IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-09-26
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08:57:46 <andythenorth_> Alberth: is it possible to update the industry opening patch to r20849?
08:57:54 <andythenorth_> I want to try it with a save game I'm playing
08:58:35 <Alberth> I have a new one instead, is that OK too ?
08:59:04 <Alberth> not save game compatible with any previous version though
09:00:48 <Alberth> that should be fixable, but it does not seem worth the trouble imo
09:01:57 <Alberth> oh, to be clear, "any previous version" means any patched version, it should load trunk fine
09:03:25 <andythenorth_> Alberth: I'll try it :)
09:03:43 <andythenorth_> my savegame is currently trunk r20837, but seems to load in r20849 ok
09:04:17 <Alberth> trunk is very compatible with itself :)
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09:05:57 <planetmaker> Though one save option would be nice, but mostly not worth the trouble: "legacy save. Save as version 1.0 savegame" or alike
09:06:39 <planetmaker> that currently would make it A LOT easier to create scenarios for those who don't have nightlies. But current nightlies are MUCH better suitable for that ;-)
09:08:10 <Alberth> andythenorth_: currently, I have reduced debug output (just a monthly dump of current industry counts + opening/closing) is that enough?
09:10:57 <Rubidium> savegame deconversion will be pretty difficult as it needs to downgrade the data, then save it and then upgrade it again
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09:14:29 <Noldo> why isn't make copy, downgrade, save, throw away, possible?
09:15:10 <Rubidium> requires rewriting a huge amount of code
09:21:09 <planetmaker> I know... it might require e.g. to remove all objects or alike
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09:21:38 <planetmaker> possibly some even more nasty consequences with newgrfs
09:22:08 <Alberth> planetmaker: better backport the changes that make the editor easier to use to 1.0 :)
09:23:00 <planetmaker> hm? you mean backport the newgrf gui, the parameter settings?
09:23:05 <planetmaker> that's half of 1.1 :-P
09:23:33 <planetmaker> oh and the water% :-)
09:25:21 <Rubidium> yeah, we'll backport that to 1.1.0-beta1 :)
09:26:29 <Alberth> planetmaker: just be glad you can use 1.0 instead of, say, 0.6 :p
09:27:25 <planetmaker> hehe @ Rubidium :-)
09:27:31 <Rubidium> but 0.3.5 is awesome
09:27:32 <planetmaker> That's a task I'll leave to you ;-)
09:28:14 <Alberth> unfortunately, I missed all of 0.3.x and 0.4.x :)
09:29:05 <planetmaker> at some point I must have played one of the newer 0.4.x
09:29:13 <planetmaker> but I don't quite recall it playing much ;-)
09:29:23 <planetmaker> I really only started with the late 0.5.x
09:31:01 <planetmaker> besides, 0.6 was already a huge step forward wrt 0.5.x :-)
09:31:44 <Rubidium> and the steps seem to be becoming smaller :(
09:33:36 <fonsinchen> just include cargodist, that'll be a big step again.
09:33:47 <planetmaker> Rubidium: says who?
09:34:25 <planetmaker> besides that you make the steps smaller, going down to a new release every 2nd month ;-)
09:34:47 <planetmaker> Definitely not the worst approach :-)
09:35:12 <Rubidium> oh, the Chrome release cycle?
09:35:26 <planetmaker> dunno that cycle. How is it?
09:35:45 <Rubidium> "major" release every 6 weeks
09:36:02 <planetmaker> ah. Maybe similar to mercurial. They're quite fast with that, too
09:36:06 <Rubidium> so release 5.0.0, and six weeks later release 6.0.0
09:36:25 <planetmaker> though mercurial has the same 'major' and 'minor' definition as OpenTTD
09:37:02 <planetmaker> well. with 0.1 steps being the major steps ;-)
09:37:11 <planetmaker> even though internally it's called differently in OpenTTD...
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09:41:18 <Rubidium> yeah, maybe it's even called slightly incorrect
09:43:40 <planetmaker> well... not by the numbers. But by the actual use where x.y is combined the real major version.
