IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-11-09
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00:02:54 <AveiMil> When the time calls for it, how do I publish my NewGRF?
00:09:02 <AveiMil> I'm far away from that point anyway :)
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02:44:20 <GhostlyDeath> Year 0 is unplayable
02:48:29 <GhostlyDeath> No vehicles, no trains, no planes, no ships
02:48:52 <GhostlyDeath> Add horse drawn carraige, invented year 0, phases out year 1930
02:49:20 <GhostlyDeath> This civilization is advanced building wise for it's time
02:56:47 <Belugas> cool. and what happens if you play at year 50000?
02:57:16 <Belugas> flying saucers everywhere?
02:57:24 <Belugas> i might expect that...
02:57:55 <Belugas> GhostlyDeath, of course year 0 has nothing, if there is not a single newgrf to propse vehicles :)
02:58:11 <GhostlyDeath> In 1925, there's just this junky kirby train
02:58:31 <Belugas> just like original game
02:58:37 <GhostlyDeath> I never played the original
02:58:57 <GhostlyDeath> Add some Galaxy class starships heh
02:59:00 <Belugas> well.. you now have a taste of it
02:59:30 <GhostlyDeath> Space port, a 25x25 block
02:59:50 <Belugas> do you want me to show you the way to the newgrf wiki?
03:00:09 <Belugas> all the stuff that you want is at the tip of your fingers :D
03:00:27 <Belugas> plus... a good dose of imagination (you obvioulsy do not lack iut)
03:00:38 <GhostlyDeath> I've idled here before
03:00:39 <Belugas> and a good does of patience (that i lack )
03:04:25 <GhostlyDeath> I got a passenger ferry available now, except there's only a few lakes
03:07:01 <Belugas> nice :) i always loved boats
03:07:18 <Belugas> far less than my bed, though...
03:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "war is gods way of teaching americans geography"
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09:46:40 <AveiMil> I completed my best effort at re-balancing the aircrafts yesterday (relative to other aircraft), would like a second and third opinion on how it looks (possible problems?) If anyone can take the time to load up the NewGRF and look at the aircraft stats in the GUI that'd be helpful. Download:-> http://www.aveimil.com/OpenTTD/
10:03:07 <AveiMil> Does anyone have any save games for 1.0.4 where you've played til the late game with INFLATION ON?
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10:19:45 <planetmaker> AveiMil, Just create a game, adjust inflation levels to what you see fit and fast-forward it.
10:19:54 <planetmaker> best in minimized state. Quite easy
10:33:35 <AveiMil> I know, just wanted to see how people where doing in the game at that stage.
10:33:51 <AveiMil> Because at 4% intrest rates, after 100 years, a 50K plane in 1950
10:33:57 <AveiMil> is now 2.5 million in 2050
10:34:47 <AveiMil> at 2% intrest, a 50K plane in 1950 is 360K in 2050
10:34:54 <AveiMil> "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function."
10:35:49 <planetmaker> anything can be considered linear ;-)
10:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that is the silliest statement that i ever heard.
10:36:03 <planetmaker> if not, plot it logarithmically
10:36:30 <AveiMil> exponential function is not linear (??)
10:37:04 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, in first order anything is linear :-P
10:37:12 <planetmaker> The rest is just error-considerations :-P
10:37:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant the statement before that :p
10:37:30 <AveiMil> I think it's a pretty good statement, just imagine when the news proclaim "stable economy growth of 3% every year"
10:37:40 <AveiMil> nobody seem to realize that that is anything but stable
10:37:46 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I think it's true to a surprising extend
10:38:07 <planetmaker> and definitely if you remove the superlative
10:38:29 <AveiMil> it's a fundemental error in human genreal thinking, it's not intuitive without spesific learning
10:38:38 <AveiMil> which perhaps 1% of world population has
10:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but a simple shortcoming does not the downfall make.
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10:45:33 <planetmaker> that's a valid word. But the grammar of that sentence fails and is ambiguous at best.
10:46:47 <AveiMil> what's wrong with teh grammar? word dosen't find anything :D
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10:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with it? "one swallow does not a summer make"
10:54:05 <AveiMil> what does that have to do with the grammar in that sentence?
