IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-09-17
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05:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> great news everybody
05:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "include some curves in tunnels, it cant be that hard to implement it."
05:30:32 <Terkhen> the screenshot is what really convinced me
05:32:40 <Terkhen> if he can place some rails to show what he wants, it can't be that hard to implement... we only have to follow the picture
05:35:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, what he requested was diagonal tunnels, with a bit of "custom tunnel heads"
05:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> which might be feasible to implement, but it's certainly not "easy"
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06:13:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20820 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Codechange: remove two more contants related to the height of the main toolbar
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06:38:12 <__ln__> it's sad that implementing something that seemingly simple is that hard.
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09:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i only know rabbits
09:08:16 <Rubidium> you don't know that subsidiary of BT?
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09:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "for the first time microsoft's search engine 'bing' has more users than yahoo"
09:21:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "you know how i learned this?"
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09:38:41 <peter1138> So, uh, does any one Yahoo! these days?
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09:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i have neither heard of anybody "yahoo"-ing nor "bing"-ing...
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09:45:54 <fonsinchen> "bing-ing" might be related to "binge drinking"
09:48:21 * beyre83 used to be a altavista person, then when google launched i switched to google
09:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> does that even still exist?
09:49:12 * SmatZ was using altavista as well
09:49:59 <beyre83> fucking yahoo bought em
09:52:13 <beyre83> so yea the still exist, but doubt many ppl use em anymore
09:52:30 <beyre83> tho my faher likes useing "ask"
09:52:34 <beyre83> for some strange reason
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10:09:19 <Eddi|zuHause> what the hell is an "ask"?
10:10:02 <roboboy> formerly known as Ask Jeeves
10:14:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "where "Jeeves" is the name of the "gentleman's personal gentleman", or valet, fetching answers to any question asked. The character was based on Jeeves, Bertie Wooster's fictional valet from the works of P. G. Wodehouse." <-- seriously... who?!?
10:17:10 <__ln__> Bertie Wooster aka Gregory House, M.D.
10:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i never watched house :p
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10:47:48 <VVG> i triggered an assert by loading a savegame made with firs 0.3 without the actual firs grf :(. Is the triggered assert enough reason to file a crash report even though it's completely my fault that i messed up grfs that much and ignored a few red warnings?
10:48:33 <planetmaker> it's your fault, if you load a firs 0.3 game with firs 0.4
10:48:37 <SmatZ> it's completely your fault
10:48:59 <SmatZ> especially that "ignored a few red warnings"
10:51:16 <VVG> i'm not asking whose fault it is, i already know it
10:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> gnah... i have this (presumable) graphics driver bug that causes segfault in memcpy when using compressed textures, which displays when making diplomatic contact in civ4 :(
10:52:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i had patched my wine to circumvent it, but now it reappeared after updating :(
10:52:40 <SmatZ> VVG: if you know it's your fault, don't open a bugreport :)
10:53:23 <blathijs> SmatZ: OTOH, it's also a common guideline tha a program should never be able to assert or segfault, no matter how big an idiot the user is ;-)
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10:54:58 <Rubidium> blathijs: we can do that, but that will get a hell of a lot complaints that OpenTTD is to strict when it comes to loading savegames with missing NewGRFs
10:55:34 <blathijs> Rubidium: Huh, what?
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10:56:51 <SmatZ> user is warned the game might crash, but he ignores the warning
10:56:55 <Rubidium> blathijs: prevent lots of asserts and segfaults if the use is at fault
10:56:59 <VVG> that's what thorn me on this issue, whether the stupidity amount of actions leading to a crash should be considered before reporting an actual crash :)
10:57:04 <SmatZ> if the game refused to load that save at all, the crash would be prevented
10:57:08 <Rubidium> by not allowing to load savegames that are missing some NewGRFs
10:57:27 <Rubidium> will kill pretty much most crashes-after-ignoring-the-red-warning
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11:01:18 <VVG> by any chance, anyone have a trunnk savegame with lots of timetabled vehicles with different order setups and willing to share it?
11:02:14 <peter1138> store a copy of every grf in the save game ;)
11:03:59 <VVG> i just cleaned up my openttd folder which grew up to 300mb big. 100mb of saves and 50mb of grfs were deleted. And i only had about 20 saves i think.
11:04:24 <VVG> and 15 autosaves i've not mentioned :(
11:04:47 <SmatZ> you probably need only pseudo-sprites
11:05:13 * Rubidium has "only" 1.1 GiB with NewGRFs, scenarios, AIs and saves
11:05:28 <Rubidium> and a mere 5.0 GiB of checkouts
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11:06:13 <planetmaker> VVG, no real need to clean 50MB of grfs, is there?
11:06:18 <planetmaker> Never throw them away ;-)
11:06:42 <planetmaker> you saved now disk space worth... 5 cent and spent... how long to trouble-shoot?
11:06:57 <VVG> some of the were absolutely useless, some, like firs 0.3 not so :(
11:07:20 <planetmaker> sorting through them is not worth the trouble
11:07:22 <VVG> problem is in my case, i have limited space on c drive. very limited
11:07:42 <planetmaker> the problem is the wrong OS which doesn't allow symlinks ;-)
11:08:04 * roboboy likes WIndows 7 for it's symlinks
11:08:16 <roboboy> all my grfs are on a server
11:08:22 <VVG> that's stretching it too far :)
11:08:38 <Rubidium> did I mention the 5 installed GCCs, including a self-compiled trunk (yay 3.3 GiB checkout), 3 versions of MSVC, ICC and.. oh and two other GCCs (DOS cross-compile and MinGW)
11:09:08 <roboboy> well except the ones that my DOS installs of (O)TT(D(P))
11:09:24 <SmatZ> Rubidium: I got 15GiB for checkouts, and I have to delete binaries very often :-/
11:09:41 <Rubidium> oh, not to forget openwatcom and mingw cross-compiler
11:10:29 <roboboy> when my internet speed goes back up, I might try and setup djgpp on windows to try and compile OpenTTD for DOS
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11:23:53 <Eddi|zuHause> 0009:trace:d3d_surface:surface_download_data (0x1e9676e0) : Calling glGetCompressedTexImageARB level 8, format 0x1908, type 0x1401, data 0x1e9670c0.
11:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> 0009:trace:seh:raise_exception code=c0000005 flags=0 addr=0xb7d53776 ip=b7d53776 tid=0009
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11:47:12 <Eddi|zuHause> why did nobody ever get the idea to feed "tail" the number of lines to skip from the beginning of the file?
11:47:57 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: because that's something sed can do?
11:48:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, when i can tell it "tail -n 1000", why can't i tell it e.g. "tail -n -34029895"?
11:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> where "34029895" is the "interesting" line that "grep -n" told me...
11:49:44 <Eddi|zuHause> now i have to make the expensive calculation of how many lines the file really has
11:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause> how would you do that with sed?
11:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "show me line 34029895 to the end of the file"?
11:55:08 <Ammler> tail -n `total lines - yourline`
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12:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i said, getting "total lines" is an expensive operation...
12:01:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: and i believe you forgot $[]
12:01:40 <Ammler> tail would need to do that anyway,
12:01:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: no, why?
12:02:22 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: sed '1,10d' ?
12:02:38 <SmatZ> to delete first 10 lines
12:02:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: loop { if (linenum < parameter) continue; print line }
12:03:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: no total number needed
12:05:05 <SmatZ> using sed for that might be overkill
12:05:10 <SmatZ> but at least it's not awk :p
12:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: even normal "tail" doesn't need that number, it can instead use a round-robin buffer, and give out the content of that buffer on encountering eof
12:05:31 <SmatZ> you can write that script yourself, anyway
12:05:52 <Ammler> isn't reading the whole file the "expensive part"?
12:05:56 <SmatZ> while read LINE; if [ n -gt 10 ]; then echo $LINE ...
12:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes, but reading file once is easier than reading file twice
12:07:14 <SmatZ> especially when the file is huge and you can stream output to another program
12:07:22 * SmatZ is doing that quite often lately
12:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: especially if the file doesn't fit in the cache
12:07:50 <SmatZ> the other process can start working when it sooner, not when whole 1,7GB file is read
12:08:01 <SmatZ> "working when it sooner" wut
12:10:56 <Ammler> and sed 1-10d wouldn't read the whole file?
12:11:01 <VVG> vc++ 2010 installer is evil, it wants to install a bunch of stuff and doesn't let me specify where i want all of it to go :(
12:13:14 <Ammler> wc -l is quite fast also on big files
12:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: reading a 3GB file over and over again doesn't qualify as "fast"...
