IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-09-23
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09:33:51 * dihedral hands Rubidium an 'n' :-P
09:34:05 <dihedral> __ln__, English please!
09:35:14 <Rubidium> dihedral: why would I need an 'n'?
09:35:47 <dihedral> to make your moi a moin
09:35:56 <dihedral> it simply looks naked without
09:39:44 <Rubidium> why would I write German when I can write Frisian, Gronings, Swedish and Finnish with less effort?
09:54:55 <tokai> Isn't "moi" a French word? :)
10:10:29 <SpComb> pft, did escher do isometric art?
10:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> escher did lots of art...
10:12:18 <dihedral> and had not real z factor in the things he drew :-P
10:12:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's cool how they put that in inception ;)
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10:15:48 <Eddi|zuHause> why does "git bisect skip" not go binary, but the next revision?
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12:27:39 <Wolf01> lolz, found my lost cd of outpost 2
12:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel with you :p
13:19:35 <glx> looks like stolen trees, but I'm not sure
13:20:17 <Terkhen> I'm not sure either, they seem a bit different
13:20:23 <avdg> kinda old release, only 13681
13:21:01 <glx> avdg: that's not the important point in the screenshot :)
13:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> they might be japanese trees?
13:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> at least the terrain might be the japanese set
13:22:21 <Terkhen> I've never tried them
13:32:35 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: shaka when the walls fell
13:33:47 <Eddi|zuHause> "dragon with intercourse to goat-time" <-- i'm not even trying to imagine...
13:34:43 <SmatZ> "Please apologize for your stupidity." :)
13:47:14 <Wolf01> Please send your question in Japanese. As amusing as this is, it cannot be semantically decrypted
13:49:12 <davis> stolen trees , 99% sure about that
13:49:47 <X-2> Thats a nice train station.
13:51:04 <X-2> Confuses me slightly though :p
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14:01:05 <odayfans> i've googled for a few hours and nothing helpful was found.
14:01:16 <SmatZ> odayfans: hello, does any other SDL application work?
14:01:17 <SpComb> how bizarre, they've started selling Mezzo Mix in Finland
14:02:16 <odayfans> SmatZ: i don't know,perhaps they worked,how can i test sdl?
14:03:55 <SmatZ> odayfans: the only application that uses SDL I can think of is DOSBox
14:04:10 <SmatZ> you can try installing and running it
14:04:26 <SmatZ> but anyway, the problem is most likely not in OpenTTD
14:04:34 <SmatZ> but something is wrong in your system :/
14:06:15 <odayfans> SmatZ: yes,i guess it was X's problem or sdl,i updated my X from ppa:xorg-edgers,im using ubuntu.
14:14:22 <odayfans> SmatZ: hi,i checked dosbox and it doesn't work either.thanks for your help.
14:15:10 <Rubidium> smells like an X-ABI mismatch
14:15:23 <Rubidium> i.e. SDL compiled for the wrong version of X
14:16:57 <odayfans> Rubidium: very helpful,thx!
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16:26:03 <qwd> Hi, I'm having trouble getting music on openttd on Debian Squeeze AMD64. I've moved the .gm files to the correct folder, installed timidity and selected the music in the game settings, but still not music, only sound effects. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
16:27:29 <Rubidium> do they play when you start them manually with timidity?
16:27:49 <Rubidium> i.e. timidity <filename> in the console
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16:29:43 <Rubidium> in OpenTTD, in the game options window: is the original music set selected?
16:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and in the jukebox, is the music started and the volume not 0?
16:30:44 <Rubidium> in OpenTTD, in the game in the jukebox (main toolbar music notes), is the song playing, i.e. does pressing the play button have any effect?
16:31:54 * Rubidium is off figuring out what to eat for dinner
16:31:58 <qwd> Rubidium: Yes, original music is selected. I don't understand where the jukebox is though.
16:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> qwd: next to the newspaper icon in the toolbar
16:32:52 <Eddi|zuHause> qwd: must have started/loaded a game first
16:33:42 <qwd> Eddi|zuHause: Ah there it works. I thought the music would start right away when I open the game
16:34:04 <qwd> Rubidium: Eddi|zuHause Thanks for your help!
16:34:13 <Eddi|zuHause> qwd: yes, it should do that, but not if it was manually stopped before...
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17:46:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20839 /trunk/src/lang/ (spanish.txt swedish.txt ukrainian.txt):
17:46:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 7 changes by Terkhen
17:46:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: swedish - 3 changes by Zuu
17:46:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 46 changes by Fixer
17:47:53 <planetmaker> how many entries may a cargo translation table have?
17:48:44 <Belugas> i know i'll say a blunder...
17:48:45 <planetmaker> or asked differently: what can't I do with entries at indices > 32
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17:51:42 <Hirundo> entries > 32 don't fit in the refit mask, thus you can't set the refitting for them explicitly
17:52:52 <Hirundo> Unless you want to use canset-esque tricks, that is
17:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> >32 can only be refitted through cargo classes
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18:12:15 <planetmaker> ok, but it's no problem to reference the other cargo labels in varaction2?
18:13:43 <planetmaker> good. 32 explicitly mentioned in the refit mask won't happen :-)
18:13:56 <planetmaker> Just a different sprite per cargo is a must :-)
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18:53:23 <Rubidium> qwd: it does, but when playback fails it automatically pauses. Not having timidity the first time means failure to play it and thus its paused
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19:15:36 <andythenorth> anyone played minecraft?
19:16:15 <andythenorth> looks quite oddly addictive
19:16:24 <andythenorth> some people at work are playing it
19:16:39 * andythenorth wonders if minecraft needs an industry set :P
19:16:44 <andythenorth> or big trucks :P
19:17:21 <__ln__> i tried it for a minute or two but couldn't figure out what i'm supposed to do
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19:20:28 <thvdburgt> anybody here familiar with the grfcodec source?
19:24:19 <andythenorth> __ln__: I think, from what I saw, that you mostly do...nothing
19:25:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i tried it for a bit, but i'm more of a single player, and it's kinda lacking some game progression...
19:26:00 <__ln__> the description from the official site: "Minecraft is a game about placing blocks while running from skeletons. Or something like that.."
19:26:17 <Eddi|zuHause> especially there's no reason to actually _fight_ the monsters.
19:26:32 <andythenorth> "OpenTTD is a game about placing tracks for trains. Or something like that..."
19:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it's enough if you dig a hole, put a door on it, and spend the night there...
19:26:54 <andythenorth> can we put monsters into ottd?
19:27:16 <andythenorth> "OpenTTD is a game about placing tracks for trains while running from monsters..."
19:27:21 <andythenorth> fricking trains :P
19:27:31 * andythenorth ponders a new newgrf
19:27:48 <andythenorth> replaces all train tracks with road graphics, and all trains with truck graphics
19:27:57 <Prof_Frink> OpenTTD 2: Zombie Apocalypse
19:28:02 <andythenorth> thereby solving <strike>two</strike> three problems:
19:28:15 <andythenorth> (a) rvs drive through each other
19:28:27 <andythenorth> (b) player can't assemble articulated rvs
19:28:30 <andythenorth> (c) fricking trains :P
19:28:44 <andythenorth> (d) traffic lights
19:28:58 <andythenorth> what shall I call it?
19:29:08 <andythenorth> No Fricking Trains
19:29:19 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: And losing rvs key advantage in the process.
19:29:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and towns grow on rail tracks?
19:30:38 <andythenorth> well....the old class of roads would remain
19:30:38 <andythenorth> maybe they could be 'pedestrianised'
19:30:38 <andythenorth> and no RVs allowed
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19:32:02 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: about openttd....
19:32:02 <andythenorth> "i tried it for a bit, but i'm more of a single player, and it's kinda lacking some game progression..."
