IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-09-16
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00:57:20 <LunarWolf> how to sweep away the font, color GUI in blue because of the barely visible shadow on the bright blue background is stupid
01:00:46 <NCommander> so crazy question, when building a rail network, is it better to have one train hit multiple stations (not full loading, all the same cargo), or go from each station in a point to point fashion?
01:01:07 <NCommander> I have condition orders that if a train gets full, it runs non-stop to the sawmill
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01:50:17 * NCommander tries something crazy with his orders
01:55:55 <NCommander> I've managed to get my trains to wait until they are at least 50 percent loaded before leaving a station
02:00:22 <trebuchet> NCommander: what if there isn't anything to load, do they just wait?
02:01:03 <trebuchet> your workings are just waiting around, what if they get pissed and start a union
02:07:40 <NCommander> trebuchet: well, its no worse than if its on full load
02:08:11 <NCommander> I have two passenger stations, but one is under-performing right now, so I set it just to load, then I put a condition order to make sure that train goes back to that station if the load is >50
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02:35:17 <ccfreak2k> trebuchet, paid to sit and wait? I know at least a few people on IRC that do that!
02:35:28 <NCommander> It doesn't quite work perfectly
02:35:41 <NCommander> sometimes the train stays in the station, and sometimes it leaves the station trying to get back
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04:50:31 <SmatZ> I really shouldn't sleep in the afternoon
04:50:41 <SmatZ> because then I am unusable for the rest of the day
04:50:47 <SmatZ> and I can't sleep at night...
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05:27:38 <TruePikachu> Any chance of getting the music to work under Linux with a hardware synth?
05:28:21 <TruePikachu> I read that timidity is needed, but that's a software synth, and the game is already slow enough
05:29:03 <TruePikachu> I have the sound card configured to work with MIDI through aplaymidi on port 17:0
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05:37:33 <TruePikachu> TomyLobo: Do you know how to get a hardware synth working with OTTD music on Linux?
05:38:12 <TomyLobo> am i your last straw? :)
05:38:22 <TruePikachu> You're the only one here...
05:38:35 <TruePikachu> I'm checking the source right now...
05:39:07 <TruePikachu> I read that timidity is needed, but that is worse than even a software synth; the game runs slow enough as is
05:41:23 <TruePikachu> Hmm...some sort of 'extmidi' driver that hates Allegro
05:43:51 <TruePikachu> I can't really make any sense out of this all...I should wait for the dev who wrote this...
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05:53:48 <TruePikachu> Kurimus: Have experience with MIDI under OTTD?
05:54:51 <TruePikachu> FS#4128 added for issue. Darn Linux with hardware synth...
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07:43:25 <norbert79> Good morning planetmaker! How are you guys this morning?
07:54:17 <planetmaker> not bad. i hope you're fine, too :-)
08:01:50 <TrueBrain> awwhh, our traffic is back to normal :(
08:02:05 <dihedral> guess you were enjoying that peek TrueBrain
08:02:14 <TrueBrain> whouldn't every good sysop?
08:02:28 <dihedral> only if it can be handled :-D
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08:03:04 <TrueBrain> we got 6 times more unique visitors and generated 6 times more bandwidth :D
08:03:15 <TrueBrain> (over the whole of yesterday)
08:03:44 <dihedral> that'll teach the 95/5 bandwidth cost :-D
08:05:13 <TrueBrain> 1.5M people downloaded a release... not to shabby
08:07:11 <dihedral> and that's just downloading the binary - what about the hits on bananas?
08:11:16 <norbert79> Hmm, does this 1.5M downloads cover sepertate downloads based by IP or ammount of files?
08:11:34 <norbert79> planetmaker: Thank you, fine! I am just about catch up with some of my office things :)
08:12:14 <norbert79> TrueBrain: I am just asking, since I have updated all my binaries, and that takes win32, win9x, win64, linux 32bit, 64 bit, OS2
08:12:59 <planetmaker> 1.5M downloads of 1.0.x releases? or overall?
08:13:47 <TrueBrain> 1.5M downloads on the release
08:13:59 <ccfreak2k> Who still uses Windows 95 or 98 or ME?
08:14:00 <TrueBrain> 1.5M downloads totally on all releases
08:14:03 <norbert79> And from 1.5 M different IP's?
08:14:06 <TrueBrain> who still uses Windows?
08:14:20 <norbert79> ccfreak2k: I have some relatives who still use Windows 98 because of an older machine
08:15:34 <norbert79> and many governments in Hungary are still on older Windows... This doesn't mean, that they play during office time :)
08:15:56 <norbert79> so yes, in Hungary Win9X is still present
08:17:29 <ccfreak2k> Government entities without Windows NT? Scary.
