IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-11-02
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02:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so... i checked the (barely documented) var B2 (== v->vehstatus), and in bit 0 of that it stores VS_HIDDEN. but how do i access this var from the adjacent wagon [not front engine]?
02:58:20 <Sevalecan> does amount of passengers affect how much a city grows?
02:58:46 * Sevalecan looks at the wiki :P
03:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the only variable that affects town growth is number of serviced stations in the last ~20 days
03:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (so 5 bus stops is better than one train station)
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04:44:55 <planetmaker> [05:42] <Eddi|zuHause> so... i checked the (barely documented) var B2 (== v->vehstatus), and in bit 0 of that it stores VS_HIDDEN. but how do i access this var from the adjacent wagon [not front engine]? <-- IIRC you don't access any variable from other vehicles except the front engine
04:45:11 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: the only thing you can access are random bits
04:45:37 <planetmaker> good morning #openttd also
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07:26:18 <Qantourisc> Silly question: wouldn't 2 engine increase reliability ? :)
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07:33:11 <planetmaker> it would decrease reliability
07:33:17 <planetmaker> one engine: reliability p
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07:34:13 <planetmaker> --> chance to stay w/o break down: p
07:34:37 <planetmaker> --> two engines: chance to stay w/o break down: p^2. And as p in 0...1 follows p^2 < p
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08:48:38 <norbert79> Morning Guest1600 :}
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09:09:17 <dihedral> is it even possible to implement that easily?
09:10:02 <dihedral> i.e. by adding penalty to 'whatever imposes a limit'
09:10:27 <dihedral> i just do not know if anybody would dare to dig into yapf :-P
09:16:06 <norbert79> dihedral: Idea sounds good, but this has to be handled like the signals...
09:17:10 <norbert79> dihedral: If the speed limiter sign is placed, then from that point on every track has to have that speed, but if there is a speed limiter, and another sign 5 tiles after lifting up the rules, then it's like a signal after one signal
09:17:18 <norbert79> huhh, how shall I explain :)
09:17:56 <dihedral> i was not talking about signals :-P
09:18:14 <norbert79> but the same methodology should be also possible for this feature request
09:18:31 <dihedral> and i was not talking about imposing the speed limit, i was more thinking of imposing a penalty,
09:18:38 <norbert79> instead of having 'signals' blocking some parts, they should only define the speed limit like for bridges
09:18:51 <dihedral> which would be a way to stop fast trains passing a marker for lower max speeds
09:19:14 <norbert79> dihedral: Well, how is this being achived in case of bridges?
09:19:30 <dihedral> bridges are something completely different
09:19:31 <norbert79> bridges also do slow down trains
09:19:35 <dihedral> and have a defined beginning and end
09:19:47 <dihedral> and are more like tunnels
09:19:58 <norbert79> söo you see an issue while combining the bridge methoodolgy with the signal way of doing things?
09:21:06 <dihedral> say you have some sort of marker, whatever that be
09:21:27 <dihedral> defining a 'max speed' at marker, which has an affect on the penalty in yapf
09:21:48 <norbert79> Ah, so you were more like thinking about the coding part
09:21:51 <dihedral> if the station is longer / shorter than the train itself, it imposes a certain penalty
09:22:00 <dihedral> thus trains try to find the route with less penalty
09:22:16 <dihedral> norbert79, i do not play the game ;-)
09:22:31 <norbert79> dihedral: Ok, now THATS surprises me :D
09:22:46 <norbert79> I thought whoever codes also plays
09:22:57 <dihedral> i bet you will find more people who code and do not play :-)
09:23:33 <dihedral> i test what i code, yes, but i do not play it :-)
09:24:32 <norbert79> I am more a gamer, than a coder
09:24:53 <norbert79> but I do not play everything, my favorites are life-like games and strategy
09:25:41 <norbert79> (What I mean, that I love an FPS, if it has the most real sorrounding, or focuses on reality, real circumstances)
09:26:03 <norbert79> Like Swat 4... That rocks, just started playing it
09:27:51 <norbert79> Noldo: I wasn't talking about the Matrix :D
09:29:37 <norbert79> Yet I would try that for sure, except the dying part :D
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09:44:12 <dihedral> the only thing i do 'play' every once in a bit is FlightGear
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11:54:14 <xiong> I seem to have returned.
11:57:04 <xiong> San Francisco sports fans are... celebrating... by burning mattresses in the street and, in at least one instance, walking on an overhead power line.
11:57:24 <SpComb> it's not about the sport it's about the celebrating
12:08:12 <SpComb> pfft, hardly that insightful
12:08:39 <SpComb> I did just join a project's channel to constructively flame them, that was insightful
12:22:31 <xiong> 'Constructively flame' -- do not attempt this at home.
12:22:44 <xiong> Professional driver, closed course.
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12:54:16 <planetmaker> salut sir Belugas
12:54:55 <Belugas> ben lbonjour toai la...
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14:08:41 <kenneth> how do you run multiple instances of openttd on a debian box
14:08:46 <kenneth> can i use the same install
14:08:55 <kenneth> openttd -D -c openttd1.cfg
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14:09:00 <kenneth> openttd -D -c openttd2.cfg
14:09:04 <kenneth> and define seperate ports ?
14:09:06 <ccfreak2k> FauxFaux, I know people who do worse.
14:09:41 <planetmaker> that's the way to go
14:10:01 <kenneth> im pretty sure it threw a wobbly when i tried that last night
14:10:17 <kenneth> ah i think i know whats up,
14:10:28 <kenneth> if 2 servers have the same host name will one die on advertise broadcast
14:10:49 <planetmaker> possibly. You want unique names and port
14:10:53 <kenneth> got startup scripts that define the server name
14:10:59 <kenneth> and one set of scripts per install ?
