Samu> display them like when you're configuring an AI seetings
20:12:55 <Alberth> did you check how it is done in a recent nightly?
20:13:01 <Rubidium> that idea is so last summer
20:13:30 <Samu> so it's already implemented?
20:14:26 <Yrol> Truebrain, i solved it by just copying ALL the files ( not only those 9 mentioned ones ) into a folder which i specified in the projects properties/settings. Now it builds :o)
20:16:08 <AveiMil> How much money do you usually have by 1970 playing normal OpenTTD?
20:16:11 <Alberth> Samu: it helps if you are aware of current state of the art. It helps even more if you actually do something with your ideas instead of just spreading them on the channel into oblivion
20:16:41 <Yrol> AveiMil, that depends on when you start.
20:16:47 <Alberth> no idea, I tend to have a positive amount before 1960, after that money is irrelevant
20:17:36 <Samu> i can't code, I tried building some grf and nfo some months ago and I never figured it out
20:17:47 <AveiMil> definetly not irrelevant anymore :)
20:18:16 <Yrol> Alberth, indeed, you could aswell say there is a cheat built-in or so
20:18:49 <AveiMil> Coal from 1 mine has 9 transfers until it reaches the power plant on the other side of the map
20:18:51 <Alberth> AveiMil: depends on your playing style. I prefer to build tracks rather than running a company fighting for money
20:19:20 <AveiMil> yeah, I'm sure a lot of people like that the best
20:19:25 <Alberth> Yrol: there is, but I only use it when testing a patch, not when I play
20:19:36 <Samu> I failed university, it was these things I was studying
20:19:56 <AveiMil> Samu, if you want I can help you make a basic NewGRF
20:20:01 <Yrol> Alberth, oh, i meant it more like "play hard for 20 years, after that do what you want", not an actual cheat
20:20:02 <Alberth> you don't learn coding at the university
20:20:09 <AveiMil> I just learned this 1 week ago
20:20:11 <Samu> i couldn't use linux, couldn't even access a floppy
20:20:15 <AveiMil> after having played OpenTTD for less than 10 hours
20:20:41 <Alberth> floppies are quite complicated at unices
20:20:51 <Yrol> Alberth, kinda like the vanilla game is cheating itself
20:21:33 <Eddi|zuHause> who uses floppies anymore?
20:22:22 <Alberth> yeah, nowadays, linuces are way to simple to use :p
20:22:46 <Yrol> Samu, in 10 years or so, nobody can acess a floppy anymore, so, dont worry, we all dumb down ;o)
20:22:48 <Alberth> downloading 75 1.44MB disks for Linux Slackware :)
20:23:11 <Yrol> Alberth, have fun with the copying and installing °grins°
20:24:15 <Yrol> and take care to not write the wrong discnumber onto the small etiquette
20:24:15 <Alberth> then I bought a SCSI tape drive :p
20:25:38 <Samu> is there a newgrf editor?
20:25:48 <Samu> that's too difficult for me
20:26:06 <Samu> i have to start somewhere
20:26:33 <Yrol> If it where "that" easy, everybody could make GRF's.
20:27:15 <Samu> something a la Scenario Editor
20:27:31 <Terkhen> search for GRF Maker, but it is almost as confusing as using the command line utilities
20:28:27 <AveiMil> [21:20] <AveiMil> Samu, if you want I can help you make a basic NewGRF
20:31:29 <Samu> sorry, I'm looking for my post where I tried to make a grf
20:32:15 <Terkhen> Samu: you should check nml
20:34:05 <AveiMil> it's very easy with nml
20:34:16 <AveiMil> once you have all the things you need
20:34:58 <AveiMil> I can help guide you through it all if you want to
20:36:12 <Samu> nml doesn't seem to be for windows
20:36:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's python. it's cross-platform.
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20:38:05 <Yrol> AveiMil, just a quick question as you seem to know about such things: is it possible and if so how ( roughly explained ) to change introduction dates of railcarriage and locomotives?
