IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-09-15
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00:04:58 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
00:07:12 <Ammler> Rubidium: how do you make that change, by patching the Makefile?
00:07:28 <Ammler> maybe you could submit that to upstream :-)
00:08:22 <Rubidium> Ammler: sorry, but I've got no idea what you're talking about
00:08:36 <Ammler> [01:37] <Ammler> opengfx-0.3.0.zip - opengfx-0.3.0-all.zip
00:08:49 <Rubidium> yes... that's just a simple rename of the zip
00:10:04 <Rubidium> as in `curl <url> -o opengfx-0.3.0-all.zip`. Not sure whether that belongs in the Makefile
00:13:10 <Ammler> oh, there is also a any
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09:57:24 <beyre83> question i take it fish 0.6.1 (isnt publicly availibull content)
09:57:31 <beyre83> from the central server
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09:58:52 <Ammler> but only, if you have save requiring it, and only with gui
09:59:36 <beyre83> well i tried to join a map and got newgrf mismatch meaning it wont let me join
09:59:41 <beyre83> so i goto download content
09:59:48 <beyre83> and it wont let me select it
10:00:18 <beyre83> says this content is unknown and cant be downloaded in ottd
10:00:23 <beyre83> yes its a public server
10:04:31 <Ammler> downloading old FISH works here
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10:04:43 <beyre83> mmm look at the screenshot
10:05:15 <beyre83> it wont let me turn the redlight to a greenlight to download
10:05:22 <Ammler> beyre83: are you able to downloaded something in general?
10:05:22 <beyre83> as you can see in the screenshot
10:05:30 <beyre83> i downloaded all the other content
10:08:10 <beyre83> it just seems to not let me download thoes 3 things
10:09:06 <beyre83> allows me to tick the content to download
10:09:16 <Rubidium> the only reason I can think of is that it failed to connect to the content server
10:09:28 <beyre83> well i was on a server then left
10:09:32 <Rubidium> in which case it should give an error after a minute or so
10:09:33 <beyre83> then tryed to join that one
10:09:39 <beyre83> and it would not let me click it
10:09:44 <beyre83> just said not availibull
10:09:54 <beyre83> and i can now click the grfs to download
10:10:35 <dihedral> or it's a grf merely claiming to be FISH 0.6.1
10:10:54 <beyre83> well a restart fixed the issue
10:10:57 <Rubidium> nah, it works (tm) for me
10:11:05 <beyre83> Rubidium: it worked for me
10:11:10 <beyre83> after restarting ottd
10:11:20 <beyre83> wouldnt not let me tick it befor restarting
10:11:33 <Rubidium> dihedral: no, as I said it likely failed to connect to the content server
10:11:49 <beyre83> there is no issue with my connection
10:11:55 <Rubidium> and as long as it doesn't know the content server has it, it will be in that state where it says that it can't download it from the content server
10:11:55 <dihedral> Rubidium, and it does not try to reconnect?
10:12:20 <beyre83> well there was no issue with my connection tho
10:12:20 <Rubidium> dihedral: no, but that's not really the point here
10:12:53 <Rubidium> if it fails to connect it is only known when the OS tells OpenTTD that, which can take a hell of a lot of time (minute or more)
10:13:09 <beyre83> the point is i found this issue, after i quit a multiplayer
10:13:14 <beyre83> and tryed to join a new map
10:13:29 <beyre83> there was no issue at all with my dsl connection to the internet
10:14:40 <dihedral> Rubidium, is that information then in turn displayed to the user?
10:15:03 <Rubidium> but as I said, that can take a minute (or more)
10:15:14 <beyre83> i was waiting over a minuit
10:15:28 <beyre83> and that was the screenshot befor i restarted ottd
10:15:29 <Rubidium> especially if the connection was already established and the request has been sent
10:15:32 <beyre83> so thats not the issue
10:16:38 <Rubidium> beyre83: you can't say for certain that your connection to the content server went without a problem; there's too many chains in the internet that can make it break while lots of other internet related stuff still works
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10:59:28 <beyre83> mmm Rubidium you everheard of Draytek routers?
10:59:41 <beyre83> there bussiness class routers
11:00:12 <Rubidium> ever heard of Cisco routers?
11:00:53 <Rubidium> but yes, I've heard of draytek (actually used them for a while)
11:03:51 <Rubidium> in any case, what does business class router have to do with the connection problem?
11:04:34 <dihedral> beyre83, some people think wireless networks are stable too :-P
11:17:07 <beyre83> well the better the router the more stable your connection is
11:17:28 <Rubidium> so with a Cisco router your connection is flawless?
11:18:02 <beyre83> but theres less chances of it droping
11:18:04 <Rubidium> no, but you make it sound like it
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11:18:22 <beyre83> the better the router the more stable your connection is
11:18:27 <beyre83> due it not crashing etc
11:19:30 <beyre83> my connetion hasnt droped for 6days
11:19:37 <beyre83> since i restarted the router
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11:20:59 <Rubidium> on which of the 7 levels of connection wasn't it dropped?
11:21:33 <beyre83> all it tells me is Wan uptime 6days
11:21:38 <beyre83> meaning internet access
11:22:08 <Rubidium> e.g. I could put my laptop (turned on) in my bag, go into the elevator, cycle home and when I opened it my ssh connection was still there
11:22:19 <dihedral> network_client.cpp:275 DEF_CLIENT_SEND_COMMAND_PARAM(PACKET_CLIENT_CHAT)(NetworkAction action, DestType type, int dest, const char *msg, int64 data)
11:22:25 <beyre83> well i am not on about network card
11:22:30 <beyre83> i am on about WAN UPTIME
11:22:30 <dihedral> is there a reason for that being int dest and not ClientID ?
11:22:44 <Rubidium> given that the distance was more than 1 kilometer, I doubt that I kept connected to the same wireless access point
11:22:51 <Rubidium> but my connection was still up
11:22:55 <dihedral> beyre83, that is very isp dependent
11:23:54 <dihedral> Rubidium, would it be worth canging "int dest" to "ClientID dest"?
