IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-09-22
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00:59:03 <Underline> any Brazilian here?
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07:16:00 <heffer> moin guys. i will test the grfcodec trunk now
07:21:55 <heffer> Rubidium: the newest trunk builds without any problems again
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07:38:14 <planetmaker> hm... just noticed this Rubidium "dbg: [misc] Drawing string using newlines with DrawString instead of DrawStringMultiLine. Please notify the developers of this: []" when loading wally's object file
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07:43:22 <Rubidium> planetmaker: file a bug report, otherwise it'll be forgotten
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10:16:07 <andythenorth> when an industry is build in town and has an entrance or gate adjacent to a road tile, it would be nice if there was a road piece connected to the entrance
10:16:25 <andythenorth> players can build one, but it would be nicer if it was automatic
10:17:41 <andythenorth> having road pieces frequently check adjacent tiles is presumably bad?
10:18:13 <andythenorth> what about having industry tiles set a bit in adjacent tiles when built
10:18:44 <Noldo> you need to do it by issuing a command I think
10:19:06 <andythenorth> and a cb on the industry tile when an neighbouring tile changes? (to deal with destruction / consutruction)
10:19:33 <andythenorth> it would be useful for some station tiles as well
10:20:12 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you've done some work with road tiles?
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10:23:27 <Terkhen> a little; only with the building roads code
10:25:01 <andythenorth> I should try and write a proposal, but I don't know how road tiles work at all :)
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10:36:16 <Terkhen> and I don't know about industries and callbacks :)
10:38:56 <andythenorth> I kind of do. A bit :)
10:43:01 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like the wrong approach, though...
10:44:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: better route?
10:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as you can't actually drive into the industry, you might want to override the pavement graphics instead of placing a road bit
10:44:51 <andythenorth> yes, that would be interesting
10:47:21 <fjb> I would not do anything to the road. Players interested in such details will place the road bit on their own. It is more important to align the entrance to a possible road and not to the border of a tile.
10:47:23 <planetmaker> that's IMHO the wrong approach ;-)
10:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not afraid about the amount of work, i'm more afraid about runtime complexity, and newgrf collisions (i.e. if you add a road texture to your industry grf, it might not fit the road graphics by the road grf, especially with (potentially) upcoming roadstypes
10:47:41 <planetmaker> as industry messing with the road graphics will glitch in > 50% of the cases
10:48:36 <planetmaker> the proper approach - if road awareness is desired - is to check for existing road pieces and build the entrance accordingly
10:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> might also want to check for rail pieces in that case
10:49:46 <andythenorth> it's not just road awareness by the industry - it's also having the road tile 'connect' to the entrance
10:50:03 <andythenorth> road awareness I could do already :)
10:50:35 <planetmaker> well... don't provide your own road sprites :-)
10:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what planetmaker means is: if the player places a road towards the industry, make the industry show the entrance at that place
10:50:40 <fjb> I would let the players build the connecting road bit.
10:51:19 <planetmaker> again: what Eddi says ;-)
10:51:59 <fjb> Wich is also not the best idea. Imagine parts of the industry jumping around when new roads are build.
10:52:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if the industries/houses can actually check the roadBITS yet, or only roadTILES
10:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: some houses do that already
10:52:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had houses change directions when i placed a depot
10:54:01 <andythenorth> maybe just let the players do it
10:54:19 <andythenorth> I think it sort of sucks, but not the biggest thing in the world :P
10:54:26 <andythenorth> players do it == no new code
10:55:15 <fjb> Players who care do it any way. Others just don't care.
10:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, like i said, i'd love to see rail entrances into industries
10:56:14 <andythenorth> what actual tracks?
10:56:19 <andythenorth> in the industry tiles?
10:57:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, if a rail is placed towards the industry, add rail tracks on the industry area, possibly leading into warehouses
10:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (obviously graphical only)
10:57:48 <andythenorth> isn't that what ISR is for? :o
10:57:52 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, question is: which types of rail?
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10:58:21 <andythenorth> I've left gaps in some FIRS industries to support routes 'inside' them
10:58:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: generic ones.
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10:58:50 <andythenorth> ISR is the solution :)
10:58:57 * andythenorth wishes we had the source to ISR available
10:59:05 <andythenorth> it's not in the zip and I just missed it?
10:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if the graphics don't match, the player can opt to not build such a connection
10:59:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you can ask for it. They MUST provide it.
10:59:40 <andythenorth> I know. I'll pm mart3p
11:00:00 <planetmaker> I fear though that the source is somewhat a de-compiled newgrf.
11:01:03 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I guess that's then a fancy for something > 1.0
11:01:52 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I hope it's more than that :P
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13:12:28 * andythenorth ponders windmills
13:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> pre-industrial water mills might be interesting, but only in scenarios that contain rivers...
13:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> before the steam engine, water was the main source of power
13:14:33 <andythenorth> there's a windmill in FIRS
13:14:42 <andythenorth> the issue is that it needs to be consolidated with the bakery
13:14:59 <andythenorth> and the layout sizes are rather different :o
13:15:31 <andythenorth> I am defeated by patching the game to handle this with cb28
13:15:33 <Eddi|zuHause> a windmill shouldn't be significantly larger than a lighthouse
13:15:51 <andythenorth> the bakery has 2x2 or large layouts
13:16:31 <andythenorth> the largest is something like 4x2
13:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm starting to think these early industries only make sense if you have production caps
13:18:56 <andythenorth> some have lower production ratios ;)
13:19:09 <andythenorth> but I'm finding them a bit irritating to produce
13:20:10 <andythenorth> they're small and it's hard to find source imagery
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13:21:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that might be the wrong way round. industrial production tends to produce more "waste" than manual production, but the overall capacity is several magnitudes higher
13:22:21 <andythenorth> yes indeed, but can you propose a viable alternative solution in gameplay? ;)
13:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, you can limit the output. like "can only process 120 items per month"
13:23:35 <andythenorth> stockpiling is almost universally loathed
13:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no, stockpile limit is incoming cargo
13:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean: still accept incoming cargo, but produce nothing
13:24:25 <andythenorth> I'd need alternative code for the 'turn off limits' parameter which would be demanded :o
13:24:35 <andythenorth> what would the alternative be?
13:25:09 <andythenorth> configurable limit using parameter?
13:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and this would be only for the small early manufacturing chains
13:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> not for the later industrial chains
13:26:56 <andythenorth> why would the earlier ones be limited but later ones ~ infinite capacity
13:27:05 <andythenorth> I open to the idea btw
13:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> there's an intrinsic game limit anyway
13:27:31 <andythenorth> planetmaker opinions ^
13:28:23 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you want to limit the throughput?
13:28:34 <planetmaker> not a linear relation input -> output? Na...
13:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in my imagination, the gameplay incentive for early startes would then be to reroute their existing transports to the larger industries once they apppear
13:31:50 <planetmaker> It basically would mean that you again have to constantly re-arange your network
13:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that was the main problem in pre-industrial craftsmanship. one man can only do so much.
13:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but unrealism --> useless duplication
13:32:52 <planetmaker> where do you see a duplication?
