IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-11-11
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00:22:25 <AveiMil> If I wanted make a new line with a piece of information on each train in the in-game GUI
00:22:28 <AveiMil> is taht possible via NewGRF?
00:22:50 <AveiMil> like where it says Power:
00:42:44 <lugo> AveiMil, i'm sure i've seen that in various train sets
00:44:10 <lugo> like for some locos, it had additional info on what it's to be used with and which 'model' it was
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02:13:13 <SmatZ> silly KDE/X stealing my Ctrl+Fn :x
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02:57:27 <supermop> so, I have a question regarding .nfo
03:02:46 <supermop> not sure if anyone that can heelp is on/awake, but I am having trouble with varaction 2
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07:44:24 <xiong> How was this station built? (http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Sharedepicterminus.png) -- When I try to build tunnels side-by-side, with level track between them, I run into difficulty. The level track is unsupported on both sides; it can't be shored up with embankments so as to remain level. Are those level tracks bridged?? I can't tell from the graphics set.
07:46:09 <xiong> I can duplicate that by bridging the level track, but very short bridges incur a severe penalty.
07:47:33 <xiong> I have also worked on a similar design in which, instead of alternating entries and exits, they are paired off. This is, at least, constructible.
07:51:34 <planetmaker> xiong: note that the tunnels there are NOT side-by-side
07:52:05 <planetmaker> and it's clearly visible that there are bridges involved
07:54:00 <xiong> The tunnels are on alternate tracks -- if you number the tracks from the appropriate side, the even tracks are tunnels, the odd tracks are level. That's what I meant by "side-by-side, with level track between them".
07:54:38 <xiong> It's not clearly visible to me that there are bridges. That's what I meant by "I can't tell from the graphics set."
07:55:14 <xiong> And I still don't see the point, due to the short bridge penalty.
07:56:23 <xiong> Pairing the entrances and exits -- that is, 1-2 entry, 3-4 exit, 5-6 entry, 7-8 exit and so on -- removes the necessity of bridges.
07:58:12 <Terkhen> good morning Rubidium
07:58:32 <planetmaker> hello Terkhen & Rubidium
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08:10:20 <xiong> I would have liked to understand what that guy had in mind.
08:12:58 <Qantourisc> xiong: when did he say it ?
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08:13:03 <Qantourisc> maybe i understand ?
08:13:49 <xiong> Qantourisc, I pasted in a link to a shot.
08:14:06 <Qantourisc> xiong: whats with the shot ?
08:14:31 <xiong> Um, rather than just blindly repeat myself, please check the scrollback and ask for clarification, which I'll be happy to provide, if I can.
08:14:48 <Qantourisc> when did you say it a few mins ago ?
08:15:06 <Qantourisc> but not reading :)
08:15:18 <Qantourisc> i'll check the last hour logs but no more without a timestamp
08:15:19 <xiong> Sorry; do you have scrollback?
08:15:55 <xiong> Not so far back, not at all. May have gone off your screen but it was just half an hour ago.
08:17:10 <Qantourisc> xiong: will you host a game or shall i ?
08:17:25 <Qantourisc> then we could sandbox it and see the problem ?
08:18:13 <xiong> Well, it's not dynamic. I just can't build that design without using very short bridges.
08:18:43 <xiong> ... which seems, to me, to make moot the advantage of tunnels on the other set of tracks.
08:19:03 <Qantourisc> xiong: the image proves you can use tunnels
08:19:04 <xiong> I can theorize all day about why he built what he built.
08:19:41 <Qantourisc> Do you wish to build the screenshot ?
08:19:42 <xiong> Qantourisc, Look closely. I can barely see it; the graphics set is unfamiliar to me. The tracks that don't tunnel are bridged -- level bridges, very short.
08:20:02 <Qantourisc> i see it perfectly
08:20:09 <Qantourisc> that's why i offerted to host a game...
08:20:42 <xiong> Sorry; I just don't seem to be making myself clear. I can duplicate that design, given the short bridges.
08:21:00 <Qantourisc> the image has NO bridges
08:21:10 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: it has.
08:21:20 <Qantourisc> then i got the wrong image somehow :)
08:21:47 <xiong> Ah. Well, now, that is the question. I can barely make them out, and are suspicious of them, because they make no sense to me. They are required but their price -- in terms of speed -- seems excessive.
08:22:31 <xiong> Nor are they required to accomplish the same general goal, if entrances and exits are paired before alternation.
08:22:38 <planetmaker> then build the setup without. It's feasable
08:23:29 <xiong> That's my whole point. I can't build that design, exactly as shown, without using short bridges. I'd like to try to understand why they were used, if anyone has some idea of it.
08:24:00 <planetmaker> they're fast enough for monorail. IIRC those are tubular bridges
08:24:16 <xiong> At first, I hoped I might just be ignorant of some basic thing, and that the design could be built, say, by putting the level track in before lowering the land, or the reverse, both of which I've tried.