12:14:05 <Ammler> why over and over again?
12:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: grep reads the file, wc reads the file, tail reads the file, ...?
12:14:56 <Eddi|zuHause> all these tools need to jump from \n to \n
12:15:01 <Ammler> shouldn't that only read the end
12:15:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that can't be done without reading
12:15:24 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, how can you jump from \n to \n w/o reading?!
12:15:42 <planetmaker> uhm... can != can't :-P
12:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: parse error?
12:16:14 <Ammler> yes, but tail does read back, I would assume
12:16:24 <Ammler> and not the whole file
12:16:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it does
12:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that would fail on streams etc.
12:18:10 <Ammler> tail messages > /dev/null is 3 times faste as cat messages > /dev/null
12:18:13 <planetmaker> I guess it could differ there
12:18:30 <SmatZ> [14:10:56] <Ammler> and sed 1-10d wouldn't read the whole file? <== 'sed' is 'stream editor'
12:18:55 <SmatZ> [14:14:56] <Eddi|zuHause> all these tools need to jump from \n to \n <== afaik, tail just stores read data in memory
12:19:07 <SmatZ> the problem is the buffer is limited
12:19:25 <Rubidium> let it not output anything until the to-be-matched (grep) expression is found, then output everything
12:19:43 <Rubidium> then you only need a single pass over the file
12:19:57 <SmatZ> as I have already told, "sed '1,10d'" works great
12:20:15 <SmatZ> so stop this discussion and use it :p
12:20:45 <SmatZ> but no, people prefer to discuss instead of working :)
12:21:04 <Ammler> xou are so damn right :-P
12:21:26 <Rubidium> SmatZ: but then you still need grep, so you have two passes over the file
12:22:08 <planetmaker> finding something obviously needs a search which in the worst case means reading everything, finding nothing
12:22:23 <SmatZ> Rubidium: grep works with streams too
12:22:49 <SmatZ> but yes :) I wonder what is faster, awk or sed+grep?
12:23:23 <Rubidium> another option is "grep -A 999999999999999999 <to grep thing> $file"
12:24:10 <Rubidium> SmatZ: I'd argue that given the relative slowness of scanning 3 GiB, awk is faster than sed+grep
12:26:48 <Ammler> hmm, but why is there a head -n-10 but no tail -n-10?
12:28:29 <roboboy> would a SDL version of OpenTTD work on windows?
12:28:35 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: tried tail -n +34029895 $file?
12:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: hm... that's not in the man page
12:30:30 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: then you've got an old man page
12:30:33 * roboboy wonders if a Windows95 build of OpenTTD built using SDL instead of DirectX would work under Windows 3.X with Win32s
12:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it seems to work
12:31:12 <Rubidium> hell... it's even in the man page of tail in Debian Lenny
12:31:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: indeed, seems the german man page is outdated
12:31:28 <Rubidium> what extremely ancient distro are you using?
12:31:45 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: never use de-man pages
12:32:40 <planetmaker> if tail is given a file it does indeed scan backward
12:34:04 <Ammler> I wonder, suse does still install those outdated docs
12:35:28 <SmatZ> silly, even with 64bit system, I need to specify -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 to work with huge files nicely
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12:39:19 <roboboy> does OpenTTD use any Windows API calls which would likely be missing from Win32s?
12:39:43 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: in any case, you should file a bug report about the manpage being out-of-date
12:42:46 <planetmaker> roboboy, OpenTTD *should* work independent of 32 or 64 bit. But the usable drivers differ
12:43:10 <planetmaker> and their 'ranking'
12:43:43 <roboboy> planetmaker, did you notice the s on the end of Win32s?
12:43:55 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: win32s is the 32-bit extension of win 3.11
12:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: main problem with pre-win2k is usually lack of unicode support
12:44:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure the win9x problems are documented somewhere
12:45:27 <glx> too early for that __ln__ ;)
12:45:47 <__ln__> one hour later here, but yeah :)
12:46:46 <Eddi|zuHause> "evening" is >18:00?
12:47:01 <roboboy> The only problems I can think of under Win32s is no DirectX so one would have to either run the DOS port or a Win95 version using Allegro or SDL
12:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: openttd doesn't use directx
12:47:46 <planetmaker> <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: win32s is the 32-bit extension of win 3.11 <-- aye. That's a piece of information I was missing :-)
12:48:09 <roboboy> but it isn't all of Win32
12:48:14 <glx> but drawing is done with GDI or optionnaly SDL
12:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's basically some stuff from win95 backported to win3.11
12:48:51 <roboboy> hm maybe I will try the windows 95 version under Win32s
12:49:11 <planetmaker> sounds only usable for freaks like roboboy ;-) (and I mean no offence ;-) )
12:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: yes, that would also the first thing i would try
12:49:28 <roboboy> just nutting out any issues
12:49:32 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it came with freecell ;)
12:49:45 <roboboy> hehe I don't mind being called a freak in here
12:50:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: knowing the history of roboboy, you could have guessed that he's trying to install some ancient platform...
12:50:49 <roboboy> it's already installed
12:51:01 <roboboy> minus Windows OpenTTD
12:51:05 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes, I did guess that.
12:51:31 <planetmaker> Besides... Spleen [DE] != spleen [EN]
12:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't know either of their meanings
12:52:17 <Rubidium> the latter is some internal organ
12:52:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i only know splines...
12:52:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know spliff ;)
12:53:01 <Rubidium> IIRC one of the internal organs you can live without
12:53:28 <planetmaker> Rubidium, rather the other meanings ;-). Which translate to 'tic' or 'eccentricity' or 'obsession' or 'quirk'.
12:53:34 <planetmaker> Not sure, but 'tic' might fit best
12:53:56 <planetmaker> but I don't know the connotations. "Spleen" is friendly
12:54:39 * roboboy waits while Win9x OpenTTD downloads slowly on his slow connection
12:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't know how to properly bisect a hacked wine...
12:56:01 <Rubidium> VVG: IIRC that's some incorrectly ordered includes
12:56:24 <dihedral> VVG, i like the smily at the end of the second line
12:56:56 <Rubidium> glx: it's directx sdk7 interfering in some way
12:58:04 <VVG> i didn't even know i have such things before i saw this error
12:58:34 <VVG> and about includes, i have ottd essentials listed first, then dxsdk, then default ones
12:58:46 <Rubidium> move dxsdk to the bottom and try again
13:00:21 <VVG> i can only change the order of dxsdk and essentials, as others are "inherited"
13:00:40 <glx> D:\developpement\ottd\OpenTTD essentials\shared\include
13:01:01 <Rubidium> glx: move DXSDK_DIR to the top and you'll get those errors
13:01:12 <Rubidium> proving my point it's dxsdk interfering
13:01:53 <glx> anyway we use a very old dxsdk so it's somehow not surprising
13:02:20 <VVG> how did you get dxsdk this low?
13:04:46 <Rubidium> it's directx7's sdk providing rpcsal.h without that __RPC__out_xcount_part defined
13:05:02 <Rubidium> and when it's include is before the platform SDK that "wrong" one gets loaded
13:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that should probably be documented somewhere
13:08:09 <planetmaker> the usual difference between *should* *somewhere* *by someone* and actual reality hits hard sometimes
13:14:58 <__ln__> are things like books, software, movies and such translated separately for Canadian French and French French?
13:15:21 <glx> they are just not available in canada :)
13:16:05 <glx> but dubbed movies are nice in canada, normal accent except for names
13:16:40 <VVG> succesfully built, thanks
13:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: and friday is almost over!!! ;)
13:22:36 <Belugas> or... just started :( but i'm happy for you, sir Eddi :)
13:23:16 <Belugas> glx, normal accent, you mean it's french like?
13:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i have a problem, i'm trying to read mms://stream4.rbb-online.de/rbb/klartext/klartext_20100916_k_polizei_m_16_9_512x288.wmv but it always stops at around 32MB into the file...
