IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-09-20
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00:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: IMHO, the back of a one way signal should behave exactly like end of line.
00:02:58 <Aali> yes and it works fine if there is no other way to go
00:04:26 <Aali> but with one track in each direction trains tend to choose the wrong way and end up bouncing forever
00:04:27 <glx> you should not have lost trains
00:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: the train just shouldn't get lost in the first place
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00:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: if the train is lost, that means there is no right way
00:05:06 <Aali> yeah, I'm sure you've never had a train get lost on you
00:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: yes, i did, that's why it throws a message to alert the player to take action
00:06:29 <Aali> I just can't see why this behaviour was changed in the first place
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00:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a flyspray task. but i can't be bothered to look it up
00:07:50 <Aali> there are two of them, the original one asking for the change and a new one asking for a revert
00:08:19 <Aali> so, I guess we'll see what happens
00:08:23 <ccfreak2k> A bug and an anti-bug?
00:08:27 <ccfreak2k> Don't get them too close together.
00:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the one i meant involved a depot at the "wrong" end of the station
00:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> which was based on a ncommon ewbie-error
00:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> common newbie error
00:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: the point is, that "lost trains" are not something where you can do any sane estimate what might be what the user considers "right"
00:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever you do, it will break for half of the people
00:11:56 <Aali> I agree, so why was a change made in the first place?
00:12:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so the only thing you can do is to come up with a situation where the trains are NOT lost, but still behave wrongly
00:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise this isn't worth discussing
00:13:33 <Aali> oh its not worth discussing, I'm just ranting
00:13:51 <Aali> I want the record to show that I oppose this change :)
00:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the reaons why things were done are in the commit messages and the flyspray tasks
00:24:45 <Aali> hmm, the original bug was solved in a bit of a weird way
00:26:14 <Aali> the fix allows the train in question to reserve a path to a one-way PBS just so it can stop and reverse at a station before reaching the signal
00:26:38 <Aali> it seems to me the fix should have been to make the train aware of the fact that it can do that instead
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04:35:25 <LaSeandre> good morning to yoooou, SmatZ!
04:35:35 <LaSeandre> although I'm leaving now.
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07:08:21 <V453000> Eddi | zuHause: well that is awesome but from gameplay point of view it does nothing but break the game
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07:21:38 <TheUros> i have the latest openttd .. is there a limit how much can city growth ? .. i mean radius limit ?
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10:35:36 <TheUros> i have the latest openttd .. is there a limit how much can city growth ? .. i mean radius limit ?
10:35:55 <V453000> why the hell would you need a large city
10:36:18 <V453000> but if there is any limit, it is so large that it will suffice you for a looong time :p
10:36:39 <TheUros> why i need a large city ... well . i want just one large city
10:37:22 <V453000> there is no problem in growing a city all over 256x256
10:37:49 <V453000> I believe that will be enough :)
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10:38:42 <TheUros> yep .. more than enought
10:39:53 <TheUros> how long train stations you usually build ? i allways use 7 tiles long stations
10:39:54 <V453000> oh and I recommend to turn off the automatic building of roads for towns
10:40:10 <V453000> so you can control where the roads go, the cities screw up ;)
10:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of long road tunnels tend to help growing a city over a large area
10:40:37 <V453000> I use mostly 3 tiles, it is probably the most all-over versatile and good choice imo
10:40:59 <planetmaker> TheUros: there's an implicit limit in the town growth code
10:41:26 <planetmaker> : city action can mean 'new house' or replace house. So in the limit expansion gets more and more unlikely
10:42:30 <TheUros> just 3 tiles ?? .. maybe for small passengers trains .. but for cargo you need at least 7 tiles long stations ?? or no
10:43:02 <Eddi|zuHause> for short cargo trips i occasionally use 2 tiles
10:43:14 <Eddi|zuHause> especially in feeder systems
10:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause> long distance maybe 8 or 10 tiles
10:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i used 15 tiles once
10:54:14 <V453000> distance doesnt really matter, throughput does :)
10:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a tricky balance there
10:59:45 <Eddi|zuHause> long trains tend to be slower, and block the junctions longer
11:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> so it means the non-blocking junctions need to get more complicated
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11:13:57 <andythenorth> one piece flow :P
11:38:34 <dihedral> how's your patch coming along
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12:06:41 <dihedral> got to work to find a corupted hard disk in my computer... no mote booty, nono rescue....