08:17:49 <norbert79> ccfreak2k: Many used not be online years back
08:18:10 <norbert79> It was more typical having seperate machines, maximum LAN
08:18:32 <norbert79> Of course that changed, but some offices still have seperate machines
08:18:59 <norbert79> Or my lawyer, he has an advanced machine at home with Internet but in the office he just has a seperate PC without any LAN/WAN access
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08:41:12 <VVG> ShowDropDownMenu in dropdown.cpp seem to have mixed up comments for disabled_mask and hidden_mask params.
09:17:13 * beyre83 says hello to, norbert79
09:17:47 * norbert79 says hello, hello, hello to beyre83 (damn echo) :]
09:18:17 <beyre83> and am schocked that win9x is still in use in hungary
09:18:34 <norbert79> It's damn rare, but still present
09:19:13 <beyre83> i have a fully licenced copy of win95 i picked out of a skip
09:19:46 <beyre83> a company was throwing it out like 8yrs ago
09:19:52 <beyre83> so i helped my self :p
09:21:15 <norbert79> :) I once seen a copy of the floppy version of Windows 95 OEM
09:21:28 <beyre83> i had a copy on floppy
09:21:47 <norbert79> I have both OEM and OSR2 :)
09:21:49 <beyre83> it wasnt half a bitch if a disc croupted
09:21:51 <norbert79> both hungarian copies
09:22:41 * norbert79 is in a 'Little Big Adventure' mood, and is shocked to see, that the full game is available for legal whole copy, including add-ons... No wonder, the company went bankrupt without successor like Trilobyte :(
09:23:26 * beyre83 has over 8gb of dosgames
09:24:20 <norbert79> beyre83: Both games in full available, including runtime enviroment for Windows use... Still gives me goosebumps, the game is so damn good
09:24:59 <norbert79> btw I don't think you could top me, I have TONS for DOS, also lot in original
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09:25:31 <norbert79> 7th Guest, 11th Hour, Duke Nukem 3D Registered/Plutonium Pack, Steel Panthers, Commanche, Panzer General...
09:25:52 <norbert79> Strike Commander, the best flight sim in 1993
09:26:15 <norbert79> LBA 1-2, huhh, tons
09:27:01 <norbert79> I just loved DOS, I do think though I could only play the part of all available one
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09:27:53 <norbert79> So did I love TT, back it fit to 2-3 floppies, and after 2005 every vehicle of mine company went crazy... :)
09:28:28 <norbert79> Had to replace ALL, since it was just sending it to service station, and when they came out, they got their request renwed immideatly
09:28:44 <norbert79> so none of them could do anything
09:28:47 <blathijs> norbert79: I still have a Windows 95 OEM on 30 floppies in my desk here :-)
09:28:56 <norbert79> blathijs: Cool, lucky one :)
09:29:03 <blathijs> norbert79: I'd be surprised if even half of them still work, of course
09:29:23 <norbert79> I wouldn't... They used Verbatim like floppies
09:29:35 <norbert79> so there is a small chance of having every each of it working
09:29:50 <blathijs> I used my own floppies (I actually created the floppies myself, the Windows was preinstalled)
09:29:54 <Noldo> I remember pirating orignal need for speed
09:30:11 <norbert79> Noldo: :) I loved Screamer more, yet I am also a simulation addict
09:30:20 <norbert79> Noldo: The biggest one I had to copy was GTA1
09:30:40 <Noldo> biggest I tried but gave up was diablo
09:31:01 <Noldo> crc errors made it interesting
09:31:12 <norbert79> yeah, though I used ARJ mainly
09:31:39 <norbert79> RAR was ok, ZIP's were a nightmare, and bad compression ratio back then
09:32:05 <norbert79> I still even have a crack for RAR 2.00 :D
09:32:08 <Eddi|zuHause> what the hell happened to ARJ? i haven't seen one of those in years
09:32:16 <Noldo> the big "innovation" was to pack it to to floppysized packages on hard drive and the copy those to disk
09:32:22 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Still present, but unused
09:32:46 <dihedral> is there a reason why compan.name and company.president_name can be null?
09:32:55 <dihedral> makes it so tedious to get the names
09:33:10 <Noldo> then most of us cycled to the target computer few blocks away and checked with packages were broken and called someone to recopy those
09:33:22 <norbert79> Noldo: Yeah, it was fun :)
09:33:46 <norbert79> My first games on the PC were: North and South, Zak McCracken, Street Rod, Netwars
09:34:33 <norbert79> Ooh, and Defender of Crown... that gave me onehalf :(
09:34:39 <norbert79> luckily badly infected my machine
09:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the first PC game i remember playing was Sokoban
09:35:26 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: My first addictive one was Simcity 1
09:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it fit on ONE disk, with plenty of space for MORE GAMES on that same disk!
09:35:57 <norbert79> wow, sounds funny today, but it was awesome back then :)
09:36:19 <norbert79> Stunts also fit to one floppy having space also for tracks
09:36:47 <norbert79> loved to create maps, I think I still have my edits :)
09:36:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that was where you could build your own tracks with screwdrivers/loops/etc?
09:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that was quite fun
09:37:18 <norbert79> I built a map of 6, called it city, including suburban area, in town, highways, etc...