11:25:39 <LunarWolf> I did a test model for OpenTTD, but the board did not see even though it is imposed correctly: /
11:26:41 <Rubidium> beyre83: the SSH connection was to somewhere 150 kilometer away
11:27:07 <Rubidium> even so, I usually stay connected to my server (again 150 kilometer away) for weeks at a time
11:27:43 <dihedral> that is very odd, Rubidium, i'd thought some routers in between would not be able to handle WAN uptime like that very well :-P
11:27:55 <Rubidium> and the last time I had problems with a connection it was due to a broken Cisco router
11:27:59 <dihedral> and i am talking about WAN here
11:28:44 <LunarWolf> someone has prepared the scene with lights to OpenTTD, because the wiki is something wrong I wanted to 3dsmax
11:28:46 <Rubidium> although... maybe the routers OpenTTD's main server connects to aren't seen as WAN routers. After all, they server is in the same building as the router
11:29:52 <LunarWolf> pops up some warning when opening, something about the lights on
11:30:13 <dihedral> Rubidium, perhaps they are connected via wireless lan :-P
11:30:32 <dihedral> would save a lot of money, for not needing all those cables in the DC
11:31:09 <Rubidium> and IIRC the routers that (broken) router connects to are in a fairly close building, so... that's probably not WAN either
11:31:50 <dihedral> nah - does not count
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11:32:28 <LunarWolf> OMG what is this 3dsmax crudely felled
11:32:48 <LunarWolf> there's nothing like Maya 2011: P
11:35:13 <LunarWolf> I tried this set up, the scene in maya 2011, I tried this set up, the scene in maya 2011
11:36:03 <LunarWolf> as I can throw it to your forum
11:38:08 <LunarWolf> Damn KIS 2011, who did such a shoddy program to protect
11:44:38 <dihedral> Rubidium, how about i show you a first patch today?
11:45:05 <LunarWolf> and the updates are so sick and long from that time you can catch the virus, well I have only a test version, because I would not give a penny for a scrap
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13:16:22 <Rubidium> it smells of a DOS attack or something
13:16:49 <avdg> well, I had a lot of 500 errors while editing the wiki
13:17:41 <Rubidium> for some reason the webserver can't open more files or something
13:17:51 <Rubidium> and there are almost 2000 connections
13:18:24 <Rubidium> from ~400 different locations
13:18:38 <glx> that's too much, or we have many people wanting 1.0.4 at the same time :)
13:19:28 <Rubidium> bandwidth usage is ~10 times larger than average daily max (excluding the spike from pushing to the mirrors)
13:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> did we get slashdotted or something?
13:20:09 * planetmaker wonders why one would DDOS openttd.org
13:20:37 <avdg> hmm.. I was checking my taskmanager, only downloaded 64 mb
13:21:16 <planetmaker> avdg: one person doesn't make a notable influence, I guess ;-)
13:21:39 <avdg> well 2000 files open from 400 locations isn't logic if they all want the 1.0.4 binaries
13:24:35 <Rubidium> oh, OpenTTD's on reddit
13:26:45 <avdg> is the load reduced yet?
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13:33:39 <TrueBrain> hurray, finally reached the limits of nginx within this setup :)
13:35:00 <Rubidium> concurrent connections and such
13:36:08 <TrueBrain> every system has a max of file descriptors
13:36:12 <TrueBrain> it managed to reach that :p
13:39:01 <dihedral> OpenTTD is not very familiar with the term 'week' ....
13:39:10 <dihedral> it knows of years, months, and days.....
13:39:43 <Rubidium> yay for 25 MiB of error log a minute
13:40:30 <Nite> ... mabee its time for asking to get welcome on the welcome coop server again ;) ...
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13:41:12 <TrueBrain> right ... this is about as far as Django can go :D
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13:47:51 <dihedral> how would i introduce a weekly loop in openttd?
13:48:05 <dihedral> (without using _cur_days % 7
13:49:21 <dihedral> it would not be very precise
13:50:36 <avdg> -_- that serverproblem is annoying
13:53:11 <norbert79> Ehm, what if it's just slashdotted? 1.0.4 is very fresh
13:53:22 <norbert79> I also have updated all my binaries
13:54:17 <norbert79> Oh, website is almost working well again
13:55:21 <planetmaker> what is wrong with current day, dihedral ?
13:55:30 <planetmaker> (assuming that it is 0-based)
13:55:42 <planetmaker> and not reset yearly
13:56:56 <dihedral> i was under the impression current day was reset monthly
13:56:56 <norbert79> avdg: I see... It also riddles me why anyone would like to harm the site. Maybe someone is jelous? :)
13:58:13 <Rubidium> norbert79: it's "free" advertisement gone wrong
13:59:15 <norbert79> Rubidium: Doubt so, re-reading the logs from this chat... Having tousands of Wiki edit requests within minutes is just not like having advertised for free beers :)
13:59:54 <Rubidium> it's about the *whole* website, not just wiki.openttd.org
14:00:27 <Rubidium> they're hitting www.openttd.org at such a speed that something can't handle it and starts to spread disaster all around
14:00:43 <glx> opendune.org is a victim too :)
14:01:23 <TrueBrain> right ... added a few more django instances to increase performance, increased allowed connections with factor 10, and boosted a few other things (started to use threading for primary httpd, normally this is absolutely not needed)
14:01:34 <norbert79> glx: Hah, I didn't it exists too... Now I want to see it, but the website is down... Damn :)
14:01:35 <TrueBrain> the only one acting up atm is tracd, which can't handle the load to 'readme.txt'
14:02:13 <TrueBrain> approaching 1500 open connections
14:03:44 <norbert79> ok, have to go, later guys!
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14:04:11 <TrueBrain> roughly 10k hits per minute
14:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> we should start charging money ;)
14:07:45 <Rubidium> you mean do one of those fundraisers?
14:09:08 <TrueBrain> right ... 10k connections per minute, and we use 30 MiB RAM on the primary httpd :D
14:10:14 * Rubidium wonders if orudge would fancy a fundraiser when that many people are hitting openttd.org :)
14:10:56 <fonsinchen> where are all those hits coming from?