14:11:21 <planetmaker> the server name is given in the cfg afaik
14:12:02 <kenneth> yes but when game quits
14:12:09 <kenneth> it strips the " from the .cfg
14:12:18 <kenneth> server_name = "Cool Server" becomes
14:12:25 <kenneth> server_name = Cool Server
14:12:34 <kenneth> so i define the server_name is on_server.scr
14:13:08 <planetmaker> You want the name to contain the quotation marks?
14:14:20 <kenneth> suppose could make the cfg read only
14:15:21 <planetmaker> hm.. yet another name which tries to get to the top of the list by using non-letter characters ;-)
14:15:33 <kenneth> i didnt want to own up to that
14:15:42 <kenneth> i assume that is highly frowned upon
14:16:00 <planetmaker> look at the list - half the servers do that.
14:16:08 <planetmaker> kind of an endless race
14:17:57 <kenneth> im just a naive simpleton, with 2 debian boxes, 100mb/s connection, and a lot of spare time and interest
14:18:31 <kenneth> ive messed around with the source already in visual C++ and on the debian box
14:18:43 <kenneth> so eventually i would like to compile my own custom server that talks to vanilla clients
14:18:45 <planetmaker> a good server is mostly characterised by an admin who's around and the ingenuity of the maps :-)
14:19:41 <Rubidium> luckily over half of the servers have no players, so no need for admins :)
14:20:35 <planetmaker> might be related :-)
14:21:11 <planetmaker> our Welcome server was funnily immediately populated - and seems to keep being populated
14:21:44 <kenneth> well i play as much as i can
14:21:49 <kenneth> and have a few people that keep coming back
14:22:02 <kenneth> and one guy that is so keen has decided he wants to do his own config, grfs and save
14:22:06 <kenneth> so im happy to host it
14:22:11 <kenneth> get a little community going :)
14:23:30 <planetmaker> I might be biased, but I'd consider it nice, if there were another well-played server which were NOT modified :-)
14:24:48 <kenneth> well the one thats on now is unmodified
14:24:55 <kenneth> i personally cant be bothered with grfs
14:25:04 <kenneth> play the game the way it was meant to be played :D
14:25:13 <planetmaker> They make for easier modification than patching the binaries
14:25:59 <kenneth> what grf or saves or scenarios ?
14:26:00 <planetmaker> (besides being the 'officially accepted' way to modify gameplay - in a sense that we can use resulting bug reports :-)
14:26:21 <kenneth> which is the officially accepted way sorry ?
14:26:30 <planetmaker> ^ talking about using grfs
14:27:34 <norbert79> GRF-s are good. It extends the game in a way, which the original game can be still followed well, and does not require patching. Like consider house GRF-s
14:27:45 <planetmaker> you'll be amazed what amount of variety to game play they offer
14:27:48 <norbert79> but it can give additional functionality too
14:28:04 <norbert79> and it's challenging creating them too
14:29:45 <SmatZ> hello planetmaker and norbert79
14:32:52 <kenneth> can you create basic game modes with grfs ?
14:33:00 <kenneth> i thought grf was just graphic sets
14:33:39 <planetmaker> ha! That's _so_ wrong :-)
14:34:06 <planetmaker> You can re-define behaviour of vehicles. Of houses. Of industries. Create new rail track types
14:34:14 <planetmaker> Change building costs
14:34:18 <planetmaker> Modify snow lines
14:34:38 <norbert79> but that takes lot of time understanding GRF-s :)
14:34:47 <kenneth> if i wanted the server to announce who was leading at the beginning of each year, a GRF couldnt do that ?
14:35:00 <norbert79> if GRFS would be graphic only, it would be enough having one PNG file placed, which replaces some graphic, right? :)
14:35:19 <norbert79> kenneth: Thats more a job for the network scripts
14:35:27 <planetmaker> it's written in their own language.
14:35:31 <kenneth> you can acheive that in scripting ?
14:35:35 <planetmaker> But... have you never looked at the online content?
14:35:41 <kenneth> on server start or on player connect
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14:35:45 <kenneth> you couldnt announce with scripts surely
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14:36:08 <kenneth> planetmaker, quick question on the multiple instances
14:36:11 <norbert79> kenneth: GRFs are more modifying the gameplay, while what you are looking for is something, that servers use
14:36:37 <kenneth> can you run 2 servers from 2 server installs on devian?
14:36:56 <kenneth> mv ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg ~/.openttd/openttd2.cfg
14:37:02 <norbert79> kenneth: Why doing so? Why don't you use the same binary?
14:37:08 <norbert79> ah, yes, thats possible
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14:37:19 <kenneth> if i use the same binary, it loads scripts from that dir ?
14:37:29 <kenneth> cant define scripts in the startup switches
14:37:38 <planetmaker> kenneth, we have a separate directory for each server we run
14:37:45 <planetmaker> with its own local openttd.cfg
14:37:53 <planetmaker> where also the name, port, etc are defined
14:37:55 <kenneth> but you have 3 locations ?
14:37:57 <norbert79> planetmaker: Guess it's more like for easier use
14:38:06 <planetmaker> yes. Easier to run different versions :-)
14:38:14 <norbert79> ah, yes, the patched ones :)
14:38:24 <planetmaker> or nightly vs. stable
14:38:34 <planetmaker> or stable vs. testing :-)
14:38:38 <norbert79> Damn, been a long day
14:38:40 <planetmaker> No need to bring patches into game :-)
14:38:45 <kenneth> you have /usr/games/openttd <-- binary and then you have /usr/share/openttd/ and finally the config in ~
14:39:00 <kenneth> what system are you on ?
14:39:05 <norbert79> kenneth: I prefer having everything in one directory only
14:39:08 <kenneth> see i installed from a debian package
14:39:11 <planetmaker> I have ~/svn-public/...
14:39:22 <planetmaker> local checkouts in the user dir
14:39:32 <planetmaker> installing it to system wide dirs is not needed.
