IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-10-10
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04:39:28 <xiong> When laying track, frequently I create little stubby bits at corners. Can I fix this?
04:44:25 <GhostlyDeath> There needs to be a way to upgrade tracks along with their vehicles to incompatible types
04:44:34 <De_Ghosty> yea that part sucks
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04:45:08 <GhostlyDeath> So you can just drag upgrade all your electrical tracks to maglevs
04:45:51 <GhostlyDeath> Playing with yourself in OpenTTD is fun with 3 computers
04:46:07 <GhostlyDeath> It's like an echo is in the room
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06:07:54 <xiong> How can I tell what sort of signal I have already built? It's not possible for me to tell just by looking at it. It's almost invisible.
06:10:14 <xiong> I have a track running left to right and signals on it are edge-on. I have no idea what kind of signals they are.
06:11:27 <xiong> Especially, I would like to be able to see what track a given signal controls. In the simple case of a long straight and block signals, yes, it's obvious: the section between one signal and the next. In more complex layouts, it's obscure.
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07:13:05 <xiong> How can I tell what sort of signal I have already built? It's not possible for me to tell just by looking at it. It's almost invisible.
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07:46:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> xiong: the query window should tell
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07:51:17 <planetmaker> xiong: you also want to maybe update OpenGFX, if you don't have 0.3.x :-)
07:56:34 <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, Um, do you mean click the ? at the right end of the main toolbar?
07:56:52 <xiong> planetmaker, I just installed all fresh.
07:57:28 <xiong> To me, everything is very small. I'm thinking seriously of logging in as a different user and changing screen res. That's inconvenient.
07:58:00 <planetmaker> xiong: 'installed all fresh' does not tell about a version :-)
07:58:17 <planetmaker> and also it's usually no fix for anything
07:58:26 <planetmaker> especially wrt OpenTTD
07:58:55 <Alberth> with all, except broken programs, usually :)
07:59:01 <xiong> I mean that I installed the latest available stable version of OpenTDD, OpenGFX, and so forth.
08:00:04 <andythenorth_> FIRS 0.5.0 released :)
08:00:58 <xiong> I have OpenTDD 1.04 and OpenGFX 0.31.
08:01:30 <xiong> I would like to be able to zoom in at least 1 more level, preferably 3.
08:01:57 <xiong> I have installed a screen magnifier but of course, that only makes the pixels appear bigger; it adds no detail.
08:02:37 <Alberth> that only breaks all graphics
08:04:03 <xiong> I see that the ? tool does tell me something about my signals. Thanks Eddi|zuHause++. I still have to infer from the position of the signal relative to the track which way it is facing, I guess.
08:06:54 <xiong> To clarify: YAPF is internal, it's not an option, download, or setting. --?
08:07:43 <Alberth> you *can* set pathfinders such as YAPF to be used for types of vehicles
08:07:59 <Alberth> (not that I ever changed such a setting)
08:10:58 <Alberth> OpenTTD has 3(?) different algorithms for deciding what route vehicles take, YAPF is one of them
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08:12:20 <xiong> I'm concerned because I would like to increase station spread above 12 -- not outrageously so but a fair-sized town goes well over that, especially since a large rail station really needs to be on the outskirts.
08:12:35 <V453000> which has nothing to do with pathfinding :)
08:12:44 <V453000> stations subtab in menu
08:12:50 <xiong> IIUC, YAPF permits a larger station spread. I only know what I read.
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08:13:45 <Rubidium> all pathfinders permit a larger station spread
08:15:19 <planetmaker> that is still somewhat true
08:15:23 <xiong> I can tolerate slow, I might even like it; but I don't want to introduce instability.
08:15:24 <Alberth> xiong: pathfinding is about what tracks are chosen by a train, it has nothing to do with cargo coverage of a station
08:15:26 <planetmaker> but it doesn't mean it won't work
08:16:11 <xiong> Alberth, If there's no relationship, I suggest the wiki be edited. I surely don't know enough to make the edit myself.
08:17:05 <Alberth> little use, some people see that change, believe it is wrong, and 'fix' it again.
08:17:12 <xiong> Again, IIUC, increasing station spread doesn't increase the capture area of a given station; it only allows substations to be spread out more.
08:18:21 <andythenorth__> the station will be physically larger, so will cover a greater area
08:18:33 <xiong> My theory -- if I may be excused for having one -- is to put a bus station right downtown, the big rail on the outskirts, and perhaps another bus station or two to capture all of the town for the station. All of these, subs of a single station.
08:19:36 <Alberth> but it is not needed, if you provide good service, you'll get more than enough passengers
08:19:38 <xiong> Only if I increase station spread. 12 is really restrictive.
08:19:48 * andythenorth__ doesn't fancy explaining how catchment areas *actually* work
08:19:53 <V453000> although it is quite boring to walk stations so much :p
08:20:04 * Alberth doesn't really know nor care
08:20:11 <andythenorth__> better that way
08:20:22 <andythenorth__> frosch made me understand it properly one day :(
08:20:35 <andythenorth__> it's a bit bonkers
08:20:45 <Alberth> oh dear, and now you're stuck with that knowledge :p
08:21:00 <xiong> So, YAPF definitely has nothing to do with station spread slowdown?
08:21:52 <Alberth> xiong: it is much more fun to have several stations in the town, and built transport between them
08:22:25 <andythenorth__> can't remember which is which, but supply / accept are rather different :o
08:22:34 <andythenorth__> there were a couple of minor bugs in those drawings
08:22:43 <planetmaker> Alberth: afaik _any_ PF will slow down. The reason begin that the possible destinations are much bigger, that is the search area around station signs
08:22:44 <andythenorth__> but the basic madness can be seen :)
08:23:04 <planetmaker> probably more so with A* as it's an accurate PF without guessing
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08:23:36 <Alberth> planetmaker: agreed, there is a indirect relation
08:24:04 <xiong> Well, if there's any relationship whatever, I'd like to be sure I'm using YAPF before I increase station spread.
08:24:20 <xiong> I don't see a setting for it, though.
08:24:22 <planetmaker> xiong: actually it doesn't really matter much...
08:24:32 <planetmaker> the setting is in the adv. settings.
08:24:36 <planetmaker> probably under stations or alike
08:24:42 <andythenorth__> you should use YAPF anyway, for the unrelated reason that it's generally better
08:24:49 <xiong> I'll look for it again. There are many, many settings.