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12:07:07 <dihedral> yay for not having a raid 1 setup
12:15:11 <planetmaker> raid won't help you if the machine catches fire ;-)
12:16:00 <Rubidium> backups won't help when they're in a fire safe in the same building that's on fire :)
12:16:31 <Noldo> the most common thing raid doesn't protect against is user error
12:17:02 <heffer> planetmaker: if you delete a file on a raid it's gone
12:17:08 <heffer> it's not if you have a real backup
12:17:25 <heffer> because it's a. on the raid and b. in the backup media
12:18:55 <dihedral> in this case raid would have saved a lot of wasted time
12:21:52 <planetmaker> heffer, sure; I wanted to reference the fire proof sfe, though ;-)
12:27:52 <planetmaker> I think I even know where you could get one for free. Provided you pick it up
12:28:07 <planetmaker> The size is approx. 4 cubic meter ;-)
12:28:12 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
12:28:16 <planetmaker> The weight... dunno... several tons
12:28:52 <planetmaker> but maybe they already disposed of it...
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12:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't _really_ look like fibonacci...
12:50:19 * avdg hears the word photoshop
12:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause> YES. certainly photoshopped. no way the arrows and the caption were really there.
12:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't cast proper shadows!
12:53:10 <__ln__> avdg: wrong, you hear the *trademark* Photoshop®
12:53:57 <__ln__> besides pigeons would be scared of big arrows hanging over them and would fly away
13:00:25 <planetmaker> hm... adding epoxy to the places pigeos usually land, eh? ;-)
13:05:24 <dihedral> i have quick glue, with an activator for my rc plane models
13:05:41 <planetmaker> though I always wanted to combine a microwave oven and a satellite dish to a remote microwave ;-)
13:05:56 <dihedral> a drop of glue on the back of the fly makes it fly away, spraying the fly while it's flying makes it "land" :-D
13:06:10 <planetmaker> your neighbour is too loud? Just use it on his stereo ;-)
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13:17:31 <Belugas> good to be myself again
13:18:25 <dihedral> welcome back Belugas ;-)
13:19:10 <Belugas> was not gone that lng ;) but thanks anyway
13:27:34 <dihedral> <Belugas> good to be myself again <- was referring to that
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13:51:27 * Belugas thinks about buying a 8gb sd card. current one is too small for a decent set of songs.
13:53:41 <dihedral> Belugas, get one with 20MB/s write speed :-)
13:53:57 <dihedral> ok, be fair - take one with 12MB/s
13:54:46 <Belugas> in terms of class, what would those be?
13:54:56 <Belugas> i do't need a speedy one
13:55:00 <Rubidium> why bother about writing speed?
13:55:19 <Belugas> even my camera would bnot be able to take advantage of a fast one
13:55:26 <Rubidium> you just start copying your song to it and go to bed. In the morning it'll likely be done
13:55:29 <Belugas> none, Rubidium, absolutely none
13:56:06 <Rubidium> at least, I'd assume it's not as slow as the internet used to be... oh the times where downloading the kernel's source package took 2 hours
13:56:52 <Rubidium> now we're complaining if it isn't down within like a minute
13:58:03 * Belugas remembers browsing with a 2400 modem
13:58:30 <Belugas> downloading one song took the whole night
13:58:57 <Rubidium> 14k4 was the slowest modem I've ever used
13:59:27 <Rubidium> although... I know I've "worked" with some hardware that used 300 baud (yay ATMs)
13:59:47 <Rubidium> though the 2 hours was IIRC with a 64k ISDN line
14:00:46 * avdg has sometimes a connection of 28kbps
14:01:48 <avdg> still fast enough to play openttd minus loading
14:01:52 <Rubidium> the only thing I like about modems is the first 30 seconds
14:02:20 <SmatZ> avdg: to play online? syncing that several-minutes-long download will probably cause connection lost
14:02:53 <avdg> there was a time where my download stopped after 3 sec
14:05:11 <Belugas> 14k4 was already a good speed :)
14:06:03 <Belugas> to be fair, i'd have to confess I had that 2400 modem for less than a week
14:06:20 <Belugas> we've upgraded to the state-of-the-art 9600 one
14:06:26 <Belugas> wow... blazing fast..!