14:39:34 <kenneth> i dont know if im going mad
14:39:55 <norbert79> and I have the game on my Pendrive, and everything is in \Games\OpenTTD, and the rest at their own places, like data, gm, etc... I have all Linux binaries copied within that one directory, like back in DOS times
14:40:16 <kenneth> right so if i download the debian binary for binary, and then i can extract and duplicate it
14:40:24 <norbert79> so you just go inside that directory, and start off the right binary
14:40:28 <kenneth> like ~/server1 ~/server2
14:40:50 <kenneth> im going to have to remove the deb file installed
14:40:56 <planetmaker> you don't have to
14:40:59 <kenneth> its where it is because i installed it from deb
14:41:09 <kenneth> i would rather my system was clean :P
14:41:23 <kenneth> suppose i could just copy it all back into my home dir
14:41:30 <planetmaker> :-) That's a 'nice-to-have' but not a prerequisite ;-)
14:41:31 <norbert79> kenneth: I prefer games stored in their own directory, and not spread through the system too...
14:41:49 <kenneth> three locations for openttd is a bit upsettings
14:42:00 <norbert79> kenneth: Thats how .NIX systems work
14:42:23 <norbert79> but Windows 7 isn't that different neither by now :)
14:42:25 <kenneth> do you ever find your self sitting at the bash prompt thinking, stuff modern computing this is easier
14:42:39 <norbert79> planetmaker: BSD is a *nix system, a UNIX clone too ;-)
14:42:52 <kenneth> i love debian based systems
14:42:56 <kenneth> mainly for dpkg and apt
14:43:06 <kenneth> i just install debian miniminal
14:43:17 <kenneth> and remove all services i wont be using using apt
14:43:33 <kenneth> literally bare bones system with only ottd
14:44:10 <planetmaker> hehe @ norbert79 :-)
14:44:41 <kenneth> right off to play with puTTy
14:45:02 <planetmaker> where do you need putty?
14:45:20 <planetmaker> just ssh at the console in the computer in front of you and off you go, connecting to your server ;-)
14:45:22 * norbert79 also considers on grabbing a router for future use, having type N wifi and being able on running Linux off also from a USB too
14:45:48 <norbert79> having one USB pen in it, so I can host OpenTTD games 24/7 :Ö
14:46:02 <kenneth> which switch for cp command to copy all files and folders ?
14:46:16 <kenneth> cp /usr/share/openttd/ ~/server1
14:48:33 <norbert79> hmm, such a shame, that some games do not offer console based server hosting, but GUI based only...
14:48:40 <norbert79> like Hidden and Dangerous 2 :(
14:48:49 <kenneth> gui based hosting, lets chew up some ram
14:49:09 <norbert79> no, lets chew up your system first having a GUI based enviroment first
15:00:25 <norbert79> Anyone tested Gallium's DirectX layer for Linux?
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15:02:19 <norbert79> Pity, that they only focus on the Direct3D implementation only, and no support for Directplay Network as well
15:02:20 <kenneth> planetmaker: got them all in the home dir now
15:02:47 <kenneth> planetmaker: but i still end up with crap in ~
15:02:52 <kenneth> rm -r content_download/ openttd.cfg scenario/ save/ hs.dat
15:03:07 <kenneth> all that stuff ends up in ~ even when the dedi runs in its own dir
15:03:22 <kenneth> ~/server1/openttd -D -c ~/server1/openttd.cfg
15:03:31 <norbert79> do you have your config file at the same place where your OpenTTD binary is?
15:03:48 <kenneth> when i run without the -c switch
15:03:56 <norbert79> ~/server1/openttd -D -c openttd.cfg
15:03:57 <kenneth> ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg
15:04:06 <kenneth> that didnt work for some strange reason
15:04:09 <kenneth> still loaded a stock cfg
15:04:13 <norbert79> oh and remove the config from .openttd
15:04:23 <norbert79> have only 1 config file
15:05:07 <planetmaker> you probably want to keep ~/.openttd
15:05:21 <planetmaker> For your base set files and newgrfs and AIs
15:05:34 <planetmaker> maybe also savegames
15:05:48 <planetmaker> no need to have that stuff around twice
15:05:55 <planetmaker> but symlinks help there
15:06:22 <norbert79> planetmaker: Weird, it's not needed in my case
15:06:33 <norbert79> planetmaker: Having everything in the same root directory and it works, under each OS
15:06:41 <planetmaker> norbert79, it's not needed - if you have the base sets somewhere else
15:06:53 <planetmaker> but for two servers it means to have them around twice
15:06:58 <planetmaker> Which is stupid ;-)
15:07:20 <kenneth> do it all for me hahahahaha
15:07:36 <norbert79> But I use the same binary, but different config file
15:07:37 <kenneth> on an unrelated topic
15:07:39 <planetmaker> norbert79, how is it helpful to have the base sets in each server's directory?
15:07:47 <kenneth> does anyone work with PLC equipment, S&
15:08:10 <planetmaker> if you only have _one_ directory it doesn't matter, of course
15:08:13 <norbert79> no, I mean if I run paralell 3 different GRF based servers it's still the same directory, but you are right in case of stable vs uunstable e.g.
15:08:41 <planetmaker> yes. It makes sense for binaries. But not for online content :-)
15:11:15 <norbert79> 1.0.5 will be out in a month... Oh boy, upgrading again :)
15:11:42 <planetmaker> there's 1.0.5-RC1, yes :-)
15:11:46 <planetmaker> time surely flies
15:14:14 <norbert79> signalsw.grf - these were only needed by the TTDPatch, right? They are included in the current openttd.grf files, right?
15:14:48 <norbert79> signalsw.grf - ˙Pre-Signals and Semaphores C)opyright 2003 by Michael Blunck
15:15:27 <norbert79> Same for nsignalsw.grf I guess
15:15:43 <planetmaker> openttd does not need anything else than a base set
15:15:51 * norbert79 jsut revieweing old and unused GRF-s
15:15:56 <norbert79> need to remove some
15:16:23 <planetmaker> don't, if you want to play old versions once ;-)
15:16:35 <planetmaker> just move them to an 'obsolete' or whatever folder ;-)
15:16:59 <Rubidium> old OpenTTD binary packages already have that NewGRF (if they need them)
15:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "old" like 0.3.x?
