IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-07-22
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00:18:47 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i think none of the entries in the "unofficial mac binaries" thread was ever "thanks this worked"
00:20:48 <ccfreak2k> If the game works, what's their incentive to post?
00:36:48 <Pikka> was that test grf any use to you, Yexo?
00:50:58 <Pikka> also, is there an orudge in the house?
00:57:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there was, like 5 hours ago
00:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> man... compiling is slow...
00:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> some idiot had to go and change source.list...
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04:08:54 <nicfer> has been introduced in nightlies the custom hotkeys feature?
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05:06:06 <roboboy> grr my DOS machine is taking so long to unzip the opentt-useful zip
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05:28:48 <roboboy> hopefuly I can move all the stuf and compile without all the libs
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06:12:07 <roboboy> meh its easy to forget how slow computers were ten years ago
06:12:57 <roboboy> my DOS machine taken over an hour to partly decompress the openttd source
06:27:02 <ccfreak2k> You were using DOS 10 years ago?
06:30:00 <Noldo_> it's almost 15 years since Windows 95
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06:32:48 <fonsinchen> I started using Windows 98 in 1998 and I only did that because I had to use the latest MS Office and it didn't work with DOS.
06:34:43 <fonsinchen> I ditched Windows for Linux at around 2001 because I was so pissed by it ...
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06:40:23 <Terkhen> the first hotkeys commit is 20055
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06:51:08 <nicfer> and is there a GUI to change them?
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07:12:09 <Terkhen> you can only change them by editing the cfg file
07:15:02 * roboboy waits for his DOS machine to finish unziping the OpenTTD source
07:15:59 <Terkhen> oh, I wanted to try that too :)
07:16:35 <roboboy> it's been going for over 2 hours or so
07:16:37 <Terkhen> but my 386 refuses to boot from floppy disks and the existing installation is completely messed up because it suffered my "first experiments"
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07:17:05 <roboboy> this machine came with 98 se on it
07:17:38 <Terkhen> probably it couldn't run OpenTTD anyways, but I wanted to try :/
07:17:46 <roboboy> that disk got moved to a new machine and then died a couple of years ago after we go XP
07:17:49 <dihedral> hehe - made a phone-call with regards to a job offer, was invited for this afternoon :-P
07:17:59 <dihedral> *couch* seems desperate does it not? :-P
07:18:05 <Terkhen> IIRC it had 40 MHz with "Turbo" on
07:18:08 <dihedral> they did not even see my cv :-P
07:18:33 <Terkhen> hmmm... your fame precedes you?
07:18:37 <Noldo> dihedral: what did they know about you?
07:19:02 <roboboy> it might have run. I seem to be the only person to have succesfuly goten OpenTTD to run on real Hardware
07:19:08 <dihedral> that i do php and only need 14 days to quit my current job (i think)
07:19:28 <dihedral> roboboy: what's 'real' hardware?
07:20:22 <dihedral> you get linux to work on those slow boxes too :-P
07:20:27 <Terkhen> if I manage to get DOS working correctly on it I'll look for your advice :)
07:21:10 <Terkhen> yeah, I wanted to try that too, but it does not boot from any floppy
07:21:38 <roboboy> I have MSDOS. I borrowed and never returned some old DOS 4 disks from my school and a friend lent me his DOS 6.X disks
07:21:39 <dihedral> oh - floppy times - they were good :-)
07:22:06 <dihedral> remember installing tie-fighter with like 9 to 11 floppies :-P
07:22:30 <roboboy> bah to Win3.11 on floppies 18 or so of them
07:22:54 <roboboy> I plan on just dumping them to CD
07:23:09 <Terkhen> heh, I still have 40 floppy disks of windows 95
07:23:36 <roboboy> woot to USBDOS for me
07:25:22 <roboboy> ive pulled bits of freedos off their site and dumped them on my machine
07:25:54 <roboboy> its a whole lot more modern
07:27:29 <nicfer> there's no documentation in the wiki about custom hotkeys
07:37:00 <roboboy> where on the wiki is the best place to start writing a draft article that I plan to eventually make public?