20:39:07 <Eddi|zuHause> no. it's a scripting language, it doesn't need compiling
20:39:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's interpreted language
20:40:00 <AveiMil> Yrol, I don't know much but yes, I know THAT's possible :)
20:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: yes, with nml, you simply write something like: "item (vehicle) {introduction_date: date(...)}
20:40:55 <Yrol> ah, okies, thank you both.
20:41:16 <AveiMil> Python 2.7 Windows installer (Windows binary -- does not include source)
20:42:08 <Samu> oh, I knew I was missing something
20:42:30 <AveiMil> PIL-1.1.7.win32-py2.7.exe [838k] [python 2.7]
20:43:41 <planetmaker> that's like 5 openttd downloads
20:43:55 <planetmaker> maybe 20 updates to newgrfs
20:43:56 <Terkhen> and I thought that I had a bad connection :(
20:44:40 <planetmaker> still people out there without flatrate?
20:44:51 <planetmaker> or at least a sufficient monthly volume?
20:45:05 <AveiMil> may daily download rate is like 20 gigabyte
20:45:31 <planetmaker> well... I used to get along with 6GB / month, but...
20:45:32 <AveiMil> what kind of ISP are you using that charges by the megabyte?
20:46:05 <Samu> after 1000 it's taxed per megabyte
20:46:21 <planetmaker> doesn't sound cheap
20:46:26 <AveiMil> are you someplace remote where you can't have a proper IPS?
20:46:39 <planetmaker> I pay 2€ / day for mobile with unlimitted amount
20:46:51 <Samu> the better mobile ISP is Vodafone
20:47:14 <AveiMil> why do you need mobile ISP?
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20:48:06 <Samu> we (family) didn't plan at first
20:48:16 <Samu> to use this internet for everyday
20:48:39 <__ln__> I paid 39€ for a pre-paid 3G usb modem, and that price includes one month of unlimited data, besides the device.
20:49:08 <Samu> the announced 100MB free was the catch
20:49:27 <Samu> it is seriously impossible to use internet with just that quota
20:50:01 <planetmaker> about time to switch provider, eh?
20:50:03 <Samu> so, we try to use less than 1000MB every month
20:50:19 <avdg> if you use internet at every moment, then yes it is impossible
20:50:30 <avdg> if you use it very rare, then it is possible
20:50:47 <__ln__> i feel the urge to laugh at the situation, but i'll try to stay quiet
20:50:53 <Samu> changing ISP isn't that easy over here
20:50:57 * avdg is fighting with download limits
20:51:13 <ccfreak2k> I find it interesting that openttd defaults to British pounds and metric distances, and yet also defaults to right side driving.
20:51:30 <Samu> we're in a triple play kind of pack thingy on our current ISP
20:51:42 <Samu> television + telephone + internet
20:52:05 <Samu> I am obliged to pay television and one of the others
20:52:21 <Samu> I can't have only tv or only telephone or only internet
20:52:42 <__ln__> Samu: can't you just leave the "internet" part unused (and then it's free!), and get another "internet"?
20:52:56 <ccfreak2k> __ln__, or use bonding!
20:53:14 <Samu> all the providers locks us to this + that
20:54:04 <Samu> vodafone locks us to phone + something else
20:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> how the hell can you get by with 100MB a month?!?
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20:54:24 <Samu> sometihng else could be tv or internet
20:54:59 <Samu> that's part of the pack, I have cable connection on the other house
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20:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> in every supermarket here they sell shit like "prepaid internet: 15€"
20:56:11 <Samu> the 100 MB for mobile is only offered as free for users that already have a triple pack
20:56:15 <Samu> triple play pack or whatever
20:58:09 <Samu> basically customers get locked into one provider for all communications
20:58:36 <Samu> having 2 different providers is much more expensive
20:59:19 <Samu> I'd end having to pay twice the same thing, either TV or Telephone
21:01:38 <Yrol> °hums° "It's a jungle out there... Disorder and confusion everywhere... Poison in the very air we breathe... "
21:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but what the heck is the use of an internet that you can't use anyway?!?
21:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, 100MB is _nothing_!
21:03:59 <Eddi|zuHause> through normal surfing you can't get below 500MB per month...
21:04:57 <Samu> my father had the final decision
21:05:26 <Samu> to have internet on both places without having to get another ISP
21:06:13 <Samu> the alternative would be a double play pack from another provider
21:06:46 <Samu> that's about 40 euros per month after installation costs and all that
21:07:25 *** JVassie_ has joined #openttd
21:07:52 <Samu> 2000 on our current connection is 50 euros
21:08:37 <Samu> but we had the advantage of not paying activaction, there no installation seriously, and we only pay what we use
21:09:04 <__ln__> and you cannot download a 15-MB file
21:09:11 <Eddi|zuHause> really... how can people get anything that is not a flatrate...
21:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it's completely insane to worry about "can i download this 15MB file now or not?!"
21:10:07 <Samu> but in the end it seems cheaper
21:10:20 <Samu> we're waiting for some kind of promotion or 'happy hours'
21:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> honestly... you should just get a 5GB download bill and say "NOW can we have real internet, please?"
21:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't keep statistics, but i'm fairly certain i can't be below 30GB per month...
21:11:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and i have _really bad_ internet...
21:11:54 <Samu> the cheapest profile with unlimited quota is about 40 euros
21:12:00 <Samu> for mobile connection, of course
21:12:11 <Samu> which requires a triple pack
21:12:21 <__ln__> what about limited but limited to something sane, not 100MB?
21:13:16 <Samu> there's various profiles
21:13:46 <Samu> we had to pick one and we ended up deciding the free/per MB
21:13:57 <Samu> there's one that is taxed monthly
21:14:05 <Samu> but it also has the per MB
21:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2342845165+ 79563818 +2765392284+ 1875122418+ 2254596384
21:14:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 9317520069
21:14:21 <Samu> the cheapest that has unlimited traffic
21:14:33 <Samu> cuts down the speed to 128 kbps
21:14:39 <Samu> once you go past a quota
21:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that's 9GB over the last 4 days...
21:14:56 <Samu> and it is 40 something euros per month
21:15:22 <Samu> we never know when we're out of here
21:15:37 <Samu> I could be using 0MB and still paying 40 euros
21:16:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and you spend 5MB to talk here about not spending 15MB :p
21:16:31 <Samu> 8 MB in 5 hours currently
21:17:18 <AveiMil> my mobile phone uses more traffic than that for free every day
21:19:15 <__ln__> Samu: maybe you shouldn't have given funding to that italian guy after all.
21:21:41 <Samu> a few daysago, the new Greece
21:22:26 <AveiMil> so Portugal must be pretty rich
21:22:50 <Samu> external deficit or something in english
21:24:53 <Samu> we should be like the french, but we aren't. There's riots all over France
21:25:03 <Samu> our riots are barely noticeable
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21:37:35 <AveiMil> pure Road Vehicles and Ships
21:38:13 <AveiMil> all the coal is delivered at the north west (top left) power plant
21:39:12 <AveiMil> a little bit iron ore (3 mines) to 1 steel mill -> factory -> goods -> city
21:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, there can't be riots.
21:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> because stepping on the grass is forbidden.
21:44:39 <SmatZ> wow, french government fainted
21:51:34 <SmatZ> I shouldn't have played pokemon :p
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21:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "The Le Figaro" that sounds very wrong. don't they have editors that speak even three words of french?!?
22:00:44 <xiong> AveiMil, Your persistence in working road vehicles is commendable. Now try it starting in 1850.
