IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-10-11
⏴ go to previous day
00:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "the date is 2005. it must be wrong" is a genious thought :)
00:17:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
00:48:42 *** mattfury has joined #openttd
00:52:24 <mattfury> will you be adding any new trains/planes into ottd?
00:53:38 <trebuchet> No but we got a lot of new cars.
00:54:03 <mattfury> trucks always sucked.. .wasted too much money
00:57:51 <mattfury> trebuchet, did you come from freenode?
00:58:45 <mattfury> im still there on a couple of channels that dont want to move :|
01:43:36 *** Wizzleby has joined #openttd
01:44:39 *** Blacklite has joined #openttd
01:58:05 *** Xrufuian has joined #openttd
03:18:24 <Xrufuian> What is a "feeder system"?
04:56:40 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
05:39:10 *** Kurimus has joined #openttd
06:28:22 *** Cybertinus has joined #openttd
06:28:40 *** ^Spike^ has joined #openttd
07:07:12 <heffer> Rubidium: any idea which version number GRFCodec + merged nforenum will have?
07:07:42 <heffer> i'm trying to do something like BuildRequires: grfcodec >= 1.0.1 or something the like
07:09:07 <Rubidium> I'm planning 5.0.0-ish, but it's not set in stone yet
07:21:06 *** Br33z4hSlut5 has joined #openttd
07:29:46 *** Adambean has joined #openttd
07:31:57 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
07:50:34 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
07:56:09 <planetmaker> I obsoleted 'old wagon new cargos' ;-)
07:58:55 <dihedral> had a meeting all weekend
07:59:06 <dihedral> 'ausschuss sitzung' ... yumm?
07:59:27 <dihedral> i was really tired when i got back home, but then slept for 12 hours straight which was nice :-D
08:54:08 <peter1138> heffer, it crashed.
08:54:45 <heffer> that far i got as well, but now i'm investigating why
08:55:37 <peter1138> It was checking for a road depot on a non-road tile.
08:55:52 <Rubidium> yeah, from TileLoop_Road
08:56:33 <Rubidium> which is quite interesting: a road tile not being a road tile
08:57:01 <Rubidium> and that smells of corrupt memory
08:57:36 <heffer> okay so it's not a bug in ottd?
08:58:58 <heffer> No it's not, or No it is?
08:59:20 <heffer> i hate double negations :) but that one was my fault :D
08:59:56 <peter1138> It's either a faulty compilter optimisation, or faulty hardware; could be memory, CPU or motherboard.
09:00:14 <peter1138> Not enough tin-foil hats, I reckon.
09:00:42 <heffer> :) thanks a lot for this short analysis
09:23:11 *** Wizzleby has joined #openttd
09:26:22 *** Progman has joined #openttd
09:30:01 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
09:33:10 *** Wizzleby has joined #openttd
09:58:45 *** TomyLobo has joined #openttd
10:05:47 <mattfury> Didn't know you came to OFTC ...
10:27:10 *** _Terkhen_ has joined #openttd
10:35:53 *** _Terkhen_ has joined #openttd
10:36:33 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
10:49:35 *** Hirundo has joined #openttd
10:50:05 *** Terkhen has joined #openttd
10:50:35 *** V453000 has joined #openttd
11:10:55 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd
11:16:51 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
11:22:08 *** Born_Acorn has joined #openttd
11:27:13 *** glevans2 has joined #openttd
11:48:49 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
12:02:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
12:02:16 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
12:17:59 *** theholyduck has joined #openttd
12:36:51 *** Born_Acorn has joined #openttd
12:38:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
12:40:01 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
12:40:01 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
13:15:50 <xiong> Hm. I removed some track, intending to replace its route with track elsewhere; but the new track didn't function as expected. So, a couple trains went down the wrong track to a dead end and couldn't get out, due to the one-way signals. Then, I couldn't build track because the signals were in the way. So, I deleted the signals and had a cornfield meet. Now there are two wrecked trains on that track. What now?
13:16:18 <SpComb> and the trains dissapear
13:16:36 <SpComb> ideally clone replacement trains for them before they expire
13:18:21 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
13:18:42 <xiong> Um, I smell an issue coming up. Until I finally get that track in place and signaled, perhaps I don't want to run any trains around there. Is there an 'all trains stop' button? Or must I stop each individually?
