IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-09-25
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04:10:33 <Vadtec> i havent had a chance to keep up with openttd, has any of the cargodest stuff been worked on recently (im currently checking the wiki)
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07:09:34 <andythenorth> does anyone know how town growth works :P
07:13:28 <andythenorth> I am reading town_cmd.cpp, but not clear on the growth mechanism
07:14:56 <andythenorth> specifically, the number of stations that cargo must be loaded / unloaded at
07:15:09 <andythenorth> or is it up to 5, and above 5 has no further effect?
07:21:36 <andythenorth> so each station increases the grow chance, up to 5
07:22:01 <andythenorth> I should wiki edit :P
07:23:02 <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you think that it should be possible to build docks on 'corner' coast tiles?
07:23:21 <andythenorth> currently only possible on NW-SE and SW-NE tiles
07:23:35 <andythenorth> depots and RV stops can be built on corner tiles
07:24:55 <Terkhen> depends on why it was limited to those tiles
07:25:08 <andythenorth> case would be places like this:
07:25:32 <andythenorth> these are more common on my maps now someone kindly made it possible to control water amount better :)
07:26:08 <andythenorth> it's probably a graphical issue with foundations :(
07:28:17 <andythenorth> default docks don't have sprites for corner coast tiles :(
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07:31:14 <ccfreak2k> andythenorth, I bet over 190 of that population are crammed into that hotel-type building.
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07:49:16 <andythenorth> why does provide ship service cause towns to shrink?
07:50:13 <andythenorth> I have 'outstanding' rating and 'very good' at the dock
07:50:34 <andythenorth> the town has shrunk from 335 to 72 over a couple of years
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07:51:22 <andythenorth> I've seen this happen several times :(
07:51:32 <Terkhen> I don't remember the ratings, but in my last game a pair of towns connected with ferries grew fine
07:51:51 <Terkhen> IIRC the stations must be within a certain distance of the center of the town
07:53:52 <andythenorth> Terkhen: the issue is the foundations :)
07:54:00 <andythenorth> try it with original graphics...
07:54:08 <andythenorth> the docks are narrower
07:54:25 <Terkhen> besides, there is another problem
07:54:42 <Terkhen> in which direction should the dock be built?
07:55:49 <andythenorth> guess I just have to save up and terraform
07:56:01 <andythenorth> I'm going off ferry service to small towns anyway, it seems destructive
07:57:13 <andythenorth> is the issue that the town is trying to grow quite happily, but is just replacing offices/shops with small houses?
07:57:53 <andythenorth> there is hardly any road in these towns. Does that affect building choice?
08:04:33 <andythenorth> depending what the current 'normal' value is?
08:04:51 <andythenorth> i.e. if normal value is 100
08:05:22 <andythenorth> does building try and increase popn count, or just number of buildings?
08:08:21 <andythenorth> the town isn't growing. it's rebuilding existing houses
08:08:31 <andythenorth> is that handled differently?
08:13:59 <Terkhen> good morning planetmaker
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08:16:07 <andythenorth> what does BuildTownHouse do....
08:16:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth: does FIRS still use FRVG instead of FRUT?
08:16:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: currently
08:16:45 <andythenorth> I'm open to suggestions
08:17:24 <planetmaker> hm, ok. I just wonder why it is really necessary to introduce that label which is the same cargo as FRUT. I know that the cargo classes are different, but... does it really matter?
08:17:51 <andythenorth> foobar defined it originally
08:17:52 <planetmaker> I mean... any really decent wagon set will provide special graphics and as such do anyway with both fruit and frvg the same thing
08:18:03 <planetmaker> it sounded logical back then
08:18:18 <planetmaker> It doesn't now that I play with OpenGFX+trains and assign cargos to sprites
08:18:30 <andythenorth> I'll update the code if you update the TTDP wiki :P
08:18:41 <andythenorth> meanwhile....houses :P
08:18:55 <planetmaker> basically it just means that I have to check for both cargos. and anyway assign it to the same wagon sprites
08:19:11 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'll change it, I have no problem with the idea
08:19:15 <planetmaker> As I enforce my own idea what wagons can transport it ;-)
08:19:31 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I can't see anything that checks popn when generating the list of available houses
08:19:43 <andythenorth> not suggesting it should...