10:54:06 <planetmaker> at least word order.
10:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i did certainly not invent it.
10:54:36 <AveiMil> so, there's nothing gramatically wrong with that sentence
10:54:55 <planetmaker> nothing wrong with that sentence is
10:56:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21120 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r21096): Use the engine max speed value instead of the savegame value, as the latter could be stored in old units in old savegames.
10:56:57 <AveiMil> I have no idea what you two are on about, explain what you actually mean, argh
10:57:46 <AveiMil> I'm worried about my English comprehension if there's something gramatically wrong with the sentence "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." and I don't see it.
10:58:07 <planetmaker> AveiMil, I referred to Eddi's answer
10:59:10 <AveiMil> I thought Eddi's answer was sarcastic in terms of intential poor grammar
10:59:13 <AveiMil> and you followed up :P
10:59:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and i wanted to say that there's nothing wrong with my grammar. only with your grammar :p
11:00:02 <AveiMil> germans can't speak/write English
11:01:43 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you can say that, but that doesn't make it true :-P I think what you mean to say should read "a simple shortcoming does not make for a downfall". If not... well... :-)
11:01:56 <planetmaker> then the automatic error - correction even fails
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11:06:51 <AveiMil> I think Eddi likes traction force equations better than English grammar
11:08:20 <Eddi|zuHause> what the hell should i do with traction force equations all day long? grammar is a great thing to play with.
11:08:59 <planetmaker> there are people who spend their lives on the traction force equation :-P
11:09:05 <planetmaker> or single coefficients therein ;-)
11:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but those are PHYISICISTS!!
11:09:52 <planetmaker> engineers more precisely
11:10:10 <AveiMil> Theoretical Traction Force Physicists
11:10:21 <AveiMil> it's a field of study
11:10:39 <AveiMil> compete with String Theory for funds
11:11:03 <planetmaker> AveiMil, 'traction force physicists" will win by orders of magnitude
11:11:20 <AveiMil> Don't forget 'Theoretical'
11:11:30 <planetmaker> the whole automobile, rail, aviation and whatever industry rely on that. Yes, also on the theory
11:11:30 <AveiMil> They explore the known boundries of traction force
11:11:34 <planetmaker> especially aviation
11:12:02 <planetmaker> as traction is very closely linked to drag
11:12:11 <AveiMil> so you are saying there are theoretical traction force physicists?
11:12:38 <planetmaker> I'd bet there are
11:12:50 <planetmaker> they might not call themselves that way, though
11:13:10 <AveiMil> I doubt there are any in the context I'm referring to
11:13:43 <planetmaker> I'd ask at Siemens...
11:14:23 <AveiMil> how does the traction force equation relate to the formation of black holes?
11:14:45 <AveiMil> I'm sure there are many at work trying to find the answer to such questions
11:18:35 <Terkhen> there are far more stupid lines of investigation with published articles
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11:27:19 <AveiMil> I completed my best effort at re-balancing the aircrafts yesterday (relative to other aircraft), would like a second and third opinion on how it looks (possible problems?) If anyone can take the time to load up the NewGRF and look at the aircraft stats in the GUI that'd be helpful. Download:-> http://www.aveimil.com/OpenTTD/
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11:28:14 <planetmaker> AveiMil, ask for reviews of newgrfs in the tt-forums.
11:28:58 <planetmaker> (but I said that already, I think)
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11:31:21 <AveiMil> I want to make a big post later when it's closer to "beta"
11:31:36 <planetmaker> asking here constantly for review won't help you a bit.
11:31:53 <planetmaker> tt-forums is not mainly for publishing, but for development discussion
11:32:16 <planetmaker> AveiMil, because it gets boring and annyoing... when the same thing gets asked over and over
11:32:28 <planetmaker> and your audience for tests is in tt-forums much bigger.
11:32:33 <planetmaker> And your links don't get lost
11:33:02 <AveiMil> heh, I need realtime communication for this stage of things
11:33:17 <planetmaker> The 'real' publication then should be done on bananas. tt-forums attachment can be used by everyone, but you'll be surprised of the difference of impact between bananas and tt-forums
11:33:28 <planetmaker> you don't need real-time
11:33:39 <AveiMil> I'm far away from being ready to publish it
11:33:54 <planetmaker> as I said: it's not about publishing it. It's about discussing the development.