09:44:14 <planetmaker> In any case it looks better than already going for OpenTTD 11.0
09:44:47 <Rubidium> true, 11.0.0 is for April 2110
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09:47:44 <andythenorth_> two kernel panics in one hour?
09:47:59 <planetmaker> Not if the current scheme is followed that versions x.[89].z are skipped ;-)
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10:24:38 * andythenorth_ has computer troubles :(
10:24:46 <andythenorth_> and a 10 hour backup to complete :|
10:25:16 <Rubidium> ah well, luckily it's not your personal computer
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10:26:17 <andythenorth_> I am pretty personally attached to it :(
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10:29:44 * Alberth gives andythenorth_ an axe for defense
10:31:13 * andythenorth_ is over-writing a company backup disk with contents of his computer :P
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10:31:45 <andythenorth_> all these word documents from 2007, clearly not useful :)
10:33:20 <Alberth> just make sure your contract survives :)
10:36:55 * andythenorth_ doesn't have a contract
10:38:09 <Alberth> in that case, I agree :)
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10:57:13 <andythenorth_> incremental backup of small files is slow :o
10:57:24 <andythenorth_> much comparing to do I guess
10:57:27 <SpComb> slower than just copying everything?
10:57:53 <andythenorth_> I should just copy everything
10:58:45 <andythenorth_> anyone want to take bets on when my backup finishes?
10:58:52 <andythenorth_> we can settle them via paypal :)
10:59:07 <andythenorth_> or bet patches / newgrf features :P
11:00:03 <Rubidium> it's done when it's done
11:02:36 <andythenorth_> unless my disk fails first :D
11:02:41 <andythenorth_> then it's not done
11:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure it's before DNF :p
11:03:51 * andythenorth_ wonders if it will be done in twice the time it takes to be half-done
11:04:21 * andythenorth_ should stop watching a progress bar and go entertain the baby or something :P
11:04:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20850 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp industrytype.h): -Codechange: Add IndustrySpec::UsesSmoothEconomy() to deduplicate code.
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11:11:53 <andythenorth_> FIRS is now backed up :)
11:12:06 <andythenorth_> so the important stuff on my HD is safe :P
11:14:16 <andythenorth_> if I had an iPad, I wouldn't need to back up - as it's "Magic"
11:14:22 <andythenorth_> and magic doesn't need backing up
11:15:18 <frosch> is there anything about firs which is not in the repository?
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11:28:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20851 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix: Smallmap legend buttons must all be equal in size, even if their contents is not.
12:01:05 <andythenorth_> frosch: some working files, and some stuff that would infringe GPL - like source images and stuff
12:01:15 <andythenorth_> nothing needed to build the grf
12:01:27 <frosch> hmm, how to visualise production levels of industries? while keeping them editable?
12:01:52 <frosch> displaying 1/16 x or 1x or 16x looks fine, but is not editable
12:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> today is "everybody has a weird colour" day?
12:02:08 <frosch> displaying 1/16 .. 128/16 is editable, but looks weird
12:02:49 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch: like an edit box, where you enter "15/32" and it parses that?
12:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it's done for virtual time that way...
12:03:03 <frosch> displaying 12.5% .. 100% ... 800% looks also fine, but is not very editable either
12:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> or what do you mean with "editable"?
12:03:33 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: setting production of industries in scenario editor
12:03:47 <frosch> currently it tries to set the production rate, which is broken
12:03:55 <frosch> so it has to set the production multiplier instead
12:04:04 <frosch> which is 16 at default production
12:04:12 <frosch> so you can set it to values from 1 to 128 or so
12:04:52 <frosch> so either you set values 1/16 .. 128/16, or a percentage in 6% steps, or ...
12:05:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and "set" by a <|> button or editbox?
12:05:30 <frosch> but what should be entered in the editbox?
12:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> if you do power of two by each step, <|> is easy
12:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, the virtual time patch parses the editbox in a HH:MM:SS format
12:06:04 <frosch> i guess i go for the percentage, rounding to 6% steps does not sound that wrong
12:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you could do the same for an x/y, x.y or x.y% format
12:06:59 <frosch> and how intuitive is entering 4/16 ?
12:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause> you can allow arbitrary input, and round accordingly
12:07:25 <frosch> then someone wants to enter 1/6 or so
12:07:49 <frosch> percentage is a lot easier :)
12:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> need an algorithm for (exact) rounding of rational numbers
12:08:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean: they are syntactically different, so you can allow all of them in one edit box
12:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and you have a rudimentary lexer/parser
12:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i could have a go at the parser, if you provide the rest of the GUI stuff ;)
12:10:22 <Eddi|zuHause> just give me a stub that takes a string, and i return a number between 1 and 128
12:11:00 <frosch> i->production_rate[line] = ClampU(atoi(str) / 8, 0, 255); <- take that line of industry_gui.cpp
12:11:33 <frosch> then assign prod_level instead of production_rate
12:11:56 <frosch> values between 1 and 128, and 16 being normal level
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12:12:20 <frosch> hmm, actually only 4/16 to 8
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12:47:27 * andythenorth_ wonders which mp3s it is worth backing up :P
12:47:35 <andythenorth_> pet shop boys obviously
12:47:40 <andythenorth_> depeche mode definitely
12:47:44 <andythenorth_> take that, not so sure
12:54:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you really have time to decide that for each one individually?
12:59:01 * andythenorth_ wonders if it's safe to play ottd while backing up
13:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd does not continuously write files
13:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> only sporadic autosaves
13:01:21 <andythenorth_> ottd was allegedly the active process when the last kernel panic happened
13:01:34 <andythenorth_> however I suspect an OS X level issue (or hardware fault)
13:02:21 <Ammler> there are no suspicious sounds?
13:03:05 * andythenorth_ has forgotten his root password :(
13:04:42 <Ammler> rescue mode -> chroot <yourdisk> -> passwd
13:05:12 <Rubidium> just install Windows, there you don't need a root password
13:05:55 <glx> <Ammler> rescue mode -> chroot <yourdisk> -> passwd <-- wow security is nice on OSX
13:06:43 <Ammler> glx: how do you recover the admin pw on windows?
13:07:08 <Rubidium> Ammler: like the solution for all Windows problems... reinstall from scratch :)
13:07:14 <Ammler> well, not recover, just write new
13:07:51 <glx> I can remember if I have an admin pw
13:08:34 <Ammler> there are other ways to make a new root pw
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13:50:58 <andythenorth_> Alberth: sorry, I lost the link to the industry patch
13:51:09 <andythenorth_> would you mind reposting...
13:54:25 <Alberth> I might also need that later, I am making a mess in my patch queue :)
13:57:00 <frosch> hehe, i also fetched a patch back from there once :p
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14:29:47 <andythenorth_> how do I hg up to r20842 (svn rev)?
14:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause> check how findversion.sh gets the svn rev?
14:32:28 <Ammler> andythenorth_: maybe my ottdbash is helpful for you :-)
14:32:28 <glx> find the hg rev with this svn rev in its log
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14:37:32 <andythenorth_> Alberth: does the patch compile for you against 20842?
14:39:04 <Alberth> my current version does, which only has a few different (mostly line) numbers compared to yours.
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14:40:44 <Alberth> hmm, I spoke too soon :(
14:42:55 <Alberth> andythenorth_: src/industry_cmd.cpp:2142 started with a "+" due to copy/paste from a patch file
15:04:28 <andythenorth_> Alberth: succeeded
15:07:10 <Alberth> andythenorth_: rather than reserving space for not-yet-available industries, this patch will continue to create new industries for you to connect
15:09:20 * Alberth ponders about getting more than one tester
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16:27:24 <andythenorth_> UKRS2 won't refit to FIRS building materials
16:27:34 * andythenorth_ suspects some mistake
16:28:38 <Rubidium> hmm... not even Doris Day is on TV :(
16:29:02 * Rubidium now wonders how many have a clue what I'm refering to
16:29:12 * Rubidium fears that might be close to zero though
16:31:58 <andythenorth_> are cargo classes AND or OR
16:32:03 <andythenorth_> e.g. 'covered piece'
16:32:13 <andythenorth_> does that get me covered or piece, or only vehicles that support both?