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08:22:23 <planetmaker> let me ponder about that change a bit more, though, andythenorth :-)
08:24:15 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I don't know either; first time in this part of the code... I'm still checking that 420
08:24:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: let me know when you're done pondering, then I'll change it :)
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08:26:58 <andythenorth> it's less fun when all towns are shrinking :|
08:27:03 <andythenorth> bit like detroit :o
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08:28:21 <Terkhen> andythenorth: can you try having two different docks instead of a single one in a few towns?
08:32:04 <ccfreak2k> <andythenorth> I have 'outstanding' rating and 'very good' at the dock
08:32:05 <ccfreak2k> <andythenorth> the town has shrunk from 335 to 72 over a couple of year
08:32:10 <ccfreak2k> The island is so damn small.
08:32:35 <andythenorth> thanks, that's helpful :D
08:33:10 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what happened to your 'transfer and leave empty' patch?
08:33:19 <andythenorth> it's not made it to trunk :(
08:35:05 <planetmaker> I guess... it didn't attract enough interest with the people who could change that
08:36:25 <andythenorth> rubidium seemed interested briefly :o
08:36:41 <andythenorth> there was some talk of using ctrl-click on it
08:43:26 <andythenorth> planetmaker: have you tried a build of ISR?
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08:44:17 <planetmaker> yes. zillions of warnings
08:44:30 <andythenorth> do you get a grf at the end?
08:44:41 <planetmaker> I didn't check :-D
08:46:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't :-O
08:46:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth: run it again. Then it works
08:47:27 <andythenorth> yup works for me too
08:47:59 <andythenorth> dunno whether to adopt ISR, or branch it for my own ends
08:48:17 <andythenorth> I want something slightly different to what it does
08:48:38 <planetmaker> what do you need what it doesn't supply?
08:49:17 <andythenorth> (1) better ground tiles
08:49:22 <andythenorth> don't like the current ones
08:49:28 <andythenorth> (2) slightly....less stuff
08:51:04 <andythenorth> (3) some really simple station tiles
09:07:15 <andythenorth> Terkhen: the towns are growing in number of buildings
09:07:26 <andythenorth> and they seem to rebuild existing houses quite frequently
09:07:38 <Terkhen> the ones with two stations?
09:07:50 <andythenorth> with and without two stations
09:08:05 <andythenorth> it's not a very scientific study :)
09:08:39 <andythenorth> the issue is that they demolish offices/shops and rebuild with small houses
09:09:12 <andythenorth> the map generator has favoured placing quite a lot of shops/offices, but it seems the in-game routine might favour small houses
09:09:17 <andythenorth> could be a date thing...?
09:09:22 <andythenorth> I'm playing in 1870s
09:12:47 <planetmaker> any house-newgrf, andythenorth ?
09:12:57 <andythenorth> default, temperate
09:13:07 <andythenorth> shops and offices shouldn't be available until 1930
09:13:13 <andythenorth> but the map gen builds them anyway
09:13:43 <andythenorth> then the towns inevitably shrink (and stop accepting goods)
09:14:04 <andythenorth> so providing good service will destroy a town popn and goods acceptance
09:14:14 <andythenorth> the unserviced towns still have shops+offices
09:14:36 <planetmaker> I've seen that once or twice, too. But... not really in a reproducable way and I attributed it to the usual fluctations of houses so far
09:14:48 <andythenorth> ships *do* make it worse
09:14:53 <Terkhen> houses are too random :)
09:15:15 <planetmaker> well. I don't think, they're *too* random
09:15:34 <andythenorth> ships -> higher station rating -> more frequent rebuilding -> town popn destroyed faster
09:15:42 <Terkhen> they are just too random to conclude anything from a single game / town
09:15:53 <andythenorth> I've seen this before in other games though.
09:16:06 <planetmaker> ah, too random in that sense. yes
09:16:32 <andythenorth> I think it's valid ... *assuming* that the build dates given in wiki are accurate for ottd
09:16:44 <planetmaker> any idea what to do with unused sprites for a caboose and a tender?
09:16:57 <andythenorth> I'm not sure that the build dates are accurate
09:17:04 <planetmaker> how they would be best applied as added value?
09:17:17 <andythenorth> most houses are shown as available 1930....that can't be true
09:17:24 <andythenorth> planetmaker: tender, no idea
09:17:35 <andythenorth> caboose....provide a caboose? :P
09:17:53 <planetmaker> who'd use it, if it had no effect?