11:34:00 <planetmaker> And a forum is quite suitable for that
11:34:20 <planetmaker> that's what the newgrf development (sub)forum is ONLY about
11:34:25 <planetmaker> and it's a highly frequented one
11:34:34 <AveiMil> takes too long at this early stage, I intend to do taht when I have a more "stable" release. right now I'm making new versios of the grf constantly
11:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... what am i doing wrong if i have wxpython installed, but "import wx" fails?
11:35:27 <planetmaker> AveiMil, suit yourself... I'm just telling you the way how it works...
11:36:53 <AveiMil> If nobody cares to help from me asking questions here at this stage, that's fine, I'll justhave to rely on my own common sense for now and wait til I'm ready to make a big post. I'll stop asking if it's annoying.
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11:37:07 <planetmaker> people here don't wait constantly to get the chance to review *something*. Review takes time. Answering questions, too
11:37:32 <planetmaker> this channel is certainly for asking questions.
11:37:37 <planetmaker> But not for review
11:38:07 <planetmaker> But... experience tells me, that reviews take time. People do that occasionally
11:38:36 <planetmaker> But then the review should allow also for giving the answer in the reviewer's own time.
11:38:43 <planetmaker> That increases those chances also dramatically
11:38:58 <planetmaker> and as said: you don't need to start with a 'big' posting
11:39:04 <planetmaker> that's IMHO also the wrong approach.
11:39:13 <planetmaker> discuss your ideas. Present them. Ask for feedback
11:39:22 <planetmaker> But allow people to give it in their time.
11:39:31 <planetmaker> and that's what tt-forums works great at
11:39:53 <planetmaker> and from what I've seen the other days of your grf - it's in perfect shape to be discussed at tt-forums
11:40:08 <AveiMil> right, but right now I'm making changes every hour when working on it
11:40:10 <planetmaker> beta-versions are something you can even call 'release' - not development discussion
11:40:20 <AveiMil> so then I run the risk of people discussig changes on the forum
11:40:23 <AveiMil> that I've already modified
11:40:28 <planetmaker> so what? Does it matter if you get feedback on a slightly oder version?
11:40:43 <AveiMil> right now I just need a quick review of 5-10 mins
11:40:57 <AveiMil> from experienced players, to see if there's any glaring problems/errors
11:41:20 <AveiMil> something I havent thought about that might force me to cahnge things around a lot
11:41:54 <planetmaker> also: you want review. In what sense? Any particular questions? Any ... hints what bothers you... etc pp
11:42:08 <planetmaker> putting those questions down in writing also forces _you_ to actually think about it.
11:42:14 <planetmaker> That also usually helps tremendously
11:42:44 <AveiMil> right now, just to look over the aircraft stats (create a game in 2050 with viechles never expire on) and see how the costs/runningcost/speed factors compare
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11:42:59 <AveiMil> and if there might be some game breaking balance concerns with the stats
11:43:07 <planetmaker> e.g. I don't even know anymore what your intentions with that newgrf are. Some balancing. of vehicles. right. of which? by what means etc pp
11:43:24 <AveiMil> my intentions have changed :)
11:43:43 <AveiMil> I want to rebalance all viechles/aircraft/trains/ships
11:44:06 <AveiMil> in general, the NewGRF is to improve gameplay
11:44:13 <AveiMil> (difficulty and balance)
11:44:31 <planetmaker> also... that question is too big, AveiMil to put up here without providing a link where people can put down their thoughts
11:44:52 <AveiMil> right now, just to look over the aircraft stats (create a game in 2050 with viechles never expire on) and see how the costs/runningcost/speed factors compare <- that is not a big question
11:44:55 <planetmaker> and you should put down your thoughts and intentions there, too
11:45:05 <planetmaker> not only 'now' but also your vision. Honestly
11:45:16 <planetmaker> But I'll shut up now
11:45:30 <planetmaker> I said what I had to say. You may follow advice or not. Your choice
11:46:03 <AveiMil> I understand your point, but I'm not ready yet.
