IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-11-10
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00:00:11 <SmatZ> I hope it doesn't mean "either 3.3 or 4.0 warns!"
00:00:13 <Eddi|nichZuHause> the actual line starts at the second 16 bytes
00:00:30 <SmatZ> (const void*)(ptrdiff_t)(def)
00:00:36 <SmatZ> actually the commit adding that case
00:03:51 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i'm hoping one of those 16 starting bytes is a length of some kind
00:03:58 <Rubidium> good, then fix it like we "fixed" PR38509 and some of the other warnings
00:04:40 <SmatZ> Rubidium: there are more warnings given by various compilers, should I mention them all?
00:05:05 <SmatZ> mostly "variable may be used uninitialized"
00:05:15 <Rubidium> that's already "fixed"
00:05:40 <Rubidium> "Versions 4.1 and earlier give bogus warnings about uninitialised variables."
00:05:52 <Eddi|nichZuHause> Heureka! i think i found it
00:06:02 <Rubidium> although icc might now be completely and utterly broken
00:06:11 <Eddi|nichZuHause> first 4 bytes (little endian) seem to be length
00:06:56 <SmatZ> I tested clang today (after few weeks)
00:07:01 <SmatZ> it still gives the same errors
00:07:12 <SmatZ> doesn't seem there had been any progress...
00:07:24 <Eddi|nichZuHause> now, how do i make python to read 4 bytes and turn it into an int
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00:25:19 <Eddi|nichZuHause> answer to my previous question: integer= struct.unpack('l',string), where string=file.read(4)
00:25:34 <Eddi|nichZuHause> where 'l' has the same meaning as in printf
00:34:01 <AveiMil> Anyone have any late game saves they've played with inflation OFF?
01:39:24 <Eddi|nichZuHause> suppose somewhere within '65', '9d', '2b', 'cf', '6a', 'c5', 'e3', '40' is stored a date, and the date is 2010-11-09 08:05:27. how would the conversion work?
01:40:30 <Eddi|nichZuHause> e3 and c5 don't look very 7bit-y
01:41:10 <SmatZ> 7bit numbers, merged to 8 bits
01:41:20 <SmatZ> but it doesn't look like that...
01:42:17 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 10 16 29127000
01:42:17 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 1BC7158
01:43:06 <SmatZ> there number seems to be too long :)
01:43:08 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i need to fetch another date, i guess...
01:43:27 <SmatZ> 4 bytes would be enough to express it in posix time
01:43:45 <SmatZ> try to fetch 2010-11-09 08:05:28
01:43:49 <Eddi|nichZuHause> yes, but it doesn't look like posix time
01:43:54 <SmatZ> or other dates changed by 1unit
01:44:35 <Eddi|nichZuHause> the last (highest) 3 bytes stay constant in the time frame observed
01:44:45 <Eddi|nichZuHause> the 4th highest slowly counts upwards
01:44:57 <Eddi|nichZuHause> but faster than daily
01:45:41 <SmatZ> so it could be some nanoseconds
01:48:43 <SmatZ> @base 10 16 1289289927000000000
01:48:43 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 11E47A5B8F530600
01:49:18 <Eddi|nichZuHause> 'b1', 'e4', '17', 'cb', '6b', 'c5', 'e3', '40' <-- this one is 8:50:39
01:50:14 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 16 10 40e4c56bcb17e4b1
01:50:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 4676079379876930737
01:50:42 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 16 10 40e4c56acf2b9d65
01:50:42 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 4676079375650364773
01:51:02 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @calc 4676079375650364773-4676079379876930737
01:51:02 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: -4229999616
01:51:33 <SmatZ> @calc 462968841393-458742275429
01:51:46 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 1558468.27581
01:52:06 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i'm not following your calculation
01:52:37 <SmatZ> in 2712 seconds, the value changed by 4226565964
01:52:45 <SmatZ> if I did everything correctly
01:53:00 <Eddi|nichZuHause> why is my calculation 4229999616 then?
01:53:16 <SmatZ> or rounding done by DorpsGek :p
01:53:52 <SmatZ> the numbers should be the same
01:54:24 <Eddi|nichZuHause> so, rounding...
01:55:12 <Eddi|nichZuHause> but each second being increased by 1558468 doesn't make a lot of sense
01:56:52 <SmatZ> @calc 7702308017-46425415013
01:57:39 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 16 10 6bf3dd1bb0
01:57:39 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 463652854704
01:58:11 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @calc 463652854704-462968841393
01:58:11 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 684013311
01:58:45 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @calc (463652854704-462968841393)/1558468.27581
01:58:45 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 438.901016862
01:59:08 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @calc 439/60
01:59:08 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 7.31666666667
01:59:09 <SmatZ> [02:50:40] <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 462968841393
01:59:10 <SmatZ> [02:50:57] <SmatZ> @base 16 10 6acf2b9d65
01:59:24 <SmatZ> it's not working at all
01:59:26 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @calc (439/60-7)*60
01:59:26 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 19.0
01:59:52 <Eddi|nichZuHause> hm, it's off by about 10 seconds in this time frame
02:00:56 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i need to check this again...