09:17:55 <Terkhen> they are not; some houses like the church have a min year of 0
09:18:20 <andythenorth> Terkhen: what file are they defined in?
09:18:34 <Terkhen> src/table/town_land.h
09:19:49 <Terkhen> mmm... please, don't add complications to ogfx+ trains
09:20:43 <andythenorth> there seems to be at least one set of shops and offices available from year 0
09:20:43 <andythenorth> STR_TOWN_BUILDING_NAME_SHOPS_AND_OFFICES_2
09:21:35 <Terkhen> andythenorth: houses with a starting date of 1930 in the table have a starting date of 0 in OpenTTD
09:22:02 <andythenorth> in the wiki table, or the src?
09:22:24 <Terkhen> 1930 in wiki table -> 0 in openttd src
09:22:47 <andythenorth> so STR_TOWN_BUILDING_NAME_SHOPS_AND_OFFICES_2 is the only shop/office building available in temperate prior to 1930
09:22:51 <andythenorth> far as I can see anyway
09:23:28 <andythenorth> wonder if it's just random effect: shops/offices are available, but more house types are available, so more get built
09:23:33 <andythenorth> or it could be a zones thing
09:23:42 <andythenorth> the map gen seems to behave rather differently
09:24:31 <planetmaker> [11:19] <Terkhen> mmm... please, don't add complications to ogfx+ trains <-- that's why I'm asking. I don't want to degrade default vehicles
09:24:43 <planetmaker> But maybe a caboose or coal wagon could add something _extra_ :-)
09:25:13 <planetmaker> like ... dunno. More power. More TE. More reliability. Dunno
09:25:26 <Terkhen> as long as you are not forced to use them it will be fine
09:25:31 <Terkhen> I'd give them a parameter, though
09:25:45 <planetmaker> No. They must remain purely optional. No question about that
09:26:23 <andythenorth> they've both definitely grown in number of tiles
09:26:26 <planetmaker> hm... via parameter. That's an idea :-)
09:26:43 <Terkhen> I'm guessing most of those office buildings shouldn't be present in 1870
09:26:59 <planetmaker> he. already 500 lines of NML code concerning wagons alone .-)
09:29:21 * andythenorth looks for map generator town code
09:33:10 <Terkhen> hmm... what about hotkeys for common order types? should be possible with configurable hotkeys
09:34:28 * andythenorth can see how map gen founds town, but not how houses are added
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09:43:55 <planetmaker> are there any for order types so far?
09:45:43 <planetmaker> some... d and f at least. f funnily deletes orders
09:45:58 <planetmaker> probably "forget"
09:46:37 <Terkhen> defining the same key for two types does not work, though (transfer and no_load)
09:47:35 <planetmaker> Terkhen: but it would work, if transfer implies 'no load'
09:48:27 <planetmaker> IMHO it makes perfect sense to always select 'no load' when transfer is selected.
09:48:40 * Terkhen wonders what use could have transfer and take cargo
09:48:46 <andythenorth> makes perfect sense to me too
09:48:58 <andythenorth> the only use for 'transfer and take cargo' is.....
09:49:06 <planetmaker> Terkhen: it could be used for some kind of cheating. Last pickup counts for station rating
09:49:35 <planetmaker> but arguably... not really much use usually
09:49:38 <Terkhen> you could do that with unload and take cargo too
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09:49:46 <Terkhen> which is also not very useful
09:50:43 <planetmaker> well. Unload order is also mostly useless
09:50:50 <planetmaker> It nearly could be removed.
09:51:38 <planetmaker> a normal goto unloads, if accepted. If not accepted it stays. Same with the usual unload. Then it just will take longer
09:51:39 <andythenorth> there is some purpose for it. I forget what :P
09:51:44 <planetmaker> as it unloads and loads, if not accepted
09:52:04 <planetmaker> with stockpiling there can be some cases where it makes sense... not sure
09:55:39 <fonsinchen> uh, there are some interesting effects you can get with cargodist using those orders
09:55:57 <fonsinchen> ... if you know what you're doing
09:56:29 <fonsinchen> for example you can force all cargo in a vehicle to be rerouted by giving it a "transfer and take cargo" order
10:00:45 <andythenorth> to fix my town problem, do I have to create a town grf?
10:01:05 <andythenorth> I can patch locally....but that's not a fix right?