08:26:42 <xiong> Ah. Vehicles > Routing > Pathfinder for (foo), three choices. YAPF is set and recommended for road and rail.
08:27:20 <xiong> Oddly, 'original' for ships. I dunno what good ships might be, at least on the maps I've played; they're all islands.
08:27:22 <V453000> dont worry about the rest
08:27:41 <andythenorth__> use original for ships
08:27:50 <V453000> the recommended things are good
08:27:59 <andythenorth__> I have more ships in most games than any other type of vehicle
08:28:01 <Alberth> xiong: YAPF is *very* expensive for big seas
08:28:24 <Rubidium> s/is/can quite likely be/
08:31:18 <xiong> Well, I'll get there, and to air also. Right now, rail is quite complex enough.
08:32:02 <xiong> So, has anyone got a number for station spread? I don't just want to crank it up until it crashes. This is already experimental enough. 16 sound safe? 24 risky?
08:34:15 <xiong> I should say I'm running Linux, specifically Ubuntu 9.10. I nail my processor to 1.6 GHz for this sort of thing; it can go faster for short periods but not too long without overheating.
08:34:17 <andythenorth__> I prefer ships because the routing is braindead. Just build two docks and some bouys. No congestion, no lost ships, no signals
08:35:36 <V453000> braindead = boring for me :)
08:36:02 <xiong> Okay, well, 64 sounds a lot like instant trouble. Seriously?
08:36:39 <andythenorth__> V453000: one platform 64 tiles long, or 64 platforms?
08:36:59 <V453000> andythenorth_ neither, you dont need to use the full spread ;)
08:37:35 <V453000> we had even about 200 platforms in one of our games :p
08:37:40 * andythenorth__ builds 1-2 platform stations and watches trains stack up outside
08:38:40 <V453000> imo there is no need to restrict yourself with lower station spreads when you play SP ...
08:40:14 <xiong> I'm just looking for some rational guidance. The setting for station spread is marked with a clear warning, in red type.
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08:55:50 <xiong> Moving on: The game seems pretty stable now, with one exception: When I quit the game entirely, it hangs. I have to open a terminal window and kill its process -- ugly.
08:57:58 <planetmaker> known-bugs.txt might have something on it
09:16:24 <xiong> pulseaudio, eh? You know, even with the sound and music add-ons, I hear nothing.
09:17:17 <xiong> Perhaps I should try disabling both.
09:17:32 <xiong> Not sure how much sound helps in a game like this.
09:18:03 <SpComb> the music is a classic
09:18:08 <V453000> I play without sound :p
09:18:20 <SpComb> just the other day I heard someone with the theme tune as their ringtone
09:18:33 <xiong> Well, I have got a small rail system, with pax and frieght; a small bus and mail truck system; and two airports. Everything works, if not well.
09:19:30 <xiong> I should probably build a couple of docks, just to say I did it. Then, I think I'll start over, now that I don't know what I'm doing -- a step up from complete ignorance, I hope.
09:19:37 <planetmaker> xiong: you know. Having the add-ons is not enough. you also need to enable them and set the gfx / music volume
09:19:49 <planetmaker> which you - silly as it is - can only do when you are running a game
09:19:55 <planetmaker> not from the main menu
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09:21:05 <xiong> If they are doing anything to crash the game, not worth it.
09:23:39 <Rubidium> even if you disable sound pulseaudio might fuck up when closing OpenTTD, i.e. read the part of known-bugs.txt about hangs upon exit
09:35:58 <xiong> Rubidium, I've been reading that and experimenting. You're right; choosing 'no sound' and 'no music' doesn't help.
09:37:20 <xiong> What's really annoying is that the GUI force-quit tool isn't sufficient. It kills the window but top says openttd is still running. I have to kill it in the terminal.
09:38:09 <xiong> I'm not sure how ready I am to mess with pulseaudio. What might that do to, say, DVD playback?
09:40:08 <xiong> Perhaps it makes more sense just to kill pulseaudio; if I play a DVD or stream some music, I can restart it. I very rarely do either.
09:40:13 <Rubidium> I've got no idea what it might do, though arguable installing libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio shouldn't influence DVD playback unless it uses libsdl (which is quite unlikely)
09:41:12 <xiong> Well, frankly, I don't even know what pulseaudio does. It's been on my list of things-to-learn-about, because it's a regular offender in top.
09:53:48 <xiong> Nope; that didn't do it. I guess it's time to follow the instructions.
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10:05:30 <xiong> Okay, well, that didn't work either. The fix that works is '$ pulseaudio -kill'.
10:05:41 <xiong> Then, openttd quits very nicely.
10:06:11 <xiong> More hot chocolate, anyone? I have mini-marshmallows.
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13:17:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "you have unlocked 19 of 120 achievements (16%)"
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14:48:10 <Alberth> now that seems like a useful way to spend development time :p
14:49:54 <planetmaker> seems like the date is wrong ;-)
15:05:54 <Xaroth> 10:10:10 @ 10:10:10 GMT
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15:30:54 <andythenorth_> I'm playing a nice FIRS game
15:31:04 <andythenorth_> pretty much everything is balanced
15:31:12 <andythenorth_> but I'm not bothering to transport food :P
15:32:10 <planetmaker> no town effect cargo anymore ;-)
15:32:41 <andythenorth_> neither has building materials
15:32:47 <andythenorth_> but I'm transporting lots of that :o
15:33:47 <andythenorth_> most of the various food processing plants are quite a long way from the farm clusters
15:34:02 <andythenorth_> maybe I should make them try and locate nearer to the processors by default
15:34:10 <andythenorth_> irl the argument could go either way
15:34:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20913 /trunk/bin/ai/ (compat_0.7.nut compat_1.0.nut): -Fix (r19231): [NoAI] give the correct error message if you try to overbuild an opponont road station with your own while using the 0.7 or 1.0 compatibility layer (fanioz)
15:34:19 <andythenorth_> so what is better for the game?
15:39:49 <planetmaker> it doesn't matter
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16:48:51 * andythenorth_ ponders splitting Food into more cargos
16:49:19 <andythenorth_> e.g. Meat, Beer, Bread
16:49:32 <andythenorth_> probably a bad idea
16:49:54 <Zuu> would make it really complex I think
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16:50:14 <Alberth> didn't you argue against that yesterday?