13:23:49 <Belugas> ho... i was not aware they are making such good translations
13:24:01 <Belugas> in fatm i always though they stink
13:24:22 <Belugas> my wife and i prefer by far the translations from France
13:24:32 <Belugas> but i guess we are both specal cases :S
13:25:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i know a movie that was dubbed from switzerdüütsch to hochdeutsch ;)
13:25:34 <planetmaker> nice. That link segfaulted my vlc
13:26:01 <__ln__> vlc, which is french french
13:26:36 <planetmaker> hm, my suse has a pretty old vlc, < 1.0
13:30:43 <Belugas> __ln__ : technically, there is no difference between french from France or from Quebec, at least at the "official" level. The differences are more at the people side
13:31:12 <Belugas> we do have expressions, wordings and such that are a bit different
13:31:54 <Belugas> but that does not reflect on the general litterature/culture, unless you expressely use an art made by and for a quebecor or a french
13:32:05 <glx> but for some reason it's absent in movies
13:32:28 <Belugas> because it is aimed at an internatioal market
13:32:29 <Eddi|zuHause> in 98% of all movies, german accents/dialects are also absent
13:32:47 <Belugas> so it can be sold as such to a large audience
13:33:02 <Belugas> same for german, as it seems :)
13:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i enjoy british shows in original language, they actually do have accents there...
13:33:21 <Eddi|zuHause> unless they're getting too extreme
13:33:22 <glx> also singers have accent when the speak but not when they sing
13:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause> sportfreunde stiller are a great example of that ;)
13:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a german moderator of the "ARD Mittagsmagazin" [i believe, haven't watched that in a while], where the moderator has an extreme bavarian accent... it's really disturbing listening to that...
13:38:47 <VVG> glx: Are you using vc2010?
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13:41:48 <VVG> Do you have a .props sheet suitable for applying to ottd you can share?
13:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it should probably be alright, thoug. the variable has 4 bits per edge, and is offset by 6, so you have a range of 2^6 to 2^(6+15), "which should be enough for anyone" :p
13:43:19 <Belugas> [09:33] <+glx> also singers have accent when the speak but not when they sing <--- yeah! that's so true! never figured that part
13:43:20 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, only values 0 (=64) to 5 (=2048) are used
13:46:43 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 2097152
13:46:46 <beyre83> i am wondering how OTTD, gets around dmca notices?
13:46:53 <beyre83> since it reversed enginnerd the game
13:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: to my knowledge, nobody ever filed such a demand
13:47:40 <beyre83> Eddi|zuHause: well ok, but chris sawyer could if he felt so inclined, for breach of copyright
13:48:03 <SmatZ> beyre83: what has Europe to do with DMCA?
13:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: current legal status of TTD is: "chris sawyer said he doesn't own TTD", and "Atari says it's not bothered to find out whether they are owning TTD"
13:48:27 <dihedral> beyre83, Chris Sawyer could not
13:48:45 <beyre83> well SmatZ even euro is coverd by dmca
13:48:51 <beyre83> according to america at least
13:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: and ludde said: "reverse engineering was legal under swedish rights at that time"
13:49:24 <SmatZ> [15:48:51] <beyre83> according to america at least <== /me couldn't care less
13:49:32 <planetmaker> beyre83, so... what happens if someone in America sues me on the basis of American laws?
13:49:50 <dihedral> perhaps you get invited to visit the states? :-P
13:49:52 <planetmaker> I'm not subject to them
13:50:02 <dihedral> beyre83, you seem to care enough to rise that question ;-)
13:50:04 <planetmaker> *unless* I visit the US
13:50:05 <beyre83> maybe not but i am sure your country has similer
13:50:43 <dihedral> which does not suit "i do not care" very well
13:50:43 <beyre83> but if you download say illegal software, the owner of that company can complain to your isp who can cut you off
13:50:47 <beyre83> even if your not in america
13:51:05 <glx> beyre83: but the owner is unknown
13:51:13 <beyre83> i am not on about ttd
13:51:20 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: you misunderstand copyright... only the UPLOAD is illegal
13:51:22 <beyre83> i am on about intlectual property rights
13:51:25 <dihedral> glx, you mean the owner of TT?
13:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: and only if the owner complains
13:51:54 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: and like we said, the presumed owner isn't bothered to find out
13:51:56 <SmatZ> [15:50:42] <beyre83> but if you download say illegal software, the owner of that company can complain to your isp who can cut you off <== certainly not
13:52:18 <SmatZ> maybe if you are in France :p
13:52:45 <SmatZ> what's the status of HADOPI?
13:53:18 <glx> SmatZ: HADOPI is not about download, it's about insufficient protection of your connection
13:53:44 <beyre83> •Infogrames changed its corporate name to Atari Inc. Infogrames, after taking over Hasbro Interactive in 2001, is the copyright holder to most MicroProse intellectual property
13:54:47 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: you're free to try to get a legally binding statement out of Atari whether they own TTD or not..
13:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: several of us tried, nobody succeeded
13:55:00 <beyre83> well that claims they own
13:55:22 <dihedral> they were allowed to produce copies, but had to pay % to marjacq
13:55:28 <dihedral> produce and distribute
13:55:47 <dihedral> iirc that law suit was settled not all that long ago
13:55:58 <dihedral> for a law suit lasting longer than 2years IIRC
13:56:20 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: you have a reference?
13:56:35 <glx> it was solve with money, not by judges
13:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and "settled" may mean any number of things
13:56:44 <dihedral> settled out side of court
13:57:01 <dihedral> feel free to call marjacq, and ask for 'guy' :-P
13:57:16 <dihedral> he's their main legal person i spoke to some years back
13:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it does not necessarily mean that either side definitely gave up their claim to the copyright
13:58:59 <glx> but as there's no court decision, the owner is still unclear
13:59:11 <dihedral> this was not about owning
13:59:21 <dihedral> this was about 'owing'
13:59:31 <dihedral> marjacq owns the game
13:59:39 <dihedral> they never gave that away
14:00:17 <dihedral> merely had contracts with companies to produce copies and distribute, but were still ablodged to pay a certain % for each copy
14:00:50 <dihedral> i had 2 phone calles with atarii lawyers too
14:02:03 <Belugas> yeah... dihedral made all those calls and inquires to push them to shut us down!
14:03:21 <dihedral> if i recall correctly i forwarded that email to you, too, did i not?
14:03:24 <beyre83> seems it was settled in 2008
14:03:39 <dihedral> nearly 3 years ago :-P
14:03:58 <dihedral> the email, i mean, was nearly 3 years ago
14:04:05 <Belugas> yes, you did :) and I really appreciated that work and involvement of yours
14:04:11 <dihedral> got a reply from marjacq on 09/25/2007 01:08 PM
14:04:35 <Eddi|zuHause> just took a sip of "cranberry juice"
14:04:45 <Eddi|zuHause> damn that's ugly!
14:04:54 <Belugas> the fact that you wanted so bad to have that situation cleared (but unfortunately never succeeded) was appreciated
14:05:12 <dihedral> well - it's cleared enough.
14:05:45 <Belugas> unfortunately, not enough as to clear out those discussions once and for all :(
14:05:46 <dihedral> when was TTD RE'd? was that 2000?
14:05:56 <Belugas> and it cannot be made public either
14:06:00 <dihedral> 10 years without a notice issued by the owner \o/
14:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: i think it was later...
14:06:25 <dihedral> well, a few more years to go
14:06:56 <beyre83> donst copyright last 75yrs or something
14:06:58 <dihedral> besides, if they started a lawsuit now, it'd be too late for a quick outcome anyway - as they are fully aware of the project, and have been for years now
14:07:23 <dihedral> beyre83, after the death of the author ;-)
14:07:26 <Belugas> beyre83, the amount of time differs from a country to the other
14:07:54 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: in europe, it's usually 70 years after the death of the author. no "application" needed
14:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: i hope you still have those emails, in case we ever need to prove that we did try to contact the relevant people about the copyright
14:09:25 <Belugas> he sure does, he even can tell the time he received those ;)
14:10:12 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, you think i'd delete them? ^^
14:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: i meant, "he WILL still have them at that hypothetical future time"
14:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: there may be all sorts of reasons for data loss
14:10:39 <dihedral> iirc i might still have phone bills with their number on them :-P
14:13:21 <Eddi|zuHause> who dares open a file called "pdf_malware.pdf"? :)
14:14:16 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: I hope there's no example malware in that PDF :p
14:14:57 <planetmaker> Drive-by download, SmatZ ;-)
14:15:08 <planetmaker> with one for each OS ;-)
14:15:59 <planetmaker> that even makes sense
14:20:36 <beyre83> doubt this is actually really him
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14:21:24 <planetmaker> the photo should be him
14:21:34 <beyre83> but anyone can steal a photo
14:21:39 <beyre83> dosnt mean its actually his account
14:27:52 <beyre83> wonders if its possibull to play ottd on a ipad, now that would be fun all touch screen
14:28:30 <Eddi|zuHause> there was an iphone port around...