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14:17:44 <planetmaker> Rubidium: why not?
14:18:33 <Rubidium> because he's going to get a load of paypal transactions
14:18:59 * TrueBrain is happy his own written balancer is still up and serving :D
14:19:11 <planetmaker> Rubidium: would that hurt?
14:19:27 <planetmaker> it's incoming money after all
14:34:00 <TrueBrain> about 20 downloads per minute .. right ...
14:38:44 <TrueBrain> 44k referrers from reddit :p
14:39:26 * avdg doesn't know anything about reddit
14:39:39 <Ammler> I know nobody using reddit :-)
14:39:57 <Ammler> TB, where are those from?
14:40:21 <Terkhen> there is a similar page in spanish, it also tends to collapse webs
14:41:14 <avdg> hmm.. reddit == spam or reddit == a lot of users? (believes in option 1)
14:41:54 <TrueBrain> Ammler: from reddit, that I just said ...
14:42:00 <Terkhen> the second option, but the results are the same in both options
14:42:02 <TrueBrain> avdg: lot of easy-click users
14:42:15 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: with the minor difference these users actual download the game :p
14:42:36 <Ammler> TrueBrain: I meant, where are the users from, is that a global thing?
14:43:01 <Terkhen> should we get prepared for an increased amount of newbie questions? :P
14:43:24 <TrueBrain> I am really surprised how easy it was to get this stable again ...
14:44:16 <Terkhen> "I'd point you to the wiki, but you reddit guys nearly broke it and we don't want you playing with it again"
14:44:17 <TrueBrain> 20 mbit/s ... right ...
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14:56:25 <thomas001> hi, i my trains tend to leave their predefined route and go to some side track to a depot. or they go to a depot past a waypoint on their route just to go to that waypoint (again) after having visited the depot. what can i do to stop trains visiting depots as they like?
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14:57:49 <robotboy> thomas001, use goto depot orders
14:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause> put "service at depot" [goto->ctrl+click] orders in your train's schedule
14:58:24 <thomas001> then the train will visit that depot every time?
14:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause> then they won't ever gp to any other depots anymore
14:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause> thomas001: no, with "service" instead of "go to", it will skip it when not needed
14:59:26 <TrueBrain> our load is just 0.5 ... lol :D
14:59:30 <TrueBrain> I WANT MORE HITS! :D
14:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also use conditional orders, e.g. if you need additional waypoints to find the depot
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15:02:24 <TrueBrain> 99% of our traffic is http :D
15:03:16 <thomas001> what does [at the end] mean in the schedule?
15:03:57 <Terkhen> thomas001: if the train will stop at the end, at the middle or at the beginning of the station platform
15:04:15 <thomas001> why is that important?
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15:10:00 <orudge> Rubidium: you can do a fundraiser if you want, we still have a bit of money in the bank though as it is :p
15:10:13 <orudge> I'd rather try to spend what we already have first, we've got at least another year's hosting or so ;)
15:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have too much money, start paying people that work on it ;)
15:20:51 <dihedral> nah - that's horrible
15:21:15 <dihedral> could see certain forum posts coming: i wrote that patch, i want my share... :-P
15:22:05 <Eddi|zuHause> 1$/commited line to the patch author
15:22:32 <avdg> :p patch/revert/patch/revert
15:22:43 <Terkhen> a lot of single line documentation patches
15:23:06 <Ammler> well, or donate it to WWF in the name of the committer
15:23:34 <dihedral> my latest patch has 640 lines - so far :-P
15:24:04 <dihedral> 640 lines starting with a + that is
15:24:39 <avdg> :p also tags would be funny (giant copy)
15:32:44 <TrueBrain> well, at least I know I will get the most money
15:32:50 <TrueBrain> good idea Eddi|zuHause, lets do that!
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15:43:20 <beyre83> mmmmm (still getting delinks)
15:44:02 <beyre83> yea "connection lost"
15:44:12 <dihedral> are you on a wireless connection by any chance?
15:44:17 <beyre83> i have to refresh after about 5mins i can reconnect
15:44:41 <dihedral> how do you want to know it's not your internet connection
15:44:44 <beyre83> if i get disconnected from that server
15:44:50 <dihedral> it's sure not anything openttd can do
15:44:57 <beyre83> i can see another one imediately
15:45:51 <beyre83> it seems to be there server prehaps
15:45:59 <beyre83> because if i get disconnected
15:46:05 <beyre83> i can join any other imediately
15:46:46 <dihedral> beyre83, then i suggest you try another server, if it happens there again, it's highly unlikely its the servers fault
15:47:04 <dihedral> unless of course you are sending malicious packets and killing the server
15:47:57 <beyre83> i dont wanna have to start again
15:48:15 <dihedral> you want to find out what the issue is or just moan about?
15:48:43 <Eddi|zuHause> could be a serverside ip-blacklist hitting you
15:49:00 <beyre83> and was fine when i first connected
15:49:40 <dihedral> then there is nothing this channel can do in order to fix the network issues you are experiencing on your end of the WAN :-D
15:50:05 <dihedral> talk to your isp, perhaps they are doing something
15:52:15 * Rubidium wonders whether beyre83 has a clue how networks actually work
15:52:39 <Rubidium> especially the internet
15:53:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the internets are a series of tubes!
15:53:46 <Rubidium> dihedral: no, that's a Wireless Area Network
15:54:52 <Nite> actually wide area network ...
15:55:37 <dihedral> and LAN stands for Lunar Area Network? :-P
15:55:38 <Rubidium> because it was claimed today that 150 km was still a LAN
15:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd define it over the number of hops in the physical layer...
15:56:36 <Nite> ok its also wireless ... but wlan is more clear ...
15:57:15 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: *cough*
15:57:58 <__ln__> how does the american with a dutch name define it?
15:58:16 <Rubidium> so one could argue that the connection NASA - Voyager 1 is a LAN; there is no hop in the physical layer
15:58:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so? :)
16:00:19 <Rubidium> that makes a LAN OpenTTD game somewhat laggy I'd guess
16:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so? :)
16:01:01 <Rubidium> it's time for dinner!