16:50:29 <andythenorth_> I argued against subtypes :)
16:50:43 <andythenorth_> and I would probably argue against splitting if someone else suggested it
16:50:46 <andythenorth_> I think it's a bad idea
16:51:17 <andythenorth_> it's a bad idea
16:51:26 <planetmaker> sub-types is a good one, though
16:51:40 <andythenorth_> my theory: if there are too many different sources of one cargo, it's somehow less appealing to transport
16:51:46 <planetmaker> adds atmosphere without work
16:51:59 <andythenorth_> Food and Goods have 6 sources each in FIRS
16:52:00 <planetmaker> and sub-types counter your last statement
16:52:05 <andythenorth_> and I barely transport either
16:52:39 <planetmaker> I don't follow your argument.
16:53:08 <andythenorth_> I'm not sure it's a well-rounded argument yet :)
16:53:11 <planetmaker> Spammer in forums VERY active
16:53:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: having only one or two options always... boring ;-)
16:53:42 <planetmaker> as it gives you no means to make for a varied game
16:54:13 <planetmaker> you always then have to start with a -> b as it then produces fast those supplies you need. And then you work up the chain. Oh well
16:54:22 <andythenorth_> I think too many leads to choice paralysis
16:54:30 <andythenorth_> like when you go to Ikea :P
16:57:15 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: try a FIRS game and let me know how you get on transporting food and goods
16:57:27 <andythenorth_> I can't decide what to do about them (if anything at all)
16:58:45 <planetmaker> food is still a town effect cargo, right?
16:59:03 <andythenorth_> in arctic above snow and tropic in desert yes
16:59:08 <andythenorth_> I'm playing temperate :P
16:59:13 <andythenorth_> I could patch :)
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16:59:42 <planetmaker> Yexo: Rubidium can you ban people from forums?
17:00:14 <Yexo> who do you think needs to be banned?
17:00:37 <planetmaker> like posting 50 spam postings in 10 minutes
17:01:10 <Rubidium> planetmaker: ofcourse not, we only have some rights in the OpenTTD subsections
17:01:31 <andythenorth_> maybe industries need food...
17:01:37 <planetmaker> might have been and if it's only temporary for these things :-)
17:03:33 <davis> still looking for the newrail grf which had a parameter for a hedge instead of the usual fence
17:03:39 <davis> it's not swedishrails :I
17:04:15 <planetmaker> davis: it IS Swedish Rails
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17:04:25 <davis> I did try every parameter there was
17:04:27 <planetmaker> well... it has *some* bushes. Not a complete hedge
17:04:31 <davis> and there wa sno hedge , it was bushes.
17:04:36 <planetmaker> other than that... probably canrail
17:04:42 <planetmaker> but that's not a railtype
17:05:18 <andythenorth_> 22 sources of food on my map, only 9 destinations
17:05:24 <andythenorth_> maybe it's just a balancing problem
17:05:35 <andythenorth_> or maybe some stuff needs removing
17:05:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: what's the problem with that?
17:05:50 <andythenorth_> I'm not sure yet
17:05:54 <andythenorth_> I'm thinking about it
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17:06:19 <planetmaker> there are also more than one store in a town which sell food. Not just one central one. So...
17:07:19 <andythenorth_> maybe TownControl just is the answer
17:07:29 <andythenorth_> I feel like I should edit something more out of FIRS though
17:08:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: you cannot make the Jack of all trades industry grf
17:08:50 <planetmaker> you have to decide on *something*
17:09:15 <planetmaker> And not everytime you feel like 'something slightly different' change the complete newgrf
17:09:22 <planetmaker> you'll run circles eventually
17:09:31 <andythenorth_> I think circles already happened :)
17:09:43 <planetmaker> I didn't dare to say so, but yes
17:10:18 <andythenorth_> I don't want to reinvent the chains again, I think they're done
17:10:26 <andythenorth_> apart from the last links
17:10:38 <andythenorth_> I think it might just be a placement / balancing problem
17:10:50 <planetmaker> a probability, if you want
17:10:52 <andythenorth_> there are some tickets about that already from various people
17:10:57 <planetmaker> But I'd not tinker the chains
17:11:03 <andythenorth_> nah, I'm not going to
17:11:24 <andythenorth_> I have some ideas that fit well into economies, but the chains are...strong now :)
17:12:48 <andythenorth_> I think (a) I need to try and make every town accept food by building a store or petrol pump
17:13:01 <andythenorth_> (b) I need to control placement of food processing industries better
17:13:11 <andythenorth_> especially the brewery / bakery spamming of towns
17:13:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: why a)?
17:13:25 <andythenorth_> it's weird that not every town accepts food
17:13:31 <andythenorth_> well maybe do it by population
17:13:36 <planetmaker> it doesn't by default anyway
17:13:45 <planetmaker> exactly. It's a population issue
17:13:56 <planetmaker> Let it grow. Then it will eventually accept
17:14:10 <planetmaker> Boring if every town accepts everything from the start
17:14:27 <andythenorth_> so try and place a store in every town above a certain popn...
17:14:41 <andythenorth_> I'm not sure I can actually do that, but I can try
17:15:09 <planetmaker> I mean... is random not good enough?