22:01:00 <planetmaker> It's also quite fun to teach English native speakers the pronounciation of "ü"
22:01:53 <planetmaker> that's as interesting as Japanese and the difference between "l" and "r"
22:02:27 <AveiMil> xiong, hah, nah, this is all testing to balance my mod
22:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the university of Leipzig now offers courses in Saxon for "non-native" students ;)
22:02:45 <AveiMil> but I want all forms of transportation to be equally viable providing the map suits it
22:02:55 <planetmaker> haha @ Eddi|zuHause
22:03:00 <planetmaker> that might be dearly needed
22:03:06 <AveiMil> I don't expect to end up with a company value much higher than 2.5 if I go for pure trains
22:04:24 <SmatZ> planetmaker: interesting, do you know with what letter have Czechs the biggest problems?
22:04:34 <AveiMil> and if I do end up with about 15 million company value by end of 1975 I'll know train nerfs are in order :P
22:04:50 <SmatZ> planetmaker: ok, I was just asking :)
22:05:04 <SmatZ> that "l" and "r" problem sounds unbelievable to me :)
22:05:04 <planetmaker> hey, now please tell me :-)
22:05:10 <SmatZ> planetmaker: I don't know :D
22:05:29 <planetmaker> I assumed yours was a rethorical question :-)
22:06:29 <planetmaker> I'm not even sure that there's that much of a difficult pronounciation issue for Czechs with the German language
22:07:09 <SmatZ> in English movies (mostly US), there are sometimes Russian people with strong accent
22:07:47 <SmatZ> I guess the difference between native Deutsch and Slavic Deutsch is similiar )
22:07:49 <planetmaker> :-) I can tell usually when a person with a slavic mother tongue speaks, but it's difficult to say which
22:09:06 <planetmaker> but your family speaks it quite well :-)
22:10:38 <__ln__> I was wondering in my mind the other day whether all foreign languages should be taught first using phonemic transcription and not regular letters…
22:11:00 <planetmaker> what purpose would it serve, __ln__ ?
22:11:29 <xiong> __ln__, All languages should be written in IPA. That's obvious.
22:11:56 <SmatZ> xiong: how many letters does IPA have?
22:12:10 <AveiMil> planetmaker, default Road Vehicle properties, where can I find them?
22:12:38 <xiong> ...except for the undeniable superiority of /hanzi/, in which *meaning* is represented, rather than mere sound; and people who speak ten different languages can comprehend.
22:12:39 <AveiMil> I found all the properties in action0properties.py
22:12:41 <Terkhen> hmmm... why mountainous map generation never uses the last height level?
22:12:45 <AveiMil> but where can I view their default values?
22:13:06 <__ln__> planetmaker: Because there is always a number of people who do not grasp the pronunciation rules properly. For example in Spanish, 'h' is not pronounced at all, but certain people will pronounce it nonetheless because they are influenced by how it is written.
22:13:17 <xiong> SmatZ, I have no idea. About 100, I'd guess, if you refer only to primitives. They combine.
22:14:05 <planetmaker> __ln__: but how does first introducing the phonetic alphabet or way help with that?
22:14:26 <xiong> Only if you think sound is more important than meaning.
22:14:27 <planetmaker> AveiMil: as such the same place as before... you should really bookmark that
22:14:44 <Terkhen> __ln__ has a point; that's one of my biggest problems with english
22:15:14 <__ln__> planetmaker: That way they'd learn how to speak first, and only later confuse themselves with rules of spelling.
22:15:30 <planetmaker> It's just a matter of where you start, I think
22:15:40 <AveiMil> I had that bookmarked
22:15:53 <Terkhen> in fact, my pronunciation is far worse when I'm reading
22:15:58 <planetmaker> and yes, sure, getting the pronounciation of certain letter combinations right... is not always easy
22:16:00 <xiong> Not only Chinese people; but Koreans and Japanese can read at least a subset of /hanzi/. You only need about 5000 characters to read a daily newspaper. Most educated people are not familiar with much more than 10K.
22:16:22 <planetmaker> ask any random German to pronounce the English "th" and you'll surely end up with the English equivalent of either "z" or "s"
22:17:23 <xiong> ... and if that sounds like a lot compared to 26 letters (for some value of 26), then remark that none of those letters mean anything and you need to learn how to *combine* them into words, each of which must be memorized individually -- spelling and meaning.