11:49:02 <planetmaker> then you didn't understand my point ;-)
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12:57:55 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 18446744073709551616
12:58:52 <norbert79> @calc mymonthlyidealpay
12:58:52 <DorpsGek> norbert79: Error: 'mymonthlyidealpay' is not a defined function.
12:59:00 <norbert79> thats what my company tells me too
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13:19:11 <AveiMil> Damn @calc makes math homework much easier.
13:19:36 <FauxFaux> norbert79: It's a cunning plan to make sure you're aware of your worth in the current job market, which is benificial to them waitnoit'snot.
13:20:52 <norbert79> FauxFaux: Yeah, you see it's a bit different outside of the UK, and from what I have heard even UK struggles with similar issues... Many lay-offs, struggling market, etc
13:21:13 <norbert79> but my comment was mainly was just a joke for the @calc :)
13:21:34 <AveiMil> stop joking, I'm trying to focus on my math homework
13:22:07 <norbert79> AveiMil: Sorry... Is that for some new nuclear plant?
13:22:17 <norbert79> I see these calculations are quite comlicated
13:22:40 <AveiMil> sure are, I'm paid a lot of money to do this precision work.
13:23:24 <norbert79> AveiMil: Lucky you!
13:23:35 <norbert79> AveiMil: I wish I had to such complicated ones...
13:23:40 <AveiMil> Just a small error in my calculations and the whole place could go critical.
13:23:44 <planetmaker> it's not rocket science :-P
13:24:10 <AveiMil> I tried 9*9 on paper, but I ended up with 400 thousand and ninty eight. So I'm glad I double checked with @calc
13:24:54 <Ammler> AveiMil: please post that paper
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13:26:19 <AveiMil> "Lucy has nine apples and so does each of her 8 friends, how many apples is that total?"
13:26:42 <AveiMil> It's not 400 thousand and ninty eight, I'll tell you.
13:27:16 <norbert79> "Lucy later sells half of her apples and buys a 1911 for herself. How many apples are left for her after a full metal jacket?"
13:27:21 <AveiMil> Damn, the question asks to include my method.
13:27:31 <AveiMil> I'll just type "@calc 9*9"
13:27:50 <SmatZ> AveiMil: ^^^ I wouldn't trust DorpsGek that much
13:28:09 <norbert79> @calc 11111111*11111111
13:28:09 <DorpsGek> norbert79: 123456787654321
13:28:30 <norbert79> my favorite number :)
13:29:23 <SmatZ> @calc 4803839602528529*4803839602528529
13:29:23 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 23076874926835588402416896180224
13:29:29 <SmatZ> @base 10 16 23076874926835588402416896180224
13:29:29 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 123456789AC9210000000000000
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14:01:50 <SmatZ> it indicates nobody knew the result was wrong
14:05:59 <glx> well I guessed it should have been 123456789ABCDEF...
14:06:25 <SmatZ> [14:27:10] <SmatZ> @calc 3*2
14:06:27 <SmatZ> [14:27:11] <DorpsGek> 6.3
14:06:34 <SmatZ> actually this was the command :)
14:06:43 <SmatZ> but I forgot the SmatZ:
14:12:39 <DorpsGek> norbert79: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
14:12:49 <norbert79> Damn, it's still not 5
14:13:01 <norbert79> not even after the tax raises
14:19:51 <Mortomes|Work> Only for very high values of 2
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14:45:44 <SmatZ> he's so nice someone's heart will hurt for deleting that account :(
14:49:04 <Ammler> hehe, of course, mr. B. already found it too :-)
15:04:57 <AveiMil> Belugas, I hear you know your aircraft in OpenTTD?
15:06:37 <AveiMil> I've gone through every single aircraft in my NewGRF and rebalanced their Cost,RunningCost and Speed relative to each aircraft. Could you please take a look at it in the in-game GUI and see if the stats make sense and/or if there's possible game balance realted problems you can forsee?