14:08:53 <dihedral> in average you'll hit a 3MB/s writing speed
14:09:11 <dihedral> and there are cameras that can make use of faster writing speeds
14:10:15 <dihedral> take pictures at 8fps and you can do something like 16 in one batch, then you'll have to wait for the camera to finish writing the data to the card ... 3MB/s will take quite some time ^^
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14:32:19 <Belugas> in raw, i can only do 1.5fps
14:32:33 <Belugas> in jpg, i've got a big 3fps
14:33:01 <Belugas> until i've get my hands on Canon 7d, i'll keep low profile low cost sd cards :)
14:33:17 <Belugas> and 7d deals with compact flash
14:34:02 <Belugas> and that's such a fantastic machine, that 7d... i'm jsut drooling every tiume i look at the specs or even have one on my hands att he nearest camera shop
14:38:12 <Belugas> dihedral: what are you talking about? I can't see any nikon 7d
14:38:23 <Belugas> have you mixed nikon with canon???
14:39:20 <dihedral> ops - sorry - got 2 friends confused :-D
14:41:11 <planetmaker> seriously considering 7D, Belugas ? :-)
14:44:41 <Belugas> all the advantages it has?
14:45:18 <Belugas> i mean... i doubt i could seriously use it to its full potential
14:45:25 <Belugas> but... hey.. waht a piece!
14:45:35 <Belugas> wirelss flash built in support
14:46:08 <Belugas> 8fps, in raw and else
14:46:28 <Belugas> i don't care about the video
14:46:37 <Belugas> i downladed the manual
14:46:50 <Belugas> but so good to read :)
14:49:53 <Belugas> would you not, planetmaker?
14:50:27 <Belugas> but to be honest, i know my son will use my 1000D at one point. So i must be ready to have a new one by then ;)
14:50:51 <planetmaker> Belugas, surely I would :-)
14:55:38 <dihedral> Belugas, a friend of mine bought it (iirc)
14:56:18 <Belugas> what were his impressions?
14:56:27 <Belugas> apart the weight, of course ;)
15:00:20 <andythenorth> v. expensive, but very awesome
15:02:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you haven't seen the price tag on the Canon EOS 7D then ;-)
15:03:16 <andythenorth> I used to have 3 Olympus 35mm SLRs and a full range of prime lenses from 24mm-500mm for the price of one Pen 2 :P
15:10:34 <Belugas> andythenorth, if i recall, you cannot use your regular olympus lens on that unit, it's 4/3,micro that is.
15:10:43 <Belugas> plus, i have to admit, i NEED the view finder
15:11:00 <Belugas> working wht the LCD is not really comfy, especially outside
15:11:10 <Belugas> but it all depends on what your doing, i agree
15:11:29 <Belugas> and i do agree it looks like a nice machine
15:11:50 <andythenorth> Belugas: the EP2 comes with an awesome electronic viewfinder
15:12:14 <andythenorth> it's a bit weird, converting photons to electrons, then back again when a mirror would do just as well, but it works
15:12:32 <andythenorth> I can use OM lenses, but only with a really expensive adapter
15:12:38 <andythenorth> the default lens is awesome
15:13:48 <Belugas> yeah, everything comes with a price :S
15:14:40 <Belugas> some Canon have a Live View mode, which is the same as the feature you describe. I have sucg a monde on my 1000D. Honestly, I only use it when i';m composing stuff with the tripod
15:15:11 <Belugas> maybe it's the stuff they used to bult it, but i don't really like the reflections and all
15:15:33 <andythenorth> the one I mean is an eyepiece
15:17:28 <Belugas> now that is awesome :D
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15:35:24 <andythenorth> it's about the same size and similar form factor
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15:41:27 <Belugas> quite good reasons :)
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16:57:54 <Belugas> ho.. Hello frosch123 :)
16:58:16 <Belugas> yeah, a shame, another fork which did not last long
16:58:46 <Belugas> funny to see the guy is now active in the NoAI section
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16:59:21 <frosch123> hello belugas btw :)
17:00:50 <frosch123> what? avertising simutrans? :p
17:01:22 <Amis> I would like to ask about game mechanics, more specific: industry production changes. I have a feeling wiki does not tell me everything.