22:17:41 <planetmaker> though interestingly sometimes in Scotland I wondered... it nearly sounded to me like a German accent what was genuine Scottish accent ;-)
22:19:02 <xiong> Compare /hanzi/, which is written with only about 8 basic strokes (for some value of 8, depending on pedant) from which you construct your characters. And don't forget that all but the simplest characters are combinations of the simpler ones.
22:20:58 <__ln__> There are also people (even smart people) who in their ignorance think that this whole concept of phonemes and phones and such is something philosophical, metaphysical, while the written text is what's concrete.
22:21:11 <xiong> When CJK people, here in US, go to a restaurant (unless they are all, including the waiter, from the same town), they will speak English, because that is common to all; and the waiter will leave a pad of paper on the table. The guests will write their orders on the pad themselves, in /hanzi/; because that is common to them all.
22:22:41 <xiong> This practice is not universal, of course -- nothing is -- but it is done; and shows the clear advantage of symbols that encode meaning rather than sound.
22:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the worse problem than mispronunciation is actually misemphasise...
22:23:44 <xiong> What you may find more astonishing is that I have seen Chinese people, both native to the same town, speaking the exact same dialect of the same language, unable to be sure of each others' meanings, even face-to-face.
22:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if you put the emphasise in the wrong place, people get _really_ difficult to understand
22:24:33 <xiong> That is because so many Chinese languages abound in homonyms. This is the basis for what Westerners call "crosstalk", which would be extremely funny if all the jokes were not 150 years old.
22:25:14 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: except if the speaker has the same native language as you do, then it's understandable but hurts the brain.
22:25:59 <b_jonas> meh, you people and all your hard to speak languages
22:26:11 <xiong> So, I have seen people standing on the sidewalk, in the middle of a verbal convo, sketch characters on the palm of the left hand with the forefinger of the right. It happens very quickly and to understand it, you must know the context of the convo and the correct stroke order of the character. But there it is.
22:26:37 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: but indeed misplacing the stressed syllable in a word is an easy way to distract people.
22:26:46 <planetmaker> __ln__: it's really hard to intentionally mis-stress your mother tongue
22:28:31 <Eddi|zuHause> what's evil is using greek-derived words. then people will interpret your mis-emphasise of them as being an uneducated fool...
22:28:38 <ccfreak2k> Is there some kind of setting to make trucks that are loading move up if the truck in front of them moves?
22:29:18 <xiong> It's even worse on the phone; nothing can be sketched. If I want to tell someone who I am, I say, /wo shr xiong mao de xiong/. This says, "I am /xiong/-sound as in panda bear". I prefer to think of myself as an American black bear but this is the conventional way to disambiguate my name from all other /xiong/-sounding characters.
22:30:50 <b_jonas> planetmaker: yes, it takes a genious like Egressy Béni to make everyone do that
22:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody said spelling your name over the phone is easier in european languages :p
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22:31:28 <Samu> hi all again, TTD game testing is in year 1971
22:31:55 <AveiMil> Oil well tends to run out after a few years, do Oil Rig suffer the same fate?
22:32:15 <Samu> you mean in the original?
22:32:35 <__ln__> hmm, since I'm not familiar with phonemic transcription of german: do vier and fünf begin with the same phoneme?
22:32:38 <AveiMil> so Oil Rigs don't run out then
22:32:45 <AveiMil> is there any way to modify that with NewGRF?
22:32:50 <AveiMil> so they behave as oil wells?
22:33:00 <planetmaker> but the vowel is different
22:33:55 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: yes, f and v sound the same.
22:34:09 <planetmaker> __ln__: I think the "rule" somewhat is: if a word with "v" is of germanic origin, it's pronounced like "f". Otherwise like "w"
22:34:22 <planetmaker> Vase vs. vier for example :-)
22:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i never really thought about that...
22:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of those things that you do instinctively right as a native speaker
22:36:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the f-v problem is of course one of the big difficulties when learning to write.