07:37:28 <roboboy> I want to start working on an article on compiling for DOS on DOS
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09:00:02 <peter1138> hmm, pthreads use the same process address space, right?
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12:51:24 <Belugas> mister K91, i salute ya
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12:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe "0"s are like "h"s to him ;)
13:00:37 <Wolf01> uhm, I'm glat to see that my patch threads already disappeared from the first page of the dev forum, they might sneak away without being noticed, so I don't need to maintain them
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14:13:41 <DorpsGek> Celestar: fonsinchen was last seen in #openttd 7 hours, 38 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <fonsinchen> I ditched Windows for Linux at around 2001 because I was so pissed by it ...
14:15:48 <Eddi|zuHause> xargs: xargs.c:445: main: Assertion `bc_ctl.arg_max <= (131072-2048)' failed.
14:16:11 <Celestar> you have more than 131k chars in your xargs ?
14:16:27 <Celestar> find / | xargs won|t work >P
14:16:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but it sounds like a completely arbitrary number...
14:17:11 * roboboy needs to work out how to link the openttd required libs under DOS
14:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> and especially, it's an assert, not an error...
14:18:46 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc ln(131072)/ln(2)
14:18:46 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: 'ln' is not a defined function.
14:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc log(131072)/log(2)
14:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know "odd" powers of two beyond 2^16 ;)
14:20:01 <Celestar> so why do I mess up cargodist
14:20:13 <Alberth> roboboy: you only link programs, not libraries
14:20:40 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: you might want to set up static linking
14:21:36 <roboboy> so I need to compile the libs first
14:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause> amyway. being a power of two doesn't mean it's not arbitrary
14:22:04 <Celestar> A-B-C is totally crowded while A-C is underutilized.
14:22:07 <roboboy> only ever compiled using vc before
14:22:16 <Celestar> yet most pax from A-B wanna continue to C
14:23:38 <Alberth> roboboy: usual approach is to compile each source to an object file (.o), then make them into an archive
14:24:27 <Celestar> when not having non-stops, does cargodist take into account the intermediate stops or do you have to put them manually?
14:25:35 <Alberth> there is a large text about why non-stop thingies are bad at the wiki
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14:25:48 <Alberth> I never really understood it
14:26:22 <dail> i've always found "non-stop" very handy when making long routes
14:26:26 <Alberth> but then I also consider it a CD problem to interpret the orders as I have them :)
14:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: no, cargodist does not handle non-non-stop properly
14:30:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why it plops a big warning message if non-stop isn't the default for orders.
14:31:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a genious idea how to solve it
14:31:53 <Celestar> other than inserting virtual orders, nope
14:32:03 <Celestar> which are not displayed then.
14:32:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well, diaplay is a secondary issue ;
14:33:12 <Celestar> any v dyanamically adds orders when it stops at a station
14:33:19 <Celestar> and adds a timer to it
14:33:29 <Celestar> if after a certain time the station is not revisted, drop it
14:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause> time->number of round trips
14:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but, how to handle vehicles without orders?
14:34:50 <Celestar> keep them in the depot?
14:35:24 <Eddi|zuHause> some AIs use vehicles without orders for eye candy, so keeping them in depot would break those
14:35:46 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, what about deleting orders while the vehicle is outside?
14:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> man... multi-company games really need overtaking in drive through road stops
14:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> so often a stupid AI blocks all road traffic in the town by one misplaced station
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14:43:53 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: when modifiying orders, the virtual orders should be removed.
14:45:22 <Celestar> pfft moonlight is 14 MB
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15:01:54 <Ammler> I guess, we have networks with trains without orders
15:02:12 <Ammler> those are routed with logic gates
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15:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that's probably impossible to handle correctly with cargodist
15:07:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: because the passengers must know the next station before boarding the train
15:07:36 <Ammler> I just meant, that AIs aren't the only ones using vehicels without orders
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15:25:37 <Celestar> heading home before the Cbs decide to unload
15:27:22 <peter1138> meh, backporting bits of openttd to C is irritating :)
15:27:29 <peter1138> maybe i should've just used C++, hehhe
15:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could also just program on openttd instead ;)
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15:43:31 <De_Ghosty> trying to cargo dest a city is impossible
15:43:40 <De_Ghosty> it generate so much pax
15:43:47 <De_Ghosty> nothing can carry em off
15:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that is true, that's why the passenger reduction patch was introduced
15:44:25 <SpComb> as a hack until someone comes up with a better solution
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15:48:10 <Eddi|zuHause> ideally, vehicles should have a "normal load" and an "overload" capactity, and if it is overloaded, it should reduce station rating or payment, or something
15:48:36 <Rubidium> and an ICE summer mode?