08:24:45 <Qantourisc> xiong: there is another solution:
08:24:48 <Qantourisc> lower the station level
08:24:57 <xiong> Another thought of mine was that the short bridge penalty was considered irrelevant, since the trains must slow on approach to the station anyway.
08:25:14 <Qantourisc> i was thinking that too :D
08:25:27 <Qantourisc> use them on the exit
08:25:42 <Qantourisc> when you are using weigth x10 your trains won't be up to speed anyway :D
08:26:03 <xiong> Um, no, Sir, sorry. Same issue. You can't have tracks on two levels in strict alternation without bridges. I don't think.
08:26:34 <Qantourisc> wait let me cook up a screenshot
08:28:22 <xiong> Hmm... I'm doing something now with two levels of tunnels.
08:29:11 <xiong> I think there's a short tunnel penalty too, though. I read up on that... now I need to track down the page again.
08:35:11 <xiong> Okay, well, that only uses one level of tunnels and none are very short. But none of the tracks are level, either. That certainly should work okay, provided the tracks that don't tunnel are used as the entrances.
08:35:43 <Qantourisc> just an idea / variation
08:35:47 <Qantourisc> might inspire a better idea :)
08:35:54 <xiong> I tend to dislike asymmetric solutions. Trains seem to slide toward the shorter route.
08:36:20 <Qantourisc> quick slapup, i didn't look for symmetic :)
08:36:29 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: you now have in your solution half the tracks accessible only at a speed of 60km/h or so
08:36:36 <planetmaker> much less at least than thebridges
08:36:51 <xiong> Sometimes, of course, that's the way to go. When I enter an asymmetric junction, I tend to try to bring trains up to a waiting spot before or afterwards.
08:37:23 <planetmaker> also your tunnels are longer, such throughput is also limited
08:37:32 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: sorry i'm not used to monrail :)
08:37:42 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: my trains at run at 75km :)
08:37:49 <planetmaker> my arguments hold for every train track
08:37:51 <xiong> planetmaker, Are you saying, speed limited because of the slope? Or the tight curves?
08:38:15 <xiong> Yah, that's another issue. But I don't find those tunnels long.
08:38:37 <planetmaker> also you need signals between tunnels and the x
08:38:39 <Qantourisc> they are longer, but thats mainly because i just drafterd it
08:38:57 <xiong> Agree that it could be slightly compacted.
08:39:02 <Rubidium> planetmaker: in the wiki version of the terminus you can probably get away with the bridges and use shorted tunnels without any (apparant) downsides
08:39:09 <xiong> Let me show you the pairwise setup, though -- when I get it together.
08:39:49 <xiong> Rubidium, I can't seem to find the page explaining the short bridge penalty; I can't remember if there is a short tunnel penalty.
08:39:55 <xiong> Perhaps I should build a test track.
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08:40:21 <planetmaker> quite indeed, Rubidium
08:42:26 <planetmaker> gosh... spammers again :(
08:44:05 <Qantourisc> what about just crossing the rails ?
08:44:38 <Qantourisc> that would cause tomany locks right ?
08:44:44 <SpComb> Rubidium: read the signalling howto's, there's this cool new Path signals feature someone introduced
08:44:59 <Rubidium> SpComb: definitely; I wouldn't design my stations that way. There are way too many places where different tracks would lock eachother up
08:45:38 <Rubidium> it was merely to point out that the previous design can be done without bridges
08:48:22 <SpComb> in real-world terminuses I also join those together
08:49:03 <xiong> (http://imagebin.org/122772) With TTRS, in 1877. The first two bridges are concrete and limited to 30 mi/h. The rest are suspension and good for 50 mi/h. I assume similar limits in future, scaled up.
08:50:01 <xiong> Ah. Good, Rubidium. You avoid the bridging by staggering the tunnels.
08:51:30 <SpComb> although it's a bit of a bad example since I had to hack it a little due to some obscure train
08:52:03 <SpComb> since they can come in on one track but leave on two entirely different tracks
08:52:26 <SpComb> no space to build a path from both of those tracks for that one train
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08:53:59 <norbert79> SpComb: How did you make this screenshot?
08:54:05 <norbert79> SpComb: This rocks! :)
08:55:59 <norbert79> SpComb: Me? Not that old, yet I am over 30.. Or the screenshot itself? :)
08:56:01 <xiong> Damn antennas. There were no antennas in 1850. Lighthouses, yes, near the shore.
08:56:15 <SpComb> norbert79: the screenshot itself
08:56:38 <norbert79> SpComb: Old or not, I like it!
08:57:00 <norbert79> SpComb: How are such screenshots to be done? I mean how can I create tiled screenshots?
08:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> with pngtile, obviously :p
08:58:57 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, I had this hunch too, but never used it yet :D
09:00:44 <SpComb> it's a dynamic python app
09:00:53 <SpComb> with a custom C library
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09:12:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21143 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: reduce the number of dereferences in UpdateStationWaiting
09:14:18 <Qantourisc> is loading also counted as travel time ?