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02:09:34 <SmatZ> if 1558468 ticks is one second, then the whole number represents ~2283434 years
02:10:04 <SmatZ> probably the more significant bits are not important
02:11:53 <SmatZ> those numbers don't look like BCD
02:12:01 <SmatZ> (I haven't read the whole article yet)
02:12:49 <Eddi|nichZuHause> it's the format received by radio clocks, it encodes stuff like switch from summer to winter time
02:13:43 <SmatZ> it sure sounds interesting :)
02:13:50 <SmatZ> I am just too tired to think now...
02:13:59 <SmatZ> let me know if you solve that problem :)
02:14:10 <SmatZ> my BNC should record everything from this channel
02:14:13 <SmatZ> good night Eddi|nichZuHause
02:15:35 <ccfreak2k> NIST's towers broadcast using BCD.
02:16:02 <ccfreak2k> Actually I'm specifically reading up on the DCF77 because I intend to build a receiver into one of my projects.
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04:07:07 <Eddi|nichZuHause> damn, this supposed time stamp really has only vague correlation with the displayed time...
04:46:20 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 16 10 4b78fc
04:46:20 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 4946172
04:46:39 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 16 10 7c048d
04:46:40 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 8127629
04:47:12 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 16 2 7c
04:47:12 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 1111100
04:47:17 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 16 2 49
04:47:17 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 1001001
04:47:38 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 10 2 1024
04:47:38 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 10000000000
04:48:22 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 2 10 110101
04:48:22 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 53
04:49:55 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 2 10 11010100000
04:49:55 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 1696
04:51:10 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @calc (8127629-4946172)/2048
04:51:10 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 1553.44580078
04:52:45 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @calc (33+60*(31+60*15))*2048
04:52:45 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 114468864
04:53:14 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @base 10 16 114468864
04:53:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 6D2A800
04:53:46 <Eddi|nichZuHause> these are completely absurd numbers...
04:53:52 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i should give up.
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08:55:30 <Amis> Is it ok that the rating of cargoes stops changing at 28% even if nothing takes those cargoes for years?
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09:00:31 <Amis> I mean, the cargo should totally disappear after a while but it just stays on 28%. First it goes down to .. like 15% then goes up to 28% and stucks
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09:09:58 <Amis> So now Ill have passangers at my forest till the end of time
09:11:58 <Terkhen> good morning planetmaker
09:12:38 <Terkhen> Amis: I was talking about ratings; if you don't pick up passengers for some time at a station they should stop appearing IIRC
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09:48:32 <SmatZ> hello Terkhen and planetmaker :)
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10:19:06 <AveiMil> Okey, someone help spoon feed me please? Comparing the train SH'8P (Steam) and the Floss'47 (Diesel). Stats versus Stats: 144 km/h/1600HP/504kN (TE) on the steam train versus 160 km/h/2580hp/332kN (TE)
10:19:44 <AveiMil> If you consider the game mechanics, what's the more powerfull train? One train has more HP and the other has more TE. How does it relate. is TE all that matter?
10:20:08 <Rubidium> TE is the maximum amount of "power" you can transfer onto the track (IIRC)
10:20:19 <Rubidium> i.e. applying more power would make the wheels go spinning
10:21:12 <AveiMil> so what does that mean in regards to the diesel train having more horse power but less TE? Does it mean it can't get the full use out of that HP compared to the steam train?
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10:22:10 <AveiMil> ""the tractive force delivered at full throttle notch (power) after the traction system has heated to maximum"
10:22:43 <AveiMil> so at full throttle at 1600HP the steam train delivers more TE (relative to it's HP?) than the desiel train at full throttle with 2580HP does?
10:23:27 <AveiMil> or there's no "relative" about it and it simply means the steam engine can pull more than the diesel. Period.
10:27:02 <planetmaker> [11:20] <Rubidium> TE is the maximum amount of "power" you can transfer onto the track (IIRC) <-- actually it's a force, but yes
10:27:34 <planetmaker> it's the force a train can apply in order to sustain or start movement
10:28:49 <AveiMil> so I can look at the TE for both engines and confiedntly say "this train can pull more cargo becasue it has a higher TE" or is it relative to the HP of the engine?
10:29:12 <AveiMil> basically I'm just confused as to what the TE number means in practical sense in terms of the game engine/mechanics
10:29:36 <planetmaker> at higher speeds power is the limiting factor. At lower the TE
10:29:55 <Eddi|nichZuHause> you need HP to pull a fast train, and you need kN to pull a slow train
10:30:41 <AveiMil> to a low kN = bad accelleartion?
10:31:03 <norbert79> planetmaker: Nice tool
10:31:20 <planetmaker> it's peter1138 's tool :-)
10:31:38 <norbert79> Still a nice one :)
10:31:39 <AveiMil> The Floss'47 diesel will acccellerate a large train slower than the steam train, is that what it means?
10:31:47 <planetmaker> AveiMil: it obviously depends upon the overall weight of the train. But generally, yes
10:32:05 <AveiMil> more weight = slower accelleration
10:32:23 <AveiMil> though, does more weight give higher TE? weight pressing down on the tracks or something
10:32:33 <planetmaker> TE is a property of the engine alone
10:32:52 <AveiMil> yeah sorry, I use "train" when I mean engine
10:32:56 <peter1138> planetmaker, TE coefficient is a property of the engine alone
10:32:57 <planetmaker> peter1138: but not ingame
10:33:08 <planetmaker> peter1138: I'm saying exactly that
10:33:13 <Eddi|nichZuHause> yes, more weight on the driven axles increases max_te
10:33:46 <peter1138> most high TE coef engines don't take cargo, of course
10:33:48 <planetmaker> Eddi|nichZuHause: but not ingame. There it's 'just' an additional property which is defined
10:34:39 <AveiMil> So for a practical example, how do you compare the SH'8P (Steam) and the Floss'47 Diesel?