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10:07:49 <andythenorth> HIHI is houses innit
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11:08:11 <andythenorth> frosch123: the map gen is placing certain town buildings that shouldn't be allowed (according to build date in town_land.h)
11:08:24 <andythenorth> this has certain side effects when the town starts to grow
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11:10:19 <planetmaker> bug report, andythenorth ?
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11:10:35 <andythenorth> I'm not sure if it's a bug or not
11:10:51 <andythenorth> it could be my brain that has the bug :P
11:10:56 <planetmaker> it will be closed as invalid, if not ;-)
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11:21:02 <frosch123> looks like the town radii are off, doesn't it?
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11:23:13 <frosch123> my map, generated at 1870, looks fine
11:23:34 <frosch123> no idea what you are doing
11:24:57 <andythenorth> let me try again
11:26:02 <frosch123> did you add some house grf?
11:27:04 <andythenorth> I have three types of shops and offices in 1870
11:27:08 <andythenorth> only STR_TOWN_BUILDING_NAME_SHOPS_AND_OFFICES_2 should be available
11:27:18 <andythenorth> doesn't look like just recolor, looks like different sprites
11:27:25 <frosch123> the appearance date of the first generation of houses is extended to year 0 to actually make some houses available. if newgrfs add some early houses, the frist generation may only offer a few houses
11:28:14 <andythenorth> seems like map gen is building some shops/offices that shouldn't be available
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11:28:24 <andythenorth> then when the town grows, it replaces those with houses
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12:40:21 <voxyn> Hello i have a question can i ask it here?
12:41:14 <robotboy> the topic says Don't ask to ask
12:41:28 <voxyn> i want to install cargodest on my windows installation
12:41:35 <voxyn> so i downloaded the .zip file
12:41:52 <planetmaker> you unzip it and start the exe
12:42:09 <planetmaker> If it fails, install your newgrf and base data into your global data dir
12:42:21 <voxyn> extracted it but when i run openttd.exe it says: cannot open files "sample.cat"
12:42:27 <planetmaker> everything else is IMHO not sensible except in very few cases
12:42:49 <planetmaker> voxyn: then install your data files into the global OpenTTD data dir. See the readme where that is
12:44:16 <planetmaker> also... it sounds like an aweful old version; I thought OpneTTD doesn't complain about sample.cat anymore.
12:44:51 <voxyn> i downloaded it from the openttd site so i figured it had to be the good version
12:44:52 <planetmaker> and I mean the base graphics and sound
12:45:03 <planetmaker> you didn't download cargodist from the OpenTTD site
12:45:19 <planetmaker> and no OpenTTD comes with base graphics and sound. Except you download an installer
12:45:53 <Ammler> that is the celstart patch
12:45:59 <XeryusTC> Cargodest on the ottd site is ancient iirc
12:46:05 <planetmaker> I guess that link needs removal
12:46:13 <voxyn> so cargodest doenst work?
12:46:23 <planetmaker> it does. But is over 2 years old
12:46:27 <planetmaker> and not maintained
12:46:31 <Ammler> planetmaker: someone could also simply read, it is mentioned there, that you should use cargodist
12:46:32 <glx> Latest release in cargodest is h3b244a8f, released on 2008-12-19 21:45 UTC.
12:46:32 <voxyn> why do i hear people about it quite often when it hasen't been updated for over 2 years?
12:46:47 <voxyn> Ah there is a difference between cargodEst and cargodIst!
12:46:48 <planetmaker> you confuse it with cargodIst
12:46:56 <XeryusTC> It does work, it's just a couple of thousand revisions old :p
12:47:11 <voxyn> so where can i find cargodIst?
12:47:35 <planetmaker> actually at bundles.openttdcoop.org
12:48:08 <XeryusTC> You guys talk too fast for my phone typing skills :s
12:48:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r20843 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#2534] (r20506): Make sure (gradual) loading is properly terminated for consists with multiple cargo types. Don't stop loading if the timetabled wait is not over yet. (Steve-N)
12:51:52 <planetmaker> voxyn: and you should seriously consider to move your data files to your global OpenTTD data dir
12:52:06 <planetmaker> something like Own Files\OpenTTD\data
12:52:11 <planetmaker> or however windoze calls that
12:52:25 <planetmaker> then it's available for every install and you don't have to bother with it at all anymore
12:54:26 <Ammler> he might have it there, but that old version doesn't find opensfx
12:57:39 <voxyn> i had some problems first but i just copy pasted the cargodist files in my openttd installtion and it worked
12:58:23 <SpComb> moving your TTD data files to the global data dir is worth it
12:58:33 <SpComb> then you just unzip any bundle and play right away
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13:02:01 <Ammler> yes, overwriting a existing installation is bad choice...
