IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-11-03
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08:02:33 <xiong> Why is OTTD so very demanding of CPU, even when paused? What is it doing?
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08:06:15 <Ammler> xiong: while paused, then you have something broken, maybe your sound?
08:10:19 <xiong> Ammler, There is a known conflict when running openttd with Ubuntu, namely pulseaudio. It's ugly, very ugly. I have disabled the sound set, turned the system volume to 0, and tried to kill pulseaudio -- both ordinarily and by the method outlined in the pulseaudio manpage.
08:11:16 <xiong> By doing this, and by re-killing pulseaudio immediately previous to attempting to quit openttd, I have been able to get out of the latter without it hanging and requiring me to kill *it*.
08:11:17 <Ammler> well, volume to 0 might not help :-)
08:11:37 <xiong> Don't see how it can hurt, either.
08:12:14 <Ammler> what does known_bugs tell about?
08:12:31 <xiong> Basically, I'm willing to live entirely without sound in order to play the damn game. You suggest I might have to work harder to kill pulseaudio, even with no sound set?
08:12:45 <xiong> Um, this *is* a known bug.
08:13:16 <Ammler> yes, it is, quite long already
08:14:02 <xiong> Yah, and on the list of 'not to fix', which is understandable, since pulseaudio is one of those tragic "we will now fix everything" lashup wrappers.
08:14:13 <xiong> ... which should never have been.
08:14:30 <xiong> ... which would work just fine so long as everyone agreed to buy into it.
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08:15:08 <Ammler> does it work, if you start openttd wiht -snull?
08:15:15 <xiong> For the time being, I figure I can live without sound. Down the road, I should probably look into building a more robust sound solution entirely.
08:15:38 <xiong> Dunno; didn't try. Disabled sound in GUI.
08:16:30 <xiong> Game Options -> Base sounds set -> NoSound
08:17:18 <xiong> Let me see. I'd rather push on it from the system end and really eliminate pulseaudio. I need to poke around with the config file for it; apparently, whenever I kill it, it restarts.
08:17:20 <Ammler> that's not the same...
08:19:44 <xiong> Ammler, Well, let me try it. I have to do a bit of study-up.
08:21:31 <Terkhen> good morning planetmaker
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08:34:26 <xiong> Well, Ammler, this is quite annoying. I did 'nohup openttd -snull' and when I closed the terminal from which I started, the game popped up a do-you-want-to-quit box, to which it will not respond at all. It's hung.
08:34:52 <xiong> FWIW, it did not seem to hog CPU quite as much but it's hard to say.
08:35:09 * dih has no issues with openttd on ubuntu
08:35:18 <Ammler> openttd has its own option to go in background
08:41:02 <xiong> dih, Like to talk to you about that.
08:41:50 <xiong> Which version Ubuntu? Have you run openttd under 9.10 = karmic?
08:43:57 <xiong> Ammler, I tried also nohup ... & and I didn't get my prompt back in the terminal. However, now closing the terminal and openttd continues to run. Also, far, far less CPU time used. I call this success, thank you enormously.
08:44:19 <xiong> dih, Well, what about the pulseaudio conflict?
08:44:34 <Ammler> [09:35] <Ammler> openttd has its own option to go in background
08:44:44 <xiong> Or should I ask, are you *still* on Hardy?
08:44:56 <xiong> Ammler, Yah. But, this works.
08:46:10 <xiong> manpage says, fork into background, dedicated server only.
08:46:53 <dih> i am no longer on hardy and i had no pulseaudo conflict with openttd
08:48:34 <xiong> It's a non-issue. I can start up with the rubric 'nohup openttd -snull &' and be okay; I'm thrilled. The game is not even eating truly excessive CPU when running, with trains and horse carriages all over the place.
08:50:38 <xiong> 'Thrilled' is putting it mildly. I got sucked into the game almost a month ago and have done essentially no work of any kind, because I'm reluctant to quite OTTD even briefly, lest I lose my careful arrangement of sticky windows; and the game was eating so much time that nothing else worked well, not even a text editor.
08:51:24 <xiong> There is at least one person who is using my code who owes you a favor, Ammler.
08:51:35 * xiong makes hot chocolate for everyone
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09:02:36 <xiong> Oh, that's ever so nice.
09:03:18 <xiong> dih, I cannot even begin to guess why our experiences differ. Could be anything.
09:04:11 <xiong> From now on, everyone entering #openttd is required to {bow} in the direction of Ammler. So say I.