14:28:32 <planetmaker> there was a version violating copyright
14:30:10 <VVG> kinda figured those property sheets of vc2010. However, if make a new separate sheet with include and lib paths setup for ottd, msvc modifies vxproj file which is svned. If i don't want it to be changed, am i stuck to default sheet?
14:30:11 <planetmaker> license is the better word than copyright
14:30:33 <Rubidium> GPLv2 doesn't like Apple's ToS
14:31:08 <beyre83> well parts of osx are gpl
14:31:14 <beyre83> well the bsd core is parts of it
14:31:19 <Rubidium> but before that it was violating copyright/the license of OpenGFX, OpenSFX and OpenTTD
14:31:19 <beyre83> tho they have closed most of it
14:32:11 <Rubidium> as a result of that it seems Apple has removed OpenTTD
14:32:37 <beyre83> correct me if i am wrong, but if something is GPL it can be changed / modifed to run on any device or os, provideing that the orginal makers of said item still retain mention in the new program?
14:32:42 <Rubidium> after we got it pulled, followed by allowing it again because the "porter" fixed all license issues with it
14:33:07 <Rubidium> and then Apple changed their ToS, FSF complained about it and Apple removed OpenTTD again
14:36:26 <Rubidium> also... it's not the act of porting that is wrong, it's the act of (for the first pull) not providing the full sources, not providing the license and misrepresenting the license of certain parts
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14:37:36 <beyre83> i know if you port you have to included full source code, and update the licence but still retain the names of the orginal program in the new licence
14:38:40 <Rubidium> you can't change a license if you're not the copyright holder
14:39:32 <planetmaker> gpl just requires to amend the attributions correspondingly. So that no-one attributes your crappy changes to my shiny glory :-P
14:40:21 <beyre83> i never said remove the orginal owners name, but you can add your name as the person who ported it
14:40:29 <beyre83> you cant claim the work as your own
14:40:37 <beyre83> except the code you wrote to port it
14:40:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the main problem is that you are forced to go over the app store, which is kind of a monopoly...
14:40:42 <VVG> Terkhen: not sure if this is applicable here. I wanted the default sheet to stay default and made a new one. Imported it in a project and vs modified the vxcproj file to include one more line <Import Project="..\..\openttd.props" />. and this vxcproj is subversioned.
14:41:08 <beyre83> but its how apple enforces there policy
14:41:21 <beyre83> by not allowing anyone else there they dont like
14:41:25 <Terkhen> VVG: the Microsoft.Cpp.Win32.User.Props sheet is used by all projects
14:41:59 <Terkhen> once you set the folders there, you can forget about them
14:42:32 <VVG> yep. that's why i wanted it to stay default for now and make a new sheet for ottds. But, if i don't want unnecessary modifications to subversioned files i guess i have to use this global sheet
14:47:27 <glx> in previous VS versions, you could have a local config in .user files, but they changed that :)
14:48:47 <glx> hmm there is a local .user
14:50:59 <glx> but that doesn't work it seems
14:51:02 * beyre83 wonders wether or not to buy a simfree iphone :p
14:52:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it starts with an "i"
14:52:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it can't be good
14:52:49 <beyre83> they really that bad?
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14:55:17 <Rubidium> if *you* want to decided what *you* want to do with the thing, then yes it is bad. If *you* want Apple to decide what *you* can do on your phone, then no it's not bad.
14:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "ich laß mich nicht ver-Apple-n"
14:57:13 <Eddi|zuHause> "für'n Apple und'n i"
14:58:03 <Rubidium> although maybe my opinion of Apple is somewhat tainted by earlier experiences
14:59:04 <Rubidium> e.g. the first Apple experience I had was completely locking up someone's iBook by looking through the screensavers it had (only way to get it rebooted: remove battery and power cord)
15:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hey: my first win95 experience: pushing the "minimize" button on any window restarted the computer :p
15:01:51 <Rubidium> after that family members having a mac have been complaining about loads of hardware issues, like the backlight inverter (or something) causing the screen to flicker
15:02:05 <Rubidium> that'd make the device completely useless to me
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15:09:31 <dihedral> <Eddi|zuHause> "ich la mich nicht ver-Apple-n" <- NICE
15:11:30 <__ln__> in short, Rubidium is just envious that even TrueBrain had a mac in the meeting but he had a Dell or something. :)
15:12:16 <dihedral> TrueBrain has a mac??
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15:13:05 <TrueBrain> weird, I brought something I didn't bought
15:13:07 <VVG> "The migration user file. After a project is migrated from Visual Studio 2008, this file contains information that was converted from any .vsprops file." <- This is a descriptions of vxcproj.user file from msdn. It's not used in native 2010 project anymore, is it?
15:14:58 *** Yexo is now known as Guest1094
15:16:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20821 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Fix [FS#4129]: terraforming the land under objects could leave sloped or elevated sea tiles
15:21:05 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
15:36:31 * robotboy waits for OpenTTD to unzip
15:37:10 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
16:01:36 <robotboy> meh my DOS machine's disk is full and wont fit a second copy of OpenTTD on it
16:07:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i have a spare 40MB disk ;)
16:07:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20822 /trunk/src/genworld.cpp: -Fix [FS#3707]: deadlock when aborting map generation on windows
16:10:10 <robotboy> Ive got spare drives, the problem is getting my bios to like multiple drives and getting the jumpers setup correctly
16:10:36 <robotboy> this is a celeron machine from 98SE
16:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> jumpers are easy... two drives per cable, one master, one slave
16:11:46 <robotboy> yeah normally but these drives seem to have odd jumper settings
16:11:59 *** thvdburgt has joined #openttd
16:12:18 <robotboy> I'll try it in about 12 hours after a sleep and a haircut
16:18:04 <planetmaker> sleep well then :-)
16:20:14 <robotboy> I'm not entirely ready for bed yet (:
16:20:36 <robotboy> there's some decent cricket on tv at the moment
16:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> > git show 6f18777 | patch
16:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> patch: **** Only garbage was found in the patch input.
16:21:51 <planetmaker> oh cricket... :-)
16:22:10 <planetmaker> Those were nice social occasions in the weekends when I still lived in the Southern hemisphere :-)
16:22:18 <planetmaker> weired sport, though ;-)
16:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> cricket is where they play for 3 days, and then declare it a draw?
16:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand what's wrong with this patch
16:23:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks totally alright to me...
16:24:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20823 /trunk/src/thread/thread_pthread.cpp: -Codechange: enable/add some error/sanity checking in the pthread code
16:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> how can i tell git to list all my commits, even if they are not in the "head" branch?
16:37:26 <beyre83> mmm remineder to self do not leave a passivly cooled dell mini 9 on for 3days pluged in on carpet
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16:40:28 <SmatZ> beyre83: because of the heat?
16:41:23 <planetmaker> looks like a product bug, not a mis-use
16:42:04 <beyre83> mmm though they wouldnt agree with you :p
16:42:30 <beyre83> they would say its a heat issue, since all the service tags on the bottom have vanished due to heat
16:42:35 <beyre83> cant read the serial no
16:43:12 <beyre83> not even the microsoft coa is visibull cant read the text anymor
16:43:40 <SmatZ> does the manual say that it shouldn't be left for 3 days on the carpet?
16:44:00 <beyre83> but idd have to check
16:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: i'd try for a warranty replacement
16:44:26 <beyre83> how long are these things warrantted for these days?
16:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> be sure to back up all data, though ;)
16:44:32 <SmatZ> there's nothing to lose for trying
16:44:35 <beyre83> its more than 2yrs old
16:44:55 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: depends... standard is 2 years, but lots of companies offer more
16:45:31 <SmatZ> I had a hard drive that died after 4 years and 11 months
16:45:59 <SmatZ> the only problem was I would have to deliver it to Seagate Center somewhere in Germany
16:46:13 <planetmaker> that's a problem?
16:46:17 <SmatZ> even the price for posting would be more expensive than new HDD...
16:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> international shipping?
16:46:39 <SmatZ> but the extended (>2yrs) warranty had to be solved that way
16:46:46 <Eddi|zuHause> my shipping to seagate cost like 5€
16:47:05 <SmatZ> 5yrs warranty is just marketing bull*
16:47:21 <planetmaker> SmatZ, lifetime warranty :-)
16:47:34 <beyre83> wonders if service tag is in bios
16:47:37 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody gives out lifetime warranties to end users...