17:15:16 <andythenorth_> not in my current game
17:16:02 <andythenorth_> I have about 25 towns on the map. Nearly all have a food processor nearby, but only seven accept food
17:16:05 <andythenorth_> it's just....weird
17:16:14 <andythenorth_> is the best I can explain it
17:16:31 <planetmaker> then you have too many industries on that map ;-)
17:16:37 <andythenorth_> I run grain *into* town to the brewery or grain mill, then run the resulting food halfway across the map to the nearest store
17:16:37 <Alberth> indsutry generation is, let's say, non-optimal :)
17:16:53 <andythenorth_> I am using a certain helpful patch ;)
17:16:54 <planetmaker> or you got the probabilities wrong
17:17:03 <andythenorth_> I reckon that's a factor
17:17:13 <planetmaker> make the store more likely then others. And the whole issue is gone
17:17:28 <planetmaker> But limit it to a certain number per town which depends on the population
17:17:53 <planetmaker> because I really dislike towns which are clustered with industries ;-)
17:18:13 <planetmaker> And a real bonus would be if the placement radius would depend on the population
17:20:11 <planetmaker> because simply somthing 15 tiles from the centre in 1900 is nicely at the edge. But in 2050 it's in the financial district with high-rise. And it just doesn't fit and is annoying to connect when I have to slash through 30 tiles of town and even make space for a station
17:20:28 <frosch123> so attach it to some town zone
17:20:51 <frosch123> like zone 2: will appear in medium towns, but not in the center of big towns
17:21:06 <andythenorth_> currently it just builds like the water tower or tropic bank
17:21:14 <andythenorth_> uses a special industry flag
17:21:17 <planetmaker> their building placement sucks ;-)
17:21:55 <planetmaker> they'll evetually replace all buildings in towns, if they go unchecked. But they're especially bad: they don't die
17:22:14 <andythenorth_> I have them limited so they can't build near each other
17:22:45 <planetmaker> yeah :-) I referenced original industries there
17:23:26 <andythenorth_> I guess fixing these is something for 0.6
17:23:30 <planetmaker> If they close, though, the distance might be less of an issue than maybe the town zone. That's a wonderful idea actually
17:23:59 <andythenorth_> we agreed not to do them as houses because closing is annoying remember :D
17:24:07 <andythenorth_> although that could be prevented
17:24:13 <planetmaker> unserviced ones ;-)
17:24:26 <andythenorth_> maybe it was the minimap that was the killer argument for 'as industry not house'
17:24:38 <planetmaker> nope. it was 'no control over placement'
17:25:09 <planetmaker> they'd come and go, no matter what the player does.
17:25:20 <planetmaker> wether he provides good or bad service or doesn't bother at all
17:26:42 <andythenorth_> maybe I should ticket this
17:29:43 * andythenorth_ pops off for a bit
17:45:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20914 /trunk/src/lang/german.txt:
17:45:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
17:45:39 <frosch123> pm safes the nightly :p
17:46:04 <planetmaker> actually Y3xo did a commit today
17:46:38 <Alberth> lots of commits today :)
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17:52:35 <planetmaker> probably average :-)
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18:05:12 <frosch123> arg... silicoids, darloks and klackons ...
18:05:21 <frosch123> three times trouble as opponent
18:10:49 <planetmaker> FreeOrion could learn a lot from OpenTTD...
18:11:12 <frosch123> never played freeorion
18:11:27 <planetmaker> I haven't tried this year's stable yet
18:11:43 <planetmaker> Worth a try: maybe, but it's not yet where MOO2 is
18:12:00 <planetmaker> They IMHO go the wrong dev approach
18:12:47 <planetmaker> they focus too much on looks and too little on game play concept
18:13:04 <planetmaker> result is: what's there looks nice. But the game is boring
18:13:11 <frosch123> mwhahaha, belugas will certainly like freeorion
18:13:30 <planetmaker> And it has a hell of dependencies
18:13:42 <frosch123> i google for it, pick the first wiki page, and get a "new contributors often raise the 'realism' thing"
18:13:43 <planetmaker> The SDK one needs is about 150MB
18:14:09 <planetmaker> Without the SDK... oh well. Difficult to get everything properly setup
18:15:24 <planetmaker> Also the approach is to implement one game feature per version step. As such there's no diplomacy, no interaction etc...
18:15:32 <planetmaker> and won't be before a few years given the timeline
18:15:45 <planetmaker> But there'll be a 3D whatever battle system soon (or now?)
18:16:30 <planetmaker> The design seems top down. OpenTTD is bottom up :-)
18:17:32 <planetmaker> and IMHO bottom up allows easier contributions. In those places a person is interested in.
18:17:38 <planetmaker> Allows smaller steps
18:18:19 <Terkhen> I tested it a few months ago, the gameplay seemed simpler than MOO
18:18:33 <planetmaker> While obviously it stell allows major steps. Like the window system. Like the path signals...
18:18:48 <planetmaker> as major parts are missing :-)
18:18:58 <planetmaker> not sophisticated techs, no interaction
18:19:20 <Terkhen> yeah, I missed diplomacy and custom races
18:19:48 <Terkhen> and probably techs too :P
18:20:18 * frosch123 always picks the "do not bother me"-special-skills of custom race
18:20:35 <planetmaker> The amount of techs is ok, ... but yeah. No interaction etc
18:20:51 <frosch123> omniscient (no scouting), and telepathic (no transporters) :p
18:20:53 * planetmaker usually picks kinda tech-centred
18:21:06 <planetmaker> but telepathic is nice :-)
18:21:26 <Terkhen> hmmm... I don't remember what choices I did in MOO2... maybe is time to play it again
18:23:12 <frosch123> ah, well, i guess silicoids+darkloks+klackons is not as bad as psilons+darloks+klackons
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18:36:23 <Xaroth> what.. -is- freeorion? :o
18:37:01 <planetmaker> Xaroth: you know Master of Orion, MOO?
18:37:20 <planetmaker> well. FreeOrion is to MOO2 what OpenTTD is to TTD
18:37:32 <planetmaker> but not that advanced
18:40:32 <trebuchet> It looks way better though. It just needs maturation.
18:40:42 <trebuchet> Slow and steady it goes.
18:42:20 <trebuchet> Ah, scrolling up planetmaker already covered this. planetmaker, what do you suggest to the FreeOrion devs?
18:43:25 <trebuchet> It looks like they say "no" to things, instead of green-lighting everything and having the project derail.
18:49:43 <planetmaker> I had that discussion with them :-) One can do it one way or another, buttom up or top down design approach. But not mixed.
18:50:08 <planetmaker> But comparing OpenTTD and FreeOrion, both have a similar age, I know which is more successful
18:50:15 <planetmaker> The original games were similarily popular
18:50:54 <planetmaker> MasterOfOrion was the name
18:51:13 * SmatZ knows the name, but never played it
18:51:21 <SmatZ> so OpenTTD >> FreeOrion
18:51:39 <SmatZ> (what else would anyone expect at #openttd ;)
18:51:56 <planetmaker> also true wrt user and dev base
18:52:58 <SmatZ> sorry, for some reason my BNC didn't post history of this channel
18:53:06 <SmatZ> so I don't know what's the discussion about
18:53:13 <SmatZ> (was I kicked from this channel?)