09:37:30 <norbert79> it was seperated into 6 maps
09:37:41 <norbert79> pretty complicated, like having a roll after a bridge
09:37:47 <norbert79> or a roll after a loop
09:38:22 <Eddi|zuHause> with the slightest touch of a wall you crashed...
09:38:47 <norbert79> and one of the cars had a bug too :)
09:39:23 <norbert79> when it reached max speed after a loop and you didn't release the gas it flew with max speed through the map, and even after turns it didn't get slower
09:40:20 <norbert79> god I just feel I just know too much of all these old games... Maybe I have spent too much time sitting in fornt of the PC? :D
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09:51:02 <Terkhen> I still have 40 floppy disks of windows 95 somewhere
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10:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i had a Windows 95 CD and needed to install it on a computer without CD drive...
10:03:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and the .cab files were 1.7MB
10:03:21 <Rubidium> so you had to find that tool to format floppies that big
10:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, exactly ;)
10:03:35 <Rubidium> and find good enough floppies to actually support that
10:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i had no problem with the floppies...
10:04:29 <Eddi|zuHause> in the end i had 2 empty floppies formatted to this size, and swapped them between the two computers
10:49:25 <beyre83> well you could have 2.xmb flopies
10:49:31 <beyre83> never much support for them tho
10:49:56 <beyre83> anyone remember the panasonic ls120?
10:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> beyre83: those needed special drives
10:50:29 <beyre83> thats what i mean Eddi|zuHause not many 2.xmb drives were around guess they never took off
10:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a ZIP100 drive
10:50:37 <beyre83> tho i had a panasonic ls120 :p
10:50:48 <beyre83> as the disc was smaller
10:51:03 <beyre83> though i did have a zip drive
10:51:04 <SmatZ> and compatible with floppies :)
10:51:13 <SmatZ> I still have several ZIP drives
10:51:23 <beyre83> i have several zip disks
10:51:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i have disks and one external drive
10:51:46 <SmatZ> I installed win95 to that 100MB ZIP drive
10:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: the joy when operating systems didn't need 20GiB of space ;)
10:52:48 <norbert79> aaah, I always wished for one
10:53:02 <beyre83> well i installed win95 off a zip drive, onto a 386sx :p
10:53:18 <beyre83> just took like 15mins to boot
10:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> my ZIP drive is USB, so i think win95 could have some trouble with that ;)
10:53:48 <beyre83> mmm probally win98 be fine tho
10:53:54 <beyre83> as it contains usb drivers :p
10:54:10 <SmatZ> it wouldn't fit on 100MB drive
10:54:25 <beyre83> probally if cut the crap out :)
10:54:50 <beyre83> or span it to multi disc's :)
10:54:53 <beyre83> fine for installing :p
10:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone have a GUI XML editor? [like showing the fields in a spreadsheet or something]
10:55:34 <norbert79> I just love old DOS games, when they go to negative in free EMS memory if you had more, than 32 MB o RAM :D
10:55:37 <beyre83> i have win7 x64 on a usbstick to install it
11:01:44 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but openoffice calcs and recent ms excels are basically XML editors (only one specific XML instance though)
11:09:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i mean i give it an xml and a schema file, and it tries to fit it into something table-like as good as possible
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11:24:06 <VVG> I've been thinking about that vehicle arrivaldeparture sorter i'm trying to make and it doesn't quite feel right to make a wrapper function over already avaible FillTimetableArrivalDepartureTable as that spawns a full table for every vehicle it calculates times for.
11:25:04 <VVG> However, making a separate function wihtout a big table leads to some code duplication.
11:28:43 <dihedral> VVG if you find duplicate code, it's usually a hint that code could go into another function
11:28:48 <dihedral> but that is a cleanup
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11:33:03 <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: usually hints to making a new function with the common calculations, and use that in both functions
11:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> (called refactoring)
11:33:57 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, i beat you to it :-P
11:34:21 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: no, i just wanted to say it in different words ;)
11:35:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the word "refactoring" comes from the distributive law. if you have "ac+bc", you "factor" it into "(a+b)c"
11:36:01 <Eddi|zuHause> as you see, "c" only appears once in that second term, so the duplication is reduced, at the cost of a slightly more complex term
11:36:28 <dihedral> nicely explained :-)
11:37:14 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Pretty nice english skills :)
11:48:04 <norbert79> Yet I am curious how many players OpenTTD might have from some special languages, like african languages or chinese, etc
11:49:06 <norbert79> and it would be also nice being able translating the website and it's news too, including Wiki
11:49:37 <norbert79> ok, forget the part of the Wiki
11:49:59 <norbert79> I couldn't see the flags because of my eye was in the way
11:50:08 <avdg> the wiki translations are still young :)
11:54:17 <Rubidium> the website more or less supports translations, but the translator doesn't support it
11:54:59 <Rubidium> and then there's the problem of visualising the different translations
11:55:06 <norbert79> Rubidium: Pity, I would really participate in that
11:55:38 <avdg> well, these are already available on the wiki
11:55:48 <Rubidium> what flag would simplified chinese get? what flag would traditional chinese get?