16:47:38 <beyre83> as i cant read the sticker
16:47:45 <planetmaker> I could use it on my backpack. But the company is bancrupt :-P
16:47:50 <SmatZ> there's a risk they will say the warranty is void for some reason
16:47:57 <SmatZ> like, it was damaged by post
16:49:20 <planetmaker> Dell is not that bad with service
16:49:29 <glx> call them, dell is good yes
16:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but still, make a data backup ;)
17:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: did you already hear that MB has some kind of problem with your blacksmith accepting iron ore?
17:05:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no, I am indeed fascinated to hear about it though
17:06:05 <andythenorth> it shall probably be the highlight of this evening
17:06:14 <andythenorth> do I have to visit a German forum to learn of this?
17:06:36 <andythenorth> well, I shall never know of it then :P
17:07:28 <Hirundo> Of course, using the german forum should ensure that 'problems' are not 'fixed', thus having enough to complain about for years to come
17:07:50 <beyre83> mmm there phon hold stuff is boring
17:08:03 <planetmaker> there's a reason not to subscribe to flyspray, too
17:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't happen to be native english speaker, do you? ;)
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17:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: when does your steel works appear? ~1850?
17:23:30 *** azaghal_ is now known as azaghal
17:24:06 <andythenorth> sort by intro date :P
17:24:22 <andythenorth> 1843 is the answer :)
17:24:23 <planetmaker> how up to date is that page?
17:24:28 <planetmaker> and how authorative?
17:24:34 <andythenorth> I consider that page the spec
17:24:42 <andythenorth> how accurate the code is wrt to it, I'm not sure
17:24:52 <Belugas> grrrr... a quarter of an hour walk to get there, just to find the ships i wanted to photograph were not there, and what's more, I forgot to put my sd card on the camera
17:24:55 <andythenorth> I do try and keep the website as accurate as possible
17:25:09 <andythenorth> Belugas: at least you didn't miss the photos of them
17:25:25 <andythenorth> I sometimes photographed things then found no film in my camera
17:25:35 <andythenorth> not so good when you're being paid for the pictures :(
17:30:08 <glx> that reminds me when my father was taking the 40th photo on a 36 exposures film
17:30:55 <Eddi|zuHause> there's usually some extra stuff on such a film...
17:31:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and the last photo will be only half ;)
17:31:19 <glx> but the film was not loaded correctly
17:32:13 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... so he did 40 photos on the same spot... that's nasty :p
17:32:31 <Belugas> could lead to cute pictures, though
17:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a movie once
17:32:49 <Belugas> double, triple exposures sometimes are wondeful
17:32:57 <Eddi|zuHause> where a guy made a pilgrimage from hungary to santiago
17:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> and when he arrived there, his camera with all the photos got stolen
17:34:13 <Eddi|zuHause> santiago de compostela
17:34:25 <Belugas> ho.. not chili one...
17:34:36 <glx> saint jacques de compostelle
17:34:47 <Terkhen> when someone wants to walk a lot he goes there
17:34:53 <Belugas> yup, got it now , thanks
17:35:22 <Eddi|zuHause> from hungary that's like 2000km
17:35:43 <Belugas> ell..hungary to santiago, chile is quite a walk too... but you gotta be Jesus for that ;)
17:36:16 <Belugas> on these words, i resume work
17:38:48 <Eddi|zuHause> basically... it was a sad story, and he didn't get his camera back, due to incompetence of the police (the guys watching the video surveillance were "distracted")
17:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> google says close to 3000 km
17:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause> not even an order of magnitude ;)
17:48:58 <beyre83> its booked in for a service
17:49:21 <beyre83> tho they said "if the lcd" has a crack behind the panel they will not fix it
17:49:31 <beyre83> just hope the heat didnt crack the screen
18:01:48 <Nite> can anyone tell whats the purpose for the "go to depot Serviece When Needed" order ?
18:02:23 <planetmaker> it's conditional as opposed to 'go always'
18:02:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: to select exactly which depot the train should go to, to not get lost
18:02:40 <Nite> ... i mean; trians will service without the order too!?
18:02:54 <planetmaker> if a depot is available, yes
18:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: and to not go to depot unnecessary
18:03:18 <beyre83> well if you turn off breakdowns trains dont need servicing
18:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: if a train goes to a random depot, it might not get back from there
18:03:28 <Nite> the goto nearest depot AND when needed is obsolete then
18:04:06 <Nite> (i understand the goto specific depot when needed)
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18:04:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: so what exactly is your question now?
18:05:21 <Nite> can anyone tell whats the purpose for the "go to NEAREST depot Serviece When Needed" order ? because trains would do that without the order too.
18:05:47 <Nite> (an yeah its pedantic ;) )
18:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: but you know where that train is when it starts that order, so you can make sure it goes to depot _after_ unloading and not before
18:06:23 <Rubidium> or... somewhere along the route after that "nearest" depot from the previous order
18:06:43 <Nite> ok - so the train wil look ahead in the order list?
18:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> or for load balancing several depots dirgectly behind a waypoint
18:07:52 <Rubidium> Nite: no, it will stop its automatic-at-any-time going to a depot if there is at least one depot order in the order list
18:08:28 <Eddi|zuHause> conclusion: there are plenty of uses for the order. they might not be immediately obvious, but they exist.
18:08:31 <Nite> that explains rubidium thx vm!
18:09:06 <Nite> i did not know that a depot order changes the autoservice behaviour ...
18:11:09 <Nite> until now i made forced depot/service at end of every run ... (or so)
18:14:31 <Nite> how do i get trains to visit different depots when they have anearset depot order and share the same orders ... is it possibel
18:14:32 <beyre83> how do i turn on "autoclean" serverside?
18:15:09 <Nite> last question may need ingame example ...
18:15:52 <Rubidium> Nite: pathfinder penalties
18:16:09 <Nite> ok, which says nothing to me ...
18:16:22 <Rubidium> beyre83: using the "setting" command (console)
18:17:04 <Nite> some config file pathfinder penalties?
18:23:03 <Nite> oddly it works with pathsignals (pathsig and two depots behind AND depot order)
18:23:19 <Nite> trains will enter a free depot when the other is in use)
18:23:52 <Nite> without pathfinder penalties
18:25:03 * Rubidium argues that is not true
18:26:31 <Nite> it worked in one example but not in another
18:26:54 <Rubidium> there are definitely pathfinder penalties that influence the decision to go to a particular depot
18:27:10 <Nite> however i cannot see ingame which depot a train "has in mind" and when
18:27:57 <Nite> rather complicated - something to fiddle with :)
18:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a patch where you can ctrl+click on the line where it says "heading to depot"
18:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and it should jump to that location
18:46:02 <Nite> in my case i want that trains are searching for next "free" depot, like the do for station platforms ...
18:48:01 <Nite> ...someone mentioned having the depots exactly like stations but only for servicing purposes ...
18:50:41 <Nite> the awkward solution is having a station in front of depot sending trains nonstop through it before going to nearest depot
18:57:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that's called a waypoint
18:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's called "go-via", not "non-stop"
19:07:38 <Nite> yeah but a station used as waypoint "as in oleskool" so the train does the same type of selecting its route
19:10:47 <beyre83> mmm Rubidium you type the cmd to list commands
19:10:55 <beyre83> but it lists to many to display all at once
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19:18:03 <planetmaker> scroll up using cursor
19:18:59 <glx> there's a filter too (but maybe for settings only)
19:25:20 <beyre83> europe + citys dosnt work :p
19:25:27 <beyre83> just get some holding page
19:26:30 <beyre83> with the ending domain .fi
19:28:53 <frosch123> beyre83: that is the job of the author who uploaded it there
19:29:13 <beyre83> surely dosent anyone else maintain the list?
19:29:18 <beyre83> to purge broken links
19:30:00 <planetmaker> Terkhen: bananas is no wiki ;-)
19:30:03 <frosch123> the list is not created/maintained by anyone in particular. every author manages his own stuff
19:30:26 <Terkhen> I assumed it was the same old question :)
19:37:42 <Nite> wow just expierioenced that there Are multilane waypoints ... X)
19:41:16 <Eddi|zuHause> about half a year
19:42:25 <Nite> ... what else could i have overlooked ...