13:31:20 <dihedral> xiong, an idea is to setup the new route before deleting the old route ;-)
13:32:24 <xiong> Oh, I did that. But the new route just didn't work.
13:33:04 <xiong> I know; you're going to say, wait until a train actually runs over the new route, perhaps wait until several trains go over that way and test out the interlocking. Good idea.
13:33:42 <xiong> Now, I have two trains deadlocked, both fouling the mainline.
13:35:19 <planetmaker> a common mistake is a piece of unelectrified tracks ...
13:35:36 <xiong> I'm starting to think that my whole setup was a Bad Idea. See, I have a mainline running between two towns -- not from one to the other but from a distant town to another distant town; both of these local towns branch off the mainline about the same place. The interlocking is horrible as trains try to get across the mainline -- not down the mainline but across it.
13:36:41 <xiong> It looks vaguely like an old-fashioned division sign, with a local loop on either side of the mainline. Except that there needs to be some way to get from local loop to local loop without going right around the whole map.
13:37:04 <planetmaker> best I can do is read. But that's often not worthwhile concerning track layouts when there's as screenshot function at hand ;-)
13:37:18 <xiong> I guess this is a case of "nearest is farthest". I should have attached the local loops somehow to the mainline at widely-spaced points.
13:37:43 <planetmaker> Each local line needs a good hub to the main line
13:37:47 <planetmaker> without ugly shortcuts
13:37:52 <planetmaker> Then most trouble can be avoided
13:38:04 <xiong> Oh yeh, well, I'll post a shot, just so you can see how badly I've screwed up.
13:38:29 <planetmaker> don't worry really :-)
13:38:37 <planetmaker> You seem to have a solution, if I got you right
13:39:53 <planetmaker> I also tend to measure by building standards not everyone here agrees to ;-)
13:41:39 <planetmaker> what are your signals doing, btw?
13:42:49 <xiong> I got into this mess because of my crappy signal layout.
13:43:41 <xiong> The cornfield meet was even worse; I deleted some signals from a line where two trains were lost -- near the current deadlock area -- without stopping all trains. Live and learn.
13:44:10 <planetmaker> re-constructing with stopping trains is boring ;-)
13:44:34 <xiong> The two crossovers are not redundant but are very, very badly placed.
13:45:03 <planetmaker> the deadlock is of course due to wrong signal usage: only place a path signal where there's a _save_ waiting location without blocking any path
13:45:06 *** orudge` is now known as orudge
13:45:46 <xiong> Perhaps you can see what led me to that placement. I'd have rather put the Butler-to-Harrisburg crossover towards the northwest but the road is in the way.
13:46:17 <xiong> That would be more sensible, getting the Butler-to-Harrisburg traffic off the mainline as quickly as possible.
13:46:37 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
13:46:43 <xiong> I can think of a dozen ways to solve this, of course; but as it happens, I chose the worst.
13:46:48 <planetmaker> of course. It has no business on the ML
13:47:15 <xiong> Oh, and yes, planetmaker, you're right. I have too many signals entirely, so trains are waiting in bad places.
13:48:06 <xiong> Bridge? I have not yet built a bridge. That's a fancy solution. Hey, if I build enough bridges, I hardly have to think about interlocking at all.
13:48:37 <xiong> The map will start to look like a freeway cloverleaf.
13:49:00 <planetmaker> cloverleafs also deadlock ;-)
13:49:08 <xiong> I didn't know I could bridge track anyway. Don't I have to have a difference of grade?
13:49:09 <planetmaker> they have joins before split
13:49:41 <xiong> Time to study up on bridges.
13:49:50 <planetmaker> or build tunnels ;-)
13:50:04 <mattfury> why cant we make two or more story bridges? ;P
13:50:25 <planetmaker> you didn't code that extension yet, mattfury
13:51:02 <mattfury> not sure if i want to try. :P
13:51:14 <planetmaker> so were obviously all others
13:51:28 <planetmaker> there you have your answer: no one bother(s/ed)
13:52:53 <planetmaker> at least not enough to start an effort coding anything close to that
13:53:21 <mattfury> nah it'd just be a pain in the ass feature..