16:01:49 <Nite> hmm; lan wan ban - unban ... ;)
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16:05:04 <Eddi|zuHause> [not entirely sure what that means :p]
16:06:14 <Nite> strangely sometimes wehn i try to join it just tells me connection lost sometimes banned ...
16:07:38 * planetmaker wonders ... how shall I forget or assume it will be not annoying when someone constantly goes around like 'unban, unban, unban me...'
16:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: defining it on the IP layer might also be useful... but that kinda limits the usage of protocols...
16:09:22 <Nite> well planetmaker, what else would someone do who is b****d ... and dont wants to be
16:12:24 <Eddi|zuHause> they have pills for that...
16:14:07 <planetmaker> Nite: whatabout having some patience, letting the matter rest, possibly enjoying the last nice autumn days and coming back later?
16:14:11 <Nite> like for quit smoking ...
16:14:23 <planetmaker> later as in... next month?
16:14:27 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: autumn hasn't even started
16:14:45 <planetmaker> astronomically. meteorologically yes
16:15:37 <planetmaker> meteorologists start their seasons by the 1st of the months
16:16:26 <Eddi|zuHause> one would think that meteorologists base their stuff on the weather patterns...
16:16:42 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes. But that way it's way easier to average
16:16:49 <planetmaker> or gather statistics
16:16:54 <planetmaker> when you can sum just a month
16:17:26 <planetmaker> it's more practical this way than waiting for the sun to cross an invisible plane
16:17:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but that means the meteorological summer is 2 days shorter than the astronomical one
16:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, 21st june to 23rd september
16:18:49 <Eddi|zuHause> vs. 1st june to 1st september
16:19:52 <Nite> well at least no i know exactly ... ;p
16:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "this content was voted to be potentially insulting or inappropriate"...
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16:38:30 *** [alt]buster is now known as [com]buster
16:44:13 <Nite> actually this burning test is not complete without the sanskrit ...
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16:59:04 <dihedral> is there a better way than _company_pool[company_id] to get company from CompanyID?
17:00:12 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
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17:02:45 <SmatZ> dihedral: Company::Get(company_id)
17:03:25 <SmatZ> coincidence? I think not!
17:05:46 *** Gremnon has joined #openttd
17:09:25 <dihedral> it's a pain finding all the right places where a function needs to be called :-P
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17:59:58 <frosch123> lazy translators :p
18:00:21 <Rubidium> at least... now win9x won't fail!
18:00:42 <Rubidium> no, no commits since yesterday's nightly
18:00:58 <frosch123> oh, so we will get complains about "where's the nightly?"
18:01:17 <frosch123> today never happened
18:01:36 <Rubidium> too busy trying to keep the website alive
18:01:53 <avdg> are there still problems with it?
18:03:00 *** ajmiles has joined #openttd
18:03:40 <frosch123> hmm, exactly 1000 downloads of 1.0.4 yesterday
18:12:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
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18:18:24 <Alberth> bummer, busy reading tt-forums, gets it closed down :(
18:19:27 * Rubidium hopes orudge's aware of that (i.e. doing that)
18:22:14 <Alberth> Most likely he is: "The forum is currently being upgraded...."
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18:27:16 <pyrotechnick> are there any plans for a webgl port of openttd?
18:27:56 <Rubidium> even a normal gl port attempt(s?) has been a failure
18:28:06 <pyrotechnick> is it not rendered with opengl?
18:28:13 <avdg> I like to see it, but /me !== js expert
18:28:30 <planetmaker> pyrotechnick: nope
18:28:43 <planetmaker> nope. But honestly
18:28:57 <Alberth> pyrotechnick: a game from 1985, what do you think?
18:29:01 <planetmaker> there's no rendering
18:29:13 <pyrotechnick> i know there's no 3d per-se
18:29:21 <pyrotechnick> but i expected it to be opengl none-the-less
18:29:32 <Rubidium> Alberth: 1985 is a bit too much :)
18:29:32 <pyrotechnick> alot of 2d is done in ogl
18:29:50 <Alberth> off by 10 years, who is counting :)
18:29:53 <Sacro> and no, it'd be blitted not rendered
18:30:09 <pyrotechnick> so it's just sdl surfaces or something?
18:30:50 <pyrotechnick> yeah they're called surfaces in sdl
18:31:13 <planetmaker> Not sure it's the same...
18:31:54 <pyrotechnick> anyway i am working on similar game in webgl
18:32:07 <pyrotechnick> i thought i'd send out the feelers on here for any thoughts/suggestons/help
18:32:32 <pyrotechnick> more than anything i need some assistance getting a community going, i think that's one of the best features of openttd
18:32:48 <Rubidium> but doesn't webgl mean javascript and such?
18:33:13 <pyrotechnick> javascript isn't such a bad language, it's very misunderstood
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18:33:18 <Rubidium> oh, then it's likely never going to happen
18:33:29 <Rubidium> as even ports to C# are failing horribly
18:33:30 <pyrotechnick> why is that Rubidium
18:33:48 <pyrotechnick> Rubidium: i'm not sure it has anything to do with language or environments
18:34:12 <Rubidium> it have everything to do with the amount of effort required to get something close to OpenTTD
18:34:43 <Alberth> not necessarily close to openttd, but something addictive
18:35:13 <Rubidium> and you're rewriting it from scratch, it's not what I'd call a port
18:35:15 <Alberth> first priority imho is to have something playable
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18:35:37 <pyrotechnick> 'anyway i am working on similar game in webgl'
18:35:39 <pyrotechnick> i never said port
18:35:52 <pyrotechnick> it's more sim-cityish than openttd atm
18:36:02 <Rubidium> 20:27 < pyrotechnick> are there any plans for a webgl port of openttd?
18:36:09 <Rubidium> you definitely said port
18:36:13 <planetmaker> you might join the p1k project or how it's called
18:36:21 <pyrotechnick> Rubidium: yes i was asking about a port
18:36:25 <pyrotechnick> but then i said im writing a similar game
18:36:27 <Gremnon> planetmaker: p1sim you mean
18:36:28 <pyrotechnick> two different concepts
18:36:36 <planetmaker> Gremnon: probably
18:36:55 <Gremnon> personally I don't think p1sim is going to work still
18:36:55 <Alberth> micropolis (formerly simcity) is also developing a web-based thing
18:37:02 <planetmaker> wooot? Forums gone?!