11:56:14 <norbert79> Rubidium: Good point... What about wikipedia.org solution?
11:56:36 <norbert79> Rubidium: But this way you could have mentioned german pre 1998 and past 1998 :)
11:56:57 <norbert79> but we could include East German using the GDR flag ;-)
11:57:07 <Rubidium> avdg: those flags basically stink because it doesn't differentiate between traditional and simplified chinese
11:57:31 <avdg> well, how did they fix it
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11:57:50 <Rubidium> avdg: it's not fixed
12:00:41 <Rubidium> and I doubt everyone knows the ISO language code of their language
12:00:56 <avdg> that could be a solutions too
12:02:00 <norbert79> and traditional would be the current flag
12:02:25 <avdg> any more know flag collisions?
12:02:49 <Rubidium> dutch, german, french, english, portuguese, spanish
12:03:13 <Rubidium> are Americans Brittish?
12:03:24 <Rubidium> are Canadians Brittish?
12:03:30 <norbert79> Canadian flag? Come one
12:03:36 <Rubidium> are Swiss speaking all German?
12:03:46 <Rubidium> are Canadian all speaking French?
12:03:48 <norbert79> what about swiss-italin? :)
12:03:49 <planetmaker> norbert79: Norwegian bokmal and Nynorsk?
12:04:05 <glx> Rubidium: don't forget belgians
12:04:08 <Rubidium> or Arabic with its twenty or so dialects
12:04:08 <norbert79> planetmaker: I am not familiar with Norway sorry
12:04:19 <norbert79> Rubidium: Again: German/Swiss flag
12:04:21 <avdg> we just click on the dutch flags
12:04:31 <norbert79> Rubidium: or Italian/Swiss flag
12:05:01 <Rubidium> avdg: and the Wallons like that you associate yourself with the Dutch?
12:05:04 <norbert79> Same for french/canadian
12:05:09 <planetmaker> as ambigeous as now, norbert79
12:05:18 <avdg> well, they click on the french ones
12:05:27 <avdg> and the germans on the german
12:05:40 <norbert79> austrians also click on 'german'
12:05:40 <avdg> not a real conflict asaik
12:05:56 <norbert79> Hoch-Deutsch is still Hoch-Deutsch even in Austria
12:06:11 <planetmaker> except that they talk funny ;-)
12:06:21 <norbert79> I can also do the austrian accent too ;-)
12:06:23 <planetmaker> and have a few funny workds
12:06:50 <glx> french canadian is not french :)
12:07:13 <Rubidium> still, flags are not a good thing to associate languages with
12:07:25 <norbert79> lol, I still doubt, that this would cause a problem
12:07:32 <glx> better use the windows way
12:07:35 <norbert79> and for mixed languages you can just use this flag collage
12:07:40 <Eddi|zuHause> we should define all countries along language borders!
12:07:50 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Thats a bad idea in my opinion
12:08:03 <norbert79> like with hungarians in Romania
12:08:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i was being ironic ;)
12:08:11 <norbert79> in the Transilvania
12:09:01 <norbert79> but you know what experssion is really unspeakable?
12:09:08 <norbert79> "No-more-beer please"
12:09:18 <norbert79> No way I can say that
12:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: you need to put "de_CH" or stuff in the flags...
12:10:53 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that would solve it... glx: Linux tends using the two codes
12:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: yes, but that's as inaccurate as the country flags
12:11:06 <norbert79> glx: I also prefer the Linux method, using two codes
12:11:14 <glx> but it's the language name at least
12:11:22 <norbert79> in my case it's simple: hu_HU
12:11:34 <norbert79> but there could be hu_RO
12:12:12 <norbert79> and with this you can solve also immigration-type of languages, like we have many chinese in Hungary, and their langauge might have already changed a bit
12:12:43 <glx> they already have at least 2 languages in their own country :)
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12:15:34 * dihedral is having trouble with uint64 in java again :-P
12:18:40 <beyre83> lol someone dosnt like the fact i boght there company
12:18:48 <beyre83> i got a message saying it was being sold off
12:19:02 <beyre83> and now there moaning
12:20:38 <Markk> Keep the customer updated and notify him/her when something about the case has changed. But the most important thing is not to take anything personal. The customer is not angry with me, just nu the situation. I would try to calm the customer down with the information I have.
12:21:09 <Markk> But now when it's here, does it sound good?
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12:38:17 <peter1138> unsigned types in java? haha
12:40:40 <Comet> Hey guys I was wondering where is the button to fund a new industry. Thanx in advance ^^
12:40:57 <Goulp> in the industry menu from toolbar
12:42:02 <Goulp> the industry icon in the main toolbar
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12:42:58 <Rubidium> peter1138: char seems unsigned :)
12:47:10 <peter1138> Yes Goulp, I use irssi.