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13:03:04 <planetmaker> voxyn: mind that now you won't be able to load any savegame you create with this version in ANY future version of OpenTTD, cargodist or not
13:03:53 <planetmaker> and no, there's no way around that ;-)
13:03:56 <robotboy> would it be possible to get a way of moving the global content download dir?
13:04:08 <planetmaker> robotboy: compile
13:04:12 <robotboy> or atleast the NewGRF folder within it
13:04:50 <planetmaker> besides... I don't know how and whether it works on windows. On other systems I'd just create a symlink to that dir within the global OpenTTD data dir
13:04:55 <planetmaker> then you don't need to re-compile
13:05:02 <robotboy> it would be nice to be able to just have them all shoved onto my network NewGRF share that I then simlink for both TTDP and OpenTTD
13:05:03 <planetmaker> Any sub-dir of the data dir is also considered
13:05:24 <planetmaker> if symlink works for directories that's the way to go, I say
13:05:28 <planetmaker> Just symlink the dir
13:06:03 <robotboy> will that cause issues with OpenTTD finding the GRF twice?
13:08:40 <planetmaker> if it does, it's a bug ;-)
13:09:11 <planetmaker> especially it should work nicely for new grfs, if they support action14 version information
13:09:21 <planetmaker> then by default only the newest version of the newgrf will be displayed
13:09:32 <robotboy> meh I need to rethink my stuff if I want to do it that way
13:09:39 <planetmaker> newgrfs w/o any version information will all be displayed
13:10:25 <planetmaker> If ttdp was working here I'd symlink its data dir to my global data dir
13:10:32 <robotboy> well my current NewGRF folder is on WIndows Server 2003 which doesn't support Symlinks
13:10:48 <planetmaker> he. That's of course a backdraw
13:11:34 <robotboy> maybe I should just point TTDP's NewGRF folder at openTTD's global data dir or the content_download folder
13:12:19 <planetmaker> Dunno... does TTDP use also sub directories?
13:12:49 <robotboy> well you just give it the full path starting with NewGRF in newgrf.cfg
13:27:15 <Hirundo> Back side of one-way pbs signal being a safe waiting point has caused so many jams... It has created more problems than it solved, IMO
13:31:27 <robotboy> pm you too busy to take on coding another set?
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13:37:08 <robotboy> wow ive been on the forums for 5 years
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13:47:08 <V453000> :D I dont even have account there
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14:52:34 <robotboy> planetmaker, I am looking for a coder for the Thomas the Tank Engine Set. If that sounds too big just say.
14:53:37 <planetmaker> uh... that indeed sounds like a lot of work right now
14:53:56 * robotboy figured that was the most llikely answere
14:54:08 <planetmaker> are the sprites in the thread?
14:55:30 <robotboy> I need to do some final organisation work after a few years of inactivity
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14:56:12 <planetmaker> it looks like interesting comic-like graphics :-)
14:57:06 <planetmaker> well... how sophisticated does it need to become, robotboy ?
14:57:15 <planetmaker> What I would do, is teach you NML ;-)
14:57:44 <planetmaker> You can do all train - related stuff in that already. And it works quite nicely from what I tried recently
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14:59:38 <__ln__> making something and calling it Thomas the Tank Engine Set is asking for trouble from the trademark holders.
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15:01:10 <Ammler> then call it "Ingo the Tank" :-)
15:02:54 <Ammler> robotboy: mostly it's not the lack of coder which stalls a set
15:03:28 <__ln__> would such a set include a narrator's voice anyway?
15:05:35 <planetmaker> give it a try, robotboy ? :-)
15:05:51 <planetmaker> you'll need python with the python image library and nml
15:12:24 <Hirundo> add PLY (python lex-yacc parser library) to that
15:18:09 <planetmaker> robotboy: what also helps a lot a potential coder is already to arange the existing sprites in a common, easy-to-use pattern.