09:05:06 <xiong> You cannot imagine how I feel about this. You are a wizard. I take my hat off to you, Sir.
09:05:30 <Ammler> mäh, I can't eat that :-P
09:05:33 <dih> xiong, if you turn down the need of expressing every thought you have a little, you will find yourself on less ignore lists
09:05:59 <xiong> I would never, ever, have tried such a thing. I assumed that when I disabled sound in the Game Options, I had done all I could from the openttd side and had to work on my system.
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09:06:27 * planetmaker sees six lines without context
09:06:40 <xiong> dih, I would *prefer* to be ignored by people who think I'm a fool. Saves me the trouble of proving it to them.
09:06:40 <planetmaker> and hello Ammler & SmatZ
09:08:02 <dih> xiong, i am actually not trying to be mean to you, just telling you as nobody else has*
09:08:09 <dih> * managed to express it in an understandable way
09:12:32 <xiong> dih, I understand. Sorry if you feel I'm foolish, or loud, or silly. Please try to understand that I've been me for quite a few years; this is not a new issue. I decided some time ago to be happy in spite of it. It's the best I can do.
09:15:06 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: I don't recognize you.
09:18:56 <Ammler> stupid bouncer restarts :-P
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09:28:19 <planetmaker> now, that was unexpected
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09:42:11 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: planetmaker
09:44:51 *** planetmaker was kicked by peter1138 (test :p)
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09:56:08 <Scuddles> peter1138: Better sharpen your face, it looks a little blurred
09:56:15 * Terkhen wonders how many ships are too many ships
09:58:02 <theholyduck> Terkhen, you dont need many for serious network lag
10:00:12 <planetmaker> Terkhen: depends. On then umber of buoys :-)
10:00:25 <planetmaker> creating orders for ships is a pain...
10:00:38 <planetmaker> at least if you do something else than a ferry over to the other side of a canal
10:01:17 <planetmaker> hm... s/en u/e nu/
10:02:30 <Terkhen> my problem is that I need a game with a lot of ships, and only ships... otherwise the rest of vehicles will not let me measure how ship performance changes
10:02:33 <Terkhen> trans ai is doing a good job, we are already at 120 ships
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10:09:36 <peter1138> Scuddles, well, it's out of focus, innit
10:09:46 <peter1138> What with the GIANT CREEPER
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10:13:00 <planetmaker> he... ok, such game we indeed did not have. Though you could have stopped all other vehicles ;-) - But we only have 114 ships
10:13:36 <TrueBrain> GENERAL NOTICE: new certificate is uploaded, expect a warning from your browser/email application/what ever you use to access ssl connections to openttd.org :p
10:15:02 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Uh? Why would a _new_ cert trigger a warning?
10:15:12 <blathijs> It's not self-signed or something, right?
10:15:29 <Rubidium> it's cacert signed, why not all browsers seem to support
10:16:21 <TrueBrain> and as long as CACert is not a valid root CA, it will remain an issue :)
10:24:11 <Terkhen> they have now reached 200 ships, that should be enough :P
10:24:35 <planetmaker> Does it build buoys?
10:24:52 <planetmaker> hm... Feature request: Autosignal -> Autobuoys
10:24:57 <Terkhen> the routes are very short anyways
10:25:35 <Ammler> planetmaker: that would also need Autoorders ;-)
10:25:58 <planetmaker> look at start and destination. Build a buoy, if not found in the next N tiles one on the way. Yes, it'd need some partial auto-orders
10:26:37 <planetmaker> If there is a usable buoy already: use and insert that instead of building a new one
10:26:53 <planetmaker> it'd need to be a button in the ship orders menu, though
10:27:19 <Ammler> kind of transparent canals
10:27:34 <Terkhen> to decide a good route between start and destination you would need a good pathfinder anyways :P
10:28:53 <planetmaker> Terkhen: it could use the same path finder as now. But just calling it onece and after having found a route placing those buoys.
10:29:02 <planetmaker> it'd be an improvement :-)
10:29:27 <Terkhen> given the number of times I needed to create canals for the AI ships, OPF is not an option... I guess that you could use YAPF since it is only going to be called once
10:30:02 <planetmaker> but it's IIRC a pain on maps with lots of water which is not canal or river-like
10:30:08 <Terkhen> wasn't it really slow for ships?