13:33:17 <planetmaker> You could "just" upgrade the graphics over time, from say a manual forge to an industry
13:33:35 <Eddi|zuHause> now that's an extremely silly idea
13:33:58 <planetmaker> It's gameplay wise an extremely silly idea to constantly force the player to swap the industry to deliver to
13:34:13 <Eddi|zuHause> a "manual" forge is much smaller than a steel mill
13:34:25 <andythenorth> forge is a bad example :)
13:34:31 <andythenorth> there will be a separate forge and steel mill
13:34:40 <andythenorth> grain mill is a better example :)
13:35:13 <andythenorth> the issue of production for early industry is being conflated with industry layouts question :)
13:37:16 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but that is the only problem. And that is imho much less severe than swapping industries
13:37:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i just mean, a production cap would be a definite incentive to include newly created industries into the network
13:37:37 <andythenorth> so will better production ratio
13:37:46 <andythenorth> haven't tested it yet :P
13:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there is no "swapping" involved. the old industry will still function the same way
13:39:14 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: mind you, we are talking about a time where the majority of transport was being done by horse carts
13:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need to create a new network for the upcoming railways anyway
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13:44:08 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, exactly. And you basically want that the network constantly needs to look for the newest industry type where things can be dumped
13:44:15 <planetmaker> which is... boring
13:44:32 <planetmaker> it means I have to constantly revise the routes of my vehicles
13:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there's not "constantly" a new industry type coming up
13:44:56 <planetmaker> An industry should silently upgrade
13:45:07 <andythenorth> that won't happen
13:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's not worse than "constantly" a new engine type with a higher speed limit
13:45:36 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, of course. That is easily solved by autoreplace. Two clicks. Done. Network wide
13:46:02 <planetmaker> Changing all orders to a new steel production plant for the dozens of ore transports: great pain
13:46:13 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that's what will happen for steel
13:46:15 <andythenorth> for certain chains, there will arrive new, (more efficient) destinations for cargo
13:46:19 * roboboywi leaves win3.11 for windows 7
13:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if you don't want the industry chains to change, start in 1950
13:46:29 <andythenorth> the old ones will remain open
13:46:45 <andythenorth> rerouting is up to the player, it's an option
13:47:11 <planetmaker> helau to micromanagement in a screwed up time line
13:47:16 <andythenorth> we won't close any old industries (except maybe a special case...guano mine)
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13:48:05 <planetmaker> whatever it is, I strongly like to discourage production caps.
13:48:23 <planetmaker> Efficiency is a point which might give incentive.
13:48:30 <andythenorth> cap will inevitably create a mini-deluge of requests for a parameter
13:48:35 <andythenorth> it happened once already with supplies
13:48:55 * andythenorth applies 'go see' method, rather than arguing in abstract
13:49:02 * andythenorth -> TT Foundry site
13:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there's nothing wrong with planning this parameter in advance ;)
13:49:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i just mean, production caps would be something less annoying than stockpile limits, but still effective.
13:50:13 <planetmaker> production efficiency is IMHO enough
13:50:21 <andythenorth> the only industry chain that is affected by this specific question is iron ore -> metal
13:50:36 <planetmaker> having a max. production as an option... well, if it makes people happy
13:50:45 <andythenorth> and maybe, if added, a lime works which would be early cement plant, but I can't be bothered with that :)
13:51:13 <andythenorth> I researched steel production. Finery forges were significantly less efficient than bessemer and similar later furnaces
13:51:28 <andythenorth> so lower production ratio is valid for both gameplay and reality :)
13:52:16 <andythenorth> that only leaves a new question I hadn't thought of: lower production (via limit or ratio) for industries in earlier centuries
13:52:25 <andythenorth> i.e. efficiency could increase over time
13:52:42 <andythenorth> I don't think it's necessary
13:53:07 <andythenorth> in early games, production will be limited by how many horse carts or ships can deliver
13:53:33 <andythenorth> and there won't be much primary production on a typical map as ENSP / FMSP won't be widely available, or quick to transport
13:54:41 <andythenorth> so for example, paper mill could be limited / inefficient in 843AD
13:54:54 <andythenorth> and uncapped / more efficient by 1930
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14:06:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: resp. restricting some layouts by time....
14:07:40 <andythenorth> do you think it's acceptable for the player to be shown a 'try again' message if game picks a not-allowed layout?
14:08:04 <andythenorth> when funding an industry
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14:23:10 <planetmaker> Would the game do that and not automatically pick another layout?
14:23:31 <Belugas> exhausted, and the day has merely started
14:24:06 * planetmaker gives Belugas one of the "gevulde koeken" which are here on my desk
14:24:30 <Rubidium> sounds awkwardly Dutch to me
14:25:13 <Belugas> wake up pills? boost dinks? I TAKE THEM ALL!!!
14:25:24 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like cookies to me
14:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> although i have only heard of "danish cookies"...
14:26:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but you do realize that prague locates in the opposite direction :p
14:27:14 <andythenorth> planetmaker: game doesn't automatically pick another layout
14:27:34 <andythenorth> and even if trunk is updated, I guess I should consider legacy players
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14:33:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth, that'd be somewhat annoying, yes
14:34:32 <planetmaker> well, if trunk is feature-enhanced, then it's ok for legacy players to get the message.
14:34:41 <andythenorth> that's quite a big if...
14:35:16 <andythenorth> other options would be:
14:35:38 <andythenorth> - live with redundant industries in the minimap (same cargo in / out)
14:35:43 <andythenorth> - remove some industries
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14:36:57 <planetmaker> Actually I'd remove industries :-)
14:37:07 <planetmaker> or... de-activate them. For now
14:37:16 <planetmaker> Depending upon the economy setting one or the other could be chosen
14:38:59 <planetmaker> Rubidium, sure the 'gevulde koeken' are from a Dutch supermarket :-) Going to one is something I usually do when time allows when I'm in NL
14:40:05 <Rubidium> you should just go to your local Lidl/Aldi and ask for it. Maybe they can get it, after all it's sold in Aldi/Lidl's over here
14:40:19 <andythenorth> I favour removing the industries too. It's trivial :)
14:41:29 <__ln__> does Lidl deliver things per order like that?
14:44:39 <planetmaker> Rubidium, maybe. But then I boycott at least Lidl for their mal-treatment of their employees
15:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'm sure i ranted about this "greatest" guy before...
15:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling he's constantly asking about ways to "cheat without cheating"
15:01:26 * andythenorth needs to power some LEDs
15:01:32 <andythenorth> for Lego purposes
15:01:44 <andythenorth> connecting them directly to the battery box may be a bad strategy :P
15:02:09 <planetmaker> But I'd add some resistors
15:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> LEDs tend to need a fixed voltage
15:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause> everything else is fairly irrelevant
15:02:41 <planetmaker> not quite. LEDs are current-driven
15:02:55 <planetmaker> which is the important thing there
15:03:01 <andythenorth> and I may connect several in series
15:03:10 * andythenorth finds electronics boring :P
15:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: hm.. that doesn't seem to match what i learned about LEDs
15:04:14 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: maybe but the important part is current not voltage :)
15:04:28 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, they're ohm elements. But the current mostly defines their brightness as their U-I curve is usually quite steep
15:05:00 <planetmaker> and over-current is what destroys them, not over-voltage ;-)
15:05:22 <planetmaker> if you ever get a current source ;-)
15:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but batteries are voltage-sources
15:07:11 <planetmaker> still, you want a current limitation for your LEDs. The voltage is not that important
15:07:38 <planetmaker> let's say: I tried ;-)
15:11:03 <planetmaker> The permissible voltage range is HUGE compared to the permissible current range
15:13:01 <planetmaker> thus brightness in the usual LED lamps is usually controlled by a variable resistor where the minimum resistance gives the maximum permissible current for the max. voltage
15:13:16 <andythenorth> if there are one or two motors on the same circuit, do I need to consider that?