10:34:45 <Eddi|nichZuHause> you have two "sources" of TE that shouldn't be confused: the "max_te" that results from the weight of the engine, and the "effective TE" that results from the power (te = power/speed)
10:34:50 <planetmaker> I build both and compare, AveiMil
10:34:51 <AveiMil> Stats: 144 km/h/1600HP/504kN (TE) on the steam train versus 160 km/h/2580hp/332kN (TE)
10:35:04 <AveiMil> So you don't look at the numbers and say
10:35:09 <AveiMil> "ahh, for this task I should pick that train"
10:35:10 <Eddi|nichZuHause> for slow (i.e. freight) trains, you usually have max_te < power/weight
10:35:18 <planetmaker> Well, I do. I've some hand-wavy feeling for it. Both are powerful
10:35:32 <Eddi|nichZuHause> and for fast (i.e. passenger/express) trains, you have max_te > power/weight
10:35:36 <peter1138> all you need to do is follow MB's realism guide :D
10:36:09 <planetmaker> And then you need to talk to Belugas in order to get set straight again ;-)
10:36:11 <Eddi|nichZuHause> power/speed in both unequations
10:36:15 <AveiMil> do you mean power divided by weight?
10:36:35 <AveiMil> or listing them as seperate factors
10:36:40 <Eddi|nichZuHause> as long as you have max_te < power/speed, the extra power is wasted
10:36:48 <Eddi|nichZuHause> no, i meen power divided by speed
10:37:06 <Eddi|nichZuHause> power in kW, and speed in m/s, preferably
10:38:17 <Eddi|nichZuHause> kW/(m/s) = kN
10:38:23 <AveiMil> so back to the practical example, would you then say taht the Diesel engine is more suited for passenger trains and the steam is more suited for cargo trains (coal)?
10:38:41 <AveiMil> or does it matter how much cargo you intend to pull?
10:38:47 <Eddi|nichZuHause> although the values are probably unrealistic
10:39:07 <planetmaker> I'd take the faster for pax and the slower, more TE for freight
10:40:30 <AveiMil> BUt that's only when you have the option realistic model on, without that the diesel train beats the steam train at everything?
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10:43:22 <AveiMil> hmm, see I went through and "balanced" all the trains cost/running cost yesterday
10:43:52 <AveiMil> And I basically just made up a formulae
10:44:43 <AveiMil> (HP2/HP1 + Speed2/Speed1 + Weight1/Weight2)/2,5 = Cost Factor
10:45:02 <AveiMil> where the "1" engine was the cheapest engine, like the Kirby Paul
10:45:26 <AveiMil> so purchase costs and running cost will go up relative to their increase in power/speed/weight
10:45:47 <AveiMil> but since I did that without thinking abut the realistic accell model.
10:45:53 <AveiMil> I'm thinking it's going to be off.
10:47:06 <AveiMil> Because the Floss'47 diesel ends up nearly 50% more expensive than the SH'8P
10:47:53 <AveiMil> but if I balance with TE in mind, it'll kinda be off again when you don't have realistic model on
10:48:56 <AveiMil> perhaps I should just revert to the default setup
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11:16:59 <AveiMil> Nahhh, when testing the Floss'47 Diesel appears to beat SH'8P Steam on both flat and hilly terrain easily.
11:17:14 <AveiMil> So why on earth is the SH'8P more expensive than teh Floss'47 with the original costs.
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11:19:24 <AveiMil> even with 20 armoured wagons the diesel starts pulling away
11:20:14 <SmatZ> I think even the weakest engine in game will
11:20:42 <planetmaker> 460 tons + engine weight
11:20:53 <planetmaker> friction coefficient is about 0.03?
11:21:10 <planetmaker> --> anything more than 13.8 kN TE will do
11:21:20 <planetmaker> valuables don't weigh much
11:21:46 <AveiMil> any way to fill my wagons without having to do it the normal way?
11:21:48 <SmatZ> empty valuables wagon weights most :)
11:22:22 <AveiMil> that's why I tested with those
11:22:56 <AveiMil> are you saying you need a rediclously amount of cargo before TE matters much?
11:22:59 <SmatZ> [12:20:44] <planetmaker> --> anything more than 13.8 kN TE will do <== kirby paul tank has 139, 10 times more :)
11:23:29 <SmatZ> planetmaker: what about uphill slope?
11:23:56 <planetmaker> SmatZ: there of course you need more TE ;-) - but IIRC it doesn't matter much for the slopes
11:23:58 <Eddi|nichZuHause> simply add the slope to the friction coefficient
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11:29:25 <AveiMil> Tested with 14 full Coal wagons
11:29:34 <AveiMil> the Floss pulls ahead still
11:33:27 <planetmaker> AveiMil: try with a freight multiplicator at high settings. And full wagons
11:35:44 <AveiMil> what's a high setting?
11:35:51 <Eddi|nichZuHause> you do try in the nightly, right?