15:18:18 <planetmaker> Similar like the image I linked
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15:35:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is a second method which is almost as good as "close (won't fix)". it is called "assign to foobar" :p
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15:36:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: that method isn't proven :)
15:37:04 <andythenorth> foobar pops up now and then, does a whole lot of tickets, then disappears again :)
15:37:21 <andythenorth> he's like the scarlet pimpernel :)
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15:40:22 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you playing a FIRS game?
15:42:57 <andythenorth> or anyone playing a FIRS game & using fishing grounds?
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16:11:07 <Ammler> got a OOM with content download
16:12:31 <Ammler> do you copy the whole download to memory?
16:13:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth, closed.
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16:15:01 <andythenorth> I need to resolve fishing ground cargo production
16:15:55 <andythenorth> not really sure how it should work yet
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16:27:39 <planetmaker> growth ~ sqrt(FMSP) :-)
16:29:18 <planetmaker> and decay ~ sqrt(production level - production baselevel)
16:29:44 <planetmaker> and add a bit of random change
16:29:50 <planetmaker> that'd be 'realistic' :-P
16:32:08 <andythenorth> planetmaker: not sure realistic is the goal :D
16:36:55 <andythenorth> might reduce production
16:37:13 <andythenorth> currently, assuming FISH, there's no reason to use the fishing boats
16:38:09 <andythenorth> Fish cargo is a bit of a moneymaker
16:38:26 <andythenorth> and production is high enough that it's quite easy to get 1000t waiting
16:39:53 <planetmaker> I guess there was too little water on the last map I played :-)
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17:33:34 <andythenorth> has it always been the case that train list can't window be resized horizontally?
17:35:18 * Rubidium ponders being pedantic
17:37:33 <Rubidium> like you're probably talking about the train group list and not the train list; the train list resizes fine, the train group list doesn't
17:37:59 <andythenorth> pedantry / accuracy /s
17:38:44 <Rubidium> it seems to work fine in 1.0 as well, so file a bug report or find someone that fixes it immediately
17:39:32 <frosch123> must have gotton broken recently
17:40:18 <andythenorth> accidentally choosing the red-black cycle as a map colour certainly makes brickworks easy to find :o
17:40:29 <andythenorth> maybe all map colours could flash continuously :)
17:40:50 <SpComb> then the non-flashing colors would be easy to find
17:41:50 <andythenorth> don't check new map colours in pause mode :P
17:42:57 <frosch123> r20835 is the culprit
17:45:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20844 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt spanish.txt unfinished/marathi.txt):
17:45:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: catalan - 3 changes by arnau
17:45:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: marathi - 10 changes by jcravi
17:45:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 8 changes by Terkhen
17:47:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20845 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Fix (r20835): Group GUI was no longer horizontally resizeable.
17:47:27 <andythenorth> there's no magic (console) way to force industries to change their action 0 props?
17:47:47 <andythenorth> when their parent grf has been modified...
17:49:11 <andythenorth> don't want to lose my lovely savegame
17:49:36 <glx> don't change grf ingame ;)
17:49:50 <andythenorth> I'll kindly ignore that advice :)
17:51:58 <Lakie> Bit harder when you are actively developing the grf, glx?
17:52:39 <glx> then don't develop with a savegame you want to keep :)
17:53:02 * Lakie suggests glx des not suggest that to people like SAC
17:53:13 <andythenorth> ^^ probably the number of times I've reloaded grf in game
17:53:18 <andythenorth> (conservative estimate)
17:53:38 <andythenorth> developing without a savegame is somewhat...time consuming :D
17:54:05 <andythenorth> connecting whole cargo chains from scratch....
17:54:10 <Lakie> Can also be more tricky to wok out balances working from scratch each time you test things...
17:54:10 <andythenorth> not really feasible
17:54:53 <frosch123> [19:53] <andythenorth> developing without a savegame is somewhat...time consuming :D <- are you sure? if you also skip the release, then you will likely a lot less bugreports
17:55:14 <andythenorth> develop a private grf for myself?
17:55:23 <planetmaker> it's a popular endeavour
17:55:29 <planetmaker> whole forum threads are full of it
17:55:29 <Rubidium> yes, it's quite common practice
17:55:30 <frosch123> yeah, just post some screenshots
17:55:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: how might industry production multiplier be randomised slightly when industry is built? I currently have no control over that prop.