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09:15:50 <Qantourisc> even if waiting for goods ?
09:16:44 <Qantourisc> ofcours when the train is loaded more speed goes down :)
09:17:07 <Qantourisc> i wonder if a second locomotive is worth the cost
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09:54:01 <xiong> Rubidium, that is a winner.
09:54:59 <xiong> This all started with my plan to build giant trunk line transfer stations. Playing with a station spread of 18, the question is: How many station platforms can I cram into that square?
09:56:24 <xiong> I figure that half the tracks should be local and the other half the trunk line passing through. More or less. I completed one such station, with 18 trunk tracks, each 8 platforms long; and two sets of 8 local 6-longs. But it's not pretty.
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10:05:54 <Bluelight> How do I register on a IRC channel?
10:06:10 <xiong> I will tell something else, though it may be truly silly -- I don't know. I have covered the entire catchment area of each transfer station with road. My theory is that this will keep any industry from founding there; any industry in the catchment would steal all deliveries of its input cargo.
10:06:10 <Bluelight> Not registering the channel but my nick..
10:06:46 <xiong> Bluelight, I will be happy to help you with that but it's real OT for this chan. Would you like to /query me?
10:08:04 <xiong> Erm, "off topic". New to IRC?
10:08:18 <Qantourisc> dam AI is putting stuff in the way :D
10:08:29 <Bluelight> I'm registering on some other channel. But I'm not able to ask there since they require registration
10:08:35 <xiong> Qantourisc, Yah. Ask me again why I play on my own.
10:08:51 <Qantourisc> xiong: why do you play on your own ?
10:09:02 <xiong> Bluelight, Type "/query xiong", without the quotes.
10:09:16 <xiong> Qantourisc, Because I expect the damn AI to put stuff in my way.
10:09:51 <planetmaker> Bluelight: or just use /ns help
10:11:13 <AveiMil> There's a limit as to how far Cargo Ships can travel?
10:11:28 <AveiMil> "Can't insert new orders, too far from previous order."
10:11:31 <AveiMil> Dosen't look taht far though
10:11:42 <AveiMil> About half a 256 tile map
10:11:51 <Terkhen> AveiMil: you need to add buoys
10:26:42 <xiong> AveiMil, Beware that most early ships are damn slow. You will not have a profitable line if the fish rots before it gets to a harbor.
10:34:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21144 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Change [FS#4206]: filter stations by cargo they have a rating for instead of having cargo waiting
10:34:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21145 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp station_cmd.cpp): -Fix: station list wasn't updated when a new cargo got a rating
10:44:19 <AveiMil> I'm developing a NewGRF
10:45:23 <AveiMil> Or makes ship more viable, rather
10:51:40 <AveiMil> planetmaker, PR_BUILD_VEHICLE_WAGON dosen't seem to work
10:52:25 <AveiMil> Or I've misunderstood it's purpose.
10:52:27 <planetmaker> AveiMil: can you make a bug report, best with a test newgrf attached?
10:52:33 <AveiMil> Supposed to make train wagons more expensive, right?
10:52:41 <AveiMil> *control their cost I mean
10:53:19 <AveiMil> sure, where was that again?
10:53:25 <AveiMil> and how do I fix it manually, basecost.py?
10:54:39 <planetmaker> I don't ask for a fix. I ask for a description and test grf in the bug tracker.
10:55:12 <planetmaker> other than that basecost.py might be right
10:55:22 <AveiMil> yeah, I was asking for a fix :)
10:55:32 <AveiMil> link me where I do that again
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10:56:23 <AveiMil> I don't see anything wrong in basecost.py though, not with my untrained eyes
11:00:21 <AveiMil> Do you know what the problem is?
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11:05:32 <planetmaker> I don't and I don't have time now
11:06:01 <AveiMil> Do I really need to attach the NewGRF considering the only description required is "PR_BUILD_VEHICLE_WAGON does not do anything"?
11:07:25 <planetmaker> probably not. But you seem to have a newgrf at hand...
11:07:54 <AveiMil> I can't tell how to open a new issue
11:08:27 <planetmaker> click on 'new issue' in the menu on the top
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11:47:52 <planetmaker> i just managed to get a brief glimps, AveiMil. It works for me.
11:48:30 <planetmaker> (and now it would have paid off to make a proper bug report with 'this newgrf with this code doesn't work under these circumstances)
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12:19:04 <norbert79> Sorry, security check.. Where is my mind...
12:25:02 <AveiMil> planetmaker, you're right, I'm sorry
12:25:49 <AveiMil> but there definetly is a bug, but not directly linked to the variable. I'll make a new bug report and upload the newGrf where it dosen't work.