22:36:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the "Vogel-V" and "Fuchs-F"
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22:37:55 <__ln__> finns tend to pronounce english 'v' too much like /w/, although the correct english /v/ is closer to /f/...
22:38:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the things mr. Duden did not get right
22:38:11 <planetmaker> __ln__: germans don't make a difference between w and v ;-)
22:38:32 <planetmaker> also not in English :-P
22:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: english 'v' is something inbetween /w/ and /f/
22:39:05 <Samu> in original ttd, the oil tanker has a capacity or 2,100 litres, but in open ttd, it has 21,000 litres
22:39:24 <planetmaker> vat ve see here is train navigation
22:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: it's an error in TTD
22:40:15 <planetmaker> Samu: I doubt that. As litres always come in multiples of 1k
22:40:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: it's "21 units" in both, but the conversion factor is misrepresented
22:41:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: if you look closely, you should see that it says "21,00"
22:42:01 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: and in between /w/ and english /v/ is the finnish v. (which has an IPA symbol but i'm lazy to find it right now)
22:43:09 <Samu> it clearly says 2,100 unless I'm missing something
22:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: maybe it's version dependent...
22:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: but the actual capacity hasn't changed. only the display string
22:44:15 <Samu> 22,000 litres for the ship, 2,100 for the road vehicle
22:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: yes, but 2,100 litre is more like a bathtub, not a truck ;)
22:44:38 <Noldo> I've had to think about finnish pronausiation lately, because the kid is having trouble learing to speak
22:46:14 <Noldo> it's suprisingly hard to tell the difference between some of the consonants
22:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: btw, there is some difference between "w" as /w/ and "v" as /w/. try "Waage" vs. "vage"
22:48:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: "v" in "vage" is slightly stronger...
22:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause> at least in my perception...
22:48:23 <planetmaker> maybe because _you_ have an accent ;-)
22:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i certainly have very little accent ;)
22:49:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (if you compare it to other people growing up in the same area :p)
22:49:21 <SmatZ> in CZ, there can be a big difference between people living 100km from each other
22:49:39 <planetmaker> SmatZ: so it can be here :-)
22:49:53 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: even 10km may make a really huge difference here...
22:50:01 <avdg> here it can mean a big difference in language in less then 10 km
22:50:26 <planetmaker> I had one interesting experience when I moved to Jena years ago: a guy stopped with his car next to me and asked me .... *something*
22:50:32 <SmatZ> I live in the centre of CZ, not on the czech/moravia border :)
22:50:42 <planetmaker> third try also failed
22:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> around 120 years ago, Mr. Duden was a school teacher, and in his (local) school he hat pupils which spoke SEVEN different dialects.
22:50:48 <planetmaker> and he left quite frurstated
22:50:53 <planetmaker> He obviously spoke German ;-)
22:51:03 <planetmaker> But I didn't understand a single sylable.
22:51:08 <planetmaker> I guess he was Saxonian
22:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: in Thuringia, you sometimes have two neighbouring villages.
22:51:30 <b_jonas> or do native Germans understand that?
22:51:40 <planetmaker> Weeks later - I pondered a lot about what that was about - I guess he asked me for the next telphone...
22:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and inhabitants can't understand each other
22:51:47 <planetmaker> it was just around the corner.
22:51:48 * avdg is still missing the 'localized' streets in his and other towns in his country
22:51:56 <SmatZ> sometimes, it's not only about dialects, but also about different words for something
22:52:02 <planetmaker> b_jonas: I can tell clearly the difference.
22:52:23 <planetmaker> roughly. Depends on context etc pp
22:52:30 <avdg> smatz: thats what we call dialects ;-)
22:52:42 <SmatZ> people speaking hantec (moravian dialect) can say a sentence, without me understanding a word
22:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: depends on if they actually try to make themselves understood
22:53:04 <SmatZ> avdg: ok :) I thought dialects are mostly about different pronounciation :)
22:53:16 <planetmaker> let me look through my bookmarks. There's an interesting series of studies by the university of Regensburg or so... on German dialects
22:53:18 <b_jonas> sure, and technical contexts like computers or mathematics are easier to understand in French or English,
22:53:21 <avdg> np, the meaning can be wide
22:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: if you walk past a group of swiss guys talking their native valley-dialect, you have _no_ chance to understand anything...