11:36:38 <Eddi|nichZuHause> in the stable, acceleration is too fast
11:37:15 <Terkhen> AveiMil: you should try in nightlies, the realistic acceleration has changed a lot since stable
11:37:23 <Terkhen> also, road vehicles have access to realistic acceleration too
11:38:08 <AveiMil> when will that be released to the general playing public?
11:38:27 <AveiMil> I mean when is the next stable
11:39:34 <AveiMil> planetmaker, with freight weight multiplier set to 34
11:39:42 <AveiMil> the steam strain accellerates faster
11:39:52 <AveiMil> but the diesel eventually catches up and pulls a head
11:40:16 <planetmaker> that's the difference between TE and power ;-)
11:40:40 <AveiMil> but all in all, the Diesel engine is superior to the steam engine
11:40:51 <AveiMil> so it makes sene for the newer diesel engine to be more expensive
11:40:54 <planetmaker> TE 20 and 10000000 power can go insanely fast. But will take forever to accelerate
11:41:10 <planetmaker> while TE 1000000 and power 20 will accelerate insanely fast. To a speed of 2 km/h
11:41:45 <AveiMil> Ok, taht's a better explanation
11:41:50 <AveiMil> why dindt you just say taht in the first place :D
11:42:35 <planetmaker> because most trains are in the middle where it's not that clear ;-)
11:42:55 <AveiMil> you mean engines? HAH! you did it too
11:43:50 <AveiMil> overall, would you agree or disagree that the Floss should be more expensive than the SH'8P?
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11:54:16 <AveiMil> lol I added a 3 tile hill
11:54:23 <AveiMil> and the two trains pulling 24 full coal wagons
11:54:30 <AveiMil> basically just came to a halt at the top
11:54:46 <AveiMil> nuding forward, it's gonna take years to get up
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14:13:25 * norbert79 is wondering how active Owen might be on IRC... :)
14:14:44 <norbert79> Btw, this might be very offtopic, and a very sily question, but does anyone of you have some sources for SWAT related materials, like procedure documents, handsings, such stuff... I am just trying to understand how these special operation teams work.
14:15:18 <norbert79> I just found very general material on the net, nothing specific
14:17:49 <norbert79> Guess this was a very specific question, which is not in interest around here :) Oh well... Can't blame me for trying :)
14:22:40 <planetmaker> norbert79: there are more than one Owen here ;-)
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14:23:01 <norbert79> planetmaker: :) Didn't know... :)
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15:00:02 <orudge> norbert79: am I the Owen to whom you refer? :p
15:00:26 <norbert79> orudge: Yes, you are :D Well, not so inactive after all, as I see :)
15:02:32 <orudge> I'm often around, but not necessarily actively talking
15:02:39 <orudge> a highlight usually gets my attention eventually
15:02:46 <norbert79> orudge: I see, I was just wondering :)
15:03:01 <norbert79> orudge: Nah, didn't want to highlight, thats annoying without a reason
15:04:07 <planetmaker> omfg... how many postings will this spammer continue to post :-(
15:05:02 <orudge> "Owen" highlights me, as well as orudge
15:05:12 <orudge> orudge! "extra-highlights" me, though
15:05:21 <orudge> planetmaker: another spammer on the forums?
15:05:25 <orudge> I already banned two today D:
15:05:31 <planetmaker> yes. every minute one for an hour or so
15:05:40 <planetmaker> so ... 2 to 3 pages of cleaning needed
15:06:49 <norbert79> I think that captcha sooner or later needs to be included, or at least that other capctha, which asks you generic tasks, like "How many is 5+7"
15:07:07 <orudge> norbert79: well, the thing is, a lot of these spammers are actual people
15:07:13 <orudge> although, there are no doubt still some bots
15:07:18 <norbert79> Are you sure on that?
15:07:32 <norbert79> I am just asking, since I have seen some very tricky bots
15:07:41 <norbert79> you couldn't tell the difference
15:07:42 <planetmaker> orudge: what makes you believe they're people?
15:07:58 <norbert79> planetmaker: There are indeed hired SPAMmers, mostly in South Korea and China
15:08:01 <planetmaker> the intelligence shown there seems quite programmable to me
15:08:02 <orudge> genereal reports from the Internet
15:08:07 <norbert79> planetmaker: They are payed by ammount of messages sent
15:08:31 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V :)... Just like the nigerian spams, those were sent by hand too!