12:26:58 <planetmaker> please also and especially the source code
12:27:12 <AveiMil> uploading the entire project in a zip
12:27:26 <planetmaker> the grf works certainly by the specs ;-) - just not the compiler
12:28:47 <planetmaker> wow. Google's preview for searches is not that bad...
12:29:37 <AveiMil> done, hope that's better
12:51:52 <Aamodt> hey , how do i start Openttd server? when im in SSH it always ask me for graphics driver. i want to run a dedicated server without graphics, are that posiable ?
12:53:24 <norbert79> check the command line options in MAN
12:54:21 <glevans2> btw norbert79, I don't speak german, but found that strip funny anyway...
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12:57:56 <Aamodt> i did do -D . did try also -f -D but still no background process created
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13:00:14 <Aamodt> it is a Virtual server which runs on VM ESXi , checked all "required" libs and such but still failed hm ^^
13:01:12 <Aamodt> Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt. <- is not another executable for server ? seems like the dedicated server wants to run in graphics mode
13:01:48 <Rubidium> doesn't matter. It still needs the graphics sets
13:02:55 <Rubidium> primarily because "graphics set" isn't a 100% correct description of the file. E.g. it contains some data needed for map generation and some other non-GUI data
13:04:12 <norbert79> Aamodt: To translate it to plain english: You need the basic GRF files for running it. Try using OpenGFX
13:07:53 <glevans2> Aamodt, if you have a working client install, just copy over the graphics files from there to your dedicated server's directory structure
13:08:17 <Aamodt> hehe , seems like i got it to work :) have a nice day
13:09:03 <Aamodt> installed it from the svn : ) but yeah just needed to correct the ttd original files
13:09:24 <norbert79> what did you install from svn?
13:10:14 <norbert79> (The OpenTTD Server I mean)
13:10:27 <planetmaker> [14:02] <Rubidium> primarily because "graphics set" isn't a 100% correct description of the file. E.g. it contains some data needed for map generation and some other non-GUI data <-- maybe we should rename it to "base data" instead of "base graphics"?
13:10:39 <planetmaker> Or should we remove the old terrain generator?
13:11:01 <planetmaker> or re-write it such that it looks for the height maps in openttd.grf / extra.grf?
13:11:02 <TrueBrain> or move it to its own file :p
13:11:33 <planetmaker> forget about extra / openttd.grf
13:12:35 <norbert79> Why don't you rename it to 'terrain.grf'? :)
13:12:43 <Rubidium> or just leave it as is and beef up the explanation about the "graphics set" in readme.txt
13:12:47 <TrueBrain> renaming is not an option :p
13:13:11 <Rubidium> norbert79: because Chris, in all his eternal wisdom, didn't put only terrain graphics in the particularly needed GRF
13:13:12 <Aamodt> the openttd.cfg does that apply to the server aswell ?
13:13:43 <norbert79> Rubidium: Never mind, it was just an idea :)
13:14:06 <Rubidium> even then, there's quite some code that in some way depends on at least some meta data from the graphics
13:14:52 <norbert79> Lets rename it to 'Base dataset', and problem solved ;-)
13:14:58 <Rubidium> i.e. there's quite some contamination of _gui.cpp code being called on the server
13:18:04 <Rubidium> norbert79: we're calling them collectively "third party data files"
13:18:04 <norbert79> Rubidium: Weird description, considering, that no else game can provide those GRF, but the original series :)
13:18:04 <Rubidium> naming a subset of the data files as data files is only going to make the problem worse
13:18:04 <Rubidium> norbert79: OpenGFX and friends are from the original series?
13:18:04 <Rubidium> even then, there are at least three different sets of original data files
13:18:04 <Rubidium> (and then I'm excluding the music)
13:18:04 <norbert79> Rubidium: I know... Oh, void my thoughts on this, I had just some rough morning, can't think too well
13:19:09 <planetmaker> [14:18] <norbert79> Rubidium: Weird description, considering, that no else game can provide those GRF, but the original series :) <--- pfffft!
13:19:24 <norbert79> planetmaker: Alright, alright... Jeez :)
13:20:00 <planetmaker> we have base graphics and sound for two years, base music for about one :-)
13:21:24 <planetmaker> and their existance basically triggered the step from 0.7 to 1.0 ;-)
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13:52:01 <Qantourisc> the ai has LITTERED the map !
13:53:56 <planetmaker> just reset the ai
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14:43:20 <norbert79> Whops, somethings broke there
14:44:20 <planetmaker> I think those never worked
14:44:52 <planetmaker> where XXX=grfcodec|trunk|stable|opengfx|...
14:45:26 <norbert79> Would be nice having this in the bot too, but thank you planetmaker :)
14:45:40 <norbert79> Just wanted to update my copy of grfcodec
14:53:32 <Belugas> hello sir SmatZ :) sorry for lag ;)
15:08:10 <Belugas> perfect mood for the day
15:10:20 <AveiMil> Yexo, that dosen't make sense :(
15:10:42 <AveiMil> If I take the entire basecost block and put it in a new NewGRF file where NO viehcles are defined at all.