19:42:48 <Eddi|zuHause> plenty of stuff, based on your previous questions :p
19:43:36 <VVG> that reminds me, you can't place a waypoint right between a station and another waypoint without ctrl clicking
19:44:40 <Nite> otherwise it would be you cant multitrack waypoint withour ctrl ...
19:47:44 <Nite> give me soem examples about "planty" Eddi
19:50:02 <VVG> changelog is a great place for such info :p
19:58:11 <planetmaker> hm, on what basis is the icon colour for companies chosen in the multiplayer join lobby? The icon colour of the "blob"?
19:58:38 <planetmaker> or s/colour/sprite/
19:59:13 <planetmaker> I get the "high profit" icon for newly founded companies which do nothing, thus run debt
19:59:31 <planetmaker> (but still have their intial money / loan)
20:00:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so what do I need to know about Iron Ore -> Blacksmith?
20:00:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the opinion is to add the steel mill in between
20:00:33 <planetmaker> iron ore -> steel mill -> black smith
20:00:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: basically since the 13th century, "raw iron" was created in foundrys, separate from the smiths
20:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that was HIS opinion
20:01:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and i told him it was a shortened and less efficient cargo chain, and "realism" sometimes needs to step back
20:02:10 <planetmaker> that is NO argument! ;-)
20:03:01 <andythenorth> it's a combined "Foundry + Smithy" :)
20:03:13 <andythenorth> it would be called "Foundry", but there already is one, so....meh
20:03:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: call the other one "steel works" or something?
20:03:48 <andythenorth> "Metal Bashing Industry"
20:03:49 <Nite> not a question of relaism - mor of complexity
20:03:51 <andythenorth> "Pressing Plant"
20:05:00 <beyre83> wssnt there a steal mill anyway?
20:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "steel furnace"?
20:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the "realistic" point is that there was a huge technology jump in ore processing around 1850
20:07:09 <Terkhen> just write a note at the blacksmith description; "we have a magic wand that turns iron into steel"
20:08:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the finery forge uses wood (charcoal) as a fuel
20:08:32 <andythenorth> that is an interesting variation from coal
20:08:41 <Nite> ... soem ppl complained about "everything" needing supplies to worfk and switched back to ecs ...
20:08:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, that could be interesting
20:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> coal wasn't really that interesting pre-industrialisation
20:09:31 <Nite> supplies should be a booster but not necessarry ... "we" thought ...
20:09:46 <planetmaker> that's what happens in FIRS...
20:10:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: what does that have to do with the discussion?
20:11:00 <Nite> nothing i just htought i mention it ... just a BTW
20:11:00 <andythenorth> Nite: did anyone actually test if supplies are necessary?
20:11:27 <Nite> well yeah they playtested it
20:12:03 <andythenorth> are they necessary? I forget...
20:12:40 <Terkhen> IIRC it was explained in the parameters
20:12:40 <Nite> yes many industries (not all) produce veryvery low without supplies
20:12:59 <Terkhen> that's expected behaviour with clustering industries
20:13:41 <Terkhen> use trucks to group their cargo :)
20:13:44 <andythenorth> it's been considered to restore the default production increase behaviour
20:13:49 <andythenorth> however I don't like it :P
20:13:57 <andythenorth> and no-one else has coded a solution
20:14:10 <VVG> in r965 supplies were a requirement for industry to stay alive i recall. but i think it was changed to just a booster around 0.2 mb
20:15:04 <andythenorth> there have been various methods :)
20:15:22 <Nite> it is just a booster but its necessarry in a way that without booster they produce only a scrap.
20:15:48 <VVG> i've played through two FIRS games where supplies were a requirement, both had more than 1k trains happily running around
20:15:51 <beyre83> mmm 115mb's of stuff to download in ottd
20:16:00 <Nite> maybee a param 4 it could help ...
20:16:09 <andythenorth> Nite: so the game is about transporting cargo yes / no?
20:16:22 <VVG> so, i assure it's ok to have them as requirement, if anyone asks me :)
20:17:27 <Nite> no it isnt at all andythenorth it is about guessing "who the hell produces steel" ...
20:18:22 <andythenorth> steel mill, innit :)
20:18:30 <Nite> well best if you can have it your taste = parameter ...
20:18:40 <VVG> since some time ago there is a nice cargo map feature, so no more guessing what goes where
20:18:55 <__ln__> interesting nasa test pilot stuff on arte right now
20:19:40 <andythenorth> out of interest....how do supplies work in ECS?
20:19:43 <Nite> i meant that guessing comical :/
20:19:59 <andythenorth> I have never successfully played an ECS game, only read the wiki instructions
20:20:06 <Nite> the ecs has no supplies but vehicles
20:20:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have never come as far as distributing vehicles, but i heard it was very fragile, if you missed a delivery, the whole chain could die
20:20:39 <Nite> vehicles act as boost but industries also produce good without them
20:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like production dropping to 1/10th
20:21:24 <Terkhen> you can easily know who produces steel looking at the industry chain window
20:21:32 <andythenorth> there is no steel any more anyway
20:21:38 <andythenorth> we consolidated it to metal :)
20:21:48 <Nite> raw materials can dry out in ECS so ore or coal out -> steel out -> vehicles almost out
20:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause> metal = steel or aluminium
20:22:30 <andythenorth> VVG: they were pretty much identical in the chains, so we put them together. saves a cargo slot
20:23:07 <Terkhen> I should play a FIRS game, I'll probably won't recognize it... I haven't played since july IIRC
20:23:19 <andythenorth> it would be nice to know if it's fun :)
20:23:24 <andythenorth> I haven't played for a while
20:23:31 <planetmaker> I just recently found fruit plantations. I was nicely and positively surprised :-)
20:23:44 <planetmaker> I wondered about trees on fields ;-)
20:23:50 <planetmaker> and found out it's an industry :-)
20:23:51 <Nite> i didnt go into it deeply, was also put of to supply everything with supplies
20:24:02 <VVG> do farms still start at production 8-20?
20:24:25 <Nite> and they staa that low without - again - farmsupplies
20:24:30 <andythenorth> VVG: yes, but you'll get lots together :)
20:24:34 <planetmaker> FIRS somehow is one of the newgrf nearly always active when I test around also other stuff ;-)
20:25:09 <Nite> first tier no supplies or anything would it be for me
20:25:25 <andythenorth> "Someone" should fix the industry production cheat so it's compatible with production callback
20:25:34 <andythenorth> it only needs to modify the production multiplier
20:25:45 <andythenorth> it's probably just 'yet another weird bit of industry code'
20:25:51 <andythenorth> frosch123 had a look a while ago
20:28:45 <frosch123> you need to add some helper functions, and a bit of magic in the gui. not much but boring :)
20:29:25 <Nite> hmm there was no magic yet in ottd ... really something missing
20:29:35 <frosch123> btw. it is not only about compatiblity with "production callback". it is completely broken for non-smooth economy :p
20:29:50 <planetmaker> make a newgrf. Produce magic balls, wands, wizard hats...
20:29:57 <planetmaker> vehicles like flying carpets...
20:30:14 <Terkhen> toyland has some magic too
20:30:21 <planetmaker> houses like floating bubbles
20:30:27 <planetmaker> Terkhen: of course :-)
20:30:35 <planetmaker> and only few play it :-(
20:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the openttd code has plenty of magic
20:31:03 <Nite> wel it makes aour eyes explode
20:31:03 <planetmaker> and newgrf disable themselves all by default in toyland. why ever.
20:31:10 <Terkhen> I'll keep playing it until andy makes HEQS incompatible with sugar, toffee and stuff like that
20:31:11 * frosch123 is more impressed about 'bags' of sweets, 'tons' of toffee, ...
20:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the magic.grf needs a parameter that sets to "magic" or "more magic" :p
20:31:50 <frosch123> but imo ogfx+ should replace the cola wells with coffee field or so
20:32:29 <Nite> or just with supplies or magic
20:33:03 * andythenorth considers making all FIRS industries require magic
20:34:05 <Terkhen> you could merge all supplies into a single cargo: stuff
20:34:11 <Terkhen> but magic also sounds good
20:35:10 <Nite> yeah stuff, supplies, things and magic ... and crap ...
20:36:41 * Terkhen wonders how they could ban such a pleasant person from openttdcoop
20:38:30 <SmatZ> well, he behaves nicely now
20:39:40 <Terkhen> really not that much :P
20:40:23 <SmatZ> so you were ironical? :p
20:41:00 <SmatZ> I didn't really read what he wrote :p
20:41:08 <SmatZ> still better than he used to :)
20:41:53 <SmatZ> maybe I should stop typing, it's becoming impossible to decipher what I wrote :p
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20:44:10 <planetmaker> any good proposal how to re-write a shell variable from "png pcx wav" to "png|pcx|wav"?