10:30:25 <planetmaker> yapf is nice if you have river boats only
10:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the original pathfinder completely fails on rivers
10:46:03 <Terkhen> or in very rough scenarios
10:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> idea: automatically switch pathfinder between yapf/original: on river/coast and ocean/coast tiles, use yapf, on river/lake or ocean/open sea tiles, use original?
10:49:53 <planetmaker> there's currently no concept of those different water tiles, though
10:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but there should be ;)
10:50:26 <planetmaker> go right ahead :-P
10:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and water tiles have plenty of free bits to store this stuff
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11:33:45 <__ln__> what's "for x in $(cat languages) ; do somecommand $x ; done" in windowish?
11:34:19 <__ln__> assuming 'languages' is a file containing something like "en fr de da" on one line
11:36:35 <Yexo> install mingw/cygwin and use the same syntax :p
11:37:58 <__ln__> that's the plan C... but surely something this simple must be possible and easy on a state-of-the art operating system as it is possible on 30-year-old *nix-based ones.
11:38:45 <FauxFaux> Unfortunately cmd is fully compatiable (tm) with DOS.
11:38:46 <Terkhen> you can do a lot of things with batch files in windows, but the syntax is a nightmare
11:39:11 <SmatZ> FauxFaux: cmd is actually better than command.com
11:39:31 <SmatZ> we had several lections about "what can one do with cmd.exe"
11:39:36 <SmatZ> and there was a lot of stuff :)
11:39:43 <SmatZ> I have forgotten it all though
11:39:55 <Yexo> for %%X in (en fr de da) do (echo %%X) <- like that
11:39:59 <Yexo> X must be a single-letter
11:40:13 <Yexo> and no idea how to read those languages from a file
11:41:21 <FauxFaux> You can /F usebackq %x (`type langs`) but it then interprets it per line.
11:41:33 <Yexo> oh, it's %X, %%X is for use in a batch program
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12:26:13 <__ln__> i write a temporary .bat file in parts, then copy the parts together and call the result file. so clean and elegant.
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15:41:10 <Belugas> funny... top banner shows me cabinet speakers, exactly what i'm interested in lately...
15:41:31 <Belugas> at one point, it showed me camera lenses
15:41:38 <Belugas> i suspec some kind of spy techno :)
15:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it's all one big conspiracy.
15:42:28 * norbert79 sees no Adverts for a very long time by now :)
15:43:59 <Belugas> not scary, amusing :) if it shows me stuff i'd like to buy, why not :)
15:44:22 <Belugas> it might be pure coincidence, althoght i don't believe that
15:45:17 <norbert79> Nah, they are scanning your behaviours with cookies, collecting data, etc
15:45:42 <norbert79> thats why I don't allow any "audit" kind of sites nor any market research sites to place cookies or any trackers on my PC
15:54:54 <planetmaker> just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not following me.
15:58:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you sound like Sacro ;)
15:59:10 <Eddi|zuHause> btw. you noticed how Sacro stopped talking here about the same time as Bjarni left? ;)
16:01:22 <planetmaker> the @seen doesn't quite support that ;-)
16:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> no, because it's not making statistics over longer time ;)
16:06:19 <blathijs> Belugas: Perhaps you should think about being interested in the cool mind-reading technology they use and you'll get a cool offer ;-)
16:12:04 <Belugas> i'd love ot integrate it !
16:12:11 <Belugas> ok... what his is PIN?
16:15:13 <fjb> Oh, Sacro is not talking here any more? I always knew there was something is was not missing. Just didn't know what it was.
16:18:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx_
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16:20:27 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Sacro was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <Sacro> night Terkhen
16:25:26 <fjb> Oh, he is still here? I did also not notice.
16:26:08 <SmatZ> wheeee my printer is finally working under x86_64 linux! (with 32bit drivers :)
16:26:43 <SmatZ> it wasn't a pain, but there were no error logs at all...
16:27:42 <glx> printing on linux is still that hard ?
16:28:02 <planetmaker> usually not... if cups knows the printer
16:28:16 <planetmaker> or the printer works with a generic driver
16:28:25 <OwenS> And you're not using something like Fedora which is allergic to things like HPLIP
16:29:17 <glx> I think I should have no problems with wy amstrad dmp-2160 (epson compatible)
16:29:28 <SmatZ> that's a general problem with proprietary interfaces and drivers:(
16:30:22 <Eddi|zuHause> short non-representative statistics: 2006: ~14000 lines, 2007: ~12000 lines, 2008: ~8000 lines, 2009: ~4000 lines, 2010: ~600 lines
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16:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> for bjarni: 2006: ~19000 lines, 2007: ~25000 lines, 2008: ~15000 lines, 2009: ~1500 lines, 2010: ~500 lines
16:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> where 2006 i have only incomplete logs
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17:50:40 <Belugas> cool... Marshall MG cabinets now :)
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18:41:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "Fox News has its own exit polls numbers.
18:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> It asked voters how their vote was related to President Obama:
18:41:05 <Eddi|zuHause> 38% said it was to express opposition to Obama's policies
18:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> 37% said it was to show support for President Obama
18:41:08 <Eddi|zuHause> 36% said he was no factor in their voting
18:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Now, that actually adds up to 111% – don't ask me, I just wrote down the numbers."
18:44:35 <Prof_Frink> There isn't a unicode symbol for pernelson.
18:45:15 <Rubidium> maybe the numbers are nonary?
18:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21077 /trunk/src/lang/danish.txt:
18:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: danish - 8 changes by beruic
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19:35:58 <Qantourisc> What are the conditions for automatic servicing ?
19:38:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: depending on settings: either "service every X days" or "service when rating drops by Y%"
19:38:52 <Qantourisc> there is a depo in reach
19:38:56 <Qantourisc> but the routing said
19:39:02 <Qantourisc> "no i'm not intrested" :)
19:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: then, depot must be maximum a certain distance [as counted in pathfinder penalties, not real tiles] away
19:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: and when using path signals, the path must not be reserved past the depot when making the decision. so put a signal shortly before the relevant switch
19:41:43 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... my system feels awfully sluggish today
19:43:26 <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: could be that it wasn't a single-choice poll, but a multi-choice poll?
19:43:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth: that doesn't really make sense.
19:44:16 <Xaroth> Fox did that before iirc
19:44:23 <Xaroth> like a poll with 20-odd questions
19:44:35 <Xaroth> they picked out the results of 4 of the questions, and used them as comparison
19:44:41 <Xaroth> as if they were 4 options of 1 poll
19:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth: that might be possible, but that still means that some people gave non-sensical answers, like "i voted both in support and against obama"
19:57:08 <Xaroth> yer talking about americans here...
19:57:14 <Xaroth> i mean.. they get away with polls like that
20:01:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess you're right...
20:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause> although, "FOX News" is way worse than "generic american"...
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20:50:18 <Qantourisc> What are the advantages of roro ?
20:50:56 <Eddi|zuHause> trains don't get in each others way that often
20:52:02 <Qantourisc> but it needs a hell of a lot more place :)
20:52:22 <Qantourisc> and how is the turn-around typically handled in roro ?
20:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> trains don't turn around in roro. that's the point
20:53:10 <Qantourisc> avdg: i mean, what if you "need to get back" ?
20:53:37 <Qantourisc> no no the platform
20:53:57 <Qantourisc> generaly speeking ======Station A=========Station B========
20:54:06 <Qantourisc> if i want a train to run between station A and B
20:54:15 <Qantourisc> = <- these are tracks
20:54:23 <Qantourisc> yes on a common "bus" :)
20:55:08 <Qantourisc> the train needs to flip around, how is this typically handled ?
20:55:15 <Qantourisc> right now i have a loop :)
20:55:21 <avdg> a terminal station, or a loop
20:55:21 <Qantourisc> (or a piece of track)
20:58:55 * Qantourisc didn't find a 2ways station on the inet :/
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21:33:03 <planetmaker> hello andythenorth_
21:34:06 * andythenorth_ has been to the big London
21:34:11 <andythenorth_> where there is a tube strike
21:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds fun :p
21:36:03 <Prof_Frink> Have you been singing Amateur Transplants?
21:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> a few years ago they had a story on tv how they put a toll on driving through the city with the car. they automatically scanned the license plates, and then billed the people. but that didn't work on germans, because they couldn't get the names to the license plates
21:38:45 <fonsinchen> Why can't I set a road vehicle to "go via"? Has it always been like that?
21:39:10 <fonsinchen> If I set "no loading" and then "no unloading" the "no loading" reverted and vice versa.
21:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: that should be possible
21:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: yes, that part is annoying :(
21:39:39 <fonsinchen> So, how do I do it?
21:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: "go via" is in the leftmost dropdown
21:40:52 <fonsinchen> Is that a problem of my too technical perspective or did someone simply forget that case?