17:56:02 <andythenorth> ideally for me game would just do it, but that might not be desirable for, e.g. George, Pikka, OzTrans
17:56:03 <frosch123> use production callback with registers
17:56:17 <frosch123> then return those randomvars from there
17:56:25 <frosch123> and enable the automatic production multiplier
17:57:01 <andythenorth> yeah, one of those
17:57:14 <Ammler> can I manually trigger advertise?
17:57:23 <Amis> Is it possible for a town to disappear?
17:57:25 <Ammler> seems like ti does try every 14mins
17:57:44 <Rubidium> 19:48 <@Rubidium> restart ?
17:58:13 <Amis> I have a village here with only one house and I wonder what happens if I blow it up
17:58:18 <Rubidium> Amis: only if you open the game in the scenario editor, open the town window and accidentally press the "delete town" button
17:58:46 <Ammler> Amis: you can bulldoze the house, the town stays.
17:58:56 <Rubidium> otherwise the town will still be there and it'll try to spawn new houses
18:00:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: that would make sense for random production
18:00:50 <andythenorth> it's a bit of a change to FIRS current primary code, I probably won't tackle it yet
18:01:13 <frosch123> i did not mean randomise on every production step :p
18:02:11 <andythenorth> so normally industry production is (prop 12 * production multiplier)
18:02:28 <andythenorth> and in this case, it will be (prop 12 * production multiplier * random amount)?
18:02:37 <frosch123> yes, and if you enable the automatic multiplier handling it is (result of production callback * production multilpier)
18:03:08 <andythenorth> so read prop 12, then +/-1
18:03:15 <frosch123> so just use the industrie's random bits to return some non-fixed value in the callback
18:03:30 <frosch123> no, set prop 12 to zero
18:05:55 <frosch123> and set bit 14 of prop 1a
18:06:40 <andythenorth> I'll need to provide the equivalent of prop 12/13 somewhere? To anchor the range for the random?
18:07:21 <frosch123> i guess you can also set prop 12/13 to some basevalue and only return the random part in the production callback
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19:13:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20846 /trunk/src/ (lang/irish.txt os/windows/crashlog_win.cpp signs_gui.cpp): -Fix: some whitespace.
19:21:23 <andythenorth> "Ethanol Plant" or "Biofuel Plant" ?
19:22:13 <andythenorth> any more bids :P
19:22:19 <frosch123> "ethanol plant"? didn't you recently rejected "brewery"?
19:22:53 <andythenorth> it produces 'ethanol as food'
19:23:00 <andythenorth> but not 'ethanol as petrol' :P
19:24:27 <frosch123> hmm, detection of available liveries seems to work, now i need to fix the gui :s
19:25:13 <andythenorth> Rubidium: your suggestion would be?
19:27:07 <Rubidium> adding a "charity" industry instead
19:27:20 <Rubidium> better give the food to those who don't have food than to put it in your car
19:28:37 <frosch123> what, you can select multiple items at once in the livery window... :o
19:28:43 <Rubidium> unless you're talking about biofuel made from waste biomass or algae
19:29:13 <andythenorth> sugar (cane/beet) is allegedly quite an efficient fuel in the right climates
19:29:50 <andythenorth> wonder if it's more efficient converter of sunlight -> work than solar panels?
19:30:03 <andythenorth> (PV solar panels, not solar thermal)
19:30:38 <frosch123> Rubidium: oh you mean those biofuel plantages which are build on drained swamp, where the drained swamp ejects a lot more co2 than the produced fuel will ever safe?
19:31:22 <Rubidium> frosch123: don't know those plantages
19:31:38 <frosch123> andythenorth: certainly not, photosynthesis is quite inefficent
19:32:03 <frosch123> iirc < 1%, while panels have around 20% (or so)
19:32:41 <Rubidium> apparantly algae can produce 30 times more energy per acre than land crops (soy beans)
19:32:49 <Rubidium> so there's a lot of difference there as well
19:34:03 <Rubidium> grr... firefox really needs customisable key bindings (or the ability to disable the CTRL-Q "quit" keybinding)
19:34:05 <frosch123> "Actual plants' photosynthetic (..) can vary from 0.1% to 8%.[27] By comparison, solar panels convert light into electric energy at an efficiency of approximately 6-20% for mass-produced panels (...)"
19:34:10 <andythenorth> so....no biofuel plant in FIRS? :P
19:35:14 <frosch123> maybe a "waste incinerator" instead?