17:01:52 <Amis> It seems that the number of same industries near eachother affect production change in a negative way. Is that right?
17:02:16 <frosch123> for default industries? certainly not :)
17:02:36 <planetmaker> I'm not aware of newgrf industries with that behaviour either
17:02:46 <Belugas> frosch123: nope. The guy wanted to write a fork of Ottd, and his list of features has been quite.. laughable
17:03:14 <Belugas> Amis, i cna confirm. unless you have solid ground to your saying, tough
17:03:31 <Amis> They why each time fund a few, for example fruit plantations and I have excellent service (85-95%) they all drop in production
17:03:46 <Lakie> A lot of 'patches' for OpenTTD are quite ambitious Belugas...
17:04:21 <Belugas> speaking of ambitions, i'm going outside shooting the photo of the century now...
17:04:51 <Lakie> Well, make it a good photo anyways? :)
17:05:39 <Lakie> (Probably better pharsed as hope you get a nice photo anyway).
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17:10:29 <Nite> any way to convert many or all semaphores to "normal" siganls fast ??
17:10:55 <Chris_Booth> delete old signals and then ctrl drang new ones
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17:11:05 <Chris_Booth> or just keep semaphore
17:11:43 <Nite> well i luckily never use semaphores ...
17:12:02 <Nite> but another one tapped into that trap ;)
17:12:09 <frosch123> there is a signal conversion button in the signal gui
17:12:20 <frosch123> that way you do not need to select the position and orientation when converting
17:12:56 <frosch123> for the next game it is useful to configure semaphores to only appear before 1492 :p
17:12:57 <Nite> woudl be neat if you could squaredrag with the signalconvert tool
17:13:03 <Chris_Booth> frosch123: that only doesn 1 singla at a time though?
17:13:46 <Nite> (i have semaphores off - for me its all about readability)
17:14:28 <Nite> guess hter are 100 of thousands of signals often in games
17:17:22 <Nite> ok i see squaredrag is not that easy because you dont only replace semaphore to normal, but also the type
17:17:57 <Chris_Booth> yes you would need to have a type check
17:18:17 <Nite> but isnt there som ctrl + alt + caps + click kind of method ?
17:18:46 <Chris_Booth> I dont know never used it myself. I always start with Lights not semaphores
17:19:30 <Nite> yeh its not so serious problem
17:19:51 <Chris_Booth> TBH when are you going to use it?
17:19:56 <Nite> a super readable also from behind signals newgrf woudl be nice though
17:20:02 <Chris_Booth> semaphores are just as good as lights
17:20:22 <Nite> i did not use it but another player - who is somewhat into eyecandy
17:20:29 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx_
17:20:53 <Chris_Booth> semaphores are more readable IMO than lights but lights look nicer
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17:47:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20830 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
17:47:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:47:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by Wowanxm
17:47:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: marathi - 186 changes by jcravi
17:47:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 5 changes by Terkhen
17:47:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: urdu - 21 changes by thastig
17:48:02 <planetmaker> <frosch123> for the next game it is useful to configure semaphores to only appear before 1492 :p <-- hehehe :-) I guess I have such introduction date
17:48:35 <frosch123> i always mention 1492 in this context :p
17:50:16 <Chris_Booth> 1492? that seems early to start openttd
17:50:40 <planetmaker> that's fine, if you start on a water map with sailing boats :-)
17:50:48 <planetmaker> OpenTTD - hanse theme :-)
17:50:58 <planetmaker> that indeed *might* be interesting
17:51:19 <Chris_Booth> sailing boats horses and mules
17:51:32 <planetmaker> midieval transport...
17:51:42 <planetmaker> camels replace horses in desert...
17:51:52 <planetmaker> you have oxes, cows, horses....
17:51:58 <planetmaker> some wagons to span them...
17:52:04 <planetmaker> that *might* be very interesting
17:52:24 <frosch123> litters instead of busses?
17:55:22 <Belugas> Lakie, not a single one taken. I guess I'm not in the mood or something
17:57:27 <Lakie> Thats a shame, Belugas. :(
17:58:18 <planetmaker> that's about ok :-)
17:58:25 <fjb> That old ship grf has the first ship in 1701.
17:58:27 <Belugas> well.. given that downtown is under heavy construction, i would say it's pretty normal...