12:48:24 <Goulp> just want to know the client, to check if its able to send some random automatic contents
12:50:22 <Goulp> coz its not the first time i read "unsigned types in java? haha"
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13:05:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, peter1138 is a bot that says random things...
13:09:14 * Goulp knows that behind bots, a program is alive
13:22:13 <peter1138> Are you suggesting I'm not alive?
13:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause> # Hallo (Hallo) ich bin dein Ohrwurm (dein Ohrwurm)
13:32:25 <Belugas> [08:06] <+glx> french canadian is not french :) <--- naaa... French from France is not french anymore! WE are the only ones who are still talking pure french!
13:33:06 <glx> Belugas: outdated french ;)
13:33:17 <Belugas> i expected that one ;)
13:33:59 <glx> but the way you translate some english terms is better than our way
13:38:52 <Belugas> well... maybe because i do it almost daily ...
13:39:19 <Belugas> and i'm surrouded by english speaking guys all day long!!!!
13:44:09 <Goulp> peter1138: i'm suggesting that "unsigned types in java? haha" whas sent by a script
13:52:53 <Lakie> Rubidium: I don't suppose it's possible to get the .lst file created from a nightly compilation?
13:53:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what's that file supposed to be?
13:53:54 * Rubidium likes Eddi|zuHause reading my mind :)
13:54:15 <Lakie> Its a file from the TTDPatch compilation which lists the address of all the functions and such.
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14:04:35 <Lakie> My own compilations are always different to the nightlies' address which means I can't directly use the locations from crash logs. :)
14:05:37 <Lakie> It'd be the equivlent of the C++ debugger adding anywhere between 10 - 200 lines to the location it shows in the source.
14:05:51 <dihedral> oh - i need to test the information in the shares :-P
14:06:10 <glx> I guess it should bo possible to keep it like .pdb
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15:35:23 <Belugas> # of my BIG BLACK BOOTS!
15:38:15 <norbert79> Belugas: You smoked what? :)
15:38:55 <Belugas> How To Destroy Angels
15:39:11 <Belugas> formed by trend Reznor and his wife and another guy
15:39:31 <Belugas> did i mentionned it's FREEEEEEEE/
15:47:30 <dihedral> company->cur_economy.company_value <- shame, i thought that would have valuable data, turns out it's not as useful as i thought
15:48:18 <dihedral> only thing thats constantly updated in cur_economy is delivered_cargo
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16:14:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20813 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Fix: make the waypoint viewport keep centered around the waypoint when resizing the window (Krille)
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16:29:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20814 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange [FS#3835]: make waypoint default names work like depots, stations and vehicles (Krille)
16:31:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20815 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Revert (r20814): wrong patch at wrong time...
16:32:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20816 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange [FS#3835]: make waypoint default names work like depots, stations and vehicles (Krille)
16:33:03 <dihedral> i thought we were only joking yesterday when mentioning pay / commit
16:47:49 <Rubidium> Lakie: if the compile farm is lief it'll add the .lsts in the next runs (assuming stuff's committed to svn)
16:49:06 <Rubidium> and otherwise it'll fail horribly :)
16:49:52 <dihedral> Rubidium, you have a hint on getting the current company value?
16:52:07 <dihedral> that uses old_economy[0]
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16:55:23 <dihedral> which does not change for a quarter
16:57:28 <dihedral> and cur_economy holds hardly any data :-P
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17:02:14 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: I like the 904
17:02:44 <glx> we probably could do the same with some of bjarni's code ;)
17:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: i believe that's the rating, not an entry number ;)
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17:12:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that better be a möbius strip ;)
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17:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> // I don't know why I need this, but it stops the people being upside-down
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17:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause> typical example of someone not understanding coordinate transformations properly
17:19:57 <Belugas> and 227 is a pissing one too :)
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17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20817 /trunk/src/lang/ (slovenian.txt traditional_chinese.txt):
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 3 changes by josesun
17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovenian - 1 changes by ntadej
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19:22:34 <Rubidium> good news! There's a MiniIN server running...
19:23:24 <Rubidium> and it's only a binary from 2006
19:23:41 <planetmaker> does it have _any_ feature current OpenTTD has not?
19:24:15 <planetmaker> the "more bugs" feature, I assume ;-)
19:24:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the subsidiaries patch
19:24:25 <__ln__> are there new features in OpenTTD since 2006?
19:24:53 <Eddi|zuHause> plus a few bits and pieces that are "never going to get included"
19:25:59 <planetmaker> it's not Bernhard ;-)
19:26:00 <Rubidium> oh, it's 0.5.0-RC2 with extras
19:26:52 <planetmaker> Rubidium: what actually determines the order of the non-release builds? I though the revision number. But... then the miniIN should come last
19:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't that the final version of miniin?
19:27:21 <frosch123> i thought the last one was some 8xxx
19:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody wanted to commit my bridge-patch-port to the miniin back then...