15:18:13 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, or 0.2.0
15:20:51 <Rubidium> and since 0.6 they're unified
15:21:43 <norbert79> Now if I only know what dosdummy.grf was used for...
15:22:14 <Rubidium> the windows base pack has more sprites, so it's used to add some dummy sprites for dos
15:22:21 <Rubidium> so the sprite numbers match
15:23:06 <norbert79> I guess it can go to obsolete too... I guess that came from the original Windows installer of TTD
15:23:08 <Rubidium> windows base pack = original TTD for Windows sprites
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15:43:09 <norbert79> Question: how do I extract sprites from a GRF?
15:43:44 <norbert79> did, but I am clueless how to do it, it always wants to compile :)
15:43:50 <norbert79> I only have a GRF file
15:44:03 <Terkhen> IIRC you had to use -d
15:44:31 <norbert79> thank you, I used e
15:49:44 <norbert79> I thought it's for 'e'xtract
15:50:59 <planetmaker> pssst: use grfcodec -o png -p 2 :-)
15:51:16 <planetmaker> but use a nightly grfcodec
15:51:31 <planetmaker> :-P well. maybe not for arj ;-)
15:52:21 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ah, mine is from August
15:52:38 <planetmaker> nightlies support png :-)
15:52:45 <planetmaker> convenience rulez
15:53:04 <planetmaker> say thanks to Lakie ^ :-)
15:54:33 <planetmaker> I just wondered why you didn't make png the default, Lakie ;-)
15:54:53 <Lakie> Beccause it needs to be tested before replacing the default of pcx
15:55:03 <glx> oh it was already up-to-date
15:55:03 <Lakie> Something Rubidium suggested.
15:55:39 <Lakie> Becides you can compile grfcodec without png support, if you lack libpng
15:56:05 <planetmaker> I need it anyway, if I want to play OpenTTD ;-)
15:56:32 <Lakie> Heh, I thought it was optional with OpenTTD also?
15:56:49 <norbert79> one question: do the source images have some limitations on the file-/resolution size?
15:57:06 <planetmaker> as optional as compression for savegames ;-)
15:57:38 <Lakie> Its generally recommended that spritesheets have a width to the being a multiple of 2 or 4.
15:57:43 <glx> zlib is highly recommended (needed for multiplayer)
15:57:48 <Lakie> I doubt it matters s much with pngs though
15:58:29 <planetmaker> at least earlier grfcodecs had some problems otherwise
15:58:48 <norbert79> Lakie, planetmaker: thx...
15:58:49 <Lakie> Aye, but I believe that was down to a specific quirk f pcx files
15:58:54 <glx> I guess pcx format somehow require that
15:59:41 <Lakie> You'll know if its failed, norbert79, the sprites in the grf file will be scewed.
15:59:51 <glx> memory alignment was a usual requirement when pcx was created
16:00:10 <norbert79> Lakie: Yeah, just wanted to prepare myself for hidden surprises
16:05:44 <frosch123> the pcx issue with odd image widths was fixed before 1.0
16:05:48 <noom> i need a bit of help with a network i'm trying to build
16:06:15 <noom> but when i try to copy it using the one way path signals, it doesnt work
16:06:37 <planetmaker> one-way path signals cannot be passed from the back
16:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> <norbert79> not for ARJ :) <-- i haven't seen anybody use arj in fifteen years...
16:06:53 <planetmaker> and... with path signals that's not a signal setup you want
16:07:07 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Well, I am always a bit different :D
16:07:12 <planetmaker> you put a path signal only where a train can wait without blocking anything important
16:07:21 <noom> i tried even making it using signal lights that looked like the ones in the image but it didnt work :(
16:07:26 <noom> i guess i just dont understand how to use them
16:07:49 <planetmaker> "doesn't work" is also a quite vague description ;-)
16:08:02 <noom> well, when the station fills up, the 5th train doesnt go into the loop
16:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it's funny how a program that was virtually standard in the early 90's so suddenly and completely disappears
16:08:18 <noom> it stops back as if it wants to go to the first platform
16:08:33 <noom> like it cant see a path through the loop or something
16:08:39 <Lakie> Better programs / algorithms appeared, Eddi|zuHause?
16:08:40 <noom> i'm sure i had it working at some stage o.O
16:08:46 <norbert79> noom: You might want to use pre-signals
16:08:54 <planetmaker> noom, yes... the signal behaviour changed since when that image was made. Using pre-signals will help
16:09:02 <noom> i was afraid someone would say that :(
16:09:11 <noom> i can barely make these path ones work :p
16:09:15 <norbert79> noom: Nah, pre-signals are very easy to use, even for a loop
16:09:24 <planetmaker> make all double signals exit signals. And the one leading to the station an entry signal
16:09:28 <noom> maybe you could help? the wiki didnt make sense to me
16:09:39 <norbert79> you place a pre-signal in front of a section, and place exit-signals after the sections
16:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Lakie: but better algorithms than zip and rar appeared, but both of these are still widespread
16:10:23 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Ace was far more superiour, yet disappeard
16:10:23 <noom> hmmm, let me have a go at them
16:10:33 <Lakie> I believe the integration of zip into windows has kept it around for longer/
16:10:47 <norbert79> Lakie: Hmm, not really, just think on GZ
16:11:15 <planetmaker> noom, an entry signal will be red only if ALL exit signals attached to the block are red
16:11:16 <norbert79> Lakie: That supports both GZ and ZIP, and Unix systems also can have other compressing aplélications too
16:11:32 <planetmaker> norbert79, xz for the win :-)
16:11:57 * Lakie doesn't think windows defaultly handles .gz
16:14:21 <noom> i dont know what the signals in that picture are o.O
16:14:33 <noom> whats the single yellow one, and the two grey ones?