22:53:58 <b_jonas> mathematical texts in fact use a very small vocabulary with every composed word mirror translated to all langauges, which makes reading foreign language mathematical texts easy
22:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it wants me to install quicktime...
22:56:25 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes... it's audio. obviously in quicktime. bad luck for you then ;-) Really worth it, though
22:56:35 <avdg> hmmm, they are missing many dialects for my language -_
22:57:10 <avdg> they even missed my city
22:57:41 <Rubidium> cool, frosch123's client's disconnect reached the IRC server before his parting message. So he's getting even quicker lately :)
22:58:33 <SmatZ> :-) I thought the very same :)
22:58:44 <SmatZ> also, I thought you are already sleeping, Rubidium ;)
22:59:35 <Rubidium> SmatZ: nah, just watching some movie or something
23:00:02 <planetmaker> the representation is IMHO better than the one on the map you link
23:00:49 <planetmaker> as the dot density gives you also gradients and a visual clue to the percentage and also the 'minority' opinions in regions
23:01:32 <Samu> I spotted more differences
23:01:46 <Samu> I can refit aircraft to all cargo except oil
23:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the known "fixes" ;)
23:03:59 <b_jonas> makes sense because there aren't separate oil planes in the set
23:04:16 <b_jonas> so if someone wants to waste their money on oil planes, let them do it
23:04:43 <b_jonas> and a plane of all mail totally makes sense to me
23:04:52 <b_jonas> it can even earn a lot
23:05:01 <Rubidium> oh, so because *someone* might want to do something it must be enabled?
23:05:44 <Samu> first feature I see removed
23:05:51 <Samu> so far I've seen additions
23:06:12 <Rubidium> then you've missed quite a lot of the crash the AI features
23:06:33 <Rubidium> or the leave the level crossing light turned on feature
23:07:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: it's one of the remnants from "let people play the original game" policy that was in effect for a long time
23:07:09 <avdg> bugs are also features at some point ;-)
23:07:13 <Rubidium> or the get easy money by building long tunnel feature
23:07:35 <Samu> oh, fixing bugs is common sense
23:07:50 <Samu> at least most believe so
23:08:18 <b_jonas> like fixing the water build cheat bug, sure
23:09:02 <Samu> when I played ttd I didn't know there was cheats
23:09:06 <Rubidium> Samu: point is, aircraft transporting oil was reported as a bug. Ergo, it's a fixed bug
23:09:13 <b_jonas> maybe there should be an easily reachable big switch in the gui that sets the options to full compatibility versus more fun
23:09:39 <SmatZ> [00:08:41] <Rubidium> Samu: point is, aircraft transporting oil was reported as a bug. Ergo, it's a fixed bug <== I really can't say I like that change :p
23:09:50 <Samu> I can't refit aircraft to oil in ttd either
23:09:54 <SmatZ> that should be done by a newgrf :p
23:10:11 <Samu> i said I can refit aircraft to everything except oil and mail
23:10:14 <SmatZ> (I know it wasn't possible at that time)
23:10:29 <Rubidium> SmatZ: build depot, destroy depot -> cheap water clearing; build an ownership thingy and it doesn't flood
23:10:52 <b_jonas> SmatZ: in ttd, when you destroy a ship depot or a dock, you get soon to be flooded dry squares instead of water. this allows you to raise water much more cheaply.
23:13:04 <Samu> refiting cargo ship is exactly equal to ttd
23:13:46 <__ln__> err wtf, i just accidentally found a key shortcut to play the clips backwards in quicktime.