15:13:41 <andythenorth> oh, and the power varies, not sure if by pulse or voltage
15:13:52 <planetmaker> you won't have constant illumination then, depending upon the motors' load
15:14:00 <andythenorth> but the lego trains have a range of available speeds...
15:14:22 <andythenorth> I think one of them uses pulse power to regulate speed, the other probably uses variable voltage
15:14:42 <planetmaker> LED + pulse is fine. Voltage variation... well. you have certain requirements there
15:15:13 <andythenorth> basically if the resistors are in series with the LEDs, the LEDs should be fine.
15:15:14 <planetmaker> LED + pulse is a nice way to actually determine brightness. Using that you can easily overdrive LEDs - for microseconds
15:15:32 <andythenorth> wonder what happens when the motor stalls. That's normally a high current situation?
15:16:11 <planetmaker> depends upon your setup ;-)
15:16:45 <andythenorth> ^ the baby is hitting the keys
15:18:55 * andythenorth ponders FIRS wholesale market
15:27:04 <Belugas> at home, if it's not baby, it's kitty ;)
15:27:16 <Belugas> granted, baby is not baby anymore...
15:29:36 <andythenorth> the wholesale market exists so there's somewhere to take livestock before the Meat Packer is available
15:31:45 <andythenorth> wonder if it's needed :P
15:32:40 <planetmaker> well, no lifestock service in early times would be sad.
15:33:06 <planetmaker> Though I found an interesting quirk: not all road vehicle sets support early lifestock transports. Which was a bit of a hassle
15:34:12 <andythenorth> I think it's needed
15:34:16 <andythenorth> I'm just not sure how to make it work
15:34:36 <andythenorth> also after a certain date, the Meat Packer should be located much closer to the livestock farming areas
15:36:24 <andythenorth> the days of long distance live animal transport are gone :)
15:37:02 <andythenorth> highly mechanised packing allowed abbatoirs to locate much closer to farms (also reducing transport cost and complying with animal welfare regulations)
15:37:34 <andythenorth> also, it would help reduce the regular demand to train set authors to provide high-speed cattle cars :P
15:38:16 <planetmaker> this game is about transport, though...
15:38:50 <planetmaker> and then you enforce the meat packer close to a farm. And what do people do? Transport animals all across the map to the meat packer next to the other farm cluster
15:39:01 <planetmaker> Would be pointless to spend code on that ;-)
15:39:27 <andythenorth> I'm not going to do it. I 'should', but I won't :P
15:39:47 <planetmaker> that distance just uses a different scale :-P
15:48:15 <andythenorth> not sure whether to (1) keep wholesale market as separate industry, with lower efficiency than meat packer....
15:48:33 <andythenorth> or (2) make it one industry which changes graphics at certain point in time
15:49:30 <andythenorth> I'm preferring 1
15:49:34 <planetmaker> the wholesale market was first, meat packer comes later, right?
15:50:00 <andythenorth> wholesale market also provides acceptance of fruit & veg
15:50:20 <planetmaker> there's nothing else before the meat packer?
15:50:29 <andythenorth> not for livestock
15:50:30 <planetmaker> why... not remove lifestock from the wholesale market
15:50:40 <andythenorth> could do tannery -> goods :0
15:50:41 <planetmaker> and have the 'meat packer' renamed to butcher. Or so
15:50:59 <andythenorth> could do 'stockyard & tannery'
15:51:43 *** dafkis is now known as davis
15:51:44 <planetmaker> would stockyard fit the thing in early times? But yes, that sounds not like a bad idea
15:52:01 <planetmaker> the wholesale market could still accept food, goods, vegies
15:52:35 <planetmaker> it produces food. Milk
15:53:23 <planetmaker> the longer I think the more it duplicates the grocery / supermarket
15:53:36 <planetmaker> stockyard + tannery is better :-)
15:54:13 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the grocery / supermarket *accept* food :)
15:54:16 <planetmaker> the wholesale market as it's now (is it drawn?) could just be another layout for a supermarket
15:54:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes :-)
15:54:23 <andythenorth> something has to produce it :)
15:54:34 <planetmaker> the stockyard ;-)
15:54:35 <andythenorth> the wholesale market currently is a food producer
15:54:59 <planetmaker> could supermarkets accept fruits directly?
15:55:02 <andythenorth> leaves a question about destination for fruit + veg
15:55:22 <planetmaker> also, of course, the distillery
15:55:42 <planetmaker> just the difference between solid and liqud :-P
15:55:47 <andythenorth> all fruit == beer? :P
15:56:23 <andythenorth> in some parts of the UK, cider was the staple food stuff for farm workers
15:56:29 <andythenorth> they didn't really eat
15:57:13 <planetmaker> hm... and again we agreed to change industries :-P
15:58:28 <planetmaker> actually...: just rename the industry :-)
15:58:40 <planetmaker> question though is: what do they do with food?
15:59:20 <planetmaker> hm... Can you keep the layout of the industry?
15:59:34 <planetmaker> when doing wholesale market -> stockyard?
15:59:44 <andythenorth> well it's not drawn at all yet :)
16:00:12 <planetmaker> well. As long as the tile layout as it's currently coded remains valid, a change will not be fatal
16:00:26 <planetmaker> even if you change acceptance
16:00:30 <andythenorth> it's just a 2x2 square, which happens to be fine for a market
16:00:39 <andythenorth> but anyway, I think we broke 0.4 compatibility some time ago :P
16:01:29 <planetmaker> 2x2 is also fine for a stockyard...
16:01:40 <planetmaker> at least as _one_ layout ;-)
16:02:05 <andythenorth> I'm not sure both Meat Packer and Stockyard are justified
16:02:17 <andythenorth> I wonder about making them one and the same
16:02:30 <andythenorth> the acceptance and production ratios would be ok
16:02:50 <andythenorth> that could leave wholesale market as some kind of food processor for fruit + veg
16:02:56 <planetmaker> could be. Call it stockyard then :-)
16:03:21 <planetmaker> I always found 'meat packer' somewhat... dunno... not a nice name
16:04:06 <planetmaker> I didn't know stockyard until today but it sounds nicer
16:04:23 <andythenorth> better than 'slaughterhouse' :P
16:04:50 <andythenorth> so only fruit & remains to deal with
16:05:54 <andythenorth> irl both fruit->shop and fruit->processor are valid
16:06:18 <Rubidium> sorry, but my processor really needs electrons
16:06:47 * andythenorth considers that cargo again
16:06:54 <andythenorth> do towns also need electrons?