17:58:47 <X-2> Nice screenshot Terkhen :P
18:00:16 <dihedral> is that too much water or too little land :-P
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18:00:57 <Terkhen> for me it is already too much water, I'm just wondering if someone will complain because he can't get more than 80% water
18:02:16 <dihedral> people can complain about everything
18:03:02 <planetmaker> haha @ Terkhen :-)
18:03:13 <planetmaker> Terkhen, it'd actually make sense to play such map :-)
18:03:18 <planetmaker> I'd definitely give it a try
18:03:34 <Terkhen> hm, let me make a screenshot with 90%
18:03:54 <Lakie> Would that not be bordering unplayable?
18:03:55 <frosch123> make it more rough and with less variation to get more islands?
18:04:07 <__ln__> I would complain for anything below 130% of water.
18:04:30 <Chris_Booth> __ln__: can the water be in water towers?
18:04:50 <Terkhen> Lakie: I think so, that's why I'm currently limiting the patch at the amount shown at the screenshot
18:05:11 <Chris_Booth> cool then i can float water towers in the sea
18:05:27 <Terkhen> but I guess the player should be able to do whatever he wants, even if the results are unplayable
18:05:31 <Chris_Booth> and still have 35$ land
18:06:24 <planetmaker> Terkhen, "unplayable" is anyway a relative term. Everyone might define it differently
18:07:56 <__ln__> if you had 100% water with two oil platforms, couldn't you establish a profitable passenger route between them?
18:08:56 <planetmaker> __ln__, you won't have such map. A map needs at least one town
18:09:19 <planetmaker> still... I wonder how small it can be ;-)
18:09:30 <__ln__> ok, are underwater towns on the roadmap already?
18:09:34 <planetmaker> 1 complete tile and its shore?
18:11:02 <planetmaker> I thought so, too... but you'd need to modify houses
18:11:17 <planetmaker> indeed, Terkhen :-)
18:12:19 <fjb> Nice, but isn't ttd a railway game? *hides*
18:13:06 <Terkhen> you can build tiny networks at each one of the tiny islands
18:13:12 <__ln__> fjb: It's a railway game which only lacks the ability to carry trains on ferries.
18:13:44 <avdg> trains are just the best way to create profit
18:13:51 <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: you need 1 town but that town doesnt need people
18:14:10 <Chris_Booth> 0 pop town counts
18:14:23 <Chris_Booth> then 2 oil platforms = playable
18:17:16 <Belugas> mmmh... town on piles project comes back to mind
18:17:47 <fjb> And exploding oil platform desaster.
18:17:53 <avdg> does it had stations on the water?
18:18:20 <avdg> building a dock requires land
18:22:57 <Belugas> if you are building a dock, yes it will reauire land. if you are building a seaport, no it does not
18:23:09 <Belugas> imagination, people, imagination...
18:23:34 <andythenorth> only after 1960 or so :P
18:23:47 <andythenorth> can you distant join a train station to an oil rig?
18:26:01 <V453000> im gonna buy myself a lego instead of openttd :D
18:27:50 <olleman> any recommended newgrf airports?
18:29:05 <frosch123> i guess there is only one grf (or it there one at all?)
18:29:21 <andythenorth> there is a test grf somewhere?
18:29:39 <andythenorth> dunno if there are any 'real' ones
18:29:57 <olleman> I suppose the code isn't mature enough?
18:34:36 <Belugas> i suppose more that it's not available ingame, actually. Unless you have compiled your own one :)
18:34:52 <Belugas> trunk moves so fast these days ...
18:48:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20831 /trunk/src/ (genworld_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Add: Show selected number of towns in the map generation window when using a custom amount.
18:56:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20832 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Allow to select a custom percentage of water in the map generation window (based on patch by CommanderZ).
18:59:04 <Terkhen> don't forget to translate :)
19:02:53 <planetmaker> Terkhen: /Users/ingo/ottd/trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: In member function ‘virtual void GenerateLandscapeWindow::OnDropdownSelect(int, int)’:
19:02:55 <planetmaker> /Users/ingo/ottd/trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp:762: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned integer expressions
19:03:59 <Terkhen> hm, too much copypaste
19:07:30 <fjb> Already 1717 and I'm still not rich...