18:54:52 <frosch123> yesterday was some netsplit maybe
18:55:09 <SmatZ> I was here this morning :(
18:57:47 <frosch123> looks like i am quite lucky
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19:23:50 <trebuchet> SmatZ: They're... different games...
19:24:29 <trebuchet> planetmaker: Well, hopefully sometime, like 2016 or something, we'll have a playable version of FreeOrion.
19:24:45 <xiong> Okay, let me try again. How can I tell which way a one-way signal is facing? And how can I change its direction?
19:25:02 <xiong> Obviously, I don't understand the manual.
19:25:45 <planetmaker> click on a signal to change the way it faces
19:25:56 <planetmaker> obviously it acts in the direction the light faces
19:26:08 <planetmaker> I don't consider semaphores usable ;-)
19:27:15 <xiong> I can't really tell which way the light faces. And I don't see a clear difference between semaphores and lights. What am I missing?
19:29:23 <xiong> When you say 'click', what state must the cursor be in before the click?
19:30:16 <xiong> If I clear the cursor state (esc), then clicking appears to do nothing. The appearance of the signal does not change; and my one train stops at it, still.
19:31:31 <xiong> The ? tool tells me it is a one-way path signal. So, presumably, if there is only one train in the whole system and it stops here, it must be facing the wrong way. No?
19:33:25 <xiong> I need a better way to deal with signals. This is intensely frustrating. A signal can face in one of 8 directions and be of one of 5 types. I don't mind the complexity but I want some way to see and change signals.
19:33:45 <xiong> ... one of 10 types if you include semaphores.
19:34:05 <xiong> Is there no clear, detailed signal dialog?
19:34:06 <Alberth> adv.settings->construction->signals->show signals on the drive side->on
19:34:17 <xiong> Alberth, I have that set.
19:34:21 <Alberth> you do use the signal gui?
19:34:45 <xiong> That's part of my annoyance. It seems to me that when I change a one-way signal, it should hop from one side of the track to the other.
19:34:53 <Alberth> the settings below the previous one
19:34:56 <xiong> I do use the signal gui.
19:35:21 <Yexo> xiong: you have to select the signal tool before clicking the signal
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19:35:39 <xiong> Again, it's frustrating, because all the icons look alike. But I right-click and figure out what's what, then place.
19:36:08 <xiong> Yexo, okay. Then I don't want to click with a clear cursor. I want to click with a... which signal cursor?
19:36:20 <Yexo> doesn't matter which one
19:36:22 <Alberth> the button you have pressed in the gui is the signal you place
19:36:26 <Yexo> any signal cursor will do
19:36:56 <xiong> Alberth, Understand. The signal is already placed; it's a one-way path signal -- so says the ? tool. I want to reverse its direction, I think.
19:37:34 <Alberth> you have a white square due to having selected a signal?
19:38:12 <Alberth> then click at the rail of the signal you want to switch, and it will change direction (rotate between 2 different versions, actually)
19:38:41 <xiong> Ah, now I get it. I had the 'change signal type' icon selected.
19:38:47 <Alberth> if you pick the normal block signal, the rotation becomes important
19:38:50 <xiong> ... which is *not* what I want.
19:39:22 <xiong> My one-way path signal successfully hopped to the other side of the track and the train went through.
19:39:51 <xiong> Am I just too old for this? Was this game designed by younger eyes?
19:39:58 <Alberth> no, then you forcibly place the selected type of signal, and nothing happens if you already have such a signal :)
19:40:26 <Alberth> game graphics were designed 20+ years back, screen resolution was less high then :)
19:41:41 <xiong> All the signals look almost exactly alike. I can barely tell the semaphores from the lights. I can almost pick out the different types of signal when they face me directly. I cannot imagine how one is supposed to figure out the type of a signal that is facing away from the player.
19:42:07 <Alberth> I never use the semaphores, too confusing for me
19:42:31 <xiong> Again, I completely do not understand the advantage of either.
19:42:42 <Alberth> you actually only need a few different signals
19:43:16 <Alberth> some people wanted to have 'early' signals, apparently, so somebody added them, most likely
19:43:25 <xiong> 8 directions, 10 types including semaphores, and for each, 2 states, red and green. That's a total of 160 different things one can see and I can see at most about 5.
19:43:39 <Alberth> and it makes sense to have more than one set of signals for the 100 years of game play
19:44:27 <Alberth> for your own sanity forget about semaphores :)
19:44:29 <xiong> Yes, I understand about the historicity of semaphores. Do you understand what I'm saying? I can't tell which is which in either era.
19:44:51 <xiong> I can't see why lights are easier or better. I'd like to know why you think so.
19:45:40 <Alberth> I am trying to make it simpler for you, throwing out useless stuff helps, usually :)
19:46:42 <xiong> A signal is a perfect example of why a photograph is not always the best tool for communication. In a photo, an office building is hundreds of times bigger than a signal. But the office building has very little game meaning; the signal is complex and important.
19:47:11 <xiong> Alberth, Both types of signals are equally useful/useless to me. I can't distinguish them.
19:47:48 <planetmaker> are you just randomly ranting now?
19:47:54 <xiong> What's wanted is not a photo but a schematic, in which a signal can be blown up to the size of an office building and examined.
19:47:54 <Alberth> I have played the game with just the block signals for years
19:48:29 * planetmaker always plays with light singals. And preferrably with block signals
19:48:29 <xiong> planetmaker, I'm intensely frustrated at not being able to deal with the signals. I can't see them clearly. Is that not obvious?
19:48:44 <planetmaker> obvious is you ranting
19:48:58 <planetmaker> complaining about the whole thing being bad
19:49:01 <xiong> That's not a random rant. I want to see the signals -- actually, I want to be able to see the signal states.
19:49:07 <Alberth> they are at a predictable side of the tracks
19:49:14 <planetmaker> then don't play at 1600x1200 but at 640x480
19:49:23 <V453000> signals are quite well visible btw
19:49:38 <V453000> yea, as pm says :) with reasonable res
19:49:46 <xiong> Okay, again: If the signal is facing away from me, how can I see its state?
19:50:00 <planetmaker> but you see the type
19:50:11 <V453000> why do you need to know the state
19:50:13 <planetmaker> as they have different back sides
19:50:19 <V453000> just look if there is train or not :)
19:50:38 <xiong> Actually, no, planetmaker; I do not see the type. I can get that with the ? tool, which is better than nothing.