15:07:41 * Belugas denies the request for quite a few reasons
15:07:45 <Yexo> AveiMil: you're wasting everyones time here, just make a forum post, attach your newgrf and ask for comments
15:07:49 <Belugas> one of wich is that i'm working
15:08:03 <Belugas> 2) i don't know THAT type of data
15:08:55 <Belugas> 3) i really am not too concerned about data making sens, which leads to realism, which i far from caring about :)
15:09:01 <Belugas> but thanks for asking
15:09:09 <planetmaker> 4) a review of stats can nicely be done by a table
15:09:37 <Ammler> 5) belugas is also something waterish :-)
15:09:43 <AveiMil> realism? nothing to do with realism though.
15:09:47 <AveiMil> I care not for realism.
15:09:49 <Belugas> soo Yexo and planetmaker have good suggestions
15:09:55 <AveiMil> Stats making sense = good game balance
15:10:24 <Belugas> i'm always waterish. other wise, the coffee would be eaten and not drank
15:13:40 <Belugas> AveiMil, honestly, i don't feel like going through that, really sorry
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15:15:04 <AveiMil> I just need one person that knows the game really way (gameplay wise, not technical side) that can help me out. Unfortunatly I havent logged enough game hours.
15:15:25 <AveiMil> Like I can balance the early game quite well, because it's easy to test, but to play to like 2010 takes forever
15:15:32 <norbert79> AveiMil: Thats why it's recomnmended relasing it through TT-Forums
15:15:47 <AveiMil> and I will, once I have all the basics down
15:15:58 <AveiMil> for all viehcle types
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15:28:22 <AveiMil> My OpenTTD fast forward button appears to be stuck
15:28:25 <AveiMil> anyone experienced that?
15:28:44 <SmatZ> AveiMil: are you holding tab/shift?
15:29:07 <AveiMil> now it just unstuck suddenly
15:29:09 <SmatZ> does it unstuck if you press tab or shift?
15:29:15 <Belugas> Jimmy Heandirx asked me the same thing a few years ago
15:30:04 <SmatZ> "few years" = whole Belugas's life
15:47:42 <Belugas> i'm standing with my headphones on my ears for like 15 minutes. And i forgot to lunch winamp...
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15:48:29 * planetmaker rarely eats software
15:48:48 * planetmaker also donates an 'a' to Belugas
15:49:45 <Belugas> a day to go back to sleep ...
15:50:06 <planetmaker> shit happens. Especially if lunch is forgotten ;-)
15:50:24 <Mortomes|Work> Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so.
15:50:44 <planetmaker> Must be an alternate time line to mine
15:50:57 <Mortomes|Work> Yours being the illusion.
15:51:16 <planetmaker> SmatZ, yeah... maybe... you know. Those punch cards back then ;-)
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16:56:30 * Belugas stomack announces lunch break
16:57:16 * planetmaker senses a dinner announcement in the rumblings from the stomach :-) Good point!
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17:14:30 <Belugas> pdfff.... michael canbe such a boring guy sometimes... or it's "TTDPatch has it for years", or it's "I've suggested a long time ago" or it's "I can't understand why OTTD does not do it like TTDPatch"
17:15:09 <Belugas> i think i'll add some stuff on my signature just to make eveyone understand that, and then he'll never have to tell the wolrd about it...
17:15:51 <planetmaker> :-D good idea ;-)
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17:37:02 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21121 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_road.cpp: -Fix (r21100): Use the cached max speed when calculating YAPF penalties for road vehicles.
17:39:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21122 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r21100): Use the cached max speed when checking road vehicle overtaking.
17:43:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21123 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Remove max_speed from the Vehicle class.
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18:20:26 <Qantourisc> Can i configure openttd to autofill all timetables ?
18:20:53 <planetmaker> you need to do that per set of orders
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18:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21124 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt irish.txt romanian.txt slovenian.txt):
18:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
18:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: irish - 3 changes by tem
18:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by kkmic
18:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovenian - 2 changes by ntadej
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19:17:20 <Eddi|nichZuHause> mingw/msys doesn't seem to contain "hexdump"
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20:08:49 <SmatZ> I commented out one line of code
20:09:06 <SmatZ> and today spent several hours finding why the code doesn't work :/
20:32:17 <Eddi|nichZuHause> when i call a .exe file from cmd, it immediately returns to command line
20:32:33 <Eddi|nichZuHause> but if i call a .bat file calling a .exe file, it locks...
20:32:53 <Eddi|nichZuHause> anyone know a way around that?