16:14:38 <Lakie> Entry, and I imagine two exits?
16:14:53 <noom> there are 3 different types there though
16:14:56 <Lakie> Shouldn't the signal gui let you chooe visually?
16:15:36 <norbert79> noom: pre-signal: the one with a table fited below the lamp, placed horizontally... Exit-signal: vertical block placed under the lamp, white. Combo-signal: same, but in yellow
16:16:21 <noom> i dunno whats not clicking here but i'm not getting this
16:16:30 <noom> doesnt seem exit signals are going where they would in my head
16:16:53 <Lakie> You have one junctiopn leading to two exits from that junction
16:16:55 <noom> yeah i obviously just have no idea lol
16:16:56 <planetmaker> noom, exit = exit of signal block. not of station
16:17:19 <noom> maybe if you just walked me through whats happening in that image
16:17:43 <planetmaker> maybe you just experiment a bit ;-)
16:17:52 <noom> i have been for hours man thats why i'm here
16:17:57 <planetmaker> see how things behave
16:18:25 <planetmaker> start with the usual block signals. no entry, combo or exit, no path
16:18:41 <Lakie> In essence, the block is over a junction, a train cannot enter the signal block until there is an exit
16:18:47 <planetmaker> or start with the path signals only
16:18:52 <norbert79> noom: Entry-signal: Train: "Oh hai, I need to know if I can go out of this section through any exit... Any exit available?" - Red: No exit is free, which is being marked with an exit-signal... Green: At Least one exit is free, which has the exit-signal set to green.
16:18:54 <planetmaker> don't yet mix signal types
16:19:19 <noom> i'm gonna upload a screenshot
16:21:45 * Lakie wonders if pbs works similar to ttdpatch in openttd or very differently
16:23:26 <Lakie> Means I have to completely relearn pbs.
16:23:49 <glx> 1 rule to follow, place pbs signal only if it's a safe waiting location
16:24:52 <glx> and pbs signals are not one-way
16:25:09 <Lakie> I just noticed, from that wiki page
16:25:45 <SmatZ> is there any official escape character that works in sed in all cases?
16:26:09 <SmatZ> \ doesn't work when the patters starts with (
16:26:13 <planetmaker> SmatZ, it depends - if your sed'ed string contains it...
16:26:20 <SmatZ> [x] doesnt work when x is -
16:26:40 <SmatZ> I don't have problem with the sepchar
16:26:53 <planetmaker> uh-oh. escape. :-x
16:26:59 <SmatZ> I want to have any random user-supplied sequence
16:27:14 <SmatZ> and use sed to replace taht sequence in a file by something else...
16:27:31 <SmatZ> but it fails in cases when the sequence starts/equals to ( . -
16:27:50 <Ammler> could you make a concrete example
16:28:03 <SmatZ> Ammler: I want to replace . by X
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16:28:53 <SmatZ> Ammler: I can't use tr because the sequence can be longer
16:29:13 <SmatZ> echo 'a.a' | sed s@.@X@g
16:29:19 <SmatZ> replaces all characters
16:29:33 <SmatZ> echo 'a.a' | sed s@[.]@X@g
16:30:26 <SmatZ> or when the sequence starts in ^
16:31:04 <SmatZ> the problem is I don't know what will the sequence by
16:31:40 <SmatZ> so it's a general sed@${PATTERN}@${OTHER}@g
16:31:53 <Ammler> just escape the escape :-)
16:31:57 <SmatZ> (I know there won't be @ in patterns)
16:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need an option like "interpret pattern literally, not as regexp"?
16:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause> like in grep -F?
16:32:18 <SmatZ> no matter when I tried is failed in some cases :(
16:32:36 <planetmaker> and also ${OTHER} I guess
16:36:15 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: unless the broken down engine becomes a brake/blocked for some reason, one could easy run on 1 engine unless it cannot pull the laod ...
16:36:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: yes, but that is not implemented.
16:37:08 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, his claim is that two engines are more reliable than one. That is not necessarily true
16:37:30 <Qantourisc> depends on what brakes ofcours :)
16:37:35 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: depends on your definition of the event-space ;)
16:38:04 <planetmaker> yes. And as such I can easily also say: probability of fatal break-down doesn't change. As such changing anything there is too much work for no gain ;-)
16:38:08 <Eddi|zuHause> whether you define "at least one is broken down" or "at least one is working" as the dividing case
16:41:54 <Qantourisc> Eddi|zuHause: depends on what brakes down :) if iirc the brakes clamp up, that's a problem :) if ofcours some engine part failes: put her in neutral (if trains have sutch a thing :D)
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16:42:50 <Qantourisc> and if there are 2 things i want in working order on my trains, it's brakes and engine decoupeling so i can brake properly :D
16:43:07 <Qantourisc> or car, or any other engine driven thing :)
16:43:39 <SmatZ> [17:32:25] <SmatZ> no matter when I tried is failed in some cases :( <== how could I make so many typos in such a short sentence ...
16:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause> engine decoupling is not always possible
16:43:48 <planetmaker> you could search the forums for the patch. There's an old one
16:44:18 <planetmaker> like 'improved breakdowns' or similarily named
16:44:27 <Qantourisc> well i'm ok with it
16:44:28 <Eddi|zuHause> for example DC motors generally come in sizes between 500V and 750V. yet there are 1500V DC lines
16:44:33 <Qantourisc> just tiking out loud :)
16:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> what they do is put two 750V motors in series
16:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but when one engine breaks, they can't run on the other engine, because it would get too much power
16:45:37 <planetmaker> but hardly in the wording of engine=separate vehicle
16:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose those are connected double-units
16:46:37 <noom> hehe that was fun, thanks for all the help guys :D
16:46:50 <noom> gonna go make some crazy logic chains now :p
16:46:54 <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, voltage divider!
16:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine putting two metro wagons together
16:47:27 <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: have fun with carrying a huge resistor around in case the engine breaks! :)
16:47:43 <ccfreak2k> You know those fans on the top of diesel-electric engines?
16:47:48 <Hirundo> Modern (Dutch) 1500V locomotives have two 1500V engines in parallel, so they could run at half power
16:47:49 <planetmaker> AC is easy. DC is bad
16:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i was at a transformer repair facility recently
16:49:15 <planetmaker> possible. But why would you do that?
16:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine a transformer from 380kV to 110kV
16:49:43 <Eddi|zuHause> those things are _huge_
16:50:28 <planetmaker> that's also a bit higher voltage than AC trains drive on.
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16:51:18 <Eddi|zuHause> 380kV you have on long distance power lines, 110kV on regional power lines
16:51:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the higher the voltage, the lower the distance losses
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16:52:55 <ccfreak2k> Don't forget about power factor!
16:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> a transformer that can process 700MVA weighs about 400t
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17:18:21 <Qantourisc> i have a train that refusing to go where it should go ?
17:18:52 <planetmaker> you may know better than we do
17:19:48 <Chris_Booth> I am just updating the public server wiki
17:19:54 <Chris_Booth> it is rather old and out of date
17:20:01 <Chris_Booth> it even says you have no sandbox server
17:20:49 <Qantourisc> weird the next train doesn't make the same mistake
17:20:52 <planetmaker> the sandbox server is the pre-historic name of the public server
17:21:02 <planetmaker> the stable server is the Welcome Server
17:21:49 <Chris_Booth> the stable server is more of a sandbox server than the public server
17:22:25 <planetmaker> That's why we have no sandbox server. Neither is
17:22:56 <planetmaker> You may play many styles on the Welcome server, but its name is not sandbox :-)
17:23:50 <Chris_Booth> I decided to remove the sandbox section of the article
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17:34:33 <frosch123> SmatZ: still interested in a solution?
17:37:59 <frosch123> ok, i'll write something down, but it will not save your sanity
17:38:31 <SmatZ> actually I started writing a C program for that :)
17:42:33 <frosch123> not tested though :p
17:43:37 <SmatZ> frosch123: 8-) thanks, I will give it a try :)
17:43:52 <SmatZ> I really expected something simpler :)
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17:46:41 <Eddi|zuHause> could just write a patch for sed ;)
17:52:09 * planetmaker should have listened to frosch123 's warning
17:52:39 <planetmaker> so much is obvious :-)
17:52:47 <planetmaker> how you preserve sanity less so :-P
17:53:46 <planetmaker> the norm defined in the channel might differe from a generally accepted one. But this norm here does work for me
17:58:42 <frosch123> hmm, i guess it does not work at all
17:58:52 <frosch123> or only for one occurence per line
17:59:10 * planetmaker continues with shunting-fun
18:01:06 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
18:01:09 * SmatZ is reading sed man page and examples :)
18:01:57 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
18:02:00 <frosch123> hmm, it does not work at all :(
18:02:12 <Rubidium> what are you actually trying to do?
18:02:47 <SmatZ> Ammler: I did, but now I am trying to understand the script frosch123 gave me :)
18:03:31 <SmatZ> Rubidium: make sed work for general replace... "sed s@${TEXT}@${REPLACE}@g"
18:03:54 <SmatZ> when $TEXT can contain any character (apart from @)
18:05:09 <frosch123> as long as the search pattern is not contained in the replacement
18:06:30 <SmatZ> -bash: ed: command not found
18:06:49 <SmatZ> I expected sed will be good for that
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18:39:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
18:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21076 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt:
18:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 74 changes by Phreeze
18:56:27 <frosch123> haha, one bomb in a packet and they want to shoot cargo planes
19:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> they should simply ban cargo planes...
19:02:07 <frosch123> except there is a minister inside
19:11:58 <__ln__> that's so inhuman even for ministers
19:12:17 <Belugas> ministers are not human
19:12:23 <Belugas> they are political entities
19:12:46 <Belugas> xiong... leave that body!
19:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the deluded masochist?
19:21:11 <Belugas> the definition crazed maniac
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20:11:17 <kenneth> i have an ipad i wonder if a port would to it would be interesting
20:11:39 <kenneth> just dont know whether the screen would still be too smsll
20:11:48 <kenneth> as it was on the iphone
20:12:15 <perk11> kenneth: doesn't it have Mac OS?
20:12:50 <ccfreak2k> kenneth, there's a port to the Nintendo DS. Anything is possible.
20:13:08 <kenneth> well it uses mac os x kernel, darwin, which is unix derived
20:13:28 <perk11> I think, the screen would be large enough
20:13:33 <kenneth> dpkg and apt as well as other tool chains run on iphone os
20:14:03 <kenneth> small res it would run a treat
20:14:05 <perk11> I played openttd on 2" screen
20:14:19 <perk11> it was small, but playable
20:14:25 <Alberth> tt-forums seems down, but I think it was discussed there already
20:14:46 <perk11> Alberth: it's not down for me
20:15:47 <Alberth> perk11: perhaps it was a bit busy
20:18:22 <Alberth> iirc, there was a port, some licensing issues were resolved, then apple decided to pull it from their store
20:20:24 <perk11> and can't users install apps without store?
20:20:45 <perk11> I mean without hacking anything
20:21:04 * Alberth knows nothing about i* devices
20:23:13 <Alberth> and with apple policies being what they are, I see no reason to change that.