20:44:32 <planetmaker> FILE_SRC_RE := $(shell echo $(FILE_SRC_EXTENSIONS) | tr -s "[:space:]" "|") <-- adds a trailing | which is not quite what I need
20:45:32 <SmatZ> maybe bash has some special syntax for that
20:45:38 <SmatZ> it can do a lot itself :)
20:45:45 <SmatZ> but to be portable, I would stick with sed...
20:46:12 <planetmaker> SmatZ: that resulted in Source extensions (RE): |nfo tnfo
20:46:23 <planetmaker> using FILE_SRC_RE := $(shell echo $(FILE_SRC_EXTENSIONS) | sed -E "s/[:space:]/|/")
20:46:51 <SmatZ> [22:46:11] <planetmaker> SmatZ: that resulted in Source extensions (RE): |nfo tnfo <== huh?
20:47:07 <SmatZ> I don't know what are you talking about :)
20:48:02 <planetmaker> very good point! thank you :-)
20:49:03 <frosch123> i spend 1 hour today to figure out how pipe stdin to stdout while inserting something at the beginning and something at the end... in the end it was too easy :p
20:49:11 <SmatZ> is Konversation trying to be outsmart me?
20:49:36 <SmatZ> results in a search link
20:50:14 <frosch123> [[ might do some wiki link :p
20:50:24 <frosch123> check your input/output replacements :)
20:50:32 <SmatZ> [22:47:08] <frosch123> [[:space:]] <== pasting this
20:50:47 <SmatZ> yeah, it has some strange default setting
20:51:03 <frosch123> iirc there are some defaults like [lmtf:bla] resulting in some link
20:51:26 * SmatZ learns new things every day :)
20:52:40 <frosch123> i once configured a rule for fs#123 resulting in some link
20:52:54 <frosch123> but the result was just too bloatet
20:53:57 <SmatZ> wallyweb is like, 65 years old? wow :)
20:55:58 <Razmir> Hi, can someone give me advice please? I did everything step by step from compiling manual here: http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_MinGW Everything seemed OK (no errors), but when I want to compile OpenTTD, "configure" can't find zlib: "checking zlib... not found"...
20:56:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I might adjust the Blacksmith a little
20:56:24 <andythenorth> or is that fooling with cargo chains?
20:57:09 <frosch123> Razmir: get openttd_useful.zip
20:57:30 <planetmaker> :-) andythenorth you mean adding an industry there and having the blacksmith accept metal?
20:57:41 <Rubidium> frosch123: that's not quite for mingw
20:57:45 <Razmir> I compiled zlib in MinGW
20:57:47 <andythenorth> no, I mean changing the name of blacksmith, and maybe swapping coal for wood
20:57:54 <andythenorth> I have to think about the latter part
20:58:06 * Rubidium hopes Terkhen can help Razmir :)
20:58:34 * andythenorth ponders how cargo chain display in-game could be connected to minimap
20:58:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: btw. some certain fs task could need a testgrf for nforenum+grfcodec+ottd testing
20:58:52 * SmatZ recommends andythenorth to ask Alberth
20:59:00 <planetmaker> oh, what do you rename the blacksmith to, andythenorth ?
20:59:14 <SmatZ> andythenorth: maybe that was place with too little buttons...
20:59:27 <frosch123> the cargo chain display is already connected to the minimap
20:59:33 <planetmaker> well. why not? :-)
20:59:44 <Terkhen> Razmir: is zlib.h in the C:\MinGW\include folder?
20:59:55 <andythenorth> frosch123: which fs task?
21:00:04 <SmatZ> andythenorth: well, some people open the map to find industries between which they can transport cargo - and the ind. chain is useful there
21:00:06 <planetmaker> andythenorth: without. In trunk
21:00:16 <frosch123> the one with "i have a test grf" but no attachment :)
21:00:26 <planetmaker> oh. andythenorth your FISH ticket
21:00:37 <planetmaker> with the water classes
21:00:42 <andythenorth> yeah, I reverted the changes and didn't save the grf
21:00:46 <andythenorth> I'll remake it tomorrow
21:01:13 <planetmaker> always attach test grfs immediately to the fs task
21:01:29 <planetmaker> or save at least the changes as diff
21:02:19 <andythenorth> I learnt that :P
21:02:27 <andythenorth> it's a trivial change, I'll do it now
21:11:22 <planetmaker> it should match only on the two extensions I give...
21:11:31 <planetmaker> but I seem to miss something
21:13:38 <frosch123> [png|pcx] -> \(png\|pcx\)
21:14:52 <planetmaker> :) thank you very much again! :-)
21:15:10 <frosch123> you escapes look weird in the first [ ] too
21:15:51 <planetmaker> but they work cross-platform
21:16:28 <planetmaker> somehow some linux don't like unescaped _-/
21:16:54 <planetmaker> my bash / make here is fine with both
21:17:17 <frosch123> oh, you use -E, maybe then (png|pcx) suffices
21:19:02 <frosch123> hmm, can someone imagine a c macro "RAW(b)" which expands to "b" for b != 0, but "'\\', 0" for b == 0 :o
21:19:28 <frosch123> i.e. just copies "b", but escapes "0" :)
21:20:37 <frosch123> i guess not possible :)
21:20:40 <andythenorth> if wood was used as fuel....'wood' or 'lumber'?
21:21:02 <andythenorth> i.e. forest -> wood -> forge
21:21:10 <andythenorth> or forest -> sawmill -> lumber -> forge
21:25:14 * Razmir thanks Terkhen for his help
21:25:27 <Terkhen> thank me once it works :P
21:25:50 <Razmir> well, thanks for trying :)
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21:26:38 <glx> Razmir: you ran make install after zlib compilation ?
21:27:40 <Terkhen> glx: ./configure finds zlib with trunk checked out with mercurial, fails with 1.0.4 source manually downloaded
21:28:15 <Terkhen> indeed, I'll do further tests
21:32:31 <Rubidium> nah, some "search paths" got added to trunk's config.lib
21:33:25 <Terkhen> I see, I only checked for changes in configure :)
21:34:15 <Terkhen> then it should only be a matter of changing the prefixes at the tutorial
21:34:17 <andythenorth> designing cargo chains for early games is....tricky
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21:41:09 <glx> Razmir: so it's installed in mingw install
21:46:17 <andythenorth> wood for fuel doesn't particularly need a sawmill
21:49:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... you don't usually burn whole logs :p
21:50:15 <andythenorth> but wood cutters might chop kindling in the wood?
21:50:43 <andythenorth> in the fairy tales, the wood cutter is always coming back from the forest with firewood when the wolf turns up (or whatever)
21:50:54 <andythenorth> he's never on his way to the sawmill with a forty foot log
21:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling the woodcutter in the americanized version has a different cultural connotation than the "Förster" in the germann fairy tale
21:56:08 <andythenorth> I could (annoyingly) randomise the acceptance between coal and wood
21:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if it should be wood or processed wood
21:58:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but leaving out coal should be fine
21:59:45 <andythenorth> I could randomise it according to build date
21:59:49 <andythenorth> but again...annoying?
22:00:42 <andythenorth> it could be consistent according to build date?
22:01:19 <andythenorth> I think it's annoying when you build a whole chain without checking acceptance, then find the chain isn't what you planned
22:01:30 <andythenorth> so varying acceptance is bad
22:06:54 <beyre83> intresting Eddi|zuHause
22:07:05 <beyre83> my screen problem has gotten worse since i photographed it
22:07:12 <beyre83> even tho its been turned off and unpluged
22:07:28 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
22:12:42 <dihedral> you remind me of my mother - she claimed her tv had a better picture ever since she bought that new remote
22:12:59 <beyre83> dihedral: i have photographic evidence
22:13:04 <beyre83> that shows its spreading
22:15:11 <beyre83> i can provide the photo's if you wanna see
22:15:39 <beyre83> well then dont say i am imgaining it then
22:15:48 <beyre83> because i have the evidence to back up its getting worse
22:16:10 <dihedral> i never said you had no evidence!
22:16:28 * Terkhen now understands a lot of confusing things about the old method
22:16:30 <dihedral> can you please take stuff with a smile??
22:16:40 <beyre83> but compairing me to your mother?