23:13:57 <b_jonas> even though I consider it a cheat
23:14:08 <b_jonas> but I cheated filthily by blocking AIs too
23:14:26 <b_jonas> okay, I still do that
23:14:31 <SmatZ> __ln__: interesting, with all those p-frames
23:15:46 <Samu> ttd version i have is 2.01.119
23:16:19 <Samu> maybe different version of ttd use different refits
23:17:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the aircraft refit things is a game-rebalancing feature
23:17:11 <planetmaker> that's confusing indeed
23:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: yes, aircraft seemed to be overpowered.
23:19:09 <Samu> even at 1/4 of normal cargo?
23:19:09 <b_jonas> you don't enable the fast aircrafts option, do you?
23:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't use aircraft usually.
23:20:27 <Samu> hmm another little difference
23:20:46 <Samu> the capacity factor on refit include total units passenger + mail
23:21:00 <Samu> on ttd it's only passenger
23:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that i know nothing of.
23:22:04 <Samu> ok an example, let me build an airport again, sec
23:23:17 <Samu> it's normal cargo is 65 + 8
23:23:32 <Samu> when refitting to goods, which is available on both ttd and ottd
23:23:48 <Samu> it becomes 32 crates of goods in ttd and 36 on ottd
23:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you should put this stuff on a wiki page. "differences in TTD and OpenTTD"
23:27:22 <b_jonas> that's exactly what I thought
23:27:32 <b_jonas> then if someone wants to work on compatibility, he can do it
23:27:48 <Samu> well we were talking about planes being too good
23:28:07 <Samu> seems like ottd planes carry a bit more, heh
23:28:14 <__ln__> oh no, the discussion is drifting from phonetics towards some transportation game
23:30:09 <AveiMil> planetmaker, does FEAT_CARGOS contain all the cargo's for all climate sets??
23:30:34 <planetmaker> what is feat_cargos?
23:31:13 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_CARGOS, Oil, 3) { property { penalty_lowerbound: 40; single_penalty_length: 255; pricefactor: 6192; } }
23:31:46 <planetmaker> you'll have to use the cargo labels
23:31:50 <AveiMil> but I just wonder what the proper Id's are for the various sets as in those tables they have the same ids
23:32:09 <planetmaker> Oil as you quote certainly won't work
23:33:02 <planetmaker> but I don't know. I've not yet used that feature
23:34:12 <planetmaker> probably. But only of the default cargos
23:34:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo
23:38:34 <AveiMil> can't make any sense of that site
23:38:51 <AveiMil> do you know how I can do this?
23:39:00 <AveiMil> <@planetmaker> you'll have to use the cargo labels <- how do you mean?
23:40:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21179 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#4201] (r69): if the main toolbar's location is configurable, why isn't the statusbar's location configurable?
23:42:08 <AveiMil> yeah I linked you that page further up
23:42:22 <avdg> lol @very old commit reference
23:42:29 <AveiMil> but the ID's for temparte/artic/tropic repeat
23:42:40 <AveiMil> so how do I know what ID is what beyond 'Valuables'?
23:43:39 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_CARGOS, Valuables, 10) <- can you use the 'Name' instead of the 10 there?
23:45:42 <Yexo> no, you check in which climate you are to determine which cargos are in which slot
23:45:53 <Yexo> and even that isn't enough if you want it to work with industry grf sets
23:46:41 <AveiMil> so when I choose tropic it just replaces "Valuables" with diamonds
23:47:02 <AveiMil> so I onyl need to defeine 11 cargo types for all the default climate sets
23:48:13 <AveiMil> Valuabes = Gold = Diamonds = Plastic
23:48:25 <planetmaker> I take the diamond part there, please
23:48:57 <AveiMil> looks like that's how it works
23:49:07 <AveiMil> different names, same stats for each climate
23:49:50 <Samu> i can't refit manley morell
23:52:51 <Samu> in this case, what you did was adding a feature :)
23:55:22 <xiong> AveiMil, I hope you are taking FIRS into account. I wouldn't want to play without FIRS.
23:58:05 <Samu> Passengers production at Oilrig decreased 34%, lol
23:59:34 <xiong> AveiMil, Um, something-industry-replacement-set.
continue to next day ⏵