19:50:39 <Alberth> you don't see the state, but it is not necessary, trust the computer to handle the state correctly :)
19:51:17 <planetmaker> xiong: the backsides ARE different. And the colour bar for block signals is also visible
19:51:57 <planetmaker> it might be sometimes a bit hard to distinguish exit from combo signal. But that's the worst
19:52:01 <V453000> xiong: you apparently are the only one who has problems with this
19:52:02 <xiong> I don't feel that I'm being clear. I'm not a young guy. I just can't see these things.
19:52:37 <planetmaker> my eyesight is definitely not the best but it works for me
19:53:08 <V453000> I have about 1600x1200 here and it is fine
19:53:19 <planetmaker> but you're young and have good eyes ;-)
19:53:31 <xiong> You say that you can tell the type of a signal from the back side. I cannot tell which way some signals face; they appear on both sides of the track.
19:53:59 <V453000> well then make them one way?
19:54:06 <V453000> (by clicking multiple times)
19:54:25 <V453000> btw for how long have you been playing the game? you seem to be more talking here than anything else possibly :)
19:54:37 <xiong> In some cases, I can't tell which track a signal belongs to.
19:54:47 <planetmaker> xiong: if you see the light: it faces you. If not: it faces away from you
19:55:10 <xiong> Right. Except I can't see the lights either way. All I see is a sort of vertical black dot.
19:55:12 <planetmaker> which side they're on: depends upon your settings. I have them on the driving side
19:55:39 <planetmaker> if you see just one dot, you play at the wrong resolution
19:56:01 <Zuu> Or make a grf with giant signals?
19:56:02 <planetmaker> they're not big. But they are not that bad as you describe them
19:56:18 <V453000> lol :D signals over the whole tile? :)
19:56:20 <planetmaker> Or get the 32bpp extra zoom patch. They might have big signals
19:56:22 <xiong> The rails are also black -- technically, the trackbed is black. I can only see some signals because they show as a break in the rails behind them.
19:56:54 <planetmaker> care to share a screenshot?
19:56:55 <Zuu> Is the transparency sprite made on the fly by OpenTTD, or could there be giant non-transparent signals with smaller transparent signals?
19:56:56 <xiong> I wear glasses. This is a serious thing to me.
19:57:22 <planetmaker> the way you bitch around, I believe you in that
19:57:33 <Alberth> try te reduce the screen resolution one time
19:57:48 <xiong> planetmaker, I don't doubt that you are seeing the same thing I am seeing. The difference is in our personal abilities. Am I not allowed to say this?
19:58:04 <V453000> did you reduce the resolution or not?
19:58:05 <planetmaker> you are. Still: care to post a screenshot?
19:58:25 <planetmaker> I like to get an impression of how your (full) screen looks like
19:58:53 <planetmaker> I can't play with 1600x1200 on 17"
19:59:27 <xiong> V453000, I can't figure out what you mean by 'reduce the resolution'. If I change the size of the window, I just get a smaller window.
19:59:57 <xiong> planetmaker, I'll be happy to do so. Feel free to comment.
20:00:01 <V453000> just reduce the screen window? ._.
20:00:22 <planetmaker> you can post it to img.openttdcoop.org, if you need a place to paste it
20:01:33 <planetmaker> xiong: what size is your monitor and what resolution does it have?
20:02:59 <xiong> Ah, you want me to reduce my system resolution. That will absolutely screw up everything else on the system.
20:03:37 <planetmaker> or play in full screen mode. Then OpenTTD allows to select a lower one
20:03:58 <planetmaker> but how can you see the other stuff?
20:04:03 <xiong> We're talking total destruction -- elements of the system GUI get screwed up and must be reset.
20:04:17 <planetmaker> you have the same issue there
20:04:35 <xiong> Let me post the screenshot.
20:05:33 <planetmaker> In any case: Use a reasonable resolution wrt your eye sight
20:05:48 <planetmaker> Or play full screen and adjust a comfortable one, selecting it from the game options
20:05:58 <xiong> Let me post the screenshot.
20:08:02 <V453000> does anyone please remember how is called the cmd of removing signs in the gamelog?
20:09:03 <xiong> You see that I have system GUI elements sized so I can see them. In things like XChat and text editors, I have appropriately-sized fonts.
20:10:22 <Alberth> V453000: command_type.h lists all commands
20:10:28 <planetmaker> in any case: signals are always on the right side in your case
20:11:21 <xiong> Yes; I'm clear about that. I set it that way. Signals on the drive side.
20:11:55 <Alberth> oh, you are not looking in the source code?
20:12:02 <xiong> Except, some signals appear on both sides of the track. Perhaps in those cases, it doesn't matter which way they face -- or more precisely, they face both ways.
20:12:31 <V453000> Alberth: I just have the log from the game, and I need to find who removed some sign
20:12:52 <planetmaker> xiong: block signals can be like "one each way" "one-way A", "one-way B"
20:12:54 <xiong> As I said, though, to me it's not entirely clear which track some signals are on. I can peer very closely at it and figure it out but I can't get an overall picture in my mind without a lot of work.
20:13:16 <xiong> It's very difficult, that's all.
20:13:26 <Zuu> xiong: Have you tried the old-style signals with moving arms?
20:13:53 <Zuu> They are white and might give you better contrast.
20:13:55 <planetmaker> how big is your screen then, xiong ?
20:14:03 <xiong> Zuu, That's why I was trying to get semaphores straight with Alberth.
20:14:17 <xiong> planetmaker, That's a whole-screen shot.
20:14:21 <Zuu> xiong: Do you have the signal gui enabled?
20:14:36 <planetmaker> yes, but it can be on 13" or on 24" ;-)
20:14:37 <Zuu> Eg, when you click on the signal button on the toolbar, does a window appear?
20:14:39 <planetmaker> makes a difference
20:14:54 <planetmaker> yes. But that's no physical size ;-)
20:15:02 <xiong> You mean, in inches? I'm not sure. Not big; it's a laptop.
20:15:22 <planetmaker> well. there's like 11" to 17"
20:15:42 <xiong> About 12" wide. I don't have a scale handy.
20:16:21 <xiong> I'd estimate about 15", diagonally.