19:32:42 <Rubidium> yeah, "we" kept it alive for too long :)
19:33:14 * Rubidium is amazed how long chillcore is keeping up
19:34:49 * SpComb barely lasted half a year
19:35:29 <planetmaker> half the patches I had in my clientPP are obsolete as somewhat in trunk ;-)
19:35:34 <Rubidium> "my" patchpacks usually some 10 months, but then I'm not syncing them with trunk :)
19:37:26 <__ln__> do "we" have a tram stop sign yet in the trunk?
19:38:18 <planetmaker> but there are no separate ones for the different rail types either
19:38:24 <planetmaker> Nor for heli and planes
19:38:54 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be...
19:41:55 <__ln__> if we look at signs and images from real life, airports and helicopter fields do not have well-established signs in the first place.
19:43:19 <frosch123> you should not talk about realism when planning a trip to canada
19:45:00 <__ln__> it's in distant enough future
19:54:59 <VVG> where is a good place to set global _current_station for a vehicle list, so that it is set before sorter functions are called and reset after they are done?
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19:56:57 <Rubidium> yeah, how real is it when someone plans a trip to Canada
19:59:17 <VVG> or may be there is a way to reset the current sorttype? problem i have is that atm sorters are called before var they use is set :(. It's ok on first opening of a window, but things get broken after sorttype is cached.
20:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like you are doing things wrong...
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20:09:46 <guru3_> poster for LAN @ my university...
20:09:59 *** guru3_ is now known as guru3
20:10:27 <guru3> i am tickled by the icon in the middle of the left side...
20:11:11 <guru3> no idea... there's a vector graphic for it iirc
20:13:37 <Rubidium> something to do with that saying that if the big are fighting the small take the price?
20:15:28 <guru3> no idea, but i'm totally going if i can to play some openttd
20:16:07 * avdg wonders how many people would like to play openttd there :p
20:16:20 <guru3> well i think last time we got maybe 4 or 5 people playing
20:16:29 <Rubidium> 12 hours of lanparty isn't enough
20:16:31 <guru3> for i dunno, a 2 hour game
20:16:47 <guru3> out of like 8 or 10 people... it's amazing
20:16:54 <guru3> i've been gradually sneaking it up on them
20:17:11 <avdg> yeah openttd takes quickly few days if you get the flu
20:17:37 <Rubidium> then you don't have the flu :)
20:17:39 <__ln__> wtf a lanparty that ends at 9pm
20:17:43 <Alberth> I'd say so, 2 hours is nothing :)
20:17:55 <guru3> that's how the room bookings work here, our union isn't open 24/7
20:18:00 <Rubidium> if you really got the flu then you don't fancy playing on your computer
20:18:01 <__ln__> shouldn't it be more like 9pm to 9am?
20:18:03 <guru3> and there just aren't any other rooms possible
20:18:21 <guru3> we have short but frequent lans.. once a month or two
20:19:45 * Rubidium didn't have trouble getting into university at any time of the day
20:21:04 <Terkhen> nobody can enter mine after 10 pm... in fridays and before holidays the employees even make us leave earlier
20:21:28 <planetmaker> It all is different, if you have a key ;-)
20:21:49 <guru3> there's only one true 24 hour building for students that i'm aware of
20:22:01 <Terkhen> I don't think you would keep it for long if you used the key to organize lan parties :P
20:22:01 <guru3> and even then you can book rooms only durin daylight hours
20:22:22 <planetmaker> Terkhen: that depends... I know people who do so at our university ;-)
20:22:55 <guru3> wouldn't work here... we've got security guards
20:23:00 <KingJ> Our uni lans run until security decide to kick us out for the night, about 1-2 AM
20:23:26 <Rubidium> being kicked out... how stupid :)
20:23:33 <Rubidium> we just have a nice talk with them around 03:00
20:23:39 <Rubidium> and with the cleaners around 06:00
20:23:46 <KingJ> They then lock the room to ensure that no one attempts to nick the PCs ;)
20:23:54 <Rubidium> offer them a cup of coffee
20:24:23 <Terkhen> heh, things are very different here :)
20:25:21 <planetmaker> Well. Sure, those people who lan-party have a key. So the front door will be locked
20:25:57 * Terkhen should stop thinking about lan parties until he finishes his exams
20:25:58 <planetmaker> and they rather bring computers than steal some. They just use the network infrastructure present
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20:28:37 <VVG> found and fixed the problem. turns out, there are two places where sorting is called
20:36:26 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> It all is different, if you have a key ;-) <-- a simple key doesn't usually shut down the alarm system
20:36:40 <planetmaker> there is no alarm system
20:36:53 <planetmaker> as it's perfectly ok for us to work 24/7
20:37:01 * Eddi|zuHause takes note of that :p
20:37:31 <planetmaker> it needs permission though. If one really stays late, the security will drop by and ask for the night or weekend work permit
20:37:48 <planetmaker> but all people in our institute have that permission
20:37:49 <Terkhen> there isn't one in mine either, except at the places with expensive stuff
20:38:09 <planetmaker> they're separately locked again
20:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i think here the building entrances are alarm-secured from 22PM to 6AM, and the computer pools etc. are alarm secured separately
20:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... 22 is always PM :p
20:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, to my knowledge, you can't stay in the building over night
20:43:03 <__ln__> over here certain places are 24/7, e.g. some computer rooms, if you have a keycard
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21:13:42 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20818 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Fix [FS#3791]: make the crash-on-saveload message clearer and more correct
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21:37:52 <Mek2> hello, just out of curiosity: how long does 1 game year take in real time? :)
21:39:27 <Mek2> and does it also have leap years? :D
21:41:11 * Rubidium wonders how often these things have been asked
21:41:51 * Rubidium also wonders how hard it is to figure out whether it has leap years or not
21:54:12 <Rubidium> Wolf01: if you code it
21:55:16 <Wolf01> I like especially the separable road-train system :D
21:55:32 <Wolf01> and the ability of loading trains on ships
21:58:16 <GT> Is the number of palettes, or better, the number of palette reshuffles fixed, or can it be expanded by newgrfs?