16:07:02 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, the amount of electrons actually moving into the processor is minimal
16:07:08 <andythenorth> electrons don't actually move (very far), right?
16:07:13 <andythenorth> they just wobble a bit
16:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, although the movement is probably higher with DC than with AC
16:09:23 <planetmaker> IIRC the speed was of the order of mm/s
16:10:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth, IMHO there's nothing wrong with allowing fruits to be delivered both, to a shop and some processing facility (e.g. distillery)
16:10:45 <planetmaker> where the distillery then produces some liquid which again can go to a shop
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16:11:05 <planetmaker> (saves me to define which liquid :-P)
16:12:21 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, the size of the processor is also in the order of mm ;)
16:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause> also, processors are optimised to cause as little current as possible
16:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause> because current == heat
16:15:02 <planetmaker> But there's two things going in: the number of electrons as well as their speed
16:15:06 * andythenorth is baffled by fruit & veg :D
16:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> current is caused by intrinsic capacities (e.g. parallel connections), and basically mean less processor speed
16:15:13 <planetmaker> speed ~ voltage. Number ~ size
16:15:33 <planetmaker> no way, andythenorth
16:16:22 <planetmaker> independent of that. It's a fun cargo
16:16:38 <andythenorth> lets think real life....
16:16:39 <planetmaker> and I coded it already for OpenGFX+trains ;-)
16:16:54 <andythenorth> fruit == citrus, apples, pears etc
16:17:04 <andythenorth> also, olives & grapes
16:17:14 <andythenorth> veg = root crops, salad etc
16:17:49 <planetmaker> I never understood why you called it Fruit + _vegetables_
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16:18:00 <planetmaker> any place where the vegetable aspect is used?
16:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> at least with combinging them, you don't have problems with the classification of tomatos :p
16:18:16 <andythenorth> in railroad tycoon 3 there was an equivalent cargo "Produce"
16:18:20 <andythenorth> maybe I copied that :P
16:18:35 <andythenorth> also, why leave carrots out of the game :P
16:19:09 <andythenorth> potatoes -> distillery -> vodka
16:19:17 <Eddi|zuHause> # what do they need such good eyesight for anyway...
16:19:23 <planetmaker> well. Same could do with just fruit, andythenorth
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16:30:48 <planetmaker> andy, is there already a sugar refinery?
16:33:10 <andythenorth> it's a green block :P
16:34:05 <planetmaker> I just drew the cargo chain in the agriculture / food sector
16:34:24 <planetmaker> I wonder whether the arable farm should not produce RSGR but rather fibre crops
16:34:38 <planetmaker> It'd allow for another branch in the industry sector
16:34:57 <planetmaker> fibre crops could be delivered to the ethanol plant
16:35:11 <planetmaker> and als to the textile mill
16:35:31 <planetmaker> hm... not the latter
16:36:36 <andythenorth> are fibre crops ~= cotton?
16:36:36 <planetmaker> or it could deliver them to the bio powerplant ;-)
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16:37:06 <planetmaker> fibre crops is like henf
16:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> hemp is also fibre, isn't it?
16:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (if that's the correct name)
16:38:01 <andythenorth> planetmaker: explain more?
16:38:56 <planetmaker> it currently looks like two nearly distinct industry sets: agriculture on the one side. Mining-related industries on the other
16:39:01 <planetmaker> Both share nearly nothing
16:40:02 <planetmaker> actually they DO share nothing. Except via some supplies. But no other cross-"contamination"
16:40:42 <planetmaker> I just wonder whether it might be interesting to have at least some other link
16:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is entirely "realistic", isn't it?
16:41:07 <Eddi|zuHause> how should you link them? throwing apples into furnaces?
16:41:08 <planetmaker> Well. Rubber. Ethanol.
16:41:44 <andythenorth> planetmaker: rubber remains a possibility in some economy
16:42:04 <andythenorth> ethanol will be in 0.5 :)
16:42:12 <andythenorth> I'm not sure how else to link them?
16:42:16 <planetmaker> stockyard could accept wood
16:42:35 <andythenorth> they are already linked via FMSP
16:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> nowadays, rubber is mostly synthetical. and even before, "rubber plantations" don't have a lot in common with other agricultural industries
16:42:39 <planetmaker> s/stockyard/tannery
16:42:48 <andythenorth> "most of our food is oil"
16:42:57 <andythenorth> petrol -> machine shop -> farms
16:43:18 <planetmaker> I meant oil from oil seeds like rhapsody(?) etc
16:43:31 <planetmaker> ethanol from grain
16:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> there's probably an interesting field of research: the agriculture of Cuba after it's oil supplies from "brotherstates" ran dry in the 1990's
16:44:11 <planetmaker> Agriculture currently is nearly alway X->Y-(FOOD)->Shop
16:44:22 <andythenorth> the ethanol plant will adjust that
16:44:32 <andythenorth> I think that's kind of how rl works though also?
16:44:43 <planetmaker> and that them is exploited 7 times
16:45:06 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what's missing with food is a minimum requirement for towns in order to sustain themselves
16:45:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: cotton / wool -> goods
16:45:42 * andythenorth lists farm cargos
16:45:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes. the only exception
16:45:57 <planetmaker> frvg, cttn, grai, rsgr, lvst, milk, wool, fish
16:46:15 <andythenorth> livestock; fruit & veg; sugar, grain, milk -> food
16:46:20 <andythenorth> fish is from the sea ;)
16:46:27 <andythenorth> but fish -> food
16:46:36 <andythenorth> wool / cttn -> goods
16:46:43 <planetmaker> It applies to the theme X -> Y -> food
16:46:49 <andythenorth> xxx -> food does kind of dominate
16:47:05 <planetmaker> especially the arable farm has both chains X -> Y -> food
16:47:05 <Eddi|zuHause> industries producing livestock, wool or milk might be secondary industries requiring grain and frvg as input
16:47:06 <Belugas> fish -> oil -> medecine -> goods
16:47:29 <Belugas> fish -> skin -> clothing -> goods
16:47:43 <andythenorth> is the problem that food has no purpose?
16:47:51 <andythenorth> I don't really bother transporting it
16:47:57 <andythenorth> except in tropic
16:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, imho that's the main problem
16:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause> only mail is worse than that...
16:48:32 <planetmaker> Not really. But I'd like to see the agriculture line have some impact on the other parts, too
16:49:01 <planetmaker> to not have 7x exactly the same thing just differently named
16:49:27 <planetmaker> like for example adding wood to the tannery ;-)
16:50:05 <planetmaker> or oil seeds or fibre crops to the arable farm
16:50:16 <planetmaker> it gives a more integrated economy
16:52:27 <andythenorth> but ultimately most of the alternatives will just end in 'goods' no?
16:52:28 <planetmaker> and indeed the harbour could produce both, oil and FOOD ;-)
16:52:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes
16:52:35 <andythenorth> do you bother transporting goods?