16:32:35 <Rubidium> aren't there two masks?
16:32:46 <Rubidium> one and and one or mask or something?
16:33:12 <andythenorth_> I don't really understand them
16:33:25 <andythenorth_> cargo classes work brilliantly, but are brain ache to understand :P
16:33:41 <andythenorth_> I just try stuff until something works usually
16:34:12 <Rubidium> ah well, you'll understand it better than I do
16:35:41 <Yexo> second one, not the one with the properties
16:35:47 <Yexo> does that make it any more clear how it works?
16:37:27 <andythenorth_> doesn't actually solve my problem :)
16:37:41 <andythenorth_> I'm still just trying stuff until it works, but now I understand
16:38:32 <Yexo> <andythenorth_> UKRS2 won't refit to FIRS building materials <- Shouldn't that be fixed in UKRS2 instead of FIRS?
16:38:57 <andythenorth_> it was a failure of class definitions by me
16:39:14 <andythenorth_> and also, I know pikka probably won't fix it, he'll just tell me to change the class :)
16:40:32 <andythenorth_> looks like building materials get to be 'express'
16:40:37 <andythenorth_> which is interesting :P
16:41:26 <andythenorth_> it's the only way to get the covered hopper in NARS 2 to support it
16:41:38 <Yexo> what about the covered class?
16:41:52 <andythenorth_> looks like pikka isn't supporting the covered class :)
16:41:53 <andythenorth_> it means that bricks and cement travel by mail vans
16:42:22 <andythenorth_> also by plane :o
16:42:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so it should really be fixed in UKRS2?
16:42:37 <Yexo> ^^ getting pikka to fix it would still be better
16:42:40 <andythenorth_> the issue is now with NARS 2
16:42:47 <andythenorth_> he'll just tell me it's my fix
16:42:53 <andythenorth_> I reckon, based on previous experience
16:43:06 <Yexo> so tell him it's not and that he should support the covered class?
16:46:39 <andythenorth_> which is better for building materials (cement/bricks/glass etc):
16:46:45 <andythenorth_> (1) travels in coal hoppers or (2) NARS 2 covered hoppers don't refit to this cargo
16:49:16 <andythenorth_> Alberth: is it useful if I run logs on the industry patch? I'm using an existing savegame, not from scratch?
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16:53:33 <andythenorth_> I'll post in the NARS 2 thread
16:58:37 <Alberth> andythenorth_: a savegame from trunk should simply start at the current situation
17:03:47 <Amis> I have a little question: conversion of rail is more expensive than manually removing the rail and placing the new one, why?
17:04:33 <Alberth> I would expect not, but try it with one tile
17:05:08 <Alberth> I tend to have so much money that I don't even bother about it :)
17:05:33 <Amis> I tried, I ended up with the following: (1) remove 1 tile of rail on desert: +208, add 1 tile of electric rail on desert: -3466
17:05:51 <Amis> (2) Convert 1 tile of rail to electric rail on desert is 3966
17:08:01 <Amis> I wonder how it computes that value and if a grf can mess it up
17:09:00 <andythenorth_> Alberth: remind me how to generate the logs (sorry)
17:09:24 <Alberth> Amis the latter is no doubt true, you can do almost anything with newgrfs
17:09:53 <Alberth> andythenorth_: ./openttd -d industry=2 for the new version, but higher numbers are fine too :)
17:10:03 <Amis> I have only I know of that modifies rail cost and that is 2cc making electric rail cost x10 more
17:12:49 <Alberth> standard sub-tropic has no electric trains at all afaik
17:14:38 <dihedral> Alberth, nice patch :-)
17:15:25 <Alberth> now if only a few people would try it in a game :)
17:15:42 <dihedral> was that a 'please' or just a wish? :-D
17:16:10 <dihedral> i'd assume openttdcoop might host a game :-0
17:17:24 <Alberth> it is at least a wish.