21:58:48 <Rubidium> it's fixed, though differs between DOS and Windows, and climate (IIRC)
21:59:03 <Ammler> as soon as a patch adds strings (languages), it needs to make complete compile, right?
21:59:11 <GT> Ok, that's what I wanted to hear
21:59:30 <Rubidium> Ammler: only those that include table/strings.h
22:01:41 <KingJ> Wolf01: Launching a train by rocket, interesting. An associated disaster could be that the rocket misses and crashes at a random location
22:04:42 <GT> Current situation wrt to recolour is kind of awkward for 32bpp: the colour to remap to is first indirected to an index for every pixel that needs recolour, and then the index indirects to an 32bpp palette. So I think it's better to create couple of 32bpp tables (that could even contain the HSL values to prevent those expensive calculations), and index into them with the .m value directly, using the palette as the table to use
22:06:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20819 /trunk/src/saveload/ (6 files): -Fix [FS#3714]: be a bit more "lenient" w.r.t. invalid savegames; don't crash on saveload related NOT_REACHEDs, just show the user an error that the savegame is corrupted
22:13:58 <Rubidium> GT: how are you supposed to determine whether something is animated or not? So what pixels to update?
22:15:09 * Rubidium doesn't have much of a clue about the 32bpp blitter though
22:21:02 <GT> the way animation currently works, wont work well for 32bpp, so up til now I limited myself to the 32bpp-optimized blitter. Animation would require mpng, or some kind of proprietary png-shuffle. Replacing pixels of a certain colour like in 8bpp won't work very well imho.
22:21:48 <Rubidium> there's also apng, but that won't work either as that's more or less firefox only
22:22:02 <Rubidium> i.e. not in the official png and as such unuseable
22:22:23 <Eddi|zuHause> there are two ways for animation currently. one is pixel/palette animation, which is done in the default grfs e.g. for lighthouses or airports. the other is sprite-animation which is done with newgrfs, e.g. for houses, trains or industries
22:22:28 <GT> right, and the standard are not fixed, i think, though some libs are available
22:23:36 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. for a train engine you can display different sprites depending on the movement counter
22:24:05 <GT> Is that also available for e.g. the water tiles?
22:24:16 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
22:29:42 <Rubidium> water tiles use pixel animation exclusively
22:30:22 <GT> I know, and as such not interesting for 32bpp.
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22:30:57 <Rubidium> libmng looks more or less dead
22:31:32 <Rubidium> libapng isn't packaged in Debian yet (or at least no packages with apng in their name or description)
22:32:27 <GT> I did some research on the subject, but so far I could not find an opensource, and more or less stable lib for png animation.
22:32:49 <Rubidium> apng is Mozilla's bodged/hacked libpng
22:33:05 <Rubidium> and apparantly not released as stand-alone library
22:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood why animated png wasn't considered right from the start. as animated gifs were pretty wide spread, and png was supposed to be a gif replacement
22:33:55 <GT> and mng as supported by png seems to be rather heavy-weight
22:36:37 <GT> so I started thinking about something like put a couple of png in a file and update the offsets on a game timer, for OTTD it does not need to be fancier than that, but that was just a brainwave, I think there's lots of other work for 32bpp to be done that is more specific.
22:37:20 <Rubidium> that'd break the original graphics though
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22:37:45 <GT> right, so I left it alone for now, and limited to non-animated
22:38:31 <beyre83> i have one sujestion for ottd, you should change the Talk key to C then if you had (building stuff, such as rail, road) it wouldnt think you wanna place a tunnel rather than chat
22:38:35 <beyre83> i find that annoying :p
22:39:25 <Rubidium> you can change that in trunk (the keybinding that is)
22:39:44 <beyre83> mmm but that requires programming.....