19:09:41 <Terkhen> wait, I caused another in tgp :P
19:11:02 <Rubidium> fjb: it's 2010 and I'm not rich either...
19:13:06 <planetmaker> all fine, Terkhen :-)
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19:15:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20833 /trunk/src/ (genworld.h tgp.cpp): -Fix (r20832): Remove a warning.
19:19:26 <planetmaker> nice thing, Terkhen :-) Finally it's easy to create atoll-like scenarios :-)
19:19:49 <planetmaker> some map type which makes for nice challenges :-)
19:20:10 <Aali> yay, I've long wanted this feature too
19:20:53 <glx> planetmaker: not hard if you just raise land :)
19:21:20 <planetmaker> glx: it is. Because you have to acutally rise the land. Now I just random generate it.
19:21:27 <planetmaker> and adjust a few places
19:21:55 <glx> I mean raise land to join atolls ;)
19:23:01 <Terkhen> small things like this always manage to keep me from playing
19:23:25 <Terkhen> whenever I start a game, I think of something mising or that I'd like to try
19:24:35 <andythenorth> I haven't played a game in ages
19:24:38 <planetmaker> Terkhen: I guess that's one of the reasons I mostly play online...
19:24:42 <andythenorth> I keep thinking of new things I need to implement :P
19:24:58 <andythenorth> I have no idea if current FIRS is any good :|
19:25:04 <planetmaker> I can play a little there, others might carry one... and it's fine when I get distracted ;-)
19:25:05 <Terkhen> then again, sometimes I also find bugs
19:25:23 <andythenorth> and I know I'm going to keep breaking savegames so I don't invest in a new game :(
19:25:25 <planetmaker> andythenorth: we just play a FIRS 0.3 on our stable
19:25:29 <Aali> alot less insane than ECS but still alot more interesting than default industries
19:25:29 <planetmaker> It's quite fun :-)
19:25:46 <andythenorth> also, there's so much left to do, I don't have time to actually play :P
19:25:47 <Terkhen> I've played online only a few times with friends, mostly I play alone
19:25:50 <V453000> but imo the latest additions are going a bit too far :)
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19:26:07 <V453000> we will see what comes out of it ;)
19:26:16 <andythenorth> V453000: give feedback in the dev thread
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19:28:06 <V453000> one of the things I really liked was the way how it works quite precisely ... from the united industry starting production, through the multiple cargoes delivered -> multiple times more output, to the way how the engineering supplies seem to work
19:28:27 <V453000> currently the supplies seem to work quite oddly :) but I havent tested that much
19:28:31 <planetmaker> yep, that's great
19:29:02 <V453000> I also liked the amount of industries before, but that is just me and taking time before I adjust ;) I havent played the latest version yet
19:29:31 <V453000> but what I wanted to say ...
19:29:54 <V453000> woulnt it be more "interesting" to make engineering supplies consumed by primaries over time?
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19:30:10 <V453000> now it doesnt really matter how much you make, only how often you deliver
19:30:31 <andythenorth> I've thought about it
19:30:46 <andythenorth> unless players want to micromanage routes every month, the gameplay effect will be identical to now
19:30:56 <V453000> it is in my opinion better because you can control which industry grows better
19:31:10 <andythenorth> this is how ECS does it?
19:31:16 <V453000> well players usually do timetable it monthly
19:31:26 <V453000> I think yes, ECS probably does it that way
19:31:32 <V453000> but well .. I hate ECS tbh :p
19:32:03 <Aali> I would like to see a system where the same amount of supplies generate the same amount of primary goods, no matter where and when you deliver it
19:32:07 <planetmaker> actually... I consider it a bit of a challange to really deliver by the month
19:32:11 <Aali> but maybe thats just a fantasy of mine
19:32:33 <andythenorth> FIRS will stay with monthly for the forseeable future
19:32:41 <V453000> pm: yea it could maybe be a setting through parameters?
19:32:43 <planetmaker> otherwise it means to introduce stockpiles... something I don't like ;-)
19:32:48 <frosch123> somewhen we discussing something like: all supplies are stockpiled. the more there are stockpiles the more is produced. and every month 10% of the stockpile is consumed
19:32:57 <planetmaker> V453000: you can set anything by parameter. But who programmes it
19:33:28 <andythenorth> "It's not realistic" :P
19:33:37 <V453000> fuck realistic, this is a game ;)
19:33:39 <planetmaker> frosch123: the limit is 65k or so for a stockpile w/o limit?