17:18:19 <Alberth> Amis: standard temperate does 224-108=116 for remove/build, and 92 for upgrade
17:20:40 <welshdragon> when I'm trying to find stuff on BANANAS with is2.1.1 it's not getting all the grf's :(
17:21:54 <Alberth> Amis: there are 3 functions: CmdBuildRailroadTrack, CmdRemoveRailroadTrack, and CmdConvertRail
17:23:00 <Amis> I hope you don't want me to run through a bunch of ++ codes :)
17:23:14 <Ammler> welshdragon: just use stable openttd to download bananas
17:23:19 <Amis> I'm just curious why conversion is more expensive then manually "upgrading"
17:23:38 <Amis> I just tested it on a clean OpenTTD and I still ended up with this
17:23:51 * andythenorth_ googles for how to dump log output to a file
17:25:19 <welshdragon> Ammler, er, i'm on my Mac.... OpenTTD doesn't have a 'stable' version :P
17:25:35 <Ammler> you mean there is no stable mac :-P
17:25:47 <andythenorth_> no he means there is no stable mac maintainer :P
17:26:21 <andythenorth_> Ammler: is it tee that dumps to a file?
17:26:47 <Ammler> we use tee to dump to a file and stdout
17:27:13 <Ammler> if you like to pipe to a file only, you should use 1> and 2> for errors
17:28:27 <Alberth> Amis: rail.h, convert rail: Money cost = ((RailBuildCost(to) - RailBuildCost(from)) * 5) >> 2;
17:28:39 <Alberth> so it is 5/4 more expensive
17:28:51 <Amis> I see, so it's on purpose
17:29:25 <andythenorth_> ammler if I use 1> 2>&1 I get 'unexpected token'
17:29:39 <andythenorth_> ./openttd -d industry=2 1> 2>&1 /Users/andy/Documents/OpenTTD/industry_openings.txt
17:30:46 <Ammler> ./openttd -d industry=2 2>/Users/andy/Documents/OpenTTD/industry_openings.txt
17:30:56 <Ammler> you need the debug output only, don't you?
17:31:13 <Alberth> Amis: no, the comment says: (the price of workers to get to place is that 1/4)
17:31:20 <Alberth> and the reverse is cheaper
17:31:46 <andythenorth_> Ammler: yes, debug only
17:31:49 <Ammler> else it would be: ./openttd -d industry=2 1>/Users/andy/Documents/OpenTTD/industry_openings.txt 2>&1
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17:34:25 <andythenorth_> what if I just dump all output to a file?
17:34:40 <Alberth> ./myprogram >& outfile
17:34:57 <andythenorth_> that'll do right?
17:35:00 <Ammler> Alberth: difference to 1> 2>&?
17:35:03 <fonsinchen> RailConvertCost looks like someone was drunk when writing it.
17:36:11 <Alberth> Ammler: it is shorter, but otherwise perhaps none
17:36:13 <Ammler> hmm, wikipedia is down :-/
17:36:42 <Ammler> else it might be worth to visit stdout :-)
17:38:26 <Alberth> bash(1) weet het ook wel :)
17:39:14 * Ammler wonders if there is something like tee but for both "channels"
17:40:01 <Alberth> een log, een bot laten inloggen
17:45:39 <Alberth> hmm, I should not chat in 2 different languages at the same time :p
17:46:48 <Ammler> oh, that was a languages? Looks like a cat is dancing on the keyboard
17:47:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20852 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt hebrew.txt unfinished/marathi.txt):
17:47:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:47:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 38 changes by marek995
17:47:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hebrew - 8 changes by Metheny
17:47:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: marathi - 6 changes by amitst
17:47:58 * andythenorth_ ponders steam cargo trams
17:48:16 <Alberth> translation: "bash(1) also knows", "a log, have a bot log in"
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17:52:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20853 /trunk/src/lang/czech.txt: -Fix: (again) WT3 not properly validating plurals in strings...