18:37:18 <pyrotechnick> micropolis have one but it's written in activex
18:37:53 <pyrotechnick> yeah that is cool
18:38:21 <Alberth> planetmaker: yes, we have to live one evening without :(
18:38:49 <pyrotechnick> Alberth: that's essentially what we're aiming for first up
18:38:55 <pyrotechnick> Alberth: getting a an alpha
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18:40:44 <pyrotechnick> Rubidium: what makes you think it cannot be done in javascript?
18:40:50 <pyrotechnick> Rubidium: performance?
18:41:04 <avdg> pyrotechnick: I think it won't be a port
18:41:10 <Alberth> plain open gl at the machine it self already failed
18:41:13 <avdg> it should be something totaly diffrend
18:41:14 <Rubidium> I was talking about a port of OpenTTD in javascript
18:41:30 <Gremnon> is that even possible?
18:41:39 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
18:41:43 <pyrotechnick> Gremnon: openttd in javascript?
18:42:02 <Rubidium> Gremnon: not with network compatability I fear :)
18:42:16 <pyrotechnick> Gremnon: not without a proxy
18:42:23 <pyrotechnick> Gremnon: there are websockets coming to html
18:42:50 <pyrotechnick> Gremnon: but these must open connections with a http server
18:42:50 <avdg> it will not be a port and support for newgrf idk
18:43:10 <pyrotechnick> avdg: i think you could support the graphics files
18:43:14 <Gremnon> JS, I don't think could handle the complexity
18:43:23 <pyrotechnick> Gremnon: i disagree
18:43:32 <pyrotechnick> Gremnon: but i'm open for specific reasons as to why
18:43:42 <pyrotechnick> perhaps not on the hardware we are used to today
18:43:42 <Gremnon> pyrotechnick: if you can show me a working proof of concept, I'll admit it's possible
18:43:54 <pyrotechnick> Gremnon: again, that's what we're aiming for
18:44:18 <pyrotechnick> essentially it's not really going to be that close to openttd
18:44:20 <pyrotechnick> since it will be 3d
18:44:27 <pyrotechnick> but it will be in the same spirit
18:44:35 <Gremnon> perhaps Transport Empire is what you should look at then?
18:44:41 <avdg> that will require a lot of graphics
18:44:45 <Gremnon> afaik it's meant to be OTTD-like, but in 3d
18:45:45 <pyrotechnick> there was a 3d playsation version done in 1997
18:46:41 <Gremnon> I doubt you could find a version of it now though
18:47:13 <pyrotechnick> yeah i only have youtube videos
18:47:15 <pyrotechnick> that's enough ^w^
18:47:53 <pyrotechnick> transport empire is pretty dead
18:48:15 <Gremnon> then be the one to revive it - it would seem to be the start of exactly what you want to do, at least
18:48:21 <Gremnon> if not provide some insights into where to start
18:48:32 <Gremnon> all it needs is people to start working on it again
18:48:46 <pyrotechnick> ogre is pretty hideous
18:48:49 <planetmaker> pyrotechnick: if people actually would programme it, it'd live
18:48:51 <pyrotechnick> i used it for our final project at uni
18:48:57 <planetmaker> ogre is ... bloatedly huge
18:49:04 <pyrotechnick> yeah it's quite filtjhy
18:49:11 <pyrotechnick> i mean it did the job
18:49:28 <pyrotechnick> but it felt like a frankenstein of engines trying to do everything and not doing anything particularly well
18:49:50 <planetmaker> you were faster than you promised, orudge :-) Nice
18:50:24 <orudge> planetmaker: I didn't realise there was an update message there
18:50:26 <orudge> that was from last time :p
18:50:30 <orudge> but I couldn't easily edit it once I'd started
18:51:04 <pyrotechnick> does anyone have an idea of budgets in openttd
18:51:18 <pyrotechnick> memory/processing budgets?
18:51:32 <planetmaker> orudge: it's not like the time estimate mattered :-)
18:51:41 <pyrotechnick> basically, in a typical game
18:51:50 <pyrotechnick> what % of processing goes towards ai
18:52:04 <pyrotechnick> what goes towards composition etc
18:52:13 <dihedral> orudge, would / do you host java based webapps related to openttd
18:52:13 <planetmaker> depends upon the # of AI. And they can have their own threads
18:52:17 <Gremnon> orudge: it's as montgomery scott once said - 'Always give an estimate longer than the actual time you need - then when you complete it early, you seem like a miracle worker'
18:52:33 <Rubidium> pyrotechnick: that depends on a enormous number of factors; can't say much useful about that
18:52:56 <Rubidium> I can make the GUI take 90+%, I can make the AI take 90+% but I can also make either of them use less than 1%
18:53:29 <Alberth> #AIs = 0 and you're done :)
18:53:52 <Rubidium> Alberth: or use wrightai :)
18:54:38 <Alberth> or Rondje, as long as you don't build road :)
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19:00:53 <pyrotechnick> Sacro, planetmaker: it looks like SDL is backed by 3d apis
19:01:48 <pyrotechnick> it's closer to opengl than alot of people would expect
19:03:14 <frosch123> pyrotechnick: most expensive are things like ship pathfinding, processing of millions of plain ground tiles (if you can you should make them stateless), accellerating/breaking of around 30000 vehicles, production of cargos from lots of small instances (houses), running lots of ais, drawing millions of things when zoomed out. and unfortunatelly a lot of that stuff cannot be parallelized
19:03:20 <planetmaker> SDL is only one of the many video front-ends of OpenTTD
19:03:31 <Gremnon> wasn't there an attempt at an OpenGL blitter once? and didn't it fail to work?