19:32:42 <Rubidium> thvdburgt: depends on the question I guess
19:32:56 <andythenorth> from the minecraft author...
19:32:56 <andythenorth> "Free building mode is fine and dandy, but for many people it will ultimately become boring once you've got it figured out. It's like giving yourself infinite funds in a strategy game.. a lack of challenge kills the fun."
19:34:08 <andythenorth> "Beer is fine and dandy, but for many people it will ultimately become boring once you've got it figured out. It's like giving yourself infinite funds in a strategy game.. a lack of challenge kills the fun."
19:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yay, you figured out "out of context quoting"! :p
19:35:15 <andythenorth> did I? I'm not sure I did :o
19:36:09 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, what i think the game needs is some kind of skill progression. so you need to fight monsters to get more skilled, to craft more useful weapons, to fight stronger monsters, etc.
19:36:31 <thvdburgt> Rubidium, I'm compiling it from source using the hg repo. compilation fails on typesize.h because __BORLANDC__WIN32/GCC32/GCC64 all are not defined.
19:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> every time i tried to fight a monster, i was dead afterwards
19:36:40 <Eddi|zuHause> even having full armor
19:36:51 <andythenorth> maybe he'll GPL it :)
19:36:55 <andythenorth> then we could mod it :)
19:36:56 <Rubidium> thvdburgt: what revision?
19:37:00 <andythenorth> and put trains in :P
19:37:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there are trains in the game ;)
19:37:34 <andythenorth> mine cart - coasters
19:37:44 <andythenorth> a bit like temperate climate
19:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 iron gives you a wagon, a wagon and a furnace gives you an engine.
19:37:49 <Rubidium> thvdburgt: as there were some revision whether that's broken; the last revision should work though
19:37:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i never got that far, though
19:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause> afaik, you can also build switches with a lever...
19:38:25 <Rubidium> thvdburgt: have you modified Makefile.local?
19:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you need an awful lot of iron for tracks...
19:38:56 <thvdburgt> Rubidium, no I didn't should I?
19:38:58 <Rubidium> thvdburgt: you're using the makefile, right?
19:39:23 <Rubidium> thvdburgt: if it's not edited, please remove it
19:40:01 <thvdburgt> I only have Makefile.local.sample
19:41:24 <Rubidium> could you make clean and compile with "make V=1" and post that output to some pastebin?
19:43:00 <fonsinchen> so, smallmap-zoom-in ...
19:43:36 <uros> hey i have two waypoints and multiple stations in between .. i ordered a train to go from point A to point B and central station .. all works fien but i constantly get the message that the train has to few order in the schedule . how i can turn off that message ?
19:43:50 <fonsinchen> some people have expressed interest in smallmap zoom in because they can't properly see things in the smallmap due to their monitors having a very high resolution.
19:44:13 <Rubidium> uros: there's some advanced setting about order reviews
19:44:25 <fonsinchen> So, in fact there is a reason to have smallmap-zoom-in, apart from cargodist.
19:44:57 <fonsinchen> As I know the "-8" zoom level was ridiculous, I have just dropped it now.
19:46:20 <fonsinchen> oh, actually that's not the latest one ... wait a minute
19:47:58 <Rubidium> thvdburgt: that's not "make V=1" output
19:49:39 <Rubidium> oh... interesting way to show boost's missing
19:51:38 <thvdburgt> I found out libboost was missing after manually setting GCC64=1, only then gave it the libboost is missing message
19:52:02 <Rubidium> thvdburgt: it fail differently/better now :)
19:54:59 <George> House construction check (17)
19:54:59 <George> Since the building is not created yet, you can't use variables 40 and 41 (they return zero). You can use variable 42, 43, 44, 45 and all town variables, though. Since OpenTTD r19744 you can also access the random bits via RandomAction2 or variable 5F.
19:54:59 <George> What byte of var 5F stores random bits - byto 0 or byte 1?