21:41:31 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: it was deliberately refused. i brought that up multiple times in the past, but nobody changed it.
21:41:45 <fonsinchen> Was there a reason for that?
21:42:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference between "go via" and "no loading and no unloading" would be that the vehicle stops and can be timetabled to wait in the second case
21:42:30 <Rubidium> Q: should no loading + no unloading stop?
21:42:53 <Rubidium> but then it's not the go via order fonsinchen was looking for
21:43:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem in that case is communicating that to the user properly
21:43:54 <Rubidium> in any case, I always keep forgetting these "small" things
21:44:06 <fonsinchen> Rubidium: that depends on the default setting for non-stop
21:44:44 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: non-stop has nothing to do with the stopping behaviour at the destination
21:44:51 <fonsinchen> I mean "stop" in the sense of "stop at inbetween stations"
21:45:04 <fonsinchen> of course if it neither loads nor unloads it doesn't stop
21:45:20 <fonsinchen> at the station where it should (not) do so.
21:45:21 <Rubidium> but then it's a go via order, and you should use that
21:45:36 <Rubidium> as when it should not stop the timetable should not allocated time for stopping
21:45:49 <fonsinchen> The interface is confusing for, but maybe that's only because I know the internals
21:46:09 <Rubidium> which is basically why no loading + no unloading made no sense to me when I introduced it
21:46:20 <Rubidium> not sure whether that was before or after timetables though
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21:50:33 <fonsinchen> btw, cargodist supports "leave empty" with any number of subsequent "no loading" orders now.
21:51:59 <fonsinchen> but I'll reintroduce the 2nd pass of the MCF solver. It's good to show people where the problems are, even if it change anything about the game mechanics
21:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but i really miss a "timetabled stop without cargo changes" option
21:57:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: other solution could be allowing timetabling go-via orders, and if waittime > 0, then the vehicle would stop (even at waypoints)
21:59:41 <Eddi|zuHause> sideeffect of this would then be, that the vehicle also stops briefly even if it is late
21:59:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't see a sensible way to predict that
22:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so it can't really be solved
22:02:30 <Rubidium> avdg, you're adv on the wiki right? If so, what translator did you use?
22:02:56 <avdg> and google translate sometimes
22:03:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21078 /trunk/src/table/settings.h: -Fix [FS#4203]: snowline didn't want to be very high
22:03:43 <avdg> actually "avd" but whatever
22:04:40 <Rubidium> please rethink "inhoudstafel" :)
22:04:58 <avdg> I couldn't think at a better word at that moment :p
22:06:41 <Rubidium> table, in the context of a table of contents, should be literally translated as "tabel".
22:06:52 <Rubidium> even then, inhoudsopgave is way better
22:07:13 <avdg> that 2nd is better, agreed
22:07:14 <Rubidium> inhoudstafel is just funny: "Table (the piece of furniture) of contents"
22:08:29 <avdg> funny to see that the dutch translation gets highlighted today
22:08:39 <avdg> (just saw an other guy editing the dutch wiki)
22:19:50 <Xaroth> Inhoudstafel isn't really the correct translation, period :P
22:20:06 <Xaroth> pretty much everybody uses Inhoudsopgave
22:22:59 <avdg> Lets see how hard it is to change it :)
22:35:55 *** planetmaker is now known as moonraker
22:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> in german one would say "Inhaltsverzeichnis"
22:38:28 <Eddi|zuHause> he's on the moon, obviously
22:38:29 *** moonraker is now known as planetmaker
22:41:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so... freshly installed windows, 23% fragmentation...
22:42:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that is relevant when it's a virtual machine, in a file, on an encrypted disk.
22:43:24 <avdg> I didn't mean it serious ;-)
23:11:25 <Qantourisc> Is there a way to find the trains passing at certain stations ?
23:11:47 <planetmaker> passing: not. having the station in its orders: yes
23:12:04 <Eddi|zuHause> click on the station, and click on the little train icon in the lower right of the window
23:12:05 <Qantourisc> train in order i meant sorry
23:12:19 <planetmaker> then what eddi says
23:17:35 <SmatZ> Yexo: you were a tiny bit faster in replying to Kogut than me :)
23:18:01 <SmatZ> that's interesting because the task has been open for ~1 hour
23:18:10 <SmatZ> and then two people reply within a minute :)
23:39:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
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continue to next day ⏵