20:16:57 <xiong> A bigger monitor would be nice, yes. So many things would be nice.
20:17:20 <Zuu> Today you can get a 24" monitor for about 200 euro.
20:17:31 <Zuu> Not the best colors, but still.
20:17:52 <Zuu> And a 22" may be even like 150 euros or so.
20:19:21 <xiong> Zuu, I have a bigger monitor already. It's not as easy as you think. Where do I put it? Look, please, let's not try to solve this, this way.
20:19:58 <planetmaker> seems about the same scale as here.
20:20:20 <planetmaker> which acceptable IMHO
20:20:23 <Zuu> xiong: If I understand yet, you had problems finding out how to build semaphors?
20:20:33 <planetmaker> the other way to solve it is: draw bigger and nicer graphics
20:20:34 <xiong> If you want to know the entire chain of causation, it starts with buying a motor vehicle, which will allow me to go to storage and retrieve my desk, which will give me a place to put a large monitor and also a way to go get more cast-off computer gear to assemble.
20:20:45 <Zuu> Is [Advanced Settings] -> [Construction] -> [Signals] -> [Enable the signal GUI] = On?
20:20:48 <xiong> Zuu, No, I can build sems.
20:20:57 <xiong> I have the signal gui on.
20:21:51 <xiong> I think you have the right idea, planetmaker. Has this not been done? If not, well, I has graphics skills.
20:22:18 <planetmaker> It hasn't been done. At least not in 8bpp which the game supports by default.
20:22:51 <xiong> I looked at 32bpp. Should I try to install it? It looks hairy but there seems to be a win.
20:22:56 <planetmaker> There's an "extra zoom" patch with 32bpp graphics which is in non-official development
20:23:08 <planetmaker> it might suit you
20:23:27 <planetmaker> use a razor then ;-)
20:23:57 <planetmaker> the amount of hariyness might be a subjective thing
20:24:37 <xiong> My feeling about something like a signal is that although it may look cute on the board if it is representational, the player should be able to see it in the same aspect at all times. That is, it should always face the player, with an indication of which way it faces on the board. And it should be much larger.
20:25:11 <Alberth> so make a NewGRF that does exactly that
20:25:30 <planetmaker> do what Albert suggests
20:25:46 <xiong> Probably, it is not consistent with the overall game philosophy to tinker with the signal shown on the board. But some sort of pop-up or roll-over could show more detail, more abstractly.
20:25:52 <planetmaker> waiting for *someone* always takes loooong ;-)
20:26:00 <planetmaker> xiong: it's consistent
20:26:10 <xiong> You do know that I have absolutely no experience with NewGRF?
20:26:12 <planetmaker> there are replacement graphics. There are several versions. For every element
20:26:31 <planetmaker> You can replace every single sprite in the game by at least another version
20:26:46 <Alberth> planetmaker: signals should be trivial in NML, are they?
20:26:58 <planetmaker> Replacing signals is one of the easy tasks. Yes, Alberth
20:27:09 <planetmaker> it's just a boring set of actionAs / simple replacements
20:27:48 <planetmaker> Irwe seems to be in a total hiatus... :-(
20:27:48 <Alberth> we have actionAs in NML? hmm, I should read the manual one day :)
20:28:00 <planetmaker> Alberth: it's called replace ;-)
20:28:29 <xiong> Look, I know you get a lot of pointless rants from people who are not able to do any work. That's not me. But please don't suggest it will be easy to dive into a completely new environment and start developing.
20:29:01 <planetmaker> xiong: it's two things, which can be done somewhat independently.
20:29:13 <xiong> If someone is willing to work with me on this, I'm more than willing to produce signal graphics to required specs.
20:29:17 <planetmaker> Drawing the graphics is for this particular problem the way biggest part
20:29:37 <xiong> To me, no. Drawing is the easy part.
20:29:48 <planetmaker> Getting them then ingame is not the most difficult one.
20:30:07 <planetmaker> It's the easiest kind of thing one can do with newgrfs
20:30:28 <xiong> I don't like to sound snotty or arrogant but I have considerable graphic design background. Tell me the format you need signals to be in and I can turn them out.
20:31:07 <xiong> There are, IIUC, a set of 80 required: 8 directions, 5 types, 2 states.
20:31:58 <xiong> You just tell me how you want them: individual files, one big file in a matrix, what file format. I suspect this is 8-bit palette work. No problem.
20:32:32 <xiong> I'd be happiest if I could download a reference palette; that's better than stealing the palette from a screenshot.
20:32:45 <Zuu> You should probably from start get hold of the OpenTTD palette so you don't design them for some other palette.
20:33:06 <planetmaker> xiong: png format with a 8bpp palette is what's needed
20:33:16 <planetmaker> you got the amount of sprites
20:33:49 <planetmaker> I can link you to a gimp palette, there are also photoshop palettes around
20:33:58 <xiong> I don't understand what I'm looking at.
20:34:22 <xiong> # 0 First Sprite Spritecount 3862
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20:34:51 <Zuu> hmm, have purnos grf guide been down for long time?
20:34:55 <planetmaker> xiong: search for 'signals'
20:35:13 <planetmaker> important is that they're on this blue background
20:35:30 <planetmaker> this blue = transparent
20:35:56 <planetmaker> and they need to follow either the windows or DOS palette. You can chose, doesn't matter which.
20:36:02 <xiong> Okay, well, the second link of planetmaker's is clear. There's the palette, in a few forms.
20:36:17 <xiong> The first link is obscure.
20:36:29 <planetmaker> the firs link only gives the sprites found in one file from the base graphics you use
20:36:35 <planetmaker> among them the path signals
20:37:57 <xiong> Okay, well, this is where I'm going to get stuck. I don't know my way around. Are you willing to work with me on this? I'm happy to crank out the graphics themselves. I don't think I'll get to the point of being able to package them as a NewGRF.
20:37:59 <Alberth> xiong: in the first link, sprite #1254 is the first with signals
20:38:15 <planetmaker> actually #1497 is somewhat like a signal set
20:38:37 <planetmaker> xiong: just get the signals
20:39:32 <planetmaker> Arrange them in a somewhat convenient way in a graphics file (like all 8 which belong together at the same y-offset or so - that makes linking them easier than finding each *somehwere*)
20:39:38 <planetmaker> and then we can get it done
20:40:24 <planetmaker> yes, I can help you there
20:40:28 <xiong> So, all in one file, as a matrix. Okay; I've done that.