22:40:19 <Rubidium> if changing a configuration setting is programming, then yes... it requires programming
22:40:50 <beyre83> why didnt you say terminal
22:40:57 <beyre83> to me trunk = SVN TRUNK
22:41:25 <Rubidium> yes, you need the openttd from svn's trunk
22:43:47 <beyre83> i learnt one new thing
22:44:03 <beyre83> "passanger transport from city centers to train stations"
22:44:31 <beyre83> esp when you cant always get trainstations right in the center
22:47:44 <beyre83> whats the button to send money again
22:58:02 <dihedral> beyre83, a nightly would do for that matter
22:58:10 <dihedral> besides - try hitting the return key!
22:59:00 <dihedral> anyways - off to bed here
23:10:19 <Ammler> is it possible to modify a AI while it is loaded in openttd?
23:10:27 <Ammler> e.g. for debug possibilites
23:11:15 <Ammler> Yexo: or why is the need to build a disadvantage?
23:11:47 <Yexo> you can edit it while openttd is running, the changes won't show up until you reload the AI
23:12:00 <Ammler> so quite much like newgrfs
23:12:03 <Yexo> so edit, reload savegame is very common
23:12:23 <Yexo> yes, but for newgrfs you need to do "edit, compile, reload", for AIs "edit, reload" is sufficient
23:12:38 <Yexo> having to build just adds an extra unnecesary step to the process
23:13:00 <Ammler> well, you need to change the version everytime
23:13:30 <Ammler> if not, then you also don't need to build everytime, only if the version changes :-)
23:13:43 <Ammler> and then it might be easier
23:14:05 <Yexo> you don't need to change the version every time
23:14:13 <Yexo> but info.nut always needs a valid version
23:14:17 <Ammler> then you also don't need to build everytime
23:14:30 <Yexo> depends on how the makefile works, how it substitutes the version
23:14:39 <Ammler> as long as the version is the only dependency
23:15:35 <Ammler> sed "s/{VERSION}/r`hg id -n`/" info.nut
23:16:54 <Ammler> make should do that, no tar, that should be another target
23:17:49 <Ammler> hg parent --template="{rev}" is better, else you get a +
23:19:14 <Yexo> that still adds the step to run make every time
23:19:37 <Ammler> only when you change the info.nut
23:19:49 <Ammler> or info.pnut or whatever :-)
23:21:41 <Ammler> you could run make as commit hook
23:21:54 <Rubidium> would it be that much of a problem to run make once? After that you don't need to run make anymore for just testing purposes; you'll just get a possibly to low version number, but that shouldn't matter as you shouldn't have newer version of your AI anyways
23:22:46 <Rubidium> then on make bundle or something you (unconditionally?) rebuild info.nut so nightlies and releases get the right version and as side effect the version for you is changed as well
23:23:17 <Rubidium> you *might* even consider using awk to replace the version inline, i.e. without needing a pnfo or something
23:23:39 <Ammler> but that might not work with windwos
23:25:38 <Ammler> well, if the version is the only thing, we could do that also with bash, no need for make
23:25:51 <Ammler> i mean sed the info.nut and the taring...
23:26:28 <Yexo> I was considering splitting the version, so the high word becomes the version at it is now and the low word becomes the hg revision
23:26:41 <Yexo> make fills the hg revision, the high word is set manually
23:26:42 <Rubidium> that's also an option
23:27:10 <Rubidium> 26 << 16 | $hgversion will probably work fine :)
23:27:12 <Yexo> during development it doesn't matter if the hg revision is set correctly as long as the manually set version is newer than another copy
23:28:12 <Rubidium> although such versions will look pretty bad in OpenTTD itself
23:28:21 <Rubidium> (it's showing that version, right?)
23:29:10 <Yexo> we could add GetLongVersion() returning a string as optional function in info.nut
23:38:25 <Ammler> don't you use the svn rev for the ai version now?
23:39:03 <Yexo> currently I only use a manually set version
23:39:10 <Yexo> which I only change with every release
23:39:30 <Yexo> that's why I never upload development versions, because their version conflicts with the next release version
23:40:49 <Ammler> what is MinVersionToLoad for?
23:41:53 <Yexo> if it returns 23, all savegames saved by an AI with the same shortname and version 23 to GetVersion() will be loadable
23:43:59 <Ammler> oh, the the GRFID for newgrfs
23:44:26 <Yexo> no, the shortname can be compared to the grfid
23:44:33 <Yexo> the version can be compared to the action14 version
23:45:02 <Ammler> but you change that minversion, when the ai gets incompatible, don't you?
23:47:29 <Yexo> I have version 1 which stores A, now I create version 2 which stores B but can also load A, so MinVersion still returns 1
23:48:00 <Yexo> so although the data from 2 is incompatible with 1 the minversion can still be 1 because their is compatibility for the old data buildin
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23:53:18 <Ammler> ah, got it, so AIs are always downwards compatbile
continue to next day ⏵