20:23:46 <kenneth> "We just need the support of the OpenTTD team - Rubidium specifically. "
20:24:36 <Alberth> Rubidium: sent several emails after the licensing issues were resolved
20:25:46 <Alberth> do some more searching, it has all been discussed
20:26:21 <kenneth> apolagies for digging that up
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20:29:13 <Belugas> in the office, we call i* devices iToys
20:29:31 <Belugas> apart one guy, who sticks to it like the 8th marvel
20:29:49 <kenneth> i use my ipad when im bored on the can
20:30:23 <kenneth> how much fun is converting c++ to c# or is a case of rewrite from scratch
20:30:37 <Belugas> i have Sudokus on my pocket when i'm bored, on the bus :)
20:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> kenneth: probably both :p
20:30:58 <kenneth> which would you choose
20:31:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, if you are into that kind of thing
20:31:11 <Belugas> big question: is there any benefit?
20:31:11 <Alberth> kenneth: both have been tried, and failed
20:31:16 <Belugas> i mean... real benefit?
20:31:22 <Alberth> big question, is it feasible at all?
20:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it probably results in a 90% rewrite, but if you were going to do that, you might as well just avoid a lot of the design constraints of being "like transport tycoon"
20:32:51 <kenneth> well toolchain/sdk for jailbroken idevices uses objective-c/c#
20:33:10 <kenneth> so if a port could be done by someone who isnt going to cry out for attention, we could all share it :)
20:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you see the real problem
20:35:21 <Rubidium> kenneth: that page is outdated and mostly wrong
20:35:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the actual port is the least problem
20:35:41 <Alberth> we run into CPU limits with optimized compiled C/C++ code, C# runs on a VM. How far do you think you'll get?
20:35:50 <Rubidium> even then, it's currently not on their app store because Apple's policy changed and they don't allow GPL applications anymore
20:40:24 <kenneth> Yes but even if it did reach a stage of completion Rubidium you could offer it to a target audience of open source followers in the Jailbreak scene. It is well established know with a central well know apt GUI application which a OpenTTD port could be shared through.
20:41:50 <Rubidium> kenneth: offering it means, in my opinion, supporting it. Supporting it requires compiling and debugging it. Compiling requires a Mac, debugging requires an iPad/iPhone, and someone who knows their way around in the SDK.
20:42:43 <Rubidium> given there is nobody with both a mac and ipad/iphone on the development team that can or wants to do that, we can't support it and as such we won't offer it
20:43:36 <perk11> Rubidium: why don't you allow that guy who originally ported it to join development team as a Mac/ipad/iphone manager?
20:44:31 <xiong> Um, I came in late. Are you guys talking about porting to iPad?
20:44:47 <Rubidium> because the only contact I've had with that person is, basically, via Apple
20:45:46 <Rubidium> i.e. contact with that person is extremely difficult
20:45:57 <perk11> communication problem?
20:46:48 <Rubidium> well, and what I've seen he done with OpenTTD's source code is just horrid
20:47:47 <perk11> but the second may be solved as a branch for i*
20:48:02 <__ln__> branching does not increase code quality
20:48:04 <Rubidium> and I *really* don't what he has done in the past w.r.t. open source
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20:55:51 <Rubidium> ohai guy with the virgin cable :)
20:56:15 <andythenorth_> you can even see which exchange I'm on :P
20:56:46 <andythenorth_> what's the best way to fake an iterator over a list in nfo + CPP
20:57:18 <andythenorth_> #define xyz, #include sometemplate.... repeat
20:57:44 <Rubidium> you can't, besides generating that file with awk of something
20:58:14 <andythenorth_> I'll write it by hand then
20:59:11 <SmatZ> anyone here compiling OpenTTD under mingw? does it work for you with lzma? do you compile with --enable-static by default?
21:00:38 <SmatZ> Vitus has a problem with compiling with the lzma support
21:01:02 <SmatZ> because "pkg-config liblzma --libs --static" prints "-L/lib -llzma -lpthread"
21:01:13 <SmatZ> and -lpthread shouldn't be used at mingw
21:01:20 <SmatZ> so I wonder if he did something wrong
21:01:31 <SmatZ> or if there is something wrong in the documentation :)
21:01:32 <Rubidium> sounds like a bug in liblzma
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21:09:09 <perk11> SmatZ: and where can I find liblzma?
21:09:43 <SmatZ> thanks for having a look :)
21:09:45 <planetmaker> on its website... see www.openttd.org/development
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21:28:31 <Qantourisc> What is the "best" map size ? 2048x2048 seems to lag when scrolling fast
21:29:31 <perk11> $ pkg-config liblzma --libs --static
21:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: try pausing before scrolling
21:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: "best" map size heavily depends on your system performance and your determination to fill the entire map
21:30:35 <Qantourisc> no determination to fill it :)
21:30:51 <Qantourisc> well i have a relativly heavy pc
21:31:02 <Qantourisc> yet 2048x2048 seems out of grasp :)
21:31:04 <perk11> Qantourisc: you may play 512x512 for about a month alone
21:31:15 <Qantourisc> so this is a year ?
21:31:36 <Qantourisc> (the 2048x2048 is just there to show of then ? :D)
21:35:48 <SmatZ> perk11: thanks a lot :)
21:36:04 <SmatZ> it seems each instalation of mingw has its own problems :)
21:36:13 <SmatZ> perk11: for testing the compilation! :)
21:37:21 <glx> perk11: outdated win32api I'd say
21:37:47 <glx> or at least something outdated in mingw install
21:38:29 <perk11> but it was good 3 months before
21:45:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... would this work? case 0x32: return v->vehstatus | (v->Next() == NULL ? 0 : v->Next()->vehstatus << 8) | (v->Previous() == NULL ? 0 : v->Previous()->vehstatus << 16);
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21:46:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably a bad approach
21:46:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a way to access 80+ vars for any vehicle in the chain
21:47:16 <Rubidium> but, according to frosch, that's going to lead to chicken-egg bugs and desyncs
21:47:29 <planetmaker> you can go some very crude way via the self-defined property byte via the engine
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21:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: how do you mean?