15:48:56 <Rubidium> where you have to pay 1.5 times what you would've earned + 500 euros?
15:49:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the air conditioning was supposed to work until 32°C
15:49:15 <dihedral> "and the webserver returns php files as html code when I execute wget" <- LOL?
15:49:36 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody could have expected things to get warmer than that!
15:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: i have not really understood that...
15:50:57 <Rubidium> SpComb: no, they just set it for 50°C :)
15:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: have you no news at your place? :p
15:54:18 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe there's better stories than that...
15:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it was a very big story here
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15:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it was not as big as the eurostar in winter story, to be picked up worldwide
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15:57:46 <glx> <dihedral> "and the webserver returns php files as html code when I execute wget" <- LOL? <-- of course, wget request the files like a browser does, so the server do what it should
15:57:47 <Rubidium> although... do ICEs run in the UK?
15:58:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i know that ICE-like trains run in spain and russia
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15:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> eurostar are TGV
16:00:11 <glx> AVE is ICE like IIRC (spain)
16:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i said that
16:00:49 <Rubidium> but given the temperatures in Spain I'd assume they prepared their ACs for 32 C
16:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, DB was not involved in that, i presume ;)
16:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also talk that some should be sold to russia, but i don't know if that was actually done
16:05:57 <Rubidium> well... they both have red in their flags :)
16:07:33 <Eddi|zuHause> pretty much all slavic countries have red/blue/white [in some order] flags
16:09:16 <frosch123> planetmaker: can you please remove some "," and "-" from your last post at fs#3947, and add "." and "\n" instead :)
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16:29:56 <dail> I just made my first patch. Where do i submit it. When building a road or train depot it correctly gives the "Flat land required" or "Land sloped in wrong direction" errors.
16:32:04 <Eoin> is that not already a feature?
16:32:53 <dail> It was on the todo list. It did not report the "Land sloped in wrong direction" error, now it does
16:33:03 <Rubidium> but depots don't require flat land (if building on slopes is enabled)
16:33:29 <dail> But if it is a steep slope the the "Flat land required" error is needed
16:33:50 <Alberth> except sloped land also works
16:34:12 <Rubidium> even then "Flat land required" is incorrect
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16:34:34 <dail> Well, i was just going by what the todo said...
16:34:35 <Rubidium> the land is still sloped incorrectly for what you are about to build
16:34:47 <Rubidium> there's a todo list?
16:35:17 <dail> So it should always report a "land sloped in wrong direction" error??? Yes it is docs. Go to docs.openttd.org and its at the top left
16:35:49 <dail> ITs not really a todo list, it is just anywere in the code there is a @todo param
16:36:16 <nicfer> how do I configure custom keys? (in recent trunk releases)
16:36:38 <Alberth> dail: those @todo's have there been ages, they may have beome obsolete
16:37:18 <Alberth> nicfer: so fix the wiki. I don't know exactly, but you should have a hotkeys.cfg file for them
16:37:27 <dail> ok...so its fine as is then, always reporting a "Flat Land Required" error?
16:38:12 <Alberth> nicfer: or rather, make a new section, since many users still use the current stable
16:38:20 <Rubidium> I think it's a bit more complex
16:38:37 <Rubidium> if building on slopes is disabled: flat land required is needed
16:38:47 <Rubidium> if steep slope: some new error message?
16:39:05 <Rubidium> if incorrectly sloped: land slopes in wrong direction
16:40:06 <Alberth> SpComb isn't that a bit too general?