19:04:15 <pyrotechnick> frosch123: thankyou very much
19:05:25 <frosch123> what most miss about ottd is, that your average game has a limit of around 200 units per player and rather small maps
19:05:33 <peter1138> SDL isn't close to opengl, heh
19:05:46 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: SDL is often backed by opengl
19:05:47 <frosch123> in ottd there are huge maps, and 200 units are nothing
19:05:56 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: on osx it is
19:06:01 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: on windows it can be
19:06:12 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: and on linux it's x11 which can be also
19:06:17 <peter1138> mainstream sdl doesn't have an opengl backend
19:06:33 <orudge> [13:52:15] <dihedral> orudge, would / do you host java based webapps related to openttd <-- I don't. Potentially I could if there was demand.
19:06:35 <Gremnon> in other words: it's an optional extra to sdl that doesn't appear to be offical
19:07:06 <peter1138> you can use opengl with sdl, but that's not the same as sdl using opengl
19:07:23 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: i understand
19:07:34 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: on osx it's backed by quartz which is backed by opengl
19:07:52 <peter1138> on osx it's apparently buggy and doesn't work
19:08:04 <Gremnon> I thought that was osx itself
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19:08:15 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: i've played openttd on mac for years
19:08:29 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: haven't really noticed anything
19:08:42 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: perhaps it doesn't use the bugged features
19:08:49 <peter1138> then you'll notice the performance problems, and the fact we deprecated and finally removed the port
19:09:01 <peter1138> openttd on osx doesn't use sdl
19:09:08 <peter1138> (because it doesn't work)
19:09:47 <peter1138> what's needed for webgl anyway?
19:10:17 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: a nightly version of an a-grade browser
19:10:35 * andythenorth doesn't notice any bugs
19:10:52 <andythenorth> maybe they look like features to me :P
19:10:54 <pyrotechnick> andythenorth: me neither, i didn't realise it wasn't sdl though
19:11:11 <andythenorth> tell me a colour for brickworks
19:11:13 <pyrotechnick> what api does it use when compiled on mac?
19:11:39 <orudge> peter1138: it would appear that SDL 1.2.14 features a significant number of Snow Leopard changes. I've no idea if that would be any better or not for OpenTTD though (and doesn't really fix the other OS X issues). Maybe I'll try later if I can be bothered. Or maybe somebody else already has.
19:11:59 <peter1138> pyrotechnick, ahh, very bleeding edge :)
19:12:06 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: yes it is
19:12:16 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: it will stabilise at the end of this year
19:12:37 <pyrotechnick> peter1138: it's enabled on certain mobile devices alreadt
19:12:55 <pyrotechnick> namely Maemo Browser on n900
19:13:09 <peter1138> and yes, we use cocoa on osx
19:13:15 <planetmaker> [21:11] <pyrotechnick> doubt it <-- but it is cocoa by default
19:13:22 <pyrotechnick> that's alot of work for one platform
19:13:33 <pyrotechnick> sdl was that bad?
19:13:46 <peter1138> we have a win32 gdi backend too, heh
19:13:49 <planetmaker> it's plainly unusable
19:14:32 <__ln__> besides the Windows port doesn't use SDL either afaik.
19:15:04 * andythenorth is grateful for work done on cocoa implementation
19:15:13 <planetmaker> and it's not the only SLD-OSX issue
19:15:14 <peter1138> __ln__, you can compile it with the right incantation though, and it does then work :)
19:15:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I like the colour issue
19:15:26 <andythenorth> it would make my life easier as a grf author :P
19:15:34 <andythenorth> smaller palette == easier choices
19:15:56 <pyrotechnick> it looks like the monitor cable is slightly loose
19:16:01 <peter1138> that just looks like an RGB order mismatch
19:16:06 * Alberth senses a special OpenGFX edition :p
19:16:50 <peter1138> on the other hand, if it's all sdl, then sdl was at fault
19:17:07 <planetmaker> pyrotechnick: hard to make a screenshot of that then ;-)
19:19:40 <pyrotechnick> andythenorth: do you use homebrew?
19:20:02 <pyrotechnick> it's a package manager for mac
19:20:18 <pyrotechnick> i wrote a recipe for openttd one day but it's lost :(
19:21:06 * dihedral wonders what Rubidium would say if dih managed to complete the patch by tomorrow ^^
19:23:16 <planetmaker> there's only one way to find out
19:24:23 <pyrotechnick> so you need a mac developer?
19:24:46 <Gremnon> one that is willing to take on and fix all the OSX bugs actively
19:24:51 <Gremnon> somethign like that, I believe
19:25:07 <pyrotechnick> i would love to see osx support for openttd again
19:25:20 <Gremnon> you're welcome to lend a hand by fixing bugs
19:26:17 <__ln__> And to be a "mac developer" in this context, it is not enough that someone manages to install Xcode Tools and compile OpenTTD himself.
19:26:57 <__ln__> ... that's my impression of the skill level of some that have kind of volunteered for it on the forum.
19:27:57 <pyrotechnick> __ln__: hehe, i can only imagine, at least they're mac users though, they can't be that bad...
19:28:16 <glx> <Gremnon> you're welcome to lend a hand by fixing bugs <-- and implement missing features like automatic font selection
19:28:41 <planetmaker> that's not particularily missing
19:29:28 <planetmaker> as it's working for
19:29:51 <planetmaker> at least my case. Easily between the Euroean, Korean, Arabic, Chines, Russian...
19:29:54 <michi_cc> But input for CJK characters for example is missing.
19:29:56 <Gremnon> actually, on fonts I wouldn't mind seeing a patch I believe orudge wrote some time ago that allowed one to pick fonts from a list of system-wide installed fonts
19:30:01 <planetmaker> yep. That is missing
19:30:16 <orudge> Gremnon: that was a long, long time ago, yes
19:30:21 <orudge> but I do still have it kicking around
19:30:25 <orudge> it'd probably need a complete rewrite now
19:30:37 <orudge> OpenTTD's pretty much unrecognisable now compared to what it was then
19:31:49 <planetmaker> but afaik it's the only example of 'missing feature'
19:32:02 <Gremnon> well true, it'd need to be redone, but it would be nice for the user to be able to pick the font they find more readable or useful
19:32:14 <planetmaker> that's a general request
19:33:16 <pyrotechnick> Terkhen: this post is depressing :(
19:34:30 <Terkhen> It would be nice to change that :)
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19:37:07 * Gremnon wonders if there's any decent arguement for getting a mac
19:37:35 <pyrotechnick> Gremnon: to dev openttd
19:37:45 <Gremnon> besides that. I mean for more general use
19:37:57 <Gremnon> which in my case means mostly onliney kind of stuff
19:37:57 <Rubidium> Gremnon: bigger threshold for installing and using OpenTTD?