13:53:51 <mattfury> first off you have x,y .. then you need to add z coordinates..
13:54:05 <planetmaker> you have that... kinda
13:54:30 <mattfury> zx = complex algorithim divided by zero kinda stuff
13:54:32 <planetmaker> the problem is to make it look good
13:54:44 <xiong> Oh, that would be semi-hideous. Which way would the tracks go at either end? I have enough trouble carefully placing tracks diagonal to the grid on the correct diagonal.
13:55:18 <mattfury> i say we make ottd hexagonal like civ5 :P
13:55:23 <planetmaker> xiong: you don't drag your tracks?
13:55:25 <xiong> So, the deal with bridging grade is... no special deal, you just do it, eh?
13:56:26 <xiong> planetmaker, Sometimes. But for the complex stuff, which to me, means anything except a straight, I have to dabble in the short bits or they go in funny. More old eyesight, I guess, aggravated by jiggly fingers.
13:58:03 <xiong> Hm! Study-up on bridges led to canals, locks, and aqueducts. I had no idea this game was so detailed. This puts an entirely different face on sea power.
13:59:13 <mattfury> xiong, do you use the multitool?
13:59:41 <planetmaker> whatever 'multitool' is...
13:59:52 <planetmaker> that's as bad a naming as 'multipool'
13:59:57 <planetmaker> both don't exist ;-)
14:00:00 <xiong> mattfury, You mean the road/rail building tools that can go in any direction? Sometimes. I like the security of laying down exactly one section, exactly as I want it to go.
14:00:40 <planetmaker> click - click - click. One direction will be correct ;-)
14:01:19 <mattfury> maybe if you use a ps2 trackball mouse...
14:01:20 <xiong> I'm happy with the road/rail building tools as a set. I get it done. At first, I didn't understand the distinction between demolish and bulldoze but I'm fine, now. I successfully removed an entire crossover from the mainline without disturbing ML at all.
14:01:42 <planetmaker> yeah, bulldozer is nice :-)
14:01:56 <planetmaker> and you even don't need it, if you know how to use the ctrl key ;-)
14:02:16 <planetmaker> build + ctrl = remove
14:05:06 <xiong> Ah, the sweet smell of properly running machinery! I successfully broke the deadlock without doing anything too weird, by sending all trains to depot and turning them around at need.
14:05:58 <xiong> Turning around is *displayed* non-realistically but it's completely realistic to run a train for miles in reverse. Quite acceptable.
14:06:45 <planetmaker> it cannot be easily done realistically.
14:06:49 <xiong> We have a lot of commuter lines in US that never loop; they run all the way from suburb to city in reverse. The 'last' car on the train has a secondary cab in it.
14:07:12 <planetmaker> It can be done via newgrf extension for certain types of trains
14:07:30 <planetmaker> it's the choice (and the effort and skill) of the newgrf coder
14:07:47 <planetmaker> unfortunately normal trains don't.
14:07:48 <xiong> I'm not fussy. I know it's not as weird as right-angle turns.
14:08:05 <planetmaker> right-angle - is it meanwhile forbidden by default?
14:08:17 <xiong> You notice that I have tried to avoid these in my layout.
14:08:42 <planetmaker> I only notice when they're present ;-)
14:08:48 <xiong> Um, dunno if I turned that on or left it. I figured to buy myself some insurance in case I did bad.
14:09:23 <xiong> Now, let me try to build a bridge over the ML.
14:14:49 <xiong> Oh, I have so shafted myself! I can't build a road bridge -- obviously the first task -- because the road tees right there; and I can't demolish the depot without selling the bus in it.
14:15:04 <xiong> Proper planning prevents problems, eh?
14:17:39 <xiong> Still disaster! The bridge hops the ML but runs right into the Butler loop. I have a burning desire to start over but I will manfully stay the course.
14:22:16 <xiong> Okay, success with the road bridge. I dunno if I will rail bridge Butler-Harrisburg or no. Perhaps I should just redesign the interlocking. Anyway, it's time for Beddy with Teddy; big day tomorrow. Thanks all.