15:09:10 <planetmaker> well, I know how I *could* do it. I still think it's moderately easy to programme that. The most difficult thing is the account creation. But that's feasable
15:09:13 <norbert79> well, some plain captcha, like those new ones might do the trick
15:09:21 <planetmaker> The captchas are not really secure
15:09:42 <norbert79> planetmaker: Depends what technique that specific captche is using
15:09:47 <planetmaker> I've not done OCR, but enough image processing to tell that it can be done
15:10:12 <norbert79> but there are different methods for Captche
15:10:22 <norbert79> and for registration the most plain one is being used
15:10:48 <planetmaker> of course. But as a spammer, I make a list of forum: method: bot and then off I go with a script
15:10:48 <orudge> which is perhaps not the most complex
15:10:58 <orudge> but is meant to be reasonably decent
15:11:08 <orudge> even if a human registers, they can then give the account to a bot
15:11:12 <orudge> which is probably what happens
15:11:16 <planetmaker> or like that. Easier
15:11:17 <norbert79> planetmaker: It's not always a screipt, sometimes it's a 'macro'
15:11:28 <planetmaker> norbert79: for me that's the same ;-)
15:11:57 <norbert79> planetmaker: Lets not go into details on this one, but there are important differences ;-)
15:12:21 <planetmaker> actually I'm curious now :-)
15:12:46 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, scripts are not GUI dependant, where Macros are mostly used under GUI enviroment
15:14:11 <norbert79> Like I can script an OpenTTD server, but using a Macro, I can re-record a movement of a mouse :) I have seen some 'automatic' installer tools working like that
15:14:18 <norbert79> Very stupid method I msut say
15:14:34 <norbert79> but sometimes the easiest solution
15:19:06 <planetmaker> yeah... I'd just have used those words as synonymous. But ok - thanks for clarifying that :-)
15:20:27 <norbert79> planetmaker: Don't take my word as hard-core facts, but at least thats my understanding, since scripts can be written under tons of languages, like BASH, but Macro's are always connected with something under GUI enviroment
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16:00:58 <planetmaker> orudge: you could ban another one...
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16:26:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21126 /trunk/src/strings_type.h: -Codechange: increase the limit of languages OpenTTD can know about to the limit imposed by the NewGRF specs as we're already quite close to the limit; less than 10% from the limit with the currently translated languages
16:32:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21127 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Codechange: change the max gender constant's name's style to the style used by the max case constant's name
16:32:56 * dih is about to fly to brazil
16:33:51 <dih> anyway see you in 3 weeks :)
16:34:10 <Rubidium> now go and don't bother us with OpenTTD stuff for the next 3 weeks :)
16:39:19 <Belugas> we'll keep you cake pieces :)
16:41:21 <Rubidium> planetmaker: yes, we keep the pieces
16:41:41 <Rubidium> although only in a digital format/approximation
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17:01:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21128 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#4208]: Crash when disabling static NewGRFs (when joining/starting a server)
17:02:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21129 /trunk/src/lang/ (47 files): -Fix [FS#4208-ish]: Crash when showing the "disabled static NewGRF for desync purposes" message
17:03:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21130 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#4208-ish]: under some circumstances static (disabled/influencing) NewGRFs weren't properly ignored which could cause a desync
17:04:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21131 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: show a (debug) warning when the GRF ID of a NewGRF differs between the file scan and other stages
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17:28:36 <Rubidium> the guys "designing" that route, the guys building that route or the guys running trains on that route
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17:29:25 <avdg> that train looks very small :p
17:30:45 <Terkhen> probably all of them are guilty of being crazy
17:32:06 <avdg> even provided with a googlemaps link (hidden details)
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17:37:10 <SmatZ> nation should care about their intelligence, no matter how rich they are :/
17:43:47 * Hirundo guesses no one ever tried setting train property 22 (visual effect) to 0
17:44:38 <Rubidium> avdg: missing links?
17:45:17 <avdg> like the one for reactOS
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17:47:47 <planetmaker> actually. Yes. I did that...
17:48:00 <Rubidium> planetmaker: probably a value that blows up in some way
17:48:36 <planetmaker> At least... I think, I did...
17:48:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21132 /trunk/src/ (strgen/strgen.h strings.cpp): -Codechange: unify the language file version/validity checking
17:49:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21133 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_func.h): -Add: function to check the validity of a string (without modifying it)
17:49:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21134 /trunk/src/ (strgen/strgen.cpp strings.cpp): -Change: perform some more stringent validity checking on the language files
17:52:45 <planetmaker> even though I meanwhile set it to 0x0A for better view
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18:18:25 <Hirundo> planetmaker: 0 (when set via action0) is taken as a default value which is ignored, instead of "default effect, 8 units in front of the vehicle centre"
18:18:56 <planetmaker> oh. Yes, I didn't set the property via action0
18:24:18 <Hirundo> I doubt that it is possible to change/fix this, though, without breaking existing grfs
18:28:56 <darkomen> i can't DL the OpenGFX, OpenSFX and OpenMSX from the installer with my stupid VPN, i have to do that manually :/
18:29:22 <Belugas> have you survived my patch breaking?
18:30:51 <planetmaker> Hirundo: there's a difference between not having declared action0, property 22 and having it declared as 0. That should be detectable.
18:31:13 <Belugas> was not much of work, i am sure :)
18:32:28 <Hirundo> planetmaker: Setting the engine class (steam/diesel) acts as an implicit default
18:33:14 <Hirundo> Re-defining a wagon as engine implies a default effect as well
18:33:49 <Hirundo> There's quite some hairy stuff involved :)
18:34:29 <planetmaker> yes, sure it does. But that doesn't mean that treating value 0 properly means breaking these assumptions
18:34:48 <planetmaker> And... there's about two newgrfs which need checking: Pikkas and WAS ;-)
18:35:39 <Hirundo> WAS? the aircraft set?
18:47:15 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
18:51:04 <Belugas> mmh... a software that let me write guitar partitions and generate a midi file out of it...
18:51:09 <Hirundo> aircraft have no visual effects?!
18:52:42 <Belugas> they don't ? in what sens?