17:53:39 <andythenorth_> Alberth: can coop test the industry patch :)
17:57:59 <dihedral> andythenorth_, ask coop?
17:58:23 <andythenorth_> "coop, can you test the industry patch?"
17:58:28 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: Ammler ^
17:58:43 <Rubidium> that needs binaries :)
17:58:59 <dihedral> Rubidium, did you not make some?
17:59:20 * Rubidium wonders how the FS3637 test is going
17:59:42 <dihedral> people played, thought it was nice, no more people playing
17:59:59 <dihedral> no interest from those mentioned in the task
18:00:48 * dihedral wonders why people comment on stuff they want to work differently, and do not invest a single bit of interest once a patch exists
18:01:46 <Rubidium> responsibility avoiding behaviour
18:01:58 <Rubidium> just say it's bad, but never say something is better or worse
18:01:59 <dihedral> ah i thought of Really Annoying Bunch :-P
18:04:22 <Rubidium> then roughly a year later say you don't like it
18:05:35 <dihedral> might add a comment to that bug post
18:05:46 <Ammler> peter1138: would just just commit those patches to trunk :-P
18:06:35 <dihedral> you would for sure :-P
18:08:43 <dihedral> personally i would favor something where more companies could compete ^^
18:09:36 <Rubidium> dihedral: that's something totally different; this is a prerequisite though
18:09:54 <Rubidium> if you want such a thing, copy it from that patch on the forum
18:10:17 <dihedral> i know it's a different thing ;-)
18:10:25 <dihedral> and it makes it way more complex
18:10:36 <Ammler> dihedral: try to find a server where you can compete on a industry without the other making angry...
18:11:07 <Ammler> peopele like "farm" industries alone
18:11:38 <dihedral> then start such a server, people are out there who do like a bit of competing
18:12:14 <Rubidium> Ammler: there's a thread about 2 competing at an industry is too little, so there must be some people playing in such a style
18:12:16 <dihedral> "making angry" -> "getting angry"
18:12:53 <Ammler> hmm, maybe on the goal servers...
18:14:23 <dihedral> there are a bunch of servers that are not goal servers
18:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i heard "goal servers" tend to forbid building in the same area
18:15:19 <Rubidium> depends on the server
18:15:34 <dihedral> Ammler, start on: coopeting
18:16:17 <Ammler> even there, people asked to split the map and head-2-head was born
18:16:34 <Ammler> which is quite boring, imo.
18:16:37 <dihedral> because you used the same audience
18:19:22 <dihedral> general openttdcoop?
18:19:59 <dihedral> the audience you already attract
18:26:40 <andythenorth_> new industries being built
18:30:40 <dihedral> that's how it worked :-P
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21:09:00 <andythenorth_> playing FIRS is now more fun than coding FIRS :D
21:09:37 * andythenorth_ will now stop moaning for a bit about FIRS progress :o
21:09:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that's becoming a problem, i fear ;)
21:10:33 <andythenorth_> ethanol plant, yes/no?
21:10:44 <andythenorth_> grain / sugar -> petrol, chemicals
21:10:47 <andythenorth_> available 1990s
21:10:55 <andythenorth_> in FIRS or out?
21:13:12 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: ? ^^
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22:11:34 <Banjohero> Hey, been looking to playing with the FIRS sett, just wondering if theres any grf sets out there with sprites for the industries that doesnt have on in the FIRS grf? (as I couldnt find any.)
22:13:52 <Terkhen> those industries are being tested right now, they will get a sprite when/if they are definitely included
22:15:09 <Banjohero> ah alright, thank you.
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