19:38:31 <Gremnon> Rubidium: not until it gets supported, or I manage to wrap my head around enough C++ knowledge to at least assist in fixing the port up a bit
19:38:48 <Rubidium> Gremnon: you'd need obj-c++ as well
19:39:02 <Gremnon> why, what's that used for?
19:39:09 <planetmaker> c++ knowledge, a bit obj-c++. And much more API knowledge
19:39:10 <__ln__> Gremnon: indeed, you need Obj-C knowledge more than C++.
19:39:26 <Rubidium> Gremnon: the great minds at Apple chosen obj-c/obj-c++ for their API
19:39:51 <Rubidium> for extra added fun, gcc is seriously considering dropping obj-c++
19:39:55 <__ln__> Rubidium: their kernel api is C++ however
19:40:24 <pyrotechnick> __ln__: not anymore
19:40:25 <Gremnon> it seems like it's much more useful to make a Linux desktop take on a Mac look'nfeel and just run Linux stuff on it instead of actually getting a Mac and running mac stuff on it....
19:40:32 <planetmaker> from what I read, they don't, Rubidium
19:40:35 <Gremnon> assuming you wanted to make it look like that, that is
19:41:02 <__ln__> Rubidium: that's quite irrelevant, as *Apple's* version of gcc certainly isn't dropping Obj-C++.
19:41:26 <planetmaker> Gremnon: the "works out of a box" is not as much given for linux (or windows) as for a mac
19:42:10 <Gremnon> I find Linux works out of the box just fine for me thank you
19:42:30 <planetmaker> for certain definitions 'out of the box' yes.
19:42:31 <Gremnon> only ever had one issue with it, and that was because Arch upgraded X.org to a version that didn't support the video card's propreitary driver
19:43:02 <pyrotechnick> SDL is a failure?
19:46:04 <Rubidium> planetmaker: they're seriously considering it. And they are shooting down merging objective-c 2.0 without it coming from Apple
19:47:41 <pyrotechnick> xcode 4 is so badass
19:47:46 <pyrotechnick> has anyone else tried it?
19:47:53 <pyrotechnick> i guess not since there's no osx devs
19:47:58 <avdg> but I don't see a lot in it
19:48:03 <pyrotechnick> SFML needs an osx dev aslwell
19:48:10 <Gremnon> I thought there was one, but they're awol or something
19:48:11 <pyrotechnick> avdg: clang is amazing
19:48:18 <planetmaker> pyrotechnick: I won't pay like > 100$US for access to it
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19:48:19 <__ln__> Rubidium: but are we supposed to compile the Mac port with a vanilla GCC, or why does that matter?
19:48:20 <avdg> there are improvements yes
19:48:29 <avdg> but the interface, I don't know
19:48:35 <planetmaker> pyrotechnick: clang is faster than gcc. But less optimizing
19:48:41 <planetmaker> at least for OpenTTD
19:48:51 <pyrotechnick> planetmaker: clang's not a compiler
19:49:02 <pyrotechnick> it's static code analysis
19:49:13 <__ln__> llvm on the other hand is a compiler
19:49:16 <planetmaker> hm... mixed it up with the llvm part ;-)
19:49:28 <pyrotechnick> planetmaker: correct it's less optimising atm
19:49:36 <pyrotechnick> planetmaker: it's ALOT newer though
19:49:53 <pyrotechnick> you need to consider how long gcc's had to incorporate all of the optimisations it has
19:49:56 <avdg> pyrotechnick: I have to see whats better in the real world
19:50:19 <avdg> and I don't have a good view about the c/c++/c# world atm
19:50:53 <planetmaker> avdg: for a quick compile the llvm-gcc is 'better' as it's slightly faster. But for playing big games, use the 'real' gcc ;-)
19:51:01 <planetmaker> gcc_select is your friend
19:52:20 <avdg> because gcc is more optimized and llvm just needs *that* bit more optimizing, right?
19:53:07 <pyrotechnick> they're not exactly in direct competition
19:53:15 <planetmaker> at least with the default configure settings. So probably yes. I'm no compiler-interals specialist by all means
20:17:11 <TrueBrain> how is openttd.org doing guys?
20:17:34 <TrueBrain> I still see a bandwidth spike of 5 times normal .. :p
20:18:15 <TrueBrain> and 'just' 5000 hits per minute .. lol :p
20:18:36 <frosch123> it does badly, no translator was able to login today, and no commits could be made :p
20:19:32 <frosch123> when was the last time with 24 hours of no commits? even no wt3 update? :p
20:19:45 * frosch123 needs something to blame :p
20:19:55 <TrueBrain> well, you could also commit something
20:20:17 <TrueBrain> but so everything still runs smooth .. nice :D
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20:25:20 <__ln__> has the earring bug been fixed yet?
20:25:44 <avdg> how high is the openttd 1.0.4 counter now?
20:27:29 <Rubidium> avdg: you'll know the figure of 00:00 at 07:00 (UTC)
20:29:34 <avdg> oh, k ty for giving such accurate details :)
20:30:06 <__ln__> avdg: when it exceeds infinite, you'll be notified personally
20:32:51 <TrueBrain> avdg: well, we can't be any more accurate
20:33:31 <avdg> bweh, its just data after all, isn't it?
20:34:54 <avdg> that data isn't everything
20:35:08 <TrueBrain> still making no sense at all
20:35:14 <TrueBrain> or was it just a random troll?
20:35:57 <frosch123> avdg: those statistics are faked anyway
20:36:09 <TrueBrain> the cake is a lie after all
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20:37:36 <frosch123> ah, 0.6.3 just passed 250000 yesterday
20:38:01 <Terkhen> someone is still downloading 0.6.3?