18:52:54 <Belugas> there is smoke when they are broken, i believe
18:53:03 <Belugas> or are we talking about something else?
18:53:04 <Hirundo> That's not influenced by grfs
18:54:03 <planetmaker> IIRC they don't, Hirundo
18:56:14 * Belugas wonders what type of visual effects can one expect from a plane
18:56:24 <Belugas> condensation trail maybe?
18:56:47 <Hirundo> planetmaker: In principle, it's possible to use a different default value instead of 0 and check for that value later
18:58:36 * Belugas imagines that visual effect along with a sound effect for supoersonic birds ingame :D
18:59:17 <planetmaker> quite a nice one ^^:-)
18:59:33 <Rubidium> it shows basically all visual effects I can think of
19:01:14 <planetmaker> actually most intriguing is IMHO that it shows the shockwave at each place the cross-section of the plane in flight direction increases by a large amount :-)
19:02:37 * andythenorth is switching to TTDPatch
19:02:37 <Belugas> that would be fun to code
19:04:29 <darkomen> OTTD is coded into C++ language?
19:05:23 <Rubidium> what makes you think that?
19:05:45 <darkomen> i just ask, i dont think anything
19:06:02 <darkomen> but i just started to learn C++...
19:06:47 <Rubidium> it's more a C/C++ hybrid
19:06:58 <Rubidium> (from a C++ purist point of view)
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19:07:15 <Hirundo> "OpenTTD is a fully open-sourced reimplementation of TTD, written in C++, boasting improved gameplay and many new features."
19:07:35 <andythenorth> 'improved gameplay' is apparently not true
19:07:41 <andythenorth> the locks are wrong for starters :P
19:07:50 <frosch123> damn, just wanted to say that
19:08:47 <andythenorth> OpenTTD doesn't have even basic gameplay features :D
19:08:51 <Belugas> andythenorth, stop playing ttdp!
19:09:03 <andythenorth> Belugas: I have yet to start :P
19:09:12 <andythenorth> first I have to install Windows on my Mac
19:09:20 <Belugas> yeah... it's prototypically complex to run
19:09:22 <Rubidium> andythenorth: they may be wrong, but you can at least let ships change their heightlevel. And that is not possible in TTD, so it's an improvement to gameplay
19:09:24 <andythenorth> then I have to recode all my grfs
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19:09:53 * Belugas nods and nods and nods
19:10:00 <SmatZ> there are many completely unrealistic games with perfect gameplay
19:10:18 <andythenorth> it says on the forums
19:10:28 <planetmaker> it is on the internet. It must be true
19:10:56 <andythenorth> TTDPatch offers better way
19:11:06 <Rubidium> planetmaker: actually, "God" wrote it
19:11:23 <darkomen> and better updates? :o
19:11:51 <Rubidium> darkomen: yes, it's impressively stable as it didn't need a new release for many years
19:12:09 <andythenorth> we are such children :P
19:12:14 <andythenorth> me especially :D
19:12:23 <andythenorth> is there a smoking pony yet?
19:12:33 <planetmaker> just smoking guns, I'm afraid
19:12:41 <planetmaker> luckily not ingame :-)
19:12:51 <planetmaker> though... hm... salami :-)
19:12:59 <Belugas> and luckily not on forums either
19:12:59 * planetmaker is off for dinner
19:13:36 * andythenorth is waiting for dinner to be off to him
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19:14:00 <darkomen> anyone know to code in ADA95?
19:14:33 <Hirundo> I'm sure *someone* does... but "Don't ask to ask, just ask"
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19:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> nobody can program in ADA, because it's a language specifically designed to not let the programmer write actual programs.
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19:17:42 <darkomen> It's the only language that i know :/
19:17:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, Chuck Norris can program in ADA.
19:18:07 <SmatZ> isn't there an ADA compiler written in ADA?
19:18:31 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
19:18:34 <frosch123> every language has a compiler written in itself
19:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's a feature missing in HQ9+
19:21:08 <andythenorth> why are we talking about brainfuck languages :P we should be fixing locks
19:21:35 <andythenorth> also, I have to redraw FISH so the big boats fit within the lock gates that need adding
19:21:37 <Belugas> from what I believe, ada is quite close to pascal
19:21:46 <Belugas> maybe not close enough to be usefull...
19:22:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, syntactically it's close to pascal
19:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but semantically it is very strict
19:22:43 * andythenorth should stay out of the suggestions forum
19:22:58 <andythenorth> in four short years, I've gone from 'excited' about suggestions, to 'grumpy'
19:23:11 * andythenorth is getting old :|
19:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> if C/C++ is the american version of "freedom of speech", then ADA is the chinese version of "freedom of speech" ;)
19:23:54 <Belugas> yeah, syntax of ada is a bit more advanced
19:24:05 <darkomen> oh, now i know why my teachers teach me ADA95 :/
19:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "if people are free to say anything, people are saying a lot of crap"
19:24:38 <Belugas> does andythenorth suggests that the grumpy ones are actually old?
19:24:48 <Belugas> hey.. wait a minute...