15:10:52 <AveiMil> The cost for the wagons are increased correctly.
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15:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> base costs behave differently depending on whether you define vehicles or not.
15:13:43 <AveiMil> kind of stupid, it's a lot of work to include all the wagons in the NewGRF
15:14:28 <Yexo> it is made this way to multiple vehicle newgrfs sets can coexist in the same game
15:15:22 <AveiMil> can you call one NewGRF from another?
15:16:12 <planetmaker> there are strong limits on what you can do to other newgrfs
15:16:35 <AveiMil> I've just created a "Wagon_Bug.grf" which has that one line that increases wagon costs.
15:16:42 <AveiMil> and then I want to call taht from my main.grf mod file
15:16:56 <planetmaker> but vehicle newgrfs not writing global base costs was a long decision and proves quite valuable
15:16:57 <AveiMil> dunno if that can work
15:17:14 <Yexo> that can't work as far as I know
15:17:50 <planetmaker> it probably would increase base costs of all wagons in all newgrfs
15:18:20 <planetmaker> but then... one could just use the existing base cost newgrf. That's its whole purpose :-)
15:18:37 <planetmaker> or rather writing a preset for it or so...
15:19:22 <AveiMil> meh, I'll have to add a property for each train instead then
15:19:56 <Belugas> life ain't fair, isn't it?
15:19:57 <AveiMil> I just hope the monorail and maglev wagons rae pretty much identical
15:20:07 <AveiMil> so I only really have to 11 and copy/paste em instead of 33
15:20:49 <Belugas> lucky that yuou do not work on nfo, but on nml :)
15:21:27 <AveiMil> even luckier than I don't really know what that entainls in detail :P
15:22:41 <AveiMil> have to go through all the aircraft again and balance the cost
15:22:51 <AveiMil> I found my previous method to be poor
15:29:40 <planetmaker> well... you've already been told to discuss your issues in the forums and ask for advice :-)
15:29:56 <planetmaker> it might also save work to you.
15:31:27 <AveiMil> no, I want it to be perfectly playable before I release it out, that way people won't try it, find it lacking and lose intrest
15:32:12 <planetmaker> you don't understand the difference between release and development discussion :-)
15:34:26 <norbert79> planetmaker: I made a bread, want to taste it? :D
15:34:35 <norbert79> planetmaker: Now thats including both!
15:34:50 <AveiMil> Don't want to spend time discussing when I know there are things I need to fix already and know what I want to do. Just want a solid base down then I'll be open to discuss.
15:35:35 <AveiMil> less time talkin more time doin
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17:07:02 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: glx * r21146 /trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi: -Fix [FS#4212]: make sure to be upgraded openttd is not running when installing (Win32)
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18:31:25 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc ln(10)/ln(2)
18:31:25 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: 'ln' is not a defined function.
18:31:31 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc log(10)/log(2)
18:31:31 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 3.32192809489
18:31:42 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc log(10)/log(1.5)
18:31:42 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5.67887358727
18:45:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21147 /trunk/src/lang/ (polish.txt portuguese.txt unfinished/basque.txt):
18:45:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: basque - 49 changes by HerrBasque
18:45:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: polish - 1 changes by voythas
18:45:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
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19:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... spammer attack on the forum?
19:13:55 <Eddi|zuHause> threads with chinese letters in the title make me suspicious...
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19:18:36 <Terkhen> there was another one this morning
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19:22:26 <Terkhen> hmmm... is there an equivalent to "tar --strip-components" in unzip?
19:24:36 <Terkhen> I only need to strip the first folder, -j seems to strip all of them
19:25:44 <andythenorth> do we have realistic locks yet?
19:26:09 <andythenorth> I'm quitting the community then :P
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19:27:42 <andythenorth> Alberth: hierarchical groups?
19:28:46 <Alberth> fine by me, but it needs extraction of the (+) and (-) code from the adv. settings
19:28:54 <__ln__> If infrastructure sharing of airports is not done within a week, I'll take myself hostage!
19:29:04 <Alberth> (which is good, it is needed elsewhere too)
19:29:21 <andythenorth> does hierarchical groups block using groups to also set orders?
19:29:26 <Alberth> __ln__: to save you the trouble of waiting, please do it now
19:29:56 <Alberth> andythenorth: probably not
19:31:03 <nicfer> why ex's servers are still 1.0.3?
19:31:51 <Alberth> hmm, perhaps that is not even relevant
19:32:10 <Alberth> nicfer: the best person to ask that is 'ex'
19:32:55 <Alberth> andythenorth: you changed ponies w.r.t. groups?