16:52:40 <andythenorth> it's pointless :P
16:53:11 <planetmaker> I bother to transport things through the whole chain
16:53:17 <andythenorth> in fact all non-PAX town cargos are pointless
16:53:23 <planetmaker> And it's fun if the chain is not just two hops but branches
16:53:30 <andythenorth> I only transport goods if the vehicle sprites are fun :D
16:53:31 <planetmaker> That makes then other industries also interesting
16:54:10 <planetmaker> that argument is your usual killer. But that argument applies to any cargo
16:54:19 <andythenorth> I think (a) farm -> food cargos might be over-represented and (b) there is a fundamental problem with town cargos
16:54:33 <andythenorth> see how easy it is to start tweaking cargo chains :P
16:54:54 * fjb is transporting goods and foot but almost never mail.
16:55:38 <andythenorth> new cargo: 'feet'
16:56:55 <fjb> Mail becomes a bit more interesting with cargodist.
16:57:36 <planetmaker> yes. Mail is dead boring
16:58:45 <Belugas> yeah... always bills.. no checks...
16:59:26 <Belugas> hoo... that could be interesting... new cargo: bills/checks...
17:00:40 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I was thinking straw -> building materials (thatch)
17:01:07 <fjb> We would have to convince Irwe to draw a tax office.
17:01:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth, also an interesting thing. But straw is fibre crops
17:03:42 <Rubidium> fjb: a tax office needs some special code so *if* you destroy one you're screwed tax-wise :)
17:04:31 <andythenorth> planetmaker: consolidate FRVG + RSGR to 'crops' ?
17:04:40 <fjb> New cargo: tax office terrorists.
17:05:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth, no, that would just introduce a completely new cargo.
17:05:15 <planetmaker> Fruit and fibre crops or oil seeds is fine enough for everything needed IMHO
17:05:34 <planetmaker> at least by cargo label. By name you might call the fibre crops differently. Straw, if you like
17:05:37 <Rubidium> maybe just consolidate a bit more: till you end with someones and stuff
17:05:49 <andythenorth> I'm not 100% convinced on fibre crops.
17:05:58 <andythenorth> where do they go / what do they produce?
17:06:09 <Rubidium> delivering fibre to towns should increase the waste production of the town
17:06:10 <planetmaker> they go - as you proposed - to the building yard
17:06:54 <planetmaker> what does produce manufact. supplies? that could accept it, too
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17:07:28 <andythenorth> fibre -> plastics plant?
17:07:37 <andythenorth> significant plant component in some plastics...
17:11:03 <planetmaker> hm. No, we need a bad conciousness
17:11:20 <andythenorth> I would be leaving cargo chains alone for now
17:11:29 <andythenorth> I think there are too many farm->food cargos
17:11:35 <andythenorth> but I need to play a test game or so
17:11:41 <andythenorth> I haven't played FIRS for ages
17:12:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth, it could indeed go to the plastics plant. The industry would just need a new name
17:12:38 <planetmaker> And it's not a change which breaks anything. And that's what 1462 is about
17:12:47 <planetmaker> This is changing things which are not there
17:13:00 <planetmaker> And 'just' renaming them somewhat
17:13:50 <andythenorth> what would we rename?
17:14:22 <planetmaker> plastics plant does not sound right anymore, if it accepts firbre crops
17:15:03 <planetmaker> it's a thing which produces 'stuff' :-P
17:16:07 <andythenorth> would we add fibre crops?
17:16:07 <planetmaker> it could produce packaging. It could produce paper. It could produce plastic boxes. It could produce plastic bags, it could produce jute fabric
17:16:21 <andythenorth> or replace something with fibre crops?
17:16:25 <planetmaker> well. That'd allow for some of the cross-talk I advocate :-)
17:16:47 <planetmaker> rwsg -> fibre crops
17:16:59 <andythenorth> so no sugar refinery?
17:17:06 <andythenorth> no sugar cane railways :P
17:17:17 <andythenorth> I was wondering if sugar was a step too far
17:17:24 <planetmaker> you deleted the cane plantation anyway, did you?
17:17:33 <andythenorth> arable farm produces beet / cane
17:17:46 <planetmaker> yes. And it could instead much more likely produce fibre crops
17:17:51 <andythenorth> so sugar would have to be removed
17:18:03 <planetmaker> which... violates #1462 :-P
17:18:08 <andythenorth> no neat looking sugar refineries :P
17:18:22 <planetmaker> Not drawn. So doesn't matter :-)
17:18:26 <andythenorth> I don't like the dominance of farm -> food
17:19:00 <andythenorth> could remove fruit + veg
17:19:01 <planetmaker> I don't mind that. But when I did farms in the last game I was missing a bit incentive to move also to the industrial sector
17:19:06 <planetmaker> this could provide this incentive
17:19:24 <planetmaker> Distilleries have to stay
17:19:36 <andythenorth> can still accept grain
17:19:44 <andythenorth> fruit plantation would get canned though
17:19:56 <planetmaker> Yes. But just deleting that doesn't make it more interesting. The cross talk of industries is what is interesting
17:20:08 <planetmaker> Deleting agriculture doesn't help there a single bit
17:20:22 <andythenorth> removing fruit and veg would allow mixed farm to produce fibre crops
17:20:26 <planetmaker> Then it would be dominated by furnances, aluminum plants and similar big buildings
17:20:39 <planetmaker> which are rather boring in comparison to the agriculture things
17:21:09 <andythenorth> shame farms can only produce 2 cargo types
17:21:25 <andythenorth> an arable farm might be producing 4-5 different useful types of crop
17:21:26 <planetmaker> I like fruits a lot :-)
17:22:51 <andythenorth> cotton will be tropic only, produced by plantation
17:22:59 <andythenorth> sugar could also be produced by plantation
17:23:04 <andythenorth> arable farm could produce fibre crops
17:23:17 <andythenorth> sugar beet could be ignored in temperate etc
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17:24:08 <planetmaker> so sugar only in tropic via a plantation? Fine with me
17:24:21 <planetmaker> would allow for the beloved sugar refinery ;-)
17:24:28 <planetmaker> sub-cargo: candies
17:26:08 <fjb> We had a lot of shugar refineries here. So not only tropic. :-)
17:26:48 <V453000> fibre crops reminds me of ECS :(
17:27:09 <planetmaker> that doesn't matter. it can be called differently
17:28:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth, is fruit plantation also in the temperate? Yes afaik
17:28:45 <planetmaker> If so... then indeed the mixed farm could produce the fibre crops instead of fruit
17:28:50 <andythenorth> only climate-specific industry is cotton plantation
17:28:50 <planetmaker> and sugre would stay where it is
17:29:08 <planetmaker> question though: cargo slot availble?
17:29:25 <andythenorth> I'd consider that an awful lot of farm cargos
17:29:38 <planetmaker> then look at your mines:
17:29:41 <andythenorth> although I suppose we could argue the same about 'mine cargos'
17:29:49 <andythenorth> you thought the same :)
17:29:52 <planetmaker> copper, coal, clay, sand, gravel, bauxite
17:30:14 <planetmaker> So if at all this makes farms more interesting
17:30:42 <andythenorth> it's worth kicking at sugar a bit more
17:30:51 <andythenorth> and also, I would want a better name for fibre crops
17:31:08 <andythenorth> I know what they are now, but I can't really picture them as a player
17:31:11 <planetmaker> But what is wrong with fibre crops?