19:25:08 <andythenorth> young = grumpy because not taken seriously
19:25:12 <andythenorth> middle = get stuff done
19:25:22 <andythenorth> old = grumpy with all the young ones stupid ideas
19:25:36 <andythenorth> basically everything useful is done by people aged 20-30
19:25:40 <andythenorth> the rest of us just moan
19:26:55 <Hirundo> if self not in range(20, 30): quit();
19:27:23 <frosch123> hmm, forgot the third thing
19:27:58 <Eddi|zuHause> NameError: self has no member __index__
19:28:09 * Rubidium wonders what "self"'s unit it
19:28:22 <Rubidium> is it a pointer, then being in the 20-30 range is quite unlikely
19:28:47 <Eddi|zuHause> everything in python is a dictionary.
19:29:10 * andythenorth guesses Hirundo is not aged 32d-48d
19:29:28 <Rubidium> is it in seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, decades, centuries, millenia then it's quite unlikely to match as well
19:29:51 <andythenorth> self.age().years()
19:30:20 <SmatZ> [20:26:28] <Hirundo> if self not in range(20, 30): quit(); <== :D
19:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> given the multiverse theory, age is probably a fractal of dimension 1<x<2
19:31:44 * planetmaker just starts to moan as requested by andythenorth ;-)
19:31:45 <Belugas> self.age().KeepForgetting();
19:32:09 <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause, you're scary
19:33:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that means, comparing age with any 1-dimensional value will result in age being infinity
19:34:24 * SmatZ doesn't know "multiverse theory"
19:34:46 <SmatZ> would that mean comparing any time value with a number would be undefined?
19:35:53 * andythenorth just finished Iain Banks' latest book - multiverse heavy
19:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there are lots of fractals in the world, it doesn't explode because of that
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19:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> for example they have proven that the coastline of britain is a fractal
19:37:28 <Eddi|zuHause> (it has length (1D) infinity, but area (2D) 0)
19:37:33 <andythenorth> are locks fractal?
19:37:49 <Eddi|zuHause> anything man-made is usually not fractal ;)
19:38:33 <SmatZ> I would agree it has infinite length, but under fractal, I imagine something repetitive, or with a pattern
19:39:51 <Belugas> with a repetitive pattern :)
19:40:05 <frosch123> SmatZ: it starts repeating after driving one round around britain :p
19:40:59 <andythenorth> why is no-one fixing locks :(
19:41:09 <andythenorth> TTDPatch has had correct locks for *years*
19:41:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, correct would be locks with doors where only one ship can enter at a time
19:42:42 <frosch123> except small ships :p
19:42:59 <planetmaker> and where ships cannot turn ;-)
19:43:53 <SmatZ> long ships wouldn't be able to enter short locks
19:44:09 <frosch123> yeah, we need panama-class canals
19:45:24 <SmatZ> trucks on rails! ships on rails! planes on rails!
19:45:30 <SmatZ> let's use only trains :)
19:46:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i have suggested this before: a) ships may not occupy the same space, b) ships are classed in small,medium and large. where small ships work like road vehicles (occupy one half width tile), medium ships work like current ships (occupy one width tile), and large ships occupy 2 width tiles
19:46:10 <andythenorth> SmatZ: don't forget it is a train game
19:46:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, horse carriages have no place in this game :p
19:46:44 <__ln__> andythenorth: because it's easier to modify a game you don't have source code for than to modify one with source code.
19:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i don't think that's the reason. but the classification of "interesting" and "boring" problems are shifted
19:50:48 <Belugas> [14:46] <Eddi|zuHause> i have suggested this before: <-- mb, leave that body willya?
19:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: btw. self-similarity is a difficult concept. take for example the mandelbrot-set, no two parts of it are exactly the same.
19:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: actually, you quoted the wrong line for that...
19:52:07 <Eddi|zuHause> <Eddi|zuHause> yes, horse carriages have no place in this game :p <-- this one would be way better :p
19:52:38 <Belugas> well.. both are rather typical of the man :)
19:52:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the latter is practically a quote :)
19:53:27 * Rubidium wonders why Eddi hasn't implemented that suggestion yet
19:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i only implement one-liners ;)
19:54:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21135 /trunk/src/table/settings.h: -Fix (r19870): silencing gcc 3.3 warnings caused gcc 4.0 to warn
19:54:35 <andythenorth> Quirky Industry Replacement Set
19:55:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you should change the GRF-ID while at it, just to annoy he-whose-name-we-should-not-say :p
19:55:39 <andythenorth> he's been good enough to support my set
19:55:46 <andythenorth> albeit with various sideways comments
19:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, those come with the package. take it or leave it :)
20:00:24 * andythenorth gets kicked by someone else's pony :|
20:16:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21136 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#4213]: bridge speed limits should apply to all wagons of a vehicle, not just the head of the vehicle
20:17:28 <avdg> ^ I think that fix would affect the gameplay
20:20:01 <Rubidium> ... when you play with non-articulated road vehicles and single engine wagonless non-articulated rail vehicles
20:20:22 <avdg> well, at least we have 1 more reason to use better bridges :p
20:20:49 <Rubidium> s/use better/not use/
20:21:45 * avdg was shocked when he saw v's tunnel junction at ps
20:23:10 <Belugas> you'll take longer to exit the bridge now :)
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20:24:11 <avdg> indeed it is, but I'm sure that many people would be suprised that that bug gets fixed
20:24:30 <Belugas> or even that there was a bug...
20:24:54 <Wolf01> make the fix a per user setting :D
20:24:54 <Belugas> hey... maybe it could be put on wiki, in the difference between ttdp and ottd...