14:26:23 *** Devroush has joined #openttd
14:55:55 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
16:29:43 <KouDy> planetmaker: thanks for your replies on the forum regarding the enhanced tunnels...
16:29:52 <KouDy> tho i don't really understand your last one :D
16:31:17 <KouDy> but i guess it means something like : sucks to be you dude, you would have to code it on your own
16:31:33 <planetmaker> basically that's it, yes
16:31:43 <KouDy> yea... i know only Tcl...
16:31:54 <KouDy> and with that i am no expert either
16:32:03 <planetmaker> you'd need to dive into C/C++
16:32:07 <planetmaker> which can be learnt :-)
16:32:40 <KouDy> but well... rather than that i had other idea today (what a fruitfull day it was!)
16:33:02 <KouDy> getting dedicated server running on ARM CPU based device (quite a few NAS drives)
16:33:12 <KouDy> that should be easier task
16:33:22 <planetmaker> do you think that makes sense?
16:33:37 <planetmaker> a server usually wants to be the fastest CPU
16:33:45 <planetmaker> so that the game lags not because of it
16:33:54 <planetmaker> (though technically clients need to be ~20% faster)
16:34:05 <KouDy> yea i was thinking about this aspect too...
16:34:38 <KouDy> it's hard to determine actually... how powerfull CPU one needs
16:35:21 <planetmaker> it strongly depends on the game(s)
16:36:19 <KouDy> no i mean, like everyone has powerfull CPU (for game like OTTD)
16:36:37 <planetmaker> oh, I can give you games your CPU will sweat on, no worry
16:36:47 <planetmaker> we regularily have some which I cannot join anymore
16:38:37 <planetmaker> those games are then like 512^2 @ 1500 trains
16:39:04 <KouDy> then it's time to play :D
16:39:05 *** Prof_Frink has joined #openttd
16:42:06 <planetmaker> make sure you report back in the FIRS development thread :-)
16:42:13 <planetmaker> and use the newest FIRS 0.5
16:45:38 <davis> ECS is pretty good just the sand pit does not quite fit ;P
16:50:15 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
16:51:32 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
16:52:59 <planetmaker> well... ingame download and activation is not that difficult :-)
16:54:23 <KouDy> ingame? i just looked and is it there?
16:55:03 <planetmaker> find that button in the main menu?
16:55:35 <planetmaker> but don't think of activating an industry set on an existing map :-)
16:55:50 <KouDy> yes yes i know new map is needed
16:56:11 <KouDy> and surprisingly i also found hereinbefore mentioned button
16:56:52 <KouDy> but finding FIRS there... O.o
16:58:29 <Rubidium> yeah, that's at least three keystrokes more before you found that
16:59:27 <KouDy> no, sorry, i am totally blind or something... manual installation worked simply faster
17:02:24 <Rubidium> ah, so FIRS isn't available for 1.0.x
17:02:43 * Rubidium blames the uploader for that
17:03:13 <KouDy> i am happy to find out i might not be blind after all
17:05:40 *** Adambean has joined #openttd
17:06:53 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
17:22:38 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
17:32:49 <planetmaker> hm... I guess I shall fix that
17:33:20 <planetmaker> andy can bash me, if it will be wrong, but he complained about insufficient feedback ;-)
17:38:03 <planetmaker> KouDy: changed. Now you can download it with stable
17:38:20 <planetmaker> There are some small reasons to forbid that, but the limitations or minor
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20915 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt irish.txt):
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by norbert79
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: irish - 7 changes by tem
17:46:00 <planetmaker> that saves the nightly ;-)
17:54:50 <KouDy> tho i ventured into something else for a bit
17:56:55 <KouDy> i'm trying to put together some kind of table (or database) which can be used as cross reference for what on earth should belong to where (read as cargo123 is to be delivered into plant456)
18:00:53 *** ajmiles has joined #openttd
18:10:05 <planetmaker> you should play with nightly. It has a in-built cargo graphcs
18:13:18 <KouDy> how exactly does that one work?
18:13:44 <frosch123> planetmaker: "Allows to set compatibility." still sounds broken
18:14:09 <KouDy> what if only one type of cargo is delivered, how then is determined which output will be created by the plant (if any)
18:14:33 <planetmaker> frosch123: do you have a better proposal?