20:33:22 <Eddi|nichZuHause> no. not that kind of "lock"
20:33:29 <Eddi|nichZuHause> it runs the program fine
20:33:36 <Eddi|nichZuHause> but it does not return to command line
20:33:48 <Eddi|nichZuHause> unless i close the program
20:34:24 <Eddi|nichZuHause> like if you were on linux, the first version behaves like calling with &, and the second version without &
20:35:33 <Wolf01> try with "start /wait appname"
20:35:58 <Rubidium> Eddi|nichZuHause: I guess the .bat behaviour is backward compatibility
20:36:06 <Wolf01> but that should be the default behavior
20:37:33 <SmatZ> maybe that exe detects how it was run
20:38:21 <Eddi|nichZuHause> Wolf01: thanks, "start" is what i needed.
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20:47:11 <Eddi|nichZuHause> Q: "Where in Holland is Groningen?"
20:47:28 <Eddi|nichZuHause> A: "Groningen isn't in Holland at all."
20:47:58 * andythenorth can't be bothered to write any code
20:48:30 <Eddi|nichZuHause> at least you only need to write code. i need to reverse engineer a file format
20:50:15 <Alberth> Groningen is in Groningen
20:50:18 * andythenorth does a small draw
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21:02:11 <Eddi|nichZuHause> so far my file format seems as follows:
21:02:19 <Eddi|nichZuHause> 1) there appears to be a header
21:02:38 <Eddi|nichZuHause> 2) after the header, each plain-text line is preceeded by 32 bytes of binary data
21:03:03 <Eddi|nichZuHause> 3) this binary data may contain stray '\n' which aren't supposed to start a new line
21:04:30 <frosch123> hmm, does that mean the plain text is terminated with \n, not \0 :o
21:04:51 <frosch123> so it does not originate from c?
21:05:45 <Eddi|nichZuHause> the prefix is some sort of crypto-/hash-/validation-system
21:06:04 <Eddi|nichZuHause> which i don't care about
21:06:16 <Alberth> perhaps index into the entries?
21:07:05 <Eddi|nichZuHause> this last part is known from the sparse documentation that i found
21:12:16 <glx> <Eddi|nichZuHause> but it does not return to command line <-- usually .bat waits for return value
21:12:56 <glx> then it starts the next command
21:13:19 <andythenorth> only 6 FIRS industries not drawn
21:15:05 <glx> when exe is started from cmd it's fire&forget
21:18:09 <Alberth> andythenorth: white pipes on top of the storage tanks looks much better than the blue pipes imho
21:18:33 <Alberth> scared of running out of pixels to draw? :)
21:22:24 <Rubidium> sometimes I wished for a grf-grep
21:22:51 <Rubidium> so you could e.g. check which NewGRFs check for which other NewGRFs
21:23:54 <frosch123> doesn't grep already suffice for that?
21:24:16 <frosch123> i.e. aren't four bytes already unique enough to only find some matches?
21:27:47 <Rubidium> you can grep for binary data?
21:28:41 <frosch123> hmm, good question, never tried that :)
21:28:56 <frosch123> did you try reading fixed patterns from a file?
21:29:09 <frosch123> maybe that only restricts usage of \n and \0
21:29:36 <frosch123> though maybe there is an option to treat \0 as pattern separator, which might make \n to also work
21:30:50 <Rubidium> yay for 0 being used in GRFIDs :)
21:31:25 <frosch123> i guess grf2html is not able to write to stdout :s
21:40:04 <Eddi|nichZuHause> <+glx> <Eddi|nichZuHause> but it does not return to command line <-- usually .bat waits for return value <-- yes. but i once learned that "call" is suppsed to prevent that, but it didn't
21:40:43 <fonsinchen> you can convert binary data into hex using hexdump and then grep on that. Doesn't help if the value you're searching isn't aligned though.
21:40:44 <glx> well call is used to call another .bat IIRC
21:41:14 <Eddi|nichZuHause> yes, now i learned that "start" is doing what i wanted ;)
21:41:27 <Eddi|nichZuHause> that didn't exist back in my DOS days ;)
21:47:05 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i didn't have any OS/2 days
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21:57:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21125 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Fix (r20248): static NewGRFs shouldn't be added non-statically to a game
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23:17:15 <Eddi|nichZuHause> small brain twister [maybe i'm too tired]: with "map" i can execute a function on each array element. how would that look for an array of an array of elements?