22:16:52 * dihedral tends to his ignore list
22:19:04 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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22:28:29 * fonsinchen tends to ignore her list.
22:29:10 <Eddi|zuHause> damn nick colours!
22:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i just thought frosch123 said that
22:32:37 <frosch123> only because of the f ?
22:33:03 <Rubidium> nah, also the o, s, c and h
22:33:38 <frosch123> actually, i never knew my colour, just left the default :)
22:34:51 <SmatZ> you can change your colour?
22:35:38 <SmatZ> I woudl prefer dark blue
22:35:50 <Rubidium> everyone's light gray! :)
22:37:43 <SmatZ> hmm not long time ago I was using 1600x1200 on my 21" CRT
22:37:48 <SmatZ> now I am using 1024x768...
22:38:02 <SmatZ> either my eyes got worse, or the monitor is going to die :p
22:38:21 <SmatZ> the picture is hard to read in higher resolutions now
22:38:43 <Rubidium> maybe X thinks it's a LCD monitor?
22:39:02 <Rubidium> and does that cleartype or whatever it's called trick
22:39:29 <SmatZ> though I have 150Hz this way - only 85Hz @1600x1200
22:40:08 <SmatZ> it's badly readable only in the centre
22:40:46 <SmatZ> it cost ~500E few years ago
22:42:18 <frosch123> oh, two years ago i saw an offer on some pinboard at university: 14'' crt for 50 € :p
22:45:35 <SmatZ> I should sell all the computer "junk" I have before it gets really worthless...
22:45:58 <SmatZ> 2400+ AthlonXP, nVidia 7600GT AGP, ...
22:46:07 <SmatZ> MB died in that computer
22:46:22 <frosch123> keep the stuff which you can hardly get in new, like connectors for serial ports or so :)
22:46:32 <SmatZ> (not talking about those various ISA cards...)
22:46:49 <dihedral> what did you just mention of 'really worthless'?
22:46:59 <frosch123> or scsi controllers
22:47:16 <SmatZ> I got several internal ZIP100 drives
22:47:35 <frosch123> why did you take several of them :o
22:48:08 <SmatZ> whooping 400MB of capacity ;0
22:48:13 <frosch123> SmatZ: do you need some media for them? original iomega, still packaged?
22:48:19 <frosch123> i have around 10 :p
22:48:32 <SmatZ> frosch123: I have some, too :)
22:48:41 <SmatZ> if you want to get rid of them... I would take it :)
22:48:42 * Rubidium only has some CDs (the ones that came with my laptop)
22:49:09 <SmatZ> I would need one "slim" CD for his old (Pentium 133) notebook :p
22:49:22 <SmatZ> the drive died after I tried to boot some live distro...
22:49:27 <SmatZ> a lot of seeking probably
22:49:49 <Rubidium> network boot rules :)
22:49:58 <SmatZ> it has no network card :(
22:50:32 <SmatZ> I used to run TTDPatch there
22:50:35 <Rubidium> oh... then you need such PCMCIA network card and whether it can boot from that remains to be seen
22:56:48 <SmatZ> I haven't had such computer :)
22:57:14 <frosch123> does not look like a xt keyboard, rather older
22:57:41 <Rubidium> by my memories it must've been the 1985 model PC-7000 of Sharp
22:58:10 <SmatZ> I would say it looks like XT keyboard, it has only F1-F10, no cursor keys...
22:58:22 <SmatZ> but my experience is zero, I have only theory :p
22:58:30 <ccfreak2k> Interesting menu key on the bottom right.
22:58:57 <frosch123> SmatZ: but iirc it lacks some stuff from the xt keyboard
23:00:23 <SmatZ> seems to be the same, with a bit different layout
23:01:35 <frosch123> oops, i confused xt and at :s
23:02:21 <frosch123> esc at numblock is at
23:02:49 * Rubidium wonders what he actually did on the machine though
23:03:12 <frosch123> also the huge return and rightshift is at
23:03:33 <SmatZ> AT keyboard is what we use now :)
23:03:52 <frosch123> except the position of the f-keys it fits completely the image in by book
23:04:19 <SmatZ> frosch123: some extended AT?
23:04:44 <SmatZ> what is the advantage of MF II over AT?
23:04:49 <frosch123> yes, at and mf ii are compatible
23:05:32 <frosch123> at has no f11, f12, and no additional cursor block etc
23:05:55 <frosch123> basically only those keys without the e2 extended codes
23:06:59 <SmatZ> but my other docs don't
23:07:24 * frosch123 just wanted to link wiki
23:07:31 <SmatZ> but those are quite old, from early 90's
23:07:38 <SmatZ> maybe the terminology changed since then
23:08:21 <frosch123> well, i had a mf ii keyboard, which had a switch for at/xt on the back :)
23:08:49 <SmatZ> yeah, I got that keyboard too :)
23:09:28 <SmatZ> frosch123: I had that very same link open :)
23:12:55 <SmatZ> somehow I thought there is only XT/AT
23:13:00 <SmatZ> but there is more than that :)
23:13:20 <SmatZ> I just skipped the headline "enhanced keyboard"
23:13:27 <SmatZ> so I thought it belongs to AT :)
23:13:53 <frosch123> well, they basically add more useless keys while keeping the useless keys from before
23:14:31 <SmatZ> I was surprised when a "MAIL" key started Thunderbird in Linux
23:14:53 <SmatZ> and some "multimedia" keyboards have like 20 keys for "play, stop, next, previous, ..."
23:15:07 <frosch123> yeah, i know noone who uses those keys
23:15:34 <SmatZ> few years ago there were keyboards with "sleep" and "poweroff" buttons
23:15:46 <SmatZ> and people were pressing those keys to each other
23:15:47 <frosch123> yup, just using such a keyboard :p
23:16:31 <SmatZ> it happened to me someone turned off my computer
23:16:49 <frosch123> after the second time something fall on the "poweroff" button, i glued a paper carton over them :p
23:16:49 * Rubidium uses the "eject cd" of those "media" buttons
23:17:03 * Rubidium also ejects himself from this conversation
23:17:23 <glx> these 2 keys don't work on win7, but on winXP I told windows to ask me what to do
23:18:15 <frosch123> they don't work in win7? does that mean ms removed support for them because too many were annoyed?
23:18:57 <glx> or I didn't find where to configure that
23:19:30 <frosch123> well, not working by default is impessive enough :)
23:19:50 <glx> ha no, I disabled them because there's no "ask me" option
23:20:28 <glx> so for my usage they don't work
23:20:52 <glx> especially where they are located (above print screen and pause)
23:21:22 <frosch123> yeah, the useless keys keep to stick together :p
23:21:52 <glx> I use pause (windows-pause is a useful shortcut)
23:22:10 <frosch123> system settings or so? right?
23:22:58 <glx> and ctrl-pause to break compilation in MSVC
23:23:19 <frosch123> he, that is a dos hotkey for ctrl+c :p
23:24:33 <SmatZ> Scroll Lock? Sys Rq? Break?
23:25:02 * SmatZ tests if ScrollLock works
23:25:02 <frosch123> interestingly all lock-keys are useless :p
23:25:17 <SmatZ> true, I am only angry when NumLock is off
23:25:25 <SmatZ> which is for some reason by default at linux
23:25:25 <frosch123> scrollock stops console output in linux
23:25:41 <SmatZ> indeed, scrolllock works
23:25:51 <frosch123> same as ctrl+s or so
23:25:58 <SmatZ> sysrq should be useful for kernel debugging
23:26:13 <frosch123> SmatZ: numlock state is set somewhere in /etc
23:27:26 <SmatZ> reminds me of something, yes :)
23:29:52 <frosch123> so does ctrl+alt+sysrq f save you from tb posting one of his favorite images?
23:30:47 <frosch123> giant screenshots of 2kx2k maps :)
23:31:23 <glx> frosch123: not that big :)
23:31:46 <glx> mapgen heightmap are nice too
23:32:03 <SmatZ> I have few times considered turning off swap - system gets too sluggish when it starts swapping
23:32:14 <SmatZ> so it might be better to let OOM killer do its job :p
23:32:15 <frosch123> @calc 2048 * 64 * 2048*32 * 4 / 1024 / 1024 / 1024
23:32:27 <frosch123> 32 gb as decompressed realcolor
23:34:33 <SmatZ> given subcoord is only 0-15
23:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the subcoord grid is not 1 pixel
23:48:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more like two left and one up
23:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (or similar in other directions)
continue to next day ⏵