17:31:24 <planetmaker> That's the correct naming
17:31:38 <andythenorth> I know, but it sounds odd
17:31:48 <andythenorth> no child draws a picture of a 'fibre crop farm'
17:31:57 <planetmaker> there's also no such thing
17:32:06 <planetmaker> but it's one thing farms do produce
17:32:24 <andythenorth> cotton is a fibre crop
17:32:40 <planetmaker> hm, is it? Ok :-)
17:33:03 <planetmaker> So... not Cotton but fibres?
17:33:09 <planetmaker> but same cargo label?
17:34:13 <andythenorth> I don't like the name at all )
17:34:32 <andythenorth> so they also go to the plastic plant?
17:34:48 <planetmaker> To a renamed plastics plant ;-)
17:35:04 <planetmaker> But I know no good name :-(
17:35:15 <andythenorth> that's because irl it's just 'plastics plant'
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17:35:29 <andythenorth> your problem with that name is the same as my problem with fibre crops
17:35:59 <planetmaker> Not quite I think. Currently it's quite ok. But if it starts to accept fibres, then it sounds weired
17:36:10 <andythenorth> what are the most representative fibre crops?
17:36:22 <planetmaker> hemp, straw, cotton, ...
17:36:50 <andythenorth> trees I think we have covered :)
17:37:59 <andythenorth> "Organic fibres" ?
17:38:14 <planetmaker> organic fibres sounds good :-)
17:38:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "Jutestiefel" - "Sie sprechen Dialekt, das heißt gute Stiefel"
17:39:23 <andythenorth> Ok so cotton could be 'natural fibres'
17:39:30 <andythenorth> natural fibres -> textile mill
17:39:33 <planetmaker> cargo label stays
17:39:40 <andythenorth> not fibre crops?
17:40:00 <planetmaker> CTTN is already there.
17:40:17 <Eddi|zuHause> what about silk? :)
17:40:38 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Jute statt Plastik.
17:40:52 <planetmaker> :-) Ha, I'd do that as add-on! :-)
17:41:04 <planetmaker> Nicely animated giant-spiders...
17:41:21 <fjb> New desaster: Spider alert!
17:41:27 <andythenorth> I think we should use the ECS label: FICR
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17:41:46 <andythenorth> natural fibres -> textile mill -> goods
17:41:55 <andythenorth> natural fibres -> plastics plant -> goods / mnsp
17:42:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker: those two chains don't really address your 'more industrial' desire
17:42:26 <planetmaker> ah... CTTN is FIRS only. Yes, then FICR
17:42:45 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the plastics plant does
17:42:48 <Alberth> mojn moin fjb, planetmaker
17:44:11 <andythenorth> grain -> ethanol plant -> petrol
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17:44:25 <andythenorth> natural fibres -> ethanol plant -> petrol
17:44:47 <planetmaker> hm... not fibres ;-)
17:44:57 <Alberth> fjb: only the first j was replaced, otherwise I'd had to do s/j/i/g
17:45:03 <andythenorth> cellulosic ethanol from cotton?
17:45:47 <planetmaker> ah. thx. Ok. fibres, too ;-)
17:45:58 <andythenorth> depends on what we do with sugar
17:46:05 <andythenorth> re-arranging cargo chains is complex :)
17:46:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20836 /trunk/src/lang/ (12 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:46:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by KorneySan
17:46:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 4 changes by josesun
17:46:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: chuvash - 8 changes by mefisteron
17:46:14 <andythenorth> sugar -> ethanol is more valid
17:46:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
17:46:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 3 changes by IPG
17:46:17 <planetmaker> I don't want to see you cry for the sugar refinery. Nor fjb ;-)
17:46:35 <planetmaker> eh? Sugar -> ethanol? Not needed
17:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you should stop the rearranging at some point ;)
17:46:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I did
17:46:53 <andythenorth> planetmaker restarted it, against his own advice :P
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17:47:08 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently you did not, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion ;)
17:47:25 <andythenorth> I guess it takes two to tango :P
17:47:28 <planetmaker> I found it a bit sad to have no cross-talk ;-)
17:47:38 <planetmaker> I only want to slightly add something ;-)
17:47:42 <andythenorth> the main change is making cotton a more generic cargo
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17:48:02 <planetmaker> Which doesn't really hurt
17:48:21 <andythenorth> still 3 free slots
17:48:32 <fjb> Better draw the missing sprites. Delivering to coloured blobs is not that fun. :-)
17:48:36 <andythenorth> doesn't do anything to solve the food problem :P
17:48:42 <andythenorth> fjb: I've been working on it.
17:49:07 <andythenorth> there is a builders yard. Leave 'encouraging' feedback in the dev thread if you want ;)
17:49:15 <andythenorth> also I deleted some industries
17:49:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth, so... to summarize: mixed farm produces fibres
17:49:19 * fjb has no food problem, had a great meal two hours ago.
17:49:19 <andythenorth> that eliminates a few boxes
17:49:24 <planetmaker> fibres go to plastics plant
17:49:29 <planetmaker> or to textile mill
17:49:43 <planetmaker> remove fruit from mixed
17:50:05 <andythenorth> problems remaining: (1) straw? (2) acceptance of fruit & veg
17:50:18 <andythenorth> straw was a major building material )
17:50:23 <andythenorth> it's a fibre crop
17:50:31 <andythenorth> ah, but so are reeds and other crops
17:50:45 <andythenorth> well my problem was that straw should come from same place as grain
17:50:50 <andythenorth> but we can ignore that
17:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> in the 15th century probably. bricks were already fairly common in the beginning of the industrial era
17:51:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth, then you have to swap cargos more.
17:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> straw continued use in rural areas, especially for roofs
17:51:59 <planetmaker> but... not that good to do
17:52:12 <andythenorth> nah we'll just overlook the detail of straw
17:52:24 <planetmaker> but when you anyway broke compatibility already: then you can do that
17:52:43 <andythenorth> it's better to keep grain / sugar at the arable farm
17:52:49 <andythenorth> they are rotation crops
17:53:10 <andythenorth> mixed farm can grow reeds :)
17:53:24 <andythenorth> still haven't solve acceptance of fruit & veg
17:54:12 <andythenorth> anyway, there's no valid industry to process natural fibres to building materials
17:54:40 <planetmaker> re fruits: go to distillery or shop
17:54:52 <andythenorth> the builders yard doesn't process :)
17:55:31 <andythenorth> what's the incentive to deliver fruit to shop?
17:56:00 <planetmaker> why not? I want healthy inhabitants
17:56:20 <andythenorth> but if you deliver to distillery, you get more cargo...
17:56:51 <planetmaker> but that's no real argument against the shortcut route either
17:57:28 <fjb> And planetmaker wants healthy inhabitants, not drunken ones.
17:57:42 <andythenorth> and does town growth need fruit & veg?
17:57:58 <andythenorth> in what ways are fruit & veg not food? :o
17:58:04 <planetmaker> fjb, let's say: provide them with something so that they can say, "but I ate this carrot! May I now empty these bottles?"