23:18:06 <Eddi|nichZuHause> does that matter?
23:18:13 <SmatZ> you would execute the function for each array of elements
23:18:28 <SmatZ> I don't know python though
23:19:07 <avdg> tyepchecking would do in most languages
23:19:09 <Eddi|nichZuHause> something like map(f,a) => map(uncurry(map(f)),aa)
23:19:33 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i mean i have a nested array, and want to execute the function on each leaf element
23:19:37 <Eddi|nichZuHause> nothing to do with type checking
23:20:05 <Eddi|nichZuHause> how to do uncurrying in python?
23:20:43 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i suppose it can work with lambda, but that doesn't look cute...
23:22:12 <__ln__> i'm compiling the trunk, and there's a WARNING! who allowed that?
23:22:59 <Wolf01> [23:55:47] <__ln__> how do i do something to each element of a list in python? there must be a simple way.
23:23:00 <Wolf01> [23:55:56] <Eddi|zuHause> map
23:23:00 <Wolf01> [23:56:13] <Eddi|zuHause> map(lambda:, list)
23:23:00 <Wolf01> [23:56:15] <Eddi|zuHause> or so
23:23:25 <Eddi|nichZuHause> Wolf01: i do know that i wrote that.
23:23:35 <Eddi|nichZuHause> Wolf01: i'm one level higher than that
23:23:58 <__ln__> or was it the other Eddi who was at home
23:24:26 <Hirundo> Is the number of 'layers' in the nested array known?
23:24:52 <Eddi|nichZuHause> yes, it's fixed
23:25:07 <Eddi|nichZuHause> likely 2, maybe 3, but fixed
23:26:23 <SmatZ> __ln__: no warning for me
23:27:00 <Eddi|nichZuHause> s/too/either/
23:27:13 <__ln__> src/table/settings.h:676: warning: integer overflow in expression
23:27:15 * Rubidium wonders who's compiling trunk with assertions disabled and with gcc 4.4+
23:27:22 <Wolf01> maybe it's because I'm not compiling
23:28:25 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i suppose "map(lambda x: map(f,x), aa)" is the closest i can get
23:28:53 <Rubidium> or is it one of the "only happens with Apple's GCC"-issues?
23:29:42 <Wolf01> is python so weird? brainfuck is plain text in comparison
23:30:25 <Eddi|nichZuHause> it is only getting weird if you think in functional languages and present that to others ;)
23:31:09 <Wolf01> I have only 2 possible
23:31:36 <Wolf01> 1) human readable language
23:31:42 <Wolf01> 2) machine readable language
23:32:06 <Eddi|nichZuHause> in a functional language i would write like "map (map f) aa"
23:32:14 <Wolf01> the first one is basic/c++, the second one is ASM
23:32:17 <SmatZ> __ln__: what combination of compiler,OS and configure flags are you using?
23:32:37 <Wolf01> gah, it's raining again :(
23:33:03 <Eddi|nichZuHause> or worse: "map (map (f . g)) aa"
23:33:15 <Eddi|nichZuHause> and i'm trying to translate that to python
23:33:16 <__ln__> SmatZ: powerpc-apple-darwin8-g++-4.0.1 (GCC) 4.0.1 (Apple Computer, Inc. build 5370)
23:33:16 <SmatZ> something like that, yes
23:33:23 <glx> add some parenthesis and it looks like lisp :)
23:33:55 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i haven't "met" lisp yet. this is more like haskell
23:34:02 <Hirundo> You could try something along the lines of reduce(lambda x, y: x + y, some_list) to flatten a list
23:34:11 <__ln__> ./configure --without-lzma --without-liblzo2
23:34:23 <Hirundo> Although I can't imagine there isn't a builtin *somewhere*
23:34:53 <XeryusTC> is there any way to stop openttd from saving using lzma?