19:35:38 <frosch123> though it produced rather power than fuel
19:35:58 <andythenorth> did someone invent electricity whilst I wasn't looking? :P
19:36:24 <frosch123> iirc you rejected both waste and powerplants :p
19:36:25 * andythenorth looks in commit logs for TownControl commits
19:36:51 <andythenorth> I know how to do electricity in a clean way
19:36:57 <andythenorth> but it depends on TownControl :)
19:40:15 <frosch123> then finish the specs :)
19:40:40 <frosch123> someone complained that 16bit are not enough for population
19:42:59 <Ammler> well, or you could use a 100 factor
19:43:16 <andythenorth> or a x16 factor?
19:43:22 <andythenorth> like production multiplier
19:43:26 <Ammler> andythenorth: 128 then
19:44:09 <frosch123> well, you should also consider that the population of the town itself can also only be accessed as 16bit :p
19:44:28 <Ammler> frosch123: and how does it display 1million?
19:44:34 <Rubidium> @calc 2048*2048+2048*2048
19:44:50 <frosch123> Ammler: ottd internal != newgrf exposed
19:45:08 <frosch123> but imo neither distances > 65535 nor population > 65535 should matter for a grf
19:45:14 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 11.313708499
19:45:26 <Ammler> frosch123: rather >65000 then < 100
19:46:21 <Ammler> so I think, you can easy extend it at least 6500000
19:46:26 <andythenorth> cross checking all those specs looks fun :)
19:46:36 <andythenorth> I'd better finish FIRS 0.5 and ship it first though
19:46:42 <andythenorth> so not this weekend
19:47:02 <Rubidium> Ammler: then anything less than 10 away will show up as 0, which is probably worse than anything further away than 256 tiles will show up as 256 tiles away
19:47:22 <Rubidium> even with a factor 100 you won't be covering the whole map
19:47:31 <andythenorth> "When will it be done"?
19:48:14 * Rubidium dares to say: "before the next dbset release"
19:48:42 <Ammler> Rubidium: does it count the neighbour hood?
19:48:54 <Ammler> I thought, just using the town count
19:51:33 * Rubidium has no idea what the distance is used for, though I'd say that close it usually more important than far away
19:53:12 <Rubidium> even then, squared euclidian distances are usually capped at 65535 when passed to NewGRF
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20:01:42 <frosch123> "OCS will not be updated to the latest version until the New Map Array is complete." <- :p
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20:05:44 <Rubidium> frosch123: fun thing is that it started after the "new map array" branch was already dead
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20:16:01 <frosch123> though the other link is not that bad either for a list :p
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20:54:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: thanks
20:54:47 <frosch123> (i hope not for the todo list)
20:55:01 <andythenorth> frosch123: so you envisage separate grf to control towns?
20:55:34 <frosch123> i do not want grfs to require all three of towncontrol, houses and industries
20:56:18 <frosch123> of course the canadian set would do nevertheless if it would care about ottd
20:56:33 <andythenorth> I wouldn't want to write town control code in FIRS if I could avoid it
20:56:49 <andythenorth> however cargos seem to be tied to industry set(s)
20:56:50 <frosch123> i have no problem with firs adding towncontrol as well
20:57:04 <andythenorth> I would rather leave it open to other people
20:57:06 <frosch123> but adding hihi into firs starts to get bothersome :p
20:57:15 <andythenorth> hihi was a joke :)
20:57:39 <andythenorth> I am sad about my towns losing population & goods acceptance in my current game
20:58:18 <andythenorth> hihi would be my fix by modifying default houses, but I'm not actually going to do it ;)
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21:58:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20847 /trunk/src/ (vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h): -Codechange: Split most of GetEngineLivery() into a separate GetEngineLiveryScheme() function.
21:59:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20848 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h): -Add: _loaded_newgrf_features.used_liveries to keep track which liveries are used by some vehicle resp. which are not used at all.
22:01:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20849 /trunk/src/ (company_gui.cpp settings.cpp table/settings.h): -Change: Only display liveries in the liverywindow if they are used by some vehicle somewhen (not considering date or such).
22:02:00 <frosch123> no tram livery selection if there are no trams, no monorail if there is no monorail, no sailing ships if there are none
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22:03:27 <planetmaker> I read it like "don't show train liveries if trains don't use them (yet)" - which would make it difficult to select them :-P
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22:07:25 <frosch123> you did not miss anything :p
22:07:42 <planetmaker> still annoying if the cmd+w is executed in the wrong window ;-)
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