16:41:26 <Rubidium> although... at other places where steepslope is used it's using land sloped in wrong direction as well
16:41:27 <dail> Rubidium: that makes sense i guess
16:42:59 <dihedral> Rubidium is usually one to be had for sense ^^
16:44:51 <Rubidium> station code needs checking as well and maybe it's possible to unify some of the code
16:46:09 <Rubidium> as they basically have the same rules
16:46:34 <Rubidium> besides being slightly different for "drive through"
16:46:59 <Rubidium> although... adding support for that in the unified function might be something some people will like a lot
16:51:21 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20203 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: some file "headers" were incorrect, including doxygen @file so they wouldn't be picked up by doxygen.
16:53:09 <dail> So is there anywhere where there is an up to date todo list?
16:54:05 <Rubidium> the todo about the depot building functions is still valid
16:54:31 <dail> so should i change it according to your previous explanation then?
16:54:32 <Rubidium> though the todo is incomplete and it is/was not clear from the message alone what was meant
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16:54:54 <Rubidium> dail: yes, and unify it with road/rail station building
16:56:00 <dail> what error for the steep slope? and where should i unify it at? i mean i see that the road and rail depot station have that section of code in common
16:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... by the speed that bug reports come in currently, i can supply a "well tested" patch by tomorrow ;)
16:57:35 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: most chinese are sleeping now
16:58:17 <frosch123> i guess quite a share of humans is just sleeping, and did not notice there is something to test :p
16:58:18 <Rubidium> dail: go for the "land sloped in wrong direction"; it's the most right without causing the need to review all LAND_SLOPED_IN_WRONG_DIRECTION (yet)
16:59:16 <Rubidium> dail: parts of the CheckBuildableTile code is fairly similar to the code used by rail and road depots
16:59:50 <dail> Rubidium: ok. thanks. Sorry for the questions but ive literally spent 30 minutes in the code total
17:02:34 <Eddi|zuHause> dail: ask as many questions as you need... :)
17:03:18 <dail> Thanks. Its great to feel welcome! I hope to be able to contribute alot to the code eventually once i get into it more
17:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and to your original question: if you want to get immediate feedback for an un-finalized patch, you can talk about it here. if you want user-feedback, post it on tt-forums, and if you want developer feedback (for finalized patches), post them on bugs.openttd.org
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17:26:24 <dail> rail_cmd, road_cmd, and station_cmd has code in common for checking tiles. How does a CheckCanBuildDepot() function in station_cmd.cpp sound? Is station_cmd an appropriate place to put it?
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17:28:45 <dail> Alberth: is that a better spot?
17:29:04 <Alberth> for CheckCanBuildDepot(), I think so
17:29:20 <Alberth> but perhaps you want to have a seperate function for common code?
17:30:45 <dail> the function will check land slopes, and if there is a bridge above it...
17:31:24 <Alberth> I think the currently important problem is to get a working prototype, moving code to a better place is relatively easy
17:31:46 <Alberth> ie you could also consider some tile-ish file for the common code.
17:34:45 <Alberth> there are also slope files
17:36:26 <dail> ill stick it in the src/depot_cmd.cpp for now. ill see where else the code is used and see if it needs moved...
17:37:37 <dail> and for clarity, whats the difference in a "station" and "depot" code-wise that is
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17:39:47 <Alberth> station has cargo acceptance/delivery, platforms, length depot is a black hole, has infinite storage for trains, allows selling/buying engines and wagons
17:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should check docs/landscape.html and docs/landscape_grid.html to get an overview about how the tiles are organised
17:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the code is structured similarly
17:43:10 <nicfer> isn't there a shortcut for the 'query' tool?
17:45:19 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20204 /trunk/src/lang/czech.txt:
17:45:19 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by ReisRyos
17:45:23 <nicfer> I mean, the 'info about terrain
17:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, we understood that
17:46:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never checked if it does.
17:49:36 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be keys for every main toolbar buttons... something like F1..F12 and Shift+F1..F12
17:49:55 <Eddi|zuHause> or Ctrl+F1..F12... not sure
17:50:21 <Ammler> and if there are, those might be cusomizeable with hotkeys.cfg
17:55:14 <frosch123> there are no hotkeys for the stuff in the info menu, except screenshots
17:57:14 <Ammler> it is possible to setup keyfunctions without assign a key per default?