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20:06:32 <Hirundo> George: byte 0 = triggers, byte 1 and further = random bits?
20:10:41 <planetmaker> closed and sealed, Belugas :-)
20:10:44 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: personally I have no need for it, and I'm using a pretty high DPI monitor (15" 1920x1200)
20:11:09 <planetmaker> Rubidium: but you're known for your 2pixel-letters as well :-P
20:11:11 <Rubidium> although I don't really have time to review patches or fix bugs either
20:13:31 <fonsinchen> Rubidium: I don't have such a display either, but I can imagine the problem being worse on laptops. I can only quote Zephyris from the cargodist thread to back that up.
20:13:35 <Belugas> Indeed, it is, planetmaker. Can anyone close Sirkoz as well? I mean.. once and for all?
20:16:15 <George> Hirundo: unfortunately NFOrenum r768 reports
20:16:20 <George> //!!Warning (103): Offset 6: Shifting variable 5F past its length.
20:16:20 <George> 2663 * 30 02 07 F0 81 5F 08 0F 05
20:16:20 <planetmaker> but he's on the sunny side of the alps ;-)
20:16:56 <planetmaker> which means 5F is ... a bye?
20:17:18 <George> so that makes me think it should be byte 0
20:17:34 <George> 5F D Feature-specific random data: triggers in low byte, bits in other three bytes. Bits of the variable not associated with random or trigger bits are reserved. (2.5 r1927, 2.6 r1928)
20:18:11 <Hirundo> but not every bit in that dword is valid for all features
20:18:16 <George> But NFOrenum does not think so
20:18:41 <George> Hirundo: We are speakin about Houses and CB 17
20:19:38 <planetmaker> town buildings have 8 random bits
20:20:05 <George> that n\means byte 1 should be checked?
20:21:45 <Belugas> sunny is not the same as funny. could be dummy too...
20:21:51 <Belugas> hooo.. the bitch i can be :)
20:22:07 <Hirundo> Inspection of the source code suggests that the first two bytes (triggers + bits) are valid, although no trigger bits will be set so byte 0 is pointless
20:22:24 <planetmaker> houses have two triggers
20:22:49 <planetmaker> but of course not prior to construction. Or rather the triggers are pointless
20:23:12 <George> planetmaker: While CB17 no house is build
20:23:40 <planetmaker> That's why periodic processing triggers are pointless
20:24:05 <George> so it is a bug with NFO renum?
20:24:13 <planetmaker> I'm still not sure
20:24:29 <planetmaker> I'd assume var 5F returns only the random bits?
20:25:49 <planetmaker> according to the source code
20:26:17 <George> But NFOrenum does not allow me to check byte 1
20:26:40 <planetmaker> newgrf_spritegroup.cpp: case 0x5F: return (object->GetRandomBits(object) << 8) | object->GetTriggers(object);
20:26:45 <planetmaker> might be a bug then :-)
20:27:27 <George> where should it be reported?
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20:29:25 <George> frosch123: Hi, where should I make bug report about NFOrenum r768
20:33:01 <George> is the description enough?
20:36:26 <frosch123> hmm, looks like 5f is wrong for almost all features :p
20:37:39 <frosch123> iirc we changed somewhen the meaning, maybe nforenum was not updated
20:41:05 <frosch123> Objects have around 8 random bits per tile of the object. <- "around"? :p
20:42:31 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 2.82842712475
20:42:44 <planetmaker> +/-2.8 I'd say for statistics reasons ;-)
20:59:16 <thvdburgt> planetmaker, you might want to update the hg clone url in the readme of TTRS, the current one gives an HTTP 406 error.
20:59:50 <planetmaker> Thanks for the hint. I'll look
21:00:39 <thvdburgt> yes, found it already on the repository page :)
21:03:28 <Ammler> what is the nonworking url?