19:33:15 <andythenorth> I shot all the ponies
19:33:46 <andythenorth> I have no problems with current system
19:34:02 <andythenorth> I just don't want it broken to serve the needs of a few anal train nerds :P
19:35:13 <andythenorth> consists would be nice, but not if it's confusing / hard
19:35:25 <andythenorth> I will serve multiple cookies for rv-wagons though
19:41:28 * Belugas wanst to be a rv-wagon
19:41:54 <Alberth> Cookies are going to be quite safe for a long time, I think
19:43:46 <andythenorth> that means I have to recode all of HEQS :(
19:46:11 <andythenorth> and no BANDIT truck set :(
19:50:16 <andythenorth> these russian mine railways are nuts
19:50:31 <andythenorth> that photo looks approx TTD scale :P
19:59:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's an optical illusion due to the objective used to photograph. it shortens the depth
20:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure of that ;)
20:06:07 <__ln__> i thought optical illusions were not acceptable in russia
20:06:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: eh?
20:07:02 <Eddi|zuHause> in soviet russia, the illusion is YOU
20:07:43 <andythenorth> the size is a function of the distance the shot was taken from
20:07:56 <andythenorth> is what you meant?
20:08:07 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's not what i meant
20:08:18 <andythenorth> it's not a tilt-shift photo
20:08:19 <Belugas> some lenses have the property to change the depth of field
20:08:45 <andythenorth> but dof doesn't affect the size of objects in frame :P
20:09:15 <Belugas> although it's not what's been used here
20:09:37 <__ln__> wasn't it some emperor of Russia or something who asked why does the railway seem to get narrower towards the horizon, and once given an answer said that such thing is not acceptable on his railways.
20:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't heard that...
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20:18:16 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, what i mean: because all visible wagons are (almost) all in depth-view, none in width-view, the length of the wagons is probably larger than the eye suggests
20:26:55 <Belugas> I'd love to have a tilt-shift
20:27:06 <Belugas> i'd love to have a lot of costly toys :S
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20:32:12 <andythenorth> Belugas: my camera fakes tilt-shift
20:32:19 <andythenorth> it's surprisingly good :)
20:33:55 <andythenorth> Belugas: tilt-shift makes stuff look like toys
20:34:04 <andythenorth> so what happens if you shoot toys with it? :P
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21:19:04 <andythenorth> if I remove 'piece goods' class from Goods cargo in FIRS, I break savegames yes / no?
21:20:04 <planetmaker> cargos might be in vehicles not (anymore) suitable for the cargo type
21:20:29 <planetmaker> but please don't remove piece goods from goods...
21:20:48 <planetmaker> I think express and piece goods exist nicely along eachother
21:21:08 <planetmaker> same as refrigerated is a sub-class of food, so is express of piece goods. In my eyes
21:22:03 <andythenorth> 'piece goods' has been reported as a bug for goods by multiple people...
21:23:14 <planetmaker> how as in how does it show to be a bug?
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21:26:06 <planetmaker> that gives no reason
21:26:14 <planetmaker> except "I want it so"
21:27:03 <andythenorth> well changing nothing is easy :
21:27:28 <planetmaker> I think it might be one thing to really put off for now
21:27:58 <planetmaker> I'd possibly keep in the back of my head the cargo class 'issue'. But otoh I don't quite see much of an issue
21:28:35 <planetmaker> on the other hand... keeping it by the standards might be good
21:28:43 <planetmaker> you see: I'm undecided as well :-)
21:28:54 <planetmaker> maybe change it. In 0.6
21:29:12 <planetmaker> But fix releases must not break compatibility
21:30:25 <Eddi|zuHause> change the cargo label :)
21:30:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: suggestions? :P
21:31:04 <andythenorth> maybe we scrap goods and make them more precise
21:31:31 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. right. after you have made everything else more generic, like "metal" :po
21:31:58 <andythenorth> some things are generic, some are more specific
21:33:11 <Terkhen> in fact, you only need three cargos: passengers, raw stuff, stuff
21:33:34 <andythenorth> passengers are just stuff
21:33:51 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I think that's FIRS Basic
21:34:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth: which industry deals with lumber in one way or another?
21:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "manuals for neuromancer games"
21:36:21 <AveiMil> Dinger 200: Running cost, 158,400/yr
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21:39:32 * Terkhen wonders if he has broken cb36 for ships
21:40:10 <Terkhen> andythenorth: when the porcupine 30 is fully loaded with oil, it's max speed is supposed to be reduced?
21:40:15 <planetmaker> thanks andythenorth
21:40:24 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I'll look
21:41:17 <andythenorth> Terkhen: what speed are you seeing loaded?
21:41:38 <Terkhen> same as unloaded, 96 km/h
21:41:59 <andythenorth> in that case maybe you broke it :D
21:42:01 <Terkhen> in 1.0.4 the speed while loaded is 74 km/h so probably I broke it
21:43:24 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you broke it ;)
21:44:22 <Terkhen> yeah, there was a bug with CB36: it was called whenever a ship moved (almost always), resulting in a big slow down in ships
21:44:25 <planetmaker> decide on vehicle properties
21:44:31 <Terkhen> I probably forgot to update it after leaving a station
21:45:16 <Terkhen> hm, it works in r21135?