21:49:11 <planetmaker> property 25 and related callback
21:50:26 <planetmaker> I'm not yet 100% convinced there's some path. But for a limited set of information it might just work
21:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: to resolve chicken-egg-problems you might refuse reading variables that can be defined by newgrf-callbacks
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21:50:43 <andythenorth_> what are you trying to do?
21:51:37 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, basic problem is this: i have an articulated vehicle of 3 parts, reliably identifyable by (position in same-id-chain)%3
21:51:57 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but you could still do like (if wagon A = f(B)...) and (if wagon B = f(A)...)
21:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> parts 0 and 2 should be invisible, and 1 visible with over-length
21:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but if part 0 or 2 is hidden in tunnel, part 1 should change appearance, to prevent glitches
21:52:38 <Qantourisc> Ps what's up with the 2050 goal ?
21:53:06 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: why don't you draw the wagon as three normal-length sprites?
21:53:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: because then they bend in curves
21:53:30 * planetmaker wouldn't consider that terrible
21:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it is ;)
21:54:05 <Eddi|zuHause> between bending and tunnel glitching, i take the tunnel glitch..
21:54:28 <andythenorth_> I might be coming to this too late :P
21:54:32 <andythenorth_> what's the vehicle
21:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: basically a wagon of full-tile-length
21:55:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but variable B2 of adjacent vehicle would be a pretty straight forward way to solving the tunnel glitch problem
21:56:17 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, train. but could be anything...
21:58:02 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: can't you check for curvature? It's not a 100% solution but maybe some:
21:58:15 <planetmaker> draw three sprites, if no curvature, but one long, if curvature
21:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, because for image of part 0 i have to know curvature relative to part 1 and 2
21:59:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but i can only read curvature of one adjacent part
21:59:46 <Eddi|zuHause> only v->Previous() and v->Next(), not v->Next()->Next()
21:59:55 <planetmaker> you seem to be able prev, this and next
21:59:59 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: implement consist-local storage :P
22:00:18 <andythenorth_> do vehicles have an animation counter?
22:00:32 <planetmaker> well... not counter
22:00:42 <Eddi|zuHause> a movement counter
22:00:45 <andythenorth_> can a trailing vehicle adjust the movement counter of the head vehicle?
22:00:46 <planetmaker> nothing they can control ^
22:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> which cannot be set by grf
22:01:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but storage is not the way to go here
22:01:20 <andythenorth_> trailing vehicles can read from head vehicle, but change nothing?
22:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> because i don't actually need to store any information
22:02:10 <andythenorth_> you just need to check 80+ var 32 for first / last vehicles in consist?
22:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and especially i shouldn't mess with the front vehicle, which might not even come from the same grf, and do messy stuff
22:03:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: that can't work properly if the train is longer than the tunnel
22:04:01 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: so this is a single wagon composed of 3 vehicles, with reliable order, but could be in a consist of arbitrary length, at an arbitrary position
22:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: exactly
22:06:09 <andythenorth_> I don't know of a way to check anything for neighbouring vehicles :|
22:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: right, and the line above would provide the information i need by bitstuffing an existing variable with adjacent vehicle information, but it's not a generic way
22:08:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: and the fear is that a generic version would open too many cans of worms
22:08:26 <andythenorth_> set a parameter on a varact 2 that is an offset to a neighbouring vehicle?
22:08:47 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: just don't document it publicly :P
22:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: example: vehicle A reads capacity of vehicle B during capacity callback, and vehicle B reads capacity of vehicle A during capacity callback
22:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> may lead to undefined outcome
22:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i understand that one needs to be very careful with these things
22:13:05 <andythenorth_> yes, generic looks unwise in that case
22:15:41 <andythenorth_> what's the vehicle?
22:15:47 <andythenorth_> why can't it bend?
22:16:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one wagon. it can't bend.
22:16:19 <andythenorth_> so when it hits a 45' curve....?
22:16:31 <andythenorth_> you'll get the same issue I have with larger boats in FISH
22:16:41 <andythenorth_> vehicle sprites overlapping other stuff
22:16:51 <Eddi|zuHause> with curvature info, i can do magic to create 22.5° views
22:17:16 <Eddi|zuHause> although i'm not that far yet
22:18:24 <Eddi|zuHause> wagon consists of 3 vehicles: ([4/8][ 8/8 ][4/8])
22:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if either part 0 or 2 is bent, part 1 displays 22.5° view
22:18:58 <andythenorth_> now I have a new bug for HEQS :P
22:19:08 <Eddi|zuHause> parts 0 and 2 must be invisible for this to look good
22:19:25 <andythenorth_> I have a 1 tile mining truck that glitches on tunnels
22:19:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but in tunnels, part 0 or 2 must be visible when part 1 is hidden
22:19:33 <andythenorth_> but I hadn't noticed until you mentioned this :P
22:19:47 <Eddi|zuHause> or part 1 must display only half a wagon when either part 0 or 2 is hidden
22:20:17 <andythenorth_> I'm not going to say TMWFTLB because I have tackled the same kind of problem....
22:20:20 <andythenorth_> ...but good luck ;)
22:20:42 <andythenorth_> it's a tricky problem
22:20:50 <andythenorth_> is it a schnabel car or something?
22:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause> really, all necessary information is there. but it must be made available
22:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm just annoyed at the tt-scale of shortening vehicles.
22:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, those. no. it's a green blob ;)
22:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly getting a 24m to 26m passenger carriage
22:22:54 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: when I started HEQS I was convinced I needed things like drawbars between trailers...
22:25:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: i don't need anything that fancy ;)
22:26:05 <Eddi|zuHause> just wagons with double length ;)
22:47:13 <Sevalecan> I had no idea you could ctrl+click on a vehicle to stop/start it
22:52:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a fairly recent feature, i believe
22:53:33 <TrueBrain> I was about to complain I didn't know it either :p
22:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hidden features are nastily hidden ;)
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