20:25:31 <Wolf01> so you'll transform a bug into a feature
20:27:20 <Belugas> Add notion of moto per transaction
20:27:20 <Belugas> Translate SameAsPrimary payment host to actual gift card host
20:28:03 <Rubidium> Wolf01: I don't want to maintain thousands of settings
20:28:30 <Rubidium> (there are 2975 bug reports in the current tracker, and at least several hundreds in the old tracker)
20:29:07 <Wolf01> but the large part are "real" bugs
20:29:51 <Wolf01> this is a "realism" bug ;)
20:29:58 <Rubidium> not to mention the bugfixes that don't have a bug tracker entry associated with them
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20:32:15 * andythenorth wonders how much TE to give to a 930HP mining truck :P
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20:54:26 * andythenorth wonders how much TE to give to 600HP logging truck
20:54:33 <andythenorth> mostly they run downhill in RL...
20:55:24 <frosch123> does te matter? can you imagine them slipping?
20:55:42 <andythenorth> in game I want a big cool truck :P
20:55:58 <frosch123> just give 80% friction or whatever :)
20:56:12 <andythenorth> we should do RoadTypes
20:56:17 <andythenorth> then the surface can mod TE
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21:02:08 <frosch123> hmm, reading the suggestion forum is indeed weird... now some discuss that planecrashes shall affect passenger production... so, either they have not figured out that that is the behaviour of ttd since 15 years, or we broke it :p
21:03:14 <Belugas> the former is quite more likely
21:03:54 <Rubidium> frosch123: only since 0.4.0-ish
21:03:58 <frosch123> yeah,the code it still there. can't be bothered to test it then
21:04:04 <frosch123> Rubidium: really? :o
21:04:20 <avdg> or they discovered what happened to people with the A380 accident and wants that feature too in OpenTTD
21:04:57 * andythenorth wonders what TE to give the bulldozers
21:07:08 <Eddi|zuHause> max_te = power/max_speed
21:07:42 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Commit by dominik :: r1385 /trunk (aircraft_cmd.c lang/english.txt) (2005-01-05 13:15:27 UTC)
21:07:43 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Fix: [ 1095020 ] When all stations in an aircraft's order list are demolished, the plane eventually crashes (running out of fuel)
21:10:28 <__ln__> huh, does it still work like that? that's not realis...nice!
21:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i think someone made an image of hundreds of helicopters crashing simultaneously
21:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause> probably by blocking the airport and then destroying it
21:12:26 <frosch123> - // Crash the airplane. Remove all goods stored at the station. <- that code was also present before
21:13:09 <frosch123> it is also present in 0.1, so most likely in ttd
21:14:19 <__ln__> couldn't it go and find another airport before running out of fuel
21:14:42 * andythenorth wonders how the TE of a bulldozer compares to TE of a diesel locomotive
21:14:45 <avdg> it doesn't visit airports not listed on their orderlist
21:15:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the diesel locomotive hopelessly loses
21:15:55 <__ln__> avdg: well it should if the other option is to crash
21:15:58 <andythenorth> can't get the power to the ground?
21:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> steel on steel friction is ridiculously low. you wonder how trains ever got running.
21:16:25 <avdg> hmm, how would the player be warned then?
21:23:05 <andythenorth> bulldozers are not particularly high powered it seems
21:23:16 <andythenorth> compared to off-highway trucks
21:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't need to be, because they're typically not going very fast
21:25:20 * andythenorth wonders how much to cheat RL for gameplay effects :P
21:25:55 <frosch123> good point, we should build a lock where ships can drive through
21:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like the unimog pulling trains. it isn't particularly high powered, but it has an immense boost in traction due to the rubber tyres
21:26:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: gameplay-wise the original point of the bulldozers was that they would be slow, but maintain their speed on any grade
21:27:11 <andythenorth> to achieve that I have to cheat weight, TE or HP
21:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause> TE is the right thing, and it's not cheating, its physics.
21:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, the magic formula is TE = Power/Speed
21:29:20 <andythenorth> that comes out quite low
21:29:26 <andythenorth> what about co-efficient of friction?
21:32:06 <Wolf01> anybody really good with wikis? is it possible to include a signature automatically in a template?
21:32:45 <__ln__> i would assume that significantly depends on the wiki engine you are using
21:34:32 <Wolf01> I need to do something like {{t}} -> "blah blah - User"
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21:53:46 <__ln__> SmatZ: i can confirm that the warning is now gone.
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22:56:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21137 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix/revert-ish (r1385): station ratings weren't updated (anymore) after an aircraft crashed
23:13:49 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21138 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Introduce the concepts of frame and position in the tunnel / bridge entering code (Hirundo)
23:15:02 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21139 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Use the new 'frame' variable to handle trains entering or leaving a tunnel (Hirundo)
23:16:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21140 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Use the new 'frame' variable to handle road vehicles entering or leaving a tunnel (Hirundo)
23:16:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21141 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Use the new 'frame' variable for the bridge entry code as well (Hirundo)
23:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> so it actually was a bug...
23:22:53 *** JVassie_ has joined #openttd
23:43:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21142 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_bridge.cpp bridge.h tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: replace magic bridge length constants with proper constants (uni657)
23:52:17 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: nah, it's an omission
continue to next day ⏵