19:33:47 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it might be a good idea, though
19:33:54 <andythenorth> yeah, I don't hate it
19:33:55 <frosch123> something like that, yes
19:33:59 <andythenorth> I just don't find it interesting
19:34:09 <andythenorth> it just makes primary industry a stockpiling secondary industry
19:34:21 <andythenorth> means a coal mine is just like a PBI factory
19:34:24 <V453000> well if an industry growing more and more would consume more and more supplies it could be still quite appealing I think
19:34:42 <andythenorth> output != input for primary industry
19:34:49 <andythenorth> our whole civilisation is built on that
19:34:58 <V453000> because at one point you wouldnt be able to deliver enough supplies or the industry would be maxed :)
19:35:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth: or something like quadratic efficiency of supplies: 1: 1% increase chance, 2: 2:, 4: 3%:, 8: 4%, 16: 5%, 32: 6% etc pp
19:36:01 <andythenorth> sounds like ECS :)
19:36:20 <planetmaker> the increase behaviour?
19:36:33 <planetmaker> I don't want to change the mechanism
19:36:43 <planetmaker> Just the efficiency
19:36:45 <andythenorth> just the probability?
19:36:58 <planetmaker> probability = f(#supplies)
19:37:06 <andythenorth> would it need to be explained to players in the industry window?
19:37:35 <planetmaker> but a generic explanation suffices:
19:37:47 <planetmaker> industries need supplies to increase their production.
19:37:56 <andythenorth> "More supplies = greater chance of increase"
19:38:01 <planetmaker> More supplies will help more
19:38:23 <planetmaker> But not linearlily or so
19:38:33 <andythenorth> it would make for interesting strategy
19:38:46 <andythenorth> if the 'primary production never decreases' parameter is enabled....
19:39:08 <andythenorth> it would then make sense to dump *all* supplies on the map into one primary to max production
19:39:15 <andythenorth> then when it is maxed, move on to the next
19:39:36 <planetmaker> though you'd be faster to supply all linearily probably
19:39:52 <planetmaker> as the overall gain per unit time would be bigger
19:39:54 <andythenorth> depends on how f(supplies) is calculated
19:39:57 <Aali> could the "interval" between supply checks be increased to be longer than one month in a simple fashion?
19:40:11 <andythenorth> what are you thinking
19:40:25 <Aali> so you only need to deliver supplies, say every 3 months to get maximum growth
19:40:52 <andythenorth> it would be possible to code
19:41:01 <andythenorth> I don't see any benefit from it though :o
19:41:06 <andythenorth> what does it improve?
19:41:22 <planetmaker> the delicacy of the tuning required
19:41:38 <planetmaker> currently you need to adjust deliveries quite carefully
19:42:02 <andythenorth> so deliver at least 1t every three months instead?
19:42:03 <Aali> I think it would be a nice parameter to have, to "relax" the supply system a bit
19:42:07 <planetmaker> with 3x the time you could probably set a number of vehicles to distribute supplies in the fashion of ABACADAE
19:42:33 <andythenorth> it's not a hard thing to implement. with a parameter it might be harder
19:43:04 <andythenorth> a great deal of the current supplies handling mimicks the town cargo handling
19:43:28 <frosch123> you can count the days in one register, reset to 0 on delivery, and compare that to the parameter
19:44:04 <andythenorth> similar code exists for handling other delivery at some industries
19:44:15 <andythenorth> it would be easy to hook in
19:44:28 <andythenorth> it would also be possible to make the number of months a parameter
19:44:43 <andythenorth> however, it means some more work with strings + translations
19:45:01 <andythenorth> doing anything with the text stack is usually harder than just...writing more strings
19:49:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: ^^ write a ticket for 0.2 ? :P
19:49:42 <andythenorth> sorry FIRS 2.0 :m
19:50:52 <Aali> oh and while I'm here, nutracks has a rather "interesting" problem
19:51:45 <Aali> selling more expensive track types doesn't give you a fraction of the money back you would get by first downgrading to the cheapest rail type, then selling
19:52:36 <andythenorth> making a FIRS production increase more likely in a month would have the same production effect as increasing the number of months
19:52:52 <andythenorth> but it might have a different effect on number of vehicles players route
19:53:33 <andythenorth> it would also be (slightly) easier to code support for a parameter
19:53:44 <andythenorth> except I don't really understand random in hex
19:54:06 <Aali> then you would be able to get more growth by supplying every month
19:54:30 <Aali> which doesn't really "relax" the system at all :)
19:54:40 <andythenorth> over time it would have the same effect
19:54:53 <Aali> it just encourages players even more to deliver every month
19:55:05 <andythenorth> 12 * 10% increase or 6 * 20% should have same effect (statistically)
19:55:19 <andythenorth> i.e. deliver every two months
19:55:40 <andythenorth> but it may not seem that way to players
19:55:52 <andythenorth> I often forget how random works when repeated enough times
19:55:59 <andythenorth> so other people might too :o
19:56:09 <Aali> I think you're missing the point :)
19:58:12 <Aali> with that solution, if player A delivers every month and player B only every 3 months, player A will win big
19:59:12 <Aali> I wanted an option that doesn't reward player A's obsessive compolsive disorder :)
19:59:29 <andythenorth> player B could pick up cargo from player A's industry :P
20:00:06 <andythenorth> so in the '3 month' version, there is only one chance every 3 months for a boost?