21:46:14 <andythenorth> not as far as I can see
21:46:29 <planetmaker> pssst, andythenorth : no grfID bump needed ;-)
21:47:44 <planetmaker> that's what minimum_compatible_version is for
21:47:54 <andythenorth> is that TTDPatch compatible :P
21:48:23 <Rubidium> does TTDP actually care about the GRFID of loaded savegames?
21:49:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth: afaik mb complained about that openttd doesn't ask on load for selecting the 'correct' newgrf when not the exact is found. So... I assume TTDP has there some nice user interface for this
21:50:19 <Rubidium> *or* ttdpatch just uses newgrf(w).cfg for that, i.e. it doesn't think about selecting another NewGRF by itself
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21:51:44 <planetmaker> I think that's what he meant
21:51:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so I should change my forum post
22:01:19 <Belugas> [16:49] <@planetmaker> andythenorth: afaik mb complained about that openttd doesn't ask on load for selecting the 'correct' newgrf when not the exact is found. So... I assume TTDP has there some nice user interface for this
22:01:48 * planetmaker hugs Belugas and gives him a cookie
22:02:10 <Belugas> gnap gnap gnap gnap gnap gnap gnap gnap gnap
22:02:45 * andythenorth provides one extra industry layout
22:02:51 <andythenorth> gratis, free, no charg
22:03:10 <andythenorth> accepts: chocolate, flour, butter
22:03:24 <andythenorth> produces: cookies
22:03:32 <andythenorth> accepts: raw stuff, stuff
22:03:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: indeed cookies or so... would make for an AWESOME toyland interpretation of FIRS
22:04:50 <Rubidium> andythenorth: accepts: farmed foods, processed foods
22:04:58 <planetmaker> cookies. marbles. brick trucks
22:05:18 <andythenorth> no I am not producing a toyland specific FIRS
22:05:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I didn't say specific
22:05:44 <planetmaker> Just different graphics and strings for toyland climate
22:05:57 <planetmaker> no other logic needed
22:06:09 <planetmaker> just a few action07s. And graphics
22:06:21 <andythenorth> I don't want to learn to draw toyland style :P
22:06:31 <AveiMil> can item names have _ in them?
22:06:37 <AveiMil> PassengerCarriage_Rail
22:10:03 <AveiMil> nml dosen't like this comment:
22:10:51 <AveiMil> planetmaker, or rather, it does not like
22:11:00 <AveiMil> gives a python error on compile
22:11:29 <AveiMil> nmlc: An internal error has occurred:
22:11:29 <AveiMil> nmlc-version: r1013 (3d4eced62f88)
22:11:29 <AveiMil> Error: (UnicodeDecodeError) "'utf8' codec can't decode byte 0xa3 in positio
22:11:29 <AveiMil> n 42453: invalid start byte".
22:11:29 <AveiMil> Command: ['C:\\Games\\OpenTTD_NewGRF\\nml\\nmlc', 'C:\\Games\\OpenTTD_NewGRF\
22:11:31 <AveiMil> \AveiMil_PIGM\\AveiMil_PIGM.nml', '-l', 'C:\\Games\\OpenTTD_NewGRF\\AveiMil_PIGM
22:11:33 <AveiMil> Location: File "C:\Program Files\Python27\lib\codecs.py", line 477, in read
22:11:48 <AveiMil> if I remove the from my comment line it goes away
22:11:56 <Rubidium> you're not providing utf8 but iso8859-15 (or something similar)
22:13:04 <AveiMil> I don't really know that stuff
22:13:15 <AveiMil> but the endocing says ANSI in File menu of notepad2
22:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> does nmlc automatically create the "thorn" symbol on utf8-newgrf-strings?
22:15:44 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes. It encodes every string as utf-8, when possible
22:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "This is currently undocumented but easily understood by reading the source." :)
22:19:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21148 /trunk/src/ship_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r21098): Evaluate callback 36 for ship speed as frequently as done for other vehicle types.
22:20:44 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: indeed ;-)
22:21:06 <AveiMil> fuck yes, then I'm close to ready to make a forum post
22:26:19 <svip> I remember when I just discovered a major bug in GIMP.
22:26:27 <svip> Which had apparently been there since 1998.
22:26:45 <svip> Since the file in regards to the bug hadn't been changed since then.
22:27:08 <svip> Eddi|zuHause: Comments can at times confuse one even more!
22:28:09 <Terkhen> comments can be outdated
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22:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone know if python has builtin support for preceeding 0 when converting int to str?
22:34:06 <__ln__> other than str = "%02d" % int ?
22:34:22 <__ln__> (i don't know the answer anyway)
22:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that might work...
22:36:03 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I guess it'll be going octal on you
22:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> other question: you know whether one can add or substract "1 day" from a datetime?
22:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i meant the general approach with the printf syntax and % operator
22:37:43 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: only for dates in the past :)
22:37:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21149 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix [FS#4210]: [OSX] Unify compiler flags with other OS and work around a compiler bug in gcc-4.0.1 which breaks graphics display in x86_64 binaries (Rubidium)
22:38:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: how do you mean?
22:38:31 <Rubidium> how is python supposed to know how long a day in the future is going to take?
22:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "An idealized naive date, assuming the current Gregorian calendar always was, and always will be, in effect. "
22:42:33 <Eddi|zuHause> seems it's like "datetime.now() - timedelta(days=1)"
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22:47:33 <Eddi|zuHause> trick question: how do you test whether printing works, when you don't have physical access to the printer?
22:49:15 <Rubidium> print something really offensive with your name, address and phone number on it
22:49:18 <AveiMil> Microsoft XPS Document writer
22:49:38 <Rubidium> if you're contacted by whoever "owns" that printer, then it did work
22:50:08 <Rubidium> (or the police if they really didn't like what you printed)
22:50:46 <Rubidium> AveiMil: virtual printers in now way test whether printing to a particular physical printer works
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22:51:05 <AveiMil> misread the question, sorry
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22:51:29 <AveiMil> can't you view the status que thing?
22:51:46 <AveiMil> if the job isen't listed there it's reasonably safe to assume it's been printed
22:53:07 <Rubidium> or silently rejected by the (assumed) network printer
22:55:29 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'll check whether the xps printer works for my purposes...
22:55:33 <AveiMil> in other words there's no way to know for sure
22:55:57 <AveiMil> why would you print to something you can't ahve physical access to though? :)
22:56:10 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i don't actually need the printer to work, i need to write a program that can print.
22:56:50 <Rubidium> oh, so you basically asked the wrong question
22:56:53 <AveiMil> so you did not accedentially print a porn site at work and now you need to find the printed and destroy the evidence?
22:57:33 <Rubidium> AveiMil: printing somewhere you don't have (direct) physical access to is also known as "faxing" :)
22:57:48 <AveiMil> What's faxing? Sorry I'm not 40+ :)
22:58:28 <SpComb> remember to fax the document back when you're done with it
23:00:36 <AveiMil> lol, I'm just kidding
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23:06:23 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 4639.92553711
23:09:58 <AveiMil> Are AI generally hard coded to expect how much building a railway costs?
23:10:19 <AveiMil> the AI's can't seem to survive with my mod
23:15:05 <AveiMil> There should be a "return to default" otpion for the advanced settings
23:20:37 <Eddi|zuHause> AIs can check the cost
23:20:47 <Yexo> they can, but I'm not sure if many do
23:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: you can remove parts of openttd.cfg
23:21:30 <Eddi|zuHause> then they are refilled with default values
23:27:30 <AveiMil> yeah, I figured that out
23:29:43 <AveiMil> is [Patch] tag meant to indicate NewGRF?
23:31:06 <AveiMil> should I tag my thread with [NewGRF] or nothing?
23:31:12 <Yexo> newgrfs go in the graphics development section, you don't need any tag
23:31:42 <AveiMil> I still associated 'Graphics' with pictures
23:32:18 <Yexo> the name might need a bit of an overhaul, but all newgrfs can go there, even if you don't have any graphics
23:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> might want to set the appropriate value in action14 if you have no graphics ;)
23:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the place where additional newgrf information like version, palette and parameters are defined
23:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> don't know how to do that in nml, though
23:42:49 <AveiMil> I don't have that in mine
23:43:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you set palette to "i have no graphics"
23:43:23 <AveiMil> I don't know where to set that
23:43:31 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: dalestan was last seen in #openttd 33 weeks, 4 days, 7 hours, 3 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <DaleStan> <PeterT> Why would one have info version 5 instead of info version 7? <-- because you didn't use any Info version 6 or 7 features, and there was no header telling NFORenum to use any particular version.
23:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to, but it probably would be very simple to do.
23:44:19 <AveiMil> it says Palette: Windows in the in-game menu
23:44:22 <DorpsGek> Chris_Booth: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 50 seconds ago: <SmatZ> @seen dalestan
23:44:25 <AveiMil> I'm sure nml took care of that for me
23:45:57 <AveiMil> Is it common courtesy to attach the source code along with my NewGRF?
23:46:00 <AveiMil> when posting in the forum
23:48:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that solely depends on you and your license
23:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> when you have written every part of your newgrf by yourself, you are free to choose the license. if you used (significant) parts from others, then their license may restrict you
23:49:36 <frosch123> nml creates the action14 palette information on its own
23:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but does it also detect the "no palette" mode?
23:50:13 <frosch123> and the version information is also obligary in recent nml versions
23:50:17 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it does for mi2
23:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> damn... teamviewer is bad. i can copy from the remote computer (win), and paste in the local computer (linux), but i can't copy from local to remote.
23:53:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean copy text, not files.
continue to next day ⏵