20:38:11 <TrueBrain> I have his IP. want to pay him a visit? :p
20:38:16 <TrueBrain> (and no, I don't really have his IP)
20:38:32 <frosch123> Terkhen: a lot more than 0.7.x
20:39:19 <pyrotechnick> ive always wondered this
20:39:35 <pyrotechnick> do you get more cargo if the industry is completely contained within the catchment area
20:39:41 <pyrotechnick> or does only 1 square need to overlap?
20:40:17 <frosch123> the area decides only yes/no, the station rating decides the amount
20:40:47 <pyrotechnick> is it based on the buildings covered?
20:41:06 <frosch123> every building produces/accepts on their own
20:42:41 <Rubidium> a big reason 0.6.3 is downloaded so often is release at 2008-10-01, 0.7.0-beta1 at 2009-02-16
20:42:49 *** [alt]buster has joined #openttd
20:43:36 <frosch123> that does not explain why 0.6.3 is still downloaded more often than 0.7.x
20:43:42 <frosch123> (daily amount, not total)
20:44:00 <SpComb> that's only a four-month lifetime for the 0.6.3 release
20:44:05 <SpComb> well, perhaps beta doesn't cout
20:44:16 <Terkhen> oh, right, the old ai :)
20:44:31 <Terkhen> I still don't get it, though
20:44:32 <frosch123> SpComb: 0.6.3 lived 6 months :) the avarage 1.0 release lasts only 1.5 months
20:45:28 <Rubidium> stupid laptop batteries... only lasting ~2.5 hours when both cores are fully active at max CPU :(
20:47:04 <SpComb> 0.7 dropped the legacy AI?
20:48:48 *** [alt]buster is now known as [com]buster
20:49:02 <frosch123> well, even sirkoz got used to noai :p
20:49:44 <Terkhen> only because of simpleai
20:52:46 <beyre83> i have 2 electric rails, on one i can purchase asiastar
20:52:50 <beyre83> on the other i cannot
20:53:18 <frosch123> then they are likely not both electric :p
20:53:41 <beyre83> they both have the overhead electric look
20:53:57 <frosch123> try convert rail on them to be sure
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20:59:26 <beyre83> mmm seems the station wasnt
20:59:58 <beyre83> as it was a joint sation with a older line
21:02:00 <pyrotechnick> beyre83: PEBKAC error
21:04:14 *** lasershock has joined #openttd
21:10:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20807 /trunk/src/ (toolbar_gui.cpp toolbar_gui.h window.cpp): -Codechange: don't clamp the width of the main toolbar to 640 pixels
21:19:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20808 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/event.mm: -Add [FS#4110]: [OSX] support for input using dead keys (Zydeco)
21:22:13 <Rubidium> did I break OSX compilation?
21:23:48 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
21:26:01 <TrueBrain> how ever much I look at objective C, it is some fucked up syntax
21:38:40 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
21:49:13 <avdg> indeed, there is something broken -_-
21:49:24 <planetmaker> Rubidium: you added at least a warning: /Users/ingo/ottd/trunk/src/video/cocoa/event.mm: In function ‘bool QZ_PollEvent()’:
21:49:26 <planetmaker> /Users/ingo/ottd/trunk/src/video/cocoa/event.mm:563: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned integer expressions
21:49:47 <Rubidium> well tested patch *ONCE* again
21:51:09 <planetmaker> I didn't quite read it. What shall I look ingame for what would break?
21:51:20 <planetmaker> dead keys... like accents?
21:52:08 <Rubidium> after all, it's Mac OS X; a minor change can break everything there
21:52:21 <planetmaker> like for any other system
21:52:36 <Rubidium> for any other system *I* can do tests and such
21:52:58 <Rubidium> hell, I even have a Korean Windows XP installation
21:53:02 * avdg blames hisself for not testing the patch hard enough
21:53:17 <planetmaker> did you test it before, avdg ?
21:53:31 <avdg> yep, but seems I didn't stresstest it hard enough
21:53:34 <planetmaker> if so... how did you then go around that warning?
21:53:36 <Rubidium> but... does s/int/uint/ on that line fix the warning?
21:53:57 <avdg> it seems the signs aren't editable
21:54:17 <avdg> at least, if you include these dead key symbols
21:55:01 <avdg> let me test it, my report isn't done yet :p
21:55:15 <planetmaker> s/int/uint/ silences the warning, yes
21:55:26 <Rubidium> avdg: well, file a bug report then...
21:56:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20809 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/event.mm: -Fix (r20809): as usual with these user provided Mac OS X patches lately... they either fail to compile or spew warnings
21:56:14 <avdg> cause it seems I can't reproduce it anymore
21:56:19 <Rubidium> yay for reinforcing my lack of faith in Mac OS X people writing decent code
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21:59:05 <planetmaker> did a 2nd person test the patch?
21:59:26 <avdg> except the patchwriter himself
22:00:02 *** Progman has joined #openttd
22:01:22 <glx> they often claim their code is desync free
22:01:56 <glx> when a quick review without even testing proves it's false
22:02:57 <avdg> well, thats why we need more osx testers :p
22:03:40 <Rubidium> no, someone we can reasonably trust that it was tested correctly (i.e. an official dev)
22:03:58 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
22:05:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20810 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Merge: documentation updates from 1.0
22:22:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20811 /trunk/docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif: -Fix [FS#4079]: the colour palette file in the docs/ directory was broken
22:43:59 <glx> <@Rubidium> no, someone we can reasonably trust that it was tested correctly (i.e. an official dev) <-- not bjarni :)
22:45:47 <Rubidium> well... there we, usually, didn't have to pick up the pieces
22:46:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20812 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4125]: crash when confirming newgrf changes with the newgrf parameter window open
23:03:19 *** TruePikachu has joined #openttd
23:03:36 <TruePikachu> Yay 1.0.4 - /me will start DL
23:03:55 *** perk111 has joined #openttd
23:38:06 <TruePikachu> Downloaded and installed, will run soon
continue to next day ⏵