20:00:10 <Aali> gold star for thinking outside the box :P
20:00:33 <andythenorth> would the increases need to be 3x larger?
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20:01:15 <Aali> I'll leave that decision up to you :)
20:01:45 <andythenorth> no no, I've designed and coded the way I want it to work :P
20:01:54 <andythenorth> I'm not solving all those problems again
20:02:56 <Aali> I hope that I will some day be able to contribute to one of your projects :P
20:05:35 <andythenorth> I would consider changes, but only where all the conceptual stuff is worked out clearly :)
20:05:43 <andythenorth> otherwise I have n other things to do ;)
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20:12:14 * fjb still doesn't understand how inflation is working.
20:12:36 <andythenorth> unexpected consequences on long game
20:13:57 <V453000> I thought it just multiplies everything but it obviously doesnt :O
20:14:28 <fjb> Unexpected consequences on a short game. Everything more than doubled its costs in less than 20 years.
20:14:30 <SmatZ> inflation on cargo payment rates is different than inflation on things you buy
20:14:55 <fjb> An inflation on running costs?
20:15:30 <V453000> well that just works oddly :) and by some time you arent able to actually make profit with trains
20:15:39 <andythenorth> setting vehicle running costs in a savegame with inflation can also cause mistakes :P
20:15:52 <V453000> I once played with URKS, I used the AL-10 engines and I was barely making any money after few hundreds of years
20:16:12 <andythenorth> we should implement this in OTTD :P
20:16:24 <andythenorth> I have implemented it in Lego many times recently :D
20:16:40 <planetmaker> hm.. .break-downsß
20:16:58 <andythenorth> stringlining on tight curves
20:17:05 <andythenorth> another incentive to not use 90'
20:18:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth: ... if that means to break down in tight curves: newgrf-possible
20:18:48 <planetmaker> it's a speed test
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20:56:26 <Belugas> nigth Terkhen, sir of waters
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21:48:17 * fjb thinks that using a high inflation was not the best idea.
21:49:19 <avdg> putting it off sounds like a better idea
21:58:41 <__ln__> I just found out that the Netherlands has more provinces than Canada!
22:03:47 <davis> germany has even more ;p
22:04:02 <__ln__> They are not provinces.
22:05:49 <davis> "A province is a territorial unit, almost always an administrative division, within a country or state."
22:07:26 <Eddi|zuHause> prussia had provinces
22:08:20 <davis> i'm probably wrong , but i couldn't name the difference between the dutch provinces and the federal states of germany
22:08:58 <Prof_Frink> Easy. They're in different countries.
22:09:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say level of competences
22:09:23 <__ln__> The other begins with an 'f' and the other with a 'p'.
22:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause> no, they actually begin with a 'b' :p
22:10:00 <davis> smartasses in the house :D
22:10:18 <__ln__> And when the Netherlands decides to invade Canada, they'll have an 1:1 exchange ratio for provinces.
22:10:53 <davis> then again , why would anyone want to invade canada :/
22:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say a province has less power over its own policies than a federal state
22:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's a purely subjective view
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