17:58:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth, they're an intermediate thing, too. As the distillery makes it food
17:58:49 <planetmaker> you can't have a farm produce food ;-)
17:59:09 <andythenorth> are 'eggs' livestock?
17:59:45 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's fun to figure this out, but meanwhile check your forum pms
18:00:12 <andythenorth> we have a new project to host on devzone :)
18:00:55 <planetmaker> nice. Yes, definitely. I'll see to it
18:01:22 <andythenorth> seems they have a build environment already
18:03:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: are there too many sources of livestock?
18:03:49 <andythenorth> i.e. dairy farm, mixed farm, sheep farm
18:04:14 <andythenorth> 3 sources of livestock vs. 1 source of fruit & veg....makes me rethink what gets changed at mixed farm
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18:04:37 <andythenorth> mixed farm is pigs + chickens :)
18:04:44 <andythenorth> a world without bacon and eggs?
18:05:08 <planetmaker> a mixed farm needs animals. Or it isn't mixed
18:05:23 <andythenorth> names can be changed :P
18:05:42 <andythenorth> or fruit plantation could be 'market garden' and produce natural fibres also
18:05:58 <planetmaker> hm... not really IMHO
18:06:04 <andythenorth> farms offer many combination possibilities :)
18:07:16 <andythenorth> considered it :)
18:07:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth, if you think that there's too much livestock: change mixed farm livestock to milk
18:07:31 <andythenorth> considered random cargo production at many industries. always rejected though :)
18:07:46 <andythenorth> it was more that there might be too little fruit and veg?
18:08:03 <planetmaker> no. They're not that common
18:08:49 <planetmaker> no. Even though from a realism POV it might be nice, I think it's not a good idea
18:08:54 <andythenorth> so the only source of fruit and veg will be fruit plantation?
18:09:06 <andythenorth> is 'veg' even needed?
18:09:27 <andythenorth> how about Yet Another Farm Type :P
18:10:24 <planetmaker> skip fruit plantation and make it a farm ;-)
18:10:38 <planetmaker> fruit and vegetables farm :-P
18:11:00 <planetmaker> actually... no :-) I don't want further changes :-)
18:12:09 <andythenorth> 'natural fibres plantation'?
18:12:32 <andythenorth> shame the arable farm can't have 3 outputs
18:12:39 <andythenorth> or alternate different years :D
18:14:16 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I think sugar has to go from temperate
18:14:27 <andythenorth> sugar beet is quite a specific cargo
18:14:38 <andythenorth> arable farm can produce natural fibers
18:15:30 <andythenorth> sugar can be tropic only
18:15:49 <andythenorth> cotton will be available in all climates as natural fibers
18:15:53 <andythenorth> it's a fair switch
18:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with sugar beet?
18:16:55 <andythenorth> nothing wrong with it, but planetmaker is arguing for natural fibers
18:16:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the main agricultural products here, next to wheat and rapeseed
18:17:07 <andythenorth> well something has to go somewhere :P
18:17:18 <andythenorth> or we recode industries to have n outputs (3 would do)
18:17:55 <andythenorth> so forest also produces natural fibres?
18:18:02 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, then you just made the case for oil seeds instead of fibre crops ;-)
18:18:15 <andythenorth> and papermill acceptance should be natural fibre instead of wood?
18:18:46 * fjb wants ol seeds and yellow opengfx fields. :-)
18:19:05 <planetmaker> fjb, draw them. I'll be happy about it! :-)
18:19:32 <andythenorth> can't we just have 'crops' ?
18:19:50 <andythenorth> it would be way simpler
18:19:55 <planetmaker> same as 'stuff dug out of earth'?
18:20:18 <andythenorth> farms produce: 'crops', 'livestock', 'milk', 'wool'
18:20:19 <planetmaker> one mining cargo. one farm cargo.
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18:21:06 * planetmaker doesn't want to overthrow everything
18:21:56 <andythenorth> I am serious about crops
18:22:10 <andythenorth> we have livestock, not sheep, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses
18:22:35 <fjb> We nedd horses to attract more girls to the game.
18:23:32 <andythenorth> also 'crops' covers the issue that most farms grow several crop types in rotation to preserve fertile soil
18:24:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what do you think?
18:24:49 <planetmaker> would make it quite boring :-)
18:24:53 <planetmaker> crops to the distillery
18:24:57 <planetmaker> crops to the supermarket
18:25:02 <planetmaker> crops to the textile plant
18:25:12 <planetmaker> crops to the <whatever>
18:25:28 <andythenorth> but arguing grain / oil seeds / fibers / sugar is also a bit unsolvable
18:25:35 <andythenorth> unless we add more farm types
18:25:41 <planetmaker> it would cut 1/3 of the agriculture by what it feels like
18:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> make the output cargo random each year ;)
18:26:27 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> andythenorth, so... to summarize: mixed farm produces fibres
18:26:27 <planetmaker> * fjb has no food problem, had a great meal two hours ago.
18:26:27 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> that eliminates a few boxes
18:26:27 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> fibres go to plastics plant
18:26:27 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> or to textile mill
18:26:28 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> yup
18:26:30 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> that's all ;-)
18:26:32 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> remove fruit from mixed
18:26:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: not possible :P
18:26:51 <planetmaker> I really see no need for further changes
18:27:04 <andythenorth> output cargos can't be changed, there is no cb, action 0 prop only
18:27:56 <andythenorth> so leave sugar in temperate / arctic, no removal
18:28:02 <andythenorth> and forget oil seeds :P
18:29:18 <andythenorth> is wool a type of natural fibre?
18:29:43 <V453000> can I have a feature request for FIRS please?
18:29:57 <V453000> I _NEED_ my headquarters to accept beer
18:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> random fact: this year, during harvest season it rained a lot, so the wheat stayed on the fields way too long, so it can only be used as animal food. but due to russia (3rd biggest wheat exporter) cancelling all exports, the wheat price drastically increased, so even the "bad" wheat is worth more than the "good" wheat in usual years
18:30:56 <Alberth> unfortunately, headquarters is not an industry :p
18:31:30 <V453000> there could be HQ as an industry :p
18:31:41 <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: and they cancelled the exports because on the fires
18:32:37 <Alberth> I would expect that HQs are already available in NewGRF, in that case you should be able to make such a HQ
18:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> germany is one of the largest wheat importers
18:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> like 80% of the wheat is imported
18:33:47 <Alberth> in the japanese economy :)
18:34:14 <Alberth> coffee was recently suggested by RB iirc
18:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but, what makes coffee any different from any other cargo?
18:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what about Tobacco then?
18:35:12 <Alberth> Rubidium: we had a discussion about the meaning of shops selling coffee
18:35:14 <planetmaker> kinda reminds me of colonization.
18:35:30 <Rubidium> coffee is, like beer, yucky
18:35:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you can easily fill all 32 cargo slots with agricultural goods
18:35:42 <andythenorth> maybe we should :P
18:36:11 <andythenorth> planetmaker: consolidate wool, or use the name 'vegetable fibres' ?