17:57:44 <frosch123> yes, was just done yesterday
18:00:25 <nicfer> GUI question: could be removed the 'demolish' button from the road/rail/airport/dock building tools?
18:01:05 <frosch123> you can remove the hotkey for them
18:10:44 <Alberth> you never destroy anything?
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18:54:11 <andythenorth> apparently ETF is still going
18:54:16 <andythenorth> (was suggested for HEQS)
18:57:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: nice green colour :)
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19:21:13 <rasco> hey, i found a bug in cost estimation of landscaping
19:21:48 <rasco> when landscaping more than one tile, the cost estimate is higher than the actual price
19:22:06 <Rubidium> it's almost impossible to make the correct estimate
19:22:20 <rasco> okay i think i understand
19:22:32 <Rubidium> primarily because of (possible) removal of structures using multiple tiles might be counted double
19:23:05 <Rubidium> but the same holds for clearing tiles (I think)
19:23:27 <Rubidium> anyhow, that's why it's called an estimate
19:23:34 <Rubidium> it's an estimate... not the actual amount
19:23:43 <Rubidium> it should always overestimate though
19:23:44 <rasco> clearing estimate seems to be exact
19:25:23 <Rubidium> build a 2 tile bridge (so only the bridge ramps)
19:25:39 <Rubidium> check the estimate for clearing both tiles (i.e. try to clear 2 tiles)
19:25:46 <Rubidium> then check the actual cost
19:27:16 <Frk> somebody can help me for 32bbp graphic ?
19:27:32 <Frk> i search a pack for graph ...
19:28:34 <Rubidium> not sure whether there are much 32bpp graphics people in here
19:28:57 <Rubidium> and I'm assuming you want information related to the "big" 32bpp graphics
19:34:34 <Rubidium> so the "big" 32bpp graphics; I don't have any experience with those
19:35:08 <Rubidium> you are aware that that project isn't something done by the "official" OpenTTD developers, but by some other people that are interested in those graphics?
19:37:49 <Frk> yes ... it s only for test
19:38:16 <Ammler> you might better ask there
19:40:05 <Frk> better pic ... no better game ...
19:45:57 * Terkhen hopes that mingw-get becomes usable soon
19:51:34 * andythenorth resurfaces from the patterns wiki :o
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21:28:19 <rasco> i'd love a feature to share tracks and stations with other companies
21:32:24 <PeterT> rasco: it's called "IS2"
21:35:30 <rasco> taking a look at it right now
21:36:10 <Ammler> I would call it "patch" :-)
21:37:40 <Ammler> would a fork still pull from origin?
21:40:42 <rasco> dunno. will it be merged some day?
21:40:53 <PeterT> maybe when it's fixed up :)
21:46:26 <Ammler> rasco: that is something else, but it is still kinda up2date with trunk
21:51:21 <rasco> oh and i hope for cargodist to be merged too <3
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23:48:04 <rasco> Do cargodist and cargodest essentially do the same thing?
23:48:45 <PeterT> CargoDist because it is updated :)
23:49:07 <PeterT> but who knows - maybe peter1138 or Celestar will update Cargodest ;)
23:49:29 <rasco> the wiki page for cargodest looked better
23:49:56 <rasco> do you have experience with cargodist?
23:50:11 <PeterT> I used to compile weekly builds for win32, so yes
23:50:26 <rasco> is there a way to reduce passenger amounts?
23:50:34 <PeterT> if you look at my tt-f profile, I've posted the most times in the c-dist threade
23:51:00 <PeterT> rasco: check out CargoDist++ (aka "CargoDist with Sprinkles")
23:53:06 <rasco> are there any cargodist servers?
23:53:25 <PeterT> there used to be on at #openttdcoop.dev, but it's not up now
23:53:42 <PeterT> I'm sure if you join there and ping Ammler or planetmaker they can start it back up for you
23:53:48 <PeterT> as long as you propose a map ;)
23:54:59 <rasco> argh how did i apply a patch with git again
23:55:24 <PeterT> ashb is the git guy :)
23:55:35 <PeterT> I'm off to play some vidoe games
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