23:35:07 <SmatZ> XeryusTC: edit openttd.cfg
23:35:13 <Eddi|nichZuHause> XeryusTC: yes, there is a setting
23:35:16 <SmatZ> there a "savegame_format", or so
23:35:24 <Rubidium> 1) edit the config file
23:35:29 <Rubidium> 2) edit the source code
23:35:35 <Rubidium> 3) compile with --without-lzma
23:36:29 * Rubidium wonders what XeryusTC's reasons are to not use lzma
23:36:55 <XeryusTC> server doesnt support it
23:37:01 <XeryusTC> but i'm generating the game locally
23:38:05 <XeryusTC> what would be the proper setting for savegame_format then? just "zlib"?
23:38:19 <Rubidium> or "none" (the fastest!)
23:38:34 <Hirundo> Eddi|nichZuHause: sum(some_list, []) flattens a list
23:38:36 <Eddi|nichZuHause> is it not "gzip"?
23:38:49 <Rubidium> for zlib and lzma you can add :0 - :9 to specify the compression level
23:38:55 <Eddi|nichZuHause> Hirundo: but i don't want to flatten the list, i want to keep the structure
23:39:09 <Rubidium> where :9 is usually the best, but usually takes the most CPU as well
23:39:12 <SmatZ> __ln__: ok, "known" problem
23:39:13 <SmatZ> SDT_CONDVAR(GameSettings, game_creation.generation_seed, SLE_UINT32, 30, SL_MAX_VERSION, 0, 0, GENERATE_NEW_SEED, 0, UINT32_MAX, 0, STR_NULL, NULL),
23:39:28 <SmatZ> some gcc versions don't like that
23:39:33 <Hirundo> You want to map a tree of items to a tree of values?
23:39:44 <SmatZ> probably storing UINT32_MAX to int
23:40:47 <XeryusTC> Rubidium: anyway, thanks :)
23:40:51 <XeryusTC> will check if it works now :)
23:40:59 <Rubidium> SmatZ: it's casting it to ptrdiff_t
23:41:10 <SmatZ> Rubidium: it's the same as int on 32bit systems
23:41:19 <SmatZ> (happens only at 32bit systems)
23:41:40 <Rubidium> SmatZ: but explicitly casting an unsigned value to signed shouldn't be a problem
23:41:47 <Rubidium> (except when the compiler is bugged ofcourse)
23:42:02 <SmatZ> well, it doesn't fit in the signed value
23:42:14 <Eddi|nichZuHause> Hirundo: suppose i have an array of strings, and want to do ord(char) on every character of all strings
23:42:17 <Rubidium> neither does -1 in unsigned, yet it's used quite often
23:42:31 <Eddi|nichZuHause> map(ord, string) -- this works for single strings
23:42:31 <SmatZ> but if we cast to unsiged, we could get a warning when casting negative values
23:43:55 * Rubidium wouldn't be bothered about it
23:44:00 <Eddi|nichZuHause> like ['AB','CD'] would become [[65,66],[67,68]
23:44:01 <Rubidium> and why does it show up now?
23:44:17 <Rubidium> it's been that way for quite a long time hasn't it?
23:44:27 <Rubidium> so it's probably something else that's causing the error
23:44:51 <Rubidium> so, who's going to bisect that one?
23:45:29 <XeryusTC> Rubidium: thanks again, it worked indeed :)
23:45:32 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: like this? [map(ord, string) for string in my_list]
23:45:44 <Yexo> although it creates a copy of the list, it doesn't modify my_list
23:46:07 <XeryusTC> SmatZ, eddi, thank you guys too :)
23:46:35 <SmatZ> if I change that GENERATE_NEW_SEED to 10, it doesn't warn (so it's not that UINT32_MAX constant)
23:46:42 <SmatZ> Rubidium: I will bisect
23:46:55 <SmatZ> though I remember seeing it in the past
23:59:44 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by smatz :: r19870 /trunk/src (table/settings.h viewport.cpp) (2010-05-21 05:42:41 UTC)
23:59:44 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i think i found another detail of my file format
23:59:45 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: -Codechange: silence some of GCC 3.3 warnings
23:59:56 <SmatZ> Rubidium: the warning is caused by this :<
23:59:58 <Eddi|nichZuHause> the first 16 bytes of the line are actually belonging to the previous line
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