20:40:39 <planetmaker> you have. already?
20:40:44 <xiong> What is the practical limit of the bounding box?
20:41:01 <xiong> I hacked Alpha Centauri and CivII.
20:41:54 <planetmaker> practically there's not a limit which is smaller than anything which would look really awkward
20:42:03 <xiong> I meant, the bounding box for an individual signal. Obviously, I want them big. Just as obviously, there's a limit, which depends on many things I can't yet appreciate.
20:42:37 <planetmaker> You'll get problems if it gets to a height of ~170(?) pixels. Probably same with width
20:42:49 <planetmaker> But even those problems are not that severe
20:43:20 <planetmaker> Hm... a width must not exceed 63 actually
20:43:27 <xiong> Well, that would probably be considered seriously outsize.
20:43:45 <planetmaker> it'd be higher than most skyscrapers ingame
20:45:23 <xiong> Yah, that looks about right. 32px.
20:45:24 <planetmaker> or rather 31 + 1 pixel border
20:45:47 <planetmaker> but signals must not include ground or track
20:46:10 <xiong> So, perhaps it would be reasonable to plan signals 48px tall, 32 wide?
20:47:10 <xiong> Probably not quite that wide. Existing light signals look to me about 22px tall.
20:47:26 <planetmaker> 32 wide is quite wide
20:47:53 <xiong> Let me sketch something out. BB in a few.
20:48:04 <planetmaker> a train wagon has a length of 32px in -- view
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20:53:30 <andythenorth_> diagonal roads would be nice :P
20:54:32 <planetmaker> you really breed ponies, eh? ;-)
21:00:53 <andythenorth_> my idea to allow farms to build on steep slopes was nice....but it makes building RV stops tricky :)
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21:41:35 <xiong> In that sketch, the relationship between the signal and the track is wrong. I mean for the arrow to indicate direction of travel.
21:41:39 <planetmaker> what's the purpose of that white arrow?
21:42:10 <xiong> At first, I thought the arrow should point in the direction the signal is facing; but that's opposite direction of travel, which is kinda weird.
21:42:11 <planetmaker> so you don't want to show the proper rotations at all?
21:42:26 <xiong> No. All signals face the player directly.
21:42:37 <planetmaker> that'll be really confusing
21:42:52 <xiong> Well, it will be visible to old farts like me.
21:43:14 <planetmaker> what about using that size and rotating it accordingly?
21:43:29 <xiong> I can think of a few variations on the arrow. That one is merely highly visible.
21:43:53 <xiong> Ah, but the whole point, in my mind, is that every signal looks "the same". I don't want a signal to face away from me!
21:43:57 <planetmaker> so... the signal placed as shown there could not be there at all
21:44:09 <planetmaker> xiong: what's wrong with that?
21:44:16 <xiong> Actually, I think I have the signal placed right on the track ;)
21:44:18 <planetmaker> you don't need to see the signal state
21:44:38 <planetmaker> I didn't mean the placement but track direction and arrow. Which is perpendicular
21:44:39 <xiong> Well I tell you, this is what makes sense to me. Sorry.
21:45:22 <xiong> Oh, as I said, in the sketch, the arrow shows that travel is permitted from southwest to northeast. Look, let me flip something; it will be better.
21:46:52 <planetmaker> I'm quite convinced that the orientation will really become more difficult, if there's only a tiny part of the signal indicating the way it faces
21:47:09 <planetmaker> the actual signal state is usually of no importance at all to the player
21:47:20 <planetmaker> important is facing and type
21:47:56 <planetmaker> the emphasis of your sprite is more on the signal state than the rest
21:48:54 <xiong> Well, that's actual size; and I can *see* which way traffic is allowed and what sort of signal it is.
21:49:49 <planetmaker> in any case, your approach makes implementation dead easy. Every sprite has the same size
21:49:49 <xiong> If you're accustomed to having signals facing away from you, I can see how this might look very weird. But for me, coming in from the outside, it makes total sense.
21:50:59 <xiong> I figure to construct all the elements on different layers and composite them. I'll probably construct the actual elements in a vector graphics editor and rasterize them to layers. This is a proven technique of mine.
21:51:30 <planetmaker> whatever works :-)
21:52:30 <xiong> I can't say it's all that informative, unfortunately. The effort was sabotaged by the minders.
21:52:30 <planetmaker> Myself I'm off to bed now, but we can easily create a grf from that another, if the sprites are there
21:52:44 <planetmaker> he, yeah.... wiki
21:53:26 <xiong> Okay, well, I'm off to beat the streets for filthy lucre myself. I'll do a little work on this and show you. We should probably pick a better place than a random image pastebin to share.
21:54:46 <planetmaker> open a dedicated thread in the graphics development sub-forum
21:55:16 <planetmaker> or if you don't like it public, mail me
21:55:33 <planetmaker> mind that I only write newgrf which are GPL licensed ;-)
21:57:08 <xiong> Public is fine. Pick a license, you're part of it. I prefer CC, I think it's better adapted to non-code stuff. But I'm mostly indifferent, so long as it's libre-gratis.
21:57:36 <planetmaker> GPL is CC-BY with requirement to publish code on request
21:57:42 <planetmaker> so no difference for graphics really
21:58:42 <xiong> As I said, whatever makes you comfortable. I'd release into public domain if I wasn't (a) concerned about commercial takeover and (b) not so vain as to demur credit.
21:59:36 <xiong> It's really a non-issue to me. I think, in practice, all copyright -- even copyleft -- is impractical to defend. You assert whatever you please and then reality takes over.
22:00:07 <xiong> In the world of FOSS, theft is the highest form of praise. ;)
22:00:38 <xiong> Anyway, I gotta jump in the shower. Next 3 days will be busy. I'll see what I can get out.
22:00:51 <xiong> Have a good night, planetmaker.
22:00:59 <planetmaker> good night, too :-)
22:18:32 <Eddi|zuHause> why the hell is X using 800MB of memory?
22:21:51 *** Prof_Frink has joined #openttd
22:23:57 <trebuchet> Xorg is faaaaaaaaat
22:24:09 <trebuchet> Just a text terminal.
23:38:33 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