18:36:35 <andythenorth> plant fibres is nice
18:36:38 <planetmaker> or straw is hard to justify ;-)
18:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i loved colonization, but the remake is ... boring
18:36:53 <V453000> cow shit could be nice too ^_^
18:36:59 <Alberth> take plant fibres to a plant... hmm :)
18:37:20 <planetmaker> Alberth, to a plastics plant :-P
18:37:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and the modding community isn't as big as for plain civ4, so that part is not very developed either
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18:38:35 <planetmaker> yes, unfortunately
18:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone tried civ5 yet?
18:42:30 <Terkhen> I'll wait until it gets cheap
18:43:17 * andythenorth only plays ottd...and dope wars
18:43:49 * V453000 plays ottd ... and ottd :p
18:44:17 * Alberth plays 'hacking in source code' mostly :)
18:44:18 * Eddi|zuHause didn't play ottd in quite a while
18:44:45 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: i tried the demo for 5 minutes last night, and noticed a positive change: the game doesn't minimize itself if it loses focus, so you can use apps on the other screen while running fullscreen civ on the other.
18:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that point is irrelevant when playing in wine ;)
18:45:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but before i can even think about trying civ5, i need a new computer
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19:05:40 <__ln__> those are sold in some places
19:06:49 <Terkhen> I don't think that a game like civ should require a lot of advanced graphics... they put them in anyways, right?
19:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: civ4 is already pretty much at the limit of my computing capabilities
19:08:05 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of stuff is in python, so not exactly performance friendly
19:08:51 <Terkhen> it already has too much graphics IMO; the civ leader screen always lagged my computer a lot
19:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you can replace those by static images ;)
19:10:21 <Terkhen> in fact, I dropped almost everything to minimum
19:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't have that many problems with the graphics
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19:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> troubles starts with larger than "standard" maps
19:24:52 * dihedral listens to "Friday Afternoon Buzz" :-)
19:47:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20837 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4132]: Set height of industry directory to 5 lines like other lists.
19:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> another person craving for it to be friday :p
19:57:14 <Rubidium> what's so fun about friday?
19:57:23 <Rubidium> you still have to work on it
19:59:05 <dihedral> Belugas, recognizes the song :-)
20:02:55 <andythenorth> he's probably what, 12?
20:03:02 <andythenorth> I would have been about the same
20:03:50 <andythenorth> version numbers, nightlies, urls you can't click....all very confusing :)
20:04:49 <frosch123> oh, planetmaker is here. so i can pad him directly with fs#4135
20:05:26 <planetmaker> that's the multiline thing?
20:12:40 <planetmaker> I cannot even reproduce it myself
20:15:32 <andythenorth> which is better: Grain Mill or Flour Mill?
20:15:35 <andythenorth> grain in -> food out
20:16:27 <andythenorth> other kinds of mills
20:16:31 <andythenorth> e.g. Textile Mill
20:16:33 <planetmaker> frosch123, I guess I should request closure as either 'unreproducable' or 'invalid'
20:16:46 <planetmaker> hm... languages :-P
20:16:52 <planetmaker> Not in German ;-)
20:17:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say "grain mill"
20:18:08 <planetmaker> nice. The dictionary knows both, flour mill and corn mill and grain mill and...
20:18:34 <andythenorth> "It's all grist to the mill"
20:19:56 * planetmaker wonders whether Alberth now leaves, too ;-)
20:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> "The horse that is next the mill, carries all the grist." <-- does that mean anything close to "Wer zuerst kommt, mahlt zuerst"?
20:20:30 <planetmaker> :-) good night then, too.
20:20:43 <andythenorth> Terkhen is not frosch speed
20:20:58 <planetmaker> And that sounds quite good...
20:21:06 <planetmaker> ... so ... good night :-)
20:21:16 <Alberth> Wolf is also pretty fast usually
20:21:16 <SmatZ> good night, planetmaker
20:25:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm still not entirely sure what it actually means...
20:26:23 <uros> hey .. if i have two waypoints and three stations between them .. can i set the route just prom point A to B ..or i have to set it point A - station 1 - s2 - s3 - point 2 .. is there any difference ?
20:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause> uros: you don't have to set the waypoints.
20:27:37 <andythenorth> seems grist is also a unix term
20:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> uros: there are differences, but they are unimportant if your trains don't get lost or something...
20:28:29 <uros> aha ... so is the same if i set the route to the last point .. train will stop and load/unload at stations .. .i don't have to define all stations on the route
20:28:54 <SmatZ> uros: if you set your order to be "non-stop", trains won't stop in intermediate stations
20:29:12 <SmatZ> so don't set it "non-stop"
20:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> uros: with stations it's slightly different, because trains will try to go around stations they don't have as order.
20:48:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
20:55:14 <SmatZ> silly flickr stealing my rmb
20:57:07 <SmatZ> the fun is in "Kürze", right?
20:58:17 <fjb> It translates to something like: A modern information system will be coming soon. Soon is relative.
20:59:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20838 /trunk/src/core/bitmath_func.hpp: -Fix [FS#4136]: Cast '1' in bitmath functions to width of result before shifting.
20:59:56 <fjb> It would have been better to just switch the displays off as long as they don't display anything useful.
21:00:21 <dihedral> just in case someone might be interested in competition ^^
21:01:11 <dihedral> SpComb it's about the distribution between stations :-P
21:01:16 <Alberth> dihedral: I hope you have more luck than me and RB
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21:02:36 <dihedral> SpComb, thanks though - i have updated the thread title :-P
21:03:45 <dihedral> anyway - time for bed now ^^
21:03:47 <Alberth> fjb: one of the devs, also mentioned in that post
21:04:08 <dihedral> Alberth, that is too hard to find for some
21:04:33 <Alberth> those somes then don't deserve to know :)
21:04:50 <dihedral> bit like an easter egg hunt then :-P
21:05:02 <dihedral> "if you cannot find 'em, you aint gettin any!"
21:05:40 <SmatZ> I have setup a very basic server to test the patch in FS 3637 <== the link is broken
21:05:57 <SpComb> don't type URLs by hand
21:06:41 <dihedral> when one considers using the mouse to go to another tab and highlight the url, move back and paste to bee too much work
21:07:13 <SpComb> Ctrl+tab,l,c,shift+tab,v
21:07:26 <dihedral> SpComb, if the tabs are next to eachother yes
21:08:20 <dihedral> it will jump to 2 then to 7
21:08:29 <SpComb> Ctrl-w helps with that
21:08:49 <dihedral> actually it's somewhere between 30 and 50 :-D
21:08:57 <SpComb> SmatZ: that tends to remember the stuff
21:09:10 <dihedral> not of the stupid download window is open
21:12:16 <dihedral> ini: invalid setting value 'yes' for 'gui.keep_all_autosave' <- grrr
21:16:33 <dihedral> fjb: it needs testing!
21:16:53 *** LaSeandrePhone has quit IRC
21:16:56 <dihedral> anyways - good night
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21:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "saw 7" <-- wtf? seeing one of these was too much already...
21:24:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i saw saw one :p
21:25:13 <Eddi|zuHause> my friends dragged me into the cinema without really telling me what it was about...
21:26:20 * fjb sab about 2 minutes of one on tv. That was enough to know.
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