21:05:07 <Ammler> oh well, that I can't rewrtie
21:05:27 <planetmaker> that's the project URL for the browser
21:05:45 <planetmaker> it shouldn't be rewritten to something else, I think
21:07:37 <thvdburgt> planetmaker, great, thanks
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21:32:26 <GT> Sigh, colour management in OTTD is getting on my nerves.
21:32:50 <frosch123> how about greyscale then?
21:32:58 <Eddi|zuHause> there aren't even that many colours, how are they difficult to handle? :p
21:33:27 * Rubidium leaves all that colour management to his optical nerves
21:34:15 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: How will you handle that many colors with only 2 eyes?
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21:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> eyes are heavily parallelized :)
21:36:04 <GT> there are a lot of tables that shuffle the palette, loaded when loading the base grfs, then some of them get copied to a remap table (gradient_colours) for rectangle drawing, and sometimes things are drawn using a colour index directly (even with some magical constants)
21:36:13 <dihedral> <Eddi|zuHause> eyes are heavily parallelized :) <- LOL
21:36:16 <Rubidium> fjb: good question, because humans can only distinguish like 1 to 2 million colours
21:36:27 <Rubidium> and AFAIK I've only got 2 cores
21:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: there are lots of levels before even getting to the "Core"
21:37:08 <GT> the amount of colours the human eye can distinguish is under severe debate.
21:37:26 <dihedral> but 2 cores at 10.000 GHz is better than 18 cores ar 2GHz
21:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the human eye can distinguish exactly 3 colours
21:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the rest is done interpolating by the brain
21:38:17 <dihedral> i spy with my little eye, something that is a bit green, has some red, and a touch of yellow
21:38:31 <fjb> And managing something is quite different from plain handling ist. Or why do managers always get bonuses?
21:38:38 <GT> well, we can also distinguish greytones, which does not count as a colour.
21:39:05 <Rubidium> fjb: to keep them out of actually harming the customer?
21:39:43 <fjb> Rubidium: They are harming the rest of the world instead.
21:40:12 <Rubidium> the world is insignificant
21:40:26 <GT> why does the blitter do a palette lookup (involving indirection) for every pixel in a sprite?
21:41:05 <Rubidium> and to support the 8 bits graphics
21:41:21 <GT> there's a remap[m], and then a lookupColourInPalette
21:42:45 <GT> Rubidium, sure, but not needed every pixel, filling a 32bpp table once before a sprite gets drawn seems more efficient to me than doing it every pixel
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21:43:25 <GT> or even better, fill a couple of 32bpp tables, and setting the right pointer depending on the palette
21:44:36 <GT> I mean blitters need to be blittingly fast, not doing some indirection or housekeeping
21:45:48 * Rubidium redirects this to SmatZ; he's the one that has worked on optimising the 32bpp blitters
21:46:03 <glx> palette animation (water, flashing lights, ... )
21:46:08 <DorpsGek> GT: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 3 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <SmatZ> 7.8-8.2
21:46:24 <Rubidium> so he should/might have a clue why that high level optimisation might be feasible or not
21:47:03 <GT> it is feasible, I made it, but then got into trouble drawing strings, and rects
21:47:11 <glx> just keep in mind the game is basically 8bpp (with all 8bpp features)
21:49:01 <GT> And to make my day even better, the latest Gentoo emerge decided my KDE does not need a taskbar or desktop anymore, I love blindtyping
21:49:10 <Rubidium> oh, you've replaced palette animation with something 32bpp-ish?
21:50:17 <GT> no, replace palette lookup by putting 32bp colours in the spritecache when recolor sprites get loaded, so the blitter does not have to do that.
21:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> GT: tried starting "plasma-desktop" manually?
21:50:52 <GT> After which I find out that main_gui copies those colours
21:52:59 * Rubidium is going to wait a few thousand more seconds
21:53:12 <GT> Eddi, thanks a lot, it does show nasty messages, but my desktop is back at least
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22:36:02 <SpComb> more git magic is called for
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