18:14:42 <planetmaker> Maybe just... 'disable default waggons'
18:15:28 <planetmaker> KouDy: only the quantity of input counts wrt ouput. Which is equally distributed among types
18:15:51 <KouDy> that makes things easier i guess
18:17:16 <frosch123> what does the setting actually do?
18:17:46 <frosch123> set climate to 0 for all wagons?
18:18:55 <frosch123> maybe "Disable this setting to keep the default non-refittable single-cargo wagons. You should especially disable this setting, if you have already built such wagons."
18:19:12 <frosch123> But then i would suggest to rename the setting to "Keep default wagons"
18:19:25 <frosch123> so there are less duplicate negations :p
18:20:14 <planetmaker> yes, it sets climate to 0 for all default wagons
18:20:22 <planetmaker> (well, those which are not needed)
18:28:40 *** fjb is now known as Guest2419
18:36:51 <Zuu> Hmm, interesting IP I got, 2.x.y.z Never seen that I had a such low initial number before. :-)
18:37:40 <Zuu> (I haven't got broadband yet in my new apartment so it is just a 3G-connection)
18:40:52 <Zuu> Oh, and if someone though that Visual Basic or some other language sucks, they should try to program in VAP. XD. Very limited set of built in functions, no posibility to define your own functions - only subroutines. Subroutines can't take arguments nor pass results and there are no local variables - only global vars. At least you don't need to deal with multi-threading. :-p
18:41:24 <Zuu> Eg. max, min, abs or mod do not exist in that language.
18:43:04 <__ln__> Is that a real-world language? (Versus academic or joke.)
18:43:19 <Zuu> It is used to program traffic signals in VisSim.
18:44:16 <Zuu> VisSim is the defacto professional traffic simulation software out there.
18:45:52 *** ProfFrink has joined #openttd
18:46:40 <SmatZ> Zuu: such a language is fine by me :)
18:47:05 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
18:47:16 <SmatZ> you can always use global variables to simulate the stack
18:47:45 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
18:47:53 <SmatZ> each thread can use its separate stack
18:48:27 <SmatZ> just it seems to me using an ASM would be easier :)
18:51:02 <Zuu> There is also a COM-interface for VisSim so you could use a more modern language instead. The only problem would be finding time to get into it. :-)
18:51:35 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
19:08:33 <planetmaker> hm... invading the romulan empire with Dragon class baseships seems wrong ;-)
19:09:25 <__ln__> is that a federation class or what?
19:13:53 *** V453000 is now known as Guest2424
19:15:46 <planetmaker> Dragon class base ships are from the Cylons ;-)
19:16:00 <planetmaker> you know... those mother ships hunting the Galactica
19:17:06 <planetmaker> But then... I eliminated the Borg already :-P
19:20:37 <planetmaker> actually... that game is running since mid 2007 ;-)
19:21:50 <planetmaker> with ~1.5 turns a week it takes time
19:37:25 *** V453000 has joined #openttd
20:04:59 <KouDy> hmmm some cargo types can be produced in more than one industry type
20:06:53 <KouDy> planetmaker: waste is not impleneted yet?
20:09:22 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
20:22:02 * Priski just makes a random appearance
21:19:09 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
21:40:03 * SmatZ hopes the czech O2 will end as AOL
23:02:12 *** KritiK_ has joined #openttd
23:16:54 *** KritiK_ has joined #openttd
23:22:34 *** KritiK_ is now known as KritiK
23:32:04 *** peter1138 has joined #openttd
23:32:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o peter1138
23:32:41 <peter1138> Why does my non-blocking code no longer work after a reboot (and a long overdue kernel upgrade)
23:33:02 <FauxFaux> Because it wasn't defined before but happened to work? :)
23:33:50 <peter1138> It worked perfectly, now I get send: Resource temporarily unavailable.
23:34:40 <FauxFaux> As in, the code was wrong but happened to work. i.e. the way that int *p=new int; delete p; *p=5; normally works.
23:36:10 <glx> blame the compiler if it accepts it ;)
23:37:05 <FauxFaux> Fails to fail on both debug C++ implementations I have to hand.
continue to next day ⏵
